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Requilac
2018-12-13, 01:02 AM
Welcome to the chat thread for the Base Class Competitions for D&D 5e. If you wish to say anything about the competition which is neither a submission nor a vote, then it belongs here. You do not need to be a contestant to post here. You are allowed to critique a competitorís work and offer suggestions on how to improve their homebrew through this thread, but it is preferred if you do so through that classí specific thread (if applicable). I will also be holding discussions over what the next competitionís theme should be in here. Let us begin.

Submissions thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?576131-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-V-Time-to-Chill-Out&p=23567807#post23567807
Voting thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579335-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-V-Voting-Thread
Former Competitions
1st contest: Who Needs Swords or Sorcery? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?556338-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-I-Who-needs-Swords-OR-Sorcerery), won by WarrentheHero with the Inventor

2nd contest: Expect a low Margin of Terror (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?560208-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-II-expect-a-low-Margin-of-Terror), Won by Mourne with the Sleepwalker

3rd Contest: The Elements, and not the Periodic Ones (Probably?) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?565360-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-III-The-Elements-and-not-the-periodic-ones-(probably-)!), won By Pygmybatrider with The Shaman

4th contest: Does Not Meet Expectations (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?570496-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-IV-Does-Not-Meet-Expectations), won with a tie by Molemage with the Destined and Pygmybatrider's Mesmer

SunderedWorldDM
2018-12-13, 09:15 AM
Alright! Glad this contest is finally here. I've been thinking about this for a bit, and I think I have my concept: a sort of fighter character, maybe with some magic, who fights by creating a giant icicle and fighting with it. I'll get to work!

GnomishPride
2018-12-13, 09:49 AM
Posting my tentative interest. Weíll see if I can get a build together in time, but at least I have an idea already - Iím thinking something Canada-themed.

Heavenblade
2018-12-13, 11:29 AM
I am definitely interested in submitting something to this...Ill go with a character focused on the winter-ish themes of white fang, if anyone read it. the idea of the cold and winter as the ultimite test of survival. A class of warriors with CON based special abilities, the ultimite tanks/ self healers
it's not themed around WINTER, per se, so Ill go with something else. Ill post as soon as I get the general idea, but probably something shamanic-esque

MoleMage
2018-12-13, 11:48 AM
Even though I changed my vote to this theme I didn't have a set idea in mind at the time, and I still don't have one now. I might try to do something with Fimbulvetr but I'm not sure how that would look as a class as yet.

Heavenblade
2018-12-13, 11:55 AM
Ill submit a class that channels the power of the winter wolves. Barbarian-esque with supernatural abilities related to frost

MoleMage
2018-12-13, 05:27 PM
Even though I changed my vote to this theme I didn't have a set idea in mind at the time, and I still don't have one now. I might try to do something with Fimbulvetr but I'm not sure how that would look as a class as yet.

Nope, doing a Feywild-infused class with abilities influenced by Pokťmon's ice type. Don't ask, I don't know how I got here.

Requilac
2018-12-13, 05:47 PM
I am definitely interested in submitting something to this...Ill go with a character focused on the winter-ish themes of white fang, if anyone read it. the idea of the cold and winter as the ultimite test of survival. A class of warriors with CON based special abilities, the ultimite tanks/ self healers
it's not themed around WINTER, per se, so Ill go with something else. Ill post as soon as I get the general idea, but probably something shamanic-esque

Actually, I think that that a class based around White Fang would make perfect sense here. Sure itís not directly themed about Winter, but White Fang has so much to do with Winter that I would say itís perfectly reasonable. Or at least, no more unreasonable than all of the other classes we have made that loosely for the theme. I wouldnít be so quick to undermine that idea, it has some interesting potential to it and creates an unexpected but reasonable twist on the theme. The only problem I see is trying to distinguish it from the Barbarian.

_______________

So far I think I might have an inkling of a concept, but not much mechanical foundation to it. I am thinking maybe a sort of class that represents the symbolism of Winter more than its physical matter. A sort of shaman that is associated with dormancy, melancholy, silence, darkness and mystery. Itís probably going to be heavily themed around the idea of Unseelie Winter Fey. I donít quite know what mechanics would represent it, but this seems like a start for me.

Also, just to be clear, I am not trying to seem like an edgelord by making all my classes so dark. Itís just that I draw most of my inspiration from more archaic authors, who tend to view magic in a very negative light. To me all the mentions of physical twisting and mysterious forces are bog standard phantasy, so I canít necessarily tell when I am moving outside of the comfort zone of people who are more experienced with modern or pulp fiction. Tell me if it ever seems like I am going too far on the edginess scale, I donít always recognize that my expectations arenít what others share.

superninja109
2018-12-13, 08:25 PM
I think I am going to try to enter this. This looks fun. I'm thinking of a "Hibernomancer" that "hibernates" for one or more turns in order to awaken later with increased power.

MoleMage
2018-12-13, 09:00 PM
And the Wintreborn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23569639&postcount=2)'s first draft is up (PDF on the way)!

I was in a frenzy, so this class has all features and subclass features written, but it needs a balance check from some other pairs of eyes. I was mechanically aiming for something combining the state-dependent mechanics of the barbarian with the all-or-nothing damage output of the rogue, with a variety of odd "wintry" mix-ins for flavor. I think the numbers against normal targets come out okay, but almost all of their damage is cold (a couple of Aurora abilities get psychic and one gets radiant), and Sheer Cold feels like I shoved it in there when a more creative solution didn't present itself immediately. Interested in feedback!

Crim the Cold
2018-12-14, 12:19 PM
And the Wintreborn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23569639&postcount=2)'s first draft is up (PDF on the way)!

I was in a frenzy, so this class has all features and subclass features written, but it needs a balance check from some other pairs of eyes. I was mechanically aiming for something combining the state-dependent mechanics of the barbarian with the all-or-nothing damage output of the rogue, with a variety of odd "wintry" mix-ins for flavor. I think the numbers against normal targets come out okay, but almost all of their damage is cold (a couple of Aurora abilities get psychic and one gets radiant), and Sheer Cold feels like I shoved it in there when a more creative solution didn't present itself immediately. Interested in feedback!

Before I make any other comments on the class I must say that I really like the added fluff in the descriptions. I am not very good at it so it amazes me when other people do it so well.

As for the class itself. I struggled a bit with understanding how you enter Wintreform. Is it only possible using snowcaller? If so that is very limited. Or is it something that the character can take a full round action to do trading action economy early into a fight for greater power after the first round. A bit of clarification there would help greatly. The snowflake winter form seems very underpowered compared to the other two. It has more utility it seems but lacks the combat prowess of the other two. The Aurora form seems the most balanced with a good mix of utility and combat prowess. If this was your goal with the forms (Snowflake = high utility, low combat, Icicle = low utility, high combat, Aurora = mid utility, mid combat) then you have succeeded well.

Hopefully I will be able to complete a class this time. My only problem is my one class idea may be considered too silly or not serious enough and could be disqualified. Its definitely in keeping with one aspect of the spirit of the season. I'm just not sure about it.

MoleMage
2018-12-14, 01:55 PM
Before I make any other comments on the class I must say that I really like the added fluff in the descriptions. I am not very good at it so it amazes me when other people do it so well.

As for the class itself. I struggled a bit with understanding how you enter Wintreform. Is it only possible using snowcaller? If so that is very limited. Or is it something that the character can take a full round action to do trading action economy early into a fight for greater power after the first round. A bit of clarification there would help greatly. The snowflake winter form seems very underpowered compared to the other two. It has more utility it seems but lacks the combat prowess of the other two. The Aurora form seems the most balanced with a good mix of utility and combat prowess. If this was your goal with the forms (Snowflake = high utility, low combat, Icicle = low utility, high combat, Aurora = mid utility, mid combat) then you have succeeded well.

Hopefully I will be able to complete a class this time. My only problem is my one class idea may be considered too silly or not serious enough and could be disqualified. Its definitely in keeping with one aspect of the spirit of the season. I'm just not sure about it.

Right now you enter Wintreform by standing in your snowcaller, and that's the only way to do so until the level 18 Wintreform ability which gives you a way to enter it without snowcaller active. But Wintreform lasts for a minute after you leave snowcaller (an hour starting at level 11), and snowcaller is on a short rest cooldown. I was a little unsure of how much snowcaller to put in, honestly. I might put an additional use on the baseline since it's so essential to the class.

I didn't set out to give the subclasses identities this time so much as I set out to give them themes, but I am okay with having a utility, a combat, and a hybrid since that's how they came out of it.

Requilac
2018-12-14, 11:46 PM
Hopefully I will be able to complete a class this time. My only problem is my one class idea may be considered too silly or not serious enough and could be disqualified. Its definitely in keeping with one aspect of the spirit of the season. I'm just not sure about it.

Disqualified? Don't think so harshly about that. You can only be disqualified for violating one of the already expressly stated rules or a forum rule. Making a class that is too frivolous breaks neither, and it certainly wouldn't get you kicked out or punished. If you have an idea, then go for it, even if it is ridiculous. If you are worried that no one will vote for it, that is another thing, but please do not be concerned about it being illegal.

GnomishPride
2018-12-18, 12:16 AM
Posted the first draft of the Canadian! Still have a ways to go, but I can feel happy that I got something from my head out and into the world. Please, feel free to offer feedback or points of improvement. I noted some points for improvement in the bottommost section labeled "Notes and Change Log", so look there first to see what I know I need to fix and what I don't. Thanks!

Requilac
2018-12-18, 10:45 PM
@ Gnomish Pride

I know that you are acting in humor and not trying to be offensive, but basing an entire class off of an ethnic stereotype may be taken the wrong way. Even if you don't mean to be insulting doesn't mean that others will not find it that way, and I am afraid that any people who are Canadian or know a Canadian will take offense to this. I admit that it would be highly unlikely that anybody will say anything, but this type of perpetuating stereotypes can escalate very quickly into something it wasn't meant to be. I will not explicitly force you to change your class, but I do entreat you to reconsider what you are doing and how it will effect others. Maybe it would be better to change some of the flavor and mechanical elements of your current class around to make it something a little more innocuous, like "the Hockey Player" or "the Lumberjack" instead of "the Canadian"?

GnomishPride
2018-12-19, 01:18 AM
@ Requilac
Youíve got a point there; I admit I didnít fully consider the ramifications of my design choice. Iíll rework it to be more culturally sensitive, most likelt focusing around hockey. I appreciate you informing me of the issue.

Requilac
2018-12-19, 11:10 PM
@ Requilac
Youíve got a point there; I admit I didnít fully consider the ramifications of my design choice. Iíll rework it to be more culturally sensitive, most likelt focusing around hockey. I appreciate you informing me of the issue.

Thank your for listening to me. We can all sometimes lose our sensitivity when talking about something we know very little about unless we carefully monitor ourselves. Just try to steer away from such stereotyping in future competitions and it shouldn't be a problem. Once again, thank you for your consideration and politeness.

pygmybatrider
2018-12-22, 06:05 PM
For what it's worth I personally wouldn't stress about your Canadian, GnomishPride - without delving into politics, ethnicity and nationality are two very different concepts, and I think you'd have to try very hard to find anything to be offended by in a gentle ribbing of largely positive national stereotypes of Canada.

The first draft of the sleighmaster is now up in the submissions thread - and it's exactly what it says on the tin. Choose your sledding team and set off on snowy adventures.

I should have some time today to take a look over the other entries so far - I will edit this post with feedback. 8-)

Requilac
2018-12-22, 09:31 PM
@ Lanth Sor

Warning, your class is against rule 3 of the competition. During the first homebrew competition you wrote a class also called the Primal Gourmand which has nearly identical mechanics to the current one. You are not supposed to post your class in anywhere except for one this current competition and its own specific thread in the Homebrew design subforum of GitP. Normally this would result in disqualification, but I don't believe I made that rule clear enough in its wording so I will not give any punishment. Please make a different class, there will be no other punishment than that. The wording of rule 3 shall be cleared up to stop this mistake from happening in the future. I am sorry for this inconvenience, but I need to ensure that we are all being fair.


For what it's worth I personally wouldn't stress about your Canadian, GnomishPride - without delving into politics, ethnicity and nationality are two very different concepts, and I think you'd have to try very hard to find anything to be offended by in a gentle ribbing of largely positive national stereotypes of Canada.


I don't think there really is such thing as a largely positive stereotype. There may not be something that is blatantly insulting, but if it is tacked onto someone as a personality trait they inherently have and cannot escape and is done with great repetition, it becomes frustrating at the least. I have seen many people who were offended by a seemingly harmless stereotype because everyone brings it up with them. It is also a very slipper slope to fall into, because if positive stereotypes are possible, then the bad ones must be possible too.

So in other words, its not quite the actual stereotyped trait that is in and of itself that is the problem so much as the way it is used and the mentality it creates. Like I said before, I doubt anyone is going to be offended by the Canadian, but you can never really tell with that sort of thing. When in doubt, making something that you know couldn't come across as mocking someone's ethnicity is probably better than something that could.

Anyway, take my comments with a grain of salt. Maybe all those days I have spent around Baltimore have given me an irrational fear of anything that could remotely come across as an ethnic or racial insult. I am no sociologist and cannot give you anything more solid than anecdotal experience.

sengmeng
2018-12-28, 04:55 PM
After mistakenly announcing myself in the 5e subclass contest chat thread, I'd like to do so in the correct one .The Wendigo is complete in my head and about 15% in the thread. Who knew that a winter theme would have two cannibals in it?

sengmeng
2019-01-05, 09:07 AM
Hate to double post, but is this contest going to conclude?

Requilac
2019-01-05, 10:30 PM
Hate to double post, but is this contest going to conclude?

The contest indeed shall be concluded, but not yet. The contest ends at the end of January, not the beginning of it. We give everybody in the contest about two months to make their class.

sengmeng
2019-01-06, 08:39 AM
The contest indeed shall be concluded, but not yet. The contest ends at the end of January, not the beginning of it. We give everybody in the contest about two months to make their class.

Wow I misread that so badly. Thought it was on the same schedule as the subclass contest. I really rushed to hit that December deadline too lol. Oh well, anybody have feedback for the Wendigo?

MoleMage
2019-01-08, 12:06 PM
Feedback for Sleighmaster and Wendigo (leaving off Primal Gourmand for now as it is not approved).


I love the idea here. My main concern is that the class is a little unvaried; other than improvements to the sleigh's early abilities they don't get a lot of ribbons or combat options, even compared to a Fighter. I would give them some survival features spread out through the class. Specific notes to follow.


I would spread out the penalty reduction for not having a hand dedicated to sledding. This is more about feeling logical than a game balance thing, though.
Mush's action cost is too harsh in my opinion. Rangers get most of this as an always-on passive a level sooner, and at the same level as this monks can run on walls or across water. I would make it a "when mounted in sleigh" passive.
I would rather see a more powerful sleigh in place of extra attack. Extra Attack synergizes poorly with Stampede later on as well.
I feel like Biting Cold's shift to cold damage should be optional each time they attack. There's a time when magical slashing damage is nice to have.
Lord of Winter feels weak for a capstone.





Wolf: Pack Tactics feels too strong for a 3rd level feature, but compared to Wolf Totem barbarian it's hard for me to say outright. Improved Pack Tactics also feels too strong for an always-on feature, but at level 10 there are plenty of ways to grant advantage so I'm not too worried about it.
Wolf: Hamstring and Improved Hamstring feel like they should be riders for Sleigh attacks, but are probably more balanced with all attacks.
Wolf: Improved Hamstring is pretty niche, as it only locks down Reaction movement at the moment outside of Opportunity attacks. If this is intentional that's fine, but some clarification for usage intent would be good in the wording.




Reindeer: This is my favorite Team. All of the features feel like they are well planned.




Bear: Ursine Fortitude. Adding Strength to sleigh damage is probably the numerically best level 1 feature, but it also feels like it should be in the baseline class.
Bear: Snowfury. Favorite individual feature.
Bear: Thick Hide doesn't scale well later on, even with Shrug it Off and Resilience. An additional use at some point would make it better.







Excellent use of theme. I've always wanted a sort of "Savage Monk" playstyle and I feel like the Wendigo fills this niche well. Overall I think the utility and defensive features are well balanced, but the damage and healing are a little high. Specific notes follow.


5e class features are normally in the second person (you can do XYZ) rather than third (the Wendigo can do XYZ). I don't personally mind but I had it pointed out to me when I did third person in a pervious contest so I'm passing on the wisdom to you.
The additional Claws attack feels like it should be a bonus action to keep consistency with comparable options such as Two-Weapon fighting or Martial Arts.
I like the Natural Armor feature, but it could be stronger. I would increase it by +1 across the board.
Temporary Hit points without a duration last until the next long rest by default. I would remove the duration from Consume.
Healing abilities are usually capped, whether at half maximum health or by use. I would put an upper limit on healing from Consume (perhaps 5 HP per Wendigo level, to match with Lay on Hands), beyond which they only gain temporary HP. It also should have a ribbon stating that X bodies provides all the food and water necessary for the Wendigo.
Wind Walk's conditional requirement means that Wendigos are rewarded for moving in a disjointed manner, which to me is fantastic as it subtly plays up the unnatural horror aspect.
Disguise Self seems to be added to allow the Wendigo to hide their Savage Transformation. If this is the case, at-will Disguise Self wouldn't be overly strong (warlocks can get it as an invocation at level 2), but a special condition that using their Claws, Consume, or certain other features ended the disguise would be neat.
Rend and Icy Nature should be gained at separate levels. Together they make the level 5 power spike too big.
Quench seems like it should read "non-magical fires" in the first clause. I would remove the reaction option for that clause as well, as there is no trigger condition.
Wind Whisper's save should be Charisma based, not character based.
Spirit Walk: instead of a hard ban on ending your turn in a solid object, I suggest taking damage for ending your turn in a solid object. Compare the Incorporeal Movement ability of a ghost.


Formatting thing: All of your Savage Transformation options give a feature at level 3, which should get its own formatted line instead of being in the description of the option.


Cold Spirit: Ice Claws. The damage of a Wendigo with this feature is too high. They have 1d4+2d6+Str/Dex per claw, and can make up to three claw attacks per turn adding Proficiency damage to one (max 3d4 + 6d6 + 15 or 46.5). Compare the fighter's 2d6+Str twice per turn (4d6+10 or ~24) or the Monk's 1d6+Dex three to four times per turn (max 4d6+20 or ~34) at the same level. A level 6 spirit of cold does almost as much damage with two claws+rend as a fighter does using their action surge.
Cold Spirit: Freezing Blood is too strong in cold regions (similar effects are maxed at half hit point total), and too weak for a tier upgrade outside of them (as it has no effect). I would give passive healing up to half maximum HP at all times, and double the rate in cold regions (also with a max of half hit points, or perhaps increased to 3/4 hit points).
Cold Spirit: Frozen Soul should specify when creatures make the save (Start of Turn, End of Turn, when they enter the affected region, or some combination thereof). I would remove the ability to end the effect as a reaction (as there is no trigger condition) and add a clause specifying that the Wendigo must be conscious for this feature to work (like Paladin auras).




Wind Spirit: Wind Strike. I would limit this to a single claw attack for each creature and require an action to make them. The wording could also be cleaned up ("When you use your Wind Walk feature, you do not provoke Opportunity Attacks. As an action, you can make a single claw attack against each creature adjacent to you at any point during your Wind Walk movement.")
Wind Spirit: Soul Strike. While force is the best damage type other than perhaps radiant, changing the damage type is not sufficient for a full tier upgrade. I would add an extra bonus, perhaps built-in reach.
Wind Spirit: Possession. This is fine, but I would add a once per long rest limit as it duplicates a 6th level spell.




Hunger Spirit level 3 feature. This should require a bonus action investment.
Hunger Spirit: Flesh Glutton. See my note on Consume above; this should draw from the same pool if you implement that change. Otherwise it is fine.
Hunger Spirit: Gorge. This is great, and also a case where Reaction would be appropriate (especially if you move some of the Wendigo's extra attacks to bonus action economy as commented above).
Hunger Spirit: Swallow Whole. I had to look up a creature with Swallow Whole to compare to, but this seems to be in line with those features.


Overall, I think your damage and healing is a little high, but the progression feels good (you've always got some new toy to look forward to). Good work!


I'd be interested in feedback for the Wintreborn if either of you has time in the next couple weeks. I still have to implement Crim the Cold's suggestion of making Wintreform easier to access (haven't decided how to go about that yet), but more feedback is always welcome.

sengmeng
2019-01-09, 06:03 PM
[A very in depth and helpful critique]

Thank you, MoleMage. It seems I was a hit with you thematically but a bit off balance-wise, which doesn't surprise me considering I'm very new to 5th edition. I will be going over my class and your feedback side by side and adjusting. I will keep the third person grammar, however, as it was intended to make the Wendigo seem more alien and monstrous and less like a PC class. I will attempt to give you useful feedback as well, but I doubt I can be as thorough on the raw numbers due to my inexperience.

pygmybatrider
2019-01-13, 08:10 PM
G'day MoleMage - thanks for your feedback, as always it's very useful - hopefully I get around to making a few tweaks before the end of the contest.

I'll have a read through the Wintreborn and edit this post as I go - might have to do it in a few bursts.


Fluff: nicely written, sets the tone well. Feeling agile, airy, mystic, spellcasty - all with a tinge of frost ofc - already.

Class Features: no big dramas here. I like the whip proficiency and choice of Artisan's tools. Skill list/number seems appropriate and thematic.

Chill Dice: reads a little odd in that you're calling for a DC against a scaling D6, but maybe that gets clearer as abilities get filled in later.

Snowcaller: seems cool, useful, and relatively balanced. Can you reduce, say, an ooze to 0 ft movement with this feature?

Ice Shard: a free dagger that you can throw through your ice storm, with a bonus scaling d6 damage for 1 min at a time. Seems somewhere in between rage damage and sneak attack damage, which is probably about right (EDIT: realised it's actually the same as rogue's sneak attack damage. This is a bit tough to balance, as at early levels you'll get to use it a lot less, but at higher levels you will pretty much have it on all the time. My gut says it takes a bit away from the rogue to have their strongest combat feature on another class who also has a bunch of other tools at its disposal). Love the visual of hurling icicles into/out of your snow flurry.

Unarmored Defense: I thought that when we got the third feature you might have a bit of bloat at level 1 - and I definitely think that now you have 4. Mechanically I'm not sure you need it, as the class will want to pump Dex and Cha anyway, but I can see how you might want it from a thematic point of view. Personally I'd drop it, and maybe add in a sort of snow-shield-mystic-ice-veil ability later to represent the winterborn's fey/unseelie nature granting unnatural defenses.


Wintreform: Sounds cool - I always like when subclasses branch off into different explorations of the same base mechanic. If you're standing in your flurry, and get knocked out of Wintreform by losing concentration, do you go straight back into Wintreform at the start of your next turn?

Feytouched: really nice ribbon ability. Well done.

Winter Adaptation: seems solid, nothing out of place here.

ASIs as normal.

Hailcaller: good buff to your base class ability. Racking up some nice AoE on a save/suck basis - will be good for cleaning up goblins etc. My gut is that it's quite strong for at-will, but also only situationally - with a lot of low-con enemies stuck together, and even then only 1-2-3 times per rest. Probably fine as is.

Glaciate: interesting alternative to extra attack. No issues with it, keeps the wintreborn at pace with others when not using flurry.

Wintresight: another nice ribbon. Wish I had thought of some of these!

Blizzard: a decent buff once you include Glaciate. I might be tempted to move this to 11, to match the 5-11-17 tier progression of other classes.

Sheer Cold: seems to come at about the right level.

Snow Warning: appreciate the pokemon reference. I can't really see any issues with this, as there aren't many competing uses for your BA as of yet - unless they come from subclasses.

Improved Wintreform: at least at my table, 2 x 1 hour blocks will pretty much get you through your adventuring day with wintreform always-on.

Unseelie Mind: nice situational buff, feels right.

Ice Beam probably needs some sort of restriction. It's at-will 8d6+ in a large AoE - sure it's a commonly resisted damage type, but it's still better than any cantrip - even an AB EB, which is doing a max of 3d10+15 at this stage.

Ice Block: this seems like a fun and useful ability. I think the Strength check should probably just break the ice completely on a success, as the only creatures who wouldn't do that with half of their max HP would probably be dead or dying from the 2d6/turn anyway.




I will come back to the rest - sorry for how late I am getting back to you!

MoleMage
2019-01-14, 09:03 AM
G'day MoleMage - thanks for your feedback, as always it's very useful - hopefully I get around to making a few tweaks before the end of the contest.

I'll have a read through the Wintreborn and edit this post as I go - might have to do it in a few bursts.

I will come back to the rest - sorry for how late I am getting back to you!

No, this is great! The first thing I'm noticing is that I clearly need to fix up my wording on a lot of features.

Ice Shard: It was intended to be "sneak attack but on a transformation timer instead of always-available condition". I could dial Chill Dice back to be a level or two behind sneak attack progression, which would also mitigate the power of other features such as Hailcaller and Ice Beam (and open up the option for more Snowcaller uses early on, which was something I was considering to make Wintreform easier to utilize). Probably gonna do this actually.

Unarmored Defense: Thematically I wanted this, but it doesn't have any need for it in balance. I'll switch to Light Armor. Icicle and Snowflake both get defense boosts already.

Wintreform: The only limit on entering Wintreform is standing in your Snowcaller, so if you lose concentration while standing in it, you will re-enter it at the start of your next turn. You would lose any benefits of it until then, and all forms give a defensive ability fairly early, so this is still notable. I'm going to do a wording fix on Wintreform as my first priority.

Hailcaller/Ice Beam: Since these are limited to once per Snowcaller (and Ice Beam ends the Snowcaller, preventing Hailcaller if you did them in that order), I didn't consider them at-wills, but X/sr abilities. Line is also arguably the weakest shape, especially with only 60 feet, which helps compensate for Ice Beam's rider. Changes to Chill Dice progression will address this as noted above.

Blizzard: Originally this was part of Snow Warning, but it was too many distinct effects on one feature, so I split it off into a separate feature. I might swap it with Improved Wintreform though.

Snow Warning: I had a list of ice-type Pokemon moves open in a second tab while I was designing the chassis of the class. The fluff and associated Fey abilities came later, actually.

Improved Wintreform: At this point, you should be able to keep Wintreform up any time you need it, yes. But you still have to make Concentration checks for it, and importantly, Wintreform isn't the crux of the class's damage potential, instead expanding options (some damage does come from it, but the bread and butter is Snowcaller, which retains its original limits). Would this be better if I did the opposite (remove Concentration and give a lesser boost to duration?).

Ice Block: The line should read "half of the ice block's maximum HP" (so it takes two successful saves to remove the block, not considering outside action). I'll fix it.

Ribbon stuff: It looks like for once I got my ribbons in the right place. Fourth time is the charm, right?

pygmybatrider
2019-01-16, 02:47 PM
Gonna try and finish the rest of the features this morning. Bub is teething so up early!

I must have missed Ice Beam & co being tied to Snowcaller - that definitely tones down the at-will. I think I was also getting my lines crossed between Snowcaller and Wintreform re: Imp Wintreform; so sorry for the confusion there. Ice Block makes sense that way!


Unending Snow: I might be getting confused again but it seems a little redundant to have unlimited max duration on an in-combat ability that automatically triggers every time you enter combat. I guess you could use it like a scouting familiar though - I put the flurry 60 feet ahead. Watch how many Constitution saves your DM makes...

Snowflake Wintreform
The subclass for millenials! Its Wintreform Improvement makes sense - floaty flakey snow - and again the wording gives some of the benefits of flying without breaking the game. I think you've found a happy medium with the wording here. Snowflake Dancer continues the nice ribbon theme. Snow Cloak: alright, a nice defensive buff for a mostly-offensive class. +2 AC is nothing to sneeze at, esp with the disadvantage on ranged attacks that comes with snowcaller, but doesn't feel OP due to limited uses - especially with the removal of Unarmored Defense. I love the idea of Perfect Symmetry, but I'd have to do the math on the numbers. You're already receiving scaling damage through Ice Shard, have the potential to use your BA to dual wield, and then use your reaction on top. I'd also feel a bit weird interrupting my mate's turn to roll my own dice - it might work more smoothly to keep the same fluff but change it to using your reaction to allow an ally to make one additional attack? Possibly a limited number of times per rest; not sure about the dmg potential. Avalanche is a nice get out of jail card for those baddies who've slipped through - the pushback should probably be worded "shoved up to 10 feet", and I'm not sure you need the +Cha on top of 4d6. Slush Rush is a cool and fitting capstone. Can you fly 60 feet straight up in the air? Or at a 45 degree angle to land on a ledge?

Icicle Wintreform: seems like the bruiser archetype. Its [/b]Wintreform Improvement[/b] seems strong at first glance, but unless there's a bunch of melee class features, also seems like it won't come up that often. Seems like 6th is the defensive boost level, with Ice Body filling that role nicely for the Icicle Wintreform. Can you still use your BA to dual wield after using Icicle Spear to hit 2 targets? Ice Flesh makes you suitable tanky against mobs of lesser baddies. Icicle Crash should probably specify a range - eg within 5 feet - to make the spell attack roll, as Thorn Whip is a melee spell attack roll with a 30 ft range. The wording about not using it while in Wintreform causing you to enter Wintreform and then not being able to Icicle Crash outside Wintreform again made sense eventually but I had to read it a couple times.

Aurora Wintreform: has my favourite level 2 features. Aurora Veil is oddly (for 5e, not for the theme) specific but feels about right for the power level. Aurora Beam is a cool feature, essentially a +1 die sized Vicious Mockery. I think you could probably build the scaling into the feature rather than having the reader scroll back to Glaciate - eg start at 2d6, increases to 3 at 11 and 4 at 17. Hypnotize reads the same as Command to me. One use of a level 1 spell per rest seems kind of weak to me. I might buff it to cast Suggestion once per rest, or maybe Command Cha mod times per rest. Dazzling Gleam feels a little similar to Icicle Crash in that it's another action-for-damage capstone, though their uses are probably different enough for two cowboys to live in this town.



This is a really cool class, MoleMage. It seems pretty well thought out and considered overall - and the mechanics seem fun and unique enough to carry the class. It'd be fun to test it out on the table! I think my main worry would be about how slow Snowflurry starts out and then picks up in uses as you level up - there might be some noticably swingy levels in there. Wouldn't stop me from trying though :)

MoleMage
2019-01-16, 03:18 PM
This is a really cool class, MoleMage. It seems pretty well thought out and considered overall - and the mechanics seem fun and unique enough to carry the class. It'd be fun to test it out on the table! I think my main worry would be about how slow Snowflurry starts out and then picks up in uses as you level up - there might be some noticably swingy levels in there. Wouldn't stop me from trying though :)

Thanks for all the feedback! I'm tackling some of the concerns in this post presently.

Ice Shard It's worth noting that dual wield actually isn't compatible with Ice Shard (you're making an attack as part of the action, not making the dagger as part of the attack action). Should I change that? Or maybe up the damage of the baseline shard to 1d6/1d8 to compensate for the loss of the dual wield?
Unending Snow No longer gives infinite duration snowcaller, merely a free snowcaller every combat via Snow Warning. The purpose of giving in infinite duration in addition to free uses every combat was originally because you have to refresh it to use Hailcaller/Ice Beam, but you still retain the Ice Shard benefits and ability to enter Wintreform from the baseline flurry after using Hailcaller. All that together is a little more complex and munchkin-friendly than this capstone needed to be.

Perfect Symmetry is odd, but I feel like it is fine. It basically lets you make Opportunity attacks more easily, except using your allies' stats.
Avalanche lost the Cha bonus to damage and added "up to".
Slush Rush clarified: you can use it to go straight up or at an angle. It also now carries a caveat that you fall up to 60 feet at the start of your next turn without taking damage, so you can't use it to fly freely (though honestly I might just give them flight while in Wintreform as a rider on this feature).


Icicle Spear As with the note above, dual wield already didn't work with Ice Shard. If I change that, I will likewise clarify Icicle Spear.
Icicle Crash now has a range.

Aurora Beam Glaciate damage now folded into the feature. In order to prevent it getting an upgrade just one level later, the damage from level 11 Glaciate is now baseline, and in order to compensate for the frequency of snowcaller and allow it to compete with Ice Shard at later levels, I made the level 17 buff 5d6 instead of 4d6. It is now generally the better option when snowcaller is down (it does strictly speaking do less damage assuming +5 dex, but with the rider it should still be strong).
Hypnotize left as-is, because it isn't rest-limited but instead target-limited. If I fight 10 guys over the course of a day, I can successfully use this feature 10 times. I can also spam it against one target until it works (need someone to drop the macguffin so the rogue can grab it and cheese out? As long as you can keep up with him you'll succeed eventually).

EDIT: While updating the links, I also added in the rest of the first page (origins, creating, quick create), gear, and adjusted Ice Shard. The bonus damage for attacking a target inside a Snowcaller now applies to all weapon attacks and is in the Snowcaller description (Glaciate is still Ice Shard only), and Ice Shard now replaces up to a single weapon attack each turn, allowing for dual-wielding with it and the ability to benefit from Extra Attack multiclass (though much like rogue this just gives more opportunities for bonus damage at the cost of the actual amount of bonus damage). It actually encourages being used as your Bonus Action now, because it grants the two-weapon fighting style for itself only. Icicle Spear now has simpler wording that allows the targeting of a second target as part of the Ice Shard attack (meaning even bonus action Ice Shards), and limits Glaciate to one of the two targets (You could get Snowcaller bonus damage and Glaciate bonus damage in the same round but only on different targets). No longer limiting Glaciate as I have nerfed Chill Dice slightly more (it is now behind sneak attack by an amount equal to the damage of Glaciate).

Perfect Symmetry also got a buff from the changes as it is now a reliable way to get a second boost of Snowcaller bonus damage (like giving rogues a reliable way to opportunity attack). In a bit of accidental irony, the Snowflake Wintreborn is now unexpectedly the only Dex-based class that could benefit from the Great Weapon Master feat, though it comes one contest too late. Perfect Symmetry was allowing Snowflake (assuming a GWFighting ally) to perform at a rate comparable to Rogue with two-weapon fighting AND reliable Reaction attacks. However, the Rogue is performing under the assumption that they give up their ideal rotation to do this (dual-wielding locks them out of Cunning Action) while the Snowflake is performing under the assumption of their ideal rotation (Action to Attack w/Snowcaller, Bonus Action Glaciated Ice Shard, Reaction to use Perfect Symmetry). As a temporary fix, I've limited Perfect Symmetry to Glaciate. This means that Snowflake Wintreborn can more easily devote all of their actions to dealing damage, but the Rogue can outperform them if they get a Reaction sneak attack, even without needing to use two-weapon fighting.

Requilac
2019-01-23, 11:22 AM
There is only 12 hours left in the competition everybody, so if you have any final adjustments to make do them now and do them quickly.

MoleMage
2019-01-23, 12:16 PM
There is only 12 hours left in the competition everybody, so if you have any final adjustments to make do them now and do them quickly.

When did this sneak up on me?!

It's alright though. I think I had implemented all the changes I described previously, I just had to push those updates to the gmbinder and PDF links. Three entries then? I guess contestants only get two votes unless someone rushes in here with a last-minute submission.

Requilac
2019-01-24, 11:43 PM
Voting is now open and a link to the thread can be found here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579335-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-V-Voting-Thread)


When did this sneak up on me?!

It's alright though. I think I had implemented all the changes I described previously, I just had to push those updates to the gmbinder and PDF links. Three entries then? I guess contestants only get two votes unless someone rushes in here with a last-minute submission.

Yes, that is a good Idea. I will make a 1st place vote worth three points and a second place vote worth 1 point, giving some further weight to peoples' favored option.

Requilac
2019-01-30, 10:31 AM
Last day for voting everybody, if you have any votes to make you will have to do it now or never.

Requilac
2019-02-01, 11:20 PM
Alright everybody, the voting period has come to an end, and our winner is Molemage with the Wintreborn. He has won with twice as many points than any other other entry in the competition. Well done Molemage, that sweeping success I think is unprecedented in the history of the D&D 5e base class contests.

And our next competition's theme shall be monsters represented as PC classes. Technically speaking time got two votes before monsters did, but Crim the Cold explicitly stated that time was his second vote, so I think monsters as PC classes is a better one to go with it as it was two people's first choices. I will be waiting a week or so to let conversation on this competition peter out and then I shall submit the threads for the next one. I know that a couple of competitions back some people suggested making a brief gap in time between two contests, and I think it is a good idea to go with here.

MoleMage
2019-02-10, 02:49 PM
Well this is pretty neat, I actually won one!

Appreciate all the good feedback from everyone. Looking forward to the monster contest. I'm thinking of doing Golems myself, but I'm not 100% attached if someone else was set on golems.

Carl
2019-02-11, 03:02 AM
I'm considering entering as well. Assuming no one else wants it i'd like to take a swing at the liche. never done 5e hombrew before so going to be interesting and a little tricky to throw together for me. but my 3.5e rework/rewrite write up is stalled with writers block and a good way around that from past experiance is to focus on another project for a little bit. I have done as much reading up of 5e as the SRD allows however.

Requilac
2019-02-15, 05:50 PM
Alright everybody, it took me forever to get it done, but done I got it. Competition number six: Time to Kill (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?581138-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-VI-we-ve-got-time-to-kill&p=23711126#post23711126) is underway! Go on over to it whenever you all are ready.

Carl
2019-02-15, 08:20 PM
Well there went my idea. DoH!. Gonna have to see what will come to mind...

Requilac
2019-02-16, 07:05 PM
In the sixth contest I incorrectly stated that the theme would be time, when it shouldnít have been. The theme has been changed to monsters as PC classes.