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Zhorn
2019-01-05, 12:31 AM
Not an original idea as it's been around quite a bit as a potential 'fix' for the damage disparity between two-weapon fighting vs using a great weapon, the concept is to have the bonus action attacks granted by two weapon fighting benefit from the extra attack feature.

Most times I see this it is suggested as either a baseline ruling for two-weapon fighting (the ruling on PHB p195, not the class fighting style), or is combined into the Dual Wielder feat or the Fighting Style: Two-Weapon Fighting for Fighters and Rangers, but in each case are worded to do X, Y and Z things instead of just the single change. Not fully against those versions, but I'd like to keep the book versions as written, as I think the change is a bit strong for baseline, and the feat and fighting style are fine as is.

What I'm instead wanting to do for one of my games is to add a feat to the list for players to choose from with some added versatility in where it applies.
Intended Benefits:
- Unarmed Strikes, Melee Weapon attack and Ranged Weapon Attacks that are granted as Bonus Actions benefit from the Extra Attack class feature.
- Compatible with multiple features and feats, not just two-weapon fighting
Intended Costs:
- Requires a Feat
- Requires the Extra Attack feature to come online
- Reliant on Bonus action usage
- Reliant on other features to activate the Bonus Action attack
- Does not confer modifier bonus to damage, requires additional feature from elsewhere
- Does not confer higher damage dice, does not override Dual Wielder's niche

For the most part, it would just be granting 1 extra attack roll per turn in a way that closes the gap between a great weapon vs 2x light weapons with the potential to keep up with Fighter's additional Extra Attacks at higher levels, PLUS would have a stacking potential to be an appealing choice for builds not focused around two-weapon fighting.
Examples:
Monk taking the feat at level 8 has Martial Arts go up to 2 unarmed strike as a bonus action, or 3 using Flurry of Blows.
Crossbow Expert + this feat
Polearm Master + this feat

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Feat: Rapid Striker (alternate name suggestions welcome)
Prerequisite: the Extra Attack class feature (considering removing this line)

When an ability allows you to attack with a weapon or unarmed strike as a Bonus Action, the number of attacks increases by the amount of attacks Extra Attack grants to your Attack Action. (wording of this feels a bit clunky)


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Would very much appreciate some help in writing this Feat so it reads better.
But also if you want to critique it, by all means that'd be neat too

v1.1 Edited wording to express feat as intended (Crediting The Cats for wording)
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Rapid Striker
Prerequisite: the Extra Attack class feature
When an ability allows you to attack with a weapon or unarmed strike as a Bonus Action, the number of attacks (of the same type) increases by the amount based on your Extra Attack feature:

When Extra Attack Allows for two attacks, your number of Bonus Action attacks is increased by one.
When Extra Attack Allows for three attacks, your number of Bonus Action attacks is increased by two.
When Extra Attack Allows for four attacks, your number of Bonus Action attacks is increased by three.
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v2.02.1 Edited wording to express feat as intended (Crediting JNAProductions and The Cats for idea)
Edit: Removed option to take feat multiple times.
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Rapid Striker
Prerequisite: Character level of 5 or higher
When an ability allows you to attack with a weapon or unarmed strike as a Bonus Action, the number of attacks (of the same type) is increased by one.
You can select this feat multiple times, up to a maximum of three.
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JBPuffin
2019-01-05, 11:01 AM
Rapid Striker
Prerequisites: Extra Attack class feature
Effect: The effects of Extra Attack apply to attacks made as a bonus action.

Is it as precisely worded as some other abilities? No, probably not, but I think it gets the idea across.

Zhorn
2019-01-05, 11:20 AM
The worry I have regarding getting the wording of this just right is due to how Extra Attack is worded in the class features, and trying to translate it across into the intent of what I want out of this feat.

Effect: The effects of Extra Attack apply to attacks made as a bonus action.
For most classes, the wording JBPuffin suggests would work as bonus attacks are granted as a single strike and the Extra Attack wording works as intended in bumping it up to 2.
The exception is with Monks. Martial arts grants one strike, so the wording works in bumping it up to two. BUT Flurry of Blows specifies two strikes and Extra Attacks specifies two, meaning as written; spending Ki on Flurry of Blows is identical to not spending Ki and still making the same number of attacks.

The Cats
2019-01-05, 11:46 AM
Prerequisite: Extra Attack
You can attack one additional time You can make one additional attack of the same type whenever you take a bonus action to make one or more attacks.

Zhorn
2019-01-05, 07:34 PM
Prerequisite: Extra Attack
You can attack one additional time You can make one additional attack of the same type whenever you take a bonus action to make one or more attacks.
Thank you, but this wording ceases to function as intended if a character has more than 10 levels in fighter, where at 11th level Extra Attack specified three attacks in an Attack Action, and 18th level where is specifies four.

JNAProductions
2019-01-05, 07:41 PM
So, touch of math.

Greatsword with GWF does 2d6+5 (by level 8, usually) per swing, rerolling 1s and 2s, for 13.33 damage per hit.

Shortswords with TWF do 1d6+5 (by level 8, usually) per swing, no rerolls, for 8.5 damage per hit.

By making the bonus action TWF attack have as many as the regular, you do (ignoring hit chance, which should be equal) 51 DPR with TWF as compared to 40 for GWF at Fighter 11.

Now, Action Surge does make GWF go to 80 while TWF only goes to 76.5, as well as there being the GWM feat... But that's still more than a 25% improvement over the most damaging base Fighter build, for pretty minimal cost.

It also lets you deal with mooks a lot better, as you have more attacks that you can split up, forces more concentration checks, is more reliable...

theVoidWatches
2019-01-05, 07:59 PM
How does the math work out if instead of letting you Extra Attack with your bonus action, it lets you make twice as many attacks as you would normally be able to make? That would give 1 extra attack to most users of it, and let monks get an extra 2 with Flurry of Blows.

The Cats
2019-01-05, 07:59 PM
You can make a one additional attack of the same type whenever you use a bonus action to make one or more attacks. If you have Extra Attack (2) you can make two additional attacks instead. If you have Extra Attack (3) you can make three additional attacks instead.

Zhorn
2019-01-05, 08:08 PM
of the same type
Very important, I'll have to include that in the wording, thank you :smallbiggrin:

Zhorn
2019-01-05, 08:44 PM
So, touch of math.

Greatsword with GWF does 2d6+5 (by level 8, usually) per swing, rerolling 1s and 2s, for 13.33 damage per hit.

Shortswords with TWF do 1d6+5 (by level 8, usually) per swing, no rerolls, for 8.5 damage per hit.

By making the bonus action TWF attack have as many as the regular, you do (ignoring hit chance, which should be equal) 51 DPR with TWF as compared to 40 for GWF at Fighter 11.

Now, Action Surge does make GWF go to 80 while TWF only goes to 76.5, as well as there being the GWM feat... But that's still more than a 25% improvement over the most damaging base Fighter build, for pretty minimal cost.

It also lets you deal with mooks a lot better, as you have more attacks that you can split up, forces more concentration checks, is more reliable...

I understand this concern, and yes this IS a powerful feat, hence why I'm not wanting to add it in as base rule for Two-Weapon Fighting (the non fighting style), or slap it on top of Two Weapon Fighting (the fighting style) or Dual Wielding which each already have bonuses associated with them.
But I'm not seeing it as too powerful considering what classes are able to do at those higher levels both with and without feats (see coffeelock builds with mass spell slots, plus the combination of Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast + Quickened Spell, which at 11th level is a total of 6x 1d10+mod attacks at range without adding feats or Hex). Also, by aiming to word it in the way I am, it's allows enough versatility to make it appealing outside of strictly just two-weapon fighting builds, so that supposed edge it gives two-weapon fighting is also available to your great weapon fighting, polearm master, flurry of blows monk, war magic eldritch knights, frenzy barbarians, etc, etc, etc).

JNAProductions
2019-01-05, 08:52 PM
A Quickened Eldritch Blast combined with Eldritch Blast does 6d10+30, if all hit, for a total of 63. It costs you 2 SP, though, out of a max of 9 at level 11, meaning you get it four times a day. Call it six, if you burn some Warlock slots to get them back.

The 51 damage is available, completely resource free, to any level 11 Fighter with this feat.

And you bring up Coffeelocking in your balance measurements-ask yourself if you WANT to balance to that level.

Zhorn
2019-01-05, 09:37 PM
The reason I brought up the coffee lock was just a point about measuring niche cases and special builds when talking about DRP once you leave the basic attack formulas and start including multiple abilities, as there are always going to be ways to powergame out insanely high damage.

When measuring the balance of this change (and again, i'm not claiming ownership of the idea, I'm just looking at utilizing it in a custom feat), I'm just looking at the 2d6 greatsword vs 2x 1d6 shortswords, and DPR of those in isolation is fairly balanced when the number of off-hand attacks made is equal to the number of main handed attacks.
4x greatsword attacks = 4x [2d6 + mod] = 8d6 + 4x mod
4x shortswords attacks with 1x off-hand attack = 4x [1d6 + mod] + 1d6 = 5d6 + 4x mod, with bonus action used
4x shortswords attacks with 4x off-hand attacks = 4x [1d6 + mod + 1d6] = 8d6 + 4x mod, with bonus action used + requiring a feat
^ that's the extent of balance I concern myself with.

Can this be used by a min-maxing powergaming munchkin? Yes, but then what can't be.

I'm all ears if you have any constructive suggestions about what you would change, as I genuinely enjoy reading other people's ideas. But I just want to let you know the DPR potential doesn't concern me to the same extent as it does for you; mainly since I'll be the DM and have the ability to chose what encounters the players have, or how strong the opponents they will be up against are.

Side note: doubling back to the finite resources vs resource free, we both know there's more to it once rests start coming into the picture and how many encounters per day are included
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23610792&postcount=22

JNAProductions
2019-01-05, 09:45 PM
Except you're forgetting the TWF style, which makes it not X*(2d6+Mod) as compared to X*(1d6+Mod+1d6), but X*(1d6+Mod+1d6+Mod). Or, in other words, GWF is 2d6+Mod (reroll 1s and 2s), TWF is (with this) 2d6+2Mod.

And that's not exactly high-level optimization. That's literally as simple as picking the fighting style that matches your fighting style.

Edit: If you're going to buff all players highly, then it's probably fine, but you are SIGNIFICANTLY increasing the power of a bog-standard Fighter (by more than 25%, on most rounds) and Fighters are well-balanced as-is.

If you are okay with that, make sure you include a disclaimer in the OP that it's not meant for games of the normal variety, with the intended balance points.

Zhorn
2019-01-05, 10:10 PM
Except you're forgetting the TWF style, which makes it not X*(2d6+Mod) as compared to X*(1d6+Mod+1d6), but X*(1d6+Mod+1d6+Mod). Or, in other words, GWF is 2d6+Mod (reroll 1s and 2s), TWF is (with this) 2d6+2Mod.

Not forgetting, fully aware. Just not including that in my view of 'balance' as not everyone is going to have a fighting style, but regular two weapon fighting is available to everyone. Yes, a fighter or ranger that fights with two weapons is mostly probably going to take Two-Weapon Fighting as their fighting style, just the same as any character with access to Great Weapon Fighting as a fighting style would take that if they are going to use a great weapon. If they don't have access to a fighting style, then they either make do without and build according to what they have.

Also, in the last comparison of the quote you are comparing GWF without a feat to TWF with a feat, which while they are hard to compare balance wise, it would be more fair a comparison if you were to instead compare this feat vs either Polearm Master (an extra d4 + mod on bonus attack) or Great Weapon Master (-5 to hit for +10 damage per strike, plus an additional attack roll as a bonus attack on a kill or or crit). \_(ツ)_/

But yes you are still correct that this would have the highest optimizing potential for fighters compared to any other class, especially considering fighters normally don't have many exciting things to do with bonus actions.

JNAProductions
2019-01-05, 10:24 PM
Alright.

Level 11 Fighter, Polearm Master, 20 Strength.
Does 3d10+1d4+20 if all hit, for an average of 41.9 (with GWF).

Level 11 Fighter, GWM toggled off, 20 Strength.
Does 6d6+15 if all hit, for an average of 40 DPR (with GWF), increasing to 53.33 if you get a crit/kill.

Level 11 Fighter, GWM toggled on, 20 Strength.
Does 6d6+45 if all hit, for an average of 70 DPR (with GWF), increasing to 93.33 if you get a crit/kill.

Level 11 Fighter, this feat, 20 Strength or Dexterity.
Does 6d6+30 if all hit, for an average of 51 (with TWF).

So, obviously the GWM on does the most. But it also has, far and away, the worst hit chance. If you have the SAME hit chance, GWM barely outdamages TWF if they get a crit or a kill.

With a +9 to-hit, this is how the DPR breaks down for TWF versus GWM on:



AC
TWF (+9 to-hit, Base 51 DPR)
GWM (+4 to-hit, Base 70 DPR)


6-
48.45
66.5


7
48.45
63


8
48.45
59.5


9
48.45
56


10
48.45
52.5


11
48.45
49


12
45.9
45.5


13
43.35
42


14
40.8
38.5


15
38.25
35


16
35.7
31.5


17
33.15
28


18
30.6
24.5


19
28.05
21


20
25.5
17.5


21
22.95
14


22
20.4
10.5


23
17.85
7


24
15.3
3.5


25
12.75
3.5


26
10.2
3.5


27
7.65
3.5


28
5.1
3.5


29+
2.55
3.5



I bolded the crossover points, where GWM starts doing LESS than TWF, and then when it does more.

So, unless you're routinely facing foes with less than 12 AC or greater than 29 at level 11... TWF is significantly better. And while GWM will shine a little in mook-heavy fights (due to reliably getting the extra attack), TWF does even better, since it can parcel up damage better and overkill less.

Zhorn
2019-01-05, 10:53 PM
Alright.
Wow, can I just say you are awesome?
I'll say it anyway, you are awesome.

I didn't actually expect you to supply a breakdown like that, especially considering, as I said, feats are hard to compare.
To be honest, I was expecting a damage disparity between feats since different mechanics rarely yield the same results, but in seeing the range between AC 10-17 (where most creatures outside of boss encounters will be) and the damage expected being as close is it is, I'm more certain that this is going to be a non issue in the games I run.

Again, as I've admitted for a while in this thread, yes this IS a strong feat, but I still don't considering too overpowered considering the factors needed for it to come online to the huge potential it can reach (level, additional features, ideal targets), and by the time the characters reach that stage there's a good chance some characters will have a couple of feats stacked to optimize their builds.

Powerful yes, but TWF would now be a strong competitor than being previously at a clear disadvantage compared to great weapons.

Once more JNAProductions, you are awesome, and I do look forwards to seeing you pop up in these threads.

Zhorn
2019-01-06, 12:47 AM
While I'm still of the mind that the damage potential of this feat isn't a huge concern, I will concede that JNAProductions raises enough of a concern regarding the 25% benchmark as a point to pull the Feat back a bit in power.
new version:
Extra Attack replaced with a 5th level requirement so classes without Extra Attack can use, but not before it is intended.
Grants only one extra attack per time the feat is taken.
Can be taken up to 3 times, so can still reflect the intended max potential, but now costs a whole feat per extra attack.