D&D 3.x Other The Age of Warriors (Project Revived!) [Archive]

Elves

2019-02-17, 05:25 PM

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DISCIPLINES!

We'll use The Demented One’s method of learning new disciplines — you don’t have to give up one of your known schools in exchange. After all you’re already limited by maneuvers known and maneuver prereqs.

---------------------------

Update 2020:

Discipline Directory (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OpmSMCwaxAzwXYAUrx8nRaVvAAOjopX-8xNyNJ1Zg5k/edit?usp=sharing) < Look here for the current versions of each disc

The above link has the current version of each discipline. It's a WIP and almost all the disciplines are in various states of incompletion.

---------------------------

Massive shoutout to The Demented One, sirpercival, ErrantX, Xefas, Edge, and the others who wrote these.

ACCEPTED
These need QA

Army of One (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5710173#post5710173) - Fight many oppos
Black Rain (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?99529-The-Sublime-Gunslinger-s-Art-Black-Rain-Discipline&p=5471518#post5471518) - Guns
Bloodstained Gutter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?220910-Have-you-ever-heard-of-the-Marquis-de-Fantailer-Martial-quot-Discipline-quot) - Streetfighting
Broken Blade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?122533-The-Broken-Blade-(3-5-ToB-Discipline)-PEACH) - Fight other martial adepts
Chthonic Serpent (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?131567-3-5-Tome-of-Battle-Discipline-Chthonic-Serpent-(PEACH)) - Whips n trips
Coin's Edge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?75548-Feeling-Lucky-Punk-Discipline) - Luck
Cosmic Imperator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?259105-3-5-Cosmic-Imperator-Discipline)
Dancing Leaf (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?85614-I-m-A-Leaf-On-The-Wind-Discipline) - Evasive fighting
Event Horizon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?205790-Event-Horizon-(3-5-Discipline-PEACH)) - Gravity
Falling Star (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?143785-Refactoring-ToB-archery) - Archery
Fool's Grip (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?67879-Fool-s-Grip-Discipline) - Improvised weapons
Lightning Fox (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?240364-3-5-The-Flash-Vanguard-Class-amp-Lightning-Fox-Discipline&p=13098590#post13098590)
Narrow Bridge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?113982-The-Narrow-Bridge-(3-5-undeath-themed-ToB-discipline))
Ocean Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?45205-Maneuvers-Ocean-Soul-Discipline)
Oncoming Storm (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?54816-Beware-the-Oncoming-Storm-Discipline) - Kind of dull
Penitent Martyr (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?197195-Forgiveness-is-key-Penitent-Martyr-Discipline-3-5-ToB)
Relentless Dusk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?256466-3-5-Discipline-Relentless-Dusk-Oblivion-Setesh-and-the-Servants-of-True-Death) (combined with parts of Void Messiah (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?186173-3-5-Void-Messiah-Discipline))
Scarlet Bravura (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?101008-Just-Who-The-Hell-Do-You-Think-We-Are!-Discipline&p=5569037#post5569037)
Sleeping Goddess (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?98409-Sleeping-Goddess-Discipline)
Soothed Beast (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?583376-A-Martial-Discipline-For-Pacifists-(PEACH)) - complete & QA
Sublime Tapestry (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=1351.0) - Meta discipline
Twin Spirit (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?40991-Twin-Spirit-Discipline) - Mounted
Venerable Battlefield (https://web.archive.org/web/20140916075828/minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7007.0) - For gods
Witch Razor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?102869-Witch-Razor-Discipline) - Occult
Wyrm's Might (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?583822-Wyrm-s-Might-martial-discipline-(Designed-for-The-Age-of-Warriors)-PEACH!) - Dragon

—Planar Disciplines—
Far Realm (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?61164-Footsteps-1&p=3410915#post3410915) - Far Realm
Infinite Torment (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?102215-ToB-Discipline-Infinite-Torment) - Abyssal
Golden Saint (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?76150-Golden-Saint-Exalted-Martial-Arts-Discipline) - Exalted; nonlethal
Kaleidoscopic Dream (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?86163-Kaleidoscopic-Dream-Discipline) - Limbo
Ninefold Damnation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?98474-ToB-Discipline-Ninefold-Damnation) - Diabolic
Stygian Nightmare (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?162222-Stygian-Nightmare-3-5-ToB-Discipline-PEACH) - Hades, Gehenna
Quicksilver Aegis (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?86266-Quicksilver-Aegis-Discipline) - Mechanus, law

—Epic Disciplines— (rules for them by The Demented One)
Celestial Impetus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267881-Celestial-Impetus-(Epic-Martial-Discipline))
Devouring Crypt (https://web.archive.org/web/20140916111253/minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8822.0)
Dread Crown (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?76218-Dread-Crown-for-Fiendish-Martial-Adepts-Discipline) (remake as Epic Discipline)
Invincible Sword Princess (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?134459-Epic-Martial-Discipline-Invincible-Sword-Princess)
March of Aeons (http://www.ruleofcool.com/smf/index.php/topic,775.0.html)
Rainbow's End (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267166-Seven-Forged-Sword-(Epic-Martial-Discipline))
Shattered Glass (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?581281-The-Age-of-Warriors-(Project-Revived!)&p=23919239#post23919239)

—Lighthearted Disciplines—
Falling Anvil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?122824-(3-5)-Discipline-Falling-Anvil-v-2-(P-E-A-C-H-))
Carnal Blossom
Edge Country Hurricane (https://web.archive.org/web/20140916123301/minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2334.0)
Hero's Edge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?169940-We-reject-physics-in-the-name-of-AWESOME!-(ToB-Discipline-repost-3-5-WIP))

—Machinist Disciplines—
Akasha's Timepiece (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?232080-3-5-Desolate-Arbitrator-Discipline&p=12689742#post12689742)
Crystalline Optics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?262719-3-5-Martial-Discipline-Crystalline-Optics-College)
Entropy Dynamo or Entropy Flux (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?262885-3-5-Martial-Discipline-Entropy-Dynamo-College)
Experimental Alchemy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?263846-3-5-Martial-Discipline-Experimental-Alchemy-College)

MAYBE
Which of these should be included? - Opinions please

Anima River (https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Anima_River_(3.5e_Martial_Discipline))
Mental Grip (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?138037-Mental-Grip-Psionic-ToB-Discipline) - Telekinesis.
Throne Shadow (rename) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?235741-3-5-Throne-Shadow-Discipline) - revise&complete

—Poet (sublime bard) disciplines— these need serious work
Divine Muse (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?98668-New-Discipline-Divine-Muse-PEACH)
Infinite Shore (https://web.archive.org/web/20140916014936/http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7450) - Dreams

OVERLAPPING DISCIPLINES

—Antimagic/Magekiller—
Mystic Eclipse (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?259811-Mystic-Eclipse-(Martial-Discipline))
Sublime Sovereignity (https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Occult_Sovereignty_(3.5e_Martial_Discipline))
Sacred Might (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Sacred_Might_Discipline)

Elves

2019-02-17, 05:26 PM

Base Classes

Animist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?582140-The-Animist-(new-take-on-TOB-ranger)) (TOB Ranger)

Machinist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?262484-3-5-Machinist-I-put-some-steampunk-in-your-swordsage) (needs reworking)

Poet (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?589546-Poet-(TOB-bard)-WIP-PEACH) (TOB Bard)

Warlord (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?605497-Warlord-(Tome-of-Battle-marshal)) (TOB Marshal/4e Warlord)

Preexisting Classes

Soulborn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?602176-Incarnum-Tome-of-Battle-crossover-soulborn-redo-new-melds-new-discipline-(PEACH))

Swashbuckler (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?134167-Martial-Swashbuckler-ToB-base-class)

Martial ACFs for Core classes [WIP] (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?581281-The-Age-of-Warriors-(Project-Revived!)&p=23800676#post23800676)

Binder - two new vestiges: Reshar, Lord of the Nine Swords (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?54640-Reshar-Lord-of-the-Nine-Swords-Vestige) and Kaziir-Thet, Stealer of Clarity (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?581840-Kaziir-Thet-Stealer-of-Clarity-(3-5-Binder-Vestige)-PEACH&p=23730262#post23730262).

Epic Progression for Crusader, Swordsage and Warblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?95516-Epic-Martial-Adept-Progressions-and-Feats)

Elves

2019-02-17, 05:27 PM

Prestige Classes

S/O to Krimm, Demented One and the rest.

Adept Hunter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=7923195&postcount=13)
Bladebinder (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?610751-Bladebinder-(PRC-martial-adept-binder-theurge))
Blade Operant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?103016-Secret-Agent-Man-PrC&p=5687663#post5687663)
Braveheart Bravo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?101179-Braveheart-Bravo-PrC&p=5581750#post5581750)
Brother of the Diamond Tusk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?143066-ToB-PrC-3-5-(Final)-BOAR-CAVALRY!-Brother-of-the-Diamond-Tusk)
Crimson Banner Executor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?139764-Star-guided-blade-of-crimson-3-5-PrC-ToB)
Demonspawn Harbinger (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?610657-Demonspawn-Harbinger-(PRC-martial-adept-warlock-theurge))
Dreaming Lotus Assassin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?88074-Of-Course-I-m-Not-Assassinating-You-Why-Do-You-Ask-PrC&p=4726582#post4726582)
Duke of the Last Light (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?245051-3-5-ToB-PrC-quot-Death-beats-Her-wings-for-you-quot-PEACH)
Enlightened Budoka (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?83488-Wax-On-Wax-Off-PrC)
Errant Blademaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?52597-Errant-Blademaster-PrC)
Knight of the Fractured Prism (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?233385-3-5-PrC-ToB-Knights-of-the-Fractured-Prism-PEACH)
Knight of the Word (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?610828-Knight-of-the-Word-(PRC-martial-adept-truenamer-theurge))
Leviathan-Born (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?104096-Leviathan-Born-Martial-PrC&p=5742363#post5742363)
Madspawn Broodling (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?74277-Madspawn-Broodling-PrC)
Master of One (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?134165-Master-of-One-ToB-PrC)
Oracle Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?30165-Oracle-Knight-PrC)
Pragmatist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?137699-ToB-Pragmatist-(PrC-for-mundane-fighters))
Seeker of Lost Swords (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?611297-Seeker-of-Lost-Swords-(a-new-martial-adept-arcane-casting-PRC)))
Soul Disciple (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?86814-Soul-Disciple-Base-Class&p=4651796#post4651796)
Spellfire Banisher (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?117077-Spellfire-Banisher&p=6415945#post6415945)
Student of Nine Claws (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?137203-ToB-Student-of-Nine-Claws-(PrC-for-monsters)&p=7625008#post7625008)
Sublime Form Master (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?137256-(3-5)-(ToB)-Lets-try-this-as-a-PrC-instead-(PEACH)&p=7630527#post7630527)
Sublime Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?54338-Sublime-Warrior-PrC)
Thousand Arrow Archer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?76147-The-Thousand-Arrow-Archer-PrC)
Unveiled Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?87472-Like-the-Unmasked-Fiend-but-a-dragon-PrC)
Warforged Armorlord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?99062-Adamantine-almost-to-the-very-soul!-PrC)
Warsmith (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?77619-Another-Spirit-Lord-PrC)
Whirlwind Heir (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?70472-Whirlwind-Heir-PrC')

PrC Variants
Alternate Vindicators (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=7923195&postcount=13) (edit)
ToB blackguard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?69427-Another-take-on-the-Blackguard-PrC)- Maybe this would be better as a crusader class variant that swapped Stone Dragon for Shadow Hand and had evil class features?

Elves

2019-02-17, 05:32 PM

Discipline Weapons

Legacy weapon user costs getting removed obviously.

For building these swords, not going to be constrained by the crappy WOL list of possible abilities.

Army of One - One Man Stand, animated shield.
Black Rain - Jude's Jurisprudence, revolver and Outlaw's Equalizer, shotgun
Bloodstained Gutter - Famous Prison Shiv
Broken Blade - Swordbane, a swordbreaker that can rust magic weapons. It destroyed the Sublime Tapestry sword.
Chthonic Serpent - Venomchain
Coin’s Edge - Possibility, the Original Luckblade
Cosmic Imperator - The Ego Scepter
Dancing Leaf -
Event Horizon - Swandemure, the Sword of Lightness [light] and Weightthrust, the Gravity Spear [heavy]
Hero's Edge - Laserbeam Ultrasword, katana
Falling Anvil - Frying Pan of Doom, Vlax’s Rubber Chicken
Falling Star - Longbow (seeking)
Fool’s Grip - The Universal Weapon
[Mass archery discipline] -
Narrow Bridge - Scales of Balance, quarterstaff, updated from WoL like Desert Wind was.
Ocean Soul - Coral’s Bite, trident, also updated from WoL, and Ocean's Fury, khopesh
Penitent Martyr - Remorse, flail
Phoenix Feather - Magic elven longbow [force + probably splitting]
Relentless Dusk - Camonglane, Mace of Oblivion
Scarlet Bravura - Blood Promise and Nematryon, the Leader’s Dare
Sublime Tapestry - The Hilt (the blade was destroyed by Swordbane). (Just looked, what a great coincidence: “Alone, it is an incomplete style, like a sword hilt without the blade.” )
Twin Spirit - Heartfallen, lance
Venerable Battlefield - The Godsword, fullblade
Witch Razor -

—Planar Disciplines—
The weapons of the planar disciplines weren’t made by normal means, but rather were pulled out of the essence of their plane by powerful outsiders in ages past.

Infinite Torment - “Flamescourge" or something dramatic like that
Golden Saint - The Sword of Love, aurorum greatsword
Kaleidoscopic Dream - Anzriposte, meteor hammer
Ninefold Damnation - cornugon spiked chain or a pitchfork [axiomatic, unholy, flaming]
Far Realm - The World Wound
Stygian Nightmare - a scythe [stygian]
Quicksilver Aegis - The Quicksilver Aegis, defensive item which turns you into a being of liquid mercury, and the Axiom Axe.

Elves

2019-02-17, 05:38 PM

Monsters

Monsters document (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1il7SzC7AkrANtnOuWNiyEuqyb0tVdZNOIVkz5mn91_8/edit?usp=sharing) (WIP)

Links to originals:
Aay-y-y!
(http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?83843-Aay-y-y!-Creature[/url] IMG: http://t07.deviantart.net/1ZPdy1g2KDzLhlU2CSe47qWtEdU=/fit-in/300x900/filters:no_upscale():origin()/pre09/a2e8/th/pre/i/2008/173/2/f/aay_y__y_by_nny2.jpg)Alabaster Raven (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?581281-The-Age-of-Warriors-(Project-Revived!)&p=23806952#post23806952)
Jiang Shi (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?29735-Jiang-Shi-Creature)
Hounds of Reshar
[URL="http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?100981-This-ll-throw-you-for-a-loop-well-maybe-2-3rds-of-a-loop-3-Monsters"]Shayal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?581281-The-Age-of-Warriors-(Project-Revived!)&p=24038329#post24038329) and Shanaiyel (upgraded version)
New devils: Examiner Devil (Bruudithin), Infernal General (Varkigon), Unholy Communer (Kazathon) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?85327-More-of-the-most-ancient-of-evils-Updated-3-monsters); Greater Chain Devil (Dorokusai) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?134228-3-5-ToB-Monster-The-Dorokusai-(PEACH))
New rakshasas (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1w2Bq8qIy9m_g6rGikk1rTLQJOjfiBPvXSlTjtN9rYCI/edit)
Script Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?10460-Born-of-the-Nine-Swords-Creature)
Tittering Brick Squirrel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?140707-(3-5)-(ToB)-A-Vexing-Foe-(Creature)-(PEACH))

Elves

2019-02-17, 08:05 PM

[reserved for anything else.]

Last notes:

- Yes, this is about a splatbook from 13 years ago that will never again be relevant.

- Next update in a couple days.

JoshuaZ

2019-02-17, 09:19 PM

I am very happy that this is being revived (as can probably be guessed from my signature). Slight egotistical question: The original Age of Warriors listed my Narrow Bridge discipline as a possibility. Is there a reason you haven't listed it anywhere?

Saintheart

2019-02-17, 09:24 PM

Nice to see this one back!

I actually do have two I could add - I always meant to follow this up with you, but ... didn't. :)

The first one is already mentioned under the already-accepted Chthonic Serpent discipline, which you could bring out into the Monster section if you wanted - the Dorokusai (Greater Chain Demon) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?134228-3-5-ToB-Monster-The-Dorokusai-(PEACH)). It only uses maneuvers from the Chthonic Serpent discipline and ToB.

The second one is an orphan from years and years back, but it's a PrC I made for this enterprise: the Brother of the Diamond Tusk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?143066-ToB-PrC-3-5-(Final)-BOAR-CAVALRY!-Brother-of-the-Diamond-Tusk), a mounted PrC; the concept is essentially Dwarven Boar Cavalry. (I have to reformat the tables to new forum script, that's how old it is ;) )

Brother of the Diamond Tusk is mostly-compatible in that it uses ToB and the accepted Army of One discipline, but the only part that might be contingent or need some reworking is the fact it has the option to pull maneuvers from the Twin Spirit school, which I see you're still considering. Obviously I have a conflict of interest, but I'd love to see Twin Spirit go in. It's a wonderful niche discipline in that nothing else to my mind replicates, and the idea of a semi-mystic mounted combat adept is just great. I'd be willing to go in and see if I can rework the discipline if it's a matter of making it a bit more interesting.

In addition, and on a related note: another mounted PrC that uses Twin Spirit is Krimm's Eaglewing Striker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?74810-Flying-on-the-wings-of-an-eagle-PrC) which I used as a major template to build the Brother of the Diamond Tusk. I don't see that one mentioned, but, again, announcing my conflict of interest, I'd love to see this one in here as well. They could be a nice and very specific pair of PrCs for Twin Spirit.

Elves

2019-02-18, 01:38 AM

The original Age of Warriors listed my Narrow Bridge discipline as a possibility. Is there a reason you haven't listed it anywhere?

I did read that one, it's evocative. Added. Would you mind it being swordsage-only? It's another way to differentiate it from the other death disciplines, and I don't think crusaders (or warblades) would be into its nuanced and monastic nature.

Oh, hey Saintheart. I was a fan of your RHOD handbook back in the day.

I always meant to follow this up with you, but ... didn't. :)

FYI, I was *not* on the original team for this. My much younger self read it though, and just now coming back I realized it was never finished.

Hence, please don't hesitate to question my decisions, I'm only here so that it gets done.

Dwarves riding giant boars is a kind of terrifying image if you imagine all the enraged oinking and screaming. Added.

Moved Twin Spirit to included, we do need a mount discipline, though I think it's bland in parts, with only a few maneuvers fulfilling the title concept.

Re Eaglewing Striker. I felt it wasn't centered on the Sublime Way enough, since the eagle is the centerpiece.

Second, concept didn't really do it for me as giant eagles a) seem over-specific yet not specific enough and b) should really only be able to carry someone in their claws. These two are fluff though; could change the steed to something more overtly magical and connected to the Sublime Way -- a ziz or a new creature. Or generalize it for any flying mount.

(Just to explain more, I'd like for the PRCs here to not just be using Tome of Battle's mechanics to describe old archetypes, but rather to invent new concepts that are bound specifically to the Sublime Way.)

JoshuaZ

2019-02-18, 11:31 AM

Yeah, I read that one, it's evocative. Added. Would you mind it being swordsage-only? It's another way to differentiate it from the other death disciplines, and I don't think crusaders (or warblades) would be into its nuanced and monastic nature.

That's a valid point. I'd be perfectly ok with that restriction. We may also want to consider for the project renaming my Broken Blade discipline since Pathfinder's Path of War made a discipline by that name, and so renaming it may help reduce confusion.

Eldan

2019-02-18, 11:38 AM

OH GOD THAT WAS SEVEN YEARS AGO I'M SO OLD.
(Ugh.)

JMS

2019-02-18, 12:11 PM

I'd be in for this, though my homebrew talent is untried. I could get the Epic parts up and running, since I'm more familiar with that. Should we include some of BelGarath's and other's Epic Destinies? Krim's feats? We should have a sepreat section for that material, if included, since it's... Specialized.

Also, Fully support the removing of penalties for legacy weapons, but archery needs more support than one disipline.
This might help: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?143785-Refactoring-ToB-archery

Edit: I'll dig up links for epic later.

Elves

2019-02-18, 01:28 PM

We may also want to consider for the project renaming my Broken Blade discipline since Pathfinder's Path of War made a discipline by that name, and so renaming it may help reduce confusion.

Thanks for alerting me to that book since it looks like ErrantX wrote for it and they used Silver Crane. They also used Sleeping Goddess, but I don't know if that was with Demented One's permission since his sig says he's fine with his homebrew being used in anything.

Fortunately, both of those were on the "iffy" list.

Since they didn't actually use your discipline, I personally don't think it's a problem that the names coincide, especially as it's a better fit for yours. Alternative names: Culpable Hand, Honor Kept, Lightning Duel, Blade Lock - none of those are as good.

I'd be in for this...

Help with the epic parts would be great. There are the two discipline conversions for example, most importantly Dread Crown.

Here are the relevant Epic Destinies from this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?233739-Game-Character-Compendium) if you want to look through them. I will later.
1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?501459-Epic-Destinies-The-Nine-Blades-(3-5-Epic-ToB))
2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?372501-3-5-ToB-Epic-Destiny-The-Transcendent-Striker)
3 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?263284-3-5-ToB-Epic-Destiny-The-Sublime-Master)
4 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=12621260&postcount=115)
5 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=12958300&postcount=2)
6 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=10887776&postcount=3)
7 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=10987955&postcount=12)
8 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=12958300&postcount=2)
9 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?108230-Oni-No-Kamen-Bleach-Spoilery-3-5-Epic-Destiny)

Ranged Ranger

2019-02-18, 04:44 PM

This looks like a really cool project.

I personally really like the Dancing Leaf Discipline. I haven't read through all of the Disciplines on the Maybe list, but Event Horizon and Hero's Edge both look like fun, and I definitely like the flavor of Dancing Goddess

For when you're ready to deal with the feats section, I made one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?542277-Homebrew-Tome-of-Battle-feat) that I don't think is on any compiled list.

JMS

2019-02-18, 04:46 PM

Thanks for alerting me to that book since it looks like ErrantX wrote for it and they used Silver Crane. They also used Sleeping Goddess, but I don't know if that was with Demented One's permission since his sig says he's fine with his homebrew being used in anything.

Help with the epic parts would be great. There are the two discipline conversions for example, most importantly Dread Crown.

Here are the relevant Epic Destinies from this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?233739-Game-Character-Compendium) if you want to look through them. I will later.
1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?501459-Epic-Destinies-The-Nine-Blades-(3-5-Epic-ToB))
2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?372501-3-5-ToB-Epic-Destiny-The-Transcendent-Striker)
3 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?263284-3-5-ToB-Epic-Destiny-The-Sublime-Master)
4 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=12621260&postcount=115)
5 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=12958300&postcount=2)
6 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=10887776&postcount=3)
7 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=10987955&postcount=12)
8 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=12958300&postcount=2)
9 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?108230-Oni-No-Kamen-Bleach-Spoilery-3-5-Epic-Destiny)
I’ll look through the Epic stuff later, but if I recall, it’s mostly good. For PoW, we need a decision on disciplines in there, and what to do for stuff like Sleeping Goddess, which isn’t an exact copy, IIRC.

Elves

2019-02-18, 05:50 PM

For PoW, we need a decision on disciplines in there, and what to do for stuff like Sleeping Goddess, which isn’t an exact copy, IIRC.

The only 3 overlapping disciplines are Silver Heron, Iron Tortoise and Sleeping Goddess.

Heron and Tortoise obviously nixed, since it's Errant publishing his homebrew and would be redundant anyways.

Tortoise is unfortunate, have to either start from scratch on or bin the warblade tank discipline.

Losing Heron is no issue as there's Golden Saint to fill the celestial role.

Sleeping Goddess is only off limits if Demented got paid for it, I'll PM Errant though he's been gone since '17. Wouldn't be huge loss, like my note for it said I want to keep sublime way separate from psi and it overlapped with Diamond Mind thematically.

POW's take on ranger is not bad although AOW's ranger shouldn't have mentions of ki. Also, anyone who plays a class called stalker that learns the Stalker Arts is asking for some jokes.

JMS

2019-02-18, 05:55 PM

The only 3 overlapping disciplines are Silver Heron, Iron Tortoise and Sleeping Goddess.

Heron and Tortoise obviously nixed, since it's Errant publishing his homebrew and would be redundant anyways.

Tortoise is unfortunate, have to either start from scratch on or bin the warblade tank discipline.

Losing Heron is no issue as there's Golden Saint to fill the celestial role.

There are a few more that are a name swap of difference, I built a Jade Throne specialist, which mirrors Scarlet Throne, others I can’t recall without some time at the list of disciplines.

Also, Warrior’s way has the wildheart, made a sublime Barb/Ranger

Eldan

2019-02-19, 04:51 AM

By the way, you should probably take my Bloodstained Gutter off the discipline list. IT was a nice idea, but it never got above level 4 and I still have no idea how to finish it.

Should martial soulknives be a thing? I occasionally try to make them, but it always comes down to me to soulknife just being too narrow a thing to build an entire class around. It seems like one class feature, not an entire class.

Have you considered making a psychic discipline based on soulknives perhaps? Or a prestige class (requirements: diamond blade, one psychic discipline)? A feat chain?

Same for Bard, really. White Raven already covers most of what I'd feel a martial bard would do.

Also, Dancing Leaf should absolutely be on there. I love that discipline and I've used it before on characters.

khadgar567

2019-02-19, 06:14 AM

carnal blossom discipline link not working

JMS

2019-02-19, 07:06 AM

Elves

2019-02-19, 12:32 PM

Same for Bard, really. White Raven already covers most of what I'd feel a martial bard would do.

Twin Dragon Chord Technique! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esFO34xs22Q)

Or what if it were reliant on pre-combat buffing? People would gain buffs by reading their poetry or hearing them perform (maybe the buff could be access to martial maneuvers themselves?). This makes a lot of sense to me, flavorwise but also mechanically in terms of the support character giving their teammates access to extra abilities, not just flat bonuses.

Edit: if it were epic poetry, the buff could be because people take on aspects of the heroic warriors the tale describes. There could even be two categories of buff, narrative and lyrical (and instrumental?).

What I’d like for the AOW bard is a class who is actually a bard, rather than a melee fighter. For example, Demented One’s Warrior-Poet is about seeing “the poetry of battle”, which IMO is not a distinct enough premise especially when swordsages are already noted to be artsy.

Plus I’d like to show the idea that the Sublime Way can be used for other things than combat — while still not confusing it with magic — and this seems good for that, especially since poetry is already linked to the “sublime”.

I like the name Poet for this class because it's a more specific version of Bard, same as Paladin>Crusader. And you can differentiate them with a fun kind of enmity -- "pfah, bards are common performers, not true poets", etc.

----------

Soulknife, I did like the concept of them conjuring the Nine Swords as their mindblades, again because it lets those swords get put in a campaign without the story having to revolve around them.

But you're frankly right that this is overspecific. It would be better as a PRC for which you take a 1 level soulknife dip. Vorpal Cog looks cool too.

This only leaves the question of the TOB ranger.

Bloodstained Gutter
The concept (and name) are great though. I can take a stab at finishing it, if nothing else it can be included in a “fledgling disciplines” section.

Dancing Leaf
Added

carnal blossom discipline link not working
Google cache (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:dZ142Ao7C3sJ:bg-archive.minmaxforum.com/index.php%3Ftopic%3D3726.0+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-b-1-d)

JoshuaZ

2019-02-19, 04:06 PM

Elves

2019-02-19, 04:34 PM

That would be awesome.

JMS

2019-02-19, 04:51 PM

Also, regarding the need to build a Knight of the Word PrC, I'd be happy to do so if people didn't mind that instead of standard truenaming it used Kellus's Way Words Work system (which is much better than the standard truenamer which is worth at least 2.5 headaches).

I’d be partial to using Kyudo’s (I think) Book of Words, which has the advantage of back porting to ToM with little work, maybe with a Kellus conversion? I just feel that requiring a new system (Kellus only keeps fluff.) is a bit much.

JoshuaZ

2019-02-19, 08:54 PM

I’d be partial to using Kyudo’s (I think) Book of Words, which has the advantage of back porting to ToM with little work, maybe with a Kellus conversion? I just feel that requiring a new system (Kellus only keeps fluff.) is a bit much.

Yeah, that's a reasonable point. I'll see if I can review his version enough to feel comfortable homebrewing with it. (Also for anyone else reading this, the user name is Kyeudo and the fix can be found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?217713-A-Book-of-Words-An-Expanded-Truenamer-Fix-PEACH)).

Edit: Actually the link in that thread to the PDF appears to be broken. I have a saved copy but I don't know any easy link to the rules. If someone else can find a copy online we can point to, that would be great. Otherwise, I'm hesitant to homebrew for something using a homebrew set of rules which aren't actually available to most people.

Elves

2019-02-19, 09:09 PM

it's on scribd at least (https://www.scribd.com/document/20615649/Truenamer-Homebrew)

You're the one volunteering, it's up to you.

This is pretty much what sidebars are for though, and converting a PRC is like 3 abilities.

I personally prefer the Kellus system. But again it's easy to sidebar-convert.

Eldan

2019-02-20, 08:42 AM

Twin Dragon Chord Technique! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esFO34xs22Q)

Or what if it were reliant on pre-combat buffing? People would gain buffs by reading their poetry or hearing them perform (maybe the buff could be access to martial maneuvers themselves?). This makes a lot of sense to me, flavorwise but also mechanically in terms of the support character giving their teammates access to extra abilities, not just flat bonuses.

Edit: if it were epic poetry, the buff could be because people take on aspects of the heroic warriors the tale describes. There could even be two categories of buff, narrative and lyrical (and instrumental?).

What I’d like for the AOW bard is a class who is actually a bard, rather than a melee fighter. For example, Demented One’s Warrior-Poet is about seeing “the poetry of battle”, which IMO is not a distinct enough premise especially when swordsages are already noted to be artsy.

Plus I’d like to show the idea that the Sublime Way can be used for other things than combat — while still not confusing it with magic — and this seems good for that, especially since poetry is already linked to the “sublime”.

I like the name Poet for this class because it's a more specific version of Bard, same as Paladin>Crusader. And you can differentiate them with a fun kind of enmity -- "pfah, bards are common performers, not true poets", etc.

I mean, that is a great idea, and I'd love to see it, but I see two massive problems with it.

a) How do you fit pre-combat buffs into the paradigm of stances and strikes? This seems the wrong mechanical framework for that kind of class.
b) If the poet's main power is pre-combat buffing, what do they do during combat? As much as I like out of combat utility and roleplaying scenes, one can't deny that combat often takes out significant amounts of time in any given session. And if you have an hour or even just half an hour of combat, the player needs something to do in that time, other than watching their companions be awesome with their buffs.

Elves

2019-02-20, 08:29 PM

b) If the poet's main power is pre-combat buffing, what do they do during combat?

The buffing would be a class feature, and then they'd get leader-y maneuvers on top of it (edited versions of Divine Muse and Lost Lyrics). There should also be a CHA discipline with animeish music moves like in the youtube link, both for theme and so as to not mandate MAD.

Alternately, the buffing could be from maneuvers, and then they get a relatively high number of maneuvers but have to split them between in-combat and out-of-combat.

a) How do you fit pre-combat buffs into the paradigm of stances and strikes? This seems the wrong mechanical framework for that kind of class.

To be super boring, it could just let people act like they've got Martial Study for a maneuver. Stance granting could be higher level. (The flexibility+saved slot hopefully making up for the fact that you can buy this with a magic item.) But that seems too basic. I’ll try and think of something.

If nothing else works, could always default to a long-lasting Inspire Courage (longer to set up, but would at least not take up the bard’s first combat turn).

————

I’ll do a draft for this class ASAP, but first am going to finish up this fluff writing. As a novice homebrewer the first draft for the class is assured to have problems, but it'll be something to start with.

JoshuaZ

2019-02-20, 09:00 PM

So, initial draft of Knight of the Word is up in this thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?581552-Knight-of-the-Word-(A-Truenaming-ToB-prestige-class-for-3-5)-PEACH) I suspect it is going to need a lot of balancing and probably other things before it is good to go. So feel free to head over there and critique it to shreds.

Cosi

2019-02-20, 10:40 PM

JoshuaZ

2019-02-20, 10:59 PM

I've consider something like this periodically. Some things from my notes, without much attention paid to the thread:

1. Most of the existing martial classes should be given ACFs that give them maneuvers and are shameless powerups. Like, "Trap Sense for Warblade maneuver progression" shameless. I'd give each class one core discipline plus one discipline of their choice (e.g. Rogue gets Shadow Hand + Any Other).
2. The existing classes should get more maneuvers. Probably what they have now plus one per character level. They should also get a free pick discipline. Maybe not the Swordsage, or maybe swap Stone Dragon for a free pick.
3. Swordsage needs a new refresh mechanic. I like "refresh maneuvers when you switch stance", but there are a variety of possibilities. Also probably full BAB.
4. On a similar note to 1, there should be rules for retrofitting non-ToB martial PrCs with maneuver progression.
5. I think expanding existing disciplines is generally going to be more productive than writing new ones. It is currently quite difficult to put together a character who is a master of a particular discipline, despite the fluff presenting that as the default.
6. Tome of Battle maneuvers work best for characters fighting with a two-handed weapon, and that's conceptually limiting. I don't really think writing disciplines for other fighting styles is a good fix for this.
7. The disciplines should come with utility powers, either as maneuvers or as a separate track. Being a master of the Shadow Hand should allow you to command, travel through, and shape shadows.

I'm sure I'll think of other stuff at some point.

I think there's a danger of power bloat with some of these things but I'm not sure how much it is an issue; suggestion 2 by itself seems fine but I'd be worried about 3 leading to serious power creep. Re 7- I like the idea of more utility powers, but I'd be concerned if having too many of them makes the classes feel more overtly magical and less combat oriented (although with Shadow Hand that's less of an issue than others.) Also, making some of these changes (2 and 3 in particular) would lead to potential compatibility issues with ToB which would be suboptimal. I strongly agree with 5 and think adding a few more maneuvers to existing disciplines, or collapsing/fusing some currently separate disciplines may be a good idea.

Cosi

2019-02-20, 11:12 PM

but I'd be worried about 3 leading to serious power creep.

The Swordsage refreshing maneuvers slightly more often is just not a big deal. You could get all your maneuvers at will and that would not be problematic from a power perspective, it would just be kind of boring.

Re 7- I like the idea of more utility powers, but I'd be concerned if having too many of them makes the classes feel more overtly magical and less combat oriented (although with Shadow Hand that's less of an issue than others.)

The classes should be less (purely) combat oriented. There's more to the game than combat, and insofar as Tome of Battle is intended as a fix to martials, it needs to fix not just their ability to contribute to a fight but their value outside it. As far as "too magical" goes, I think you have already lost the "too magical" crowd by putting Tome of Battle on the table at all. The people you will lose by giving high level Warblades the ability to use imprisonment because they are good at Stone Dragon that you did not already lose to having Warblades is pretty small. And I think you gain some people (myself included) by going full anime.

Also, making some of these changes (2 and 3 in particular) would lead to potential compatibility issues with ToB which would be suboptimal.

I mean, there are already things you need to fix from Tome of Battle like stance progressions. The changes for 2 and 3 fit on a notecard.

PairO'Dice Lost

2019-02-21, 03:43 PM

To be super boring, it could just let people act like they've got Martial Study for a maneuver. Stance granting could be higher level. (The flexibility+saved slot hopefully making up for the fact that you can buy this with a magic item.) But that seems too basic. I’ll try and think of something.

Along the lines of granting stances, what if, instead of doing pre-battle buffs, the poet handed out two-part buffs, one generic buff that applies to everyone and one "You can forego the benefit of a stance to..." benefit like the special stances in the ToB PrCs, and if you use the forego-a-stance benefit you can also hang on to the base buff as long as you're in that pseudo-stance?

Augmenting others' stances makes it synergize more with other martial adepts and makes it fairly distinct from a bard; it could also hand out stances to non-initiators at some point, if you want the second buff to be more widely available. Since those abilities last until you change stances, you could "pre-buff" someone with that benefit (but only as long as they stay in that stance, so there's a tradeoff) but you're not shoehorning some method of pre-buffing into the initiating framework. And where a bard wants to pick one bardic music (or multiple, if he has a way to sustain them) and maintain it throughout the battle, the poet would be more about, well, "the poetry of battle" as he switches between buffs every round as the situation changes and martial adepts can "hold onto" buffs as desired, giving a more flexible and free-flowing feel to its abilities.

7. The disciplines should come with utility powers, either as maneuvers or as a separate track. Being a master of the Shadow Hand should allow you to command, travel through, and shape shadows.

I saw some homebrew on...I want to say MinMaxBoards? that added a new maneuver type, called a "rush" or something like that, which is initiated with a move action and gives some sort of movement- or utility-related benefit. I could definitely see adding in those, plus maybe another maneuver type to cover pure utility stuff (Shadow Jaunt/Stride/Blink already lacks a maneuver type, so those could be moved to that type too), to broaden disciplines beyond combat-relevant maneuvers.

Eldan

2019-02-21, 03:46 PM

It just so happens that I'm currently playing Tyranny, which has what is basically a bard join your party. Her music works by building over time: you start with a slight buff, but the longer you sing, the stronger it gets and at regular intervals you get a resource (I think they were called beats? Breaths?) that you can spend for a bigger effect, but that also starts the buff over from 0. It's quite a nice system.

I.e. Inspire courage: +1 bonus for everyone in the party, an additional +1 every round, to a maximum of +3 (more later levels), dismiss to grant someone [benefit dependent on strike used].

Elves

2019-02-22, 12:20 PM

PRC+discipline fluff done, drafting poet and [ranger].

1. Most of the existing martial classes should be given ACFs

Probably. And agreed, simple ACFs that give 1-2 disciplines are more practical to include than whole class makeovers ("martial fighter", etc).

2. The existing classes should get more maneuvers. Probably what they have now plus one per character level. They should also get a free pick discipline.

More maneuvers, maybe. Free pick not needed IMO. In base-ToB it dilutes identity, and in AOW there are already rules for acquiring new disciplines at minimal cost (or substituting them if starting at l1).

3. Swordsage needs a new refresh mechanic.

Though if adding more maneuvers, seems like that would already be enough to make once per encounter work for them.

5. I think expanding existing disciplines is generally going to be more productive than writing new ones.

Good point.

6. Tome of Battle maneuvers work best for characters fighting with a two-handed weapon, and that's conceptually limiting.

How do you think this could best be fixed?

7. The disciplines should come with utility powers, either as maneuvers or as a separate track.

Yeah very much agreed, and this is the best way to start on 5. Rushes and utility maneuvers it is. As JoshuaZ said, still want to stay distinct from magic.

Along the lines of granting stances, what if, instead of doing pre-battle buffs, the poet handed out two-part buffs, one generic buff that applies to everyone and one "You can forego the benefit of a stance to..." benefit like the special stances in the ToB PrCs, and if you use the forego-a-stance benefit you can also hang on to the base buff as long as you're in that pseudo-stance?

...it could also hand out stances to non-initiators at some point, if you want the second buff to be more widely available.

Nice. Initiators get a head start and then by the time everyone else gets stance buffs, initiators get higher level ones.

Cosi

2019-02-23, 01:46 PM

I saw some homebrew on...I want to say MinMaxBoards? that added a new maneuver type, called a "rush" or something like that, which is initiated with a move action and gives some sort of movement- or utility-related benefit. I could definitely see adding in those, plus maybe another maneuver type to cover pure utility stuff (Shadow Jaunt/Stride/Blink already lacks a maneuver type, so those could be moved to that type too), to broaden disciplines beyond combat-relevant maneuvers.

I think you're very likely to need to expand beyond maneuvers, because even if you allow maneuvers to hold utility effects, they're still basically at-will abilities, which means you're much more limited in what they can do. A Stone Dragon master being able to replicate a Lyre of Building's effect is cool, but if that's a maneuver of any sort, it represents a staggeringly enormous output. That's not to say that Rushes or the like are a bad idea or anything, just that you will need something beyond the standard maneuver system to provide enough utility.

Probably. And agreed, simple ACFs that give 1-2 disciplines are more practical to include than whole class makeovers ("martial fighter", etc).

One of the nice things about giving classes access to maneuvers is that it doesn't require you to do much to the class. Maneuvers are a pointer to an external system, so adding them takes a pretty tiny amount of effort for the reward it grants. About the only class I think needs is a re-write is the Marshal.

Though if adding more maneuvers, seems like that would already be enough to make once per encounter work for them.

Perhaps, but it's a fairly boring paradigm. And I think having the ability to refresh in combat versus not having that would be a good distinction to make between ToB classes and other martial classes with ACFs that grant maneuvers.

How do you think this could best be fixed?

It's hard to say. One thing you can do is remove most or all of the "melee only" restrictions, which makes ranged characters a good deal more viable. Then the big thing is TWF types, who suffer because their basic melee attack does less damage than someone wielding a greatsword in both hands. You could maybe let them attack with each weapon when using a strike, but that potentially tips things too far in the other direction. You could also crank up the number of Counters and Boosts, which would make someone who made non-maneuver full attacks better able to leverage maneuvers. Though obviously those abilities can still be used by more traditional two-handed fighting types.

I think one thing you should do is figure out in advance what fighting styles you think need to be supported, then go in once you have a list of maneuvers to check if those characters actually work. Can you build an archer? A mounted knight? Are those characters reasonably viable, instead of just worse versions of a sword-and-board or two handed Warblade? It's hard to say some of these things in advance, but if you're aware of the problem you can check that you've solved it before declaring your mission complete.

Yeah very much agreed, and this is the best way to start on 5. Rushes and utility maneuvers it is. As JoshuaZ said, still want to stay distinct from magic.

I think any effort to add utility is going to be accused to being like magic, because there simply isn't a lot of non-magic utility out there. Ultimately, it may be better to bite the bullet and try to keep things distinct by moving over-leveled magical effects over to martial initiators.

Eldan

2019-02-23, 02:46 PM

You could make the Lyre of Building a feat, or a stance, that needs to be active as long as you are building. Would totally work.

Cosi

2019-02-23, 03:55 PM

Not 100% sure what you're suggesting. The basic issue is that a Lyre of Building is an effect that is active once a week for a couple of hours. That's a radically different usage constraint than anything in Tome of Battle. Making a stance that worked the way it does would be weird enough that I'm not sure you're gaining anything by trying to fit it into the existing paradigm, and making it a feat is a problem because characters get a super tiny number of feats, and while the Lyre of Building effect is cool, people are not going to take it over Power Attack if you ask them to make that choice. So I think you need some additional place to fit these abilities.

JoshuaZ

2019-02-23, 05:01 PM

Elves

2019-02-23, 05:13 PM

That could just be a utility maneuver with a long cooldown. Or it could be something akin to 4e's rituals, perhaps called Meditations, Revelations or Enlightenments. Epic meditations under bodhi trees, Dragonball-esque 'train for a thousand years in a mystical demiplane', Stone Dragons shaping the earth into a castle like above, etc.

Eldan

2019-02-23, 08:11 PM

I meant it more like "a similar effect".

Give every discipline a few passive effects, maybe. "A master of Stone dragon is also a master craftsman. In any craft where there is stone involved, anyone knowing at least one Stone Dragon Stance they can substitute their initiator level for their craft check. Anyone knowing at least a fifth level Stone Dragon Stances can do the work of ten craftsmen. Anyone knowing at least an eight level stone dragon stance can do the work of 100 craftsmen."

Something like that? Though I wouldn't know what to do with half the disciplines.

JoshuaZ

2019-02-23, 08:27 PM

Elves

2019-02-23, 11:47 PM

Did a draft for the low level binder vestige - Kaziir-Thet, Stealer of Clarity (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?581840-Kaziir-Thet-Stealer-of-Clarity-(3-5-Binder-Vestige)-PEACH&p=23730262#post23730262). Help with balance would be great.

Eldan

2019-02-25, 04:58 AM

Hmm, this is a very interesting idea, that might be very fun and would also not feel too magical. I like this idea a lot.

Help me come up with effects for the other disciplines? Stone Dragon happens to be actually very easy, here, the others aren't as material-bound. My main problem is not making them too... adventure relevant? Like, Shadow hand would tempt me to give them low-light or darkvision, and desert wind something with fire, and both of those sound like they might become too useful while on adventure.

Eldan

2019-02-25, 05:08 AM

I was thinking about the Fluff.

If the Age of Warriors comes after the Temple of Nine Swords, then there has to be a reason for such a flourishing of hundreds of styles. Perhaps we could move a lot forwards in the timeline, making the ToNS be centuries in the past? Some of the styles we are including are obviously very old, especially the planar styles. But others could just be developments of new schools that came up after the fall of the temple? If the temple was the world's main place of fighting education, perhaps it just became too rigid and codified over time, and its fall meant that there was no central place were "correct" style was thought and experimentation discouraged, so there are now hundreds of competing masters and their students, all teaching their own styles?

It would be a very Wuxia setting, then.

And now I'm tempted to make a class based on experimentation and combining styles. Hmm...

Okay, how's this for a base class idea. You get a lot more maneuvers, but your initiator level is considerably lower, so you get lower level maneuvers. Something like a bard progression. But you get access to more disciplines and you get a bonus for mixing disciplines. (I.e. you get an attack bonus if using a boost from one discipline on a strike of another discipline.) Plus maybe a kind of inspiration mechanic, for unusual maneuvers invented on the fly.

Because you're not going to let some crusty old master tell you how to fight.

Elves

2019-02-25, 01:04 PM

Help me come up with effects for the other disciplines? Stone Dragon happens to be actually very easy, here, the others aren't as material-bound. My main problem is not making them too... adventure relevant? Like, Shadow hand would tempt me to give them low-light or darkvision, and desert wind something with fire, and both of those sound like they might become too useful while on adventure.

Desert Wind - "Sunrunning" - can keep running/exercising without tiring as long as the sun is shining on them? Hot body temperature makes them resist cold weather effects? Focus the sun's light to cause fires like if you had a really big magnifying glass? Create mirages?
Devoted Spirit - Obviously, perform miracles.
Diamond Mind - Extremely well-organized? I don't know. Meditation equivalent to divination spells?
Iron Heart - Metalworking/metallurgy
Setting Sun - I don't know. Maybe something related to the Theseus myth since he fought in a similar style. Or some kind of mystical dancing?
Shadow Hand - Something about connection to the plane of shadow/ethereal plane? Conjure gateways, do shadow teleports, or that Shadowdancer thing? Or simply very good at sneaking?
Stone Dragon - Stoneworking
Tiger Claw - Hunting? Wild Empathy?
White Raven - Something equivalent to a free Leadership feat? This would also help solve 'having no allies to help with my maneuvers'

I was thinking about the Fluff.

If the Age of Warriors comes after the Temple of Nine Swords, then there has to be a reason for such a flourishing of hundreds of styles. Perhaps we could move a lot forwards in the timeline, making the ToNS be centuries in the past? Some of the styles we are including are obviously very old, especially the planar styles. But others could just be developments of new schools that came up after the fall of the temple? If the temple was the world's main place of fighting education, perhaps it just became too rigid and codified over time, and its fall meant that there was no central place were "correct" style was thought and experimentation discouraged, so there are now hundreds of competing masters and their students, all teaching their own styles?

It would be a very Wuxia setting, then.

Big timeskip is a good possibility. It might interfere with people's ability to integrate it into their campaigns that use base TOB, but >10 years after the fact, that's way less of a concern than just maybe, possibly, giving them a reason to run a new one.

I made a few stabs at the fluff chapter, with the assumption of minimal timeskip. This was an (overly cheesy) attempt at the start quote for the intro:

You fought well, my student. Like I thought, their corpses bear the tattoo of the Broken Blade. I had no idea those techniques were still being taught. And this only a month since we learned that a master of Infinite Torment is walking the earth again.

Perhaps I have been neglectful by teaching you only of Reshar’s nine Ways. Back when I was young, they were enough—and the tradition they represented seemed valuable—but that was an age of mere theory, of relative peace, of sages, sportsmen, hermits and monastics. Whereas it seems it may be your hard fate to live in an age of warriors.

Come then, and let us speak not of nine swords but of numberless, nor of Reshar but of the Sublime Way in its entirety.

- Harran Turiyeshor

(This was with the concept of some kind of world war being the trigger. To some degree, inevitably, it will be simply that Reshar, while an accomplished and supremely talented individual, is not the be-all and end-all of the Sublime.)

And now I'm tempted to make a class based on experimentation and combining styles. Hmm...

Okay, how's this for a base class idea. You get a lot more maneuvers, but your initiator level is considerably lower, so you get lower level maneuvers. Something like a bard progression. But you get access to more disciplines and you get a bonus for mixing disciplines. (I.e. you get an attack bonus if using a boost from one discipline on a strike of another discipline.) Plus maybe a kind of inspiration mechanic, for unusual maneuvers invented on the fly.

Because you're not going to let some crusty old master tell you how to fight.

I really liked the concept of the Errant Blademaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?52597-Errant-Blademaster-PrC) PrC which is similar. A class that's custom designed to let people try out a bunch of the book's new content seems fitting.

JoshuaZ

2019-02-25, 02:38 PM

I sort of took for granted that any setting specific claim would be at least a generation after Reshar if it was going to be after the Fall of the Temple. Maybe even one hundred years? Since multiple disciplines have fluff about being made in response to events surrounding the Fall, that seems most natural. The Time of Reshar being more legendary and long ago also feels more in keeping with the general themes.

Elves

2019-02-25, 03:45 PM

FYI, TOB says Reshar did his thing "three lifetimes ago", and that the Temple fell one lifetime later, so that's already at least 100y in the past.

Rangers:

There seem to be two ways to go, either they are primarily a hunter with a quarry or they are primarily connected to the environment. Either way they probably aren't going to be training in a school like the others.

If former, should be less generic than eg a World of Warcraft hunter, if latter, should be distinct from druid.

Something Shinto-y and animistic perhaps? With a belief in accessing the Sublime Way via the "essence" or spirits that inhabit objects and places? Via Wiki, in Shinto there are several kinds of places this essence crosses over into the world:

Shintai, temporary reserves of spiritual energy or homes of spirits (the most famous one being Mount Fuji):

The most common shintai are man-made objects like mirrors, swords, jewels (for example comma-shaped stones called magatama), gohei (wands used during religious rites), and sculptures, but they can also be natural objects such as stones, mountains, trees and waterfalls.

(So the ranger's weapons could be shintai, reserves of spiritual energy, and they draw on that energy to perform maneuvers.)

Then there are shrines, which are made to house a spirit and safekeep sacred objects (the stereotypical mini-shrines often dot roadways). Similarly, kamidana are small household altars. It would be cute to incorporate the idea of shrines somehow, give them some function. I don't think it would be too restrictive since the ranger could make altars and probably mini-shrines on their own.

The animal companion could be more like a pal's divine steed - a kami that they summon, akin to some creature from a Studio Ghibli movie (yes, my knowledge of Shinto is pretty shallow). Or those more whimsical kami could be substituted with elementals or sprites.

Either way, that could relate to the shrines or household altars that attract and house kami. And perhaps you get access to different disciplines depending on what kind of kami you have summoned? A luck one giving Coin's Edge and so on.

But it may be cleaner to dish the animal companion and focus on the ranger's weapon as a vessel that houses kami -- or have the kami inhabit the weapon, but it can also emerge to take semi-physical form. Gain an animal companion that can perform maneuvers but then you can't perform maneuvers yourself.

"Animist"?

Cosi

2019-02-26, 08:04 AM

Lyre of Building may be a bad example to think about in terms of utility powers because it such highly variable in power. In straight kill-them-and-take-their-stuff campaigns it is almost useless. In campaigns which involve actual kingdoms and things it is so powerful it might make more sense as a legendary artifact.

Well, so is fabricate. You definitely want some abilities that are more useful during traditional adventures (like flight), but you'll also want some that are useful for kingdom management stuff (like crafting powers). Because existing utility effects do both of those things.

That could just be a utility maneuver with a long cooldown.

I dislike this because I think it weakens one of the stronger attributes of Tome of Battle: that maneuvers are on a unified, relatively simple, resource management system. Adding complexity where some maneuvers can be used once a day, or once an hour, or whatever necessarily means losing that. Of course, adding a non-maneuver subsystem also provides increased complexity.

Of course, some of these things definitely work as maneuvers or stances. For example, you could easily have a Stone Dragon stance that granted burrow + tremorsense, and that would be both useful in combat and outside it without needing any particular usage limits.

Give every discipline a few passive effects, maybe. "A master of Stone dragon is also a master craftsman. In any craft where there is stone involved, anyone knowing at least one Stone Dragon Stance they can substitute their initiator level for their craft check. Anyone knowing at least a fifth level Stone Dragon Stances can do the work of ten craftsmen. Anyone knowing at least an eight level stone dragon stance can do the work of 100 craftsmen."

Something like that?

Tying ability progression to stance level works nicely. New abilities at 1/5/9/15 is a pretty good progression for this. It does make some things awkward though, because you get a very small number of stances (generally one per level of stance). I'm not convinced that's enough depth of utility options. As written, it also means you can only write one suite of utility powers per discipline. Those problems aren't trivial to solve though. I think there are three things you want to do, and they're all at least a little in conflict. First, you want to support single-discipline characters as much as possible, because that's what the fluff suggests as most common, and because its an obvious character archetype (this is one of the reasons I like "expand disciplines" over "new disciplines"). Second, you want people to get a variety of utility abilities. Third, you'd like these things to be symmetric, at least at the level of ability progression (so you don't get less stuff as a White Raven specialist).

Maybe something like "to take an X for a discipline (where X is whatever you call the non-combat stuff), you must know a stance for that discipline, all you Xs scale to your highest level stance". It does mean you don't have to take high level stances, but it also solves some weirdness with your progression where PCs stop getting benefits from their low levels stances if they get high level ones of the same discipline. Maybe hand out an X at 1/7/13 (which means you're writing three per discipline for 12 powers per discipline total), or even make it an optional rule with that as a suggested progression, but notes about alternatives like "only at 1st level" (basically equivalent to your idea) or "every odd/even level" for higher powered campaigns or whatever.

Desert Wind - "Sunrunning" - can keep running/exercising without tiring as long as the sun is shining on them? Hot body temperature makes them resist cold weather effects? Focus the sun's light to cause fires like if you had a really big magnifying glass? Create mirages?

One idea I had for Desert Wind was to give it some of the history-ish divinations to represent lost secrets of the desert. legend lore, hindsight, that kind of thing. I also thought it might be cool to give people the ability to generate Shapesand, as a desert-themed utility power. Fire creation is a good idea, and you can obviously scale that up or down a lot.

Devoted Spirit - Obviously, perform miracles.

Devoted Spirit seems like a great place to put effects like restoration or other status removal that have historically required a Cleric. Not only is it on theme, it also opens Crusaders up for a niche that very few other classes can fill. You could also include effects like planar ally or augury.

Diamond Mind - Extremely well-organized? I don't know. Meditation equivalent to divination spells?

I thought you could go with the sense magic. Stuff like detect magic or arcane sight. Which naturally lends itself to other magic manipulation like dispel magic. This one is tough though, particularly if you're trying to write more than a couple abilities.

Iron Heart - Metalworking/metallurgy

I think Iron Heart could get some crafting-based abilities, maybe even fabricate (re-fluffed as superhuman working speed) at high levels. The Artificer infusions that add weapon properties are an interesting choice here, as is some kind of "object sense". You could also fit in a suite of destructive abilities here, like shatter or some kind of weakness sense. I think you could write some cool fluff about pure Iron Heart masters who only use weapons they forge.

Setting Sun - I don't know. Maybe something related to the Theseus myth since he fought in a similar style. Or some kind of mystical dancing?

Setting Sun could grant light powers. I'm not sure how deep the utility well is here, particularly because Desert Wind and Devoted Spirit are stealing some of the obvious options. You could look for some homebrew disciplines to combine in here (one idea I had was to make this the archery discipline, with arrows as rays of sunlight), and draw from that for utility.

Shadow Hand - Something about connection to the plane of shadow/ethereal plane? Conjure gateways, do shadow teleports, or that Shadowdancer thing? Or simply very good at sneaking?

Honestly there's so much here that I'm pretty sure that no matter how much Shadow Hand utility you wrote up, there would be more for you to write. Your shadow reaches out and grabs things like a mage hand, you can teleport between shadows, you can command shadow puppets that work like unseen servants, you can send your shadow out to spy like an arcane eye, you can create shadow clones of people, you can command Shadows, the list goes on. Especially if you branch out into some of the less common Shadow Hand stuff like cold damage.

Stone Dragon - Stoneworking

Stone Dragon is another one with a lot of options. The idea of a bonus to crafting checks works well, and at high levels there's plenty of stone manipulation. I also like the notion of an imprison-esque effect that lets you trap people in the roots of mountains, as much for the world-building implications as anything. There's also potential here for some abilities about dealing with the spirits of stone.

Tiger Claw - Hunting? Wild Empathy?

Animal attributes are an obvious choice here. Senses, movement speeds, skill bonuses. All of those work pretty well, though many could be stances. You could also give them things like awaken or an animal companion. You could also go with abilities to play into rage or anti-civilization themes that work well for the discipline.

White Raven - Something equivalent to a free Leadership feat? This would also help solve 'having no allies to help with my maneuvers'

At low levels, you could give them the ability to Aid Another for a +4 bonus instead of a +2. heroes' feast works as an all-day buff, some kind of "everyone who isn't Hostile is one step more friendly" ability, Leadership is a good one and you can have modifications like "no cohort" or "extra followers" or "bonus to Leadership score" to fine-tune the power level. One idea I liked (though I had it as part of a Marshal with Maneuvers class re-write) was a squad of Warriors, which helps with the "what do you do if you're the only melee guy" problem.

Eldan

2019-02-26, 12:05 PM

My problem with fire creation for Desert Wind is basically that they can already do that. Or at least as a DM, I would totally allow, say, a strike that deals fire damage to light a campfire. (Setting Sun, despite the name, does not feel to me as if it should have light powers.)

Perhaps a good power instead could be light creation? Just the ability to make body parts or weapons shine like a candle or torch. Light is always something a low-level party needs and this would be neat to have.

Devoted Spirit could get something like a Paladin's lay on hand. If that is too broad.

Diamond Mind... I would give them meditation abilities before dispelling, that doesn't seem to be a thing that that discipline does. Maybe look at Autohypnosis (The skill) for starters? Perhaps they could get the ability to heal themselves of mental effects through meditation. It's also about extremely focused use of force. Perhaps they could do something like taking 20 on strength checks to break objects? Perhaps they can go without food and water, through meditation?

Setting Sun is about... judo moves. Hm. Perhaps instead of throwing enemies around, they could do similar things to structures? A boulder falls on a master of Setting Sun, he just deflects it slightly aside?

I think one thing to keep in mind is that they shouldn't be combat things, they have those from maneuvers already.

JMS

2019-02-26, 03:44 PM

JoshuaZ

2019-02-26, 04:05 PM

Elves

2019-02-26, 04:41 PM

That would be clean, but perhaps get one from class? As feats are still so scarce for melee. That would fulfill what Cosi says, about the default being an adept of one discipline, but then with the option to branch out.

Edit: They could be formatted as tactical feats, potentially. Noncombat equivalents to the combat tactical feats the disciplines already have.

Or they could just be utility maneuvers. I don't actually think any but a couple of the things we've mentioned would be overpowered as at-wills.

I know Eldan mentioned this earlier up, but it seems like most of them could be stances, too. A Shadow Hand stance that lets you travel as a wraith through the plane of shadow, crossing great distances in the mortal world, Diamond Mind meditation stance that gives you benefits if you spend one hour in it, the earth-shaping Stone Dragon stance Eldan mentioned and so on.

Setting Sun is about using cleverness to overcome larger opponents. So I think their shtick should be cleverness and ingenuity. That's not a trait covered by the other disciplines, either.

Perhaps instead of throwing enemies around, they could do similar things to structures?

I think this takes it too far from the purely mechanical, leverage-based heart of the discipline.

But I'm reminded of how in this novel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_King_Must_Die), Theseus, who again is *so* Setting Sun, uses a lever and fulcrum to lift a giant rock. Perhaps SSers have almost MacGyvery resourcefulness? It would fit the theme of the "scrappy hero" that seems tied to the discipline, for example in its legacy weapon story. They could get skill bonuses, create effects equivalent to Grease and Glitterdust, have some effect equivalent to shapesand (refluffed as macgyvering impromptu materials). If Shadow Hand is the "stealthy assassin" side of rogue, then Setting Sun is the "skillmonkey" side. They can break out of jail, or you thrust them in the driver's seat and they learn how to fly the plane on the go, or they figure out how to work the ancient machine.

Elves

2019-02-27, 06:31 PM

Unfinished alpha version of the ranger class, Animist, in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?582140-The-Animist-(TOB-ranger)-first-draft&p=23739470#post23739470). Feedback great.

Cosi

2019-03-01, 09:16 PM

The other thing to consider is that anything we do will up the power level, since more options usually translates to more power. One idea is Martial Practices from 4e, gated behind a feat? Think rituals that are martial. Avoids some power creep, out of combat only, and cool and flexible.

I'm not at all concerned about power creep in this case. Tome of Battle characters get almost no utility. Giving them some makes them better, but it makes them better at something they are bad at, which is unlikely to be unbalancing.

To avoid power creep one option is to make there be a separate feat for each discipline which gives one the utility benefits of that discipline. They could have the same prereqs, say some number of ranks in the relevant skill and at least one maneuver from that discipline.

The tendency to make everything a feat is a huge problem in 3e, because people don't get nearly enough feats. I think the appropriate comparison point is something like the Incarnate or the Wizard where the utility is just something you can do for free if you want, and all it costs is temporarily not getting to use those resources for combat power.

That would fulfill what Cosi says, about the default being an adept of one discipline, but then with the option to branch out.

I wouldn't quite say default. I think it needs to be supported, and Tome of Battle does a bad job of doing it (there is no discipline that has enough maneuvers for a 1st level Swordsage to know only that discipline). I think there are a couple of characters that need to be viable:

1. Discipline specialist. If you tell people that there is a Shadow Hand fighting style for them to do, there are going to be some people who want to be Shadow Hand masters that fight purely with Shadow Hand. That's a reasonable desire, and the fluff of Tome of Battle suggests that pre-Reshar most people operated this way. Obstacle: there are not enough maneuvers to do this.
2. Generalist. Just as there will be people who want to go all-in on Shadow Hand or Tiger Claw or whatever, there will also be people who want to learn all the kinds of maneuvers they can. Obstacle: maneuver pre-requisites mean this requires a lot of planning.
3. Pre-Tome of Battle fighting styles. I mean "pre-Tome of Battle" in a mechanical sense here. People want to be able to TWF, or shoot bows, or ride horses and still use maneuvers. Obstacle: maneuvers work much better with two-handed or sword-and-board fighting than most other styles.

You want to support all three of those (and probably some others). That means you need to write a bunch of new maneuvers (like two or three times as many), reduce or eliminate maneuver pre-reqs (I favor eliminate, but I think reducing and homogenizing to "one other for 4th, two others for 7th" is passable), and you need to go back and make maneuvers work for people with bows or twin daggers.

Or they could just be utility maneuvers. I don't actually think any but a couple of the things we've mentioned would be overpowered as at-wills.

Certainly some of them could be, and I think in many cases they should be. But for pure utility things, there are advantages to removing the tradeoff between combat power and utility, even for things that are fine at-will. If you let people trade their utility power for even better stabbing, some people will do that, and I don't really think that's a good outcome.

I know Eldan mentioned this earlier up, but it seems like most of them could be stances, too. A Shadow Hand stance that lets you travel as a wraith through the plane of shadow, crossing great distances in the mortal world, Diamond Mind meditation stance that gives you benefits if you spend one hour in it, the earth-shaping Stone Dragon stance Eldan mentioned and so on.

People get like four stances. If you do this, that number needs to go up a lot. Though, to be fair, it needs to go up some anyway.

DracoDei

2019-03-04, 03:42 PM

I had many posts selected to reply to, but my tablet lost the selections before I could transfer them to my laptop which is much easier to type on. Will redo later. Fortunately I hadn't actually typed any of my replies.

What is your take on adding homebrew maneuvers to ToB disciplines? What I have is very niche, but if we are granting more maneuvers known/readied (which is it BTW?) then they would become more viable. Plus, of course, even niche stuff can be good for Martial Scripts. Specifically I have an Anti-Swallow Whole (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140299) stance and maneuver for Tiger Claw*, and intend on using this project to motivate myself to actually write a Stone Dragon one**. I technically also have some Devoted Spirit stuff, but I DO NOT recommend it since it requires adding in the Funky/Square axis of alignment, which wasn't my invention to begin with.
*It now occurs to me that the maneuver could MAYBE be argued to be better moved to Iron Heart or MAYBE Stone Dragon since it involves a fairly precise attack based on very subtle visual cues and/or knowledge of anatomy. Of course, since it involves cutting toward the stomach (from the outside, to help a comrade escape) that has vague connotations of "rip their guts out" which is a Tiger Claw 'feel'.
**The idea I have is pretty good I think, but both the numbers and the name I may need some suggestions for.

Also, you don't have a link in creatures for my Tittering Brick Squirrel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?140707-(3-5)-(ToB)-A-Vexing-Foe-(Creature)-(PEACH)). Is this intentional?

Lastly IIRC your Falling Star link under Disciplines actually goes to the "Refactoring ToB Archery" thread and thus should be three different links. Unless you wanted to mash them back together into a single discipline which I don't think would be wise.

JoshuaZ

2019-03-04, 07:42 PM

People get like four stances. If you do this, that number needs to go up a lot. Though, to be fair, it needs to go up some anyway.

Yeah, the number of stances one gets is *tiny*.

Elves

2019-03-04, 09:53 PM

What is your take on adding homebrew maneuvers to ToB disciplines? What I have is very niche, but if we are granting more maneuvers known/readied (which is it BTW?) then they would become more viable.

Adding new maneuvers to the core 9 is a definite yes.

Everyone is probably getting more maneuvers known. Swordsage would be the only one to get more readied, and that's only if we don't switch to Cosi's suggestion of letting them refresh by swapping stances, which IMO is a possibility since one-stance-itis is a thing and if there's a class that would refresh via swift it would be swordsage. Opinions?
These changes to base classes would be grouped under Errata.

*It now occurs to me that the maneuver could MAYBE be argued to be better moved to Iron Heart...Of course, since it involves cutting toward the stomach (from the outside, to help a comrade escape) that has vague connotations of "rip their guts out" which is a Tiger Claw 'feel'.
If you do want to move it, it would fit Hero's Edge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?169940-We-reject-physics-in-the-name-of-AWESOME!-(ToB-Discipline-repost-3-5-WIP)), since that discipline is all about crazy trope stunts against giant monsters.

**The idea I have is pretty good I think, but both the numbers and the name I may need some suggestions for.
The name is great imo. I would remove the acid resistance.

Also, you don't have a link in creatures for my Tittering Brick Squirrel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?140707-(3-5)-(ToB)-A-Vexing-Foe-(Creature)-(PEACH)). Is this intentional?
Added.

Lastly IIRC your Falling Star link under Disciplines actually goes to the "Refactoring ToB Archery" thread and thus should be three different links. Unless you wanted to mash them back together into a single discipline which I don't think would be wise.
Yes, may as well use those three (though renaming Falcon's Eye to Falling Star, since that's such a great name for an archery discipline, and to avoid double bird reference). Changed.

------

Utilities

As people have pointed out, utility stances are a bad idea, and I agree with Cosi that feats are too much of a tax. So that leaves Eldan's idea of discipline benefits, and/or utility maneuvers.

Eldan's idea is cool. What if these were skill tricks? Feats and stances are too scarce, but people have skill points to spend.

Whether or not we do that, should there be utility maneuvers and also discipline benefits, or is having both unnecessary?

DracoDei

2019-03-05, 01:37 AM

Will probably respond to more of this post later. For now I'll just hit the easy stuff.an

If you do want to move it, it would fit Hero's Edge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?169940-We-reject-physics-in-the-name-of-AWESOME!-(ToB-Discipline-repost-3-5-WIP)), since that discipline is all about crazy trope stunts against giant monsters.

Don't want to move it personally, just aware that there is an outside chance it would be a good idea. Moving both to Heroes Edge (or even duplicating them? that happens in ToB itself...) would be an option.

The name is great imo. I would remove the acid resistance.

Err... You misunderstood me on one point and I would strongly disagree on another.

The names for the Tigerclaw stance and maneuver are fine. It is a STONE DRAGON maneuver that I haven't written yet that I am worried about finding a good name...

The best I can get so far is "Faultlines and Avalanches Build Over Time". Basic idea is: Stand in one spot for as long as you like charging it up. Make one attack (even a charge) on the turn you end it, with bonuses based on how long you charged. Good for ambushes... Maybe too good and you.start producing harmless tremors after a certain stage, which can serve as a warning to those in the know.

As for the acid resistance on Stance of the Puffferfish, it makes sense to be resistant to a damage type that is not ubiquitous in general (unlike bludgeoning) but IS present in most swallow whole attacks, especially if you are doing it intentionally. Also it makes it slightly less niche (and remember one doesn't get many stance picks even if we beef it up a bit) while remaining much smaller numbers than the Desert Wind stance that gives you Fire Resistance based on Tumble ranks.

Eldan

2019-03-05, 02:25 AM

Eldan

2019-03-05, 02:29 AM

I distinctly remember that I once had a thread about giving monsters maneuvers, but I can't find it now. I might go back to that. Basically, just homebrew versions of monsters with maneuvers to make them cooler. (I still want a Tiger Claw/Infinite Torment/Army of One Marilith.

Elves

2019-03-07, 12:43 AM

Update on the Legacy Weapons. The ones I've finished are bolded. LMK if you have ideas.

The likely weapon properties of the unfinished ones are in ( )s.

Reshar was a man of many marketing tricks, and one of his most influential has been the idea of a discipline weapon. Like the ideas of many great marketers, he didn’t invent it: the Wind Dervishes have long idealized the scimitar Desert Wind as the beautiful paragon of weapons, so much that the discipline may have been named in its honor — or more likely, Rashid ben Daoud may have named it after the style he practiced. And Kamate’s importance to the goblin people hardly needs explaining.

But it was Reshar who brought the idea to its crest. And it was more than just a gimmick: the Nine Swords themselves were changed by the force of Reshar’s purpose, intertwined with the disciplines he saw they embodied. That’s why they grant some of their discipline’s powers to those who wield them.

By definition, a legacy weapon changes with what it goes through. So being used as the embodiment of a discipline by a master of that discipline will bend such a weapon’s nature to be what they use it as. So long, that is — and here’s the catch — as the nature of its legacy truly does embody that discipline to start with.

Army of One - Animated shield.
Black Rain - Gun
Bloodstained Gutter - Shiv
Broken Blade - Swordbane, a swordbreaker with the rusting property but can also rust magic weapons. It destroyed the Sublime Tapestry sword.
Chthonic Serpent - whip or spiked chain (viper)
Coin’s Edge - The Original Luckblade?
Cosmic Imperator - The Ego Scepter
Dancing Leaf - Rapier or elven courtblade? (parrying, defending)
Falling Anvil - Frying Pan of Doom, Vlax’s Rubber Chicken
Falling Star - Longbow (seeking)
Fool’s Grip - universal weapon that can morph
Manticore Volley/Iron Rain or whatever - Repeating crossbow (explosive and probably splitting)
Narrow Bridge - A kusari-gama, quarterstaff, or two bladed sword - one side positive, one negative.
Ocean Soul - Coral’s Bite, the trident from Weapons of Legacy, updated like Desert Wind was.
Penitent Martyr - Remorse, flail
Phoenix Feather - Magic elven longbow (force and probably splitting)
Relentless Dusk - Camonglane, Mace of Oblivion
Scarlet Bravura - Blood Promise and Nematryon, the Leader’s Dare
Sublime Tapestry - The Hilt (the blade was destroyed by Swordbane). (Just looked, what a great coincidence: “Alone, it is an incomplete style, like a sword hilt without the blade.” )
Twin Spirit - Heartfallen, valorous lance
Venerable Battlefield - The Godsword, fullblade
Witch Razor - greatsword because that’s what dusk- and hex- blades use. (curse-spewing)

[Antimagic discipline] - (magebane impedance)
Mental Grip - (psychokinetic)
Sleeping Goddess - (psychic)

—Planar Disciplines—
The weapons of the planar disciplines weren’t made by normal means, but rather were pulled out of the essence of their plane by powerful outsiders in ages past.

Infinite Torment - “Flamescourge" or something dramatic like that (anarchic, unholy)
Golden Saint - aurorum greatsword (holy, heap on all the BOED ones).
Kaleidoscopic Dream - Meteor hammer? Idk
Ninefold Damnation - cornugon spiked chain or barbezu glaive (axiomatic, unholy, flaming)
Far Realm - kaorti resin weird weapon (illithidwrought)
Stygian Nightmare - Scythe (stygian)
Quicksilver Aegis - The Quicksilver Aegis, a mercury breastplate that turns you into a being of liquid mercury, providing DR etc, and the Axiom Axe.

Eldan

2019-03-07, 05:28 AM

For the psychic disciplines, I'd suggest intelligent weapons.

Planar Disciplines: Maybe look at what the highest level generic exemplars of those disciplines use? A balor's flaming whip for Infinite Torment. Golden Saint is actually a discipline that annoys me, because it covers all three celestial exemplar races, different as they are and the totally unrelated angels. Anyway, solars use dancing greatswords. Sadly, the only high level slaad in third edition is the Death Slaad, who isn't even a proper slaad and doesn't use weapons. Weirdly enough, and never noticed this, pit fiends don't use weapons either (but balors do? Shouldn't devils be more civilized than demons?).

For the Far realm (that discipline needs another name), how about a kaorti resin weapon? They are frightfully powerful, but they fit. Alternatively, I'd suggest a shifting spear that counts as a tentacle for proficiencies. Just because shifting your weapon length is nicely fitting.

Stygian nightmare... should that even be a planar discipline? IT seems to take the place of a Yugoloth Discipline, which could be fascinating. I might write one.

PairO'Dice Lost

2019-03-07, 06:27 AM

Planar Disciplines: Maybe look at what the highest level generic exemplars of those disciplines use? A balor's flaming whip for Infinite Torment.

Either a flaming whip or a flame-/lightning-looking longsword would work for Infinite Torment. For Ninefold Damnation, a spiked chain (for kytons) or a glaive (for barbazu) would probably work better than a pitchfork since D&D devils don't have the "human with red skin, horns, tail, and pitchfork" motif going on.

Weirdly enough, and never noticed this, pit fiends don't use weapons either (but balors do? Shouldn't devils be more civilized than demons?).

It's not a matter of civilized vs. uncivilized, but rather of preferred fighting styles. Pit fiends don't use weapons because, while they can fall back to natural weapons like every powerful outsider, they're primarily casters and commanders. Balors are the reverse: they use a whip and sword because, while they can rely on their magic to attack from range, they like to slaughter their victims up close and personal, and using a whip that can pull foes closer plus a sword that can take enemies' heads clean off is a very effective way to do that.

Eldan

2019-03-07, 06:48 AM

Mm. Fair, I can accept that. That said, if there ever was a pit fiend who liked getting up close, I'd outfit them with some plate armour.

Elves

2019-03-07, 10:05 AM

Golden Saint is actually a discipline that annoys me, because it covers all three celestial exemplar races,

Stygian nightmare... should that even be a planar discipline?

As long as they're different, I think it's good if it's not strictly 1 discipline per plane because then it's just filling in a spreadsheet. D&D's style is formulaic enough as is.

Stygian Nightmare should technically be "Hadean/Carcerian Nightmare" but that sounds worse.

I think Quicksilver Aegis will be a mercury breastplate that turns you to a protean being of liquid mercury because why not. Stygian has to be a scythe I guess. So someone else has to get an axe. Actually, might just give Quicksilver an Axiom Axe since some others have doubles too.

I like cornugon spiked chain for Hell since it represents torturous imprisonment.

Eldan

2019-03-07, 10:17 AM

Elves

2019-03-07, 11:22 AM

Yeah, that would be great. I can do quicksilver, unless Dice wants to do the ones for his disciplines the rest are up for dibs.

Re: Celestial disciplines, it's true, and I originally wanted to use an altered Silver Crane but it got used by Paizo.

Eldan

2019-03-07, 11:29 AM

That said, I just imagined what an Eladrin discipline would look like, and it's basically Desert Wind with a few holy effects. So, maybe not.

I'll make Ninefold Damnation weapon for now, if that's alright. Though I'll have to re-read how Legacy Weapons work first, I remember not entirely getting it last time.

Elves

2019-03-07, 11:38 AM

Here's the format btw:

Legacy Weapon

[Description]

Omen:

History

(DC 15)

(DC 20; A)

(DC 25; B)

(DC 31; C)

Legacy Rituals

The following three rituals are required to unlock all the abilities of X.

A: Cost: 1500gp. Feat Granted: Least Legacy ( ).

B: Cost: 13,000gp. Feat Granted: Lesser Legacy ( ).

C: Cost: 39,000gp. Feat Granted: Greater Legacy ( ).

Wielder Requirements

Legacy Item Abilities

LevelAbilities
5--
6--
7--
8--
9--
10--
11--
12--
13--
14--
15--
16--
17--
18--
19--
20--

[descriptions]

No wielder penalties for these weapons, no need to draw the abilities exclusively from WoL's menus, and to be frank, only a loose need to align with its points metric which I'm sick of at this point. IMO the assumption should be that these weapons require DM approval anyway.

Eldan

2019-03-07, 11:41 AM

Okay, perhaps I'm stupid, but I'm reading the book now... how do you tell which abilities on a legacy item are least/lesser/greater? Just by the level they are granted at? The feats just say "You get the Least/Lesser/Greater" abilities, the tables just say which level you get the abilities at, and the explicatory chapters don't tell you which abilities are which at all.

Elves

2019-03-07, 11:51 AM

Just granted level. Least 5-10, Lesser 11-16 and Greater 17-20.

Honestly it should be least/lesser/moderate/major in 5 level brackets but eh.

Eldan

2019-03-07, 02:25 PM

Belay that. I'm not having any good ideas for Hell, but I'm writing a pretty dang awesome Far Realms weapon right now.

PairO'Dice Lost

2019-03-07, 04:27 PM

No, I mean, what annoys me is that there's several disciplines for fiends, but only one discipline for all celestials. So out of the nine exemplar races, you get one discipline each for the Slaad, Modrons, Baatezu and Tanar'ri, sort of one for the Yugoloths and one to share for the Archons, Eladrin and Guardinals, plus the Angels, who don't have a place on a list of planar anything, anyway.[...]It fits the general 3.5 thing wizards did, where all the books are about fiends and the celestials get nothing.

It's more of an ongoing Great Wheel thing than a 3e thing, really. The devils, daemons, and demons (and the poor neglected demodands) all get their own stuff because they're all fighting with each other all the time, whereas celestials tend to be lumped together because they're one big happy family. Or that's the justification, anyway, but really the archons and eladrin should disagree at least as much as the devils and demons, just not quite so violently and unreasonably.

(And nothing for the Rilmani, but no one cares about the Rilmani anyway, they are so dull.)

They can't be dull, they're shiny. :smallwink: And they're plenty cool, they just got short shrift in 3e materials.

Yeah, that would be great. I can do quicksilver, unless Dice wants to do the ones for his disciplines the rest are up for dibs.

I'll make Ninefold Damnation weapon for now, if that's alright
[...]
Belay that. I'm not having any good ideas for Hell, but I'm writing a pretty dang awesome Far Realms weapon right now.

I'll do the ones for mine, then. Though I don't know how soon I'll be able to get around to them.

Eldan

2019-03-08, 05:57 AM

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?582879-The-World-Wound-(Legacy-Weapon)

There we go. That roughly qualifies as a weapon. I feel it may be horribly overpowered, though I held myself back from giving it the strongest effect I thought of yesterday. (Untethered in Time: at 17th level, the World Wound will not let such a powerful host die easily. Once per week, when you would die, the World Wound instead casts the psionic power Time Regression on you as an immediate action.)

Perhaps as an epic legacy.

Elves

2019-03-08, 07:19 PM

Very cool. Are you supposed to be able to plane shift out of Encapsulate? Would seem balanced since casters are the ones most likely to not have pierce/slash attacks, but I don't know if that was intended.

I'll put up a thread for all the legacy weapons when I have time to put it together.

Eldan

2019-03-09, 11:02 AM

I honestly have no idea, it's straight copied from a spell, with just a few changes in how much damage it deals and a new school. (Bite of the King). Probably, yeah.

I'll write another one when I have time. Which ones are still free?

Elves

2019-03-09, 04:21 PM

Here's a cheat sheet for the Weapons of Legacy abilities of note. These are just guidelines!

The system is that each weapon gets 1 point per level, and abilities can cost from 1 to 3 points.

For all of them:
Enhancement value
+1 resistance saves, max 5 (free up cloak slot)

Least (1 level)
CL/IL 5 SLAs
Intelligent legacy minor - 13/13/10, extra ego
Metamagic/Metapsionic Lesser - 3/day free +1mm on slots up to 3rd
Creature compass - ignore DR on one creature type, detect them within 60ft

Least (2 levels)
CL/IL 7 SLAs
Intelligent Legacy - 16/16/10, extra ego, 60ft darkvis
Speed+10ft (enhance)

Least (3 levels)
(enhance armor +2 if currently +2 or less)
[no weapon enhance]
CL/IL 10 SLAs
Swift action 1st level SLA (restrictions)
Empower - 3/day free empower on slots up to 3rd

Lesser (1 level)
CL/IL 10 SLAs
Intelligent Legacy Major - 18/18/10, extra ego, telepathy, language, blindsense
Metamagic/Metapsi - 3/day free +1 mm on slots up to 6th
Cunning - never flatfooted
At-will swift action 1st level SLA

Lesser (2 levels)
(enhance armor +3 if +2 or less; +2 if +4 or less)
(enhance weapon +2 if +1)
CL/IL 11 SLAs
At-will 2nd level SLA
Maximize Lesser - 3/day free maximize on slots up to 3rd
Skill +10 competence

Lesser (3 levels)
(enhance armor +4 if +1, +3 if +3, +2 if +6)
(enhance weapon +2 if +3)
CL/IL 13 SLAs
Swift action 3rd level SLA (restrictions) Evasion
As ring of xray vision

Greater (1 level)
(enhance armor +5 if +2, +4 if +3, +3 if +5, +2 otherwise)
(enhance weapon +3 if 2, +2 if +5)
CL/IL 15 SLAs
+6 ability enhancement
Empower - 3/day free empower on slots up to 6th
Mindarmor - +3 will vs mindaffecting,compulsion
Quicken - 3/day free quicken on slots up to 3rd
Skill +15 competence Complete Weapon: +1 weapon enhance, must have taken the Greater (1) enhance option.

Greater (2 levels)
(enhance armor +5 if +4, +4 otherwise)
(enhance weapons +5 if +1, +4 if +2, +3 if +5, +2 if +8)
CL 17 SLAs but the spells seem to cap at 7th
1/day swift 6th SLA
Complete Weapon: +2 weapon enhance, must have taken the Greater (2) enhance option.

Greater (3 levels)
(enhance weapon +6 if +1, +5 if +3, +4 if +5, +3 if +7, +2 if 8th)
CL 20th SLAs, including 9ths
Swift action 5th level SLA
3/day free quicken on 6ths
Complete Weapon: +3 weapon enhance, must have taken the Greater(1) enhance option.

Omoikane13

2019-03-09, 05:43 PM

I'm midway into trying my hand at the TOB/Soulknife PrC, is there anything that's intrinsic to it? I currently have the key bits of only needing one level of Soulknife, and allowing shaping of the mind blade into the Nine Swords.
I was thinking of giving each shape a list of bonuses of something, like getting a few of the manoeuvres from that school or getting a thematic bonus, and having each level let you unlock more bonuses, so you can either get variety or specialise. As for capstone, I was thinking something to do with manifesting all the Nine Swords at once, somehow.

Eldan

2019-03-09, 06:41 PM

I'm not sure Bloodstained Gutter should even have a legacy weapon. It's a very informal discipline with no proper teaching.

I think I'll try Dancing Leaf, make it more fey than just elegant elven.

Elves

2019-03-09, 08:56 PM

I'm midway into trying my hand at the TOB/Soulknife PrC, is there anything that's intrinsic to it? I currently have the key bits of only needing one level of Soulknife, and allowing shaping of the mind blade into the Nine Swords.

The default entry would be swordsage4/soulknife 1. Full BAB presumably.

Fluff-wise, I know some people envision soulknife as having a literal glowing psi-sword and others imagine little glowing handblades. The first one is what I was assuming here.

I was thinking of giving each shape a list of bonuses of something, like getting a few of the manoeuvres from that school or getting a thematic bonus, and having each level let you unlock more bonuses, so you can either get variety or specialise.

If it's a 10 level PrC then the obvious temptation is to make it unlock 1 sword per level and then get a big capstone at the end.

If the swords have synergy with their disc's maneuvers, then the problem is that multi-users get punished, disincentivizing the variety that's the class's whole point. So I'm hesitant about specialization benefits.

If the swords do have synergy bonuses, further specialization mechanisms are definitely not needed.

If the swords grant maneuvers, the order you choose them in (if 1 per level) might be enough of an element of choice.

As for capstone, I was thinking something to do with manifesting all the Nine Swords at once, somehow.

An element of floating swords minionmancer could be cool, yeah.

That said, if it works out to a choice between getting granted maneuvers from one discipline or having that sword be your minion, then FYI that's the same thing the animist class does.

DracoDei

2019-03-11, 10:22 PM

Having a hard time mentally getting myself to reply to things. Going to do what I can now.

Probably most importantly, I have now posted the first draft of the first maneuver (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?582822-(ToB)-(Maneuver)-Faultline-Maneuver(s)-for-Stone-Dragon-(P-E-A-C-H-)&p=23759163#post23759163) in my intended chain of Stone Dragon maneuvers. I want some P.E.A.C.H. to get the major bugs worked out before I proceed further with it.

Next, I have always found the idea that almost all PrCs end up being 10, 5, or sometimes 3 levels to be a sign of too limited thinking. Not that "One sword a level, plus a capstone" is a bad idea! Just that if some idea works out better, don't be afraid of it just because it gives a weird number of levels.

Thirdly, the idea of a Swordsage being able to single-discipline is nice in theory, but it would require 7 maneuvers at 1st level in the most obvious way of doing it. I don't think that that is going to be happening for the 9, much less those plus our homebrew disciplines. Maybe some way of taking an maneuver twice, even if only 1st level ones, and even if only to say that you can up to two copies of it that can be expended and recovered separately.

Lastly, Vlax's Rubber Chicken is not happening I don't think. The guy who invented it doesn't like me any more and he might take it amiss if I used it. The Frying Pan of Doom is from a book I read, and if that is okay, then fine. It's main power is turning those struck by it into eggs... well, that and the fact that to any but its bonded (or, in the story, Destined) wielder, it is always burning hot, even the handle.

If neither of these work, I can come up with something else (probably just renaming the rubber chicken since its powers were never really specified, either by the creator or myself).

Elves

2019-03-12, 01:33 AM

I liked the frying pan story as a kid so I'm onboard with that. A non-Vlax rubber chicken would be thematic but there's no need for more than 1 weapon so no pressure. Whether one or both, it would be great if you could do this, as I'm not sure I could very well.

These are the weapons I'm doing next:

One Man Stand (animated shield)
Jude's Jurisprudence (revolver) and Outlaw's Equalizer (shotgun)
Venomchain (spiked chain)
The Sword of Love (merciful aurorum greatsword for Golden Saint)

There should be a katana. I'm thinking Hero's Edge could be a tank-slicing meme katana since it's in the lighthearted category.

Overall, not too far from being done with the legacy weps and that's a significant step. The only other places that actually require new crunch are the new class, the utilities, and the shield tank discipline. Beyond that it's just fluff and some conversion/rejiggering.

-----------

Re single swordsage, branching out at level 1, for a single disc'er, would represent initial experiments before settling on a style.

DracoDei

2019-03-12, 12:25 PM

I can come up with a weapon probably, but I don't have the book and don't understand the cheat-sheet. This it may require extensive corrections after I lay out the basic concepts. In deference to Wrede's copyright (Partially because I believe we are omitting a discipline of two due to such concerns?) I'm probably going to randomize or make a progression of the things that it turns the opponent into. Lower levels might be a homage to.the Eggplant mage in the Kid Icarus games, scaling into the Tempura Mage from the Uprising.

Are you still considering my Faultline maneuver or did you draw a total blank? Do Lanth Sor's suggestions for my maneuver sound like a good direction to go for balance? Would compiling some information on MM I monsters of low CR for average and maybe min/max up be good to give people (including myself) a reference point?

Elves

2019-03-12, 01:08 PM

Did you see my comment in the Faultline thread? Basically I'd recommend adding an in-combat function as well, accessible after charging for 1 round (a charge-up attack that takes more than 1 FRA is not viable in combat). It would also be interesting to have a stance that gave a version of the charge up benefit but only cost move actions, modeled after Blood In The Water.

Legacy weapon process:

Before level 5, they're just +1 weapons.

Starting at 5, the weapon gets 1 point each level that it can spend on abilities. Abilities can cost 1, 2, or 3 points -- if you choose a 2-pointer, then there's a dead level, if you choose a 3 then there are two dead levels.

There are three tiers that each have their own menu of abilities. Least is 5 to 10, Lesser is 11 to 16, Greater 17 to 20.

You can't choose the exact same ability twice but you can choose different SLAs.

In the book they cap the enhance bonus at +3 for Least and +6 I think for Lesser, but the book literally contradicts itself on this point so who knows.

But again this is just a starting point. We're treating these more like artifacts that happen to scale.

Would compiling some information on MM I monsters of low CR for average and maybe min/max up be good to give people (including myself) a reference point?

IMO it should be fine to just compare them to existing maneuvers. If you want to find this info I'm sure it would be useful but I don't think it's necessary.

DracoDei

2019-03-12, 03:02 PM

Did you see my comment in the Faultline thread?

I saw it shortly after you posted it, but I think I posted my prior post in this thread first.

Basically I'd recommend adding an in-combat function as well, accessible after charging for 1 round (a charge-up attack that takes more than 1 FRA is not viable in combat).

The "in-combat" vs "out-of-combat" distinction becomes, at best, very muddy for the most important dynamic I wanted this (series of) maneuver(s) to add to the game. I was thinking of carefully crafted ambushes, and such-like. Possibly breaking enemy ambushes and entrenchments? Anyway, the idea is that it would be charged up before initiative is rolled, but released either in a surprise round (partial charge? AoO, usually with Combat Reflexes?), or the first full round of combat. I feel like I should have stated this more explicitly, since the question of how hard those are to set up for which amount of start-up time is something I think is a brain-bending question that never-the-less needs answering.

If it really needs something to allow it to be useful to START initiating in combat, in addition to the more tactics-rewarding uses I had in mind originally, then I suppose I could have it start out with,say, +4 damage and +2 to-hit (but -1 on crit. confirmation) or something like that.

It would also be interesting to have a stance that gave a version of the charge up benefit but only cost move actions, modeled after Blood In The Water.

IF I understand what you are saying this... could be good, although my gut reaction is negative (I try to allow logical arguments presented to me to over-rule my gut).

While I DON'T think this is what you were saying (tell me if this is wrong), when I was working on this prior to initially posting it I had actually considered making this maneuver as a Stance or Boost, to change what it could be combined with. It might still be acquired as a maneuver even if it combos as a Stance, since it is too niche to want to spend a Stance pick on.
So you get the bonus on more than one attack without it resetting after each attack, only at the end of a round you move too far (as usual for Stone Dragon stances, but with the same grace period the Strike gives?) or make a full-attack?
Or do you recommend the bonus reset once used, but you don't HAVE to use it when attacking?

Legacy weapon process:

<SNIP>
But again this is just a starting point. We're treating these more like artifacts that happen to scale.
This will probably help, especially the reminder that these are fairly loose suggestions. I had forgotten that part.

IMO it should be fine to just compare them to existing maneuvers.

Hard to do when the degree of set-up required to reap the full reward is so much higher in my original vision (which I am not abandoning at this time).

If you want to find this info I'm sure it would be useful but I don't think it's necessary.
Well, I've done it for the MM I CR 1's. I should probably link that Googlesheet to the maneuver thread when I am not on my tablet...

EDIT: To be clear, I will probably be copying and modifying this response as well as adding the response I sent to Lanth For on Discord to the thread for this maneuver (in future probably a series of maneuvers).

Sgt. Cookie

2019-03-12, 09:21 PM

Hey, so I don't know if this is something you'd be interested in, but a few years ago I posted something I thought of called Martial Domains (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?252182-My-god-granteth-me-not-magical-might-but-martial-prowess-3-5-Domains-PEACH-WIP) which, in effect, allowed Clerics to get in on the maneuver action.

Only two martial domains ever came of it, one of those supplied by Supercival, but I figure it's worth bringing up just in case.

I'm not married to the mechanics so whatever needs changing can be changed.

EDIT: As a sort of proof-of-concept I've changed the Skirmish domain to use some maneuvers from various "Accepted" disciplines.

Skirmish Domain

Granted ability: You gain 1d6 Skirmish dice for every four Cleric levels you possess. Unlike a scout, a Cleric with this domain may use Skirmish dice granted by this domain regardless of armour or load.

Maneuvers:

1st: Wind Stride: Boost, gain +10ft movement speed (Desert Wind)
2nd: Emerald Razor: Strike, turn melee attack into melee touch attack (Diamond Mind)
3rd: Rose's Thorn Riposte Counter, make a counterattack against a foe who attacks you in melee (Dancing Leaf)
4th: Bounding Assault Strike, Double move and attack (Diamond Mind).
5th: Victorious Army's Advance Strike, Make a full attack and take a 5ft step after each attack (Army of one)
6th: Desert Tempest Strike, attack foes as you move past them (Desert wind)
7th: Brothers in Blood Boost, Successful attack allows ally to move up to half speed and attack. (Scarlet Baruvia)
8th: Adamantite Hurricane Strike, two attacks against each adjacent foe +4 bonus on each attack (Iron heart)
9th: Time stands still Strike, take full attack action twice. (Diamond mind)

Sereg

2019-03-13, 06:38 AM

I do like the idea of Martial Domains, though I think they may fit better as options for Paladins, Favoured Souls and Crusaders. Maybe even Monks.

Also, maybe give examples of god's associated with each martial domain.

Sgt. Cookie

2019-03-13, 09:40 AM

To be fair, we'd need more martial domains before we could do that :smalltongue:.

That said, in the original incarnation, any deity with War, Battle, Combat, Slaughter, Strength, etc in its portfolio grant Martial Domains as a general rule.

So, gods like Kord, Grummish, St. Cuthbert, Pelor, Heironeous, Hextor, and so on.

Some martial Domains, like the Vanguard domain, might only be offered by gods with Protection in their portfolio, such as Moradin.

DracoDei

2019-03-13, 12:05 PM

Looking at my life realistically, I may not be able to critique other's ideas and work to the extent I had initially hoped when I joined this thread. I'll still probably be doing the mechanics for my legacy weapons (maybe not the description of the challenges, nor its history), moving Falling Anvil into a new thread and tweaking it, and working on the Faultline series of maneuvers.

That having been said I am not going to pass up a chance to critique if I am posting and happen to have something I can think of to say.

Regarding Maritial Domains:
This could just be me, and how I was trying to read quickly, but a lot of the details get lost in the way it is presented. What I would suggest is to create two separate sets of rules, one for Adepts, and one for clerics. The Domains descriptions themselves can remain as they are, with the possible exception of a parathetical reminder in each Granted Power section "(Cleric Only)". The repetitiveness between the two versions of the main text of the rules would be worth it to avoid confusion regarding which exceptions apply to which way of taking them.

You also need to correct the Post #1 description of how the knowledge domain works for martial maneuvers, since there it sounds like you permanently lose access to the maneuvers if you use one of the spells. I also note that using the maneuver doesn't cut access to the spell, so if you save your casting for the end of the day (which a lot of the spells in that domain might be useful in?) then it MIGHT be considered cheesy.

Saying the maneuvers are "Always Readied" creates confusion in that it seems they can still be expended. I think the word you want is "Prepared".

I believe that clerics are supposed to be able to use the maneuvers 1/day? If so, saying that, rather than just saying they don't get a martial-adept-class type recovery method would probably be good.

Also, if I am reading the Martial Domains right, they might be fine for a cleric, but a martial initiator simply has to take a single feat to get one to nine maneuvers known. Obviously this knocks Martial Study into a cocked hat, with the POSSIBLE exception of Crusaders who can be argued to prefer fewer maneuvers readied... actually adding 9 maneuvers readied, with no increase in maneuvers initially granted is probably a nerf.

So are we sure we want that power-level bump?

Regardless of the answer to the previous question, I would give Crusaders the ability to pick and choose which maneuvers they prepare whenever they prepare maneuvers, even if they never count against the number known or readied. So at level 17+ they COULD Ready all 9 if they are willing to accept the added chance of not getting the maneuver they need, even several rounds into a combat.

Also, my brain apparently decided to take the "Why would a cloistered cleric take a martial domain?" thing as a challenge.

I am in a BIG hurry to leave for a doctor's appointment and am thus breaking some rules without explicitly discussing the pros and cons of doing so. Might be some typoes too.

Power level probably means this should ONLY be available to cloistered clerics.

Fearless Observer Domain

Domain Power: Spot and Listen always count as class skills.

1- Moment of Perfect Mind [DM]
2- Action Before Thought [DM]
3- Mind Over Body [DM] OR Zephyr Dance [DW] [Pick one on gaining access to these two.]
4- [Whichever of the preceding two you didn't pick before]
5- Black Pearl of Doubt (STANCE) [DM] OR Hearing the Air (STANCE) [DM]
6- Moment of Alacrity [DM] OR Iron Heart Endurance [IH]
7- Quicksilver Motion [DM] OR Shadow Blink [SH]
8- Immortal Fortitude (STANCE) [DS] OR Diamond Defense [DM]
9- ?????????????? (Maybe Dancing Leaf's 9th level Counter? Both of the two you didn't pick at 6th and 7th levels? Add Wisdom to AC as a deflection or sacred/profane bonus?)

Alternatively, the domain bonus could be Alertness, or perhaps granting a defensive 1st level stance, such as Stance of Clarity (DM). Actually, Hunter's Sense (TC) could be an interesting option since it gives another source of information!

Sgt. Cookie

2019-03-13, 12:47 PM

Elves

2019-03-13, 01:14 PM

I saw it shortly after you posted it, but I think I posted my prior post in this thread first.

The "in-combat" vs "out-of-combat" distinction becomes, at best, very muddy for the most important dynamic I wanted this (series of) maneuver(s) to add to the game. I was thinking of carefully crafted ambushes, and such-like. Possibly breaking enemy ambushes and entrenchments? Anyway, the idea is that it would be charged up before initiative is rolled, but released either in a surprise round (partial charge? AoO, usually with Combat Reflexes?), or the first full round of combat.

In that case Lanth Sor's recommendation of making you able to charge as part of the attack seems important and also thematic.

The other seeming use for this maneuver is in a situation where you're facing "waves" of opponents, eg Streets of Blood in RHOD.

I suppose I could have it start out with,say, +4 damage and +2 to-hit (but -1 on crit. confirmation) or something like that.

Still wouldn't be worth a FRA - compare steely strike which is +4 to hit.

BUT, I do think reducing the charge-up time is a good idea, for general use and especially for wave encounters.

So you get the bonus on more than one attack without it resetting after each attack, only at the end of a round you move too far (as usual for Stone Dragon stances, but with the same grace period the Strike gives?) or make a full-attack?
Or do you recommend the bonus reset once used, but you don't HAVE to use it when attacking?

For the stance, 'spend a move action to gain x (stacking) bonus on next attack'. Something for reach weapon users primarily though you can also translocate/transpose.

Hey, so I don't know if this is something you'd be interested in, but a few years ago I posted something I thought of called Martial Domains (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?252182-My-god-granteth-me-not-magical-might-but-martial-prowess-3-5-Domains-PEACH-WIP) which, in effect, allowed Clerics to get in on the maneuver action.

That's certainly the obvious choice for a TOB cleric ACF. At the same time I'm not especially eager to cut clerics in on the martial pie since they already have so much. Kind of sad if a clericzilla can now out-martial the martials.

DracoDei

2019-03-14, 05:53 PM

This was made a loooooong time ago so the mechanics are very wonky. The martial domain feat was just a bad idea that was never really corrected. Although it was intended for the feat to add to maneuvers known rather than readied. But, again, a bad idea that's better off ignored.
Ah, I see!

The mechanics, of course, can easily be changed, but the general idea was a Cleric could swap out a spell domain for a martial domain and have them function once-per-encounter like the martial study feat. We can, of course, just abandon the cleric aspect entirely use the concept for something else entirely.
Once-per-encounter sounds good... unless we want to make it mandatory as a nerf to clerics. Or maybe they never get domain slots, only granted powers, regardless of which choice they make? Or maybe they pick two domain powers, domain slots and two sets of domain spells, OR two martial domains?

Lastly, as a general rule, the martial domains don't give stances (Except as domain abilitied. I don't remember why I decided that, but I did.
Probably because stances are more valuable than maneuvers! However, note that my idea included getting two 3rd level maneuvers, rather than a 3rd and a 4th BEFORE the first Stances could be acquired (except if we decided to make Hunter's Sense the Domain power which is "allowed" anyway). In addition, the fact that it is ONLY available to cloistered clerics who make the substitution, and how said substitution interacts with using the Knowledge Domain spells, is a pretty big nerf I think.

Come to that we could say that if you take a Stance at a given level then you DON'T get the matching maneuver for that level for your other martial domain. In this case I really should find a maneuver to put in at each of the levels that only have stances so far, even if it is under an leveled one.

Independently of the above, nerfing their IL progression for those maneuvers to the usual 1/2, or a compromise of 3/4 could be an option?

That's certainly the obvious choice for a TOB cleric ACF. At the same time I'm not especially eager to cut clerics in on the martial pie since they already have so much. Kind of sad if a clericzilla can now out-martial the martials.
See my above notes in this post regarding how this could be turned into a nerf for clerics. As with granting other classes Martial options, it could enhances the overall "martial" feel of the setting.

Also, I have made some edits to Local Faultline Builds Pressure and copy-pasted some discussion from this thread and Discord (Direct Message with Lanth Sor) into the Faultline Maneuver(s) thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?582822-(ToB)-(Maneuver)-Faultline-Maneuver(s)-for-Stone-Dragon-(P-E-A-C-H-)) along with additional responses on some of the points, and some brand-new questions. Note that some of my old questions in a spoiler in the first post of that thread have still not received any comments.

I also added links there to my scratch pad on GoogleSheets (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_uihxLWOXh3EoWpKKphMol7dTNEmRGTiRMwTwyi2dy8/edit#gid=396393138).

Elves

2019-03-14, 06:54 PM

Randomly did a discipline: Soothed Beast (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?583376-A-Martial-Discipline-For-Pacifists-(PEACH)&p=23776852).

The concept is a "pacifist tank". Don't know if it's worth including, just an idea.

Sgt. Cookie

2019-03-14, 09:11 PM

Because I'm some sort of maniac, I'm working on two things at once right now:

The first is martial discipline called "Wyrm's Might" which is all about emulating the endurance and the raw, destructive power of dragons. Notably, there are NO energy damage based maneuvers. That's something I'm explicitly avoiding.

If you're curious, here's the current "overview list" for Wyrm's Might:

(Intimidate is it's key skill, by the by.)

1st:
Wyrmflesh: Stance - Gain a natural armour bonus that scales with Intimidate
Invoke the Dragon: Boost - Your next melee attack adds half your strength modifier as an addition to the damage.
Lashing Claw: Strike - Make an attack with a light weapon as an immediate action, but deals less damage.
Draconic Assault Stance: Stance - Deal damage as if your weapons were one size category larger.

2nd:
Brutal Lizard Strength: Strike - Make a full attack as if your strength score were 6 points higher.
Sweeping Iron Tail: Strike - Attack three squares simultaneously.
Strike of Draconic Presence: Strike - After a successful melee attack, can demoralize as a free action, adding damage dealt to the intimidate check.

3rd:
Turn Aside the Flames: Counter - Make a melee attack in place of a saving throw against energy damage or breath weapons.
Glory of the Dragon: Stance - Gain Frightful Presence and immunity to draconic Frightful Presence
Shell Crushing Might: Strike - Melee attack deals +2d6 damage can temporarily reduce target's damage reduction.

4th:
Beseech the Dragon: Boost - All melee attacks made this round add half your strength modifier as an addition to the damage.

5th:
Hulking Lizard Strength: Strike - Make a full attack as if your strength score were 12 points higher

6th:

7th:

8th:
Tyrannical Lizard Strength: Strike - Make a full attack as if your strength score were 24 points higher.

9th:
Multi-Headed Chromatic Onslaught: Strike - Make five attacks at your highest base attack bonus all with +5d6 damage.

As far as the names go, the fluff is basically that the creators were more likely to come to blows with evil dragons, as a result the names "stuck" because of it, but any alignment can use them. Multi-Headed Chromatic Onslaught, as an example, explicitly mentions a Crusader of Bahamut using it as the finishing blow against five evil dragons simultaneously.

The second thing is I'm going through the Dungeons and Dreamboats threads for useful images. I'll make an Imgur album at some point and link it here.

DracoDei

2019-03-14, 11:50 PM

Well, that preview looks really rough. Not exactly a surprise for a Work In Progress of course.

1st:
Wyrmflesh: Stance - Gain a natural armour bonus that scales with Intimidate

Sounds fine so far.

Invoke the Dragon: Boost - Your next melee attack adds half your strength modifier as an addition to the damage.

VERY weak compared to Desert Wind's 1st level damage Boost Burning Blade... at least for an character with LA +0. For an actual dragon dipping a martial class or taking Martial Study this MIGHT actually be worth-while, but that would depend on how RHD work with I.L. and what their LA/CR is. the only avantage this has is that it isn't fire damage, which is often resisted.

As soon as you get more than one attack per round it is even worse.

tl;dr: Might actually want to make that your full strength modifier...

Lashing Claw: Strike - Make an attack with a light weapon as an immediate action, but deals less damage.

Sounds fine so far. Sorta like, Wolf Fang Strike (TC 1), Flashing Sun (DW 2), and Rapid Counter (DM 5), but different enough from all of them to have its own niche. That last one is the only one who I would say you need to especially check that you aren't stepping on the toes of, especially since I think taking an hand off of a two-hander to make an attack (including an AoO) with a (spiked) gauntlet then regrabbing it as a free action is perfectly acceptable.

Draconic Assault Stance: Stance - Deal damage as if your weapons were one size category larger.

You realize this is an 5th level Stone Dragon stance, right? (Giants Stance)

2nd:
Brutal Lizard Strength: Strike - Make a full attack as if your strength score were 6 points higher.

+4 or 5 damage with a two-hander? Might actually be worth it, might not compared to other options. See comments on "Invoke the Dragon" and compare to Tigerclaw and Diamond Mind maneuvers.

Sweeping Iron Tail: Strike - Attack three squares simultaneously.

Mini-Whirlwind attack? Be sure to check this against Mithril Tornado (IH 4)

Strike of Draconic Presence: Strike - After a successful melee attack, can demoralize as a free action, adding damage dealt to the intimidate check.

Sure this shouldn't be a counter or boost? If you really mean a Strike (which might or might not be needed for balance) it should read something like "Make a melee attack, if it is successful, attempt to demoralize the target as a free action, adding damage dealt to the intimidate check.

3rd:
Turn Aside the Flames: Counter - Make a melee attack in place of a saving throw against energy damage or breath weapons.

Fun. No idea on balance.

Glory of the Dragon: Stance - Gain Frightful Presence and immunity to draconic Frightful Presence

Umm... might want make sure that is scaled that down from full draconic frightful presence, or when you first get this the increased effect against those of 5 (4?) or less HD will make it cheesy.

Shell Crushing Might: Strike - Melee attack deals +2d6 damage can temporarily reduce target's damage reduction.

Interesting idea. Competes with XXX Mountain Hammer Stone Dragon maneuvers, while also being different enough to not feel like a direct copy. Balance using initiator action (Standard vs Full-Round) and duration.

4th:
Beseech the Dragon: Boost - All melee attacks made this round add half your strength modifier as an addition to the damage.

Okay, so now it can affect as many attacks as Burning Blade (DW 1), see my comments on this maneuvers 1st level predecessor.

Going to stop here with these for the moment.

EVERYONE: Speaking of Dragons... are we sure we want to continue to exclude Breath of Fire (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?143684-3-5-Breath-of-Fire-ToB-discipline-for-those-with-breath-attacks)?

In other news I have made a bunch of further edits to my Faultline series, including stuff in response to Elves latest round of critiques in that thread, adding the second of the main series, and an optional rule that nobody will probably want to bother with (I have this weird vendetta against fractions going unused).

Glanced at Soothed Beast (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?583376-A-Martial-Discipline-For-Pacifists-(PEACH)) earlier, had some thoughts, but it is getting too late for me to continence typing them up tonight.

Elves

2019-03-15, 12:19 AM

The second thing is I'm going through the Dungeons and Dreamboats threads for useful images. I'll make an Imgur album at some point and link it here.

I don't have anything relevant, but I've done a small amount of image trawling and here is my current album of stuff (https://imgur.com/a/ejB4Ca0). Many are just the PRC images collected from peoples' threads.

I'm only happy with a few of them honestly. The Red Child God is a cool idea though which I'll describe when it's time to put the fluff thread up. And the characters of "Mirian Ash" and "The Stag King" could, I feel, be cool.

Permissions-wise, basically assuming no one would have any reason to care (will credit though ofc).

FWIW your discipline could fit well with the Draconic Partisan PrC.

Speaking of Dragons... are we sure we want to continue to exclude Breath of Fire?

It's a cool idea. I excluded for 5 reasons:

1) too niche
2) breath augmentation already covered by metabreath feats
3) I think it's a mistake to have "a discipline for everything", each one should be its own idea not just a supporter -- this is why I like your pufferfish stance (makes TC more than "the TWF disc" and underlines its fundamental theme)
4) the color/feel of the name doesn't fit well in the overall list
5) the maneuvers are fairly bland augmentations to the breath weapon, with the result that a dragon using this would actually be LESS different of an experience than one using another discipline

If it were going to be included, 5) would have to be addressed -- the easiest way being to just give them cool names that the dragon shouts out: Burning Petal Breath Technique!

Actually that would be the funny spin on it, that these are the draconic equivalent of "breath techniques".

And of course the breath would have to change colors depending on the maneuver -- carnelian flecked with gold, etc

For the discipline to work you'd also have to do cool new things with your breath: instead of acid, breathe a purple vapor that does x, etc

Eldan

2019-03-15, 08:11 AM

That's a lot of Rakshasa. Which reminds me that we had a Rakshasa project at some point. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?497672-The-Rakshasa-Community-Project

I brewed some new Rakshasa for it, including a CR 10 Feral Rakshasa, who trades sorcerer spellcasting for Tiger Claw maneuvers, Pounce and more bestial shapeshifting.

Eldan

2019-03-15, 08:17 AM

I also found this story again and now want to write more Rakshasa stuff:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21141562&postcount=76

Eldan

2019-03-15, 08:19 AM

With regards to the watermarks:
Erasing watermarks is the biggest no from me. I'm marginally fine with using an artist's art without permission, but if we go around erasing artist's watermarks and signatures, I'm out of this project. That's just straight up theft.

Sgt. Cookie

2019-03-15, 02:31 PM

@DracoDei
(On mobile so manual quote editing is a pain in the arse)

Wyrmflesh: The tricky part will be figuring out breakpoints and values.

Invoke the Dragon: I've decided to do both, actually. All attacks at double strength for damage. Or 2.5x for two handers.

Lashing Claw: Yeah, the thing that REALLY makes Lashing Claw different is that you can't use it on your turn. It's sort of like having a held action at all times.

Draconic Assault Stance: I actually didn't, no. I hold the Stone Dragon stances in such low regard I don't think of them. Generally speaking, upgrading a dice size is usually an average of about 2 damage.

Possible replacement granting a limited version of Powerful Build, before upgrading at a later level?

Brutal Lizard Strength: The key thing with this maneuver line is the strength bonus gives an attack bonus as well, despite the fact they're actually less damaging than similar maneuvers.

Sweeping Iron Tail: Basically this maneuver lets you hit in a line adjacent to you. So, while it gives you one target above Steel Wind, but less aiming flexibility.

Strike of Draconic Presence: A Demoralize attempt is already a standard action, so turning it into a strike seemed like the best idea.

Turn Aside the Flames: Replace a save with an attack roll. Simple idea, should hopefully be balanced.

Glory of The Dragon: The fun thing is I can manipulate how the Frightful Presence works, for instance I can make it so the only condition is Shaken, and have it run off Initiator Level not hit dice. (Because the fun thing is, everyone has an initiator level!)

Shell Crushing Might: Yeah, gonna be an interesting one to balance.

@Elves:

My thinking was "dragons are the biggest, baddest dudes out there, so in this Martial Renaissance, it makes sense that some martial guys are gonny try and mimic them." . I chose to steer clear of their energy damage side, and focus on the physical night and boundless endurance.

Plus, who wouldn't love shouting out "Brutal Lizard's Strength" before slicing an enemy in two?

Sgt. Cookie

2019-03-16, 09:25 PM

So, I'm having a bit of writer's block in regards to Wyrm's Might. So, if anyone has any ideas regarding how Martial Adepts would represent a dragon's might, notably without being overtly supernatural, I'm all ears.

As an aside, as a replacement for Draconic Assault Stance, does this look alright for a first level stance?

The greatest weapon a dragon has is not its breath, its magical power or its physical might, but instead its mobility. To fight on the wing and stay out of an opponent's reach.
While in this stance and not flat footed you may, as an Immediate Action, move up to 10 feet provoking attacks of opportunity as normal. Moving in this manner also consumes your Move action for the round, as such if you have already moved and attacked or made a full round action this turn, you cannot make use of this stance.
Additionally, you cannot move in this manner "in response" to another's actions, but can otherwise move at any time.

(In other words, you can move "between" an enemy's actions, but not during. For example: if an opponent moves next to you, you can use this stance to move away, but, you would have to do so before your opponent uses his Standard action. Likewise, you cannot use this stance to move out of the way of an area effect spell or ability.)

EDIT: As an aside-aside I think that the Legacy Weapon for Wyrm's Might is going to be a pair of gauntlets that function like claws, mechanically functioning as a double weapon in that regard.

Sereg

2019-03-16, 10:31 PM

Multiple attacks, skirmish effects, pounce, intimidate options, attacking multiple targets with one attack, grappling, a bite attack, jumping, snatching targets, a scream that acts like a breath weapon

Sgt. Cookie

2019-03-16, 10:48 PM

Some of those I have done, but there are some good ideas in there. Thanks.

Additionally, what do people think of this image (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uAlZgAJaWVDQA4Iz2sXF3aVXOusH21SJ/view?usp=sharing) as the Wyrm's Might practitioner image? Personally, it really captures the feel I'm going for with this discipline. You see a person, but you feel a dragon.

Elves

2019-03-17, 12:52 AM

Draconic Corefire Prana - something something 'internal heat' heal/shake off effects
Break the Egg
Perspective of Aeons
Hatchling's Caution
Dominant Broodling - I saw an idea that one contributor to chromatic dragons being nastier is they might lay more eggs, resulting in savage competition between newly-hatched ones, where most die off (like birds etc do in nature but even moreso). This could be a battlefield control option where you push someone away, or it could be AOE
Probably want defensive "scale" maneuver(s) if none already there

Probably too obvious, ones based off the different colors. Something like:
Crimson Spite
Frozen Frenzy
Viridian Guile
Skyblue Illusion
Sable Sadist

Golden Serenity
Silverscale Valor
Copper Ingenuity
Bliss of Brass
Wisdom of Bronze

With regards to the watermarks:
Erasing watermarks is the biggest no from me. I'm marginally fine with using an artist's art without permission, but if we go around erasing artist's watermarks and signatures, I'm out of this project. That's just straight up theft.

Agreed. I think the only reference I made was to softening the edges of one where the text stood out sharply over the image; maybe even that's too far, but removing it wasn't in question.

Elves

2019-03-17, 12:23 PM

Open question: Any ideas for new species? Preferably of the PC race/mook race variety.

LA 0 forms of Rakshasa are very possible, but they're from Hindu mythology, so in addition I'd like to have at least one new race that is unique to Tome of Battle.

The way MOI had dusklings and so on.

Eldan

2019-03-17, 01:54 PM

We could do something with hobgoblins or warforged, maybe? Far from unique, I know, but they are quite fitting, at least.

Warforged have that nifty thing where they can get magic items implanted, perhaps we could write up a thing where Warforged could have the knowledge of maneuvers or stances inscribed on them.

Sgt. Cookie

2019-03-17, 03:47 PM

How about something like this:

Valkine

Much like celestials or fiends, Valkine are the result of humans and Valkyrie interbreeding generations prior. The descendents of these unions often have piercing, electric eyes and a near-unquenchable thirst for battle.

Racial traits:

Outsider (Native): Valkine are native outsiders, meaning they need to eat, sleep and breathe and can be raised or resurrected normally.

+2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma. Valkine are powerful combatants, but they have little patience and charm.and

Medium: As medium creatures, Valkine have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.

Valkine base land speed is 30ft

Darkvision: As Outsiders, Valkine have Darkvision out to sixty feet.

Martial Blood: Valkine, like the Valkyrie they are descended from, have an inherent desire and skill for battle. Valkine begin play knowing a martial maneuver from the following list:
[Insert list here]
This maneuver can be used once per encounter and refreshes after five minutes of meditation. Their Initiator Level for this maneuver is equal to their hit dice. Valkine may treat this ability as the Martial Study
feat for prerequisites.

+2 racial bonus on Intimidate checks, due to their piercing, electric gaze.

That's about it as a rough draft. Since "not humanoid" isn't actually worth level adjustment I figure this is probably fine at LA+0. Thoughts?

Elves

2019-03-17, 06:34 PM

Re Eldan: martial automaton (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?10460-Born-of-the-Nine-Swords-Creature) could become a warforged template/variant.

Re Sgt. Cookie: Yes, half-valkyries would be good as Ysgard planetouched.

And then for Acheron, the other plane of war, an entry on bladelings that makes them slightly cooler seems appropriate. I'm thinking super anime, not like the 4e picture (https://i.imgur.com/4WtqDFy.jpg) that makes them look like a halloween costume.

Still lacking something that's not a redo or half-breed though. Brainstorm:

Favored class Crusader: an extremely singleminded and obsessive species, because they (choose one)...
a) are hivelike, with everyone having a single function
b) evolved for extreme endurance hunting, perhaps on another plane
c) were the first draft of mortals, created as barely-independent vessels for the ideology of whatever god made them
d) are a strain of mortals brainwashed by gods, with their brains altered to be unquestioning servants
e) have some kind of inbaked propensity for pursuing a single mission, such as having 'quest jewels' instead of hearts

Favored class Swordsage: masters of chi and auras, what stereotypical elves are for the arcane
No idea what they'd look like, but possible traits:
- chameleonlike "mood ring" appearance, but more dramatic, so that they change physically depending on state of mind (don't animagi do this in HP?)
- they all transcended physicality a long time ago and their physical forms are merely manifestations of their real bodies, which are now ooshy gooshy light beings in some demiplane
- look alien -- more Ethereal-Filcher-style surreal than Lovecraft creepy-crawly

Favored class Warblade: not really sure, maybe something created by another species as combat champions (I guess the martial automatons could go here but ideally those would be for all disciplines)

Other random thoughts:
quadrupedal PC/mook race
melee warrior elf subrace (probably same stats as wood elf but without the high elf stats in addition)

Monsters:
warriors killed in a blood frenzy in battle who get killed but just keep fighting (undead)

---
I'd like to have the new race(s) not just be 'humans in costumes' but can't think of any good specifics about appearance right now. Quadrupedal could be at least a bit different though.

Sgt. Cookie

2019-03-17, 07:00 PM

Actually, if you're open to undead in this project:

Nine Wrought Soul

It is a secret known to those who have mastered the Sublime Way, that death is not the end of their knowledge, that their mastery will not go to the grave. But few are willing to use this secret, as it twists and corrupts the very knowledge they seek to preserve. Only the most unscrupulous masters wound even consider, let alone do.

By marking their bodies with knowledge, they seek to empower their very corpses with their experience, personality and mastery over the Sublime Way. Such twisted abominations are called Nine Wrought Souls.

Creating a Nine Wrought Soul

A Nine Wrought Soul is identical to the Standard Lich, with the following exceptions:

Ability Score Adjustment: Increase from the base creature as follows: +4 Strength, +2 Dexterity. Nine Wrought Souls, being undead, have no Constitution score. However, any HP gained from a high Con score are not lost, see Nine Wrought Toughness.

Nine Wrought Toughness (Ex): A Nine Wrought Soul gains the Nine Wrought Toughness ability, allowing them to use their Charisma in place of their Constitution for HP.
If his unmodified Constitution score, prior to becoming a Nine Wrought Soul, was higher than his current Charisma score, he continues to gain extra HP, as though he still had his constitution score. If his Charisma Score ever becomes higher than his prior unmodified Constituition score, recalculate HP accordingly.

Phylactery Equivelent

Nine Wrought Souls don't have phylacteries, instead they scribe the knowledge of all maneouvers they know onto their own flesh AND into the walls, celing, floor, etc, of a sanctum. This requires the Scribe Martial Script feat*, and some sort of method of making permenant marks.

Marking yourself in such a way costs 120,000 gp and 4,800 XP, or the actual cost if you were making Martial scripts of every maneouver you know, whichever is greater. Creating a Sanctum incurs no additional cost.

1d4 hours after the Nine Wrought Soul is slain, it reappears in its sanctum (The Nine Wrought Soul predetermines where in its sanctum). 1d10 days later, it comes back to life.

To permanently destroy a Nine Wrought Soul, you must slay it and destroy its catatonic form, before it comes back to life.

khadgar567

2019-03-18, 12:40 AM

well I have a race of demon vampires focusing on martial conquest but they use spheres of might from dropdead studios but if you want I can cook variant subspecies that uses sublime way as main sick

Sereg

2019-03-18, 06:04 AM

Okay. I've got an idea brewing. Give me some time and I'll make something out of it. The basic idea is battlefield fey with initiator abilities.

Eldan

2019-03-18, 07:08 AM

Sgt. Cookie

2019-03-18, 10:02 AM

Martial dragon you say? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=9426995&postcount=44)

Sereg

2019-03-18, 10:38 AM

Should we make some more monsters in general too? Because Battlefield fey could also be interesting at mid-levels. ANd I'd like to see a few things like martial devils, martial demons, maybe a martial dragon or martial giant?
Agreed. My idea is probably too powerful for a LA 0 race anyway. But I'll still work on it.

Martial dragon you say? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=9426995&postcount=44)

Can't open the link, but I'm guessing this is my pride and joy? Maybe we should make a usually evil equivalent though? Ivory Dragon?

I've also been considering making the monster White Raven was based on. And maybe a martial undead template.

Sgt. Cookie

2019-03-18, 10:47 AM

Possibly. Enyo dragon from Zaydos' old dragon thread?

Eldan

2019-03-18, 10:50 AM

Making an actual White Raven is giving me a new idea for a mystical initiator. Or maybe a Spirit Shaman/Swordsage cross class, which goes to find animal spirits which embody the soul of a discipline. Because Questing for the White Raven as your spirit guide just sounds like fun.

Sereg

2019-03-18, 10:59 AM

Eldan

2019-03-18, 11:05 AM

I'm not sure how it would actually work, though, other than a cool fluff idea. If anyone wants to run with this, feel free.

Elves

2019-03-18, 11:22 AM

Did you read the draft of the Animist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?582140-The-Animist-(new-take-on-TOB-ranger)) class? That could be the fluff for their Animal God Companion, which doesn't have any fluff right now.

White ravens are a thing though (https://www.google.com/search?biw=1440&bih=745&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=GcWPXMrWEY3z-gSU4JjwCw&q=white+raven&oq=white+raven&gs_l=img.3..0j0i67l4j0j0i67j0l3.3316.4812..6328... 0.0..0.196.283.1j1......1....1..gws-wiz-img.QLC50xkD8ts)

Re khadgar: sounds good, link?

Sereg

2019-03-18, 12:01 PM

Alabaster Raven? It's meant to be a magical beast with Bard and Marshall abilities and natural initiating. Really nasty in large groups.

Elves

2019-03-18, 12:48 PM

I would say make them either be constructs -- literal animated alabaster ravens (or at least they revert to being alabaster statues when killed) -- or have them be the offspring of a powerful white raven animal spirit after whom the discipline may have been named.

===

Still chipping away at legacy weapons. The little fluff bits aren't hard to write but the assigning stats part is tedious.

DracoDei

2019-03-19, 06:33 AM

Meh... Just going to post this before.my tablet eats it. Might edit in more actual relishes the end later or something... Ditto for fixing accidentally repeating part of then post in the middle. EDIT: Okay, I THINK I fixed the copy-pasta problem. Still might edit in more responses to quote-blocks that don't have a response yet.

Eldan: At one point you had three posts in a row in less than 10 minutes. I know this area of the forums is less strict about the three-post rule, but please use the "edit" option in future?

It's a cool idea. I excluded for 5 reasons:

While this is probably the correct decision, I am going to present some counter-arguments.

1) too niche

In this case I consider the niche nature to be what makes it desirable. Most strikes can be done with any natural or manufactured weapon. Even Tiger Claw has Rabid Bear/Wolf Strikes, which favor a two-thirds (for the same reason 2 handers are usually better), but which can still be done with even a light or natural weapon.
But despite the iconic nature of breath weapons, there aren't very many (any?) maneuvers or stances that enhance them. Giving them a way to feel more martial seems like it would enhance the feel of the setting. "Everything is martial!"

2) breath augmentation already covered by metabreath feats

By this logic, one could argue that the TWF maneuvers of Tiger Claw shouldn't exist.

3) I think it's a mistake to have "a discipline for everything", each one should be its own idea not just a supporter -- this is why I like your pufferfish stance (makes TC more than "the TWF disc" and underlines its fundamental theme)

I think a maneuver or stance (and if necessary, discipline) for as many options a possible is good. What isn't necessary is that the maneuver or stance be SPECIFIC to that situation.

I
4) the color/feel of the name doesn't fit well in the overall list

Would we need the author's permission to change the name? Even if so, should I'd we at least try to obtain it?

5) the maneuvers are fairly bland augmentations to the breath weapon, with the result that a dragon using this would actually be LESS different of an experience than one using another discipline

Really? At high levels this may become true, but for the first several there is at least one I consider to change the tactical impact of the breath weapon noticably. Or were you, as I discuss below, more talking about the names than the mechanics?

1st level
Twisting flame: Strike–make line breath attack change direction once.

(Not quite as interesting except that it means the above can apply to dragons that naturally have a cone BW. Elemental mantra: Stance–change shape of breath attack.)

2nd level
Incinerate: Boost–Stronger breath at point blank range.
Burning revenge: Counter–use breath attack on creature which just struck you. ((Might be even more a matter of taste than most of these examples.))
Destroyer flame: Strike–Disarm or sunder with breath attack.

3rd level
Burning soul: Strike-use breath weapon and heal damage.

4th level
Covering fire: Strike– breath, and creatures that fail the save cannot make attacks of oportunity and move at half speed for 1 turn.

5th level
Elemental assault: Strike-use breath weapon, then teleport to any empty space on the area of effect.

6th level
Heaven and Hell wind: Strike–use breath weapon, heals equal amount..

If it were going to be included, 5) would have to be addressed -- the easiest way being to just give them cool names that the dragon shouts out: Burning Petal Breath Technique!

That solution is reasonable, but seems to address an extension of 4 more than the mechanical side of 5... Or are you saying that the fluff side of 5 seems much more important to you?

Actually that would be the funny spin on it, that these are the draconic equivalent of "breath techniques".

Oh and ofc the breath would have to change colors depending on the maneuver -- carnelian flecked with gold, etc

For the discipline to work you'd also have to do cool new things with your breath: instead of acid, breathe a purple vapor that does x, etc
possibly a valid point, but consider the author's response to my pointing out that this discipline does much less for non-hitpoijt-damage based breathweapons:

EDIT^2: I would also throw in a sprinkling of maneuvers that increase the duration of effect, DC, and/or damage from breathweapons that deal ability damage/drain, calm, paralyze, etc.

No. I thought of it, and quickly reached the conclusion that most breaths that don't deal damage don't really need any help. ToB schools are about damage and some nifty effects, not about spammable save-or-dies with insane DCs, wich is what most nondamage breaths amount to. A shaddow dragon inflicting 7 negative levels in area and a mist dragon daze in area are already very dangerous as it is.

@DracoDei
(On mobile so manual quote editing is a pain in the arse)

Wyrmflesh: The tricky part will be figuring out breakpoints and values.

Invoke the Dragon: I've decided to do both, actually. All attacks at double strength for damage. Or 2.5x for two handers.

Lashing Claw: Yeah, the thing that REALLY makes Lashing Claw different is that you can't use it on your turn. It's sort of like having a held action at all times.

I think immediate actions usually can be used during one's own turn, so you would need the full text in the maneuver in question specifically disallowing it.

Also, this seems a pretty minor restriction, baring spring attack and the like, since directly before or after your turn are acceptable times. Although it might be needed so it doesn't turn into a (partial?) substitute for spring attack itself. If you really want to emphasize the "separate moment of action", you could perhaps say that you can't use it after your turn until the next person (enemy?) has taken at least one action (or ends their turn?).

Draconic Assault Stance: I actually didn't, no. I hold the Stone Dragon stances in such low regard I don't think of them. Generally speaking, upgrading a dice size is usually an average of about 2 damage.

Well, 1 or 2 for medium without powerful build, higher mini levels(?) and/or superior unarmed strike etc, more once you start stacking stuff.

Possible replacement granting a limited version of Powerful Build, before upgrading at a later level?

Limited how?

Brutal Lizard Strength: The key thing with this maneuver line is the strength bonus gives an attack bonus as well, despite the fact they're actually less damaging than similar maneuvers.

And now I feel less.than smart...

Sweeping Iron Tail: Basically this maneuver lets you hit in a line adjacent to you. So, while it gives you one target above Steel Wind, but less aiming flexibility.

Well, I assume it can be wrapped around a corner, but yes. Although unless they are pulling off a flank, it is usually going to be the same or better I should think? Not quite sure how the tactics/geometry workout off-hand.

Strike of Draconic Presence: A Demoralize attempt is already a standard action, so turning it into a strike seemed like the best idea.

It wasn't which action it should be that I was questioning exactly, it was that your phrasing weird. I offered two different ways of fixing it, depending on what your intent was. Either changing the maneuver type (appears this isn't the solution you want), or re-phrasing to alter the implied timing of initiating the manuever.

Turn Aside the Flames: Replace a save with an attack roll. Simple idea, should hopefully be balanced.

Well, about as much as replacing a specific type of save with an ability check, probably? So, yes, probably balanced!

Glory of The Dragon: The fun thing is I can manipulate how the Frightful Presence works, for instance I can make it so the only condition is Shaken, and have it run off Initiator Level not hit dice. (Because the fun thing is, everyone has an initiator level!)

Sounds good!

Shell Crushing Might: Yeah, gonna be an interesting one to balance.

Yep.

So, I'm having a bit of writer's block in regards to Wyrm's Might. So, if anyone has any ideas regarding how Martial Adepts would represent a dragon's might, notably without being overtly supernatural, I'm all ears.

As an aside, as a replacement for Draconic Assault Stance, does this look alright for a first level stance?

The greatest weapon a dragon has is not its breath, its magical power or its physical might, but instead its mobility. To fight on the wing and stay out of an opponent's reach.
While in this stance and not flat footed you may, as an Immediate Action, move up to 10 feet provoking attacks of opportunity as normal. Moving in this manner also consumes your Move action for the round, as such if you have already moved and attacked or made a full round action this turn, you cannot make use of this stance.
Additionally, you cannot move in this manner "in response" to another's actions, but can otherwise move at any time.

(In other words, you can move "between" an enemy's actions, but not during. For example: if an opponent moves next to you, you can use this stance to move away, but, you would have to do so before your opponent uses his Standard action. Likewise, you cannot use this stance to move out of the way of an area effect spell or ability.)

I would say make them either be constructs -- literal animated alabaster ravens (or at least they revert to being alabaster statues when killed) -- or have them be the offspring of a powerful white raven animal spirit after whom the discipline may have been named.
I think some made a literal White Raven before? I may try to search it up.

In other news I have in mind to make monstrous (trap door) spiders and/or giant praying mantii with my faultline maneuvers.to take advantage of its ambush aspect.

Sgt. Cookie

2019-03-20, 07:06 PM

Ok, so I finally have the Wyrm's Might short list finished. Many of these don't have corresponding maneuvers, yet, but broadly speaking I know what I want them to be. So, here ya go:

EDIT: By default, Crusaders and Warblades have access to this discipline. Warlords should probably have access to this as well. Swashbucklers probably shouldn't, as this discipline relies more on brute force rather than skill or panache.

Key skill: Intimidate
Preferred Weapons: Claw, Unarmed Strike, Slam, Kukri, Dagger, Short Sword

Legacy Weapon: Claws of the Dragon (A pair of gauntlets that grants the wearer a pair of claw attacks.)

1st:
Wyrmflesh: Stance - Gain a natural armour bonus that scales with Intimidate
Invoke the Dragon: Boost - All melee attacks this round use twice your strength modifier for damage.
Lashing Claw: Strike - Make an attack with a light weapon as an immediate action, but deals less damage.
Wingfooted Stance: Stance - If you have not used your Move action this round, move 10ft as an Immediate action.

2nd:
Brutal Lizard Strength: Strike - Make a full attack as if your strength score were 6 points higher.
Sweeping Iron Tail: Strike - Attack three squares simultaneously.
Strike of the Scaled One's Terror: Strike - After a successful melee attack, can demoralize as a free action, adding damage dealt to the intimidate check.
Juvenile Scale Defence: Counter - Reduce incoming damage by 10 points.

3rd:
Turn Aside the Flames: Counter - Make a melee attack in place of a saving throw against energy damage or breath weapons.
Glory of the Dragon: Stance - Gain Frightful Presence
Shell Crushing Might: Strike - Melee attack deals +2d6 damage can temporarily reduce target's damage reduction.

4th:
Beseech the Dragon: Boost - All melee attacks made this round add triple your strength modifier to damage.
Attack On The Wing: Boost - After a successful melee attack, move up to 10 feet.

5th:
Hulking Lizard Strength: Strike - Make a full attack as if your strength score were 12 points higher
Adult Scale Defence: Counter - Reduce incoming damage by 20 points.
Broodslaying Style: Stance - Cannot be flanked, gain a stacking +2 bonus when surrounded.
Roar Of The Scaled Sovereign: Other - Enemies that fail a will save move away from you.

6th:
Scale Shedding Rejuvenation: Other - Take a penalty to AC to heal hit points and remove several status effects.
Draconic Spell Rejection: Counter - Can make an Intimidate check to resist some spells.

7th:
Launching Claw Strike: Strike - Attack launches enemy up to 60 feet. Deals 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet.
Flying Dragon Assault: Strike - Charge, making a full attack at any point.

8th:
Tyrannical Lizard Strength: Strike - Make a full attack as if your strength score were 24 points higher.
Wyrm Scale Defence: Reduce incoming damage by 50 points.
Embrace The Dragon Spirit: Stance - Gain the Dragon type, powerful build and two secondary slam attacks.

9th:
Multi-Headed Chromatic Onslaught: Strike - Make five attacks at your highest base attack bonus all with +5d6 damage.

Things to note:

Draconic Spell Rejection: Basically, this maneuver grants you a one-shot spell resistance by making an Intimidate check.

Embrace the Dragon Spirit: Gaining the Dragon type is mostly a flavour thing, as at best it grants darkvision and a couple of immunities to some uncommon effects. Also, it grants Slams because that's the closest thing a non-winged humanoid gets to a wing attack.

As an aside, personally, I think Embrace The Dragon Spirit and and Stance of Dragon's Blood (The Draconic Partisan capstone) should be able to be used simultaneously, just as a neat flavour thing.

As always, questions and what have you. When I get the full thing sorted, I'll post the full discipline in it's own thread.

EDIT EDIT: As an aside, the flavor of this discipline is that it's practitioners channel something called "The dragon spirit". They believe that, much like dragon shamans or dragonfire adepts, any being can tap into the essence of what it means to be a dragon, only they channel that essence into martial prowess, rather than supernatural powers.

I swear that I went with this flavour before I ever looked over your Animist, Elves. So, uh, yeah.

EDIT EDIT EDIT:

And here it is in all its ugly, unflavoured, draconic glory. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?583822-Wyrm-s-Might-martial-discipline-(Designed-for-The-Age-of-Warriors)-PEACH!&p=23790464#post23790464)

DracoDei

2019-03-22, 07:00 PM

Have made several edits over the days to the "Faultline" series, and today I much simplified the second maneuver in the original series by making it refer to the first rather than repeating stuff that didn't vary between the two.

Much more importantly, I added the first of a SECOND series of maneuvers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?582822-(ToB)-(Maneuver)-Faultline-Maneuver(s)-for-Stone-Dragon-(P-E-A-C-H-)&p=23794965&viewfull=1#post23794965), which are AoE based. Look for it in the first post BETWEEN the first two maneuvers, or in post #7.

I'm interested if I made the options for the Area clear enough (they only get worse from here as I add more options).

I've been working behind the scenes (some more behind the scenes than others) to get both series plotted out, but I want to be sure that the basics are good before I continue the chains. I am especially worried about the damage progressions, and, as I said, the area options and restrictions.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that I also reduced the pre-requisites of the Faultline series, and saw how much Stone Dragon is seen as discipline with only a few useful maneuvers. This is especially true for Swordsages until one gets access to 2nd level maneuvers. This, combined with the fact that very low level warblades and crusaders usually end up preparing ALL their maneuvers known means that taking anything niche purpose is very problematic, especially for a Crusader who will often find the maneuver eating into his maneuvers granted when it isn't needed (IE any time it becomes available in actual combat).

Sgt. Cookie

2019-03-23, 05:33 PM

Right so, Wyrm's Might is as done as its going to be without actually playtesting it. Its legacy weapon isn't done yet, but that's coming soon.

Secondly, @Elves, because the Animist class is yours, feel free to do whatever you deem necessary for Wyrm's Might's animist spirit, as you'd know better than I would as to how the discipline fits in with that class.

Elves

2019-03-23, 06:14 PM

Will look it over, I haven't been on the board.

Fluffwise, the only thing is, since your main goal for the disc was to make it nonmagical, isn't that undercut a bit by having the source be a spirit? Seems like it might be more badass for it to be just mortal warriors imitating dragons.

--

Haven't done any new AOW stuff but I did take a look at the Book of Five Rings (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Five_Rings) which was the source material for the original TOB. It's funny because TOB is all the fancy ornamental stuff that the real book decries. Have to think of a way to reconcile that so that it doesn't seem too garish.

Sgt. Cookie

2019-03-23, 07:01 PM

The thing is, it is just mortal warriors imitating dragons. In the fluff intro, "the dragon spirit" is actually just what the discipline's inventors called ki, which is the "power source" for all martial maneuvers, before they really understood what they had created.

Basically, Wyrm's Might didn't actually exist as a discipline until after the Temple's fall and the knowledge of the Sublime Way became more widespread. Before that, the inventors believed that they were tapping into the essence of what it means to be a dragon. Calling it "the dragon spirit" stuck around simply because it sounded fancy.

Elves

2019-03-25, 03:51 PM

Super quick, ACFs for core classes. Main question: should they have maneuvers readied or should it be just as if learned through Martial Study?

Alternate Class Feature (Swordsage): Akashic Timesage
You may trade one of your starting disciplines for Akasha’s Timepiece. Normally it’s only available to machinists. You refer to it as a discipline, not a college.

Core Class ACFs

These ACFs give core classes limited access to martial maneuvers.

These maneuvers behave as if known through the Martial Study feat (but do not count against the number of times you can take Martial Study).

These ACFs don’t grant stances.

By default, we assume levels in sublime class variants still count for only 1/2 initiator level. However, the DM has our total sanction to rule that they count for full.

Maneuver progression
Barbarians and fighters gain their maneuvers at odd levels. Rangers and rogues gain their maneuvers at even levels. Monks and paladins gain two disciplines, receiving maneuvers from one at even levels and maneuvers from the other at odds.

EVEN PROGRESSION
You gain 1 maneuver at 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, and 18th.

ODD PROGRESSION
You gain 1 maneuver at 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th.

All Sublime Way class variants gain the associated skills of their discipline(s) as class skills.

Alternate Class Feature (Barbarian): Sublime Barbarian
Odd progression. You gain a discipline that depends on your totem animal:

Ape Totem: White Raven (you call it “Social Ape”)
Bear Totem: Stone Dragon (you call it “Grounded Bear”)
Boar Totem: Scarlet Bravura (you call it “Reckless Boar”)
Cat/Jaguar Totem (ie default): Tiger Claw
Dragon Totem: Wyrm’s Might
Eagle Totem: Diamond Mind (You call it “Alert Hunter”)
Horse Totem: Twin Spirit
Lion Totem: Doesn’t exist, use Spirit Lion Totem (cat totem covers all of panthera)
Serpent Totem: Chthonic Serpent
Wolf Totem: Chthonic Serpent (you call it “Wolf Fells Prey”)

Spirit Lion Totem: none, buster

Alternate Class Feature (Fighter): Sublime Fighter
You gain Iron Heart, using the odd progression.

Alternate Class Feature (Monk): Sublime Monk
You gain both Diamond Mind and Setting Sun. Of your two disciplines, choose which will occupy the even progression and which will occupy the odd progression.

You lose slow fall. Instead you take half damage from falling, up to the same maximum of 20d6.

Alternate Class Feature (Paladin): Sublime Paladin
You gain Devoted Spirit (even progression). You also gain a planar discipline (odd progression). This planar discipline corresponds to your alignment: paladins of righteousness gain Golden Saint, paladins of freedom gain Kaleidoscopic Dream, paladins of tyranny gain Ninefold Damnation, and paladins of slaughter gain Infinite Torment. If you fall, you retain access to your Devoted Spirit maneuvers but lose access to your planar discipline maneuvers.

A former paladin of righteousness or freedom who trades paladin levels for levels in blackguard may trade their planar discipline maneuvers for Infinite Torment (if now CE), Ninefold Damnation (if now LE), or Stygian Nightmare (if now NE) maneuvers of equivalent or lesser level.

In exchange for their maneuver progression, however, Sublime Way paladins suffer two serious consequences. First, the damage bonus for your Smite Evil is +1d6 per paladin level, not +1. Second, you are able to summon your divine steed at will, with no time limit. The normal penalties and waiting period apply if it dies.

Alternate Class Feature (Ranger): Sublime Ranger
When you make your combat style choice, you gain a discipline, using the even progression. Dual wielders gain Tiger Claw. Archers gain Falling Star.

In exchange, however, you must receive your animal companion at 1st level instead of 4th, and it progresses like a druid’s.

Alternate Class Feature (Rogue): Sublime Rogue
You gain Shadow Hand, using the even progression.

You gain [a lvl 20 capstone].

Sgt. Cookie

2019-03-25, 04:25 PM

Aside from the fact I have no clue what these classes are losing in exchange for access to these maneuvers (Paladin and Ranger get upgrades even!), they all look pretty good. Choices all appear to make sense.

DracoDei

2019-03-25, 04:28 PM

Calling them ACF's when they are straight power-ups (unless I am missing something?) seems misleading. Note I'm not saying that they NEED to lose anything(we are powering up the Martial Adepts as well, and full-featured are... not in need of a boost except maybe at very low level.), just that the naming is confusing.

As for if they should get a recovery method... eh, at least give them the Swordsage's original recovery method. That should at least give consistent rules for Mountain Hammer outside of combat... or is it only Crusaders where that is confusing in the first place?

In any case at least give them that. Makes the setting feel more "martially", although I guess it might be more complexity. I am not a good guy to talk to about if things are too complicated* or not. I guess the obvious question is "What would best balance between adept and non-adept, non-full-caster classes?" I know that is the right question, but I don't know the answer. BUT, as is often the case, framing the question is very helpful I think**.
*The Mythos system had a thread subtitled "Where Simplicity Goes To Die"... I still wrote the most complex Mythos class to exist according to Lanth Sor.
**I have heard that "Questions are more important than answers", and on a related note that seems to contradict.this philosophy, but actual supports it "He is a fool who can not ask, more than ten wise men can answer."(Piet Hien ?)... Which to me speaks to the breadth of human of not only God's creation, but also human knowledge.

EDIT: What does Wolf totem grant (EDIT^2:before our changes) again? Seems like wolf->tripping->Setting Sun or wolf->pack lead by strongest->White Raven would be the more intuitive logic.

Also, it seems to me that my Faultline and Quake maneuver series may be more useful to NPCs than PCs and that could be a bad thing given how deadly they can be when properly applied. Or does that threat just make the players think more, which I see as.good?

Elves

2019-03-26, 12:49 AM

Since these are meant as powerups, I thought it was better to be straightforward about that than to require a token removal of some ability.

Re your maneuver series, I wouldn't overthink it. Instagib is a choice on the DM's part.

Wolf Totem gives Improved Trip.

--

I don't want to overload people with legacy weapons so here's the writing portion for just two. One long story-type one, one short and storyless.

Scarlet Bravura

Legend has it that the Temple of Nine Swords was almost the Temple of Ten Swords. While all other disciplines had one master to represent them at the Temple, Reshar chose two to represent White Raven, perhaps symbolizing its reliance on unity in battle. The two masters were a pair of master warlords: Lord Vyrist, a knight renowned throughout the world as the White Tower, and the equally legendary Scarlet Bravado, Commander Gurran. However, the two had very different views of their discipline, and on the nature of leadership. Vyrist believed that White Raven should embody the principles of command and authority, using allies as tools to achieve a goal. Gurran, however, believed that a commander must sacrifice himself for the sake of those serving him, and that this is what White Raven must be. The two masters eventually grew cold to each other. Finally, in a fit of anger, Lord Vyrist lashed out at Gurran over an argument, thirsting for his blood. Though the fight was ended by Reshar’s mediation, Commander Gurran could no longer stay. He left the Temple, and codified what he alone knew of the White Raven style into a new discipline that he called Scarlet Bravura after his nickname. His techniques were forever lost to the White Raven adepts of the Temple, only learned by the elite cadre of disciples the Commander acquired in his post-Temple career. The Scarlet Bravura discipline's associated skill is Perform (Oratory), relying on inspiring speeches and comforting words as you lead from the front. The associated weapons of the Scarlet Bravura discipline are the bastard sword, greatsword, lance, rapier, and spiked shield.

Blood Promise, Sword of the Scarlet General

Appearance: a longsword that is entirely crimson red except for the wire that’s been wrapped around its handle for grippage.

Omen: It’s a red sword made of no normal material.

Reshar never forgot Gurran’s mistreatment. He had never wanted him to leave, even after the quarrel, and regretted that his expertise was never circulated as widely as it should have been. Even afterward he kept sporadic contact with Gurran, though never face to face, since the Commander’s path now took him to lead wars in distant places, shores even Reshar had never tread. They only lost contact when Reshar first vanished, gone sword-searching.

As he tracked down the swords that would become so linked to his name, the Master always meant to find a sword that embodied Gurran’s teachings as well, for these seemed more valid to him every year -- though they had found little popular traction, and the Scarlet Bravado himself had, after decades of self-imposed exile abroad, been largely forgotten.

Eventually, Reshar found all of the Nine, yet a sword for Scarlet Bravura still eluded him. While the call he felt wasn’t death, he could tell he would soon have to leave earth, and with his strength pulling him elsewhere, his ability to care about this task was gone. He weighed the promise he had made to himself. (DC 20; When Energy Is Gone)

He wanted to complete the task he had set: that much was vanity. But he couldn’t leave until his tenth disciple was done some justice. Reshar tracked Gurran down in a distant nation. Both were now old men, but while Reshar’s silver hair and lined face matched his student, his body was seemingly more vital than when he was young. The same could not be said of Gurran, who though younger had been forced to give up martial practice by age. The two embraced, and shared the many stories and thoughts they had never been able to fit into their letters. Reshar spoke of his search for the Nine Swords, and admitted that he’d failed to find one for Gurran. Gurran laughed and pointed out that it was years since he’d last used a sword in combat, anyway.

When dusk had sunk around them, Reshar asked Gurran to become blood brothers, in the old way. While the gesture seemed a bit strained for two men so near the end of life, Gurran was touched. With a knife, each prepared to make a small cut in the other’s arm; the cuts would then be pressed together, the blood intermixed. But Gurran’s hand, trembling with infirmity, spasmed and cut a great gash across Reshar’s forearm.

Gurran was horrified, and gushed a thousand apologies, yet Reshar only looked at him, eyes locked in a serene, unearthly gaze. The blood poured out of his arm in streams. As it hit the floor it formed a pool shaped like a sword. The pool of blood became a sword that was rich red from tip to pommel. (DC 25; Reconciliation)

Reshar presented the sword to his former student thus: “This blade is my blood promise to you that your teachings won’t be forgotten.” He told Gurran to give the sword to his best disciple and send them to the Temple of Nine Swords, where they would become the tenth master it was always meant to have. Then he left.

Gurran did as Reshar asked. While none of his students were eager to leave everything behind, travel to a faraway land and take up a post where they would never have the chance to lead an army, it was clear a sacrifice was needed. One named Ialdobus volunteered. Entrusted with the sword, he began his journey to the Temple by boarding a ship.

Unfortunately, he had chosen to travel with a merchant convoy, since there weren’t enough travelers between the two lands to justify passenger ships. The richly loaded convoy attracted pirates, a whole fleet of them. Surrounded, the merchants begged Ialdobus to lead them, promising him huge payment, for they knew he had led armies in war before. They were all in the same boat(s); what could he do but accept?

Ialdobus spurred the merchant ships into action, jettisoning heavy cargo as they sped straight toward one of the pirate ships -- for only by ganging up on the enemy ships individually could the outnumbered merchants hope for victory. It was all in the geometry of ship movement. As the battle neared its end, it became clear that one ship would have to play a sacrificial role, cutting off a trio of pirate ships so that the rest could be finished off. The ship best placed to fill this role was the one Ialdobus was on. Any other ship, and the risk of losing would increase.

Some would call it selfish for him to risk his life like that when he had promised to make it to the Temple. And yet, in that moment, clarity descended on him. Reaching the Temple might make a difference, or it might not. What mattered was that these people had entrusted him with leadership. He couldn’t betray that trust just because it gave him better prospects. He committed to the strategy. They won, and he died.

The merchant captain confiscated Blood Promise from the pirates who had boarded Ialdobus’s ship and killed him. He swore he would return it to Gurran’s school after the return voyage. But promises are tricky things, and for one reason or another, that never happened.

The sword that came from Reshar’s blood is now remembered only by students of Scarlet Bravura. It represents failed promises but also fulfilled duties. (DC 31; What Circumstance Throws In The Way)

Coin’s Edge

The Coin’s Edge discipline is a rare form of martial arts, one never taught at the Temple of Nine Swords. The discipline was singlehandedly created by a single swordsman, a legendary master known as Uther Doul. Doul had studied probability magic, a mystic practice that lets its users alter the flow of probability and chance. He was able to create what he called probability meditations, mantras a warrior could use to similarly bend probability without having to have any mastery of magic. Doul used his probability meditations to great effect. He was able to call up possible strikes, extremely accurate or damaging attacks that could have been, and bring them into reality, and to do the reverse – force foes to use only the weakest of attacks. He eventually developed a codified martial discipline, which he called Coin’s Edge, relying on both these probability meditations and on a natural sense of chance, the gambler’s intuition that is key to Coin’s Edge maneuvers. The Coin’s Edge discipline’s associated skill is Profession (Gambler), as the ability to manipulate the odds to one’s advantage is essential to the discipline. The associated weapons of the Coin’s Edge discipline are the dagger, falchion, longsword, rapier, scimitar, and two-bladed sword.

Possibility, the Original Luckblade

A shortsword with bold but not gaudy lines of gold inlay.

Omen: When you hold it you see waves of probability everywhere.

People take Possibility and then trash it as soon as they get their wish. It’s more of a fling than a thing. (DC 15)

But only someone who has a shallow mastery of luck will stop when Possibility spends its more outlandish potential. Students of Coin’s Edge know that drastic, dramatic lottery wins aren’t everything. A consistent series of small pushes in the right direction can you take you somewhere almost as incredible. (DC 20; Ripple Effect)

And if you press on, navigating the latticework of all potential with the help of Coin’s Edge and your luckblade, you will inevitably become a student of the non-deterministic chaos that underlies reality. Determinism is fixed, but chaos has room left for control. (DC 25; Chaos Tamer)

And ultimately, delving through the branching reams of the possible, you will understand how truly self-centered and futile the fixation on wishes, miracles, and lucky strikes is. Instead, at this stage you delight in manifesting all possibilities at once, like a probability curve brought to life, or a multiversal Aleph. (DC 31; The Mechanism Of All Results)

Here are the weapons that still need doing (if you want to - hint, hint - volunteer)

Army of One - One Man Stand, tower shield
Bloodstained Gutter - Famous Prison Shiv (lesser legacy only)
Dancing Leaf - Eldan claimed
Event Horizon -
Falling Anvil - Frying Pan of Doom, possibly Rubber Chicken?
Falling Star - Bow or crossbow with sniper theme
Fool’s Grip - The Universal Weapon
Phoenix Feather - Magic longbow modeled after hank's bow
[Volley Archery Discipline] -
Witch Razor -

—Planar Disciplines—

Infinite Torment - “Flamescourge" or something dramatic like that* (Pair O'Dice possibly doing)
Kaleidoscopic Dream -
Ninefold Damnation - cornugon spiked chain, barbezu glaive, or a flamberge (Pair O'Dice possibly doing)
Stygian Nightmare - a scythe

khadgar567

2019-03-26, 02:13 AM

I think blood blade has hidden ritual were holder needs to complete the last request and return the blade to temple

Elves

2019-03-26, 11:44 AM

Hidden rituals that can be done at any point, good idea. For some weapons I've also added a "culmination" entry about how their legacy can end or be used up.

Sgt. Cookie

2019-03-26, 10:02 PM

So, here's the nonlegacy stats and story for the Claws of The Dragon. Wyrm's Might's weapon:

Claws of The Dragon are a pair of dragonhide gauntlets. The type of dragonhide they are made from is impossible to determine.

Nonlegacy Game Statistics: +1 Dragonhide Gauntlets; cost 4,604
Omen: While worn, the gauntlets shift in colouration once per minute, as though it were made from different types of dragonhide. If the wearer is good, it shifts through the metallic colours, whereas if you are evil it shifts through the chromatic ones and if you are neutral it shifts through all of them. A DC 11 will save reveals this to be an illusionary effect.
When not worn, the gauntlets' true colouration is indetermenate.

History

According to draconic legend, Io did not have two children, but three. While Bahamut and Tiamat survived to this day, there was a third child, Toovir (Draconic for Adventurer), who died long ago. Toovir was, by no means, weak, but it had no understanding of mortals. The legend goes that Toovir's first encounter was with a tribe of Elves who, having never seen a dragon before, slew Toovir believing it to be a threat. (DC 15)
No part of Toovir went to waste. Its meat fed the tribe for weeks, its blood was found to be a potent magical reagent, but it was its hide that proved the most useful. Armour, shields and more were made from from the remains of Io's third child. Amongst those pieces formed in the ancient days were the gauntlets that would one day become the Claws of The Dragon. (DC 18; Wasting Not The Slain)
Historically, the oldest confirmed sighting of these gauntlets was in the possession of the Half-green dragon, elf warlord Marthyn. He believed that humans were an inferior race, fit only to be conquered. Gathering a cadre of his fellow elves, he wisely decided that he would start small and conquer a nearby human town first, to see what humans were capable of. Before his small army ever reached the gates, they were accosted by a single human female warrior on the road who, in perfect elvish, provoked Marthyn into a one-on-one duel. Marthyn was subsequently slain, his army dispersed and the warrior claimed Marthyn's equipment as a prize. Among them, his gauntlets. Green dragonhide when he lived, but upon his death changing into a strange, brown-grey colour. (DC 25; A Warrior Alone)
This human was called Aryth and upon touching the gauntlets knew that they were of a strange origin. Though she was not a follower of Bahamut, Aryth knew that a small shrine could be found less than a day away. Thinking she might find a cleric of the platinum dragon there, she traveled to the shrine and found it empty, but welcoming. Wondering what she should do, Aryth felt a strange sensation that told her to place the gauntlets onto the altar. After doing so, she found a comfortable spot and fell into a calm, meditative trance. In her dreamlike state, Aryth came face to face with Bahamut himself, seemingly mournful. After thanking her, Bahamut asked of Aryth the strangest request: That she visit a shrine to Tiamat and lay the gauntlets there. Bahamut told her where one might be found and Aryth agreed to do as Bahamut asked. It took her a week to find the secluded, and similarly empty, shrine and though it unnerved her to be in this place, Aryth nevertheless placed the gauntlets down and one again slipped into a trance. This time, however, there were two beings. Bahamut and another, five-headed dragon. Tiamat. The two spoke no words, reconciliation was impossible. Instead, they shared a few moments of mourning, once more reunited with their lost sibling. Turning to Aryth, Tiamat gave the human a genuine, heartfelt "Thank you" before the two figures departed. (DC 31; Three Children Reuinited)

Sereg

2019-03-28, 08:56 AM

A WIP to show what I have in mind for the White Raven inspiration. Thoughts and advice?? It's been a while since I made a new monster. An adventuring party of these would be quite nasty.

Alabaster Raven
Tiny Magical Beast
Hit Dice:
Initiative:
Speed: 20 ft, Fly 40 ft (Average)
Armour Class:
BAB/Grapple:
Attack:
Full Attack:
Space/Reach: 2 1/2 ft/0 ft
Special Attacks: Manuevers, Swarming Strike
Special Qualities: Bardic Music, Low Light Vision, Marshall Auras, Manuever Resonance
Saves:
Abilities: Str 3, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 7, Wis 8, Cha 16
Skills:
Feats: Weapon Finesse
Environment: Temperature and Cold Hills and Forrests
Organisation: Individual, Pair or Kindness (Flock of 3 to 300)
Challenge Rating: ?
Alignment: Usually Any Lawful
Advancement: As character class
Level Adjustment: ?

You see a flock of snow white birds with sharp claws and beaks.

Alabaster Ravens are the mortal descendants of an avian spirit of cooperation whom the White Raven discipline was based upon. They are typically extroverted, energetic, collectivist, creative and aggressive. They have mercurial moods and are quick to make both friends and enemies, while slow to forgive or betray. For them, first impressions count.

They may choose Bard, Crusader or Marshall as their Favoured Class and typically worship gods with the Air, Community, Law, Protection, Sky, Travel and War domains.

They have a +2 racial bonus on Aid Another, Diplomacy and Perform checks.

Martial Resonance: Their claws count as favoured weapons for the White Raven discipline and they have an Initiator level equal to their Hit Dice.

Bardic Music: They can perform Bardic Music as a Bard of 1/2 their Hit Dice.

Marshall Auras: They begin play with one Major and one Minor Marshall Aura. They gain an additional Minor Aura every 4 Hit Dice and an additional Major Aura every 5 Hit Dice.

Swarming Strike: Anyone taking damage from an Alabaster Raven who has taken damage from a different Alabaster Raven in the same round must make a DC 27 fortitude save or be nauseated as if affected by a swarm's distraction attack. Afterwards, they become immune to that particular alabaster raven's Swarming Strike for one round. The save DC is dexterity based.

Maneuvers: Alabaster Ravens know Bolstering Voice and Leading the Attack. They gain a new White Raven Maneuver known every 2 hit Dice and a new White Raven stance known every 5 Hit Dice.

Elves

2019-03-28, 07:00 PM

@ Sereg: added

@ Sarge: I get the point of the story is he doesn't defend himself/is unprepared, but still seems a bit odd for a dragon god to get killed by randos. Maybe up the threat level, or have the third dragon god be a child/baby, the tiny spark of Io's "innocence" or whatever?

Though that increases the thematic issue of the "fight like a dragon" weapon coming from a dragon who didn't fight...which does seem a little odd.

---

Random idea:
What if we included the psychic disciplines by saying the "secret" behind Reshar's rapid mastery of the nine disciplines was in fact Psychic Reformation?

Does it cheapen it too much? But it's kind of cute since that's the lynchpin of some MO9 builds and TOB was originally going to be psionic IIRC.

He could even have an evil nemesis who did the same thing but with Dark Chaos Shuffle..

khadgar567

2019-03-29, 03:16 AM

Morphic tide

2019-03-30, 04:15 PM

Okay, there's a pretty big problem with the setup as it is currently: There's too much content being planned and discussed for one sourcebook by quite a long ways. Remember, the original went over just nine Disciplines and rather rudimentary setting information and yet turned out to be a hundred and fifty eight pages, with over two hundred Maneuvers and yet we complain about not having enough of them while planning for fourty Disciplines that are larger. I'd say we should focus on hammering out what we want from the initial Age of Warriors "sourcebook" that's an introduction to the Age of Warriors, then subdivide portions of the project into other "sourcebooks" for the setting. The initial one doesn't need to cover everything, but rather set up trends for later development.

1. Should have one subsystem fully theurged with Discipline, feats and so on, maybe one added theurge PRC but not a Discipline, with one or two more given the partial feat-based integration Psionics has with Incarnum and Initiation. I'd go with Incarnum getting this full integration for the lack of resource conflicts, as well as bringing Soulborn to competence, while Psionics and spellcasting would get a bit more feat-based integration than is present in the Book of Nine Swords. This could hold for further "sourcebooks", covering a setting topic and a subsystem to integrate with each one.

2. Have a good amount of book space dedicated to generic Martial support and include Maneuvers that synergize well with this, getting the Fighter to compete with Initiators by being "wide" with these basic functions and a "dabbler" PRC designed specifically for entering Initiation through Martial Study rather than level dips. Rather than just finish replacing the prior classes outright, give some of them a path to "boring" competence that'll let them be on par with Initiation without high optimization. May result in optimized Fighter coming dangerously close to the t2 barrier, but this is fine.

3. Have new base classes cover party roles to make the all-Initiator party fully functional, if complicated to DM mechanical challenges for. This means including proper condition coverage in Disciplines, as well as "party face" effects, which could be split between a few new Maneuvers for White Raven, Divine Spirit and things to include in the Poet's loadout with reworks of the music-based Disciplines to be included. Additionally, a proper Initiator Rogue, rather than the Monk-plus of the Swordsage, could take up the skillmonkey slot to fully cover that party role.

4. Setting information should cover the general way the major, institutional power sources are present in the setting, to set the competence expectations and the general social structure between the newly-prominent Initiation and the older spellcasting institutions, including the Magic of Incarnum subsystem interactions to offer some inter-subsystem support options. Incarnum's integration would include covering its niche role in society, as the setting focuses on Initiation becoming the social mover, so other subsystems should be mentioned primarily in how they interact.

Apologies for the mild project-hijacking (mostly, I just want this thing organized and not a bloated undifferentiated mass. Feel free to come up with another organizational scheme, as long as there is an organizational scheme to break this project into a number of different "sourcebooks" that focus information so it's easy to find the stuff you want), but I've been spoiled by the way people tend to do stuff like this over on Minmax Boards (which I'll readily admit isn't nearly as ordered as what I'm suggesting) and rather dislike the idea of an utterly unsorted campaign setting/subsystem inflation PDF covering dozens of Disciplines, half a dozen Base Classes, who knows how many PRCs and an unknown amount of setting information. If we're going to make a setting out of this, I'd prefer we sort it out so people have one well-labeled place to go for any particular setting topic, campaign element or subsystem they want to dig into and find what they need to play around with that topic, campaign element or subsystem, while the primary sourcebook covers just the general layout of the setting so that DM's can take just that and make campaigns in it.

1. Each "sourcebook" should cover one setting topic, whether campaign-focused like Intrigue or worldbuilding like the Outer Planes, and one subsystem being properly theurged, with two styles of inter-system Discipline, transparency Feats and such, with the setting topic being what the new Disciplines focus on interacting with. Tight design focus should only be confined to the showpieces of the Theurged subsystem and the new Disciplines, with tangential shenanigans being left to flow (or confined to an "index" page of accepted-but-unsorted material. If Psionics and Intrigue are put in the same sourcebook, don't be afraid to agree on sticking barely-related Maneuvers for seemingly-random Disciplines. If we're going to be making Initiation into a subsystem to rival spellcasting, we might as well include our own spell bloat of weird, niche and seemingly pointless Maneuvers to let optimizers and roleplayers have fun with.

2. When a subsystem is covered and needs fixed, do with with variant rules like Spell Recharge and AFCs like the Monk Fighting Styles or Totem Barbarian rather than an overhaul of the system or directly replacing the class. If we want a sourcebook appearance, we need to respect the fact that Wizards never issued genuine class revisions. You'll need to confine new list-widgets (Mysteries, Soulmelds, etc.) to the subsystem's existing method for compatibility, so Shadowcasting would still need to stick to Paths and Truenaming would remain tied to Lexicons, but learning mechanic terminology needs to stay the same to have new list-widgets usable by the original class. We could also have just-for-fun variant rules and AFCs like this for subsystems that don't need fixed, but could be nice to run campaigns with switchups.

3. Theurge Disciplines should come in two general varieties: Direct transparency, where they call in learning mechanics, resources, restrictions or other properties of the other subsystem, and synergy Disciplines that offer simultaneous use, whether explicitly or through action economy, and/or important additional effects. Each Theurge process should ideally have one Discipline that's directly transparent and one Discipline that's synergistic, using the subsets I've described for variety. As an example, Arcane's transparency Discipline could use the Maneuver as the somatic component, requiring Still Spell to use without Initiation and having both Maneuver levels and Spell levels, being balanced as towards the upper end of the Stilled Spell's level. The Maneuver, however, could be used without the spell slot, losing it's Arcane effects. Meanwhile, the synergy Discipline could be about positioning with Thrown weapons, maintaining distance from enemies by both moving the user and interrupting their movement. And messing with other Spellcasters with the extended Opportunity Attack range, of course.

4. Make use of two non-standard Maneuver types: Katas, where a full-round Maneuver is broken down into its component Actions as separate things it allows you to do, giving some vital list-efficient utility to compete with spellcasting while adding a bit more opportunity cost to the system (if your Shadow Hand character relies on a high-level Kata for move-action teleports and their high-DC Strength drain, they have to either use them at the same time or refresh the Maneuver before getting to use both), and Rushes, for the Move Action slot. The immediate example for Rushes is the Shadow Hand teleportation Maneuvers (also pointing out that Maneuver categorization shouldn't be strictly tied to actions, with errata for the "other" categorized Maneuvers to reflect this), while Katas would take up position-setting-attack-plus-rider routines like the infinite-retreat half-ogre Spiked Chain user, Shadow Pounces, ubercharging and so on.
Shadows Seeking Slaughter
Shadow Hand (Kata)
Level: Swordsage 9
Prerequisite: 3 Shadow Hand Maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 Round (divided)
Range: 50 ft./Melee Attack
Target: You/One Enemy Creature
Saving Throw: Reflex/Fortitude Partial

As part of this Maneuver, you first make a Move action, vanishing into shadows that flow toward your desired location with incredible speed, crossing up to 50 ft. in what seems a single moment. If enemies who's Threatened Area contains pass a Reflex save (DC 19 + your Wisdom modifier), they may make a single Attack of Opportunity against you for this movement, but you gain the benefits of Partial Concealment against this attack. Secondly, as an Immediate Action taken before the opponent would make their Opportunity Attack, the shadows twist, a blade lashing out towards the opponent's eyes (or other sensory organ), dealing 3d6 damage on a successful Attack Roll. If they fail a Fortitude Save (DC 19 + your Wisdom modifier), the attack leaves them Blinded until the beginning of their next turn. Finally, as a Standard Action, you make a Melee Attack that deals an extra 5d6 damage and 6 Constitution damage, halved with a successful Fortitude save (DC 19 + your Wisdom modifier).

As with any Kata, the actions can be taken in any order or combination, expending the Maneuver at the end of the round even if some are not taken. If the actions are taken in the order described in the same round and the Immediate Action and Standard Action share a target (decided when the Maneuver is Initiated), the Move Action leaves the enemy target Flatfooted until their next turn if they fail the Reflex save against it, the Immediate Action becomes a Melee Attack and deals 2 Constitution damage on a failed save and the Standard Action deals an extra 4 Constitution damage.

---

So it's essentially Shadow Stride with a Reflex save to permit Opportunity Attacks at the destination, an upgraded Obscuring Shadow Veil and an upgraded Bloodletting Strike. In total the Kata is two Melee Attacks, 8d6 damage, the target becomes Flatfooted and Blinded until their next round and there's 12 Constitution damage, meaning 6 HP per HD (provided they use Con for HP). Not quite a save-or-die, but very, very close to it. For three saves, two Attack roles and devoting the entire round to it, I think this is acceptable, if not underpowered, and the fact that learning it lets you take the actions separately means you get a better Obscuring Shadow Veil as a Counter. If you'd rather use the attack first, then the movement to get away and the Counter to hit whatever enemy's the most troublesome at your new location, you can do that instead for some Con damage on whoever you were at to begin with, repositioning to a different enemy-rich location and blinding one of them.

Another note: Katas can't be recovered until the next round, no matter what you do, because they only get expended at the end of the current one, regardless of how they're used. Little detail in the wording to keep action shenanigans from letting you exploit single-Maneuver recovery for massive action bombs with a decent pack of effects to use it with.

Sgt. Cookie

2019-03-30, 07:14 PM

Y'know, I agree with Morphic.

I think that the easiest way would be to figure out the categories and then divide the disciplines into them.

Off hand, these are the divisions I can come up with:

Before the fall: This would contain things like Scarlet Baruvia or Cthonic Serpent, disciplines that never made it to the temple. This is where we could include information about the temple itself, Reshar and the other nine masters. This is also where the two new Vestiges can be found.

After the fall: This would have things like Bloodstained Gutter or Wyrm's Might. Relatively newer disciplines. This is where we could talk about how the world was affected by the dissemination of martial knowledge.

Initiators In the Outer Planes: Relatively self explanatory. This is where the planar disciplines would be located. We could also include things like outsiders with martial maneuvers. Also we could, in theory, include little tidbits like what happened to the Nine masters' souls after death.

Epic initiators: This is where the epic disciplines would go, as well as other information about epic martial initiators.

Of course, other types or number of divisions are also possible. Such as having a sort of "core" book and more specific things in their own sourcebooks.

Elves

2019-03-30, 08:11 PM

First of all:

Apologies for the mild project-hijacking

No way, thanks for pitching in.

I'm personally only interested in doing one book. If the community does more, I think it would be best to just continue the sequence:

Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords
Tome of Battle II: The Age of Warriors
Tome of Battle III: And so on

Okay, there's a pretty big problem with the setup as it is currently: There's too much content being planned and discussed for one sourcebook by quite a long ways.

E-ink doesn't have printing costs, so length isn't inherently a concern. As long as the book is thematically coherent -- in this case just a straightforward expansion of disciplines -- and the content is up to snuff, there's no real reason to break it into separate volumes. At least up to a certain saturation point, which is where I think we about are.

Instead, it seems like your suggestions about integration with other subsystems would be a good subject for another volume, since that's its own thematically united thing and it frees us to not include psi or incarnum disciplines in this one. (And including theurgy in this volume would only increase bloat.) What do you think?

3. Have new base classes cover party roles to make the all-Initiator party fully functional, if complicated to DM mechanical challenges for. This means including proper condition coverage in Disciplines, as well as "party face" effects, which could be split between a few new Maneuvers for White Raven, Divine Spirit and things to include in the Poet's loadout with reworks of the music-based Disciplines to be included.

Good point. And I have to get around to doing the poet -- to be frank I've been holding out for a better concept but I haven't thought of one.

If we're going to make a setting out of this, I'd prefer we sort it out so people have one well-labeled place to go for any particular setting topic, campaign element or subsystem they want to dig into and find what they need to play around with that topic, campaign element or subsystem, while the primary sourcebook covers just the general layout of the setting so that DM's can take just that and make campaigns in it.

I'm imagining more of a "pseudo-setting". Here's the note I wrote to myself:

This isn’t a full-fledged campaign setting but rather a pseudo-setting.

No map, no proper name like “Faerun”.

But we do assume or assert that these things actually take place in their own setting. Obviously this doesn’t mean martial adepts or the Nine Swords can’t exist in Eberron -- but just like warforged were made for Eberron and are now in every setting, or any number of other transplanted elements, martial adept classes “are from” sword-world.

(And for people who object to the specificity of the Nine Swords fluff, this is even more license to incorporate those classes in a more fluff-agnostic way.)

One Word Summary

If Eberron is “magitech”, FR is “high fantasy”, and Dragonlance is “dragons”, TOB-world is “anime/wuxia”.

But a D&D spin on that. It’s the anime world but it’s actually less cartoony than the other settings.

(While it takes the martial arts heroes and inexplicably supernatural fighting from wuxia, it shouldn’t have any of the melodrama or sappy romance.)

Style Guide

1) Pan-cultural. TOB was cultural fusion; ideally I’d like to go a step beyond that and have cultures which don’t resemble any on Earth, but that’s outside AOW’s scope.

The panculturalism goes unexplained -- we could easily give an explanation like “because teleportation creates integration between distant societies” or “because magic acts as an equalizer”, but instead, it just is that way.

2) The “graphics” are realistic, not stylized. But they’re bright and vivid instead of brown or washed out.

This also applies to what people wear, what buildings look like, and the kind of light used.

If the mortal world feels very immediate, other planes by contrast feel a little more washed out and static: this is where we have the vast vistas and so on.

Important Features of the Setting

1) Exciting new martial renaissance.

2) The relationship between martial characters and casters, with martial characters as underdogs. Casters are scary. Non-casters have to fight with the Sublime Way in order to be somewhat competitive.

Non-adept martial characters are portrayed either as bland and possibly ineffective, or as threatening but rather brutish one-trick-ponies (ie charger/tripper).

If we're going to be making Initiation into a subsystem to rival spellcasting, we might as well include our own spell bloat of weird, niche and seemingly pointless Maneuvers to let optimizers and roleplayers have fun with.

On the second point, totally agreed. Re making it "a subsystem to rival spellcasting", though, if you meant that in terms of power level, I think that's something to explicitly avoid. Let it be its own thing. Balance point T3ish, borderline T2 at most (and yes I see your sig).

4. Make use of two non-standard Maneuver types: Katas
Cool idea but maybe a little too complicated?

----

Re cutting down on content: besides possibly sloughing theurge content if that's going to be another volume, the easiest way to reduce content would be getting rid of the Machinist, which is 4 discs and 1 base class, but that's kind of sad since I like the symmetry of Animist and Machinist.

Moreso than discs it could be smart to cut down on PRCs.

I've cut some, which brings us to 31 PrCs. An additional 7 are cross-subsystem so could be shifted if there's going to be a separate theurgy volume.

Sgt. Cookie

2019-04-02, 08:11 AM

No more Draconic Partisan then? That's fine. Means I don't have to put the work in to modify it to work with Wyrm's Might. :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, at the very least, it would probably be worthwhile having all the Epic ToB stuff in a separate document, since for most people epic levels aren't something they plan for.

Elves

2019-04-04, 12:06 AM

Notes on the bard class:

First of all, may very well just dish it, since bard is a fine class and has good splat support.

On the musical theme, I've done parts of two disciplines. One is themed around sonic martial arts moves. Two example maneuvers:

Vibroacoustic Strike
Drastic Vibration 1
strike
standard

Your strike delivers a concentrated burst of vibration that damages the target’s heart and organs. Make an attack and add 1d6 sonic damage. This increases to 2d6 at level 5 and every five levels thereafter, up to 5d6 at 20th.

This extra sonic damage doesn’t affect creatures that lack vital organs.
Soundsteal
Drastic Vibration 3
counter
immediate action
range: 10ft/IL

You snatch a distant sound into your open palm. Rather than emanating, the vibrations whizz toward you, where you hold them as a concentrated orb of kinetic energy.

Once you've snatched the sound, you may release it as a swift action. Instead of releasing immediately, you may continue to hold it as a swift action so long as you have a hand free and don’t fail a Concentration check.

The exact effect of this maneuver varies depending on the sound stolen:

Mundane sound or speech: Upon release you may either reproduce the sound, now centered on you, or let the vibrations dissipate in a meaningless whoosh. This is just as loud as the original sound, but the timbre of the sound (voice, exact words, metallic clang, etc) becomes indistinguishable. You can’t make it sound like something else.

Verbal spell component: The caster makes a Reflex save to rapidly blurt out the verbal component again before the spell is lost; otherwise they lose it. Ref DC 10+IL. Release has no effect: a small whoosh or a decayed echo of the sound.

Spell or effect that deals sonic damage: The effect is cancelled. Releasing replicates the effect. It can’t be released harmlessly.

Sound-based spell or effect that doesn’t deal sonic damage: The effect is cancelled if instantaneous, or if ongoing, suppressed for one round. Releasing replicates the effect, including original CL (duration 1 round if ongoing).

There is one exception — the notorious spell Wail of the Banshee. Soundsteal makes you the sole target of this spell, even if you’re outside its range. You take a -4 penalty on your save.

You must hear a sound and/or see it being made in order to target it. For example, if you see someone whispering something you can steal the whisper and release it next to your ear, hearing it yourself.

And stuff like "Meteoric Soundwave".

Second, a larger discipline themed around playing music. Possibly with different maneuver categories -- atonal, tonal, rhythmic, and maybe raga -- but that's likely too complicated. Sample maneuver names: Sword Chord, Counterpoint, Stance of the Building Raga, Stance of the Forsaken Triad, Stance of the Tonal Center, Swordrhythm Stance, Tone Row Technique, Serialist Reflex, Micropolyphonic Ghost Chorus, Stance of Ultimate Resolution, and obviously you could go on in this vein for a while, and that's even before you get to the more flowery names.

But as fun as naming things can be -- and you could give the TOB-ification treatment to anything -- I'm feeling like TOB is not the best place to do "magical music", because magical music is cooler when it's more freeform and imaginative and so on, not discrete in the way TOB maneuvers are. Also because it feels kind of trivializing to the function of actual music to make it have to be about fighting, whereas embellishing martial arts to be mystical and ultrapotent just makes them cooler at what they already do. If that makes sense.

So I'm going to try doing it, but with the musical element removed and left to the bard. Instead I want to refocus on the concept of "poet", with fantastical and poetic martial abilities. Conjuring the echo of a fictional character to fight beside you with a mystic visualization exercise, and other fun powers like that.

If this doesn't pan out I'm fine just cutting the class.

DracoDei

2019-04-24, 04:02 PM

Huh... and here I was coming here to let you know I was still alive, and I find no new messages in this thread.

Anyway, I may continue to be slow in my work for this thread.

Elves

2019-04-24, 04:15 PM

I've been busy the past 3 weeks, but I have chipped away at some things. Here's a collection of new Shadow Hand maneuvers I just posted (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?586545-New-Shadow-Hand-maneuvers-(PEACH)); also have Iron Heart and Stone Dragon but they're mostly other peoples'.

Going to do the skill tricks later today. They're just skill tricks but with the requirement of knowing x maneuver/stances from x discipline. I think these are a better way to add utility than feats, ACFs or automatic discipline benefits.

The new disciplines will have some utility functions baked into their combat maneuvers, so fortunately no need to give them skill tricks.

Here's a brainstorm list of possible skill tricks based on the discussions from earlier:

DW
Fire Lore (k: history)
Mirage Oasis (disguise)
Magic Sand (craft: alchemy)

DS
Faith Healing (k: religion)
Pray for Guidance (k: religion)
Spiritual Ally (k: the planes)

DM
Lucid Interrogation (sense motive)
Meditation of Clarity (concentrate)
Metacognition (autohypnosis)
Mind as Prism (concentrate)

IH
I Made it Myself (cr: blacksmith)
Iron Heart Smithcraft (cr: blacksmith)
Weapons Buff (martial lore)

SH
Shadow Grasp (sleight of hand)
Shadow Puppet (spellcraft)
Shadow Fog (craft: alchemy)
Umbral Insinuation (bluff)

SS
Underestimate Me (bluff)
Canny Monkey (appraise)
Gloaming Speech (diplo)

SD
Earthsculpting Meditation (arch&eng)
Stone Dragon Laborer (any craft)

TC
Bind Up the Kill (use rope)
Tiger Claw Huntcraft (prof. hunter)
Tiger Crosses River (swim)
>something for Survival

WR
Bread for Valhalla (? cooking? - heroes' feast equivalent)
Self Comes Second (diplo)
Strategic Brilliancy (Martial Lore)
Troupe of Retainers (diplo)

Also coming soon are edited versions of a couple homebrew disciplines. Have a rough version of poet, too rough to have its own thread but I'll post it in this one.

----

FYI, if anyone new stops by, I *have* been updating the Task Board -- second post down on Page 1. You're very much invited to take a stab at stuff there even if you haven't posted.

Besides the skill tricks and expansions of existing disciplines, the current to-do list is:

- 12 legacy weapons

- a PrC for the Warlord class

- shield-using discipline

- disciplines: a conversion or two, a completion or two, and a bunch of editing

- fluff, which I've done some of

Nice but not necessary
- the soulknife PRC we were discussing earlier
- an artificer/TOB PRC

Then a boatload of Q&A, probably done over a beta phase of some sort.

Elves

2019-04-24, 04:54 PM

Instead of posting the whole rough draft here's just the gist.

Poet class overview

Concept
Sublime poets are the vessels of a Muse, whose nature depends on the setting and the character. It could mean they channel the power of tutelary goddesses like the Greeks had; at its most grounded it could be stretched to simply describe their unconscious faculties. Somewhere in between, and by default, it’s the same sort of wellspring of extraordinary potential by which other martial adepts fuel their implausibilities: “the awful shadow of some unseen Power”. It could also be some kind of mental gremlin, sort of Naruto-ish. Only by channeling this Sublime Muse does the poet gain access to martial maneuvers.

- No musical abilities because that's the bard's shtick

Combat
1. Maneuvers from Divine Muse, Dream Battle, Eloquent Speech and Infinite Shore (names likely changed, disciplines revised/compressed)
2. Muse provides 1/day self-help abilities
3. Buffing via performance or written material provides limited use of maneuvers to allies
4. Imaginary Friend provides the benefit of a Leadership cohort. You summon a character or allegorical/symbolic character from your own material. They only stay for a short time and you have limited summons/day, but the upside is that you get to keep a whole stable of cohorts and choose which one to summon each time.
5. Capstone lets you summon several imaginary friends.

- They have to be careful of the new condition Reality Shock, which is when their fantasies get stripped away.

Utility
1. Wordsmith lets you serve as party face by substituting Perform (Oratory) checks for Bluff/Diplo/Intimidate. You can use Craft (written composition) and Profession (Poet/Writer/whatever) instead in situations where you can write a prepared speech, or eg writing a letter.

Alternate Class Feature
Warrior-Poet ACF makes you primarily a warrior, boosting HD&BAB at the cost of class features.

Feat: Sword Whisperer lets you whisper/chant/sing to your weapon outside of combat, providing bonuses in combat later.

Morphic tide

2019-04-24, 05:44 PM

...I'll note that the TOB Soulknife conversion link in the Task Board post is actually dead. And the use of rewrites for what is intended to be a pseudo-splatbook seems wrong to me, in general. Though the idea of Swordsage getting a useful mid-combat Refresh mechanic does interest me... Perhaps having an AFC that lets you re-ready Maneuvers belonging to a Discipline when you switch to a Stance from that Discipline, with the tradeoff being a few less Maneuvers Readied? Less on-hand, but more able to "discard and draw", as well as being able to keep fighting for longer. Also a small touch of fluff tie-in about active use of more Disciplines, possibly having a similar thing for the Discipline Focus features to have a "wide" Swordsage AFC set.

The Skill Tricks for only the original Nine Disciplines to offer them good utility has a nice side effect of keeping them different in the Age of Warriors. They're old, have been worked over for centuries, are present in every academy. Perhaps have most of the new Disciplines be slightly smaller than the Nine are in ToB proper, while the Nine are given more Maneuvers that double-down on their core themes instead of spreading out into an arsenal unto themselves like the newer Disciplines do.

Elves

2019-04-24, 09:14 PM

...I'll note that the TOB Soulknife conversion link in the Task Board post is actually dead. And the use of rewrites for what is intended to be a pseudo-splatbook seems wrong to me, in general.

With the exception of truenamer, agreed. Removed.

Perhaps having an AFC that lets you re-ready Maneuvers belonging to a Discipline when you switch to a Stance from that Discipline, with the tradeoff being a few less Maneuvers Readied?

Good idea, I could see this being fluffed as another thing for "focused" adepts (since it's more effective the more mvs from a single disc you have readied).

One of the main themes here is options both for people who want to try many discs and those who want to focus on one.

Perhaps have most of the new Disciplines be slightly smaller than the Nine are in ToB proper.

I'm definitely conscious of length, the big investment is including a disc in the first place so once they're in they should have as many as they need to function. Going for about the size of TOB ones; the additional maneuvers for the 9 will make them bigger than the new ones.

DracoDei

2019-04-24, 11:46 PM

You mentioned Stone Dragon maneuvers. I plan to have 1 for every level, despite having only posted the first three so far. The other six are basically already mostly written up, just not posted in an obvious way (or at all).

I'm also thinking about doing a 1st and 8th level maneuver.

1st would share the maneuvers "stand still for longer to gain bigger bonuses" except they would effect your AoOs and wouldn't reset on use. Maxima might be 3*IL damage, and Con. Mod. to-hit.

8th would be called Scorn Sky, Embrace Earth. It would prevent flight (it doesn't work if you have a fly speed, levitate or feather fall, and gaining one cancels the stance, even if an enemy casts it on you and you fail the save), and maybe slow you like you were wearing heavy armor, give lightning resistance, maybe acid vulnerability, and most importantly GIVES YOU AN EARTH ELEMENTAL'S STONE SWIM ABILITY (or maybe just meld into stone, which requires you to stay adjacent to a surface)! ... maybe give it a 3 round cool-down both ways between having a flight speed and when you can be in the stance? In that case an offensively cast fly would immediately cancel the stance, but you wouldn't actually get the benefits for 3 rounds.

Elves

2019-04-24, 11:59 PM

In addition to your maneuvers, I have Garryl's two rushes. Then I'm doing two stances. One to grant burrow+tremorsense. The other to allow flying Stone Dragon. The concept is pretty goofy -- air-surfing on a solid object so that you still have solid ground to balance on -- but it's the best way I could think of to satisfy the requirement. (The main alternative would be, like, having spikes of earth shoot up from the ground so that you can at least reach things up in the air, even if not move around up there, but that only works in certain environments.)

Then, a couple strikes with actual maneuver requirements to reward people who focus on the discipline. Lastly, a counter to do the damage reduction thing right.

Elves

2019-04-25, 09:08 PM

Going to post the skill tricks, but I'd like some advice with this specific one:

Metacognition
Prerequisites: Concentrate 5 ranks, 1 Diamond Mind maneuver or stance
Benefit: You gain Autohypnosis as a class skill. With a DC 20+1/2 IL Autohypnosis check, you may change your readied maneuvers as an [x] action.

If you have more than one initiator class, choose which pool of maneuvers to change. Only classes that grant Diamond Mind are eligible.
----

The question is:

Should this also refresh maneuvers? Swordsages do deserve that is this a crappy way to give it to them?

Edit: never mind, my reading of Adaptive Style was wrong.

Sgt. Cookie

2019-04-26, 07:31 AM

Eh. Swordsages already have Adaptive Style which (it is commonly agreed upon) lets them refresh maneuvers. Since this is, basically, Adaptive Style in Skill Trick form, I'd say it's probably fine to refresh. As all it does is change away from a Feat tax to a (Much more expendable) skill point tax.

Elves

2019-04-26, 10:35 AM

It's more than 2 skill points because you have to invest Autohypnosis, but yes, that's the point, skill point equivalent.

Ooh, I didn't realize people read the rules such that changing your readied maneuvers is inseparable from having the new ones readied -- I assumed slots that were expended would remain expended when using AS. But I guess that could only be the case if the normal, 5-minute routine for changing your readied maneuvers also required a refresh action (or in the swordsage's case, a bunch of them) afterward. Never mind, then.

DracoDei

2019-04-26, 01:32 PM

In addition to your maneuvers, I have Garryl's two rushes. Then I'm doing two stances. One to grant burrow+tremorsense.
Hmm... if you do that I might need a clause on my Scorn the Sky, Embrace the Earth (name might not match what I said before, I am still trying to decide on the exact way to phrase it) Stance that when you take mine you have the OPTION to trade out yours for any other 1st level Stone Dragon stance. Might even make it automatic if I decide to include tremorsense and everything else you end up putting into it... actually, the ability to leave a tunnel for others would be enough that some characters wouldn't trade it out.

The other to allow flying Stone Dragon. The concept is pretty goofy -- air-surfing on a solid object so that you still have solid ground to balance on -- but it's the best way I could think of to satisfy the requirement. (The main alternative would be, like, having spikes of earth shoot up from the ground so that you can at least reach things up in the air, even if not move around up there, but that only works in certain environments.)
I actually LIKE the idea of some disciplines having "Achilles's Heels", it gives the idea that there is no one perfect technique and that Reshar was a genius for breaking with the competitive and closed-minded nature of martial practitioners before then to unite them all so that he could create composite styles that had ways of covering for weaknesses.

Sidenote/emphasis: You will note that Scorn the Sky, Embrace the Earth takes the theme of NOT flying and runs with it whole-heartedly. This was a specific thematic intention on my part. Not to say that you couldn't have a split of philosophies necessarily... shoot, we could decide to run with with the theme of opposing philosophies/mindsets* and say that anyone who learns one of the 8th level stances in question can never use the other even from a martial script or Stone Dragon Belt and certainly can't learn it.
*That might or might not have the utmost respect for the other one in the case of individual practitioners.

Getting back to why I am raising a small cautionary flag about your "flying rock" stance: The Master of One PrC* specifically has ways of removing those weaknesses, which is thematic and answers the design goal of "being able to diversify or specialize as you choose". Having a defining class feature get rendered semi-obsolete as soon as you hit 15th level seems sorta a bummer. Wild idea: Maybe give Stone Dragon Masters of One that stance for free** at IL 16th (or 15, or 17...) if they have maxed out the PrC? They take "bringing the earth with them where-ever they go" from the spiritual/mental/philosophical realm into a very physical fact!
*It is on the list of PrCs that made it in.
**If that is too much, say that they can spend a maneuver-known slot to learn it, instead of a stance-known slot. Not free, but "cheaper".

Then, a couple strikes with actual maneuver requirements to reward people who focus on the discipline.
You mean other than my incredibly niche Faultline and Quake maneuvers? Yeah, probably a good idea!

Lastly, a counter to do the damage reduction thing right.
That could be good. Two very minor qualms and a third slightly larger one with making it a counter.
1.) Making it a Counter decreases the tactical forethought required in that you don't have to sacrifice using a different strike to anticipate danger.
2.) The idea of having to be aggressive to be defensive, and the added element of risk (and incentive to go after a lesser threat, with a lower AC) might be seen as a loss.
3.) It sounds like you PROBABLY intend to make it only work against one attack. Consider having it last until the start of your next turn to give the same vibe of "only a mighty strike can break a stone, a hundred blows by a hundred weaklings do me no harm" vibe that I get from the X Bones line. If you want to get complicated then give the option at the time you initiate it to have a larger amount of DR against that single attack, or a smaller amount that lasts until the start of your next turn.

One way to split the difference on points 1 and 2 would be to fix the numerical scaling of the amount (obviously!o You were going to do this anyway.), and make it a BOOST that grants the DR if you hit with your first attack that round (and doesn't do anything if you don't make an attack). In other words it would turn any other strike (or even simple attack/full-attack) into X Bones.

Going to post the skill tricks, but I'd like some advice with this specific one:

Metacognition
Prerequisites: Concentrate 5 ranks, 1 Diamond Mind maneuver or stance
Benefit: You gain Autohypnosis as a class skill. With a DC 20+1/2 IL Autohypnosis check, you may change your readied maneuvers as an [x] action.

If you have more than one initiator class, choose which pool of maneuvers to change. Only classes that grant Diamond Mind are eligible.
----

The question is:

Should this also refresh maneuvers? Swordsages do deserve that is this a crappy way to give it to them?

Edit: never mind, my reading of Adaptive Style was wrong.
Not sure why you seem to be dropping the idea of that particular skill trick entirely, rather than just changing it so it refreshes maneuvers, but I will say that wording how to change maneuvers prepared and NOT have it refresh your maneuvers would be tricky, but not impossible. It sounds like the sort of thing I would do, and then people would complain about my having "over complicated" things.

If you are worried about the skill trick meaning nobody would want to take adaptive style (but might feel they had to if starting at level 1), then you could always increase the Concentration requirement... MAYBE give 1 or 2 free ranks in Auto-Hypnosis to make up for it, although by 5th level if you have 5 ranks in Concentration as a Swordsage, you might as well have it maxed and take Mind Over Body, which is "(Don't) throw me in that briar patch!" stuff.

Speaking of adding complexity (in this case to allow more tactical thought on the player's part): One thing I would say is that you should maybe allow them to voluntarily reduce their IL, but only if the only maneuvers they end up with readied are ones they they would meet the IL requirement with that lower IL (could probably be phrased better, especially since it means there is no reason to ever use an even numbered IL, nor an IL above 17, perhaps barring Epic Level maneuvers (if those require a scaling IL). If you want to get even more fine-grained (including bringing even ILs back into the picture) you could say that any maneuvers prepared in that way have their IL reduced to the IL you used to set the DC. Of course, MOST maneuvers don't scale with IL, so...

Elves

2019-04-26, 02:19 PM

I think a stance is a good way to do Stone Dragon flight, because then using it entails giving up other stance benefits, which is a cost that only heavy Stone Dragon users will want to pay -- and they'll only want to use it when needed. It also gives the rare opportunity for tactically switching stances mid-fight if you need to get airborne.

In that case, the Master of One ability frees up a stance slot, so it's still a great feature.

The image of flying on a boulder is cool and could be a good utility maneuver with full-round activation. For the stance though I'm going to dish the sky-surfing thing and just go with a bland "Stance of Sky Leverage".

As a note, IMO, Stone Dragon shouldn't be Avatar earthbending; the point is that you draw strength from the ground, and use it for leverage, not that you're an elemental caster. The supernatural maneuvers should be rare and not overly dramatic.

DracoDei

2019-04-26, 05:27 PM

I think a stance is a good way to do Stone Dragon flight, because then using it entails giving up other stance benefits,
Except that every other flight stance ALSO takes up a slot, and IIRC has a limitation on top of that. Granted Rising Pheonix has some fire damage, but the altitude limit seems like a major nerf. It might get you out of medium and smaller people's reach (can't remember how high the limit is) and it definitely can negate some types of terrain, but other than that... As for Balance on the Sky it requires you to have a hand free. There is a reason why "Sword and Board" is a very bad mechanical choice for most characters until and unless you get an Animated Shield, and this doesn't even get you an AC bonus. Is there some third flight stance I am forgetting in ToB? Or are you looking at a homebrewed discipline for that? Or was your thinking "most martial adepts should be able to fly eventually, and Stone Dragon is the discipline that is the most common"? (Not sure if that premise is true when Homebrew classes and disciplines are factored in, but it sounds plausible.)
:
So... I think you need a drawback. 20' speed (edit: and "can't run", just for flavor) would be thematic. Dropping the maneuverability a grade also gives the "slow and ponderous" feel, but if it drops to Average make sure you specify you DON'T have a minimum speed. MAYBE disallow full-attacking while in the stance, but probably not. Going so far as to require a move action (or full round if you want to double-move) to move or simply maintain the stance would be even more extreme.

which is a cost that only heavy Stone Dragon users will want to pay -- and they'll only want to use it when needed. It also gives the rare opportunity for tactically switching stances mid-fight if you need to get airborne.

In that case, the Master of One ability frees up a stance slot, so it's still a great feature.
You seem pretty set on giving the discipline that seems most opposed to flight a flight Stance, but if you just want to get around the limitation at the cost of a Stance, consider a lower level one that simply removes that limitation.

The image of flying on a boulder is cool and could be a good utility maneuver with full-round activation. For the stance though I'm going to dish the sky-surfing thing and just go with a bland "Stance of Sky Leverage".

As a note, IMO, Stone Dragon shouldn't be Avatar earthbending; the point is that you draw strength from the ground, and use it for leverage, not that you're an elemental caster. The supernatural maneuvers should be rare and not overly dramatic.
Both flight and causing earthquakes that fill an area with flying bits of stone seem pretty dramatic to me. So how to you mean?

I agree with "rare" though.

Sereg

2019-04-27, 09:20 AM

Okay. I promised to work on a battlefield fey race?

Here's the WIP:

Warborn:

In mighty clashes between armies, the land itself absorbs the violence, altering it's nature. In response, it births one or more fey creatures called warborn. These warborn are themselves capable of breeding more warborn.

Personality:

Warborn are wild thrillseekers who prefer action and adventure to words and contemplation. At least, in general. They are tied to the action, emotion and adrenaline of the battles from which they descend, making them eager to re-experience such events, but they have a fair amount of variety between them. They often have absorbed pieces of the mentality of both sides of the battle which spawned them, resulting in a lot of internal and external conflict, but also differences between warborn from different battlefields. In addition, all warborn are tied to a specific martial discipline at birth, and while they may focus on a different discipline or even abandon the martial way later in life, their birth discipline does tend to affect their personalities, such as the hyper and fidgety Desert Wind born, the self-righteous but protective Devoted Spirit born, the calculating Diamond Mind born and the savage Tiger Claw born.

Physical Description:

Warborn tend to resemble tall, muscular amalgams of the races that participated in the battle that spawned them, with some obvious differences. Firstly, they are all medium, regardless of their ancestor races. More obviously, they have blood red skin with patterns and textures resembling armour, their ears are long and have sharp points, and they have multi-coloured hair which flows in a non-existant breeze like a war-banner.

Alignment:

The alignment of warborn varies wildly based on the traits they have absorbed from their parent races. As wild lovers of conflict, however, chaos and evil are more common.

Lands:

Warborn are naturally wanderers. Those that stick to one site tend to either guard the battlefield that spawned them or seek places of conflict, such as large, divided cities and borders between hostile countries. They are also often found acting as mercenaries or soldiers.

Religion:

Warborn tend to follow deities with war or destruction in their portfolio, and occasionally the more brutal nature deities. They also often follow the deities of their parent armies, which tends to result in them serving multiple, enemy deities. This results in further internal conflict and makes them behave unusually compared to other members of their religions.

Language:

Warborn speak Common, Sylvan and usually learn the languages of their parent races. It is also common for them to learn and liberally use insults, swear words and battlecries from languages in which they are not fluent.

Adventurers:

As natural thrill-seeking, conflict-obsessed wanderers, warborn are drawn to the adventuring lifestyle, and their most common NPC class is warrior. All full-bab classes tend to be appealing to warborn, but a couple are especially common. The nature of a warborn's creation makes ties to a natural environment and hatred of a group normal, making Rangers common. Those same ties to nature and wild emotions also make many become barbarians. The same emotions and ties to a martial discipline also encourages many to become warblades. Clerics exist, but are outnumbered by Paladins and Crusaders. Similarly, those interested in arcane magic are more likely to perdue the warmage class than that of the wizard or sorcerer.

Medium Fey
+2 Dex, +2 Str, -2 Cha, -2 Wis Warborn are strong and agile, but impulsive and aggressive.

Speed: 30 ft

Size: Medium

Manuever Skill: Warborn gain a +2 racial bonus on skill checks used as part of a manuever.

Martial Talent: Warborn have an initiator level equal to their character level.

Martial Might: Warborn gain a +1 bonus to the DC of Wisdom and Charisma based manuever.

Discipline Connection: Warborn start with a free 1st level manuever and a free 1st level stance from the same discipline.

Automatic Languages: Common and Sylvan. Bonus Languages: Any except for secret languages.

Favoured Class: Ranger, Barbarian or Warblade

Level Adjustment: +0

Elves

2019-04-27, 03:14 PM

if you just want to get around the limitation at the cost of a Stance, consider a lower level one that simply removes that limitation.

Yes, that's what I meant. This also lets it be a 1st or 3rd level stance.

Re Sereg: How about making these a non-psionic take on Maenads? The psionic version of them is honestly underwhelming both appearance and flavorwise.

Hm, reading the race I'm reminded of how weird the 3e devs' insistence on abillity score penalties was. I guess that's out of our scope to correct though.

------------

Skill tricks thread.
(http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?586737-Skill-Tricks-for-Martial-Adepts-(PEACH)&p=23872455#post23872455)

DracoDei

2019-04-27, 04:14 PM

Warborn:
I only skimmed it, but:
Consider giving them +1 to the DCs of Wisdom and Charisma based maneuvers. That way a player can feel comfortable picking Crusader or Swordsage instead of only Warblade. I'd give parallel examples in homebrew classes but I don't remember those well enough.

Yes, that's what I meant. This also lets it be a 1st or 3rd level stance.
Oh... well, I'd be sad I misunderstood, except my inner annoyance at what I THOUGHT you were trying to say was enough that I had ideas for Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw flight maneuvers... actually, two different variations for Tiger Claw, one of which was going to be blatantly copy-pasting someone else's work and then (with credit of course).

Going to note the general ideas down, mostly so I don't forget, despite the fact they are probably too out of theme to be worth including in those disciplines.

The Diamond Mind one was basically "Having mastered Time, you now bend Gravity to your focused mind. Unfortunately, the slightest lapse of focus will result in a plummet. You must make concentration checks for damage as if this stance were an 8th level arcane spell. However your focus is not so easily broken. Add your ranks in the Concentration skill to these checks twice, rather than just once."

The more original Tiger Claw one was "I jump so good I can not only get hang-times of 15 seconds, but I can also change direction in mid-air."
More specifically:
Leap to the Fray
"In order to enter this stance your space must contain a surface big enough for two of your feet (or your contact patch if you are a snake/slug/ooze/vehicle/etc shaped rather than having feet) and strong enough to support your weight. Note that this could be a cliff or tree branch to your side as you free-fall, rather than a floor you are standing on. Make a jump check. You gain flight with a speed equal to triple your land (or swim) speed with Good maneuverability as long as you remain in this stance. After your check result divided by 15 rounded down rounds, or at the end of any of your turns where you do not make an attack on an animate foe, you exit this stance. When entering this stance and NOT any others at the same time as a swift action* you may also initiate a Tiger Claw boost as a free action. The boost must be readied and is expended as usual.
*Boiler plate needed for Warblade's capstone, as well as my "Sublime Form Master".

The less original one was to steal the rules from "Warriors and Wuxia" on these forums (actually the second time I have done that, although the first time was just saying "go look at these rules, then include them if you like this larger theme of house-rules I'm suggesting here". I think my thread was called "Special Snowflake Christmas Trees", and it is in my extended signature. From there anyone who cares enough could find "Warriors and Wuxia".

Skill tricks thread.
(http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?586737-Skill-Tricks-for-Martial-Adepts-(PEACH)&p=23872455#post23872455)
Noted. Might look. No promises (I make no promises about a lot of things).

Sereg

2019-04-27, 11:31 PM

Thanks. Added he DC adjustment.

I actually did notice the similarity with maenads, but I prefer them as their own thing. Also, I actually kind of like maenads and wouldn't want to take away what makes them them.

Elves

2019-05-02, 11:21 PM

SD + IH maneuvers up. Same thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?586545-New-Tome-of-Battle-maneuvers-for-Age-of-Warriors-(PEACH)). Rest too before long.

Sereg

2019-05-04, 06:40 AM

So, I was wondering about some martial undead. Maybe a template for undead that have their skin tatood or bones carved with martial scripts to give them manuevers. A haunted suit of armour. A possessed weapon that fights alone, as weilded by an incorporeal spirit or which takes over its wielder. Maybe a martial equivalent of a lich that uses a weapon as a phylactery.

DracoDei

2019-05-04, 09:53 AM

I'll try to give feedback on those maneuvers... still need to do that pacifist discipline too...

Depression sucks. (I freely and without shame admit I see a psychologist and am on medication. I hope this will serve as an example to anyone else with psychological problems.)

I have all but the 9th level Faultline maneuver posted, and I THINK I have complete copies of the rest of the Volcano maneuvers in a text file on my computer I can post.

So, I was wondering about some martial undead. Maybe a template for undead that have their skin tatood or bones carved with martial scripts to give them manuevers. A haunted suit of armour. A possessed weapon that fights alone, as weilded by an incorporeal spirit or which takes over its wielder. Maybe a martial equivalent of a lich that uses a weapon as a phylactery.

This will be less than helpful, but I seem to remember seeing something like this somewhere on these boards... maybe even linked or written on in the original AoWs thread(s)?

Elves

2019-05-04, 12:58 PM

So that you don't have to comb through them all, here are some specific ones I have balance questions about:

#1 - what level should this be?
Hampering Dark
Shadow Hand (Boost)
Level: 1 (or 2, or 3?)
Action: Swift
Area: 30 foot radius, centered on you
Maintain: Swift

All areas of darkness or shadow become difficult terrain. All areas of low light cost +50% to enter, like moving diagonally does normally (but moving diagonally still costs the same).

At IL 15 the area doubles to 60ft.
The 8th level Shadow Hand stance in TOB is underwhelming so I made this, with some pseudo-tanking capability. Is it balanced?
Moon-Guided Shadowstance
Shadow Hand (Stance)
Level: 8
Mv prereq: 4

Your body phases in and out of existence as it blinks through the shadow plane. This stance is sometimes called Shadow Blink because it's similar to the blink spell, except slower, more controlled, and shadowy rather than ethereal.

Each turn, the benefits provided by the stance change. You may choose which phase to start in when you enter the stance the first time in an encounter. If you re-enter the stance later during the same encounter, the cycle continues from where you left off.

Full Moon - +2 reflection bonus to AC (which is like a deflection bonus, but is a separate category so as to stack with them), and gain the effects of a restoration spell.
Crescent Moon - concealment
New Moon - total concealment
Then Crescent Moon again, then Full, Crescent, New, Crescent, etc.

In addition, you gain syzygy benefits:

Eclipse Cover: If you are part of a straight, unobstructed line between an ally and an enemy, that enemy cannot target that ally, or any other allies or squares located directly behind you in a straight line, regardless of size or reach. Line and chain effects stop at you, and you provide a penumbra of total cover from missiles and instantaneous area attacks in a straight line behind you. However, allies behind you can still be affected by eg a fireball centered off to the side, or something falling from above.

You need not be adjacent to the enemy or ally(s) affected by this, so long as the line is unobstructed. If facing a large or larger opponent, the line must pass through the center of their (horizontal, 2-dimensional) area. You can provide multiple lines of Eclipse Cover at once, if applicable.

Blood Moon: If you are part of a straight, unobstructed line in which a single ally is blocking you from an enemy, you glow with a dim red cast or aura and gain +1 to hit and +5 damage on all attacks so long as you remain in their penumbra. Their penumbra of anger extends 30ft, plus or minus 10ft per size category away from medium. This benefit stacks for every such penumbra you are in, but can only be applied once per ally. You don’t gain penumbra benefits from an ally small enough to co-occupy your square (ie tiny or smaller).
Lastly, it seems like this stance would become mandatory for unarmed fighting and that may not be a good thing:
Earthstrength Brawler
Stone Dragon (Stance)
Level: 5
Mv prereq: 3
Initiation action: Swift
Personal

All your unarmed attacks are made as with the Earthstrength Smash maneuver, but they only take standard actions, as normal.

Earthstrength Smash
Stone Dragon (Strike)
Level: 1
Mv prereq: 1
Initiation action: Full round action
Range: Melee
Target: One creature, object or surface

Make a single unarmed attack. This attack is treated as made with a heavy two-handed weapon (1.5 your strength bonus to damage and you can Power Attack with it for 2x returns) and bypasses hardness. Instead you take damage equal to the object’s hardness. You can use this maneuver to make a Sunder attempt, but you provoke as normal unless you have Improved Sunder. Furthermore, you can only sunder objects steady, solid, and either broad or brittle enough to punch apart: a shield or breastplate, for example, but not a sword someone's wielding.

So, I was wondering about some martial undead. Maybe a template for undead that have their skin tatood or bones carved with martial scripts to give them manuevers. A haunted suit of armour. A possessed weapon that fights alone, as wielded by an incorporeal spirit or which takes over its wielder. Maybe a martial equivalent of a lich that uses a weapon as a phylactery.

I particularly like the idea of martial vampires, not the Chinese style ones, just vampires with swords and form-fitting black robes or ninja gear. Death knights are typically the martial counterpart to liches, so it might be worth restatting that template.

Beyond that, anything can be easily TOB-ified with Martial Study, Martial Stance, or martial adept class levels, so there's no need to do a TOB spin on every creature. I specifically left out Demented One's "grave troopers" for this reason -- just give skeletons Martial Study or a warblade level.

Depression sucks.

With you there. Fortunately, my own delay with this right now is just that I have other things to get done.

In the meantime, here's a fun, cheesy take on the setting's version of warforged. Crunch tba.
Cred to this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?232752-Masters-of-the-Nine-Swords-OOC) I stumbled on through Google.

The sparforged are intelligent golems created to be martial arts masters. They can process and run martial scripts, which are fed into their chassis. Nine sparforged were originally created, each one shaped to be perfect for using a single discipline, and they served as the Temple of Nine Swords’ training dummies and occasional security force. Two of the sparforged died during the Temple’s fall, but the rest, since their machinery is much more durable than mortal bodies, are still around.

One of Nine is a fusion machine who breathes fire and has flamethrowers built into the palms of his hands. He's made of refractory ceramics. [ok too cheesy]

Two of Nine glows out the eyes and through the chinks with spiritual power, and frequently hovers above the ground.

Four of Nine is made of magically strengthened steel, which is engraved with intricate designs in gold, and his eyes glow red. One of the most famous sparforged, he reclaimed and took up the Iron Heart sword after the Temple of Nine Swords fell. He’s now Master of Autumn at the Temple of Seasons.

Five of Nine is a small, agile machine with mithral plating on a light build. Dwarf-height but slighter, it can choose to count as either Medium or Small whenever it wants.

Six of Nine is a notorious machine of shadow, made of black adamant and wreathed in and emanating shadow energy. His notoriety is because, fighting on the side of the invaders, he ambushed and killed both Three of Nine and Nine of Nine during the ill-starred battle for the Temple. The surviving sparforged still fear and await him.

Seven of Nine is a bulky, Large-sized machine plated in smooth stone.

Eight of Nine is a savage crazy leaping berserking machine, stylized with an ornate metal tiger head, who’s now a senior master at the Temple of the Unconquered Sun. Like Six of Nine, he left the Temple of Nine Swords with his discipline’s master and fought against the Temple when it fell. During the battle he tore dozens of students to shreds before the Diamond Master chased him off with the adamantine sword she’d had made to replace Supernal Clarity. For battle he usually has himself painted in either camo—for ambushes—or in aggressive stripes and warpaint. Instead of holding weapons, when it’s time for battle he screws on a giant set of claws in place of hands.

Sgt. Cookie

2019-05-06, 02:56 PM

Y'know Elves, that actually gives me an idea...

Martial Body
Some Warforged are built with plates inlaid with martial script of one particular discipline.
Prerequisite:
1st level only, Warforged
Effect: When you take this feat, choose a Martial Discipline. While you are in one of that discipline's stances, your armour bonus increases to +5. Additionally, your Slam is always considered to be a preferred weapon of the chosen discipline. Lastly, you also gain Martial Study as a bonus feat, however the chosen discipline must match the discipline chosen for this feat.

Special: Unlike most feats, this feat must be taken at first level during character creation.

Normal: Warforged without this feat (And Warforged with this feat who aren't in a stance of the chosen discipline) have an Armour Bonus of +2.

Elves

2019-05-07, 06:32 PM

Oh, that's cooler than what I was thinking (a warforged subrace with a racial bonus when using martial scripts, or the ability to run 2 at once).

Another option is to say that in this setting, it's much easier to change a wf's external plating, hence armor works normally for them (you just need to find a very specialized craftsman). Which is kind of how it should be. Your feat could be renamed "Sparforged" and have the armor bonus changed to some other bonus.

Wasted time doing a rewrite of oslecamo's Ancient Temple discipline, called Phantom Garden, but more AOW content inc.

paddyfool

2019-05-12, 01:34 AM

Elves

2019-05-12, 01:35 PM

By default, WF don't get armor so they have to take the adamantine/mithral/etc body feats at 1st level. Presumably it's supposed to be somewhat better than Mithral Body for a warforged initiator who plans on using a specific discipline heavily.

If changing to my suggestion above that in Sword World warforged armor works normally, then maybe a nerf would be warranted (and I'd also add in a benefit when using martial scripts).

Elves

2019-05-18, 10:16 PM

Desolate Arbitrator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?232080-3-5-Desolate-Arbitrator-Discipline&p=12689742#post12689742%22) conversion to Epic Discipline. No need for anyone to read this but posting for convenience.

Tried to make it a more linear ascent in power akin to 4e's epic levels.

Before the Great Wheel was even created, a geometric being called Cecelyne fought against the gods and was defeated. Its structure was of an ultrareal substance comparable to glass, which when the killing blow was struck, shattered completely. A swarm of specks of silver glass drifted away, settling into Cecelyne’s new extraplanar jail in the interstitial reaches of the Wheel. This jail, most easily accessed from Hell, is now known as the Endless Desert: a sentient desert made of sharp grains of shattered silver glass, burning with heat and unrest and hate for everything that we now call divine.

SPECIAL: All Desolate Arbitrator maneuvers automatically bypass the damage reduction and immunities of Divine Beings. Divine Beings include outsiders from the Outer Planes, creatures with Outer Plane heritage, all users of divine magic (including via non-item-granted SLAs), and all creatures of Divine Rank 0 or higher. Miss chance still applies.

Desolate Arbitrator [Epic, Initiation]
You burn with Cecelyne’s vengeful hate for the gods and their servants.

Prerequisites: 21st level, no levels in divine spellcasting classes, must be capable of initiating 9th-level maneuvers of any discipline, must make a pilgrimage to the Endless Desert and undergo a period of heavy training there.

Benefits: Choose a non-epic discipline. Your maneuvers from this discipline bypass the damage reduction and immunities of Divine Beings just as Shattered Glass maneuvers do.

Characters with this feat may learn maneuvers from the Shattered Glass discipline.

It is a source of infinite distaste for the Endless Desert that those who butchered her are also the subject of such devout worship by the races of mortalkind. That any could even suggest such beings are greater than she is, in her mind, a cosmic injustice.

Maneuvers

Sandstrike Blast (Strike) – Scour the insufferable stench of divinity from your presence.
Sands Through Fingers Defense (Counter) – 50% miss chance as weapons slide through you.
Transcendent Desert Creature (Stance) – Acclimate yourself to desolation.
Knowing the Desolate Heart (Strike) – Call to another's broken hopes and dreams.
Soul-Sieve Transformation (Boost) – Change your form into sand and spirit.
Counter-Pronouncement of Enthymematic Law (Utility) – Prohibit one type of action in 100ft radius.
Swallowed in Eternity (Counter) – Stretch time and space to rebuke would-be attackers.
Many-Faceted Mirage Technique (Strike) – Bend space to exist in many places for a flash of time.
Soul-Sand Devil Shintai (Stance) – Condense into a silver sliver of the Endless Desert's spiritual desolation.
World-Grinding Sandstorm Devastation (Strike) – Bring a fragment of Cecelyne into this world.

Sandstrike Blast
Shattered Glass (Strike)
Action: Standard
Area: 15ft cone, 40ft line or single-target missile (25ft. + 5ft/2 levels)
Target: All in area, or one creature
XP Cost: 20,000 XP
Training Time: 20 days

With an effort of will, you blasphemously open your soul as a tiny portal through which the malice of Cecelyne may protrude into the Great Wheel. Tiny granules of silver sand collect along your weapon or fist and spray out in a scouring jet. Alternately, you sweep your sword and a gash of searing silver sand sprays outward.

This maneuver requires a ranged attack roll. If it hits you deal damage equal to 1d6/IL plus dexmod.

Kata: You can use this maneuver as a swift-action boost, delivered as a single-target touch attack after you hit with a melee or ranged attack. Since the sand needs time to gather, however, you must declare your use of the boost before rolling your initial attack.

Sands Through Fingers Defense
Shattered Glass (Counter)
Action: Immediate
Range: Personal
Target: You
XP Cost: 20,000 XP
Training Time: 20 days

Cecelyne has been ground to dust. She is an infinite expansion of pain, sorrow, and malevolence. How can she be defeated further? What is left to inflict upon her? What life may be rent from desolate sands?

All attacks made against you until the end of the round have a 50% chance of not affecting you. Roll this before other forms of miss chance.

As the arrow, scorching ray, or sword swing enters your form, the place where a wound would appear merely dissolves into silver sand. The attack passes through you as your body flickers and reforms back to normal.

Soul-Sieve Transformation
Shattered Glass (Boost)
Prerequisite: 1 Shattered Glass maneuver
Action: Swift
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round
Save: Fortitude partial
XP Cost: 20,000 XP
Training Time: 20 days

For a moment, your body dissolves completely into an exact replica of itself made of gleaming silver sand, held together by pure strength of spiritual will. All physical attacks made against you automatically fail, and spells fail 50% of the time - whooshing impotently through empty sand - similar to Sands Through Fingers Defense.

While in this state, you may move much more freely. You have a 60ft fly speed with perfect maneuverability, and may slip through any opening large enough to allow grains of sand to pass.

You can move into the same space as other creatures your size or smaller. If not protected by the Transcendent Desert Creature stance, creatures whose space you move through take 10d6 damage and 10d6 searing fire damage and are blinded (Fortitude ends). Creatures your size and smaller gain total concealment while you share their space.

Transcendent Desert Creature
Shattered Glass (Stance)
Prerequisite: 1 Shattered Glass maneuver
Action: Swift
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance
XP Cost: 30,000 XP
Training Time: 30 days of training in the Endless Desert

The exposure to the energies of your mistress has hardened your mind, body, and spirit to desolation to the point where you are more at home in the inhospitable places than ones built for habitation.

This stance has three effects.

1. All terrain in a 30ft radius around you is rendered barren. Grass and trees wither instantly, water becomes too salty to support life, moisture is torn from the air until it becomes unpleasantly arid, and creatures other than you take 5 points of desiccation damage per round. This zone of desolation remains with you, defiling the land where you tread. Areas that you spend more than a few minutes in further degrade - the soil cracks and smolders into hot sand, vegetation rots and dissolves into dust, water does not so much evaporate as cease to be. While in an environment that you are desolating in this way (one with life or liquid to drain), you gain Fast Healing 10, +1 for every Tiny or larger creature you harmed with this stance last round.

This effect can be enabled or disabled as a free action.

2. Divine spellcasting and spell-like abilities, as well as turn undead effects or effects they fuel, are smothered while near you. Within 30 feet of you, such powers simply cease to function unless used by gods, ie creatures of Divine Rank 1 or higher. For gods within 30 feet of you, and for all beings including gods between 31 and 60 feet away from you, performing such acts still requires a DC (2x your IL + spell level) Concentration check, or the spell is simply expended with no effect - torn apart by the malice of the Endless Desert. Even if the attempt is successful, the spell or spell-like ability functions as if the caster's caster level were 2 lower.

(Nor can divine spellcasters pray for new spells within 60ft of you.)

3. In places of physical desolation, such as deserts, wastelands, badlands, tundras, dead seas, the elemental plane of fire, the burning battlefields of Avernus, and similar, you require no food or sleep, are not subject to natural hazards, extreme temperature, or severe weather, do not require a Survival check to keep from getting lost, and take no penalty to overland movement or to following tracks due to the terrain. You may extend this benefit to a number of other individuals equal to your initiator level, so long as they remain within about a mile of your position. These individuals are also immune to the desiccation damage dealt by this stance.

Granting or rescinding this benefit is a free action.

Many-Faceted Mirage Technique
Shattered Glass (Strike)
Prerequisite: 3 Shattered Glass Maneuvers
Action: Standard
Range: Personal
Area: 20ft radius
Target: Multiple Creatures
XP Cost: 30,000 XP
Training Time: 30 days

For a brief second, your contemplations on the infinity of the Endless Desert allow you to fracture yourself, much as her own body is countless billions of sundered granules.

As part of activating this maneuver, a number of copies of you equal to your highest mental ability score modifier move from your space toward an enemy and act once upon them. The copies are corporeal and may not cohabit spaces with other copies after leaving yours. Each action may be different, and you may be wielding a different weapon for each action so long as it is on your person. Combat actions allowed by this maneuver are:

- Basic melee or ranged attack
- Bull Rush
- Disarm
- Sunder
- Trip
- Feint

Nothing your fractured self does during this maneuver provokes an attack of opportunity. By the same token you don’t provide flank benefits.

Once the fractured copies of yourself have performed their action, they disappear, and you appear in one of their squares of your choice.

This maneuver doesn’t duplicate consumables or any form of usage limit on items or powers.

Swallowed in Eternity
Shattered Glass (Counter)
Prerequisite: 3 Shattered Glass Maneuvers
Action: Immediate
Range: Visible
Target: One creature or object
Save: Will partial, or with Divine Rank 1+, Will negates
Immediate action maintain, maximum 5 rounds
XP Cost: 30,000 XP
Training Time: 30 days

The Endless Desert isn’t infinite by virtue of something so mundane as 'size'. Rather, she transcends the traditional conceptions of space and time.

You may warp space between yourself and one selected creature or object, making the distance between the two of you functionally infinite. For 1 round, the target cannot come closer to you. A victim running at a full sprint will perceive their own motion and appear to all onlookers as moving towards you, but upon stopping, all would realize that they have not moved from the point they began. This functions upon anything the creature attempts to move towards you under its own power as well — an arrow or spell they shoot will appear to continuously fly towards you, as if always a moment from striking your body, never ceasing, but it will never actually get to you while this maneuver is in effect.

Spells that don’t physically traverse space aren’t affected, which may vary depending on how a given spell is fluffed: at minimum it affects all spells that resemble missiles, like rays and lightning bolts.

A successful Will save from the target lets them move toward you at half speed; their spells and missiles act as if you were twice as far away as you are (but missiles don’t lose power, since they are not actually being slowed down, rather space is being warped). If a creature of Divine Rank 1 or higher succeeds on their save, they negate the maneuver’s effect entirely. Inanimate objects do not receive a save.

Additionally, once the maneuver ends, all projectiles speeding at you continue to do so. They hit whoever is in the space you were in when you initiated this maneuver.

You may maintain this maneuver even if the target succeeds on their save. The target does not get additional saves on subsequent rounds.

This maneuver creates immense strain if you attempt to use it on objects vastly larger than yourself, like a falling meteor or what have you.

Counter-Pronouncement of Enthymematic Law
Shattered Glass (Utility)
Prerequisite: 4 Shattered Glass Maneuvers
Action: Standard
Range: Personal
Target: You
Area: 100ft emanation centered on you
Save: Will partial, or if Divine Rank 1+, Will negates
Maintain: Swift, up to 5 rounds
XP Cost: 45,000 XP
Training Time: 30 days of training in the Endless Desert

Cecelyne remembers when she was the hierophant of molten geometries and the worlds they formed. But in this terrible age, she is broken and her laws are arbitrary and enforced with threats and suffering.

When activating this maneuver, you must declare a particular kind of action. Here is a list of examples, although other options of similar scope are possible at the GM’s discretion. Something such as “arcane spell-like abilities” or “druid spellcasting” would be too broad. Something that’s not an action, such as “familiars”, wouldn’t work.

- Melee attacks
- Ranged attacks
- Spellcasting of one school
- Maneuvers of one discipline
- Invoking
- Vestige abilities
- Sneak Attacks
- 5ft steps
- Full attacks
- Withdraw actions
- Charging
- Use of the Power Attack feat

Once the action is chosen, you create a 100ft radius emanation centered on yourself wherein the chosen action is strictly prohibited by the law of Cecelyne. All creatures in the aura, or that enter the aura, are alerted telepathically of your new law, which they understand so long as they have at least Intelligence 1. You are also subject to this prohibition.

Cecelyne’s law may be defied with a successful Will save, but the defiant creature incurs a cumulative -4 penalty to CL, IL, saving throws, skill checks, attack rolls and armor class each time they defy it, as their heresy draws doom upon them. These penalties last until the maneuver ends. Beings of divine rank 1 or higher receive no penalty on a successful Will save.

Even though people outside the area don’t receive a warning, the prohibition still extends to effects that begin outside the zone but try to enter, such as a long-range spell or a charge that crosses through the area. If the effect’s originator fails or voluntarily aborts their save the spell dissipates, or the charge halts in its tracks, upon entering the area. If there is no effect originator at hand, then barring intelligent programming it receives no save; if there is intelligent programming, the effect receives a save at the bonus of the one who made it at the time it was made.

Maneuvers aren’t eligible for Persistent Emanation.

Soul-Sand Devil Shintai
Shattered Glass (Stance)
Prerequisite: 4 Shattered Glass Maneuvers
Action: Swift
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance
XP Cost: 45,000 XP
Training Time: 45 days of training in the Endless Desert

Although Cecelyne is infinitely massive, her physicality is only a relatively small part of the whole. The wretched burning wastes of her body are insignificant in comparison to the spiteful desolation that is her spiritual self.

By switching into this stance, you collapse a portion of your flesh and blood into the blasphemous void that has become your soul. Aside from being fantastically painful and leaving you with an otherworldly silver shimmer, you also reduce your maximum hit point total by half. Any hit points you currently have over this are lost, though they reappear when you leave the stance.

In exchange, you gain a pool of potential temporary hit points that is separate from and drained before all other temporary hit points. This pool has a maximum capacity of your normal maximum hit points before using this stance + your initiator level, but is empty when you enter this stance.

Every time you guiltlessly and intentionally inflict harm or suffering on a sentient intelligent being, you add your IL in temporary hit points to your stance pool. This includes hitting and dealing damage with an attack, casting a harmful spell, or inflicting a negative condition by other means. Multi-target spells or powers that are save based or do automatic damage only count once, for using the spell. Area effects that are attack roll based typically only count once — provided they injure at least one target — since a single attack usually governs the whole area. A maneuver that allows multiple attacks counts multiple times. Powers or attacks that apply multiple status conditions, or damage on top of one or more status conditions, still only count once. Ongoing damage effects in which you are dealing damage each round, such as Transcendent Desert Creature, count each turn, while ongoing damage effects that are simply the continuation of an already-applied effect, such as bleed damage, burning, or secondary poison damage, don’t count. Terrain spells such as Wall of Fire count if you cast them so as to immediately affect targets.

Various noncombat cruelties could also count — even a specifically tailored and truly injurious insult made for vindictive reasons could count if it harmed the target — as could eg sundering an intelligent item.

When you leave this stance, you lose all temporary hit points from this pool and your maximum hit points return to normal.

World-Grinding Sandstorm Devastation
Shattered Glass (Strike)
Prerequisite: 8 Shattered Glass Maneuvers
Action: Standard
Range: Personal
Area: 1 mile
Duration: 1 round/IL
XP Cost: 90,000 XP
Training Time: A timeless interval of training in the Endless Desert. When you return you find that only 90 days have passed elsewhere.

For several long moments, you pray to your infinitely shattered matron. The skies overhead lighten, and a voluminous nimbus of silver and green radiance wreathes the area around you. The wind picks up, the ground shakes, and the very essence of the world trembles in anticipation.

Upon completion of this maneuver, you conjure a silver sandstorm one mile in diameter, centered upon your location. You are safe, taking neither damage nor penalty nor hindrance of any kind, as is everyone protected by a Transcendent Desert Creature stance. Woe unto the rest.

The conjured sandstorm may be moved 250 feet in a direction of your choice as a standard action. If you wish, the sandstorm’s winds will safely carry you and other Transcendent Desert Creatures along with it, maintaining your position at its center. Its interior is considered to be Hurricane-force winds (see the DMG, the SRD, or Sandstorm), but instead of a flat DC 20, its Fortitude save DC is calculated as if it were one of your maneuvers. All listening checks inside automatically fail, and any skill check that requires visibility to be used properly takes a -6 penalty. Every living thing caught without shelter in the sandstorm takes 2d6 damage per round, which automatically bypasses the damage reduction and Regeneration of divine beings.*If they are within 100 feet of you, they instead take 20d6.

All terrain that the sandstorm moves over is not only rendered barren, its vegetation and wildlife stripped and flensed into nothing, but the soil and rock for hundreds of feet down is transmuted into silver sand. Veins of precious metal corrode into worthlessness. Ground water turns to dust.

Once a section of land about a hundred miles in diameter has been scoured into desert by this maneuver, it begins to radiate the unearthly heat of the Endless Desert. Inside its borders, the cycle of day and night flicker and cease, replaced by unstoppable green light. Perhaps if an entire planet or divine domain were so effaced, its abject spiritual desolation would be enough to free Cecelyne into the Wheel. Or perhaps not.

You may only have one sandstorm active at a time. Dismissing an existing sandstorm requires a full-round action, although it takes a full minute for the winds to fully disperse.

I have 100 pages of legacy weapons kicking around so going to trim that down + make it at least slightly entertaining.

Elves

2019-05-19, 09:28 PM

Completing Bloodstained Gutter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?220910-Have-you-ever-heard-of-the-Marquis-de-Fantailer-Martial-quot-Discipline-quot).

Level 1:
Chokehold: Counter - Prevent grappled target from doing anything.
Eye Jab: Strike - No penalty on called shot against eyes.
Stomp: Boost - Stomp on adjacent prone target.
Stranglehold: Boost - Deal additional damage in grapple.
Sucker Punch/Sucker Shank: Strike - +4 on attack vs flatfooted opponent.

Level 2:
Weapon Feint: Strike - Your weapon distracts while you make unarmed attack.
Weapon Grab: Counter or Strike - Snatch or immobilize target's weapon.

Level 4:
S*** They Have Spells: Counter - Evade spell or missile.

Level 5:
Air Choke: Strike - Strangling grapple knocks living creature unconscious.
Street King's Menacing Stare: Stance - Gain frightful presence

Level 6:
Harder Stomach Punch: Strike - Nauseate your foe
Get Out Quick: Counter - Get out of opponent's range after attacking

Level 7:
Constrictor Grip: Strike - Target you grapple is exhausted
Body Them: Strike - Powerful slam attack knocks prone

Level 8:
Knife Fighter's Bleeding Persistence: Stance - Bleed to death slowly & keep trucking it while you do.
Maiming Strike: Strike - Debilitating blow on one body part
Whopping Roundhouse: Boost - Swift action unarmed attack also dazes

Chokehold
Bloodstained Gutter (Counter)
Level: Swordsage 1, Warblade 1
Initiation Action: Immediate
Target: One creature you have just won or are maintaining a grapple against
Trigger: The target tries to take an action

The action is cancelled.

Limitation: this maneuver can't prevent the target from taking the Escape From Grapple action.

Eye Jab
Bloodstained Gutter (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 1, Warblade 1
Initiation Action: Standard
Range: Melee
Target: One creature

You make a called shot against the target's eyes, as per the Pathfinder rules (see below) but with no penalty. If wielding a two-handed weapon, this is often done with the pommel. You take a -4 penalty if the target is wearing heavy eye protection such as a closed visor or defensive goggles.

If this is done as an unarmed attack against a creature with close-set eyes, like most animals, you can do the characteristic scissor-hands jab. Your called shot affects two eyes instead of one, disabling both if you hit, though due to the diminished force of this move you apply only half your Strength bonus to damage, as if it were an off-hand weapon.

If you're in a Bloodstained Gutter stance, such an unarmed attack doesn't provoke and may deal lethal damage, as if you had Improved Unarmed Strike.

Eyes include whatever organs a creature uses to see. At the DM’s discretion, a called shot to the eye can also target sensory organs such as antennae, potentially negating abilities like blindsense. Generally, a creature can’t be blinded until it has lost all vision in all of its eyes. Creatures with five or more eyes take no penalties from called shots to their eyes until they’re blinded in enough eyes to bring them down a single functional eye. Called shots to the eye are challenging (–10 penalty).

Called Shot: A called shot to the eye gives all of the target’s foes concealment against its attacks for 1 round and gives it a –2 penalty on Perception checks. If the creature only has one functional eye prior to the called shot, it is blinded for 1 round instead.

Critical Called Shot: A critical hit to the eye costs the target sight in that eye for 1d4 minutes. The target also suffers the effects of a called shot to the eye for that duration.

Debilitating Blow (an attack that deals damage equal to half the target's max HP, minimum 50): A debilitating blow to the eye destroys that eye, causes blindness until the condition is removed with a remove blindness/deafness spell or similar effect, and deals 1d6 points of bleed damage. A successful Reflex saving throw reduces this to 1d4 hours of loss of sight in that eye and eliminates the bleeding. The target also suffers the effects of a called shot to the eye for 2d6 minutes.

Stomp
Bloodstained Gutter (Boost)
Level: Swordsage 1, Warblade 1
Initiation Action: Swift
Range: Adjacent
Target: One creature

Make an unarmed attack against an adjacent prone or helpless opponent. With heavy or armored footwear this attack counts as a heavy weapon, hence you can Power Attack with it, and it deals damage as if you were 2 size categories larger. With truly combative footwear like spiked or adamantine-capped boots it can do lethal damage even without Improved Unarmed Strike, and deals damage as if you were 3 size categories larger.

If you're in a Bloodstained Gutter stance, this attack doesn't provoke, even if you don't have Improved Unarmed Strike.

Stranglehold
Bloodstained Gutter (Boost)
Level: Swordsage 1, Warblade 1
Initiation Action: Swift
Target: One creature you have just won or are maintaining a grapple against

Take the Damage Your Opponent grapple action. This doesn't prevent you from taking that action again at another point in your turn.

At IL 10 this damage is doubled, and at 15 tripled.

Sucker Shank
Bloodstained Gutter (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 1, Warblade 1
Initiation Action: Standard
Range: Melee
Target: One flat-footed creature

Make a melee attack against the target with +4 to hit. This only applies to targets who are flat-footed, not those who have been denied their Dex bonus to AC some other way, and the target need not be susceptible to precision damage.

If used unarmed, this maneuver is called Sucker Punch.

Weapon Feint
Bloodstained Gutter (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 2, Warblade 2
Prerequisites: 1 Bloodstained Gutter maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee Attack
Target: One creature
Saving throw: None

Make a Feint attempt as a free action, without the normal penalty against nonhumanoid opponents. If you win and the target is within your unarmed reach make an unarmed attack against them.

“The big rules of knife fighting are (a) do not try it at home, and (b) the whole point is never, ever use the blade. It is there to distract your opponent. While he stares at the gleaming steel, you kick his balls to kingdom come--he's all yours. Just a tip!”

Weapon Grab
Bloodstained Gutter (Strike or Counter)
Level: Swordsage 2, Warblade 2
Prerequisites: 1 Bloodstained Gutter maneuver
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee Attack
Target: One creature
Trigger (if Counter): Target attacks you with a melee weapon it's wielding
Saving throw: None

This maneuver can be used either as a standard action strike, or an immediate action counter against a weapon-wielding target who attacks you.

You make a disarm attempt. Used as a strike, this provokes an AoO unless you have Improved Disarm. Used as a counter, it (like all swift and immediate actions) doesn't.

This disarm attempt is atypical in two ways.

1) Rather than opposed attack rolls, you and the target make opposed Strength checks. There is no size modifier since this is already baked into Strength, and the normal disarm modifiers are halved to plus or minus 2, or +5 for a locked gauntlet. If you preemptively declare that you are trying to grip rather than disarm (see below), a locked gauntlet provides no bonus. Finally, if either of you have a free hand or a hand gripping a shield that you commit to the grip, you get a +2 bonus on the check.

2) In addition to the normal options allowed by Disarm, you may grip onto the weapon, keeping it and them useless unless they relinquish it. So long as you're both gripping the weapon, you both lose your Dex bonus to AC and don't threaten any squares. You can't move. You can't do anything with the hands you have committed to the grip or the weapons or tools in them; if you are gripping with a shield hand you lose the shield's AC bonus.

Each turn you can make another Strength check to maintain the grip. Either of you can let go of the weapon as a free action to end the grip, but if the initiator lets go, they provoke an attack of opportunity. If the target lets go you can either grab the weapon, provided you have a free hand, or let it drop. If the target has a locked gauntlet they cannot choose to end the grip. If you are gripping a weapon unarmed without sufficient protection, then when the grip is established and each round it's maintained you take the weapon's base damage plus any damage from magical enhancements or abilities.

Used as a strike this maneuver can target any item, not necessarily a weapon.

S*** They Have Spells
Bloodstained Gutter (Counter)
Level: Swordsage 4, Warblade 4
Prerequisites: 2 Bloodstained Gutter maneuvers
Initiation Action: Immediate
Trigger: You are targeted with a spell or ranged attack

You try to duck out of the way of a spell or missile. This entails a mix of instinct, reflex, positioning and trained ability to sense when it's coming.

When this maneuver is used against a spell that involves an attack roll or has missile-like properties, or against a moderate velocity projectile such as an arrow, you treat that spell or projectile as if it allowed a Reflex save for half damage. Evasion applies.

Against a high-velocity projectile such as a bullet, or a spell that targets you and does not involve an attack roll, you instead gain 20% miss chance.

This maneuver is used before the triggering attack is rolled, if applicable.

Air Choke
Bloodstained Gutter (Counter)
Level: Swordsage 5, Warblade 5
Prerequisites: 2 Bloodstained Gutter maneuvers
Initiation Action: Standard
Range: Melee
Target: One living creature susceptible to carotid restriction or something anatomically analogous
Save: Fortitude partial

Make a grapple attempt against the target. If you win, the target must succeed on a Fortitude save or be knocked unconscious. If they succeed they still take unarmed damage as if you had successfully used the Damage Your Opponent grapple action.

Street King's Menacing Stare
Bloodstained Gutter (Stance)
Level: Swordsage 5, Warblade 5
Prerequisites: 2 Bloodstained Gutter maneuvers
Initiation Action: Swift
Range: Personal
Target: You

TBA

Get Out Quick
Bloodstained Gutter (Counter)
Level: Swordsage 6, Warblade 6
Prerequisites: 3 Bloodstained Gutter maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Trigger: You make a melee attack or use a strike

You move to the closest space outside the reach of the creature you attacked, up to 20 feet, without provoking AoOs. At IL 15 you can move up to 30 feet. If there are multiple equidistant eligible squares, choose.

Get in, strike, and get out before they smash you.

Harder Stomach Punch
Bloodstained Gutter (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 6, Warblade 6
Prerequisites: 2 Bloodstained Gutter maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee Attack
Target: One creature
Saving throw: None

You strike your enemy's stomach, causing nausea and sickness. As part of this maneuver, make a single melee attack against a creature. If the attack hits, your enemy is nauseated for one round.

Constrictor Grip
Bloodstained Gutter (Boost)
Level: Swordsage 7, Warblade 7
Prerequisites: 3 Bloodstained Gutter maneuvers
Initiation Action: Standard
Range: Melee
Target: One creature

You grip someone in an iron-hard hold that leaves their body winded, bruised and worn out.

Initiate a grapple against the target. You gain a +4 bonus on the grapple check. If you win the check, the target is fatigued. If you maintain the grapple for at least one round afterward, the target is exhausted.

If you're in a Bloodstained Gutter stance, the initial grapple attempt doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.

Knife Fighter's Bleeding Persistence
Bloodstained Gutter (Stance)
Level: Swordsage 8, Warblade 8
Prerequisites: 3 Bloodstained Gutter maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Melee Attack
Target: One creature
Saving throw: None

You're in it to end it, and will push through to end it, even if it kills you.

While in this stance, all damage you take is divided by x. You take this fraction as ongoing damage for x rounds. This damage can be rounded or fractionalized, your choice.

While this applies against most forms of energy damage, it doesn't apply in situations such as immersion in acid or lava where even extreme adrenaline and endurance can't keep you going.

"I stabbed her, but she didn't fall dead. It doesn't work that way. When you stab somebody, they leak to death."

"The loser of a knife fight dies at the scene. The winner dies in the ambulance on the way to the hospital."

Maiming Strike
Bloodstained Gutter (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 8, Warblade 8
Prerequisites: 4 Bloodstained Gutter maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature
Save: Fortitude or Reflex partial

With a rapid move, its speed hellishly disproportional to the change it will cause, you lash out and permanently maim someone.

Make a single attack, specifying part of the target's body (see the list below). If the area you attack is specifically armored, such as by a protective visor, metal breastplate, or codpiece, the attack takes a -4 penalty (mage armor doesn't count). This penalty may be reduced to -2 if you're using a weapon specifically suited to penetrating that armor piece, like a piercing weapon for a slitted visor or a crushing weapon for plate.

If the attack deals damage, it counts as a debilitating blow under the Pathfinder "Called Shot" rules, with some small differences:

Arm: 1d6 points of Dexterity damage and 1d6 points of Strength damage. The blow renders the arm useless unless the target succeeds on a Fortitude saving throw. If the saving throw fails, the arm is severed or otherwise mangled such that only regeneration or similar effects can repair it. The target also suffers the effects of a called shot to the arm for 2d6 minutes, even if their save succeeds: attack rolls, ability checks, or skill checks made using the wounded arm take a –2 penalty. A winged creature hit in the wing must make a Fly check to avoid descending involuntarily.

Chest: 2d4 points of Constitution damage and exhausts the target. A successful Fortitude saving throw (made after the Constitution damage is applied) reduces the exhaustion to fatigue. If the saving throw fails by 5 or more, the creature’s internal injuries deal 1 point of Constitution damage in any round the creature takes a standard action. The internal injuries can be healed by a DC 25 Heal check. The target also suffers the effects of a called shot to the chest, even if their save succeeds: their physical skill checks take a –2 penalty for 1 week.

Ear: You destroy the ear and stun the target for 1 round, then leave it staggered for 1d4 rounds, and deafened until removed with the remove blindness/deafness spell or a similar effect. A successful Fortitude saving throw deafens the creature until it is restored by the remove blindness/deafness spell or a similar effect.

Eye: The eye is destroyed, causing blindness until the condition is removed with a remove blindness/deafness spell or similar effect, and deals 1d6 points of bleed damage until they receive a DC 20 Heal check or 1/10 their max HP of magical healing. A successful Reflex saving throw reduces this to 1d4 hours of loss of sight in that eye and eliminates the bleeding. The target also suffers the effects of a called shot to the eye for 2d6 minutes, even if their save succeeds: all creatures gain concealment against its attacks for 1 round and it takes –2 on Search and Spot checks for 24 hours.

Hand: 1d6 points of Dexterity damage. The blow renders the hand useless until healed unless the target succeeds at a Reflex saving throw. If the saving throw fails by 5 or more, the hand is severed or otherwise mangled such that only regeneration or similar effects can repair it. Regardless of the result of the saving throw, anything held in the wounded hand is automatically dropped, even items held in two or more hands. The target also suffers the effects of a called shot to the hand (if it hasn't been chopped off) for 2d6 minutes, even if their save succeeds: any attack rolls, damage rolls, ability checks, or skill checks made using the wounded hand take a –2 penalty, including rolls with two-handed weapons. In addition, the target takes a –4 penalty to resist disarm attempts, and drops its weapon (if any) on an attack roll result of a natural 1.

Head: 1d6 points of Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma damage (roll separately for each), and knocks the target unconscious for 1d10 rounds. A successful Fortitude saving throw prevents the target from being knocked unconscious, but leaves it staggered for 1d10 rounds instead. If the saving throw fails by 5 or more, the target is rendered senseless by severe brain trauma (as the feeblemind spell) until it receives a heal, greater restoration, or similar effect. The target also suffers the effects of a called shot to the head for 2d6 minutes, even if their save succeeds: they are sickened for 1d4 rounds.

Heart: Their heart is destroyed, instantly killing any creature that relies on its heart to survive. Creatures that succeed at a Fortitude save suffer exhaustion and take 1d6 points of Constitution damage and 1d4 points of Constitution bleed damage, as do creatures that can survive without a heart. A debilitating blow to the heart against a vampire made with a piercing weapon made entirely of wood affects the vampire as a critical hit to the heart; for example, it still receives a Fortitude save to avoid the consequences.

Groin: TBA

Leg: The target is knocked prone. The blow renders the leg entirely useless until healed unless the target succeeds at a Fortitude saving throw. If the saving throw fails by 5 or more, the leg is severed or otherwise mangled such that only regeneration or similar effects can repair it. If the save succeeds, the target is instead lamed and moves at half speed until the leg is healed, or until it receives a Heal spell or long-term care with the Heal skill. A creature with a useless or severed leg moves at half speed if it still has more than half of its legs usable; otherwise, it cannot stand up and must crawl to move. The target also suffers the effects of a called shot to the leg (if the leg remains usable) for 2d6 minutes, even if their save succeeds: their ambulatory movement speed is reduced by 10 feet if two legged, or 5 feet if they have more than two legs, to a minimum speed of 5 feet (this stacks for hits on multiple different legs), they cannot run or charge, and they take a -2 penalty on physical skill checks.

Neck: The target cannot speak or breathe and takes 1d4 points of Constitution damage each round. A successful Fortitude saving throw reduces this to 2d6 points of regular damage, and the target is only unable to speak and breathe for 1d4 minutes. The Constitution bleed damage caused by a debilitating blow to the neck can only be stopped by regeneration (spell or special ability), magical healing that heals as many points of damage as the original blow dealt, or a DC 20 Heal check that takes 5 rounds to complete.

Vitals: 1d6 points of Constitution drain, and the target is nauseated for 1d4 rounds and sickened for 2d6 minutes. A successful Fortitude save reduces the drain to damage and the nausea to 1 round. If the save fails by 5 or more, the target is disemboweled or otherwise horrifically wounded, and takes 1 point of ongoing Constitution damage which can only be stopped by regeneration (spell or special ability), magical healing that heals as many points of damage (from one or more sources) as the original blow dealt, or a DC 20 Heal check that takes 5 rounds to complete.

Whopping Roundhouse
Bloodstained Gutter (Boost)
Level: Swordsage 8, Warblade 8
Prerequisites: 1 Bloodstained Gutter maneuver
Initiation Action: Standard
Range: Melee
Target: One creature
Save: Fort partial

Make an unarmed attack. It counts as a heavy weapon, deals lethal damage and doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. It does 4d8+strmod damage, plus or minus 1d8 per size category away from Medium, and dazes for 1 round if it hits (Fortitude negates daze).

Elves

2019-06-04, 07:11 PM

Finally drafted up that idea for the TOB bard class, here's the thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?589546-Poet-(TOB-bard)-WIP-PEACH&p=23953532) This is the last of the new base classes, if it turns out decent enough to include.

I think it's successfully different from bard, but VERY unsure about balance/power level so input on that is great. It's not as long as the Animist thread was.

----

When I posted this thread awhile ago I was expecting to get it done much faster. Unfortunately, for the rest of the summer I basically can't do much on this. Fortunately, given that it lay fallow for 10 years I don't think another 3 months will do much damage.

JoshuaZ

2019-06-04, 07:36 PM

Also note that the most recent prestige class contest had multiple entries which used Tome of Battle mechanics (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?588989-Voting-Thread-for-Prestige-Class-Contest-Thread-VI-Hybrid-Power). Both were very good.

Elves

2019-06-05, 12:14 AM

Looking at the Binder one made me remember the suggestion from a couple pages ago to split the inter-subsystem stuff into its own much smaller Tome of Battle 3. This is the material we have so far that would go there:

Classes:
New Binder vestiges
Presumably more hybrid options

Disciplines:
Mental Grip
Sleeping Goddess
[Incarnum discipline - mix of Warrior's Soul & Essential Cut]
[Antimagic discipline - mix of Mystic Eclipse/Mystic Sovereignity/Sacred Might]
Revision of the arcane magic one, "Solaris Arcanum"
One of the necromantic ones?
And I guess one divine magic one

PRCs:
Demonspawn Harbinger
Knight of the Word
Occult Adversary and/or Pact-Bound Knight
Oracle Knight
Seeker of Lost Swords & Preserver of Future Blades
Soul Disciple
Warsmith

Feats:
Presumably a smattering of hybrid feats

Not a horrible idea. Wouldn't take much effort, it's more like just putting things in a different folder.

Anyone for or against?

Elves

2019-07-17, 04:30 PM

Anti-necromancy bump in case anyone visits and wants to post. As mentioned, summer hiatus still on until Sept.

Sgt. Cookie

2019-07-17, 09:02 PM

This is something I threw at my players a while back, but I figured it would be a good fit for this project (They're technically unfinished as they didn't actually survive long enough for me to bother writing out feats and things.)

Hound of Reshar
Medium Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 8d10 + 32 (72)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40ft (8 squares)
Armour Class: 23 (+3 Dex, +10 Natural), Touch 13, FF 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +8/+19
Attack: +1 Short sword +18 1d6 + 9 OR Bite +16 (1d6 + 8)
Full Attack: +1 Short sword +18/+13
Space/Reach: 5ft/5ft
Special Attacks:
Maneuvers and Stances
(Usual maneuvers readied:
Obscuring Shadow Veil: (+5d6 damage Will save or 50% miss chance)
White Raven Strike: (+4d6 damage, target flat footed)
White Raven Tactics: (Ally takes an extra turn)
Revitalising Strike: (Heal 3d6+8 damage)
Wall of Blades (Replace AC with an Attack roll)
Stances:
Island of Blades
Tactics of The Wolf

Special Qualities: Low Light Vision, Scent, Weapon Usage, Martial Adept, Sense Weapon
Saves:
Fort +10 Ref +9 Will +3
Abilities:
Str 26, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10
Skills: Concentration +12*, Hide +7*, Listen +7, Move Silently +7*, Spot +3, Survival +1*
Feats: Trackb,
Challenge Rating: 6
Organisation: Solitary or Pack (6-9)
Advancement: 9-12 HD (Medium), 13-18 HD (Large)
*They only have Concentration if they also have maneuvers dependent on them. If they do, reduce Hide, Listen and Move Silently by 2 and Spot and Survival by 1.

What stands before you appears, in stature, to be an ordinary wolf. What marks it as definitively not normal is that the top of its head is silver-grey and it grasps a shortsword in its mouth, growling efforlessly behind it. If you didn't know better, you'd almost think it was attempting to challenge anyone holding a magical weapon...

Special Qualities
Weapon Usage (Ex): Hounds of Reshar can wield light simple and martial weapons in their mouths. Weapons wielded this way are considered One-Handed weapons, rather than light. When using a weapon, a Hound of Reshar cannot use its Bite attack.

Sense Weapon (Su): Hounds of Reshar can use their Scent ability to track magic weapons. More powerful magical weapons (In terms of equivelent bonus) have a stronger "scent". Hounds of Reshar in battle will often target an opponent with a weapon stronger than one they're using and, assuming that it's a weapon they can use, upgrade mid-fight if they can incapacitate that opponent. Even with weapons they cannot use, Hounds of Reshar often collect magical weapons and gather them in their lairs. Despite their obvious value, Hounds of Reshar don't inherently value Mouthpick weapons (LoM) any higher than other weapons.

Martial Adept (Ex): Hounds of Reshar have an inborn ability to learn martial maneuvers. They have the same martial maneuver progression as Warblades, except that they may learn maneuvers from any of the nine primary disciplines. They have an initiator level equal to their racial hit dice. Additionally, if trained correctly, Hounds of Reshar may take levels in Warblade or Swordsage even though they have an animal-level of intelligence.

Elves

2019-07-25, 07:22 PM

I tried out a few things for the PDF design. But I'm not a graphic designer and I think any attempt at an ornate style like the 3.5 books will look amateurish, so I'm leaning toward just illustrations and text on white. I think it will look clean and fine.

Sgt. Cookie

2019-07-25, 07:29 PM

That sounds like a plan to me, Elves. What do you think of the Hounds, by the by?

Elves

2019-07-25, 07:46 PM

Wolves holding weapons in their mouths sounds a bit silly to be honest. Maybe swords and daggers for teeth and claws? Two lore bits I can think of, either scouts sent across the world by Reshar on his sword collecting quest (yes he would just use divination spells but we're keeping it a bit sword and sorcery) or dogs who hunt adepts, sent by Mardilkuthor Pwarna and the Adept Hunters.

Sgt. Cookie

2019-07-25, 07:59 PM

Mouthpick weapons already exist, they're in Lords of Madness (Which actually reminds me to make a note about those...). Not to mention dog-like creatures using swords is a big thing in fiction:

https://i.redd.it/d1s1fxdx52331.jpg

And that's not even all of them. Repede from Tales of Vesperia, Hessian Lobo from Grand Order, Cracklefang from World of Warcraft. Dogs with blades is a common enough thing.

TBH, I'm actually MORE surprised that you've never heard of the concept before.

Elves

2019-07-25, 08:09 PM

It's definitely cute in the image, I don't see how they'd swing them around or stab with them though. I guess they could strafe and slice peoples' legs, which could make some sense if they're wild and are bringing down unarmored animals...

Sgt. Cookie

2019-07-25, 08:21 PM

I imagine they'd swing them a lot like this. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6TOL0e0dLI)

Trust me, Elves, you're one of today's lucky 10,000 (https://xkcd.com/1053/) when it comes to the concept.

khadgar567

2019-07-26, 09:31 AM

great wolf sif know that's a dog you dont want to mess with plus in picture was ookami who basicly uses mage hand to hold that sword and legendery pokemon does not need to use as regular weapon since there are tons of moves that dont need actual medium to use ( lucario using bone dance any one or skarmory using blade dance) plus there is always a solid option to wizard did some experiment on subject in some setting.

Elves

2019-07-26, 05:17 PM

Well, if you guys like it.
Is there a lore option for them you prefer Sgt?

Sgt. Cookie

2019-07-26, 05:52 PM

My original lore for them, or at least the lore as far as Martial Scholars believe, is that nearing his death Reshar realised he would not be content with an ordinary burial, so he wandered into the forest where he breathed his last. A short while later, a pack of wolves found his body and fed upon it. Upon taking his essence into themselves, the wolves were changed. The most prominent being the fact that the tops of their heads turned silver. Martial Scholars believe, of course, that this first pack consisted of nine wolves, each of them taking a weapon Reshar carried with him and then parting ways.

One interesting thing about Hounds of Reshar is that they if they interbreed with ordinary wolves, the cubs are always Hounds of Reshar as well. This means that over time, a single Hound of Reshar in an area will slowly cause all wolves to become Hounds of Reshar.

But I will admit that having them be servants of Reshar directly isn't something I actually considered, but I am open to the idea. Hell, technically there's nothing stopping having both ideas as opposing theories as to how they came to exist.

khadgar567

2019-07-27, 02:02 AM

Quiet Wizard

2019-07-27, 12:46 PM

Elves

2019-07-27, 01:02 PM

There are like 50 new disciplines. See this post on page 1. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?581281-The-Age-of-Warriors-(Project-Revived!)&p=23715075#post23715075)

The ones in the post you quoted are the ones that cover other subsystems like psi and incarnum. One possibility is to split that content off into a 3rd TOB volume.

-

On that note, these are the 2 main discs I can't tell if are worth including:
Lightning Fox (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?240364-3-5-The-Flash-Vanguard-Class-amp-Lightning-Fox-Discipline&p=13098590#post13098590) - a little bland and Desert Wind already does speed boosting
Mental Grip (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?138037-Mental-Grip-Psionic-ToB-Discipline) - Already have Sleeping Goddess

Sgt. Cookie

2019-07-27, 03:33 PM

nice fluff but full on zombie apocalypse style sublime way wolfs are bit to much on most settings hell how hard would be the snowball out of the damn thing that your common level one encounter is hound of reshar vs bunch of barely graduated adventures.

These are the full grown boys. To represent a less mature one, just give a normal wolf a couple of Martial Study bonus feats. :P

Elves

2019-07-28, 12:53 AM

What would the planar discipline of the Material Plane be?

That's the one I would have Reshar invent, if he were going to invent one. Just a possibility.

Name brainstorm:

Big Bang (lol)
Starry something, or something of Stars
something planets
something about fighting entropy (that's good since it ties the whole universe to TOB's fighting theme)
something about we're world weary mortals boo hoo hoo...Transient X, or whatever

Not sure. It should be sappy but not overtly so.

Miss Disaster

2019-07-28, 03:33 PM

What would the planar discipline of the Material Plane be?

That's the one I would have Reshar invent, if he were going to invent one. Just a possibility.

Keep in mind, in 3.5 D&D, there's only one Prime Material Plane. Which contains the crystal spheres of many different worlds (Toril, Oerth, etc.) separated by the Phlogiston.

So perhaps a naming reference to crystal spheres or the Phlogiston?

Sgt. Cookie

2019-07-28, 03:50 PM

Miss Disaster

2019-07-28, 07:23 PM

That's not actually true. Manual of the Planes talks about how you can use the Plane of Shadow to access alternative Material Planes. Faerun and Greyhawk, for example, are different material planes, but they share the same Plane of Shadow.

Ah, yes - you're right. I'm thinking of both 2e (Planeswalker Handbook) and 5e (PHB). Which does map to what I mentioned earlier.

Sereg

2019-07-29, 03:48 PM

Weighty Matter for the prime material discipline.

Elves

2019-07-29, 04:51 PM

That's a cute possibility, I like it.

I haven't got time right now to do the mechanics, but here's a [rough] example of what I was imagining for the fluff, as a conclusion to the Reshar story:

The Material Plane, or mortal world, is a dramatic plane that consists of a single gigantic explosion. Over time the explosion will wear out and fade into infinite asymptotic tedium. Existence on this plane is inherently combative because its main law is inevitable degradation, so you’re always fighting entropy in various forms to prevent it from claiming you.

As a result, the plane’s inhabitants have created many diverse fighting styles. The blademaster Reshar studied them all with interest, and mastered many, though he preferred to think of himself as a scholar and only put them to violent use when needed — despite which, he clearly did think such practice was important and necessary, since he did much to spread martial knowledge across his world.

After his eventual ascension, Reshar, now in a much more distant form, sought to belatedly complete the task everyone had expected of him on earth: the invention of a new discipline that would incorporate all his knowledge. In his ascended state he had gained some insight into the nature of his home plane, so he decided to use these glimpses of its workings to try and create or channel its signature style, like the outsiders had done for their planes long ago.

The crystal spheres are maybe something to reference in a maneuver.

Sereg

2019-08-01, 11:01 PM

Maybe a lot of manuevers could be about gravity, brute force, starlight, space, mortality, electricity and fire, and chemical reactions.

Anyway, I have been thinking about a couple of ideas.

Firstly, how about a feat that grants your familiar/animal companion/mount/psycrystal/dark companion/wild cohort etc. the ability to use a manuever and/or stance?

Secondly, remember how new milliatary recruits are stereotypically called "maggots"? I was thinking of an initiating monster that resembles a giant maggot (Diminutive). Naturally, it becomes a giant, initiating fly (small?).

DracoDei

2019-08-11, 08:54 PM

Just popping in long enough to say that while I am not keeping up with this thread at the moment, I still intend to catch up and start working on this again.

EDIT: Regarding the Hounds, a third theory (and perhaps even the truth):
Reshar was served by the Hounds in life, and they were the only ones to accompany him on his final journey... if often only from a distance. Having heard of the fall of his Temple, and with his disciples not gathering together independent of a mere place, which all wise men know to be of paltry meaning compared to the people who fill that placed, he decided to leave his final legacy to the wolves, for wolves may form packs and fight, but lone wolves will alway be the exception rather than the rule... and more-so for these faithful ones who had already gained from his spirit by osmosis. He mediated with them, sending his last wishes into their minds before he shed his mortal form with will and intent. It was in accordance with this that the partook of his flesh, and thus made his spirit something that would never fade form them as long as wolves cry out to each-other in the dark of night.

So... basically: BOTH!

EDIT^2: I will confirm that wolves wielding swords is a desirable thing.

Elves

2019-08-12, 12:16 PM

Good to hear Draco. Doing the Falling Anvil legacy wep would be great. There's an incomplete cooking discipline, Adamant Chef (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?175066-3-5-The-Adamant-Cuisine-Discipline), which might be worth including for a laugh. Frying Pan of Doom could go there while Vlax's Rubber Chicken could be FA. (I know Vlax is no longer involved but it has a nice ring to it.)

I did see that you finished your faultlines btw.

---

Here's how I'm intending for this project to progress once I have time to get to it again:

1) Finishing the mechanical content. Only a few things left:
- Shield discipline
- Create the composite antimagic and incarnum disciplines from the multiple extant ones
- Finalize and edit the archery disciplines

- Make sure the new base classes have PrC support
- Complete and balance the 4 base classes, I'm at fault here for leaving key parts of poet and animist unfinished
- The 9 swords soulknife prc where you summon floating swords was cool, but the person who was going to do it vanished.

- Finish the last few legacy weapons (for Dancing Leaf, Infinite Torment, Ninefold Damnation, Falling Anvil, and the archery disciplines).

2) Getting all the material QAed and PEACHed, hopefully with help from people up on the main 3.5 forum (maybe via a beta document). This is the biggest part since there's a lot of content, so it'll probably take a few months.

3) While QA is going on, getting all the images. In the case of the realistic version it's hard to find images that aren't cartoony and that fit the 3.5 aesthetic (example (https://i.imgur.com/efuUq68.jpg)).

For the stick version, a lot of images are needed since they're less centerpieces and more ornaments. Have most but still a few things missing. Let me know if anyone here is/was an OOTS avatar maker or is competent in Inkscape.

- high res iconic animist
- high res iconic warlord
- high res iconic poet

- discipline user: stone dragon
- discipline user: white raven
- discipline user: army of one
- discipline user: fool's grip (improvised weapon)
- discipline user: soothed beast (peacemaker)
- discipline user: wyrm's might (person with dragon-shaped aura)
- discipline user: quicksilver aegis
- discipline user: falling anvil (comedic)
- discipline user: crystalline optics
- discipline user: shattered glass
- discipline user: march of aeons

- PRC: adept hunter (hates martial adepts)
- PRC: firebrand (fiery, passionate controversial leader)
- PRC: knight of the word
- PRC: master of one (convey a focused specialist in one discipline)
- PRC: spellfire banisher
- PRC: unveiled dragon

- High res chapter header image for legacy weapons chapter.
- High res chapter header image for errata chapter (pref. cartoon with dialogue, maybe IHS joke).
4) And then formatting the pdf doc.

There's also the fluff/setting chapter which I have yet to write. Again the goal is for this not to be just an Oriental Adventures setting.

sage20500

2019-09-11, 09:36 PM

Sereg

2019-09-12, 12:14 AM

Right. I was going to make a feat. How does this look?

Martial Companion
Prerequisites: Ability to perform at least one manuever. A familiar/psycrystal/special mount/animal companion/dark companion/wild cohort. 5 ranks in Handle Animal and Martial Lore

Benefit: You may teach your companion a manuever you know. They may initiate the manuever once per encounter. If you know or later learn a stance, you may also teach them a stance.

Special: If you have more than one companion, you may teach each a different manuever and or stance, but may not teach the same companion more than one manuever or more than one stance. If you are riding your companion and/or they have Share Spells, each of you benefits from the other's stance and/boost in addition to your own.

Thoughts?

Elves

2019-09-12, 11:35 AM

Not sure if it's too late for you to consider adding anything else to the project; but I was wondering if I could submit one of my homebrew disciplines for potential consideration? I posted this to the compilation thread of all ToB homebrew about a year ago but I don't think the original author was keeping up with the thread anymore because they never added it to the list on the front page; I've been using it in a Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil game thats been going on for the past 3 years and its been so far pretty fun to use and easily distinguishable from some of the other fan made disciplines

Winter's Edge (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1izsYEfXS_MU38WAgWGXx77kkxJTphZV5uCRMQQjIE2M/edit?usp=sharing)

Thanks for the link. I do think that we're overrunning on disciplines already, and if a new one were to be included I think it should be one that provides a specific function like hybriding with another subsystem or serving a neglected combat style, instead of just being elementally themed. If you want to take on one of the pieces of content we still need though (see Task Board, page 1 post 2) that would be great.

Right. I was going to make a feat. How does this look?

Martial Companion
Prerequisites: Ability to perform at least one manuever. A familiar/psycrystal/special mount/animal companion/dark companion/wild cohort. 5 ranks in Handle Animal and Martial Lore

Benefit: You may teach your companion a manuever you know. If you know or later learn a stance, you may also teach them a stance.

Special: If you have more than one companion, you may teach each a different manuever and or stance. If you are riding your companion and/or they have Share Spells. Each of you benefits from the other's stance in addition to your own.

Good idea. Probably you were intending this but I would explicitly say 1/encounter. The other thing is to add in a one per creature clause to avoid abuse by ubermount builds.

Maybe stance and maneuver for companion should be separate feats. Not sure. Probably fine as is.

-------------------------------

I did some new rakshasa: two new types and four unique "rakshasa lords" (still have 2 of those to stat out and some fluff to write). Document link (WIP). (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1w2Bq8qIy9m_g6rGikk1rTLQJOjfiBPvXSlTjtN9rYCI/edit?usp=sharing) These bring the new monster list to a satisfying close I think. Incarnum crossover stuff also coming. Summer hiatus over so I'm adding to this project again.

Sereg

2019-09-12, 11:04 PM

Elves

2019-09-13, 09:39 AM

Sure, though I would keep it as generic as possible. It's a little obnoxious when PrCs like Hathran have setting specific stuff in their name and powers.

Possible power ideas:

- Form Lock: force a subject to stay in a shapeshifted form (tricky part is not making its primary use be extending polymorph effects). The fluff would be you identify a shapeshifted raksha and then Form Lock it to prevent it from assuming its more powerful native shape.

- Stuff relating to samsara, worldly cycles or something. You could theme the class to have powers that oppose "hate", "vengefulness", "vanity" and so on, since those themes could tie together the Shadow Tiger horde, the rakshasa, and other enemies the character faces.

Sereg

2019-09-13, 10:43 AM

Cool. I will work on that. I did think fluff relating to the temple was still appropriate for this setting, but I do confess irritation at setting specific fluff locking people out of a class.

Elves

2019-09-13, 11:31 AM

Cool idea: use b&w Chinese-style ink images for Shadow Hand manuevers. Example:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/67/5c/73/675c731949322400394a59ff2669bbe9.jpg

Miss Disaster

2019-09-13, 06:38 PM

Thanks. Made suggested changes. I also allowed sharing of boosts (that doesn't make it too Op, right?).

I do appreciate more high ranking unique outsiders. And the redeeming Rakshasa is a fascinating concept. Maybe they undergo metamorphosis upon achieving Good alignment?

Speaking of Rakshasa, I have been wondering about making a prestige class I call Shadow Tiger Slayer. It is for those who hate the Shadow Tiger horde for destroying the temple. They specialise in fighting "Shadow Tigers", which includes Rakshasas, natives of the plane of shadow, those with the incorporeal subtype and anyone in a Shadow Hand or Tiger Claw stance. (They also get access to the other 7 temple disciplines)

Thoughts?This sounds awesome. One idea for you .... rakshasas, as you know, have backwards hands ... it would be cool to see some maneuvers in Shadow Hand & Tiger Claw school to somehow or other have thematic or mechanical reference to their backwards hands.

The backwards hands aspect of rakshasas never seem to get much attention or flavor-spotlighting. So maybe this is a cool way to do it?

Elves

2019-09-14, 05:43 PM

Did a massive and mind-killing image trawl, including raiding the M:TG catalogues of Wayne England and Howard Lyon who illustrated BO9S. Found a few usable things. Still have to find item pictures but that's a whole separate trawl and I'll do it sometime later.

Title image still evasive. In lieu of the traditional fantasy image, something subdued with black martial arts silhouettes could be enough.

Edit: This thread is still getting views so if any of you who pass through have images to recommend please do. Just no cartoons and no "hot babes" style pics.

Heavenblade

2019-09-15, 05:53 AM

How do I apply to make a thing? i will soon submit the Resharian battle-psychic, a pumped up mindblade initiator who focuses on one of the disciplines

khadgar567

2019-09-15, 08:19 AM

How do I apply to make a thing? i will soon submit the Resharian battle-psychic, a pumped up mindblade initiator who focuses on one of the disciplines
Yes please

Elves

2019-09-15, 11:36 AM

How do I apply to make a thing? i will soon submit the Resharian battle-psychic, a pumped up mindblade initiator who focuses on one of the disciplines

Cool, look forward to seeing it. Maybe do it as a soulknife overhaul, since I'm doing a soulborn overhaul, so those will fit together in terms of both providing intersystem synergy. Alternately you could do it as an initiator-psionic gish PRC.

Elves

2019-09-15, 10:54 PM

Blogposting:

A problem I've realized while doing the new maneuvers for the original 9 disciplines is: Desert Wind doesn't really have a defined combat style, other than "I deal fire damage". It makes some gestures at mobility, but other than that one great counter all its attempts at mobility are pretty limp -- and how exactly does mobility synergize with fire damage anyway?

That's why the rush maneuvers Garryl did for that discipline are good, because they tie those two themes together (you move and as you move you strip people of fire resistance). But I'm still left wondering what a Desert Wind specialist's role is.

Let's make Desert Wind be a sort of 4e style controller. Fire effects provide area damage, wind effects provide battlefield control (blowing people apart, creating wind barriers, etc) and of course these two things can combine. And the mobility helps you be where you need to be on the battlefield to do this, since most of these effects are melee triggered.

Sereg

2019-09-16, 01:43 PM

Ugh. I typed up the class and lost it. That took me most of the day. *Sigh*

I'll try again soon.

Heavenblade

2019-09-19, 12:45 PM

Cool, look forward to seeing it. Maybe do it as a soulknife overhaul, since I'm doing a soulborn overhaul, so those will fit together in terms of both providing intersystem synergy. Alternately you could do it as an initiator-psionic gish PRC.

I think that a base class is actually a better idea, because a prc would be a bit too front loaded (PP, maneuvers, special blade powers depending on disciplines, probably bonus feats, some psionic/initiation synergy...there are a lot of things going on there.)

Elves

2019-09-20, 01:59 AM

Fortunately it was easy to locate the fonts they used in the books. Trying to figure out the formatting...it looks like the books may not even have used textboxes which would certainly lighten the workload. Double column 12pt celestia antiqua fits about 900 words per page of full text, which is good but it will be significantly less due to headers, pictures and maneuver formatting. So yes the pagecount is going to be pretty high but we knew that. A little trimming may be necessary to prevent it from being hellishly unwieldy. But as long as it's visually broken up, in contrast to stuff like Dicefreaks' Gates of Hell, it's not a huge problem.

I admit it's kind of charming to see some of this stuff in semi-official looking fonts though.

Heavenblade

2019-09-20, 08:11 AM

In order to create the martial bladeforms (specialized disciplines of the battlemind) I started listing all disciplines, and their associated abilities, power, tactics...and Im not sure about everything, so I'd be glad if you could help me fill the blank things.

White raven - Charisma, leadership, charges, tactics
Shadow hand - sneaking, teleportation, shadows
Diamond mind - mental focus, precise strikes with lots of damage, something else?
Setting sun - battlefield control through forced movement, using the enemy's power against him
Desert wind - high mobility, fire and blasting effects
Stone dragon - Sturdiness, battlefield control, Unbreakable object/unstoppable force theme
Devoted spirit - self buff, heals, resiliency, something more?
Iron heart - Swordsmanship, I guess...? Really need help on that one
Tiger claw - multi attacking, feral strikes - Sacrificing defense for offense

Disclaimer: all abilities will have much cooler names in the next version, this is just a draft

The abilities I was thinking of giving them -

Base chassis/progression is maneuvers and PP progression, no powers (but see below). I consider giving them Discplines/maneuvers in a similar manner to the ardent's mantles, but not sure yet.

3/4 BaB, good will and perhaps ref saves

Martial bladeform - you choose a discipline in the beginning, and it gives you the focus for the rest of the class. You gain a blade that is shaped like one of the discipline's weapons.

Throughout the levels, you gain -

Discipline manifestation, a set of passive abilities related to your discpline that are active for as long as you have psionic focus, and are in a stance from your chosen discipline
Granted powers - a small amount of psionic powers related to the discpline's "theme" that you may prepare and use like martial maneuvers.
Augmentation - you may use PP to augment a maneuver. You can either give it a "general augmentation" (Boost attack/damage/DC/whatever) or a "Specialized augmentation" which gives the maneuver a boost related to the discpline you are specialized in)
Battlemind superiority - the capstone, not sure what to do with that, probably some form of a "psionic super stance"

In addition to these main abilities, I plan on the following support abilities:

Battleburn - a limited amount of times per encounter, you may "waste" a prepared maneuver and gain a number of temporary PP equal to the maneuver's level.

Bonus feats - not sure if needed, but if Ill need to fill levels they are a good way to do so.

Recovery mechanic - something related to expanding psionic focus, perhaps also releasing a burst of discipline related energy/effect in the process.

What do you guys think? I'd really appreciate any feedback and/or help with the discpline themes/tactics list

Thanks in advance!

Elves

2019-09-20, 12:12 PM

In order to create the martial bladeforms (specialized disciplines of the battlemind) I started listing all disciplines, and their associated abilities, power, tactics...and Im not sure about everything, so I'd be glad if you could help me fill the blank things.

White raven - Charisma, leadership, charges, tactics
Shadow hand - sneaking, teleportation, shadows
Diamond mind - mental focus, precise strikes with lots of damage, something else?
Setting sun - battlefield control through forced movement, using the enemy's power against him
Desert wind - high mobility, fire and blasting effects
Stone dragon - Sturdiness, battlefield control, Unbreakable object/unstoppable force theme
Devoted spirit - self buff, heals, resiliency, something more?
Iron heart - Swordsmanship, I guess...? Really need help on that one
Tiger claw - multi attacking, feral strikes - Sacrificing defense for offense

Seems right. Notes:

Desert Wind - battlefield control (wind), area damage (fire), mobility. The wind and fire effects should be things that emit from you or are triggered from where you are, so that it's important to have mobility to get to the right place.

Devoted Spirit - Remember this is the crusader tank discipline, with aggro stuff like iron guard's glare and thicket of blades. It should have more of that stuff.

Diamond Mind - In BO9S this was just kind of the "all the good stuff" discipline, let's focus it on three things: counters, strikes requiring Concentration checks, and finally, forms of tactical control that have yourself at the center, rather than being about affecting enemies primarily. For example, I added a "Mind as Prism" counter that lets you redirect mind-affecting spells or be used as a prism to use certain touch spells at range.

Iron Heart - just cool warblade shenanigans.

Tiger Claw - let's focus more on the general "primal, heedless, bestial rage" theme than on TWF (not that TWF support is bad). A crazy 2h barbarian should be able to specialize in this disc just as well as a twf ranger.

White Raven - should be better the more martials are in your party. Would be nice to add something specifically to help archers too (though not a stance, that's too big of an investment, though it might be good to have a "Lead from Behind" stance for people who are themselves archers or support. I'll do that one.

Stone Dragon vs Devoted Spirit - I'd like these to have alternate tanking styles, with SD trying to physically interpose themselves between allies and enemies and pushing/bashing enemies away -- active tanking -- while DS has a more passive tanking that penalizes opponents for trying to attack anyone but them or get through (as with iron guard's glare and thicket of blades), with their active tanking portion being about self-heals.

Elves

2019-09-20, 08:08 PM

Formatting maneuvers:

https://i.imgur.com/FXmoiLw.png

TOB uses the bottom arrangement, actually with an even heavier indent, but I feel like the lowercase might be easier on the eyes. Opinions?

khadgar567

2019-09-21, 02:35 AM

Formatting maneuvers:

https://i.imgur.com/FXmoiLw.png

TOB uses the bottom arrangement, actually with an even heavier indent, but I feel like the lowercase might be easier on the eyes. Opinions?
both looks good but bolding the lover one in title may help

Heavenblade

2019-09-21, 12:28 PM

So, In short

DW - controller-esque, with fire and wind centred on self+ mobility
Devoted spirit - aggro/passive tanking and some divine flavor
Diamond mind - concentration, counters, centered on self, "smart discipline"
Tiger claw - wild and careless fighting
Stone dragon - active tanking, lots of bullrushing/tripping, making yourself the barrier

I'd like some more explnation of iron heart since I can't think of a unifying mechanichal theme

Elves

2019-09-21, 12:57 PM

Just general "weaponmaster" stuff. It's also the discipline where you'd have flat, no questions asked pluses to hit, damage, and AC. Diamond is fast and alert, Stone is bashy, Tiger is crazy, and Iron is just like generic ultimate sword skill. Cool combat and weapon stunts.

I like the ability name battleburn by the way. Sounds cool yet easy to use in play.

Heavenblade

2019-09-21, 01:08 PM

Ok

I'd try to create a list of psionic powers related to each discipline (probably 5 of levels 1-5) that would be greanted at an appropriate times to the Battlemind, perhaps with a choice of two powers each time.
Ill post the table here when it's complete, along with some other interesting stuff.

Im also now considering the augmentation ability to have two sides - either to augment a power with a "martial" bonus, or a maneuver with a "psionic" one

Elves

2019-09-21, 01:16 PM

Im also now considering the augmentation ability to have two sides - either to augment a power with a "martial" bonus, or a maneuver with a "psionic" one

The TOB variant soulborn, which I'm probably posting later today, is all about empowering maneuvers with essentia, so for the sake of distinction I would leave that to incarnum -- especially because essentia and maneuvers synchronize better because they aren't based on per-day mechanics the way psionic classes are.

Plus you already have battleburn as a way to spend ppoints in combat. So I recommend cutting the augmentation part and just focusing on having the augmentation effects of your new psipowers be useful for an initiator.

Heavenblade

2019-09-21, 02:22 PM

If you think I should focus more on power usage, than I might give them actual psionic progression?

Otherwise, it might be too limited...

Edit-like, currently, they get like 5 powers or something...but Im afraid more than that is game breaking with the maneuvers

Edit 2- actually the plan was to waste maneuvers in order to gain PP, but I guess I could revise it into something else (perhaps make them waste PP for the active part of the manifestation)

Elves

2019-09-21, 03:07 PM

I just don't think the all-day, as-much-as-you-want maneuver system harmonizes particularly well with a daily store of power points, if we're talking about using pp to empower maneuvers. Spending maneuvers to gain power points, on the other hand, is a great system because it increases compatibility between these two modes, but of course has a lot of potential to be OP especially with multiclassing so you would need to pull it off right.

Another possibility is getting pp by hitting an enemy with a strike or something.

Have you looked at this psionic TOB discipline? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?98409-Sleeping-Goddess-Discipline)

Heavenblade

2019-09-21, 03:21 PM

Yeah, I saw the discipline.

Point is, that if we focus so much on the power point side, and then only give them little amount of powers...

I think I'll make the transition back into a prc. Give up PP, and focus on blade progression, psi-focus mechanics, and a few powers that can be prepared as maneuvers

Elves

2019-09-21, 04:04 PM

Either way is fine. A PRC is less work I'm sure than drawing up a bunch of new powers. If PRC, I would throw in a thing of it advancing your mind blade for soulknives.

Elves

2019-09-22, 11:36 AM

Alright, moment of truth:

To parchment background or not to parchment background?

(This isn't a real page just an example.)

https://i.imgur.com/MyBkwnv.png

There is one problem this raises: A lot of the images I'd like to use are big square blocks, which look absolutely hideous if placed against a naturalistic background like this.

DracoDei

2019-09-24, 04:12 PM

This is another "I'm not dead yet!" post. I am PLANNING to send a PM asking for some of my old threads to be unlocked so I can repost them with fixed tables and such. [EDIT^2]Reposted but tables not fixed. (made one visible where it wasn't before)[/EDIT^2] This would include Falling Anvil.

Blogposting:

A problem I've realized while doing the new maneuvers for the original 9 disciplines is: Desert Wind doesn't really have a defined combat style, other than "I deal fire damage". It makes some gestures at mobility, but other than that one great counter all its attempts at mobility are pretty limp -- and how exactly does mobility synergize with fire damage anyway?

That's why the rush maneuvers Garryl did for that discipline are good, because they tie those two themes together (you move and as you move you strip people of fire resistance). But I'm still left wondering what a Desert Wind specialist's role is.

Let's make Desert Wind be a sort of 4e style controller. Fire effects provide area damage, wind effects provide battlefield control (blowing people apart, creating wind barriers, etc) and of course these two things can combine. And the mobility helps you be where you need to be on the battlefield to do this, since most of these effects are melee triggered.
Don't know if Desert Wind has "Wind" as a theme in ToB, but you could add it I think. My initial gut reaction to BFC was "sounds off-theme", and with the flames from say, Salamander's Charge not persisting, I can't see it having that theme, but changing that would be easy I guess? I almost feel like Stone Dragon emulating Wall of Stone would be more thematic (defense) than Desert Wind emulating Wall of Fire.

Ugh. I typed up the class and lost it. That took me most of the day. *Sigh*

I'll try again soon.
My condolences... :smalleek:

Fortunately it was easy to locate the fonts they used in the books. Trying to figure out the formatting...it looks like the books may not even have used textboxes which would certainly lighten the workload. Double column 12pt celestia antiqua fits about 900 words per page of full text, which is good but it will be significantly less due to headers, pictures and maneuver formatting. So yes the pagecount is going to be pretty high but we knew that. A little trimming may be necessary to prevent it from being hellishly unwieldy. But as long as it's visually broken up, in contrast to stuff like Dicefreaks' Gates of Hell, it's not a huge problem.

I admit it's kind of charming to see some of this stuff in semi-official looking fonts though.
Are you thinking of physically printing this?

If so, I need to PM you about a charity project I am working on an could use anything you learn about getting a good print (especially in the area of durability).

If not, remember that electrons are basically free, where-as paper, binding, and full-color ink cost money.

EDIT:
1.) Rest of the AoE Stone Dragon "charge up for ambush etc" maneuvers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?582822-(ToB)-(Maneuver)-Faultline-Maneuver(s)-for-Stone-Dragon-(P-E-A-C-H-)&p=24166191#post24166191) posted. It has been long enough since I wrote them and I posted them so quickly (so as not to get bitten by procrastination again) that I don't know if they are properly edited. A double-check would be especially useful.

2.) Got Falling Anvil thread unlocked (along with some other threads not related to this project). Hopefully I will get that copy-pasted over to a new thread fairly quickly. [EDIT^2] Copy Paste and making visible a broken version of a small, but very important table done[/EDIT^2] Once the copy-over of all the threads is done, I will make editing Falling Anvil the priority among them.

Does anyone happen to remember if there were any other locked threads that ARE relevant to this project that I wanted to copy over to fix tables and such?

Elves

2019-09-24, 05:52 PM

Are you thinking of physically printing this?

Oh, god no. No, the length concern is just about where a variety bag of contents becomes a big mush. We're a little bit over the line right now but not so much.

Does anyone happen to remember if there were any other locked threads that ARE relevant to this project that I wanted to copy over to fix tables and such?

Not that I know. I'd lean towards posting things anew anyway.

----

Any feelings on parchment background texture vs plain white background?

The example above with how the different elements look isn't final by any means, it could be made to look better (better table color, thicker top text), and that awkward composition wouldn't be used. Here's how I see the con vs pro:

- Con: Could look amateurish/sloppy/cluttered/harder to read; limits the color palette; strongly restricts the kinds of illustrations that can be used, and many others will need crop jobs; more work in general.

- Pro: could look nicer/feel more real.

Here's how a table would look on white:

https://i.imgur.com/wqj6MBX.png

DracoDei

2019-09-24, 06:04 PM

Any feelings on parchment background texture vs plain white background?

IMHO:
Assuming it is easy enough to change later and cropping is also not hard: Go with parchment for now.
If hard to change, play it safe and go with plain white.

Note to self: Edit links in my extended signature to account for re-posts. Maybe include links in reposts to appropriate sections of comment threads for things that started out as contest entries... and, of course, fix the tables.

Alabenson

2019-09-24, 06:31 PM

If you're still accepting homebrew for this, I have a class that may fit called the Ascetic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?388309-The-Ascetic-(PEACH)). Its essentially a hybrid caster/initiator base class that was meant to be a more playable Healer.

Elves

2019-09-24, 06:51 PM

Could be good since it adds an initiator with a new party role. A while ago I posted this pacifist discipline (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?583376-A-Martial-Discipline-For-Pacifists-(PEACH)) -- could it be a good fit? Changes are certainly possible. (And probably req'd for balance in any case, never edited it.)

Elves

2019-10-22, 08:03 PM

I haven't posted this incarnum crossover stuff (class/discipline/feats) because of certain finicky questions.

For example, does the dynamic of investing essentia into maneuvers to empower them actually work well? Presumably the tension here is centered on swift actions -- reinvesting essentia to max out the maneuvers you're about to use, vs using boosts and counters. Boosts, unlike counters, are in direct competition vs reinvesting, so the boosts have to be made especially powerful or no one in this class would take them.

Then there's the class's refresh mechanic. A refresh action that lets you reinvest your essentia as part of that action sounds good, but by letting you reinvest along with refreshing, you remove any gameplay/planning reward for not reinvesting in between when a maneuver is used up and when you refresh. That indicates that a swift action refresh to put refresh and reinvest in direct competition would be a good idea, but then a swift action refresh could be unbalanced from a combat perspective and puts even more pressure on the counters and boosts.

So it's just finicky.

There's one question that has stopped me from posting the soulborn redo too. Full meldshaping plus initiating (albeit limited to the one incarnum discipline) is too complicated for a single class and spreads their essentia too thin (though it does provide a source of competition for essentia with maneuvers that could deincentivize the strategy of just maxing out the essentia capacity of whatever maneuvers you're about to use). So I limited their normal meldshaping to a single unique blademeld slot. But it feels inelegant to retcon their meld access when there are soulborn-only soulmelds in MOI, so I just don't know. I guess I'll post what I have and solicit PEACH.

The errata and FAQ are both done though.

khadgar567

2019-10-23, 10:23 AM

I haven't posted this incarnum crossover stuff (class/discipline/feats) because of certain finicky questions.

For example, does the dynamic of investing essentia into maneuvers to empower them actually work well? Presumably the tension here is about reinvesting essentia to max out the maneuvers you're about to use vs using boosts and counters. Boosts, unlike counters, are in direct competition vs reinvesting, so the boosts have to be made especially powerful or no one in this class would take them.

Then there's the class's refresh mechanic. A refresh action that lets you reinvest your essentia as part of that action sounds good, but by letting you reinvest along with refreshing, you remove any gameplay/planning reward for not reinvesting in between when a maneuver is used up and when you refresh. That indicates that a swift action refresh to put refresh and reinvest in direct competition would be a good idea, but then a swift action refresh could be unbalanced from a combat perspective and puts even more pressure on the counters and boosts.

So it's just finicky.

There's one question that has stopped me from posting the soulborn redo too. Full meldshaping plus initiating (albeit limited to the one incarnum discipline, the one whose maneuvers allow essentia investment) is too complicated for a single class and spreads their essentia too thin (although it does provide a source of competition for essentia with maneuvers that could deincentivize the strategy of just maxing out the essentia capacity of whatever maneuvers you're about to use). So I limited their normal meldshaping to a single unique blademeld slot. But it feels inelegant to retcon their meld access when there are soulborn-only soulmelds in MOI, so I just don't know. I guess I'll post what I have and solicit PEACH.

The errata and FAQ are both done though.
well that stuff is always to finicky but there is incarmum tome of battle cross over class and discipline on the shores you guys never threat called rajah and radiant dawn on pathfinder i am gonna post link to spheres wiki for both of them
rajah class (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/rajah)
radiant dawn discipline
(http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/radiant-dawn-martial-discipline)

Elves

2019-11-07, 02:20 PM

Incarnum crossover stuff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?602176-Incarnum-Tome-of-Battle-crossover-soulborn-redo-new-melds-new-discipline-(PEACH)&p=24247572#post24247572). Would appreciate help balancing this and making it work well, though I know there's a bunch there to read.

Elves

2019-11-09, 07:24 PM

Errata (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VmRQ2GqQufIeE3fWAh8Gvg5ydaP9moZTybiWlJS9BiM/edit?usp=sharing) (edited and compressed version of Minmaxboards' errata) and FAQ (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1y1i0Ud1AZFtzHanDIulHmqcLE5WDedlhMmCCncEPuYg/edit?usp=sharing) to go at the end of the book. Pretty dry, just posting it so it's here.

Avalon®

2019-11-11, 02:05 AM

*Pops in*

Huh... Nice to see this project being revived.

Can't wait to see it finished after nearly a decade now. :smallbiggrin:

Elves

2019-11-12, 05:48 PM

Can't wait to see it finished after nearly a decade now. :smallbiggrin:

I wanted to have it ready for the 10 year anniversary which will be Dec 6, but that's unlikely now since I have much less time for this stuff than when I started the thread (basically underestimated the workload). May post the plain white "beta" documents on Dec 6 though.

Misc note -- as cool as Pair O'Dice's Abyss and Hell disciplines are, considering instead using Dread Crown (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?76218-Dread-Crown-for-Fiendish-Martial-Adepts-Discipline%22) to represent both planes, since the Good planes all only get Golden Saint. It saves effort on making legacy weps and on converting Dread Crown to an epic discipline. Not sure.

Elves

2019-11-14, 11:10 PM

Since maneuver save DCs will be made scaling, I'm thinking whether to have them be based off discipline or based off class.

Path of War went the second route. It's simpler. But there is merit to the other way. It allows stronger thematics and more variance. For example: Lightning Fox (the speed discipline) maneuvers could have Dex-based DCs; there wouldn't be a risk of inappropriate-seeming DCs; it makes it less boring than "pump your one save stat". And it's more in line with what TOB does.

In some cases you would have two eligible scores so it's not a turnoff.

Just something to consider.

Elves

2019-11-16, 10:41 AM

Editing pass 1 on the sublime swashbuckler (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?134167-Martial-Swashbuckler-ToB-base-class)...

Full class table (image) (https://i.imgur.com/kPTp5gV.png)

1 - Personal style, weapon finesse
2 - Signature move
3 - Grace +1
4 - Dodge bonus +1
5 - Swaggering strike
6 - Signature strike II
7 - Acrobatic charge
8 - Quick recovery
9 - Dodge bonus +2
10 - Signature combo
11 - Grace +2
12 - Panache, signature strike III
13 - Acrobatic skill mastery
14 - Dodge bonus +3
15 -
16 - ? (evasion?)
17 -
18 - Signature strike IV
19 - Dodge bonus +4, grace +3
20 - Dual strike

Increase Reflex save to good. Add Sleight of Hand and Spot to class skill list.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Swashbucklers are proficient with simple and martial weapons, light armor, and bucklers, as well as with pistols, muskets, and revolvers.

Maneuvers: A swashbuckler has automatic access to the Black Rain and Oncoming Storm disciplines, plus two more disciplines as a result of his personal style (see below).

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered swashbuckler level thereafter, a swashbuckler can choose to learn a new maneuver in place of one he already knows, just as other martial adepts can.

Maneuvers Readied: A swashbuckler readies his maneuvers by exhibiting fancy bladework, taunting his opponents, and generally showing off and “psyching himself up” for at least 5 minutes.

A swashbuckler can recover his expended maneuvers (except signature moves; see below) by taking the total defense action, during which he effortlessly parries his opponents’ attacks and bemoans their lack of skill.

Every time a swashbuckler successfully feints against, trips, or disarms an opponent, he regains a single signature move of his choice (see below).

Personal Style (Ex): Swashbucklers are deft bravados who pride themselves on their unique personal fighting styles. You may choose two identities from the list below, which each grant an additional discipline and an associated benefit:

• Avenger: Striking from the shadows and getting the drop on opponents, this type of swashbuckler metes out swift justice and makes bloody ends of vendettas. The swashbuckler gains access to the Shadow Hand discipline, adds Hide to his list of class skills, and gains one free manipulation skill trick for which he qualifies at 3rd, 9th, and 18th level.
• Crowd-Pleaser: This type of swashbuckler is expert at turning his enemies’ strength on its head; his whirling redirections and tendency to humiliate much larger opponents make him a favorite of crowds and a nag to foes. The swashbuckler gains access to the Setting Sun discipline and may add his Charisma modifier to grapple checks, to a maximum of +1 per swashbuckler level.
• Duelist: This type of swashbuckler is a master fencer. He executes every parry, lunge, and strike with immaculate precision, and derides any who cannot do the same. The swashbuckler gains access to the Iron Heart discipline and gains the benefit of Weapon Focus with one Iron Heart weapon.
• Hero: An inspiration to allies, this type of swashbuckler dominates the battlefield with his sheer presence and always seems to have the perfect plan. The swashbuckler gains access to the White Raven discipline and gains one free interaction skill trick for which he qualifies at 3rd, 9th, 15th and 18th level.
• Improviser: Borne into the breast of every situation with only the grease on his heels, this swashbuckler delights in pulling off clever victories with what’s at hand. The swashbuckler gains access to the Fool’s Grip discipline, a +2 bonus to hit with improvised weapons, and a +1 bonus on all untrained skill checks.
• Show-Off: Falling from heights, swinging on chandeliers, and leaping over opponents, this stunting swashbuckler enjoys acrobatic attacks with rapier and dagger. The swashbuckler gains access to the Tiger Claw discipline and gains one free movement skill trick for which he qualifies at 3rd, 9th, 15th and 18th level.

Weapon Finesse (Ex): A swashbuckler gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat at 1st level.

Signature Move (Ex): At 2nd level, a swashbuckler develops his own idiosyncratic style and begins to favor particular strikes over others. Choose a single swashbuckler strike you know with an initiation time of one standard action. You may ready two instances of that maneuver. At 6th, 12th, and 18th level, you gain an additional signature strike.

A second instance of a maneuver readied this way is designated with an obelus and called a signature move. That instance of the maneuver can only be refreshed in one way: when you successfully feint against, trip, or disarm an opponent, you regain a single expended signature move of your choice. Refreshing or readying your maneuvers normally, or using a feat such as Sudden Recovery, is not sufficient to recover an expended signature move. A swashbuckler's technique requires a certain flashiness, which the overuse of their signature moves would defeat.

You can’t pick a 9th level maneuver as a signature strike, nor a maneuver accessed through a feat or item. Your choice of signature strike is permanent; if you cease to know the maneuver you don’t get to reassign it, although if you come back into knowing the maneuver it’s still a signature strike of yours, so long as you still possess the swashbuckler level that let you designate it as such.

Grace (Ex): A swashbuckler gains a +1 competence bonus on Reflex saves at 3rd level. This bonus increases to +2 at 11th level and to +3 at 19th level. A swashbuckler gains this bonus only when unarmored or in light armor with no Armor Check Penalty and carrying no more than a light load.

Dodge Bonus (Ex): At 4th level a swashbuckler receives a +1 dodge bonus to Armor Class. This bonus increases by 1 at 10th and 15th level. A swashbuckler gains this bonus only when unarmored or in light armor with no Armor Check Penalty and carrying no more than a light load.

Swaggering Strike (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a swashbuckler may add his Charisma bonus, if any, to all attacks he makes as part of maneuvers, to a maximum of +1 per two swashbuckler levels. To gain this bonus he must be unarmored or wearing light armor with no Armor Check Penalty and be carrying no more than a light load, since his dramatic movements can’t be impinged.

Acrobatic Charge (Ex): As default swashbuckler.

Quick Recovery (Ex): Starting at 8th level, you may regain an expended signature move as a swift action once per round when you successfully attack a flanked or flat-footed opponent.

Signature Combo: At 10th level, you may initiate one of your signature strikes as a single attack made as part of a full attack action, instead of as a standard action. At 14th level you may initiate a signature strike in place of a single attack of opportunity. However, you may not initiate a signature strike as part of another maneuver.

Panache: A 12th level swashbuckler is an expert when it comes to outwitting his opponents. He may substitute his Charisma modifier for another discipline's key ability modifier when determining the save DC of a maneuver.

Acrobatic Skill Mastery (Ex): At 13th level, a swashbuckler has become a master of flashy acrobatics. He may take 10 on Jump, Balance, and Tumble checks even under stress.

Evasion (Ex)?

Dual Strike: A 20th level swashbuckler has mastered his signature style such that he can strike twice in the time it would take another warrior to strike once. He may initiate one of his readied signature moves at the beginning of his turn as a free action.

- Is the signature move ability good enough? Should you be able to ready a signature strike as many times as you want instead of just twice? Should signature strikes be capped at 7th instead of 8th level maneuvers?

- Swaggering strike -- should it max out at 1 per swashbuckler level instead of 1 per 2 swashbuckler levels?

- What should the 16th level ability be?

DracoDei

2019-11-18, 08:12 AM

Elves

2019-11-18, 11:16 AM

Yep, that's what I decided on. Specific maneuvers can always have nonstandard DCs.

No content update because what I've been doing is the editing and compiling for the "beta" release on the 6th (which will just be through Google Docs). Since the 3.5 forums get more traffic than Homebrew, hopefully that will bring more feedback than threads in this subforum get.

DracoDei, any chance of doing that Frying Pan legacy weapon so I can include it? It doesn't have to be super complicated -- the backstory, three rituals, then a few funny abilities.

Elves

2019-11-21, 12:28 PM

Christ it is dull QAing and editing all this stuff.

(Blogpost) Mechanically, it's made me reflect -- a lot of attempts to empower martials in 3e involve handing out blanket immunities. But those get really repetitive and uninteresting, plus they cut out parts of the game, which isn't fun, nor is combat fun when it's just a contest of saying "no" to each other. So while QAing this I'm trying to think of more interesting ways for people to negate each other. For example, the adept hunter PRC had an anti-Stone Dragon ability that made your DR unpierceable; I replaced it with an aura that threatens to levitate enemies who approach you (because of the Stone Dragon requirement to be on the ground).

Thread visitors: The Task Board post on page 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23715058&postcount=2)is still being updated. Remaining things that you're welcome to jump in on include a dozen remaining legacy weapons (legacy weapon format (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23758313&postcount=77)), three prospective PRCs, and the creation of a shield-based tanking discipline modeled on Path of War's Iron Tortoise (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/iron-tortoise-maneuvers/). Ideas for the new base classes linked in that post are great as well.

Nielspeterdejon

2019-11-22, 09:56 AM

Not bad! I like the original ideas you used here.

Drejzer

2019-11-27, 04:12 AM

Ah, a massive expansion to my favourite book!
Great to see it alive.

DracoDei

2019-11-29, 07:19 AM

DracoDei, any chance of doing that Frying Pan legacy weapon so I can include it? It doesn't have to be super complicated -- the backstory, three rituals, then a few funny abilities.

Unfortunately the rituals are the part I would have the hardest problem with, and the backstory... I'd have to balance ease of coming up with something with not copying the original story it from TOO closely (Copyright and all that...).

Honestly, I'll likely continue to be as flakey about working/posting as I have been. I might improve from that to "erratic" though.

Elves

2019-11-29, 02:36 PM

DracoDei

2019-11-30, 08:56 AM

Okay, well, if you have ideas for individual abilities post them. May have to add the discipline weapons to the playtest thread in a later "batch" anyway -- the 6th is in a week & I want to have the disciplines, classes and prestige classes all ready.

Most of the work involved is just busywork (revision/editing/formatting). The biggest content gap is the poet class. Animist, machinist and warlord will all be ok with some tweaks, but I never finished the poet (link on first page) because it didn't come out well. The class needs to:

- focus on support/buffing
- succeed at being a martial adept while having 1/2 BAB
- have a colorful "imagination" theme
- be bardlike but be themed on language not music

Any fresh mechanical ideas for it?
Note that I haven't looked at the Poet in years, if ever. I do have two ideas, one blindingly obvious once one hears it (and which you may have already thought of), and the other is... a bit of a "waterfall you will need to sort through to find the cup-full that BEST matches what you need"... and I think I will mention something that lies at the intersection area of the two (like on a Viene diagram) :
1.) Poor BAB indicates that they should be doing stuff that requires saves without needing a to-hit, touch attacks flat-footed attacks(maybe?), utilities (movement/mobility, senses), healing, buffing (as you said), counters, and anything else that doesn't require a normal to-hit roll.
2.) Look up the Grace-Gift (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=247637)* and/or Phileotheysia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=528427) in my extended signature for ideas on a 1/2 BAB at-will buffer. You could turn Defensive Strike into a stance or three, and make the swift action abilities into maneuvers, but probably dropping the penalties they inflict on the user in exchange for the loss of mobility created by making them standard action, as well as requiring a refresh mechanic, rather than being TRULY at-will. Do note that those classes aren't so much "walls of text" as "massive citadels of verbage". Although you can probably pare away most of what Defensive Strike does by eliminating all the manifestations/upgrades/feats that can be duplicated with a decent weapon, rather than the "even with a kitchen knife I shall not fail to defend those I cherish" vibe I was going for. Or keep them swift action and/or keep the costs? Certainly Carry the Burden (increase your own load by the weight of an ally including how much they are carrying to grant them gravity-defying effects up to and including Fly) could work as a stance, boost, or miscellaneous maneuver (like with the Earthquake maneuvers: hard to categorize).
* Don't forget to look at the feats I created, both specific to the class, and the "blocker/improved blocker" chain. I only used feats as the mechanic because I didn't realize how many of them, especial past the first few categories, would end up being unique to the class. In retrospect it would probably have been clearer to model them after the rogues special abilities, and include the list of pre-existing feats that each Roman-numeral rank gives you access to as part of that listing.
Intersection.) One thing that I did was that while they ARE a 1/2 BAB class according to their chart, this is somewhat misleading. A common mechanic is that their BAB increases to Full when doing certain things that are "defend others" in nature. The poster-child for this is of course, the iconic ability Defensive Strike which makes the bog-standard AoOs (and actually a SUBSET of them) into a serious deterrent. Another is Weapon Denying Technique (Phileotheysia only I think?) which lets you do sunders/disarms (including variations that debuff natural weapons) with extra bonuses against weapons you have seen harm your allies.

I might be able to make more specific suggestions some other day.

EDIT: Okay, I took a glance at the Poet. No ideas on what you asked about yet (didn't get all the way through, let alone look at the associated disciplines). Do you pick how many maneuvers you are granted, or roll 1d3-1 (and increasing sides to the die at higher levels)? Do you get to pick which maneuvers you are granted, or is that randomly determined? Strike While the Iron is Hot would seem sorta a gimme for strikes and boosts if you get to pick which ones.