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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next [PEACH] Revised Innate Sorcerer (at wills)



superninja109
2019-01-05, 10:00 PM
Hello. I have redesigned the sorcerer class. This class has always bothered me. In the MM, innate spellcasting is much simpler than sorcerer spellcasting and works differently. But why doesn't the sorcerer class reflect that? Also, most spellcasting classes can be really complicated and deterring for the people I play with. Without further ado, here is my revised sorcerer. Please tell me about any balance issues. I am mainly concerned with unbalanced metamagics and if I have the right amount of spells per day. My reasoning for when you get at will spell levels is to try to make it so that damage dealing spells keep pace with scaling cantrips. Regardless, I am very concerned about balance in this. Cutting out detailed resource management is hard. I appreciate any and all feedback.



Level
Features
Cantrips Known
Spells Known
1/day Spell Level
2/day Spell Level
At Will Spell Level


1
Sorcerous Origin, Innate Spellcasting
4
1
1
1
-


2
-
4
2
1
1
-


3
Metamagic (1)
4
3
2
1
-


4
Ability Score Improvement
5
4
2
1
-


5
-
5
5
3
2
1


6
Sorcerous Origin Metamagic (1)
5
6
3
2
1


7
Metamagic (2)
5
7
4
3
1


8
Ability Score Improvement
5
8
4
3
1


9
-
5
9
5
4
1


10
Metamagic (3)
6
10
5
4
1


11
-
6
11
6
4
2


12
Ability Score Improvement
6
11
6
4
2


13
-
6
12
7
4
2


14
Sorcerous Origin Metamagic (2)
6
12
7
4
2


15
-
6
13
8
4
2


16
Ability Score Improvement
6
13
8
4
2


17
Metamagic (4)
6
14
9
5
3


18
Sorcerous Origin Metamagic (3)
6
14
9
5
3


19
Ability Score Improvement
6
14
9
5
3


20
-
6
14
9
5
4



Class Features
Hit Dice: 1d6 per sorcerer level
Hit Points at 1st Level: 6 + your Constitution modifier
Hit Points at Higher Levels: Hit points at higher levels: 1d6 (or 4) + your Constitution modifier

Proficiencies:
Armor: None
Weapons: Simple Weapons
Saving Throws: Constitution, Charisma
Skills: Choose two from Arcana, Deception, Intimidation, Persuasion, Religion

Innate Spellcasting
Starting at 1st level, you learn to harness the magical forces inside you to innately cast spells.
Cantrips – You learn 4 cantrips of your choice from the sorcerer spell list at 1st level. You learn more as you level up, as shown on the sorcerer table.
Spells Known – You know one 1st level spell from the sorcerer spell list. As you gain levels, you learn more spells, as shown on the sorcerer table. You cannot learn a spell with a casting time of 1 reaction. Whenever you learn a new spell, it must be of the highest level that you can cast. You can learn a spell of a lower level, but it is always treated as if cast at the level spell you should have learned. For example, when you reach 6th level, you learn a new 3rd level spell, or you learn a 2nd or 1st level spell that is treated as if it was cast with a 3rd level spell slot.
When you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of your known spells with a different spell of the same level.
Spells Per Day - For each spell that you know, you can cast it a certain number of times per day. The spell level in the 1/day column indicates that you can cast each spell of that level and lower at least once a day. The spell level in the 2/day column indicates that you can cast each spell of that level or lower at least 2 times per day. The level in the at will column indicates that each spell that you know of that level or lower can be cast by you an unlimited amount of times per day.
For example, at 5th level, you know 2 1st level spells, 2 2nd level spells, and 1 3rd level spell. You can cast each 1st level spell an unlimited amount of times per day, you can cast each 2nd level spell two times per day, and you can cast the 3rd level spell once per day.
Spellcasting Ability – Constitution is your spellcasting ability because the amount and potency of the magic you produce is only tempered by how much you can endure the raw forces swirling within you.
Spellcasting Focus – Because your spellcasting ability comes from within, you can you hands, eyes, or other body part as a spellcasting focus.

Sorcerous Origin
Choose a sorcerous origin. This describes where you obtained your innate magical power. Your choice will grant you a feature at first level and then grant you an additional metamagic to add to one of your spells at 6th, 14th, and 18th level. Metamagics granted by your sorcerous origin can be applied to spells that already have a non-origin metamagic applied to it. Two origin-granted metamagics cannot be applied to the same spell.

Metamagic
At 3rd level, choose one 1st level spell and one metamagic option. Whenever you cast that spell, you apply the metamagic’s effect to the spell. You can only apply one metamagic per spell, unless stated otherwise. At 7th, 10th, and 17th level, you can apply another metamagic to a 3rd, 4th and 5th level spell (or lower), respectively. You cannot apply metamagic to cantrips.
• Careful Spell – Whenever you cast this spell, you can choose a number of creatures less than or equal to you Constitution modifier (minimum of 1). These creatures automatically succeed on their saving throws against the spell.

• Distant Spell – Whenever you cast this spell, if it has a range of at least 5 feet, the range is doubled. If the spell has a range of touch, the range is 30 feet.

• Empowered Spell – Whenever you roll damage for this spell, you may reroll a number of damage dice equal to you Constitution modifier (minimum of 1). You must keep the new rolls. You can apply this metamagic to a spell that already has a metamagic applied to it. Also, if this metamagic is applied to a spell, you can apply another one.

• Extended Spell – When you cast this spell, the duration is doubled, to a maximum of 24 hours.

• Subtle spell – When you cast this spell, you can ignore the verbal and somatic components of this spell.

• Quickened Spell – (Prerequisite: 7th level sorcerer) If this spell has a casting time of 1 action, whenever you cast it, it has a casting time of one bonus action.

• Heightened Spell – (Prerequisite: 7th level sorcerer) When you cast this spell, choose one creature. This creature subtracts you Constitution modifier (minimum of 1) from its saving throw against this spell.

• Uber-Heightened Spell – (Prerequisite: 17th level sorcerer) When you cast this spell, choose one creature. This creature has disadvantage on its saving throw against this spell.

• Twinned Spell – (Prerequisite: 7th level sorcerer if applied to a 2nd level spell, 10th level sorcerer if applied to a 3rd level spell, 17th level sorcerer if applied to a 4th or 5th level spell) If applied to a spell that can only target one creature (that does not have a range of self), the spell now affects two targets within range

• Flexible Spell – When you cast a spell that deals fire, thunder, lightning, acid, or cold damage, you can choose to make the spell deal fire, thunder, lightning, acid, or cold damage.

• Bolstering Spell – When you cast this spell, you regain hit points equal to your Constitution modifier (minimum of 1).

• Broadened Spell – (Prerequisite: 7th level sorcerer) When you cast this spell, if the spell affects creatures in a cone, line, sphere, cylinder, or cube of a certain size, the distance that defines the size of the area is doubled.

• Melded Spell – When you cast this spell, you may as part of the same action, cast a cantrip that does not deal damage.

• Lingering Spell – (Prerequisite: 10th level sorcerer)If this spell has a non-instantaneous duration, the spell’s duration is doubled, but saving throws against the spell have advantage, damage dealt is halved, and attack rolls have disadvantage.
• Raw Spell – This spell deals force damage instead of the damage type that it dealt before.

• Spatially Aberrant Spell – If this spell emanates from yourself, you can cause the spell to emanate from a point within 20 feet of you.

Sorcerous Origins

Draconic Bloodline
You draw your power from the ancient power of the dragons. You must use your force of personality to truly emulate dragons and draw on their power.

Draconic Hide
Starting at 1st level when you choose this subclass, you learn to emulate your draconic ancestor by harnessing your force of personality to develop a scale-like draconic hide. When not wearing armor, your AC = 10 + your Charisma modifier + your Dexterity modifier.

Draconic Metamagic
Choose what color dragon you are descended from. This corresponds to a certain damage type according to the chart in the PHB. You gain the following metamagic to apply to spells you know at the following levels.

6th level – Draconic Resistance: When you cast this spell, you gain resistance to the damage type determined by what color of dragon you chose until the beginning of your next turn.

14th level – Draconic Energy: When you cast this spell, every creature within 10 feet that is affected by this spell takes damage (of the type of determined by the color of your ancestry) equal to double your Charisma modifier (minimum of 1) to each target within 10 feet of you.

18th level – Dragon Flight: When you cast this spell, you gain a fly speed equal to your current speed until the end of your turn.

Elemental Bloodline
You draw your power from elemental ancestors from the inner planes.

Elemental Affinity
Choose fire (fire), acid (water), bludgeoning (earth), cold (ice), or lightning (air) damage. This is your elemental damage type. Starting at first level when you choose this origin at 1st level, your spells that deal your elemental damage deal extra damage equal to 2 + the spell’s level.

Elemental Metamagic
You gain the following metamagic to apply to spells you know at the following levels.

6th level – Elemental Fury: If a creature takes damage of your elemental damage type from this spell, it is subject to an effect determined by you elemental damage type. Any saving throws are against your spell save DC
• Fire – The creature takes extra damage equal to your Constitution modifier
• Acid – The creature must succeed on a Strength saving throw or fall prone.
• Bludgeoning – The creature must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be restrained until the start of its turn.
• Lightning – The creature cannot take reactions until the start of its turn.
• Cold – The creature’s speed is reduced to 0 until the beginning of your next turn.

14th level – Elemental Shield: When you cast this spell, you gain temporary hit points equal to double your Constitution modifier (minimum of 1) for 1 minute.

18th level – Energized Spell: When this spell deals damage of your elemental type, it deals maximum damage. (This must be applied to a spell of 4th level or higher).

Favored Soul
You draw your power from divine favor. The power is gifted to your soul for you to draw upon, if you understand your patron wishes.

Divine Favor
You can learn spells from the cleric or paladin spell list. However, any spell that restores hit points can never be cast more than 4 times per day.

Divine Soul Metamagics
You gain the following metamagic to apply to spells you know at the following levels.

6th level – Blessing Spell: When you cast this spell, choose a creature within 30 feet of you. Until the beginning of your next turn, it can add your Wisdom modifier to any attack roll, ability check, or saving throw.

14th level – Inspiring Spell: When you cast this spell, choose a creature within 30 feet of you. This creature gains temporary hit points equal to double your Wisdom modifier (minimum of 1) for 1 minute.

18th level – Radiant Spell: When you cast this spell, all friendly creatures within 10 feet of you have advantage eon all saving throws until the beginning of your next turn.

JNAProductions
2019-01-05, 10:04 PM
So, they eventually get two 9th slots per day, but more importantly, they get Shield at-will at level 5.

There are balance issues with this.

superninja109
2019-01-05, 10:13 PM
Oh, wait I messed up the 9th level slots thing. That was unintentional. I'll fix it.

Should I add some sort of qualifier for which spells you can cast at will or just further delay the at will spells. I'm not really sure how to deal with the shield thing. Duration qualifier? Limited spell list?

Actually, how about this: no reaction spells. These are meant to do one-off things that burn through spell slots. If you had them at will, it would dramatically increase the power level because it is no longer a one-off. That's a problem so I guess I'll bar reaction spells. I'm sure there are still things that evade this any suggestions on how to get those to stay in line?

JNAProductions
2019-01-05, 10:30 PM
Oh, wait I messed up the 9th level slots thing. That was unintentional. I'll fix it.

Should I add some sort of qualifier for which spells you can cast at will or just further delay the at will spells. I'm not really sure how to deal with the shield thing. Duration qualifier? Limited spell list?

Actually, how about this: no reaction spells. These are meant to do one-off things that burn through spell slots. If you had them at will, it would dramatically increase the power level because it is no longer a one-off. That's a problem so I guess I'll bar reaction spells. I'm sure there are still things that evade this any suggestions on how to get those to stay in line?

Honestly? I think the Sorcerer is fine as-is, and while an adjustment on the class is fine, I think the way you're going about it is not a good way.

You're basically rewriting the casting system for one class, where everyone else uses it the same way (excepting the Warlock, but even they are far more in tune than this class is).

Basically, I'm stumped when it comes to keeping this general idea and making it better and more balanced. If you can think of anything, I'll be happy to try and help you refine it or gut-check it for balance, but I'm not sure this is gonna work.

Best of luck to you, though!

superninja109
2019-01-05, 10:54 PM
I was trying to mirror the innate spellcasting trait in the MM where it had things like: "at will: spell, spell, spell; 3/dy: spell, spell; 1/day: spell" The problem is that this is less easily advanced (it doesn't say what "level" the spellcaster is). I guess I'll have to compare monsters if I can find comparable innate and spellcasting ones.
Also, I was inspired by someone's old brew of a simple spellcaster. It was flawed but looked interesting.

What if I did it where you had two lists of, to relate it to a familiar term, invocations.

One list gives you 1/day, 2/day, 3/day, and at will spells. Maybe these are even grouped by general power level. You have a certain number of these and can swap them out as you level up. This way, you can progress from 1 to 2 to 3 to infinite castings per day or just stick with the 1 or 2 per day. This way, things could be made more equivalent by comparing warlock eldritch invocations (ie 1 5th level spell cast with spell slot = 1 3rd level spell at will). Maybe each "invocation" is assigned a power level by using the equivalent "cast using a spell slot" spell level. (ie one that grants a 3rd level spell ("equivalent" to a 5ht level spell using a spell slot) at will is a "5th level" invocation.
The other list would be the metamagic stuff which you apply to each invocation.

Actually my first idea for an at-will sorcerer was having only cantrips and then a TON of metamagic options to basically craft your own spells by altering and scaling-up cantrips. However, I felt like that would be even more complicated and difficult to balance.

I don't know. I'll work on a rewrite with the "invocation" model. Maybe to make it sound like 3e, I'll call them spell-like abilites. :smalltongue:

Sir Brett Nortj
2019-01-05, 10:58 PM
It is cool, IF, you move all the spells down three ranks.

So, at level one, they will have two cantrips and no level one spells, makes it like a crawl to the top, yes?

If you were to ask me, and, i were to answer...

Maybe you should make all spells at will! Starting with two cantrips at level one?

Then,

Psychic warrior spell progression, how about that?

superninja109
2019-01-05, 11:07 PM
It is cool, IF, you move all the spells down three ranks.

So, at level one, they will have two cantrips and no level one spells, makes it like a crawl to the top, yes?
I don't think that the power difference should be that vast. Nobody would play this class because the early levels would be terrible. "I'm the spellcaster who has 2 cantrips and nothing more." While agree that I should tone done some of the higher level spell progression, you have to have something in the early levels that makes the class worthwhile.


If you were to ask me, and, i were to answer...

Maybe you should make all spells at will! Starting with two cantrips at level one?

Then,

Psychic warrior spell progression, how about that?

I was trying to make all spells at-will, but by my math, you would have to wait till at least 5th level before you could get 1st-level spells, and even then there would be issues (ie shield). And it would be no fun in the early levels where you get a fraction of other classes' 1st level power.

By the way, what is psychic warrior progression? Are you talking about psi points and the mystic UA?

Sir Brett Nortj
2019-01-05, 11:16 PM
I don't think that the power difference should be that vast. Nobody would play this class because the early levels would be terrible. "I'm the spellcaster who has 2 cantrips and nothing more." While agree that I should tone done some of the higher level spell progression, you have to have something in the early levels that makes the class worthwhile.



I was trying to make all spells at-will, but by my math, you would have to wait till at least 5th level before you could get 1st-level spells, and even then there would be issues (ie shield). And it would be no fun in the early levels where you get a fraction of other classes' 1st level power.

By the way, what is psychic warrior progression? Are you talking about psi points and the mystic UA?

The psychic warrior features in third edition, and, gets cleric attacks and gear, cleric hit points and uses rogue attack bonus for psionic powers and levels, instead of normal spell casting features.

theVoidWatches
2019-01-05, 11:25 PM
I would suggest looking to 3.5's warlock. Instead of spells (beyond cantrips) they can have spell-like abilities, broken into tiers - some of them are "cast X spell at will", while others can be "cast X spell once per day/rest". That will let you be selective about which spells are problematic when at will at which ones aren't.

On the other hand, it might be hard to keep the sorcerer flavor at that point.

superninja109
2019-01-06, 09:58 AM
I would suggest looking to 3.5's warlock. Instead of spells (beyond cantrips) they can have spell-like abilities, broken into tiers - some of them are "cast X spell at will", while others can be "cast X spell once per day/rest". That will let you be selective about which spells are problematic when at will at which ones aren't.

On the other hand, it might be hard to keep the sorcerer flavor at that point.

Ok. I think I am going to try to do that. I don't think flavor will be too much of a problem because on the outside, it will just look like casting a few spells a ton of times. I guess I'll just flavor it as instead of spells per-se you are just learning unique ways to harness your innate magical ability.

One thing: is the amount of spells per day that I have in this version (problem spells aside) look ok. If so, I'll try to use this as something of a reference point.

clash
2019-01-06, 02:27 PM
I really like where this is headed. It reminds me of the 3.5 shadow caster but without some of its issues. One suggestion is to break the spell casting into tiers based on the tiers of play. So at level 5 3rd level and lower spells become 2/ day and at level 11 3rd level and lower become at will and 5th level and lower become 2/day. Something like that would simplify things a bit more

superninja109
2019-01-06, 03:18 PM
I really like where this is headed. It reminds me of the 3.5 shadow caster but without some of its issues. One suggestion is to break the spell casting into tiers based on the tiers of play. So at level 5 3rd level and lower spells become 2/ day and at level 11 3rd level and lower become at will and 5th level and lower become 2/day. Something like that would simplify things a bit more

In the new version that I am working on, the things that you pick will say something like this: "you learn a spell of X level from the Z sorcerer spell list. You can cast this once per day. At Y level, you can cast it 2/day. At W level, you can cast it at will" or something like that.
Most of the spells should "upgrade at the same level.

Thanks for the comments!