PDA

View Full Version : D&D 3.x Other The Bladesinger



CopperElfCleric
2018-12-17, 12:27 PM
The Bladesinger Created by CEV and Diffan.

Bladesingers are practitioners of the original elven martial art known as the "Bladesong". Once upon a time, they were a proud and noble caste of warrior-mages who traveled the countryside in order to defend the elven way of life. Sadly in this more modern age, they are a dying breed. They are little more than living myths and legends of a bygone era, having slowly been usurped by a simpler and profoundly less elegant "art" of sword magic. While there are still a handful of true bladesingers in the world, they are without doubt in the twilight of their existence.


The "Bladesong"

The Bladesong -- the true bladesong, not that foul atrocity of sword magic that has usurped the name -- is an extremely demanding martial art, the epitome of Tel'Quessir mastery of the sword, and one that is never taught to those lacking pure Tel'Quessir blood. Unlike the martial arts of other races, this elven fighting style emphasizes beauty and economy of movement over sheer destructive power. However, the elven bladesong is deceptively dangerous, for all its seeming gentleness and apparent grace. It is a primarily defensive style of combat, with devastating strikes considered less important than a superior guard position. From this superior defensive posture, magical attacks and spells may be used without fear of successful counter-attack when performed by a Tel'Quessir fully proficient in the style. In addition to the violent purpose inherent to all martial arts, the bladesong is uniquely Tel'Quessir in the fact that the aesthetic components of the style are as important as it's martial efficacy, with its dance-like movements and the haunting whistling sounds produced by the sword blade cutting through the air being the source of the name bladesong.

Those who practice the true bladesong appear as if they are dancing when they fight. Their movements seem misleadingly slow and elegant, deflecting opponents' blades while lazily drifting back to score hits themselves. True bladesingers do not believe in smashing blows or strong and crushing offense, but rather in guiding their opponents to anticipate a different attack entirely, thus overbalancing the foe and making him seem clumsy.

Organization and Society

While the true bladesingers group themselves into overlapping guilds and knighthoods as an institution, they normally do not travel together in groups, but instead wander separately to better spread the ways of the Tel'Quessir and defend the ways of elvenkind, roving from one elven settlement to the next as troubleshooters, and dealing with whatever problems they come across, honor-bound to come to the aid of any elf in distress they come across. In their travels they are treated with the utmost respect and admiration by the elves they meet, being treated as heroes in the communities they enter, much as a human Paladin would be in a human village. They are the champions of the Tel'Quessir, the Knights of The People and defenders of the elven way of life, practicing an ancient and honored elven art and giving their lives if necessary to defend elven society, and they are accorded status of heroes and the respect such due such a station whenever they are encountered.

On rare occasions, bladesingers have been known to forgo their wandering ways and settle down in a large elven community. There they offer themselves to a powerful and well-respect elven house, serving as a bodyguard and staunch defender of the elven way of life.

Becoming a Bladesinger

“One does not choose to become a bladesinger; one is chosen to become a bladesinger!”
In a bygone age when bladesingers were more common, a true bladesinger would return home to the academy that trained them, offering themselves as a master, and thus training entire classes of Tel'quessir to take their mantle. Now in the twilight years of a dying artform, the few remaining bladesingers instead spend their final years questing for a suitable apprentice to follow in their footsteps. Once found, they test them in subtle ways, judging them on whether or not they are upstanding examples of the elven way of life, and whether or not they have the gods-granted talent to hear the bladesong within.

Entry Requirements
BAB: +4
Race: Elf or Half Elf (any subrace except drow).
Skills: Perform (Dance) 8 ranks, Tumble 8 ranks.
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Weapon Finesse.
Spellcasting: Able to cast 1st-level evocation and abjuration arcane spells.
Special: Must have received training by another master of the true bladesong.


Class Skills (6 + Int modifier per level)
Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Wis), Jump (Str), Knowledge (any, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex),
Perform (Cha), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex)

Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: A bladesinger is proficient in all simple and martial weapons, as well as light and medium armor.

Spellcasting: At the indicated levels, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. You do not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If you had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a true bladesinger, you must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining spells per day, caster level, and spells known.

Elven Sword-Mastery: At 1st level, a Bladesinger can add her Dexterity bonus, if any, to damage when using a longsword, shortsword, rapier, saber, elven courtblade, elven thinblade, elven lightblade or dagger. In addition, she gains the Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization feats with these weapons, without meeting any prerequisites.

Bladesong (Ex): Your first lesson as a bladesinger is on how to become one with both your martial prowess and your spellcasting artistry. You are now able to cast cantrips and 1st level spells and wield your weapon at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, except that your off-hand weapon is actually a spell rather than a second weapon. You gain the ability to cast higher spells in this manner as indicated on the table. When you wield a weapon in one hand and nothing in the other, you can combine a spell and weapon attacks into a single action. As a standard action, you can make one melee attack and cast a spell with a casting time of no more than 1 standard action. As a full-round action, you can make a full attack and cast a spell with a casting time of no more than 1 full-round action. You make all of your normal attacks with your main hand and any melee or ranged touch attacks with your off-hand at a -2 penalty. You are treated as if you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for purposes of meeting prerequisites.

Balance of Steel and Spell (Ex): At 1st level a bladesinger learns how to use the bladesong itself to take the place of your somatic and material components in combat. You gain the Somatic Weaponry feat (detailed in Complete Mage). This feat only applies to your abjuration and evocation spells, plus one other school of spells of your choice. At 3rd level, this ability expands to include the Combat Casting feat as well.

Spellgrace (Ex): At 2nd level, whenever you are subject to a magical effect that allows a Reflex or Will save for a reduced effect, you suffer no effect on a successful save.

Spring Attack: At 2nd level, you gain the Spring Attack feat, even if you do not meet the prerequisites.

Sylvan Performance (Ex): At 3rd level, you have made your first foray into learning the steps of the true bladesong and may now use your Perform (Dance) skill in place of any Balance, Concentration, Jump, or Tumble checks.

Spellsong (Su): At 4th level, while in combat you gain spell resistance equal to 5 + your effective caster level against spells from the Abjuration, Evocation, and one additional school of your choice.

Armored Mage (Ex): At 5th level you can cast arcane spells in light armor without incurring the normal spell failure chance.

Improved Spellgrace (Ex): At 5th level, whenever you are subject to a magical effect that allows a Reflex or Will save for a reduced effect, you suffer only the reduced effect even on a failed save.

Harmony of the Blade (Ex): By 6th level, your mastery of the true bladesong grows greater still. In combat, you are treated as if you possess both Spell Focus (Evocation) and Greater Spell Focus (Evocation) while wielding a sword in your main hand and nothing in your off-hand.

Quick Substitution: At 7th level, you gain Energy Substitution as a bonus feat with which you may spontaneously convert any of your evocation spells without increasing the casting time. Each morning you may change which energy subtype this feat uses in much the same way a wizard prepares his spells.

Astute Balance (Ex): At 8th level you gain a competence bonus equal to your Dexterity modifier for caster level checks made to overcome spell resistance, but only when casting spells affected by your Balance of Steel and Spell class ability.

Whirring bladesong (Ex): At 9th level your grace in battle has advanced to the point to where you are a blur of whirring death. You gain the Whirlwind Attack feat, even if you do not normally qualify for it. You can only use the feat while you are performing the bladesong. You lose the benefit of this feature if you are wielding anything in your off-hand.

True Bladesong: At 10th level, your mastery of the bladesong is complete. You are treated as if you have both the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting feats for purposes of your bladesong class feature. Finally, you can cast a second spell in melee combat with a casting time of no more than 1 full round, as a free action. This feature does not stack with Quicken Spell.

Maximized Spelldance (Su): At 10th level, while in melee combat,the strength of your abjuration and evocation spells are exceptionally potent. When casting such a spell, you may apply the effects of the Maximized Spell metamagic feat. You can apply this feature a number of times per day equal to 1 + your Dexterity modifier (at least once per day). In addition, you gain a competence bonus on the saving throw DCs of any spells affected by your balance of steel and spell class feature equal to your Dexterity modifier. This feature can be applied as a free action 1/day. This reflects the natural grace and eloquence in which you have learned to unleash your spells in battle.

Table: The Bladesinger

Hit Die: d6

Level BAB F R W Special Spellcasting
================================================== ================================================== ================================================== ==================================
1st +1 +0 +2 +2 Elven Sword Mastery, Bladesong (cantrips and 1st level spells}, Balance of Steel and Spell
2nd +2 +0 +3 +3 Spellgrace, Spring Attack, +1 level in an existing arcane spellcaster class
3rd +3 +1 +3 +3 Sylvan Performance +1 level in an existing arcane spellcaster class
4th +4 +1 +4 +4 Spellsong, +1 level in an existing arcane spellcaster class
5th +5 +1 +4 +4 Armored Mage, Improved Spellgrace, Bladesong (2nd & 3rd level spells)
6th +6 +2 +5 +5 Harmony of the Blade, +1 level in an existing arcane spellcaster class
7th +7 +2 +5 +5 Quick Substitution +1 level in an existing arcane spellcaster class
8th +8 +2 +6 +6 Astute Balance +1 level in an existing arcane spellcaster class
9th +9 +3 +6 +6 Whirring Bladesong
10th +10 +3 +7 +7 True Bladesong (4th & 5th level spells), Maximised Spelldance +1 level in an existing arcane spellcaster class

khadgar567
2018-12-17, 01:30 PM
Eighter you have new character or yout party is going epic.

CopperElfCleric
2018-12-17, 02:32 PM
Eighter you have new character or yout party is going epic.

Yes, our campaign has taken us past level 20, but we've always played a heavy magic game for years now. I created this PrC because every single bladesinger PrC created in 3 and 3.5ED was very weak and nothing like the 2ED AD&D bladesinger kit.

Maat Mons
2018-12-18, 09:03 PM
I feel like, anyone who wanted to go the finesse rout would have taken the Weapon Finesse feat long before they get their 1st level in this class. So it really makes no sense to give it as a bonus feat. Either players suffer through all their earlier levels without the cornerstone of their combat style, or they take Weapon finesse right away, and then retrain it once they get this class feature.

It would make more sense, for example, to have Weapon Finesse as a prerequisite, and then give the ability to apply the benefit of the feat to longswords. Or to whatever non-finesse-able weapons your particular subrace gives proficiency with. Or give the ability to use Dexterity instead of Strength on damage with finesse weapons. (Including tha ability to ignore any Strength penalty you might have.)

Weapon Specialization is way too specific to serve as a prerequisite. For the most part, that requires 4 levels in Fighter. What about those who want to enter Bladesinger with Ranger, Swashbuckler, or really, anything other than fighter?

Bladesong seems needlessly convoluted. I don't remember if the 3.5 prestige class used similar wording. But in any case, you should streamline things.

I don't see why Still Spells should be a requirement for Bladesong. You have a hand free. That's all you need for somatic components.

Why would a Bladesinger gain an ability based on Silent Spell?

Instead of giving Still Spell, why not give the ability to cast in light armor with no arcane spell failure chance? It seems a tad more elven than an ability that encourages wearing fullplate.

Songstep should really just be called Evasion. At least Prescient Sense functioned slightly differently. This is the exact same ability as Evasion, just with a different name.

Elvish Grace is, on all fronts bizarre. But I'm going to focus on the fact that the spellcasting portion of it is useful only to prepared casters. Sorcerers get nothing from it. You do know that Sorcerer is the favored class of some elven subraces, right?

Ah yes, there's the ability that lets elves use a longsword with finesse. But what do you mean "determining your Dexterity bonus to damage?" And, I'm not usually the guy to advocate for extra limitations in abilities, but don't you feel there should be some sort of tie-in with elven weapon proficiencies? Like, instead of "you can now apply Weapon Finesse to a greatsword," try "you gain proficiency with the elven courtblade," or whatever.

Or, really, since giving proficiency with all martial weapons really undermines any reason to use elven-themed weapons, maybe give something extra when using the favored weapons of your elven race. Like free Weapon Focus / Weapon Specialization in with longsword, shortsword, longsword, and longbow (or whatver your particular subrace favors).

Mettle seems an odd choice for a prestige class themed around a race known for its poor constitution. Maybe you could copy Void Incarnate, and give "Mettle of Will" only.

Arcana Unleashed is terribly worded.

Too many of your class features are actually multiple, unrelated abilities.

The effects that mimic feats are really all over the place. They don't seem to have any consistent theme. I can't figure out why you'd pick those feats to go along with this class.

Maat Mons
2018-12-18, 10:33 PM
If I may make some suggestions.



Entry Requirements:

Race: Any elf. (Half elves are considered elves, by virtue of the Elven Blood racial trait.)
Skills: 8 or more ranks in two of the following skills: Balance, Jump, Perform (dance), Perform (sing), or Tumble.
Feats: Weapon Finesse
Spellcasting: Able to cast 1st-level arcane spells.
Special: Must be proficient with all martial weapons.



Elven Weapon Focus (Ex):

You are treated as having the Weapon Focus feat for the longsword, rapier, longbow, and shortbow.

This benefit also applies to the elven courtblade, elven lightblade, and elven thinblade, but only if you have proficiency with those weapons.

Special: If you hail from an elven culture that focuses on different weapons, this benefit applies to those instead.



Elven Weapon Specialization (Ex):

You are treated as having the Weapon specialization feat for all weapons associated with your elven heritage. (The same weapons from the Elven Weapon Focus ability, above.)



Armored Mage (Ex):

You can cast arcane spells in light armor without incurring the normal spell failure chance.



Bladesong (Su):

When you wield a weapon in one hand and nothing in the other, you can combine a spell and weapon attacks into a single action.

As a standard action, you can make one melee attack and cast a spell with a casting time of no more than 1 standard action. As a full-round action, you can make a full attack and cast a spell with a casting time of no more than 1 full-round action.



Spellgrace (Ex):

Whenever you are subject to a magical effect that allow a Reflex or Will save for reduced effect, you suffer no effect on a successful save.



Improved Spellgrace (Ex):

Whenever you are subject to a magical effect that allow a Reflex or Will save for reduced effect, you suffer only the reduced effect even on a failed save.

CopperElfCleric
2018-12-19, 10:07 AM
If I may make some suggestions.



Entry Requirements:

Race: Any elf. (Half elves are considered elves, by virtue of the Elven Blood racial trait.)
Skills: 8 or more ranks in two of the following skills: Balance, Jump, Perform (dance), Perform (sing), or Tumble.
Feats: Weapon Finesse
Spellcasting: Able to cast 1st-level arcane spells.
Special: Must be proficient with all martial weapons.



Elven Weapon Focus (Ex):

You are treated as having the Weapon Focus feat for the longsword, rapier, longbow, and shortbow.

This benefit also applies to the elven courtblade, elven lightblade, and elven thinblade, but only if you have proficiency with those weapons.

Special: If you hail from an elven culture that focuses on different weapons, this benefit applies to those instead.



Elven Weapon Specialization (Ex):

You are treated as having the Weapon specialization feat for all weapons associated with your elven heritage. (The same weapons from the Elven Weapon Focus ability, above.)



Armored Mage (Ex):

You can cast arcane spells in light armor without incurring the normal spell failure chance.



Bladesong (Su):

When you wield a weapon in one hand and nothing in the other, you can combine a spell and weapon attacks into a single action.

As a standard action, you can make one melee attack and cast a spell with a casting time of no more than 1 standard action. As a full-round action, you can make a full attack and cast a spell with a casting time of no more than 1 full-round action.



Spellgrace (Ex):

Whenever you are subject to a magical effect that allow a Reflex or Will save for reduced effect, you suffer no effect on a successful save.



Improved Spellgrace (Ex):

Whenever you are subject to a magical effect that allow a Reflex or Will save for reduced effect, you suffer only the reduced effect even on a failed save.

Hello, and thank you. I just re-vamped the whole PrC using several of your ideas that I thought were fitting. Please let me know what you think.

Maat Mons
2018-12-19, 08:26 PM
Base Saves: Levels 1-5 have good ref and will, bad fort. Levels 6-10 have the reverse, good fort, bad ref and will.



Focused Finesse Specialization: I feel that this should be split up into three different abilities. One ability for dex to damage. A second ability for weapon focus. And a third ability for weapon specialization.

I'd advocate for this division even if the abilities all stay on the same level. But I think weapon focus and weapon specialization should be on different levels. They really feel like they're supposed to be steps. And they aren't really steps if you get them at the exact same time.

I know I told you to put in features that only work with elven weapons. And I stand by that with regard to focus/specialization. But, in the case of dex to damage, I'd consider broadening it out to all weapons to which weapon finesse applies. Or, better yet, having it apply (regardless of weapon) whenever you wield a melee weapon in one hand and nothing (except a spell) in the other.

Also, it turns out I'm dumb and lead you astray. Focus/specialization with rapier also applies to lightblade (if you're proficient). And focus/specialization with rapier or longsword applies to thinblade (again, if you're proficient). So including a line saying the proficiency also applies to thinblade and lightblade is completely redundant and unnecessary.

The line about courtblade still has a mechanical effect. But, now that I think about it more, courtblade is two-handed, which runs completely counter to the class' fighting style. All in all, I'm going to recommend dropping all the text about exotic weapons. (You know, the text that I just told you to put in.)



Bladesong: I'd consider removing the references to two-weapon fighting, and the -2 attack roll penalty.



Balance of Steel and Spell: Eschew materials isn't a metamagic feat. If you have it, you ignore inexpensive material components on all spells. You don't apply it to spells individually.

I don't have a high opinion of combat casting. Why not give the steady concentration feat instead? That let's you take 10 on concentration checks, even in combat. If you've been putting max ranks into concentration, taking 10 will be automatic success. In fact, since steady concentration basically translates to "you don't provoke attacks of opportunity when casting spells," just make a feature that literally says that. (But, you know, maybe only when you wield a weapon in one hand, and nothing in the other.)

There are two main benefits to still spell. One is that you don't need a free hand. This is irrelevant in this case, because the ability that gives still spell itself requires a free hand. The other benefit is that you don't suffer arcane spell failure chance from armor. But since I already talked you into including an ability that negates arcane spell failure in light armor, this benefit is redundant.

I'd remove everything related to still spell, and move armored casting up to 1st level.

And why the focus on abjuration and evocation? I don't see any reason why the class should be specialized here.



Spring Attack: I have a pretty low opinion of the spring attack feat in general. So I'd never include it as a class feature. But especially in this case, since bladesong is a defining feature for this class. And you can't use spring attack and bladesong in the same round. There isn't really even any good way of reworking either of those abilities to make them compatible.

Also, "the spring attack chain of feats" includes bounding assault and rapid blitz. So you're kind of giving a third attack on spring attacks before people necessarily have a third attack on full attacks.

If you're going to give spring attack, I'd just give the feat itself. Don't give dodge or mobility. Just make it work without the prerequisites. And, I guess, you can include wording that lets you take rapid blitz and bounding assault without meeting those parts of the prerequisits.

But really, the best thing you can do is to drop spring attack like a bad habit.



Sylvan Performance: Okay, I still don't get it. Why does a class with "sing" in the name have dance as the perform skill it ties into?



Spellsong: Spell resistance makes you spend a standard action to accept a buff spell or a healing spell from an ally. And if you're incapacitated, you can't spend that action, so attempts to help you will be thwarted.

It's a deeply flawed mechanic. I gave up on it long ago. I don't recommend including it in any homebrew.

Spontaneously converting prepared spells into any abjuration/evocation/whatever spell you know is a very powerful ability for wizards. Too powerful, I'd say.

And it's literally completely useless to sorcerers.

I'd suggest replacing this with an ability that's moderately useful to all casters. Instead of one that's overpowered for some casters, and useless to others.



Armored Mage: As I mentioned before, I'd put this at 1st level.



Harmony of the Blade: I wouldn't give both spell focus and the greater version at the same level. Those should form a progression.

And, again, why evocation? You can already deal damage with your sword. Why would you specialize in a school that's all about damage? It would make more sense to focus on spells that do things you can't also accomplish by stabbing things.

Evocation doesn't seem like a good candidate for spell focus anyway. Lots of evocation spells don't allow saves. And almost all of those that do still deal half damage of a successful save. Spell focus seems like a feat for schools where you need a failed save to do anything. Like necromancy or enchantment.



Quick Substitution: Yet again, why the evocation focus?

If you want to help the class get around energy resistances and immunities, why not convert half the damage in untyped or something?

Also, from an earlier ability, characters with this class can already spontaneously convert prepared spells into any evocation spell they know. Given that my spellbook contains evocation spells of each energy type at each spell level. Why wouldn't I just pick a spell that already deals the right energy type of damage? Why would I pick spell that deals the wrong type of damage, and then use this to fix it?



Astute Balance: Dex to overcome spell resistance is weird.



Whirling Bladesong: Combat Expertise is another one of those feats I find lacking.

Furthermore, a lot of your class features are bonus feats. I'd try to steer more away from those if I were you.



True Bladesong: What's the point of the two-weapon fighting feats? Even without them, you're getting your full number of attacks with the mainhand weapon. And the two-weapon fighting feats don't give you more spells in a round. What are these feats supposed to accomplish.

I don't think it's a good idea to give a second quickened spell per round. And quickened spells are swift actions, not free actions.

You're kind of trying to set this class up as being a better spellcaster than classes that only do spellcasting. But as a hybrid class, it shouldn't really be better at either half than most dedicated classes.



Maximized Spelldance: The limitations you're talking about aren't based on spell level.

This feature means that no one will ever cast a high-level damage spell. If the low-level ones deal the same damage, and use a lower-level spell slot, why would you? Better yet, make up the difference in spell level with metamagic feats. Now low-level spells will deal far more damage than high-level ones.

Granted, the relationship between low- and high-level damage spells was already pretty bad. But this makes things much worse.

Dex to save DC is also weird.

CopperElfCleric
2018-12-19, 10:39 PM
Okay, here we go... I have changed and re-worded and re-worked every single class ability with the help of my friend Diffan, who is much better at game mechanics than I am. I am very pleased with this new version. I just have to work on the BAB and Base Saves tomorrow, and it'll be complete. Let me know what you think please. :)

nonsi
2018-12-20, 01:25 AM
.

FYI: the misalignment of spell progression in all your PrC tables is really eye-poking!
How difficult is it to TAB correctly?!


Table: The Bladesinger

Hit Die: d6

Level BAB F R W Special Spellcasting
================================================== ================================================== ================================================== ==================================
1st +0 +0 +2 +2 Elven Sword Mastery, Bladesong (cantrips and 1st level spells}, Balance of Steel and Spell
2nd +1 +0 +3 +3 Spellgrace, Spring Attack, +1 level in an existing arcane spellcaster class
3rd +2 +1 +3 +3 Sylvan Performance +1 level in an existing arcane spellcaster class
4th +3 +1 +4 +4 Spellsong, +1 level in an existing arcane spellcaster class
5th +3 +1 +4 +4 Armored Mage, Improved Spellgrace, Bladesong (2nd level spells)
6th +6 +5 +2 +2 Harmony of the Blade, +1 level in an existing arcane spellcaster class
7th +7 +5 +2 +2 Quick Substitution +1 level in an existing arcane spellcaster class
8th +8 +6 +2 +2 Astute Balance +1 level in an existing arcane spellcaster class
9th +9 +6 +2 +2 Whirring Bladesong
10th +10 +7 +3 +3 True Bladesong (3td level spells), Maximised Spelldance +1 level in an existing arcane spellcaster class




Also, what's with the inconsistent saves?

Maat Mons
2018-12-20, 02:07 AM
So you're looking to limit the maximum level of spell that can be used with Bladesong. Striving to imitate Havoc Mage?

But Havoc Mage starts at 2nd-level spells. And it gets up to 8th-level spells by level five of the prestige class.

True, Havoc Mage only allows a single melee attack with the spell. But it also allows any weapon style to be used.

Bear in mind, one weapon with the other hand empty is the red-headed stepchild of D&D combat styles. You don't get the extra damage of a 2-handed weapon. Nor the extra damage of two-weapon fighting. Or even the extra defense of sword and shield.

I'd say, no way should you be finishing out the class without the ability to use Bladesong on 9th-level spells.

nonsi
2018-12-20, 02:41 AM
So you're looking to limit the maximum level of spell that can be used with Bladesong. Striving to imitate Havoc Mage?

But Havoc Mage starts at 2nd-level spells. And it gets up to 8th-level spells by level five of the prestige class.

True, Havoc Mage only allows a single melee attack with the spell. But it also allows any weapon style to be used.

Bear in mind, one weapon with the other hand empty is the red-headed stepchild of D&D combat styles. You don't get the extra damage of a 2-handed weapon. Nor the extra damage of two-weapon fighting. Or even the extra defense of sword and shield.

I'd say, no way should you be finishing out the class without the ability to use Bladesong on 9th-level spells.


Don't know about 9th SL, but Bladesong for 2nd+3rd SLs at 5th Bladesinger level and 4th+5th SLs at 9th Bladesinger level could be granted without hesitation. (9th Bladesinger level seems more intuitive with the class' proposed spellcsasting progression). Later on, epic feats could stretch that limit further.
Explanation: Swash 3 / Wis/Sorc 4 could get you into this class as far as requirements go and you culminate at 6th SL access at char-level 17, so one level behind your highest accessible SL is within reason.
It would even be within reason to grant access to SLs 2 and 4 at Bladesinger levels 3 and 7 respectively, even if it breaks the clean split between Bladesong and spellcasting progression.

CopperElfCleric
2018-12-20, 12:00 PM
BAB and BSB is fixed and code is fixed.

CopperElfCleric
2018-12-21, 10:25 AM
I'm much happier with this build. It's balanced and holds true to the old AD&D Bladesinger.

Enjoy!

nonsi
2018-12-21, 10:47 AM
I'm much happier with this build. It's balanced and holds true to the old AD&D Bladesinger.

Enjoy!


2nd level spells at 5th Bladesinger level and 3rd level spells at 10th Bladesinger level for Bladesong is not enough to be attractive.
Too far behind the curve.

Make it 2nd+3rd SLs at 5th Bladesinger level and 4th+5th SLs at 9th Bladesinger level.
This will make it a lot more attractive w/o going too far. (The big guns will remain out of reach of Bladesong).

CopperElfCleric
2018-12-22, 12:38 AM
2nd level spells at 5th Bladesinger level and 3rd level spells at 10th Bladesinger level for Bladesong is not enough to be attractive.
Too far behind the curve.

Make it 2nd+3rd SLs at 5th Bladesinger level and 4th+5th SLs at 9th Bladesinger level.
This will make it a lot more attractive w/o going too far. (The big guns will remain out of reach of Bladesong).

I agree, and so it is done. Thank you.

nonsi
2018-12-22, 06:04 AM
.

You might wanna consider some reshuffling between 9th level and 10th level abilities.
Whirlwind Attack (Whirring Bladesong) at 9th Bladesinger level (minimum char-level 16) is not enough to fill an entire level worth of abilities.
Reasons:
1. Bladesinger trails the BAB race.
2. 1-handed Whirlwind Attack is significantly sub-par to Whirlwind Attack with a Greatsword or Great Axe.

I think that you should swap Whirring Bladesong and True Bladesong.
This will:
1. Streamline the exchange between Bladesong and spellcasting advancement.
2. Even-up levels 9 and 10 in terms of gained benefits. Of all the abilities of those levels, True Bladesong is the only one that can stand on its own as the sum of class features for a given level.

CopperElfCleric
2018-12-25, 10:20 PM
.

You might wanna consider some reshuffling between 9th level and 10th level abilities.
Whirlwind Attack (Whirring Bladesong) at 9th Bladesinger level (minimum char-level 16) is not enough to fill an entire level worth of abilities.
Reasons:
1. Bladesinger trails the BAB race.
2. 1-handed Whirlwind Attack is significantly sub-par to Whirlwind Attack with a Greatsword or Great Axe.

I think that you should swap Whirring Bladesong and True Bladesong.
This will:
1. Streamline the exchange between Bladesong and spellcasting advancement.
2. Even-up levels 9 and 10 in terms of gained benefits. Of all the abilities of those levels, True Bladesong is the only one that can stand on its own as the sum of class features for a given level.

I think I'll put Maximized Spelldance at 9'th level and leave True Bladesong at 10th.

nonsi
2018-12-28, 05:54 AM
I think I'll put Maximized Spelldance at 9'th level and leave True Bladesong at 10th.

I'm guessing that along with Whirring Bladesong, this would more or less even out levels 9 and 10, but given that the class' true bread and butter is True Bladesong, having it relevant only for 3rd level spells at 9th Bladesinger level (16th char-level at the very least) seems unfair and borderline insulting to me.

CopperElfCleric
2018-12-28, 07:47 PM
I changed the spells to 5th level a week ago, lol.

Maat Mons
2018-12-28, 10:41 PM
I changed the spells to 5th level a week ago, lol.

At 10th level, yes. At 9th level, it's still only 3rd level spells.



Why do you feel the need to clump the spell-level increases together anyway? Why not something more like this?



Bladesinger Level
Max Spell Level


1
1


2
1


3
2


4
2


5
3


6
3


7
4


8
4


9
5


10
5





I also want to say that I still don't agree with the idea that the class shouldn't ultimately be able to use Bladecast with 9th-level spells. In fact, I think Bladecast would be better implemented with no level cap whatsoever.

Also, I think losing 3 levels of casting is too much. I would have commented on this earlier, but it was hard to tell which levels gave spellcasting before you fixed the table.

So here's my new proposal.



Level
Special
Spellcasting


1
Bladesong
-


2

+1 arcane


3

+1 arcane


4

+1 arcane


5

+1 arcane


6
Bladesong (full attack)
-


7

+1 arcane


8

+1 arcane


9

+1 arcane


10

+1 arcane



And let players use Bladesong with any level of spell they can cast.

There you have it. Bladesong is divided into two parts, which come at exactly the same levels where spellcasting is lost.



I'd like to address a complaint I expect I'd see otherwise: "But a Duskblade dip would cost 3 levels of casting, and that ability only works on touch spells. Losing just one level of casting to get the same benefit is unbalanced."

You see though, Arcane Channeling has the benefit that it works with two-handed weapons. You don't need a special ability to attack with a light weapon in the same round that you cast a touch spell. You just need a gauntlet.

So Duskblade is just bumping you up from 1d4 + str damage to 2d6 + 1.5x str + 2x power attack penalty.

Bladesong, on the other hand, only works when wielding a weapon in one hand and nothing in the other.



Also, part of the benefit of Arcane Channeling is that it prevents attacks of opportunity at a level where doing that same thing with a concentration check would be difficult. Even if Bladesong gets a "no attacks of opportunity" clause, it's coming online at a level where always succeeding on the check to cast defensively is already feasible.

Maat Mons
2018-12-28, 11:27 PM
I'd also like to reiterate some of my criticisms from before, which I feel are still relevant to the revised class.


Focused Finesse Specialization: I feel that this should be split up into three different abilities. One ability for dex to damage. A second ability for weapon focus. And a third ability for weapon specialization.

I'd advocate for this division even if the abilities all stay on the same level. But I think weapon focus and weapon specialization should be on different levels. They really feel like they're supposed to be steps. And they aren't really steps if you get them at the exact same time.

I know I told you to put in features that only work with elven weapons. And I stand by that with regard to focus/specialization. But, in the case of dex to damage, I'd consider broadening it out to all weapons to which weapon finesse applies. Or, better yet, having it apply (regardless of weapon) whenever you wield a melee weapon in one hand and nothing (except a spell) in the other.

Also, it turns out I'm dumb and lead you astray. Focus/specialization with rapier also applies to lightblade (if you're proficient). And focus/specialization with rapier or longsword applies to thinblade (again, if you're proficient). So including a line saying the proficiency also applies to thinblade and lightblade is completely redundant and unnecessary.

The line about courtblade still has a mechanical effect. But, now that I think about it more, courtblade is two-handed, which runs completely counter to the class' fighting style. All in all, I'm going to recommend dropping all the text about exotic weapons. (You know, the text that I just told you to put in.)



Bladesong: I'd consider removing the references to two-weapon fighting, and the -2 attack roll penalty.



Balance of Steel and Spell: I don't have a high opinion of combat casting. Why not give the steady concentration feat instead? That let's you take 10 on concentration checks, even in combat. If you've been putting max ranks into concentration, taking 10 will be automatic success. In fact, since steady concentration basically translates to "you don't provoke attacks of opportunity when casting spells," just make a feature that literally says that. (But, you know, maybe only when you wield a weapon in one hand, and nothing in the other.)

And why the focus on abjuration and evocation? I don't see any reason why the class should be specialized here.



Spring Attack: I have a pretty low opinion of the spring attack feat in general. So I'd never include it as a class feature. But especially in this case, since bladesong is a defining feature for this class. And you can't use spring attack and bladesong in the same round. There isn't really even any good way of reworking either of those abilities to make them compatible.

But really, the best thing you can do is to drop spring attack like a bad habit.



Sylvan Performance: Okay, I still don't get it. Why does a class with "sing" in the name have dance as the perform skill it ties into?



Spellsong: Spell resistance makes you spend a standard action to accept a buff spell or a healing spell from an ally. And if you're incapacitated, you can't spend that action, so attempts to help you will be thwarted.

It's a deeply flawed mechanic. I gave up on it long ago. I don't recommend including it in any homebrew.



Armored Mage: I'd put this at 1st level.



Harmony of the Blade: I wouldn't give both spell focus and the greater version at the same level. Those should form a progression.

And, again, why evocation? You can already deal damage with your sword. Why would you specialize in a school that's all about damage? It would make more sense to focus on spells that do things you can't also accomplish by stabbing things.

Evocation doesn't seem like a good candidate for spell focus anyway. Lots of evocation spells don't allow saves. And almost all of those that do still deal half damage of a successful save. Spell focus seems like a feat for schools where you need a failed save to do anything. Like necromancy or enchantment.



Quick Substitution: Yet again, why the evocation focus?

If you want to help the class get around energy resistances and immunities, why not convert half the damage in untyped or something?

Also, from an earlier ability, characters with this class can already spontaneously convert prepared spells into any evocation spell they know. Given that my spellbook contains evocation spells of each energy type at each spell level. Why wouldn't I just pick a spell that already deals the right energy type of damage? Why would I pick spell that deals the wrong type of damage, and then use this to fix it?



Astute Balance: Dex to overcome spell resistance is weird.



True Bladesong: What's the point of the two-weapon fighting feats? Even without them, you're getting your full number of attacks with the mainhand weapon. And the two-weapon fighting feats don't give you more spells in a round. What are these feats supposed to accomplish.

I don't think it's a good idea to give a second quickened spell per round. And quickened spells are swift actions, not free actions.

You're kind of trying to set this class up as being a better spellcaster than classes that only do spellcasting. But as a hybrid class, it shouldn't really be better at either half than most dedicated classes.

nonsi
2018-12-28, 11:38 PM
At 10th level, yes. At 9th level, it's still only 3rd level spells.



Why do you feel the need to clump the spell-level increases together anyway? Why not something more like this?


Bladesinger Level Max Spell Level
1 1
2 1
3 2
4 2
5 3
6 3
7 4
8 4
9 5
10 5




That's exactly what I was talking about.








Also, I think losing 3 levels of casting is too much. I would have commented on this earlier, but it was hard to tell which levels gave spellcasting before you fixed the table.

So here's my new proposal.


Level Special Spellcasting
1 Bladesong -
2 +1 arcane
3 +1 arcane
4 +1 arcane
5 +1 arcane
6 Bladesong (full attack) -
7 +1 arcane
8 +1 arcane
9 +1 arcane
10 +1 arcane



Given that to take the class at a level worth considering would mean that one already starts 3 CLs below, losing only 2 CLs during level accumulation as Bladesinger does seem reasonable.
In comparison, Abjurant Champion doesn't have to trade even a single CL (and can probably accumulate another PrC before entering at 10th char-level and completing its journey at char-level 15).







I'd like to address a complaint I expect I'd see otherwise: "But a Duskblade dip would cost 3 levels of casting, and that ability only works on touch spells. Losing just one level of casting to get the same benefit is unbalanced."

You see though, Arcane Channeling has the benefit that it works with two-handed weapons. You don't need a special ability to attack with a light weapon in the same round that you cast a touch spell. You just need a gauntlet.

So Duskblade is just bumping you up from 1d4 + str damage to 2d6 + 1.5x str + 2x power attack penalty.

Bladesong, on the other hand, only works when wielding a weapon in one hand and nothing in the other.



Also, part of the benefit of Arcane Channeling is that it prevents attacks of opportunity at a level where doing that same thing with a concentration check would be difficult. Even if Bladesong gets a "no attacks of opportunity" clause, it's coming online at a level where always succeeding on the check to cast defensively is already feasible.


From what I understand how True Bladesong works, applying streamlined True Bladesong along with progression 8 CLs in 10 Bladesinger levels should even up Bladesinger vs Duskblade.