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Tyger
2007-09-22, 06:18 PM
OK, running a game soon, and the players are in the process of making up their characters. We're going for a quite high power level, so I have given everyone the option of taking up to an LA+2 with no penalty at all. I.e. the LA up to 2 is just completely ignored for all intents and purposes. Needless to say, I've brought out the powergamer in my friends. :smallbiggrin: They are going through every sourcebook they can find and pulling out template and race combinations like never before. And this from a group that really never optimizes.

Two of the characters are looking at minotaur, though one wants to play a druid. Starting level is 8. So even with ignoring the LA, a minotaur is a 6 HD character. So only 2 levels of Druid. Bad idea. Response? We're importing the Dragonlance style minotaur as well, and I am in the process of detailing the minotaur homelands with their two castes, the warrior caste (D&D Minotaurs) and the scholar caste (Dragonlance Minoataur).

But looking over the minotaur from the MM, I just can't see any real reason why you couldn't play a minotaur with no Monstrous Humanoid HD. The stats and other bonuses that it gets aren't out of line with most other LA+2 critters, and are in fact significantly less than some of the more broken ones out there.

So what exactly is the rationale for Monstrous Humanoid HD? Is it a balance issue? I can't see a problem with getting rid of it, but I admit to being blindsided in the past when I have made changes without really thinking them all the way through. So I come to you, gurus of D&D rules. Am I crazy? Or just plain stupid? :smalleek:

martyboy74
2007-09-22, 06:53 PM
Actually, a minotaur is an utterly craptasti race for a druid, because of wildshape. They'd only really gain the -4 INT, -2 CHA, the RHD (which, as you mentions, sucks), and potential multiclass penalties. Feel free to cut the RHD really, but points out how much that minotaur sucks for a druid.

Yuki Akuma
2007-09-22, 07:00 PM
Racial HD are meant to represent that an adult of the species (in this case, a minotaur) is so much tougher than an adult human that they outclass them in almost every way imaginable right out of the box.

And apparently they're naturally even more skilled than humans, even with an Intelligence penalty. Go figure.

You can play a minotaur with no racial HD, if you want. That's what monster classes are for. There's probably a progression for Minotaurs in Savage Species, they're certainly generic enough.

adanedhel9
2007-09-22, 07:00 PM
I think those HD come from the assumption that all minotaurs are naturally big, monstrous brutes. Every minotaur, from the age of maturity onward, is already capable of challenging a 4th-level party - and that natural toughness is modeled with monstrous humanoid HD.

As far as in-party balance goes, there's probably not a huge issue with removing those HD, especially if your other players are shopping around as well. However, note that monstrous humanoid HD are not nearly as strong as a normal class level - theyr'e roughly equivalent to cleric levels without the spellcasting. Just as a rough guess, I'd say that loosing 3 monstrous humanoid HD would be worth another +1 LA.

Orzel
2007-09-22, 07:23 PM
They get a bonus attack on a charge, can't be caught flat footed, and scent. It could be danger to let them get the mid level abilities of some classes at the normal time but too weak to give them nothing that boosts their preferred combat role ad MH HD is basically the tweaked warrior class. Since your player is not taking the minotaur in his preferred combat role, removing the racial HD isn't too bad. His is even more so since the druid's wild shape will remove most of the reasons to be a minotaur. Just don't remove both the HD and the LA.

AtomicKitKat
2007-09-23, 12:17 AM
They get a bonus attack on a charge, can't be caught flat footed, and scent.

I believe you can choose to Powerful-Charge-Gore or weapon attack on a charge, but not both(without Pounce). It's not a bonus attack, just a bonus attack option. Now, in a full attack, it's a different story.

Zincorium
2007-09-23, 12:24 AM
Well the thing I would definitely point out that hit dice, even mostly okay ones like monstrous humanoid, are still a balancing method (albeit less heavy-handed than LA). If you want to remove them, and by all rights you can, you should definitely weaken the minotaur's advantages to compensate.

As far as the wildshape goes, the shapeshift variant in the PHB 2 not only prevents the natural spell cheese, but it's also based on your actual stats instead of setting them to stats of the animal that you're wildshaping into. Thus, it's a lot better for characters that have naturally high physical stats as well as being less broken overall.

It's also accessible from level 1, and removes the need to work in an animal companion.

Prophaniti
2007-09-23, 12:34 AM
I actually have direct experience here... I ran a minotaur once in a campaign where we decided to all play monstrous characters. Starting level was 8 and we were used them as written. It sucked. Because I had no class levels, I had no Armor Proff. I did alright damage, but had no AC to speak of. As my DM said, I was an eggshell with a sledgehammer. I nearly died 3 times in our first encounter and only live because someone was running a Healer class. (love that one) Once I gained my first class level, things were a little better, but I still felt the dead weight of those racial hitdice around my neck every time we leveled.

As was mentioned, the racial HD are supposed to represent the fact that an average adult Minotaur could wad an average adult human into a little ball. That said, there won't be a balance issue if you remove some of the racial HD, for a Minotaur at least. Removing all might create problems, but if everyone else is running monsters and LA creatures, I doubt it.

I'd say, try it out, but let your gamers know things might change if one of them starts getting way too powerful.
(also, on the question of the charge attack, you can only make one attack on a charge [normally] so you have to choose weapon or special gore attack. You do get the gore attack on a full attack action as a secondary attack [-5 BAB]. I highly recommend taking the Powerful Charge and related feats, if youre running a melee class. Your charge becomes a death ray, and you can enjoy the spectacle of a DM coming up with ways to prevent you from charging.)

AtomicKitKat
2007-09-23, 01:05 AM
Once I gained my first class level, things were a little better, but I still felt the dead weight of those racial hitdice around my neck every time we leveled.

I would say the LA were far more crippling, despite being lower in number. At least the RHD gave you a 4.5 HP+Con Mod each, some skills, and BAB(always necessary for meleers.).


(also, on the question of the charge attack, you can only make one attack on a charge [normally] so you have to choose weapon or special gore attack. You do get the gore attack on a full attack action as a secondary attack [-5 BAB]. I highly recommend taking the Powerful Charge and related feats, if youre running a melee class. Your charge becomes a death ray, and you can enjoy the spectacle of a DM coming up with ways to prevent you from charging.)

Leap Attack solves some of it, Drunken Master/Thief Acrobat/Swashbuckler pretty much ensure you would need to be blocked by other characters to stop you from Jumping/Tumbling.

horseboy
2007-09-23, 01:24 AM
I never understood that idea either. Why should I take a 3 level penalty for being a lizard? Why do humans have hp's based on profession, but non-humans don't?

Firefingers
2007-09-23, 04:44 AM
mostly the Racial hit dice prevent massively broken builds

I mean just consider ogre (I have removed all reference to its HD bonuses it only gets 4HD)

+10 Strength, -2 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, -4 Intelligence, -4 Charisma.
Large size. -1 penalty to Armor Class, -1 penalty on attack rolls, -4 penalty on Hide checks, +4 bonus on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters.
Space/Reach: 10 feet/10 feet.
An ogre’s base land speed is 40 feet.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: An ogre is automatically proficient with simple weapons, martial weapons, light and medium armor, and shields.
+5 natural armor bonus.
Automatic Languages: Common, Giant. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Orc, Goblin, Terran.
Favored Class: Barbarian.
Level adjustment +2.

Now in the game mentioned above the LA is ignored as well so we can have a lv8 character with 10ft space and reach 40 ft land speed big bonuses etc

or even if I wanted to be really really broken add a template to the above

Half Celestial Ogre

+14 Strength, +0 Dexterity, +8 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, +4 Wisdom, +0 Charisma.
Large size. -1 penalty to Armor Class, -1 penalty on attack rolls, -4 penalty on Hide checks, +4 bonus on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters.
Space/Reach: 10 feet/10 feet.
An ogre’s base land speed is 40 feet. 80 foot fly speed (good manouver)
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: An ogre is automatically proficient with simple weapons, martial weapons, light and medium armor, and shields.
+6 natural armor bonus.
Immunity to disease.
Resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and electricity 10.
Damage reduction: 5/magic (if HD 11 or less) or 10/magic (if HD 12 or more).
A half-celestial’s natural weapons are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Spell resistance equal to creature’s HD + 10 (maximum 35).
+4 racial bonus on Fortitude saves against poison.

Automatic Languages: Common, Giant. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Orc, Goblin, Terran.
Favored Class: Barbarian.
Level adjustment +6.

Daylight (Su)
Half-celestials can use a daylight effect (as the spell) at will.

Smite Evil (Su)
Once per day a half-celestial can make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to its HD (maximum of +20) against an evil foe.

Special Qualities
A half-celestial has all the special qualities of the base creature, plus the following special qualities.

And all of the above comes at a cost of a mere 4 character levels in a level 8 game (after we remove the 2 LA from ogre and keep just the 4 from half celestial)

Also notice 4 levels of fighter (my favored class personally)

Assumption (10 of all stats so I can ignore their bonuses)

BAB +4 (+7 from ST -1 size) total +10
Damage +7
AC +5 (+6 nat - 1 size)
4d10 + 16 HP (average 10.5 per level so 42hp without counting normal con bonus)
DR 5/magic
SR 14

Fighter 8

BaB +8
Damage +0
AC +0
8D10 + 0 (5.5 per HD so 44 hp)

notice he outclasses a normal fighter by an insane amount add to this you wouldnt tend to use a fighter class for him (I would use battle sorc for 3/4 bab plus casting and d8 HD or even barbarian for cheesy power combo)

Hence racial HD reduce the cheesyness possible

note the fighter above could have used a LA+2 race for maybe another +4 BAB or something like that but still would make a huge difference vs the insane wall of a creature that the ogre with no RHD is

Tor the Fallen
2007-09-23, 11:12 AM
Firefingers- clever troll or simply naive?

AtomicKitKat
2007-09-23, 12:09 PM
Firefingers- clever troll or simply naive?

Well, a troll with fire fingers would have a hard time touching himself...:smalltongue:

Threeshades
2007-09-23, 01:29 PM
Lizardfolk, Gnolls, Bugbears, Minotaurs, Ogres.... All of them are hulking compared to humans. And that's i think what Racial hit dice are for. They have quite some toughness of their own. Without the racial hit dice your minotaur would be lacking the toughness, that would make sense for him. Dont you think a level 4 Fighter human should stand much less damage than a level 4 fighter giant Bull monster?

If that explanation still doesnt make sense try the racial progression tables in Savage species and only take the basic bonuses noted for the monsters and then start taking classlevels immediately. That's what we did for a gnoll character in our party, which made him basically a half orc without orc blood and with listen and spot bonuses.

GoC
2007-09-23, 01:41 PM
*snip*

You compared it to a warrior (an NPC class). So you need to include an extra 2 levels (IIRC).
Comparing to a barbarian would be better.

Talya
2007-09-23, 02:33 PM
Half Celestial Ogre


And for his next ridiculous trick, Firefingers is going to create a Half-Fiendish Solar.

Tor the Fallen
2007-09-23, 02:39 PM
And for his next ridiculous trick, Firefingers is going to create a Half-Fiendish Solar.

Hey, when an angel loves a giant....

ZeroNumerous
2007-09-23, 02:41 PM
Angel loves a demon. :smallbiggrin:

Tor the Fallen
2007-09-23, 02:46 PM
Angel loves a demon. :smallbiggrin:

Half celestial ogres aren't that ridiculous, though.
Well, assuming that the angel loves what's on the inside. And I guess, presumably, ogres have a lot to love on the outside, as well.

Threeshades
2007-09-23, 02:50 PM
Half celestial ogres aren't that ridiculous, though.
Well, assuming that the angel loves what's on the inside. And I guess, presumably, ogres have a lot to love on the outside, as well.

Like Hair.

ZeroNumerous
2007-09-23, 02:53 PM
Theres only one problem though. Ogres as written are Chaotic Evil. Because of that, Half-Celestial Ogres are an impossibility as Half-Celestial requires a non-Evil alignment. My personal favorite is making a human into a Half-Scrag(applies to any Monstrous Humanoid!) to change the type to Giant, and then applying Half-Ogre(any Giant).

Now, how do we explain this? :smallbiggrin:

martyboy74
2007-09-23, 03:01 PM
Helm of Opposite Alignment/Dominate Monster/Perverted DM who likes BDSM/A wizard did it!

horseboy
2007-09-23, 03:04 PM
Now, how do we explain this? :smallbiggrin:
*Ahem* "Large" creature. :smallwink: :smallwink: nudge, nudge. Say no more, say no more!

Tor the Fallen
2007-09-23, 03:45 PM
Theres only one problem though. Ogres as written are Chaotic Evil. Because of that, Half-Celestial Ogres are an impossibility as Half-Celestial requires a non-Evil alignment.

Ogres
Alignment: Usually chaotic evil

So there are, on occasion, lawful good ogres.

And what angels don't get randy on seeing an ogre overcome the great obstacles in his path to become a paladin and save babies?

Thane
2007-09-23, 03:53 PM
Monster hit dice are there for very good reason and it can be a fatal mistake to strip them off and replace with class levels thinking it will come out balanced.

Some of a monster's abilities are tied to their level adjustment, but some are tied to the hit dice as well.

Easiest example is trumpet archon. It's an ECL 20 monster with 12 outsider hitdice and +8 LA. It casts spells as a 14th level cleric.

If you strip off the monster hit-dice and replace with class levels, than at cleric level 1 (ECL 9) it already casts spells as a 15th level cleric. See the problem?

Minotaurs don't just have very nice stats for a fighter. They also get a free gore attack each round, and they're large size with a natural reach. The LA alone won't cover it all. If you let them take class levels instead of monstrous humanoid, they would make an unbalancingly badass fighter.

horseboy
2007-09-23, 05:39 PM
Easiest example is trumpet archon. It's an ECL 20 monster with 12 outsider hitdice and +8 LA. It casts spells as a 14th level cleric.

If you strip off the monster hit-dice and replace with class levels, than at cleric level 1 (ECL 9) it already casts spells as a 15th level cleric. See the problem?

No I don't. What if, instead of a cleric that particular archon decided he wanted to be a paladin?

Hit Dice are nothing more than an assumption of prior experience that a monster has had before the PC's kill it.

Zincorium
2007-09-23, 05:49 PM
No I don't. What if, instead of a cleric that particular archon decided he wanted to be a paladin?

Hit Dice are nothing more than an assumption of prior experience that a monster has had before the PC's kill it.

The cleric levels are built in, they aren't a product of experience so much as they are being created as an emissary of the divine.

It isn't that the archon has 14 cleric levels, it's that it has the spellcasting abilities of a cleric of that level with no cleric levels whatsoever. If you take away the hit dice without taking away that special ability, it is wildly overpowered.

The problem that you don't see is one of obviously overpowered game mechanics, the archon does not work as a balanced PC race if you just whack off the hit dice you have to make other alterations.

Thane
2007-09-23, 08:16 PM
The cleric levels are built in, they aren't a product of experience so much as they are being created as an emissary of the divine.

It isn't that the archon has 14 cleric levels, it's that it has the spellcasting abilities of a cleric of that level with no cleric levels whatsoever. If you take away the hit dice without taking away that special ability, it is wildly overpowered.

Yes, exactly what he said.

All monsters, regardless of whether they have spellcasting ability or not, do have some abilities tied to their hit dice that are not reflected in their level adjustment. It's unique per monster entry, and because per the rules the monster hit dice are required, it's not gone into any detail what's tied to monster hit dice and what's tied to level adjustment.

Hands down, without exception, if you allow a PC to replace monster hit dice with class levels then the monster will be overpowered against it's ECL.

If your players absolutely hate the idea of monster hit dice (this generally comes up when someone wants to play a low-skill monster-type with a high-skill class), then have them play a monster with 1 or fewer monster hit dice. There are a few powerful ones around (like Pixie). Such monsters trade in their first racial hit die for a class hit die instead.

Or, have them consider an outsider (best save progression in all 3 types, and 1d8 HP, best BAB progression, and good skills).

But definately don't let them hack off monster hit-dice and replace with class levels (unless you want the PCs to be overpowered).

Guy_Whozevl
2007-09-23, 08:54 PM
Heck, if you want to be a minotaur, be a half-minotaur. It has crazy bonuses for merely 1 LA. The template is from Dragon though, so it may be hard to find.