PDA

View Full Version : Warlock Patron for Shadow / Twilight Magic -- ??



Max_Killjoy
2018-12-25, 01:56 AM
There's the Shadow Monk, and Shadow Sorcerer, and probably at least one Shadow (class) I'm missing... but no Shadowlock, it seems.

Published patrons, or at least patrons in books I have:

Archfey
Fiend
Great Old One
Celestial
Hexblade


Am I missing any from other books?

Other than the Hexblade's connection to the Shadowfell, what might work for a character using magic with a shadow / twilight aesthetic? That is, which one fits as the best "at least this kinda works" patron for a non-melee shadow-empowered Warlock?


Basic character concept is that for some reason I haven't solidified yet, they were forced to make a pact of mutual survival with a shadow entity trapped in a book, and flee from where they found it. Maybe from a burning library or something. "Just open the book and read, and we both make it out. Or refuse, and we're both destroyed." And there are people out there who want to destroy the book and kill anyone who has read from it, so the character and the book/entity share a common reason to keep the pact. Obviously we're looking at Pact of the Tome at level 3 and saving a Invocation for Book of Ancient Secrets.

Blood of Gaea
2018-12-25, 02:00 AM
It's already pretty baked into the core warlock class with stuff like darkness, devil's sight, shadow of moil, and whatnot.

Max_Killjoy
2018-12-25, 02:02 AM
It's already pretty baked into the core warlock class with stuff like darkness, devil's sight, shadow of moil, and whatnot.

Given that... which existing patron would you think fits the "entity in a book" hook?

Blood of Gaea
2018-12-25, 02:12 AM
Given that... which existing patron would you think fits the "entity in a book" hook?
Great Old One would be a good choice, but it really depends on the entity that is in the book. A cosmic horror like imprint on the book that grants it some semblance of intelligence would certainly give a reason for why people would happily destroy it.

But once it has been read, can it ever truly be destroyed?

Millstone85
2018-12-25, 03:29 AM
Published patrons, or at least patrons in books I have:

Archfey
Fiend
Great Old One
Celestial
Hexblade


Am I missing any from other books?The Undying from SCAG.


Other than the Hexblade's connection to the Shadowfell, what might work for a character using magic with a shadow / twilight aesthetic? That is, which one fits as the best "at least this kinda works" patron for a non-melee shadow-empowered Warlock?You could play a hexblade and, as XGtE says, "forgo such arms, content to weave the dark magic of that plane into [your] spellcasting".

Aett_Thorn
2018-12-25, 07:21 AM
If Unearthed Arcana is allowed, then the Raven Queen might be a good choice for this, thematically. Highly tied to the Shadowfell, and really isn’t imbalanced at all.

Vogie
2018-12-25, 08:40 AM
Hexblade is probably the most connected published book version, unless there's other aspects going on with this book, but that is largely because it's the most... generic... of all of the warlock patrons.

If it's just a living book, I'd also look at the UA-released Seeker patron (link HERE (https://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/UA%20Non-Divine%20Faithful%20SFG.pdf)). The "Brilliant Aurora" from the first ability could be refluffed as being enveloped in shadows, or you can lean into the twilight portion and have it as an Aurora Borealis effect.

Max_Killjoy
2018-12-25, 10:51 PM
Hexblade is probably the most connected published book version, unless there's other aspects going on with this book, but that is largely because it's the most... generic... of all of the warlock patrons.

If it's just a living book, I'd also look at the UA-released Seeker patron (link HERE (https://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/UA%20Non-Divine%20Faithful%20SFG.pdf)). The "Brilliant Aurora" from the first ability could be refluffed as being enveloped in shadows, or you can lean into the twilight portion and have it as an Aurora Borealis effect.

That might work refluffed to shadows instead of astral.

Crgaston
2018-12-25, 11:08 PM
I think one could make a good case for Archfey here. Their skill set and bonus spell list lends itself well to an entity that needs to evade capture. And the Feywild can be a shadowy place, with dark hollows and hidden caverns, and not all Fey are on the same side, so those seeking to destroy the book could have a Fey connection as well.

Max_Killjoy
2018-12-27, 10:51 PM
Looking through PHB and XGTE... there arnn't really that many spells related to books, knowledge, darkness, or twilight, are there?

SVamp
2018-12-27, 11:42 PM
Could always multiclass shadow sorcerer for more of that shadow feel. Together with hexblade tome lock you’d have a pretty shadowy character.

I’d go to at least hound of Ill omen (sorc5), and then decide to either get back to hexblade or continue on with sorcerer. Thanks to quicken eldritch blast you’ll always be just fine for damage, so the split is completely up to you and how you envision the character. First level in sorc for con proficiency wouldn’t be terrible.

Rowan Wolf
2018-12-29, 01:48 AM
I think one could make a good case for Archfey here. Their skill set and bonus spell list lends itself well to an entity that needs to evade capture. And the Feywild can be a shadowy place, with dark hollows and hidden caverns, and not all Fey are on the same side, so those seeking to destroy the book could have a Fey connection as well.

The Queen of Air and Darkness makes for a theme appropriate patron.

Trustypeaches
2018-12-29, 10:17 AM
Other than the Hexblade's connection to the Shadowfell, what might work for a character using magic with a shadow / twilight aesthetic? That is, which one fits as the best "at least this kinda works" patron for a non-melee shadow-empowered Warlock? There's nothing melee-oriented about the Hexblade besides their martial weapons / hex warrior. Even if you removed that feature entirely, it'd still be a competitive subclass with the other patrons.

You can easily make a pure-ranged/spellcasting Hexblade.

Max_Killjoy
2018-12-29, 10:28 AM
The Queen of Air and Darkness makes for a theme appropriate patron.

What's she doing trapped in a book?

Vogie
2018-12-29, 12:32 PM
What's she doing trapped in a book?

That is an excellent question. Sounds like a plot hook.

Chronos
2018-12-29, 04:53 PM
Yeah, I was going to suggest the Queen of Air and Darkness, too, which fits with the shadow flavor. But none of the fey are particularly associated with books.

Corran
2018-12-29, 06:06 PM
Just in case this helps, I had seen the idea in another post of re flavoring the specter (lvl 6 hexblade feature) as the character's animated shadow.

Crgaston
2018-12-30, 10:54 AM
Just in case this helps, I had seen the idea in another post of re flavoring the specter (lvl 6 hexblade feature) as the character's animated shadow.

That's the best way to explain/fluff Accursed Specter that I've heard yet.

Mjolnirbear
2018-12-30, 07:53 PM
You can also, with the DM's permission, redo the patron spells.

My game's hexblades lose Hex Warrior, which is instead gained by bladelocks. That makes a more Curse-themed character.

In another game I had a DM switch out some of the Archfey's spells to add more of a Frost theme. You could alternatively find more enchantments or curses (officially, the only spells that appear to be curses, to the best of my knowledge, are Hex and Bestow Curse. But debuffs, like Blindness or Ray of Enfeeblement, could work wonders)

Chronos
2018-12-31, 09:51 AM
Bane is also curse-ish (in earlier editions, the reverse of Bless was just called "Curse"), but it's still a worthless enough spell that it doesn't much matter whether you have it.

Max_Killjoy
2018-12-31, 01:13 PM
E - somehow my reply to a different thread entirely ended up here, sorry

Max_Killjoy
2018-12-31, 10:18 PM
You can also, with the DM's permission, redo the patron spells.

My game's hexblades lose Hex Warrior, which is instead gained by bladelocks. That makes a more Curse-themed character.

In another game I had a DM switch out some of the Archfey's spells to add more of a Frost theme. You could alternatively find more enchantments or curses (officially, the only spells that appear to be curses, to the best of my knowledge, are Hex and Bestow Curse. But debuffs, like Blindness or Ray of Enfeeblement, could work wonders)

Well that makes for an interesting option.

So if I were to do what with the Archfey Patron, but perhaps make it a knowledge-obsessed shadowfel Fey entity bound into a book (little book pun there), I might go with the following.

1 - Faerie Fire, Identify, Comprehend Languages (two of those, just listing off possibles)
2 - Detect Magic (could also move to level 1, but would need a replacement), Darkvision
3 - Nondetection, Tongues
4 - Evard's Black Tentacles, Shadow of Moil
5 - Legend Lore, Modify Memory

Not sure if all the Archfey special abilities really fit, but some could be refluffed a bit maybe.

Malifice
2018-12-31, 11:59 PM
Is there any reason the Hexblade must be melee?

Like you can take the +Cha to hit and damage with a weapon as a melee back-up. The other 1st level ability (Hexblades Curse) is much tastier.

From there simply pick Shadow themed invocations and spells.

Max_Killjoy
2019-01-01, 01:29 AM
Is there any reason the Hexblade must be melee?

Like you can take the +Cha to hit and damage with a weapon as a melee back-up. The other 1st level ability (Hexblades Curse) is much tastier.

From there simply pick Shadow themed invocations and spells.

The bonus spells from Hexblade don't seem very fitting for the concept, so they'd need to be swapped out if possible.

The subclass abilities also seem even less fitting to the concept than the Archfey list.

Malifice
2019-01-01, 02:59 AM
The bonus spells from Hexblade don't seem very fitting for the concept, so they'd need to be swapped out if possible.

The subclass abilities also seem even less fitting to the concept than the Archfey list.

You only get the bonus spells if you select them.

I'm sure there are enough darkness and shadow themed spells and invocations to make a purely shadow themed character.

Heck my current PC is a Shadowvar (half elf) Shadow sorcerer/ Hexblade.

Crgaston
2019-01-01, 04:21 AM
Bane is also curse-ish (in earlier editions, the reverse of Bless was just called "Curse"), but it's still a worthless enough spell that it doesn't much matter whether you have it.

I must respectfully disagree with your assessment.

Bane on a Warlock who has Synaptic Static is far from worthless.

When you first get the combo, at Warlock 9, you can pick up to 7 enemies and give them -1d4 to Attack Rolls and saves if they fail the Wis save. Then you can hit them with an 8d6 Psychic Fireball that gives them -1d6 on Attacks and Ability Checks if they fail an Int save.

With the -1d4 from Bane applied.

Those minuses stack.

So it's -(1d4+1d6) = (2.5+3.5) = (6), so effectively equivalent to an always-on Shield spell (hopped up on Mountain Dew) for your whole party.

And even though Synaptic Static doesn't require Concentration on your part, it still requires a save every round for a minute to escape that -1d6 penalty. And since you are still concentrating on Bane, they get a -1d4 to that, too. Once you hit Warlock 11, you can hit them with Synaptic Static TWICE if you still have all your slots.

16d6 Psychic is not bad for what basically amounts to rider damage on a persistent mass debuff resisted with (almost) Disadvantage and -1d4 on the roll.

And, yes, this is expensive. But arguably worth it, in the right situation.

It is pretty niche. It'd be best in an encounter where you were badly outnumbered and/or expected combat to go on for a while, but in that situation it is Big Medicine.

Max_Killjoy
2019-01-01, 09:03 AM
You only get the bonus spells if you select them.

I'm sure there are enough darkness and shadow themed spells and invocations to make a purely shadow themed character.

Heck my current PC is a Shadowvar (half elf) Shadow sorcerer/ Hexblade.

I totally misread how the bonus spells work.

Corran
2019-01-01, 01:24 PM
Bane on a Warlock who has Synaptic Static is far from worthless.

When you first get the combo, at Warlock 9, you can pick up to 7 enemies and give them...
This has nice potential perhaps, but the problem is that it takes 2 rounds to set it up. And because this combo pays off much more if you follow up Bane with SS, it will probably be difficult to have enough enemies stay close enough between them and at the same time far enough from your allies to be able to drop an well placed SS at your second turn in combat. It can happen, for example if there is a contingent of enemy archers shooting at the group from some advantageous but tight spot (think of a red wedding type encounter; though Bane has a relatively small range so there's that to worry about too), but usually this kind of combat encounter is not the norm. Usually what will happen is that if at your first turn in combat you have the option to drop an AoE like SS, without affecting (many of) your allies and at the same time affecting enough enemies, you want to take that chance to drop an AoE, because you probably wont have that chance in a following round. Following a SS with Bane seems much easier to execute, though changing the order diminishes the value of this combo. I'd say that Bane + SS is one of those combos that are probably worth considering if you can make it happen during 1 single turn (action surge). I don't think it's good enough to go out of your way to grab two levels of fighter for that, but if you have them anyway, then the combo will be far easier to make good use of. Even with action surge, it doesn't strike me as a good combo, but I have a bit of difficulty justifying why I think that (the short of it, I think it is too costly for the benefit it offers us, and I cannot think of many scenarios where the benefit would be crucial to a winning strategy).

Max_Killjoy
2019-01-02, 11:47 PM
As an aside, is "short rest recharge" as far as spellcasting goes a "warlock thing", or do other spellcasters get that at all?

I really like the warlock's spellcasting mechanics, and I'm considering a version for something else, but if it's one of their toes I don't want to step on it.

Crgaston
2019-01-03, 01:09 AM
This has nice potential perhaps, but the problem is that it takes 2 rounds to set it up. And because this combo pays off much more if you follow up Bane with SS, it will probably be difficult to have enough enemies stay close enough between them and at the same time far enough from your allies to be able to drop an well placed SS at your second turn in combat. It can happen, for example if there is a contingent of enemy archers shooting at the group from some advantageous but tight spot (think of a red wedding type encounter; though Bane has a relatively small range so there's that to worry about too), but usually this kind of combat encounter is not the norm. Usually what will happen is that if at your first turn in combat you have the option to drop an AoE like SS, without affecting (many of) your allies and at the same time affecting enough enemies, you want to take that chance to drop an AoE, because you probably wont have that chance in a following round. Following a SS with Bane seems much easier to execute, though changing the order diminishes the value of this combo. I'd say that Bane + SS is one of those combos that are probably worth considering if you can make it happen during 1 single turn (action surge). I don't think it's good enough to go out of your way to grab two levels of fighter for that, but if you have them anyway, then the combo will be far easier to make good use of. Even with action surge, it doesn't strike me as a good combo, but I have a bit of difficulty justifying why I think that (the short of it, I think it is too costly for the benefit it offers us, and I cannot think of many scenarios where the benefit would be crucial to a winning strategy).

Sorry, OP For the OT Drift. Very valid points, all. As I said, it is situational. Our group tends to get into mass combats from time to time where we are fighting with large groups of allies and adversaries. In those situations having, say, a squad of archers or other defenders at a wall or choke point isn't that uncommon, and they're unlikely to abandon their posts just because someone cast Bane on them. In the more typical dungeon fights it's subject to the disadvantages you describe, of course.

Having Bane available as a knowable spell on a Warlock instead of an invocation that also uses a slot is also a big plus, IMO, as otherwise I think only Bards can pull that trick.


As an aside, is "short rest recharge" as far as spellcasting goes a "warlock thing", or do other spellcasters get that at all?

I really like the warlock's spellcasting mechanics, and I'm considering a version for something else, but if it's one of their toes I don't want to step on it.

Land Druids and Wizards get a form of short rest slot recovery as well, but it's vastly different fro warlock-style casting.