Keeping up with the Casters (3.5 WIP classes, PEACH)

[Unavenger]

So, I'm making some mundane classes. The chassis of these classes is likely to be quite strong, but the real way that they're going to stand up to T1 casters is having a bunch of interesting abilities. There are a few bases that I'm working on:

1) You don't have to be able to do everything a caster can do, because no given caster can do everything a caster can do either.
2) We're going to assume that the superhuman resilience that almost all high-level characters have is an artefact of hit points being weird and abstract and nonsense, and falling and lava not doing enough damage.
3) Whatever you can do needs to be possible in the real world.
4) You need to remain useful in an otherwise T1 party even at high levels.

With that in mind, I've made a list of abilities that you can see below. The core mechanic involves each ability score granting you a certain type of point that represents your stamina, willpower, or so forth, a little like psionic power points (and, much like power points, you also get some just for having levels) and over the course of the day, you'll use them up as you get tired and worn down emotionally. The stuff in brackets is the time you need to use the ability (Full, Standard, Move, sWift, Immediate, Passive, No action), the ability that the save DC is based on, the skill the opponent opposes you with, the range, and any descriptors (this will be explained more coherently in the actual class, of course). The abilities are gained at the same level as spells or powers of the same level are by the classes that get them fastest.

Noting as I will that combat abilities, even on a mundane character, are two-a-penny, I've so far focused on utility abilities, so don't be surprised if there's not too much in there that lets you fight good. What I want to know is basically whether these abilities are good enough, what other abilities are necessary, and so forth. Mind you, I'm aware that flight and teleportation are things I can't replicate and I suppose that a hippogriff companion or suchlike for flight is going to need to be a thing.

Have a look; tell me what you think:

1st Level:

Breath of Flame (S/Con/15 foot cone, Fire): You can spend X stamina points to breathe flame so long as you have your tool pouch handy. The fire deals Xd6 points of damage to each creature and object in the area, or half that much on a successful reflex save.

Dazing Strike (S/Str/Short, Mind-Affecting): By spending X might points, you attempt to daze a creature by throwing a small object such as a rock (or, if you wish to end them rightly, the pommel of your sword) at them, most likely at their head. If they have X+3 or fewer hit dice and fail a will save, the target is dazed for one round.

Don’t Lose Focus! (I): By spending X might points, you can get a +X bonus on the next strength-based skill check you attempt this round. The same is true of technique and dexterity, stamina and constitution, intellect and intelligence, resolve and wisdom, and psyche and charisma.

Empathic Vision (N/vs Bluff): You can use sense motive to detect a creature’s surface emotions so long as you can see them. (P): You get a +1 bonus on sense motive checks.

Fearsome Display (S/Cha): You can spend X psyche points to cause one creature of X+4 hit dice or fewer to be frightened for 1 round per level. A will save reduces this to shaken for 1 round. (P): You get a +1 bonus to intimidate checks.

Get out of my Head! (P): You are aware whenever you are subject to an effect which would read your thoughts or information about your personality, your alignment, your intentions, or anything about your mental state. (I): You may attempt to resist any effect which this ability detects. If you make this attempt, you pay resolve points equal to twice the spell, power or manoeuvre level of the effect, or equal to the level of the effect if it doesn’t have one, if able. For example, if an effect isn’t a spell, power, manoeuvre or spell-like or psi-like ability, and doesn’t replicate one, you use the class level or hit dice as relevant of the user. If you do, you negate that ability. Note that you don’t know how many resolve points you would have to pay if you don’t have enough, and once you choose to attempt to resist the effect, you can’t choose not to pay if you don’t like the number of resolve points you need to pay.

Hypnotic Suggestion (S/Cha/Short, Mind-Affecting, Language-Dependant): You can spend psyche points to convince someone to do something they were not previously going to attempt to do. You must spend 1 to convince someone to do something they were tempted to do anyway, 3 to convince them to do something that makes reasonable sense, 5 to convince them to do something that could be construed as reasonable, 7 to make them do something with no particular reasoning behind it, 9 to make them do something that is unreasonable in a way you can elide, 11 to do something obviously unreasonable and 13 to do something totally against their nature. You must pay 4 more to affect a creature who doesn’t share a creature type with you. They may take a will save to prevent the suggestion. It’s very difficult (DC = 10 plus save DC) to tell that someone’s under a hypnotic suggestion using sense motive. (P): You get a +1 bonus on diplomacy checks.

Imitation Adept (S/Cha): You can imitate any sound that you’ve heard with a high level of fidelity, and even make the sound appear to come from somewhere else, by paying 1 psyche point. Recognising the duplicity requires a will save. (P): You get a +1 bonus on bluff checks.

Improvisational Ammunition (P): You can use almost anything as a piece of ammunition as long as it’s about the right size and even vaguely the right shape – you can use stones as crossbow bolts, coins as sling bullets, and sticks as arrows.

Jury-Rig (1 minute): You can repair a single point of damage to any object you could craft. (P): You get a +1 bonus to a single craft skill of your choice.

Moment of Focus (S): You can spend 4X+1 might points to gain a +20 bonus on the first X+1 attack rolls you make using strength until the end of your next turn, and those attacks ignore the miss chance granted by concealment. The same is true of technique and dexterity.

Mystic Appraisal (S): You can spend one intellect point to identify the properties of any item you’re holding. If the item is cursed, an appraise check (DC = 10 + the caster level of the item) will reveal that it’s cursed (but not what the curse does) even if the curse isn’t normally revealed by effects which reveal magical properties. Success by 10 points or more reveals the effects of the curse too. (P): You get a +1 bonus on appraise checks.

Paragon Figure (S/Cha/30 ft radius burst centred on you): You can spend 2X-1 psyche points to grant allies within 30 feet a +X morale bonus on attack rolls and on saves against fear effects, or to inflict a -X morale penalty to the same to enemies within 30 feet, who are allowed a will save to resist the effect. The effect lasts 1 round per level.

Powder Storm (S/Dex): You can spend 1 technique point to launch flour, debris or other powdery miscellanea in a 30 foot cone. Anyone in the area must take a reflex save; failure means that they gain no benefit from invisibility for 1 round per level and all creatures have concealment against them if they rely on vision for 1 round. You can instead spend 3 technique points to use the same ability, except that a successful save only negates the concealment effect, not the effect that prevents invisibility from being effective.

Rope Mastery (S): You use your Use Rope skill to manipulate any object with a rope, so long as you can hit it by making a Use Rope check against its AC (treat the rope as having a range increment of 10 feet for this purpose – you can potentially hit anything within the rope’s length). If you hit an object, you can move it anywhere within the area you can hit with the rope so long as it weighs no more than 5 pounds. You can’t perform any action requiring more skill than simply moving something unless you spend a technique point, and even then you’re limited to what’s possible with a rope. (P): You get a +1 bonus on use rope checks.

Stem the Flow (S): You can spend 2X-1 resolve points and make a heal check to restore hit points to an ally within your reach. If you roll 15 or less, you restore X hit points. If you roll more than 15, you restore X hit points for every point by which you beat DC 15. Remember that you must have at least an improvised healer’s kit to make heal checks – you can’t patch someone up without at least a pretence at a bandage! – but your tool pouch is considered to contain enough supplies to improvise. (P): You get a +1 bonus on heal checks.

Think Twice (N): Whenever you roll a knowledge check, after the DM reveals any information you learn as a result, you can spend an intellect point. If you do, roll another knowledge check for the same information. You gain a +4 competence bonus on this knowledge check. (P): You get a +1 bonus to one knowledge skill of your choice.

2nd Level:

Glorious Inspiration (S/Short): You can inspire a creature within range by spending X psyche points. For 1 minute/level, the inspired creature gets a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls and will saves, and also gains Xd4 temporary hit points for that duration. You can inspire yourself!

Hide in Overt Sight (N/vs Spot): You can hide with nothing to hide behind, so long as you’re not being directly observed. It costs 1 technique point per round you attempt this. (P): You get a +2 bonus on hide checks.

Improvisational Lock (1 minute/vs Disable Device): You can create a lock – or at least, a contraption capable of holding a specific portal or container shut – using nothing but wires, scraps of debris, or whatever else is handy, by spending 3 points in any combination of intellect and technique. Short of physically destroying the lock (which is as survival as any normal lock), the DC to open the lock is the result of your craft (locksmithing) check. If it is located such that it is inaccessible to those who are prevented from entry, it cannot be disabled in this way. (P): You get a +2 bonus on craft (locksmithing) checks.

Instinctive Search (P): You can notice secret doors and traps without having to take actions to search for them. You can find traps the way that a rogue does. You get a +2 bonus on search checks.

Net Mastery (N/Dex): Whenever you hit with a net, you can spend 3 technique points. If you do, the target must take a reflex save. On a failure, the target is not only entangled, but stuck completely in place. Whether they pass or fail, the concentration DC to cast a spell and the, the escape artist DC to escape are both 25. (P): You can fold a net with no action, can use a net on a creature within 2 size categories of you, and get a +2 bonus to attack rolls with a net.

Read Thoughts (S/vs Bluff): By spending 3 resolve points, you can attempt a sense motive check to read a creature’s surface thoughts. (P): You get a +2 bonus on sense motive checks.

Second Wind (I): By spending X stamina points, you can regain X hit points immediately.

Shield of Honour (N): By spending 3 stamina points, you can change the target of an attack to you, so long as you're a valid target for that attack, you're within 10 feet of the attack's original target, and you and the original target are not flanking the person making the attack.

Shimmer Sight (S/vs Hide): By spending 3 resolve points, you can attempt to spot invisible creatures at no penalty (but they still have enough concealment to attempt to hide). If you do, you can see them well enough to attack them as though they didn’t have concealment. (P): You get a +2 bonus on spot checks.

Therapeutic Training (1 Minute/Touch): By spending 2X+1 resolve points, you can heal X ability damage to any ability score with a successful heal check, DC 20. The resolve points are not spent if the check is failed. (P): You get a +2 bonus to heal checks.

3rd Level:

Alacrity (I): By spending 5 stamina points, you can move as an immediate action.

Anticipatory Meditation (1 minute): By spending 5 points in any combination of intellect and resolve, you discern whether an action is likely to have positive or negative consequences, and a rough picture of what those consequences might be. (P): You gain a +3 bonus on knowledge (history) checks.

Crippling Strike (S/Str): By spending 5 might points, you can make an attack which scars an opponent for life, unless they are healed sufficiently. The effects can be varied, but can include a -6 penalty to any ability score, the loss of a sense, the staggered condition, or other effects by DM discretion. The target can avoid this with a fortitude save, and it can be healed with effects such as heal or regeneration, as well as spells relevant to the specific condition caused (such as remove blindness/deafness).

Declaration in Steel (S/Str/Long, 20 ft radius burst): By spending X might points, so long as you have your tool pouch handy, you can launch a hail of sharp objects at an area in range. Each creature in the area takes Xd6 points of slashing and piercing damage (reflex half).

Expert Forager (10 minutes): By spending 5 resolve points, you can forage for enough food and water to sustain a number of humans equal to a survival check result. (P): You get a +3 bonus on survival checks.

Flash Powder (S/Dex/30 foot cone): By spending 5 technique points, if you have your tool pouch handy, you can throw a cone of powder which blinds creatures for one round unless they pass a fortitude save and confuses them for one round unless they pass a will save. If they fail both saves, they are blinded for one round and then confused for one round.

Sermon (S/30 foot emanation centred on you): By spending 4X+1 psyche points, you begin a sermon which grants a +X bonus on all d20 rolls to allies in the area and a -X penalty to all d20 rolls to enemies in the area. Naturally, the sermon continues until you shut up, whether voluntarily or otherwise.

Smoke Bomb (S/Int/Medium, 20 ft radius burst): By spending 5 intellect points, if you have your tool pouch handy, you can throw a bomb which causes a cloud of thick, nauseating smoke to appear. Creatures cannot see through the smoke more than 5 feet, and even anything within 5 feet has concealment. Creatures in the smoke must take a fortitude save each round or be nauseated in that round. (P): You get a +3 bonus to craft (alchemy) checks.

Spellsplinter Manoeuvre (I): Whenever you see a creature attempting to cast a spell, manifest a power, or use a spell-like or psi-like ability, you can spend 5 points in any combination of might and technique to make an attack against that creature with any weapon if they are in range to attack them with that weapon. You can combine this with an attack of opportunity if you are entitled to one, and can decide whether or not to attempt the spellsplinter manoeuvre after seeing the result of the attack of opportunity. (P): You get a +3 bonus to attack and damage rolls against creatures who are attempting to cast a spell, manifest a power, or use a spell-like or psi-like ability.

4th Level:

Blazing Trail (S/Int/Short): By spending X intellect points, so long as you have your tool pouch handy, you can splash flaming oil across X 5-foot squares in range. A creature in one of the squares when you throw the oil initially is allowed a reflex save to dodge into an adjacent square, though by burning adjacent squares you may be able to prevent them escaping the effect entirely in this way. A creature who passes through the flames on their turn or starts their turn there takes 2d6 points of damage plus 1 per 2 levels; the flames burn out in 1 round per level.

Interrupted Cadence (I): By spending 7 points in any combination of technique, stamina and intellect, you can take an extra turn immediately. Then skip your next turn after that one.

Means of Production (P): You can craft five times as fast as normal, and get a +5 bonus to a craft skill of your choice.

Momentum Surge (I): By spending 7 points in any combination of might, technique and resolve, you gain the ability to bypass any effect which would restrict your movement and actions for one minute. You can also move uninhibited underwater while under this effect. (P): You gain a +4 bonus on escape artist checks.

Reinvigourate (1 minute/Touch): By spending 4X+3 resolve points, you can heal X negative levels with a successful heal check, DC 30. The resolve points are not spent if the check is failed. (P): You get a +4 bonus to heal checks.

Ye Mighty And Despair (S/Cha/30 ft radius burst centred on you): You can spend 7 psyche points to frighten nearby enemies. Enemies in the area are frightened for 1 round/level unless they pass a will save. They can also attempt a new will save each round after the first in which they would be frightened to end the effect. A creature who at any point passes the will save is shaken during the next round and then the effect ends. (P): You get a +4 bonus on intimidate checks.

5th Level:

Back from the Brink (1 Minute/Touch): You can spend X resolve points and make a heal check, DC 40, to bring a dead creature back to life - the resolve points are not spent if the check is failed. This is subject to some harsh restrictions: although the creature has the dead condition, it must be conceivable that they are still alive (someone who bled out, was bludgeoned in the head, or was roasted by a dragon’s fire is fine. Someone who was carved up, had their head caved in or was burned at the stake is not) and they must have “died” in the last X rounds from when you begin attempting to save them. (P): You get a +5 bonus to heal checks.

Eyes that See (P): You can take a will save to disbelieve any illusion just by looking at it, even if it never or only sometimes allows one. You gain a +5 bonus on will disbelief saves.

Navigator’s Instinct (S): You can spend 9 points in any combination of intellect and resolve to work out the most direct way to travel to a location of your choice, assuming you have the first clue where you are. (P): You get a +5 bonus to knowledge (geography) and survival checks.

Vicious End (S/Str or Dex): You can spend 9 points in any combination of might and technique to kill an enemy outright with an attack: a fortitude save (DC depends on the same ability score as the attack roll would if you were making one) prevents them from dying. The attack automatically hits, and is automatically a critical hit even if they resist the death effect.

6th Level:

Lead the Charge! (F): You can spend X points in any combination of might and stamina to charge while also entitling any number of allies within a 60 ft radius hemispherical burst pointed away from the direction of the charge centred on your initial location to make a charge without needing to use any actions or affecting their initiative count. These charges must bring the charger closer to your end location than they started. Each creature who hits with their charge attack gets a +X bonus to the damage roll. (P): You get a +6 bonus to the attack roll for an attack at the end of a charge.

7th Level:

Shadow Act (N): You can spend 2X+1 technique points to allow X allies who are attempting to be stealthy with you to use your hide and move silently check results instead of your own, and benefit from abilities which allow you to hide in unusual circumstances as though they had them too. (P): You get a +7 bonus on hide and move silently checks.

Sound Shadows (P): You have blindsight out to 30 feet as long as you can hear.

8th Level:

Empty Mind (P): You are immune to hostile mind-affecting abilities and hostile divination or clairsentience abilities.

I Bid You Stand! (S/Long): By spending 3X psyche points, you can inspire all allies within range. Each ally gets a +X bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls, their armour class, all skill checks, all saving throws and all ability checks, and Xd6 temporary hit points, for the duration of the encounter. The effect ends early if you are rendered helpless.

9th Level:

Hyper Surge (W): Once per encounter, by spending 17 points in any combination of technique, stamina and resolve, you can take two extra turns after this one.

Sixth Sense (P): You can’t be surprised and get a +9 bonus on initiative checks and reflex saves.

[nonsi]

3) Whatever you can do needs to be possible in the real world.


It's within reason to compromise on seemingly possible or almost possible starting at 6th level, and stretch the limits with level progression.

[noob]

The abilities are gained at the same level as spells or powers of the same level are by the classes that get them fastest.

So ninth level abilities at level 9.
you can with an ur priest build get level 9 spells at level 9 by having 9 levels in ur priest(needs retraining)

[Unavenger]

It's within reason to compromise on seemingly possible or almost possible starting at 6th level, and stretch the limits with level progression.

"This is the aesthetic I'm going for..."
"That's a bad aesthetic, go for this one instead."

See how that's not massively helpful?


So ninth level abilities at level 9.
you can with an ur priest build get level 9 spells at level 9 by having 9 levels in ur priest(needs retraining)

Apart from the fact that I'm pretty sure that's not how retraining works, that's so obviously not what I meant.

I'd like some constructive criticism, if that wasn't clear.

[nonsi]

"This is the aesthetic I'm going for..."
"That's a bad aesthetic, go for this one instead."

See how that's not massively helpful?


"Whatever you can do needs to be possible in the real world" is an air tight solution for guaranteeing that noncasters could never play in the same sandbox as fullcasters.
When the party mage can summon solars and you can cleave, that's not really a fair competition.

The important part about noncasters is that their set of ability would seem credible within the laws of physics . . . . . for someone at their level of awesomeness.
And yes, it can be done w/o making them seem like members in the Justice League or MCU on one hand and still be meaningfully contributive in a party that has fullcasters. It's a tough challenge, but not an impossible one.
Example 1: Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18777407&postcount=11)
Example 2: Rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18777412&postcount=12)
Both are convincingly "mundane" on one hand (as in they don't break suspension of disbelief regarding what you'd consider "withing reason" for those classes) and effective on the other. That doesn't mean that they have to be confined only to things that some humans actually managed to pull off IRL.

[Gallowglass]

So, is the idea that the character can use any ability in the catalog if they have the points for it at any time or do they have to pick X number of new abilities each level and/or have to prepare a set batch of abilities at the beginning of the day?

Basically is your spellcasting ability-using mundane a prepared mundane, a spontaneous mundane or a fixed list mundane?

First thing I would note is that this makes the mundane even more MAD than they are now. For the t1 casters, they always are SAD, allowing them to have one high score and spend their WBL improving that score in order to grow in power. With this system, the user will have to improve raise multiple attributes to unlock the higher level powers. An expensive and self-limiting proposition.

Also, I would argue that starting your description with "whatever you can do needs to be possible in the real world" when your first ability is BREATHING FIRE kind of self-contradicts. I assume you are imagining the carnival fire-breather or something.

[noob]

Making a scaling speed which depends on the actual speed at which the casters gains spells at your table might make sense.
If you are at a table where the caster is an elven generalist domain wizard which cast a ninth level spell at level 1 then you feel quite bad if you are not flinging your level 9 mundane powers around too.

[Unavenger]

"Whatever you can do needs to be possible in the real world" is an air tight solution for guaranteeing that noncasters could never play in the same sandbox as fullcasters.
When the party mage can summon solars and you can cleave, that's not really a fair competition.

The important part about noncasters is that their set of ability would seem credible within the laws of physics . . . . . for someone at their level of awesomeness.
And yes, it can be done w/o making them seem like members in the Justice League or MCU on one hand and still be meaningfully contributive in a party that has fullcasters. It's a tough challenge, but not an impossible one.
Example 1: Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18777407&postcount=11)
Example 2: Rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18777412&postcount=12)
Both are convincingly "mundane" on one hand (as in they don't break suspension of disbelief regarding what you'd consider "withing reason" for those classes) and effective on the other. That doesn't mean that they have to be confined only to things that some humans actually managed to pull off IRL.

Okay so you're basically invoking the idea of "People in the real world are universally crap, here have a plug for my own homebrew." No, stop it. Help me with the thing I'm actually trying to do, please.


So, is the idea that the character can use any ability in the catalog if they have the points for it at any time or do they have to pick X number of new abilities each level and/or have to prepare a set batch of abilities at the beginning of the day?

Basically is your spellcasting ability-using mundane a prepared mundane, a spontaneous mundane or a fixed list mundane?

I imagine it would be mostly similar to psionic characters' powers, only you can maybe swap out some of them per day (probably not the whole list).


First thing I would note is that this makes the mundane even more MAD than they are now. For the t1 casters, they always are SAD, allowing them to have one high score and spend their WBL improving that score in order to grow in power. With this system, the user will have to improve raise multiple attributes to unlock the higher level powers. An expensive and self-limiting proposition.

I'm aware of the MADness this causes. I'm also aware that having abilities which are stronger than the casters' similar abilities, and having six lots of power points to play with, is justification enough.


Also, I would argue that starting your description with "whatever you can do needs to be possible in the real world" when your first ability is BREATHING FIRE kind of self-contradicts. I assume you are imagining the carnival fire-breather or something.

"Also, I would argue that starting your description with "whatever you can do needs to be possible in the real world" when your first ability is SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE DO IN THE REAL WORLD kind of self-contradicts. I assume you are imagining the people who do this in the real world or something."

Seriously, acknowledging that it's a thing that people do in the real world just after decrying it as impossible? What gives?


Making a scaling speed which depends on the actual speed at which the casters gains spells at your table might make sense.
If you are at a table where the caster is an elven generalist domain wizard which cast a ninth level spell at level 1 then you feel quite bad if you are not flinging your level 9 mundane powers around too.

For a start, EGDW can't cast ninth-level spells at level 1 without resorting to the same shenanigans that let almost anyone do that. Second, if anyone is wish-chaining, you're not playing the kind of D&D I'm interested in or care about.

[noob]

In your rogue sneak attack description(to nonsi)

5 ranks in Heal add an additional 1d6 to SA damage against the rogue’s Heal-related group of creatures.

heal works on all the living creatures.
so does it means that you get bonus sa damage against living creatures or that you only get a restrictive list And have your heal skill nerfed?

[Unavenger]

...Great. Now we're on critiquing someone else's class.

I don't know why I bothered posting this. I was even clear about what type of critique I wanted - "What I want to know is basically whether these abilities are good enough, what other abilities are necessary, and so forth" - instead, I got told that my core premise was crap, I got shameless self-promotion, and now people are discussing someone else's class in my thread.

Give me the type of feedback that's actually any use or get out.

[Illven]

How would you fluff someone spiking your food with hallucinogen drugs if you have empty mind. Hallucinogens would probably be a mind effecting effect, but you're supposed to be immune to them with empty mind.

[Unavenger]

How would you fluff someone spiking your food with hallucinogen drugs if you have empty mind. Hallucinogens would probably be a mind effecting effect, but you're supposed to be immune to them with empty mind.

I mean, you resist their effects. Same as passing the fort save.

[noob]

For a start, EGDW can't cast ninth-level spells at level 1 without resorting to the same shenanigans that let almost anyone do that. Second, if anyone is wish-chaining, you're not playing the kind of D&D I'm interested in or care about.
I guess you do not read a lot of to threads.
It does not use wishes to obtain ninth level spells(the explanation of how elven generalist domain wizard works is not exactly simple but it is different from the other tricks and it also needs chaotic spell recall(and to have a spellbook with one chaos spell of each level from level 2 to 9 or alternatively use miser of magic for the spells up to level 5 and then you have more choice in chaos spells for higher levels) that which is not indicated in the base build and it takes nine days).

[Magikeeper]

@Noob: Eh, I played pretty extreme high-op 3.5 back in the day ('Should we recruit a hulking hurler?' 'Would that even be useful to us?' 'Eh, I guess not.') and I can't remember the specifics wrt how you'd pull that off on the top of my head. Even groups allowing hulking hurler builds are going to stop 9ths-at-level-1 combos anyway. Unless that.. eh.. let's save it for another thread.

Seriously though, there are a lot of random niche combos and weird rules quirks in 3.5. The level 1 super combos do tend to be more well known in theoretical optimization communities than the more usable stuff like surprising your DM with the absurdity of technically-lethal-to-living-creatures positive energy attacks and the like but anyone that doesn't do theo-opt musing all the time is far less likely to bother. I know that elf thing isn't the Pun-Pun combo but frankly I didn't even keep up with the Pun-Pun variants back in my high-op gaming days.

Anyway, let's talk about the class mentioned in the op.

--------

First: You (OP) seem to have the general idea of where the divide truly is - general utility, battlefield control, etc. I'm going to assume the goal here is to keep up with reasonably optimized magic-wielding party members. If you want this class to be able to hunt hyper-optimized wizards that's an entirely different issue. Wizard slayer this class is not.

Just looking at the kinds of abilities you have rather than the exact balance... I think you could continue with:

> A way to build, dig, or otherwise do construction work at an accelerated pace. (For out-of-combat stuff). If you want to keep up with T1 at high levels... hrm.. a later version of the ability that's very accelerated w/truly exquisite craftsmanship.
> A way to move fast aside from the costly extra turn stuff. Extra move actions or something like that.
> Non-flight maneuvering (climbing, jumping, swimming).

Not having much/anything in the way of dispelling limits fights VS casters and other magical creatures but as a member of a party WITH casters I think the current direction is already pretty well-rounded capability wise.

[Goaty14]

*cough* hypermundanes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?428437-quot-Stand-back-boy-and-let-me-show-you-war!-quot-%283-5-class-PEACH%29&p=19553066#post19553066) *drops mic*

Ok ok ok, I think what really makes people question the validity of this is that you list "Being able to do it IRL" and some wacko-abilities that the common man doesn't deem feasible, such as "being able to move unimpeded, even if your legs were nailed together or something" and "bring people back from the dead". It seems really self-contradictory at first glance.

As for the actual critique, it seems that all of these abilities are geared towards the same class and are really... not focused? I mean, I think that you approached this with the idea that <class> should be able to compete effectively at high levels with the Wizard, AND Druid, AND Cleric, AND Sha'ir, AND StP Erudite, AND Artificer, etc, etc, etc. Thus the abilities turned out to start encroaching on the "spell territory" of other classes and doesn't really provide a focus of its own. What I'm seeing is a blatant "How can we take <spell> and make it non-magical?". Common core ones like Freedom of Movement, Animate Rope, Mind Blank, Revivify, Prayer, etc. Note how none of those have a theme, unlike...

The Druid's spell list was made to do a lot of nature-y divine stuff. If a spell has anything to do with plants, natural resources, or natural events (Entangle, Stone Shape, Earthquake), then you can tell it's probably on the druid list without checking.
The Cleric's spell list was made to do a lot of the support-magic divine stuff. If a spell has anything to do with healing, defensive buffs, or removing status effects (Cure X Wounds, Elation, Remove Poison), then you can tell it's probably on the cleric list without checking.
The Wizard's spell list was made to do a lot of the offensive/utility-magic arcane stuff. If a spell clearly relates to a school of magic or deals elemental damage (Summon Monster X, Fireball), then you can tell it's probably on the wizard list without checking.

With this "ability list" (or whatever you call it), there is no such theme (inb4 you call "if it can be done IRL" a theme; how are you going to explain that theme to a fantasy commoner?), rather a pile of abilities with no real focus.

TL;DR Your problems:
- "Abilities" emulate already-existing spells. I spot... ~7 unique things? Instead of making an artificer-knockoff, show me something interesting.
- The "ability list" doesn't have a theme, nor does the class seem to have a theme. Druids do nature-stuff, Clerics do healing-stuff, Conjurers do summoning-stuff. What does this class do?

[Magikeeper]

Eh, since there isn't a chassis for the class given or any fluff past "is mundane" I was treating this more like ability brainstorming. Probably with the class itself choosing a subsection of the larger list based on theme or something.

[Unavenger]

Anyway, let's talk about the class mentioned in the op.

Thank you!


First: You (OP) seem to have the general idea of where the divide truly is - general utility, battlefield control, etc. I'm going to assume the goal here is to keep up with reasonably optimized magic-wielding party members. If you want this class to be able to hunt hyper-optimized wizards that's an entirely different issue. Wizard slayer this class is not.

This will get better after I add all of the combat abilities, but sure: it's not exactly going to be taking out high-OP wizards without a lot of cunning. Mid-OP wizards should be getting a run for their money, mind.

Just looking at the kinds of abilities you have rather than the exact balance... I think you could continue with:


> A way to build, dig, or otherwise do construction work at an accelerated pace. (For out-of-combat stuff). If you want to keep up with T1 at high levels... hrm.. a later version of the ability that's very accelerated w/truly exquisite craftsmanship.
> A way to move fast aside from the costly extra turn stuff. Extra move actions or something like that.
> Non-flight maneuvering (climbing, jumping, swimming).

1: Can't believe I glossed over fabricate. Yeah, I'll be adding that.
2: That's probably a chassis thing, but I might add, say, a move-action ability that allows you to run instead of just moving for some stamina points.


Not having much/anything in the way of dispelling limits fights VS casters and other magical creatures but as a member of a party WITH casters I think the current direction is already pretty well-rounded capability wise.

Yeah, at the moment you have a very limited counterspell ability inasmuch as that you can attempt to break people's concentration as an immediate action with some bonuses. Again this will probably get better once I add the other combat abilities.


*cough* hypermundanes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?428437-quot-Stand-back-boy-and-let-me-show-you-war!-quot-%283-5-class-PEACH%29&p=19553066#post19553066) *drops mic*

So, there's a few reasons I'm not using hypermundanes, but the most simple one is heroic killing blow. Jormengand admits that HKB is broken as all balls, but obviously it isn't around to make a fix. Even combat coup is more than a little too strong, seeing as it's close to no-save-just-die at level one. These are supposed to be fixed in the mythical sourcebook Sword Versus Spell but no-one knows when that's going to happen, if it's going to happen, and they're not the only problems that received a "Imma fix this in SvS" response when asked (not by me - I have lurked far and seen much). Also, it can be argued (not 100% unfairly) that Find Rift and Find Planar Rift are kinda cop-outs.

If a link to SvS falls into my lap, I might use it, but that doesn't seem totally likely right now.


Ok ok ok, I think what really makes people question the validity of this is that you list "Being able to do it IRL" and some wacko-abilities that the common man doesn't deem feasible, such as "being able to move unimpeded, even if your legs were nailed together or something" and "bring people back from the dead". It seems really self-contradictory at first glance.

I should have learned from IHS-the-sun nonsense that people would take "Effect" in the loosest possible sense, but bringing people back from the dead used to be so common that the definition had to be changed - to quote Wikipedia, "Death was once defined as the cessation of heartbeat (cardiac arrest) and of breathing, but the development of CPR and prompt defibrillation have rendered that definition inadequate because breathing and heartbeat can sometimes be restarted."


As for the actual critique, it seems that all of these abilities are geared towards the same class and are really... not focused? I mean, I think that you approached this with the idea that <class> should be able to compete effectively at high levels with the Wizard, AND Druid, AND Cleric, AND Sha'ir, AND StP Erudite, AND Artificer, etc, etc, etc. Thus the abilities turned out to start encroaching on the "spell territory" of other classes and doesn't really provide a focus of its own. What I'm seeing is a blatant "How can we take <spell> and make it non-magical?". Common core ones like Freedom of Movement, Animate Rope, Mind Blank, Revivify, Prayer, etc. Note how none of those have a theme, unlike...

The Druid's spell list was made to do a lot of nature-y divine stuff. If a spell has anything to do with plants, natural resources, or natural events (Entangle, Stone Shape, Earthquake), then you can tell it's probably on the druid list without checking.
The Cleric's spell list was made to do a lot of the support-magic divine stuff. If a spell has anything to do with healing, defensive buffs, or removing status effects (Cure X Wounds, Elation, Remove Poison), then you can tell it's probably on the cleric list without checking.
The Wizard's spell list was made to do a lot of the offensive/utility-magic arcane stuff. If a spell clearly relates to a school of magic or deals elemental damage (Summon Monster X, Fireball), then you can tell it's probably on the wizard list without checking.

The rope one was actually meant to be Mage Hand, but sure. The thing is, you can make counterarguments to any of the lists, especially the wizard list. Flame strike does elemental damage, and so does call lightning. Neither is on the wizard list. Freedom is a wizard spell, not a cleric spell; same with Mage Armour. Every rainbow spell I can find is a wizard spell, but not a druid spell. There is very little that you can give as a theme that encapsulates entire spell lists without being overly general about it.

Oh, and as Magikeeper points out, I'm probably not going to give these all to the same class, and even if I do, you're going to have a hard time making use of all of them - you probably want to focus on the ones that let you use your strongest ability scores for the saves, and then pick the ones that don't have saves to use up your points on the abilities which you have lower.


TL;DR Your problems:
- "Abilities" emulate already-existing spells. I spot... ~7 unique things? Instead of making an artificer-knockoff, show me something interesting.
- The "ability list" doesn't have a theme, nor does the class seem to have a theme. Druids do nature-stuff, Clerics do healing-stuff, Conjurers do summoning-stuff. What does this class do?

The abilities do emulate spells, that much is true. So do powers, mind. When I stick more abilities which aren't just "Make sure I can do this thing" that'll get better.

[nonsi]

.

Now that I had more time to look at things, most proposals seem within reason of the mundane world.

Some however seem a bit of a stretch:

Breath of Flame (S/Con/15 foot cone, Fire): I doubt anyone in history ever spit fire a distance of 15’ in an effective manner that would do significant damage. This would also require a steady supply of alcohol.
Therapeutic Training (S/Touch): Could you illustrate how this happens in real life?
Declaration in Steel (S/Str/Long, 20 ft radius burst): This one’s a bit vague (e.g. how many of those 15 sharp objects can hit a single target?... what’s required mechanically to “launch” an object?... Supplies... etc.)
Spellsplinter Manoeuvre (I): This should require readying an action.
Back from the Brink (S/Touch): Bringing someone from the brink of death as a mundane standard action (roughly 3-4 seconds) breaks suspension of disbelief no matter how far I try to stretch my imagination.

[Mike Miller]

In the beginning, you say these abilities are for multiple mundane classes. How are you breaking them up? How are the classes different? That info would probably help refine the abilities.

What happened to Jormengand? I just found out from the above spoiler he is no longer around

[Unavenger]

I've added a couple more abilities. Even more to come when I'm recovered...


Breath of Flame (S/Con/15 foot cone, Fire): I doubt anyone in history ever spit fire a distance of 15’ in an effective manner that would do significant damage. This would also require a steady supply of alcohol.

Record is about double that, and I really wouldn't want to be standing in the flames. The ability requires the abstract contents of your tool pouch.


Declaration in Steel (S/Str/Long, 20 ft radius burst): This one’s a bit vague (e.g. how many of those 15 sharp objects can hit a single target?... what’s required mechanically to “launch” an object?... Supplies... etc.)
I've made it so that it uses your tool pouch and doesn't specify the objects to be thrown, so you have the stuff to do this in your tool pouch.


Spellsplinter Manoeuvre (I): This should require readying an action.

It requires readying an action if you don't have spellsplinter manoeuvre. Literally all the (I) part of spellsplinter does is stop you needing to (amusingly, you can make a readied attack, make an attack of opportunity, and make a spellsplinter manoeuvre all in one round). Given that you need to ready an action to counter a spell with dispel magic coupled with the chance it might not work is literally the entire reason why no-one ever does it, I'm pretty sure this is fine.


Therapeutic Training (S/Touch): Could you illustrate how this happens in real life?
Back from the Brink (S/Touch): Bringing someone from the brink of death as a mundane standard action (roughly 3-4 seconds) breaks suspension of disbelief no matter how far I try to stretch my imagination.

I've made these take longer so they're less weird.


In the beginning, you say these abilities are for multiple mundane classes. How are you breaking them up? How are the classes different? That info would probably help refine the abilities.

What happened to Jormengand? I just found out from the above spoiler he is no longer around

The plan was initially one for each ability score, but I'm not 100% on that - I'm thinking, for example, a dexterity one which is a little like a rogue and a constitution one which is a bit like a barbarian, but not sure.

[Mike Miller]

The plan was initially one for each ability score, but I'm not 100% on that - I'm thinking, for example, a dexterity one which is a little like a rogue and a constitution one which is a bit like a barbarian, but not sure.

Ok, so are all 6 going to have all these abilities? Do they all choose a subset? Are there 6 subsets? Will it be broken up like ToB disciplines?

[noob]

Ok, so are all 6 going to have all these abilities? Do they all choose a subset? Are there 6 subsets? Will it be broken up like ToB disciplines?

Maybe 3 classes?
Prepared full casters have wizards, druids and clerics.
So it might be Strong(str and cha) Agile(dex and int) and Tough(con and wis) for that power system.(of course you get some points out of your domain)

[Unavenger]

Ok, so are all 6 going to have all these abilities? Do they all choose a subset? Are there 6 subsets? Will it be broken up like ToB disciplines?

I haven't really decided how it'll work, yet. That's another thing I need input on, I suppose.


Maybe 3 classes?
Prepared full casters have wizards, druids and clerics.
So it might be Strong(str and cha) Agile(dex and int) and Tough(con and wis) for that power system.(of course you get some points out of your domain)

I considered this possibility, although it ends up being a little odd and slightly too ToB-reminiscent - after all, dexterity and charisma is definitely an archetype that I want to consider. I suppose I could just make... fifteen different classes, one for each ability pair? Or the ability to decide which chassis you'll have and then choose what abilities to prioritise after that?

Decisions, decisions...

[ngilop]

3) Whatever you can do needs to be possible in the real world.


THIS


This right here is what I hated about 3.5, and what I find in the majority of mundane 'fixes' that I abhor.

Why are you intentionally regulating mundanes who live, breathe, and exist in a fantastical world, to what us humans are capable of in our worlds?

read this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?276366-The-Fighter-Problem-amp-How-to-Fix-It) ignore the fact that I literally said something almost identicle to it a few weeks earlier and got ridiculed for it. The point stands.


You are not trying to recreate Audie Murphy, as a mundane fighter, you should be trying to recreate Indrajit, or Heracles, or any of the heroes of Myth from greek, Hinu, norse, Japanese, algonqiuin, etc etc.


Limiting what should be great fantastical heroes to only what us real world human are capable of doing is completely and fully what went wrong with creating mundanes in the beginning. You are just making the decision o not actually DO anything to fix the disparity by letting spellcaster break real world scientific laws, but the poor rogues, fighters, and what not still can't even compete.



AT the very least. mundanes need the following types of actions

ways to affect all 3 saves
ways to cause different status effects (dazed, stunned, paralyzed, bleed etc)
ways to be able to use all 5 types of actions: full, move, standard, swift, immediate
ways to interact and affect the world outside of combat
ways to make combat more efficient for them than others in the case of fighters
way to do more than just damage HP, give them some kind of ability damage attacks


I did a couple fighter fixes. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?318268-My-Latest-big-project!-(-a-big-deal-fighter-fix)) both in 3.5 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?424466-My-Third-Fighter-fix-trying-something-new) and pathfinder (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?568764-Pathfinder-Fighter-Re-Tool). Take a look at my designs and the philosophy behind them then try better to make mundanes better, hopefully, by not making them less useful and allowing fantastical heroes to actually BE fantastical.

[Unavenger]

Why are you intentionally regulating mundanes who live, breathe, and exist in a fantastical world, to what us humans are capable of in our worlds?

Because that's the kind of character that I enjoy? If you're here to say that that's not a goal I should have, then you're not really helping me make these classes. You're just needlessly threadcrapping, and... honestly that's already happened, and it's not interesting. I know that some people think I should be reinventing the swordmagesage. I don't WANT to reinvent the swordsagemage.

[ngilop]

Because that's the kind of character that I enjoy? If you're here to say that that's not a goal I should have, then you're not really helping me make these classes. You're just needlessly threadcrapping, and... honestly that's already happened, and it's not interesting. I know that some people think I should be reinventing the swordmagesage. I don't WANT to reinvent the swordsagemage.

No what I am trying to get at is:

If you want mundane to keep up with castes intentionally forcing them to only do real life things that real lie humanity is capable of doing is literally the opposite of what your stated (but appareantly untruthful) goal of having mundanes keep up with casters.

SO you doing the thing that irritates me when it comes to 3rd ed. What you are saying is
these guys with spells can do all kinds of crazy things because 'hey its magic'. But, the guys without magic can't do anything that a normal human could, even though they completely exist within a fantasy world. That is literally the exact opposite of what your title says.


I am not asking you to give fighters, rogues, and what not spells or supernatural powers. But you need to stop with the guy and the gym fallacy and start realize that mundanes are Heracles and Pecos Bill.

They should be able to sunder mountains and ride tornadoes at high level because mythic and legendary heroes CAN do that kinda of stuff. A real life human is not able to fight a angry polar bear and win, or punch his way though an iron door, or step on wind. These are things I assume most high level characters can do because fantasy planet is not earth.

[Thirdtwin]

So I think the MADness hurts your concept here. I know separate pools of abilities based on attributes has the allure of seeming naturalistic, but part of what makes tier 1 classes tier 1 is supposed to be their flexibility, and a part of that comes from using their caster stat and/or spell slots to duplicate the capabilities of other stats. In low PB games or games that otherwise restrict stat boosting, it's a real benefit to be able to just focus on Int and then use spells to do stuff that stats like Dexterity are more good at. What you're going to end up making is a system where the strong guy gets a resource that lets him only do more strong things, and the charming guy, charming things, etc-but in the context of 3.5, wise guys' resources let them do strong things and smart guys' resources do charming things. Just putting in utility effects isn't enough if the characters left in the lurch don't actually get any of them because they went strong and dumb instead of smart and wimpy (or whatever combination leaves them without Mind Blank or Death Ward).

I also find it mildly amusing that you call out hit points for being "abstract" and "nonsense" and then go on to replicate something even more abstract and nonsensical in your fix here, namely the quantum spell pouch that has everything you need to cast the spell you prepared that day as long as it doesn't cost anything despite having a weight and presumably a volume that couldn't possibly hold all the things it's supposed to. Sure, let's give martials a "tool pouch" that lets them have enough alcohol on hand to instantly incinerate a majority of "normal people" to death in 6 seconds (normal of course being questionable for any entity statted in D&D, but assuming ~1st level humanoid commoners of average stats and HP rolls, a 6d6 breath of fire has good odds of putting them down permanently in a single action), divers rocks and sticks and pointy things, bags of mysterious powder, bandages, etc etc etc. I'd argue that "always having the right item on hand to do the very specific tricks you're always capable of" is itself not something people in the real world are capable of, but having things people in the real world aren't capable of doesn't irritate me in my fantasy fiction the way it apparently does you, who nevertheless made Felix the Cat's bag of tricks the required component to many of these class features. I respect how brazen that is.

I think in putting fire breathing first, you invite the same reaction that some people had to the Tome of Battle putting its flame projection-based discipline first. Still, you need something or other to deal with swarms at low level.

I think I'd have made Empathic Vision dependent on sensing accurately rather than seeing in particular (although it would need a different name in that case).

re Hypnotic Suggestion, does "something totally against their nature" include suicide?

Moment of Focus being True Strike should probably have the "ignore concealment-based miss chances" clause of true strike as well. Big numbers are nice but you need those permissions sometimes too.

I don't know if tying instant death and autohit/crit together may be the best idea.

Most of the rest of them seem fine enough to me. We seem to have some differences of opinion regarding what "possible in the real world" means, but you're mostly just duplicating the subtler spell effects anyway and 3e's environment assumes those exist, so it can't be that unbalanced. The refresh rate of each of these pools would matter too, of course. 1 minute of FoM a week, 1 minute a day and several minutes a day (and room to do other things) all have different implications.

[Unavenger]

I am not asking you to give fighters, rogues, and what not spells or supernatural powers...They should be able to sunder mountains and ride tornadoes

Orwell himself would be impressed by that doublethink.

Do you have CONSTRUCTIVE criticism? If not, go bother someone else, please.


So I think the MADness hurts your concept here. I know separate pools of abilities based on attributes has the allure of seeming naturalistic, but part of what makes tier 1 classes tier 1 is supposed to be their flexibility, and a part of that comes from using their caster stat and/or spell slots to duplicate the capabilities of other stats. In low PB games or games that otherwise restrict stat boosting, it's a real benefit to be able to just focus on Int and then use spells to do stuff that stats like Dexterity are more good at. What you're going to end up making is a system where the strong guy gets a resource that lets him only do more strong things, and the charming guy, charming things, etc-but in the context of 3.5, wise guys' resources let them do strong things and smart guys' resources do charming things. Just putting in utility effects isn't enough if the characters left in the lurch don't actually get any of them because they went strong and dumb instead of smart and wimpy (or whatever combination leaves them without Mind Blank or Death Ward).

Each class will have at least some access to all kinds of abilities, and Empty Mind doesn't even require any points to activate.


I also find it mildly amusing that you call out hit points for being "abstract" and "nonsense" and then go on to replicate something even more abstract and nonsensical in your fix here, namely the quantum spell pouch that has everything you need to cast the spell you prepared that day as long as it doesn't cost anything despite having a weight and presumably a volume that couldn't possibly hold all the things it's supposed to. Sure, let's give martials a "tool pouch" that lets them have enough alcohol on hand to instantly incinerate a majority of "normal people" to death in 6 seconds (normal of course being questionable for any entity statted in D&D, but assuming ~1st level humanoid commoners of average stats and HP rolls, a 6d6 breath of fire has good odds of putting them down permanently in a single action), divers rocks and sticks and pointy things, bags of mysterious powder, bandages, etc etc etc. I'd argue that "always having the right item on hand to do the very specific tricks you're always capable of" is itself not something people in the real world are capable of, but having things people in the real world aren't capable of doesn't irritate me in my fantasy fiction the way it apparently does you, who nevertheless made Felix the Cat's bag of tricks the required component to many of these class features. I respect how brazen that is.

So, I think that having ill-defined amounts of stuff on you is just as abstract but less nonsense than hit points - the DM will never describe everything that's lying on the floor, every book in the library, and so forth: in games which aren't as rules-complete as 3.5, what you're carrying is never well-defined anyway. To be clear, I don't mind that hit points are abstract: I do mind when people complain that "You can survive X-many hits with a longsword" must mean "You can survive being stabbed straight through the chest with X-many longswords".


I think in putting fire breathing first, you invite the same reaction that some people had to the Tome of Battle putting its flame projection-based discipline first. Still, you need something or other to deal with swarms at low level.

Yeah, but I like to think there's a difference between this (https://r.hswstatic.com/w_907/gif/podcasts/stuffyoushouldknow-podcasts-wp-content-uploads-sites-16-2013-12-fire-breathing-600x350.jpg) and this (https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB10PAmownH8KJjSspcq6z3QFXaI/DIY-frame-women-fire-magic-the-gathering-glasses-artwork-wallpaper-Abstract-fire-art-wimen-cloth-silk.jpg_640x640.jpg)


I think I'd have made Empathic Vision dependent on sensing accurately rather than seeing in particular (although it would need a different name in that case).

I guess I'm assuming that you're telling from body language, not just facial expressions.


re Hypnotic Suggestion, does "something totally against their nature" include suicide?

I like to hope so.


Moment of Focus being True Strike should probably have the "ignore concealment-based miss chances" clause of true strike as well. Big numbers are nice but you need those permissions sometimes too.

I legitimately forgot that that was a thing that True Strike actually did. Definitely changing that.


I don't know if tying instant death and autohit/crit together may be the best idea.

It's meant to be like all of the instakill spells and disintegrate giving you some pity damage if the target passes their save.

[GabesHorn]

I don't like this one bit. The reason people play mundane instead of caster is because it's mechanically different or thematically different. This is just caster/psionics refluffed right down to being broken down by levels.

That said, limiting things to what is possible for humans is automatically irreconciliable with high level DND. By definition what is humanly possible is no more than the very lowest levels, perhaps level 5 if not less. At the same time wushu mundane pseudo magic is a flavour many despise. The flavours of many of these abilities are interesting without being anime-esque ridiculous and I appreciate that alot. I just hate the mechanics of it, they're boring and don't distinguish themselves from spellcasters.

[nonsi]

Orwell himself would be impressed by that doublethink.

Do you have CONSTRUCTIVE criticism? If not, go bother someone else, please.



On one hand, I do agree that sundering mountains and riding tornadoes is way too much to be included with the term "mundane" in the same sentence, or even discussion.
On the other, your defensive attitude isn't gonna help you with encouraging constructive feedbacks.
People here share their thoughts with the best of intentions. It's OK to disagree (nobody here fully sees eye to eye with me on how things should work), but you shouldn't take things as if someone's intentionally trying to annoy you.
If you give it a chance, you might be surprised how much you can learn from people that you generally disagree with.

[Unavenger]

On one hand, I do agree that sundering mountains and riding tornadoes is way too much to be included with the term "mundane" in the same sentence, or even discussion.
On the other, your defensive attitude isn't gonna help you with encouraging constructive feedbacks.
People here share their thoughts with the best of intentions. It's OK to disagree (nobody here fully sees eye to eye with me on how things should work), but you shouldn't take things as if someone's intentionally trying to annoy you.
If you give it a chance, you might be surprised how much you can learn from people that you generally disagree with.

I'm just sick of fifteen posts of people not even discussing the class in the OP, followed by comments like "This right here is what I hated about 3.5, and what I find in the majority of mundane 'fixes' that I abhor" and the tired insinuation with no evidence that I'll never be able to keep up with casters, fostered by a lack of knowledge about the kinds of things that people in the real world manage actually to do.

I'm interested in constructive criticism, but it has to be constructive. I'm a big kid, I can take "You should probably add this" or "I would recommend changing that". But I'm more than a little annoyed with people coming here with literally no intention but to crap on the entire concept of what I'm doing here. There are already threads for that.

[GabesHorn]

Honestly? My thoughts is that you have a very thin skin and feel insecure about your idea. People HAVE been providing constructive criticism, mentioning what they DON'T LIKE about your fix and hence criticisms noting what you should change according to them. Unhelpful criticism is just mindlessly attacking your idea without saying anything that could possibly improve what is there. Instead of becoming defensive, think about the things that people have said and explained that they dislike about your design and go on from there. Then, you will end up with a work that has been thoroughly improved and developed, instead of having wasted your time on a falsely well received work that nobody would honestly play, but had to tiptoe around criticising to spare the creator's feelings. Got it?

[Goaty14]

I think that the primary information that we need is what sort of a high level caster party this is trying to "keep up with"*, and what sort of tricks they're packing (read: "level of cheese"). I would list some stuff of what high-level casters can do below, but without a way to know that the 17th level casters that I'm talking about are the same 17th level casters you're talking about, we'll end up continually throwing hypotheticals at each other until any discussion is ultimately fruitless.

Side Comment: I'm not sure if Empty Mind protects from Metafaculty. I'm not saying it should apply to Metafaculty (IMO, Metafaculty should remain the divination that virtually trumps everything else), but RAI appears to me that it should.

*Compared to a Craftificer, Blaster Wizard, Healbot Cleric, and Non-Natural Spell Druid, I'd say this class does quite well.


and the tired insinuation with no evidence that I'll never be able to keep up with casters,

Evidence, you say? How do you expect me to have evidence on not keeping up with casters when we don't even know what sort of casters this is supposed to be compared to? Sure, I could pull a classic "Paranoid Wizard Build" out of my pocket with all the classic "plane shifts to his private demiplane", "has a secret planar-binding army at his disposal", etc, etc, etc. At that point, then all you'd have to do is say "Nah, I'm not comparing this fix to that level of T1 wizard", and we're back to square 1 with me having to both make a build that surpasses your class but somehow hit the ambiguous "balance point" that we're aiming for.

[Unavenger]

People HAVE been providing constructive criticism, mentioning what they DON'T LIKE about your fix and hence criticisms noting what you should change according to them. Unhelpful criticism is just mindlessly attacking your idea without saying anything that could possibly improve what is there.

Yeah, the thing is...

> First reply is unhelpful refutation of core principle. I get annoyed.
> Second reply is deliberate misinterpretation of one of the statements for kicks. I get annoyed.
> Third reply is someone else plugging their own class. I get annoyed.
> Fourth reply is actually partially helpful, and I respond kindly to the helpful bits, but also partly insisting that humans can't breathe fire in the same paragraph as mentioning a kind of person who can breathe fire, which baffles me.
> Fifth reply is incoherent mumbling about EGDW, and I explain I don't want to be in a TO game.
> Sixth reply is a response to the person plugging their own class. I get annoyed.
> Seventh reply is a clarification question. I answer.
> Eighth reply is more nonsense about EGDW and TO.
> Ninth reply is someone actually deigning to talk about my class meaningfully. Provides constructive ideas for how to improve the class. I reply by taking them on board.
> Tenth reply is someone plugging their favourite homebrew, in a spoiler, because it's relevant. The rest of the post is relevant critique. I respond with clear indication that I've taken it on board and thought about it.
> Eleventh reply isn't addressed to me, but is relevant.
> Twelfth reply is relevant and I make changes accordingly.
> Thirteenth reply is a clarification question and I answer.
> Fourteenth reply is a clarification question and I answer.
> Fifteenth reply is a constructive suggestion and I consider it.
> Sixteenth reply is empty hate-mail with basically no suggestions that I hadn't already implemented. I respond comparatively calmly.
> Seventeenth reply is more empty hate-mail. I dismiss it quickly rather than engaging.
> Eighteenth reply has at least one decent suggestion and a few critiques which bear explaining. I change one of the abilities and explain the bits that need explaining.
> Nineteenth reply is tantamount to "I like literally nothing about this". So helpful!
> Twentieth reply is paradox of tolerance writ large. I respond to it explaining my view on it.
> Twenty-first reply is more empty hate-mail. I'm responding to it right now.
> Twenty-second reply is a reasonable critique of the admittedly ill-defined balance level. Gimme a sec.

If you don't think that I'm taking constructive criticism well, you haven't been paying attention to how I responded when given more to work with than "Your entire premise is bad" or "I hate everything about this". It's not like I'm surrounded by unquestioning yes-people (what kind of yes-person says "You should change this" or "That bit isn't realistic, I'd make it longer"?). I'm just not interested in anyone who wants to start my mundane class by telling me it shouldn't be mundane. Try telling me what abilities I could change, how, and why that would make it better. And for god's sake don't tell me I should let it cut mountains in two.


I think that the primary information that we need is what sort of a high level caster party this is trying to "keep up with"*, and what sort of tricks they're packing (read: "level of cheese"). I would list some stuff of what high-level casters can do below, but without a way to know that the 17th level casters that I'm talking about are the same 17th level casters you're talking about, we'll end up continually throwing hypotheticals at each other until any discussion is ultimately fruitless.

Side Comment: I'm not sure if Empty Mind protects from Metafaculty. I'm not saying it should apply to Metafaculty (IMO, Metafaculty should remain the divination that virtually trumps everything else), but RAI appears to me that it should.

*Compared to a Craftificer, Blaster Wizard, Healbot Cleric, and Non-Natural Spell Druid, I'd say this class does quite well.



Evidence, you say? How do you expect me to have evidence on not keeping up with casters when we don't even know what sort of casters this is supposed to be compared to? Sure, I could pull a classic "Paranoid Wizard Build" out of my pocket with all the classic "plane shifts to his private demiplane", "has a secret planar-binding army at his disposal", etc, etc, etc. At that point, then all you'd have to do is say "Nah, I'm not comparing this fix to that level of T1 wizard", and we're back to square 1 with me having to both make a build that surpasses your class but somehow hit the ambiguous "balance point" that we're aiming for.

Okay, so, there's two questions here. Easy one first: I'm going to say that no, Empty Mind does not protect against metafaculty, Contact Other Plane, or other spells and powers that target the caster, but do block against scrying and other effect or area spells as well as spells that target you directly. Also, a wish or miracle used to replicate the effects of a scrying spell isn't mind-affecting, divination or clairsentience, so it isn't blocked.

The second question's answer is that I'm looking to compete with casters who:

Use some of the stronger, but not universally the strongest, spells on their list,
Probably without splat-diving but with access to maybe a couple of splats that they happen to own,
With some intelligence and tactics,
But in roughly the spirit that they're intended.

This exists in the space between using fireball as though it were the best spell in the game and using alter self to turn into something with a fly speed for ten times as long as you could fly with a spell one level higher. It's the space between using fire trap unironically and hiding in a rope trick all night every night. It's the space in which you don't tend to see metamagic reducers, but people have figured out that fell drain is a pretty good metamagic feat when used right. It's the space where wizards actually tend to get involved, personally, in fights but you still don't want to be fighting one, where shadow spells allow you spontaneity on the fly but not 120%-reality nonsense, the space between polymorphing into a random monster that sounds cool and polymorphing into a monster who can replicate far more stuff than the fourth-level slot could ever have given you otherwise.

Does that help? If not, I can try to give some more examples and/or specifics.

[Goaty14]

Does that help? If not, I can try to give some more examples and/or specifics.

So the void in between "sucking" and "uber-wizard", generally the way WotC "wanted wizards/others to be played"*

Whistles innocently, balling up sheet of paper that describes "Bob the 15th level Wizard, using GPB to bind Zargon the Returner**" :smallamused:

I would try for a build that does everything that each ability can do, but the "abilities" each so-obviously draws from multiple different spell-lists that the only way to do so without pushing the parameters (read: Sha'ir) would be a theurge, but then you don't get 9ths and... yea.

Keep in mind that all I have to work off of is an indeterminate list of abilities, not split between each individual class. With more than one class in the works, I wouldn't say that I need to replicate all of them, because that'd be like trying to be better than a Swordsage AND a Crusader.
...
I'll try and think of something.

*IMO, WotC wanted wizards to end up with a limited set of powerful options, and ending up around high T4/low T3. I'm just saying this, but I'll choose to not operate under my personal belief.
**An Elder Evil, FYI

[ArkenBrony]

This is fascinating, I love the idea of doing a martial fix this way. I’d love to see it with a more complete list, and what classes you have in mind.

At first glance my criticism would be that separating them by levels in the way you do makes it feel too magic and gamey. I think level requirements are OK, but there should be a rational reason for the level split, my suggestion would be prerequisites, but also maybe doing them in tiers more similar to warlocks (least, lesser, greater, grand) or some other distinction that makes this different than spellcasting.

What ngilop said
1. ways to affect all 3 saves
2. ways to cause different status effects (dazed, stunned, paralyzed, bleed etc)
3. ways to be able to use all 5 types of actions: full, move, standard, swift, immediate
4. ways to interact and affect the world outside of combat
5. ways to make combat more efficient for them than others in the case of fighters
6. way to do more than just damage HP, give them some kind of ability damage attacks

was a good point.
Specifically, the 3 saves is important, the status effects specifically matter less than having save-or-suck effects. Ways to interact the world is good, this includes movement. There’s no good mundane way to compete with teleport, but you should consider that as a competition. 5th+ level world-affecting spells are brutal.

In addition, spellcasters get levitate – fly – overland flight, and spells with 400+40/lv range, that’s also hard to compete with mundanely.

On the MAD side of things, I think it’d be cool to tie these things to skills, assisted by high attributes, but not a requirement? Or something like that

I look forward to all of this

[nonsi]

In addition, spellcasters get levitate – fly – overland flight, and spells with 400+40/lv range, that’s also hard to compete with mundanely.



Offtopic - there's an effective solution for that - cutting ranges down to size. 3e spell ranges are outrageous.

[noob]

Offtopic - there's an effective solution for that - cutting ranges down to size. 3e spell ranges are outrageous.

In 3e you can also get a bow with the distant shot enchantment and shoot at far away people.
So sad that bows simply does not works.
The only real counter to abused range is silly speeds and those are surprisingly easy to get.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Offtopic - there's an effective solution for that - cutting ranges down to size. 3e spell ranges are outrageous.

Long spell ranges aren't something new to 3e. Fireball's range in AD&D is 10" + 1"/level, meaning 300 ft + 30 ft/level outdoors or 30 ft + 3 ft/level indoors. That's shorter than 3e, granted, but it's a coin toss whether a given spell gained or lost range in going to 3e; lightning bolt, for instance, is 120 ft + 30 ft/level instead of 3e's 120 feet flat, charm person/charm monster is 180 feet instead of 25 ft + 5 ft/2 levels, and so on.

Remember, long-range blasting spells are meant to compare with ranged weapon fire, both longbows and such as noob noted as well as artillery pieces. Fireball's shortest maximum range of 600 feet at CL 5 to longest maximum range of 1,200 feet at CL 20 are fairly reasonable next to a composite longbow's 1,100 feet, a heavy ballista's 1,200 feet, or a heavy trebuchet's 1,500 feet--and if the blaster pulls out an enlarged fireball, well, distance is cheaper than either Enlarge Spell or a lesser metamagic rod of enlarge in gold and feats.

[Thirdtwin]

You do notice what's happening, btw, right? How despite your stating that you wanted this all to remain in the boundaries of what's physically possible in the real world specifically, people are still saying it "feels" like magic? What are your thoughts on that?

[ArkenBrony]

You do notice what's happening, btw, right? How despite your stating that you wanted this all to remain in the boundaries of what's physically possible in the real world specifically, people are still saying it "feels" like magic? What are your thoughts on that?

i meant feels because it's seperated out by a level system, which only feels like magic because that's how vancian magic works. everything is delineated by level, from the rage system, to feat aquisition. it has to be delineated by levels.

from OP's point of view, sorry for speaking for you, but this critique isn't in line with what they are asking for. this is you poking holes in what they want to accomplish. every criticism of it being like magic has been responsed to with reasons why it's like real life.

[Thirdtwin]

i meant feels because it's seperated out by a level system, which only feels like magic because that's how vancian magic works. everything is delineated by level, from the rage system, to feat aquisition. it has to be delineated by levels.

from OP's point of view, sorry for speaking for you, but this critique isn't in line with what they are asking for. this is you poking holes in what they want to accomplish. every criticism of it being like magic has been responsed to with reasons why it's like real life.

I'm not here to poke holes in anything. I'm just curious what Unavenger thinks.

[Unavenger]

At first glance my criticism would be that separating them by levels in the way you do makes it feel too magic and gamey. I think level requirements are OK, but there should be a rational reason for the level split, my suggestion would be prerequisites, but also maybe doing them in tiers more similar to warlocks (least, lesser, greater, grand) or some other distinction that makes this different than spellcasting.

But I think that, de facto, there are "Levels" of almost everything - spells, powers, manoeuvres, utterances, mysteries, vestiges, and so forth. Having abilities in levels is largely how anything that's actually a subsystem works. You can disguise them as warlock tiers, and I suppose I might do so, but levels seem more natural. Pathfinder has a variety of things which, de facto, "Level" in a variety of ways and aren't magical, even if it's just by putting a minimum level on the thing in question.

While we're mentioning (among the list of other things) powers, I should point out that I'm aware of the fact that the points per day thing does initially look very much like power points, but it's also the most realistic way I can think of to represent the fact that people get tired, they get decision fatigue (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_fatigue), ego depletion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_depletion), and each of these work separately. I could have represented this by inflicting ability damage, but this reads a lot like hurting people for trying to do their job, and anyway ability damage isn't modular enough to work with this. I could, I suppose, give characters a small number of each type of points per day naturally, and allow them to take temporary penalties to ability scores in order to gain more of these points (perhaps, also, give them free statistic boosts at various levels to offset this).

So I'm tempted to have it that, say, you get a few of each type of point to start off with (probably only one or two of each, maybe even zero of some) and you can temporarily "damage" (not quite ability damage, nor drain nor burn: I intend for it all to go away with rest but none with Restoration. Maybe call it "Depleting" those abilities) your ability scores to get more points - maybe 1/level for each point of depletion you take, so you start off both not needing to deplete and not really wanting to either, except maybe in a pinch. As you gain levels, three things happen:

- You gain some more of each of the six types of points, meaning that you can do your fair share of stuff without ever having to deplete. Still, though, you shouldn't get many more than, say, 180 total between your six abilities; you might end up having to deplete to use your strongest abilities on your weakest ability score.
- You gain more ability points each time you deplete. You can, using the fact that you get 1/level each time, deplete once to fuel the best ability you can use.
- You actually get some bonuses to ability scores, a la dragon disciple, so the expectation that you deplete doesn't feel like a punishment for doing your job but an expenditure of the additional ability you wouldn't have if you weren't this class in the first place, which can in times of desperation take you below the "Standard" ability score that you would have had otherwise.

I might also, if I go through this route, cause depletion not to affect your DCs (and probably, for simplicity, constitution depletion not to affect your hit points). That way, your DCs are low because you're MAD but high because everything is buffed up, and your desperation play never seems like it's not even worth doing because the DC would be terrible.

Suggestions on this idea would be good?


What ngilop said
1. ways to affect all 3 saves
2. ways to cause different status effects (dazed, stunned, paralyzed, bleed etc)
3. ways to be able to use all 5 types of actions: full, move, standard, swift, immediate
4. ways to interact and affect the world outside of combat
5. ways to make combat more efficient for them than others in the case of fighters
6. way to do more than just damage HP, give them some kind of ability damage attacks

was a good point.
Specifically, the 3 saves is important, the status effects specifically matter less than having save-or-suck effects.

The reason I dismissed this advice is that it's about as constructive as building a blueprint for a replica: it gives you ideas for constructing, but you're two steps ahead - you've had and implemented them. For example:

1: Saves/opposition skills affected include reflex, will, bluff, sense motive, spot and fortitude.
2: Status effects/"Status effects" caused include dazed, frightened, shaken, "dominated", "partially blinded", "inspired", entangled, blinded, deafened, "crippled", "anosmic", nauseated, "surging", dead, "stealthed", and technically prone/dying/stable/unconscious but c'mon.
3: Activation times include standard, immediate, no action, passive, 1 minute, 10 minutes, full, swift. Notably "Move" is missing because abilities used while moving are usually N or P abilities and you just take the movement normally.
4: Effects out of combat include bonuses on any skill you can name, mind reading, sound manipulation, object repair, item identification... and all of the stuff beyond the first half of the alphabet in the first-level ability section.
5: Ways to make combat more combat for them than others include a bunch of stuff that I already mentioned.
6: Ways to do more than HP damage include another bunch of stuff that I already mentioned.

See the point? Compiling that list should be a complete waste of my time, a thing I totally don't do because I don't need to, but if people aren't going to check whether or not the thing they're suggesting is already there - suggesting they haven't read my class and are just on the "Mundanes are crap, 'possible in real life' and 'possible for a random gym rat' are equivalent, lalalalala" bandwagon, not to put too fine a point on it - then I have to ram the point home before we get the people in question (not you, mind) to say anything that might, possibly, in some universe, be helpful.


Ways to interact the world is good, this includes movement. There’s no good mundane way to compete with teleport, but you should consider that as a competition. 5th+ level world-affecting spells are brutal.

Yeah, mostly I'm encouraged by the fact that many casters don't have direct teleportation (word of recall and tree stride both face some pretty harsh restrictions) so I don't need it either; certainly buffing movement speed is likely to be a thing.


In addition, spellcasters get levitate – fly – overland flight, and spells with 400+40/lv range, that’s also hard to compete with mundanely.

As others have pointed out, a bow really ought to be enough for this - and I can always add in things with similar ranges or give you free far shot or some other ability that lets you shoot further.


On the MAD side of things, I think it’d be cool to tie these things to skills, assisted by high attributes, but not a requirement? Or something like that

Of course, some already are - it's a possibility at least.


I look forward to all of this

:smallsmile:


You do notice what's happening, btw, right? How despite your stating that you wanted this all to remain in the boundaries of what's physically possible in the real world specifically, people are still saying it "feels" like magic? What are your thoughts on that?

I'm aware that there are people saying that it seems like magic, either because of personal incredulity (which is going up against recorded facts in the case of the firebreathing) or because of the level system (which can be rebranded if needed). In any case, I don't really buy that this makes it more magical.

[noob]

The entire system of progression of dnd breaks expectations from real life if you think about it too hard.
Which is why people are not supposed to talk about levels within the fictional world.
Else it is really weird: by solving problems you get better at solving problems but there is no progress from trial and failure part while you could except that to be a part of progressing.
so if you go and talk to the villagers and find who is the guilty in a murder and alert the guard then go away and let the village be destroyed by goblins right after the criminal was found you progress but if you make a mistake then that a horde of goblins kills all the people and that you find who was the real murderer(which is dead along the other villagers) after the goblin attack you do not progress somehow while you did investigate as much or even more for finding the criminal.

Or yet the famous bypass problem: if you are just a guy who happens to like to move through walls with your adamentine axe rather than using doors you do not get experience for bypassing traps unless you remember that doors are in fact always trapped yet you did the exact same thing.

[Unavenger]

The entire system of progression of dnd breaks expectations from real life if you think about it too hard.
Which is why people are not supposed to talk about levels within the fictional world.
Else it is really weird: by solving problems you get better at solving problems but there is no progress from trial and failure part while you could except that to be a part of progressing.
so if you go and talk to the villagers and find who is the guilty in a murder and alert the guard then go away and let the village be destroyed by goblins you progress but if you make a mistake then that a horde of goblins kills all the people and that you find who was the real murderer(which is dead along the other villagers) after the goblin attack you do not progress somehow while you did investigate as much or even more.

Or yet the famous bypass problem: if you are just a guy who happens to like to move through walls with your adamentine axe rather than using doors you do not get experience for bypassing traps unless you remember that doors are in fact always trapped yet you did the exact same thing.

Well, no. In D&D 3.5, at least, you get experience for defeating challenges. This means that the challenge went from "Impediment to your aim" to "Not an impediment to your aim". Disarming a trap is defeating it and gets you XP. But so is throwing a summoned badger onto it, teleporting past it or tanking the damage.

If your aim is "Find out who the murderer is", and that continues being a relevant aim in the wake of the goblin assault, then you'll get experience for succeeding when you do, based on the challenge rating of whatever was around in that situation.

Finally, the reason that you're not meant to refer to levels is that they're not a thing in-character. Older D&D versions assigned names to each level in a particular class (so, incidentally, does the Kingdom of Loathing) but that's not a thing any more either.

[noob]

Well, no. In D&D 3.5, at least, you get experience for defeating challenges. This means that the challenge went from "Impediment to your aim" to "Not an impediment to your aim". Disarming a trap is defeating it and gets you XP. But so is throwing a summoned badger onto it, teleporting past it or tanking the damage.

If your aim is "Find out who the murderer is", and that continues being a relevant aim in the wake of the goblin assault, then you'll get experience for succeeding when you do, based on the challenge rating of whatever was around in that situation.

That makes even less sense and is even more absurd.
And you do not have rule support for that.
The whole "you gain experience for bypassing things only if you are aware of what you bypass" is explicitly written in the rules which is why going through the walls instead of using doors does not grants you any xp unless you are aware of the existence of traps in the doors.
And there is no story about aims in the rules: only the concept of challenge ratings.
But your thing about aims is really weird so if my team is in alive in hell and does not aims to survive but only to wear top hats and that the demons absolutely respects your top hat(and therefore are not impediments to your top hat based aim) and would never remove them from you after killing you then all the demons they kills by staring at them does not helps them get better at wearing top hats but on the other hand if you had the aim to kill demons(to which the demons trying to kill you are an obstacle to your aim) then you would become better at wearing top hats by doing the exact same thing.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

While we're mentioning (among the list of other things) powers, I should point out that I'm aware of the fact that the points per day thing does initially look very much like power points, but it's also the most realistic way I can think of to represent the fact that people get tired, they get decision fatigue, ego depletion, and each of these work separately. I could have represented this by inflicting ability damage, but this reads a lot like hurting people for trying to do their job, and anyway ability damage isn't modular enough to work with this. I could, I suppose, give characters a small number of each type of points per day naturally, and allow them to take temporary penalties to ability scores in order to gain more of these points (perhaps, also, give them free statistic boosts at various levels to offset this).

So I'm tempted to have it that, say, you get a few of each type of point to start off with (probably only one or two of each, maybe even zero of some) and you can temporarily "damage" (not quite ability damage, nor drain nor burn: I intend for it all to go away with rest but none with Restoration. Maybe call it "Depleting" those abilities) your ability scores to get more points - maybe 1/level for each point of depletion you take, so you start off both not needing to deplete and not really wanting to either, except maybe in a pinch. As you gain levels, three things happen:

- You gain some more of each of the six types of points, meaning that you can do your fair share of stuff without ever having to deplete. Still, though, you shouldn't get many more than, say, 180 total between your six abilities; you might end up having to deplete to use your strongest abilities on your weakest ability score.
- You gain more ability points each time you deplete. You can, using the fact that you get 1/level each time, deplete once to fuel the best ability you can use.
- You actually get some bonuses to ability scores, a la dragon disciple, so the expectation that you deplete doesn't feel like a punishment for doing your job but an expenditure of the additional ability you wouldn't have if you weren't this class in the first place, which can in times of desperation take you below the "Standard" ability score that you would have had otherwise.

I might also, if I go through this route, cause depletion not to affect your DCs (and probably, for simplicity, constitution depletion not to affect your hit points). That way, your DCs are low because you're MAD but high because everything is buffed up, and your desperation play never seems like it's not even worth doing because the DC would be terrible.

Suggestions on this idea would be good?

In general, physical and mental tiredness doesn't work like a finite pool of "wakefulness" that gets dinged throughout the day such that doing a few pullups or a hard math problem in the morning has a noticeable impact on your capabilities in the evening. Rather, slightly strenuous tasks tire you out for a short period of time, more strenuous tasks tire you out for longer, and so on. So a power point pool is definitely out, but you also don't want to necessarily do things with ability scores directly because raising and lowering those frequently is a pain.

So what I'd suggest is something similar to Seerow's old suggestion for 5e fighter superiority dice: Give characters a pool of points that refreshes every round and is enough to perform a minor trick basically indefinitely, then let the character increase the pool for one round at the cost of reducing the pool size thereafter until some rest period, and the larger the temporary increase to the pool, the larger the temporary decrease.

For some concrete numbers, imagine each power costs [3*power level] points to use and you have a pool of [character level] points, so a 5th-level character has a 5-point pool, his 1st-level powers cost 3 points, his 2nd-level powers cost 6 points, and his 3rd-level powers cost 9 points. His pool refreshes every round, so he can use 1st-level powers at will, but he can't use 2nd- or 3rd-level powers at all. However, he can double his pool at the expense of -1 to his pool for a short time thereafter, so he can double his pool to 10 for a round to use a 2nd- or 3rd-level power but after that his pool drops from 5 to 4 until he rests for 5 minutes or whatever.

Which is fine to start, since 1st-level powers cost 3 points so he can keep using those freely. He can increase the pool a second time, this time doubling 4 to 8, which is enough to use a 2nd-level power (cost 6) but not a 3rd-level one (cost 9), after which it goes down to 3 until he rests for 5 minutes. He can increase it a third time to use another 2nd-level power, but then the pool goes down to 2 points and he can't use a 1st-level power without increasing the pool. The pool size over time, and the powers he can use, thus looks something like this: 5 (1st), 5 (1st), 5 (1st), 10 (5x2, 3rd), 4 (1st), 4 (1st), 4 (1st), 8 (4x2, 2nd), 3 (1st), 3 (1st), 3 (1st), 6 (3x2, 2nd), 4 (2x2, 1st), 1, 1, 1...

Let's say he could also exert himself more to triple his pool in exchange for -1 until he rests for an hour (or -2 for 5 minutes, or whatever tradeoff you find acceptable). At that point he can use 3rd- and 2nd-level powers longer, but takes longer to get them back, too. Expand this to whatever multiplier vs. rest time tradeoffs you want to support (maybe high-level characters can perform pretty ridiculous feats of strength or will but then end up in the hospital for a few days), and you get something with a nice curve where you can go for a long time without exerting yourself too hard but if you start pulling out the big guns you reduce your capacity, and do that too much or too often and you're done for the day.

The example numbers were chosen to illustrate the drop in points after every couple power uses, but you can adjust it to taste; a larger pool so that higher-level powers can be freely used, a bigger penalty so stronger powers are more tiring, and so forth.

[Unavenger]

-Snip-

This just seems even more complicated, though! It also seems to encourage going supermegatriplenova about twice or so at the end of combat, safe in the knowledge that it will have basically no drawback to you, while plinking away with (still quite decent!) third-level powers or whatever for the rest of the combat.

I hear you when you say that reduction in ability scores is a pain, which is a reason why I suggest only applying depletion to, say, skill and ability checks, attack and damage rolls and armour class, rather than mucking about recalculating your hit points and save DCs. I don't really want a "Rest for 5 minutes and then you're fine" thing that makes it de facto per encounter, and 3.5 doesn't have a "Short rests" mechanic, but I might make it regenerate slowly out of combat, partly to make you feel as though you're doing something useful while waiting for the wizard to prepare spells in their empty slots.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

This just seems even more complicated, though!

Not really. You're dealing with a single pool of resources whose size and expenditure has no effect on your derived stats. Tracking it is as simple as "You have a bowl of X M&Ms, you can use any ability with a cost lower than the amount of M&Ms, you can double or triple the size if you eat an M&M, you refill your bowl to X after you rest."

Conversely, introducing yet another form of reducing your ability scores (in addition to damage, drain, and burn) causes side effects with reduced stats (which may be different than any other way of reducing your stats), you have to figure out how stat depletion interacts with other forms of ability score reduction (and if it doesn't interact, why involve them directly at all), and so forth.


It also seems to encourage going supermegatriplenova about twice or so at the end of combat, safe in the knowledge that it will have basically no drawback to you, while plinking away with (still quite decent!) third-level powers or whatever for the rest of the combat.

I hear you when you say that reduction in ability scores is a pain, which is a reason why I suggest only applying depletion to, say, skill and ability checks, attack and damage rolls and armour class, rather than mucking about recalculating your hit points and save DCs.

Anything that reduces your combat capabilities is going to encouraging nova-ing to some extent. If depletion applies to attacks, damage, and AC (y'know, the main stats martial types care about), then you're going to use abilities that reduce those values when enemies have been weakened to the point that they won't be in a position to take advantage of the reduction because they'll all be dead.

The difference between the separate resource pool and the stat depletion is that depleting your stats leads to a downward spiral (your attack and damage goes down, so you need to deplete your stats to get temporary bonuses or use an ability that grants bonuses, which makes your attack and damage go down...) so you're encouraged to save it up to the end of combat and nova, whereas the resource pool doesn't penalize your combat numbers for using that resources so you're encouraged to use your abilities as much as possible before nova-ing.


I don't really want a "Rest for 5 minutes and then you're fine" thing that makes it de facto per encounter, and 3.5 doesn't have a "Short rests" mechanic, but I might make it regenerate slowly out of combat, partly to make you feel as though you're doing something useful while waiting for the wizard to prepare spells in their empty slots.

3e actually does have a bunch of abilities that operate on a per-encounter mechanic (barbarian rages, factotum inspiration, ToB maneuvers, and so on), which is defined (where it's defined at all) as a 1-minute rest, so there's plenty of precedent for that. And a single rest where you get to atomically check/uncheck things and be done is going to be easier to use in play than "You regain N points of X type every hour" or a similar gradual recharge, so introducing a new rest mechanic for this wouldn't be a bad thing at all.