5e brainstorming session: where are the cha-based half-casters?

[sengmeng]

So, the title may be enough, but I'll expand a bit... The official half casters as classes, paladin and ranger, are wis-based, and the archetype half casters are int-based (arcane trickster and eldritch knight). What gives? Where is the cha-based half caster base class or archetype? Who is he? What should he do? I've been toying with the idea of a barbarian caster archetype with cha as the stat... but that sentence is about as far as I've gotten. I really keep getting caught on the theme/lore because who is this guy? All input welcome.

[sandmote]

So, the title may be enough, but I'll expand a bit... The official half casters as classes, paladin and ranger, are wis-based, and the archetype half casters are int-based (arcane trickster and eldritch knight). What gives? Where is the cha-based half caster base class or archetype? Who is he? What should he do? I've been toying with the idea of a barbarian caster archetype with cha as the stat... but that sentence is about as far as I've gotten. I really keep getting caught on the theme/lore because who is this guy? All input welcome.

In 5e Paladins are Charisma based casters. At least according to every source I've seen.


Spellcasting Ability
Charisma is your spellcasting ability for your paladin spells, since their power derives from the strength of your convictions. You use your Charisma whenever a spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, you use your Charisma modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a paladin spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one.

Spell save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier

Spell attack modifier = your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier

Also, Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters are 1/3 casters. However, a 1/3 caster barbarian could still be fairly cool.

[sengmeng]

Wow I never read through paladin completely. I've started an idea of a Warlock like Barbarian archetype called "Spirit Vessel"

[sandmote]

Wow I never read through paladin completely. I've started an idea of a Warlock like Barbarian archetype called "Spirit Vessel"

Well, post that subclass. At the very least, I'll be interested in how your idea differs from my own warlock-like subclass and 1/3 caster barbarian subclass.

Although you should probably name it "path of the spirit vessel" or something similar. That way it's consistent with published barbarian subclasses.

[sengmeng]

Will do. Still working out kinks.

[sengmeng]

Path of the Spirit Vessel

Many barbarians feel out of control during battle; the Path of the Spirit Vessel is usually undertaken by a barbarian who appeals to external forces to keep him in check during his rages, often by appealing to the tribe's shaman for a blessing.

Spirit Rage

When you take the Path of the Spirit Vessel at 3rd level, you learn two cantrips and two first level spells from the Warlock spell list. Your casting stat for these spells is Charisma. You cast these spells by using up your uses of rage. As you level up, you gain more spells and cantrips known, and learn Warlock invocations according to the following table. Your spell's slot level also increases according to the column labeled "slot level" on the table. Your spells never cost more than a single use of rage. When you reach 20th level, you gain an unlimited number of rages per day, but you still only have 6 for the purposes of casting spells. When your slot level increases, the max spell level you can learn also increases to match. You do not need to prepare spells ahead of time; you know your spells and can cast them as long as you have uses of rage available.



Level
Cantrips
Spells Known
Slot level
Invocations


3rd
2
2
1st
-


4th
2
2
1st
-


5th
2
2
1st
1


6th
2
2
1st
1


7th
2
3
2nd
1


8th
3
3
2nd
1


9th
3
4
2nd
1


10th
3
4
2nd
2


11th
3
4
3rd
2


12th
3
5
3rd
2


13th
3
5
3rd
2


14th
3
5
3rd
2


15th
3
6
3rd
3


16th
3
6
4th
3


17th
3
6
4th
3


18th
3
7
4th
3


19th
3
7
4th
3


20th
3
8
4th
4



Rage Caster

At third level when you choose this path, you may cast spells during a rage, as long as they are granted by this archetype. During your rage, if you attack and damage an opponent or take damage, you may cast a spell or cantrip as a bonus action.


Spirit Weapon

At 6th level, if you cast a spell by spending a use of rage, you gain +2 damage on all melee weapon attacks until the end of your next turn, and any melee weapon you wield overcomes damage resistance as if it were magical. The damage bonus stacks with your rage damage bonus, if applicable.


Spirit Power

If you cast a spell on your turn and go into a rage as a bonus action, you may spend two additional uses of rage to gain the ability to cast that spell as a bonus action every turn until your rage ends, but only against an enemy you hit with a melee weapon attack. These castings do not count against your daily uses of rage.

[sandmote]

Okay, so, this isn't a bad idea. I've certainly been struggling to come up with a way to reasonably limit spellcasting for a barbarian, rogue, or fighter (and to some extent monk).

However, I don't think you have enough of a theme to build off of.

Many barbarians feel out of control during battle; the Path of the Spirit Vessel is usually undertaken by a barbarian who appeals to external forces to keep him in check during his rages, often by appealing to the tribe's shaman for a blessing.
I highly suggest fleshing out the external force granting these powers. It's a barbarian subclass, so you can always add spellcasting during a rage, but you're really missing any thematic component you can tie to abilities to beside buffing the spells. Buffing the spells isn't bad, it's just a bit awkward when you don't have anything else.

Beside that, I'm also suggesting the following table instead of your initial one. It follows the standardized rate of learning cantrips and increasing spell levels for a 1/3 caster, and grants an additional Eldritch Invocation every other time a warlock would gain one (resulting in half as many as a warlock most of the time).



Level
Cantrips
Spells Known
Slot level
Invocations


3rd
2
2
1st
1


4th
2
2
1st
1


5th
2
2
1st
1


6th
2
2
1st
1


7th
2
3
2nd
2


8th
2
3
2nd
2


9th
2
4
2nd
2


10th
3
4
2nd
2


11th
3
4
2nd
2


12th
3
5
2nd
3


13th
3
5
3rd
3


14th
3
5
3rd
3


15th
3
6
3rd
3


16th
3
6
3rd
3


17th
3
6
3rd
3


18th
3
7
3rd
4


19th
3
7
4th
4


20th
3
8
4th
4


That's assuming you keep these abilities (see below).


Rage Caster
At third level when you choose this path, you may cast spells during a rage, as long as they are granted by this archetype. During your rage, if you attack and damage an opponent or take damage, you may cast a spell or cantrip as a bonus action.

Spirit Weapon
At 6th level, if you cast a spell by spending a use of rage, you gain +2 damage on all melee weapon attacks until the end of your next turn, and any melee weapon you wield overcomes damage resistance as if it were magical. The damage bonus stacks with your rage damage bonus, if applicable.

Spirit Power
If you cast a spell on your turn and go into a rage as a bonus action, you may spend two additional uses of rage to gain the ability to cast that spell as a bonus action every turn until your rage ends, but only against an enemy you hit with a melee weapon attack. These castings do not count against your daily uses of rage.
Again, you really need an additional thematic component here. You're taking up a lot of uses of rage: that's a mechanic that's already balanced for a certain number of uses per long rest. You're effectively interfering with the base class's ability to function, instead of granting additional benefits from the subclass.

I would either restructure spellcasting, or remove it entirely, leaving uses of rage to be consumed when you use an invocation to cast a spell "once using a warlock spell slot."

You aren't (of course) required to agree, but it's about all I can come up with for moving the discussion toward what fits the situation/how to clearly word abilities.