2 Doors riddle in a campaign

[fuzziemanbob]

so I am running a campaign and I it I want there to be 2 paths that are guarded by 2 creatures. one path has imminent death, and the other leads through the mountain, and one of these guards can only tell the truth to the letter and the other can only lie to the letter. I was wondering what these creatures should be. what do you guys think? the sooner the response the better.

[Laird]

so I am running a campaign and I it I want there to be 2 paths that are guarded by 2 creatures. one path has imminent death, and the other leads through the mountain, and one of these guards can only tell the truth to the letter and the other can only lie to the letter. I was wondering what these creatures should be. what do you guys think? the sooner the response the better.

You should make them animated snake statues. One can have a polearm and the other a great scimitar (reskinned greatsword).
Snakes are cunning and deceitful in a lot of lore and if it's in a temple or dungeon guarding doors they fit thematically. You could ahve the liar sound normal and the one that tells the truth sound more snakey. 'He's the liar!" vs He'ssssss the liar!". would make them distrustful of the truth-teller and seems to be a malign trick of the creators to 'be honest with deceit.' Very slippery and sneaky :)

[Eriol]

so I am running a campaign and I it I want there to be 2 paths that are guarded by 2 creatures. one path has imminent death, and the other leads through the mountain, and one of these guards can only tell the truth to the letter and the other can only lie to the letter. I was wondering what these creatures should be. what do you guys think? the sooner the response the better.
It's a classic puzzle for a reason, just make sure they don't take this approach: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0327.html

So it's in the comic of the webpage you're on man.

[Lunali]

Classic answer "Which door would the other one say is safe?" Choose the other door.

If you think your players don't know the solution, go ahead and use it, otherwise don't bother unless you come up with some way of circumventing the classic solution. My personal favorite is that both are perfectly capable of lying and whatever it was that indicated that they always told the truth/lied was deliberately incorrect. Though if you go that route, it shouldn't be instantly fatal to get it wrong. Another option is https://xkcd.com/246/.

[Ganymede]

The "creatures" are Magic Mouths attached to the doors.

That said, I'm not sure hiding a party wipe behind one of the doors is a good idea.

[fuzziemanbob]

You should make them animated snake statues. One can have a polearm and the other a great scimitar (reskinned greatsword).
Snakes are cunning and deceitful in a lot of lore and if it's in a temple or dungeon guarding doors they fit thematically. You could ahve the liar sound normal and the one that tells the truth sound more snakey. 'He's the liar!" vs He'ssssss the liar!". would make them distrustful of the truth-teller and seems to be a malign trick of the creators to 'be honest with deceit.' Very slippery and sneaky :)

thanks thats an awesome idea. i realy apreate the answar. i will probably use this:smalltongue::smallbiggrin:

[fuzziemanbob]

The "creatures" are Magic Mouths attached to the doors.

That said, I'm not sure hiding a party wipe behind one of the doors is a good idea.

that's fair, i wasnt planing it to be a party wipe. tks for the feedback tho

[fuzziemanbob]

It's a classic puzzle for a reason, just make sure they don't take this approach:

So it's in the comic of the webpage you're on man.

lol i really hope not

[Biggstick]

My personal favorite is that both are perfectly capable of lying and whatever it was that indicated that they always told the truth/lied was deliberately incorrect.

This is a phenomenal adaptation for Players that have seen it all. I will most certainly use it in the future!

[Laserlight]

If both guardians lie, then your party doesn't have any information to make a decision from*, and there's no reason to have the guardians. It's "You come to a fork in the road, and there are a couple of monsters there."

*unless they have Detect Thoughts, Zone of Truth, a good Insight skill, etc

[Derpy]

I'm not sure how it would work out logically, but maybe there is a hidden third door or false wall, so even if one is lying and one is truth telling it still throws the party for a loop. I'd avoid TPK for such trickery, but there are a lot if fun things you can do to the players without killing them.

[Keravath]

Keep in mind that for the puzzle to work the characters MUST know that one of the creatures always tells the truth while the other one always lies. If they don't have that piece of information, they can't figure it out.

If they ask them if they tell the truth then they both say they tell the truth and if they ask them if the other one tells the truth then they both say the other one lies.

However, there are also other ways around the puzzle. Say to each creature "My name is John. What is my name?" ... one will give the correct answer and the other will lie.

So the puzzle is additionally constrained by limiting it to one question while knowing that one always tells the truth and the other lies.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Door mimics.

[Lunali]

This is a phenomenal adaptation for Players that have seen it all. I will most certainly use it in the future!

Another personal favorite is messing with the Towers of Hanoi puzzle. Assuming the players are familiar with the puzzle, set the maximum number of allowed moves to one less than the proper solution. However, instead of telling them that they can only move one ring at a time, you tell them that they can only make one move at a time. People familiar with the puzzle will usually wrack their brains trying to figure out what they're doing wrong, people that have never seen it may complete it in a single move.

[rahimka]

A few thoughts:

1) An often forgotten essential part of this riddle is that you only get to ask ONE question of ONE guard.

Since this is D&D, maybe asking the question activates a VERY DANGEROUS trap or CHALLENGING combat encounter. If the party got the exact right question, they know which door to flee through in order to escape. If they didn't figure it out, they can risk the wrong door -or- deal with the encounter and keep trying (and have to face the danger AGAIN when they do)

2) If you want to avoid brute-forcing the problem through trial-and-error or splitting the party, put a "magic seal" on the doors so they have to pick ONE (by opening it, declaring their choice to the guardian, etc) and the other becomes a non-option when they do (it fades out of existence, crumbles away leaving a blank wall, etc).

Or maybe part of the premise they are given is that to "unlock" the door they want to open, they have to fight that particular guardian. Some being which is obviously challenging/dangerous enough that trying to take on TWO of them is clearly a terrible idea (though maybenot a guaranteed TPK)

3) This really is a very well known riddle. So unless you are SURE none of your players know it, you have got to put some kind of twist on the premise.

a) It's been mentioned above that you can have the premise be faulty by making both guards capable of honesty/deceit. Maybe the set-up is an inscription in the room (what kind of foolish adventurer would actually trust THAT?!).

Maybe there's a hint to your players in that the guards themselves deliver the set-up (so logically they can't be accurately describing the honesty/deceit premise). Describe how they speak in unison or alternate sentences. Try to be subtle about it, so the players don't catch on IMMEDIATELY that the premise is false. Weave it into a flavorful description of the guards and their voices and the room itself.

b) Maybe there's a third guard/creature in the room. They present themselves as a neutral observer/overseer (a solemn monk, a speaking statue, etc), who provides the riddle. But really they are not what they seem (a trickster in disguise, an imp hiding inside the hollow statue, etc) and only there to mess with the party (for laughs or as a test of wits/cleverness): they can switch the doors, switch the guards, make the doors loop back to the same room (even if the party "solved" the riddle"), etc.

The puzzle becomes the party realizing this 3rd party is the one they need to defeat/negotiate with.

[Malifice]

If both guardians lie, then your party doesn't have any information to make a decision from*, and there's no reason to have the guardians. It's "You come to a fork in the road, and there are a couple of monsters there."

*unless they have Detect Thoughts, Zone of Truth, a good Insight skill, etc

You dont understand the riddle.

One guardian ALWAYS lies. The other one ALWAYS tells the truth. Both guardians are identical, and you cant tell them apart. You dont know which one lies, or which one tells the truth.

Behind them lies two doors. One door leads to certain doom. The other door leads to freedom. Also both doors are identical. No way of telling them apart.

You get to ask the guardians 1 question. Only 1 question. Not 1 question each guardian; 1 question total. After that single question, you're on you're own.

Again; there is no way of telling the guardians apart. All you know is one always lies, and one always tells the truth. You dont know which one always lies, or which one tells the truth.

Solution:

You ask the guardian (it doesnt matter which one): 'If I were to ask your friend over there (indicates towards the other guardian), which door leads to freedom, which door would he say?'

At this point either: 1) you've asked the liar guardian (and he's lying about the other one telling the truth, so he's pointing at the 'certain death' door and not the freedom door which you asked him to do) or 2) you've asked the truthful guardian (and he's telling the truth about the other one lying, and is also pointing at the 'certain death' door and not the freedom door).

In any event, you pick the other door.

Get how it works?

[Zhorn]

Knights and Knaves, an old as dirt puzzle, but a good one when done well.
me thinks Malifice is a fellow Samurai Jack fan :smallbiggrin:

[Malifice]

Knights and Knaves, an old as dirt puzzle, but a good one when done well.
me thinks Malifice is a fellow Samurai Jack fan :smallbiggrin:

Grumbles in my neckbeard.

I remember hearing it first from Dr Who.

When this was the Doctor:

http://www.flickfilosopher.com/wptest/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/doctorwhoscarf.gif

Have used it in my campaigns a few times. No group has ever gotten it yet.

[Malifice]

Here we go:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W90s58LtYhk

[Reynaert]

You dont understand the riddle.

One guardian ALWAYS lies. The other one ALWAYS tells the truth. Both guardians are identical, and you cant tell them apart. You dont know which one lies, or which one tells the truth.

Behind them lies two doors. One door leads to certain doom. The other door leads to freedom. Also both doors are identical. No way of telling them apart.

You get to ask the guardians 1 question. Only 1 question. Not 1 question each guardian; 1 question total. After that single question, you're on you're own.

Again; there is no way of telling the guardians apart. All you know is one always lies, and one always tells the truth. You dont know which one always lies, or which one tells the truth.

Solution:

You ask the guardian (it doesnt matter which one): 'If I were to ask your friend over there (indicates towards the other guardian), which door leads to freedom, which door would he say?'

At this point either: 1) you've asked the liar guardian (and he's lying about the other one telling the truth, so he's pointing at the 'certain death' door and not the freedom door which you asked him to do) or 2) you've asked the truthful guardian (and he's telling the truth about the other one lying, and is also pointing at the 'certain death' door and not the freedom door).

In any event, you pick the other door.

Get how it works?

You ask the guardian: "If I were to ask you which door leads to freedom, which door would you say?" and just take the door that he sais. (the liar would lie about what he would say (which would be a lie) and thus give the true answer)

But the whole two-guardians puzzle is an enormous cliche, which you should only put in if it is an intentional cliche; a different spin would be to have a magic mouth on each door with a preprogrammed phrase, which together form a logic puzzle.

[Zhorn]

Grumbles in my neckbeard.

I remember hearing it first from Dr Who.

Have used it in my campaigns a few times. No group has ever gotten it yet.

Ah, a man of culture I see.
my reference being

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBEEBXsFeRk
but of course, the true way to apply this riddle
https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/images/2/26/labyrinth_puzzle.png

[NaughtyTiger]

You dont understand the riddle.

You dont understand the context.

Laserlight was responding to Lunali's suggestion, in which Lunali changed the way the puzzle worked.
You argued with Laserlight for agreeing with you.

[hamishspence]

You could always dig up Raymond Smullyan's What Is The Name of The Book?, which has many more complex variations on the puzzle, and use some of those.

Such as "they understand you, but only speak their own language."