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Bjarkmundur
2019-02-26, 04:37 AM
This thread is a continuation of this Chronomancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?581966-Chronomancer-a-Hero-in-Time) thread.

Before I start I want to have a word with you about homebrewing in general.
To me, homebrewing has always been a means of solving problems. I only turn to homebrewing when I feel like it would improve upon my current running game. With that in mind a good homebrew can be defined by how well it solves the problem it was made to solve, how indistinguishable it is from original 5e content, how in line it is with the avarage power level of the game at each level, and extra points are given for clean, simple, and easy-to-read-and-implement features.

Now when that's out of the way, let's get to the alchemy!

My goal today is based on my friend's idea of using his Umbrella Academy Inspiration to make a time travelling fighter. A hero from the future who managed to jump back in time to try to stop the apocalypse.

I looked at a couple of ways to make a martial character with access to very specific spells, but I had problems with every single solution.

1. I don't need so much stuff. Most subclasses and multiclasses give access to a buttload of features, and I only need a couple of spells to make sure the time-manipulator concept is visible.
2. Most subclasses and multiclasses give many uses of low level spells, but little to no uses of higher level spells. Since I only need a handful of very specific spells, this very much works against me. I'm really looking for the 4e versions of daily powers, something powerful and flavourful with limited use.

The Spells found to be the most flavorful are Inflict Wounds (make some age 50 years with a touch), Misty Step (stop time and take a move action), Feather Fall (slow time for the person falling) and Hold Person (freezing an enemy in time).

These are 1st and 2nd Level Spells, but as a comparison a Eldritch Knight or Fighter/wizard multiclass doesn't gain access to them until level 5, but gains a bunch of stuff not needed for this particular Archetype.

My suggestion is to create a simple, but limited, Spells Known and Spell Slot Progression that can be implemented instead of the Fighter Subclass feature. This should allow my fighter to cast his once-per-session time magic, yet function as a fighter on a turn-by-turn basis. By removing the subclass we gain room to add power without changing the balance of a class dramatically. It's just a question of striking the right balance between spells known and Spell slots per level.

I'm gonna go ahead and type something up. If you are in a problem solving mood, or a creative mood, feel free to do the same. I love how different people come up with different solutions to the same problem. Who knows, maybe we'll learn something from each other.

Bjarkmundur
2019-02-26, 04:58 AM
I'm looking at the Battle Master and Eldritch Knight as guidelines on how much I can add to the core fighter without it getting out of hand.

The battlemaster grants Maneuvers with four uses per short rest, with the most powerful maneuver arguably being Riposte. Riposte grants an extra attack when certain conditions are met which deals 1d8 extra damage.
After that the Battle Master mostly gains utility and out of combat features, until the maneuvers gets stronger at 10th level.

The spell slot Progression of an Eldritch Knight shows having four 1st Level Spell slots by the time you gain access to two 2nd level Spell slots, but that isn't until 7th-level. I'm wondering if a can cut all of those numbers down.

How does two 1st level spell slots and one 2nd level of Spell slot at, let's say, 3rd Level, and then progress from there. That means gaining access to spells at the same rate as a wizard, but with extremely limited use.

Then we can grant a single 3rd Level Spell slot at 5th level, and add some fluff at 7th level.

Remember this is for a subclass which only grants very specific known spells.

It's a starting point, but not necessarily 'indistinguishable from 5e official content "

Edit 1:
Courtesy of Kedesh, here's the second draft of the Temporal Knight's spell list:

Cantrips:
Spare The Dying
Mending

1st Level:
Longstrider
Inflict Wounds
Feather Fall
Expeditious Retreat

2nd Level:
Blur
Gentle Repose
Hold Person
Pass without trace
Augury

3rd Level
Haste
Misty Step
Plant Growth
Slow
Edit: it has been brought to my attention that no one in their right mind would pick anything other than haste. So I'm thinking about removing it from the spell list.


4th Level
Private Sanctum
Freedom of Movement
Divination
Dimension Door
Banishment
Blight

5th Level
Raise Dead
Hold Monster
Steel Wind Strike
Swift Quiver

There's a big chance this just ends up looking something like this.

Temporal Power: When your reach 3rd level you can cast Inflict Wounds without expending a spell slot. You must finish a long rest before you can do so again ....

But I feel like that's a waste of a flavourful spell list x)

Bjarkmundur
2019-02-26, 06:03 AM
Temporal Knight
When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you learn to manipulate certain aspects of time to your favor.

The Temporal Knight table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your spells. To cast one of your spells of 1st level or higher, you must expend a slot of the spell's level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest.

You know a number of spells equal to half your level, rounded down, chosen from your spell list. The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.

Additionally, when you gain a level, you can choose one of the spells you know and replace it with another spell from the spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots.

You use your Intelligence as you spellcasting ability.

3rd Level: You gain two 1st Level Spell slots.
5th Level: You gain one 2nd level spell slot
7th Level: You gain one 3rd level spell slot
9th Level: You gain one 4th level spell slot.

JNAProductions
2019-02-26, 12:23 PM
Temporal Knight
When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you learn to manipulate certain aspects of time to your favor.

The Temporal Knight table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your spells. To cast one of your spells of 1st level or higher, you must expend a slot of the spell's level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest.

You know a number of spells equal to half your level, rounded down, chosen from your spell list. The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.

Additionally, when you gain a level, you can choose one of the spells you know and replace it with another spell from the spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots.

3rd Level: You gain two 1st Level Spell slots and one 2nd level spell slot.
5th Level: You gain one 3rd level spell slot
7th Level: You gain one 4th level spell slot
9th Level: You gain one 5th level spell slot.

I'm sorry, but why does a FIGHTER SUBCLASS have nearly full casting progression?

They get spell slots at the same level as Wizards and Sorcerers, just less of them.

Edit: And it doesn't matter if the spells known are highly restricted if you have gems like Haste on there.

Bjarkmundur
2019-02-26, 02:22 PM
I'm reading between the lines there, correct me if I'm wrong.

"You solved your problem, alright, but you may have overshot it a little. These are my suggested changes

1. You are gaining too much power too quickly. Yous should delay the spell progression at least a couple of levels.
2. Haste is a really good spell and could benefit from being removed from the spell list and instead given as a Once-per-day feature at a higher level.
3. Spell Slot quantity isn't nearly as important when all you need is a single spell to win an encounter. "

I'll edit the subclass just to have everything in one place.
I also made it clear that Intelligence is the spellcasting ability, which means a Temporal Knight most likely have a lower success rate than a caster, and will have to sacrifice some points during characte creation.

This gives us a worse-statted warrior who sacrifices half his spell slots, all his cantrips and some bonus features in order to be able to casts spells from a very limited spells known list with the same progression as The Paladin, another heavily armored class with spells.

We getting closer toward something not totally broken?

Vogie
2019-02-26, 04:06 PM
I don't think you want spells for this - I think you'd want to collect the skills that you'd want the Chronomancer to do, and then let them do those things.

Like you've said, if you get a spell list together with the progression you want, it's going to both be broken and have unused spells because there are low points.

For example, my Chronomancer Monk archetype (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23315827&postcount=1) and Chronomancer Rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?571232-Roguish-Archetype-based-on-LoL-s-Ekko-amp-Overwatch-s-Tracer-Timebreaker-(PEACH)) uses the mechanics of Slow, Haste and Misty Step, without giving either class a spellcasting feature:

Both classes get the "time in a bottle" feature, allowing them to store advantage for later as "potential" . This allows Rogues to choose to not sneak attack now to enable sneak attacks later, while a monk can stun a target, then use flurry of blows to transfer Ki into advantage.
Each blow the monk lands would induce a single portion of Slow (which normally provides 7 effects).
The Monk can "jump into the future" by skipping their turn by vanishing, then Pop back into reality with haste
The Rogue can expend potential to Misty Step


So if you want a fighter subclass that has access to Haste, Misty Step & Inflict Wounds, then make a fighter that has those types of spells in their features.

You could use the Battlemaster, Arcane Archer Or UA Monster Hunter Fighter subclasses as a model, or spread around the power in individual features.

Bjarkmundur
2019-02-26, 05:05 PM
I actually read your homebrewes, and they look amazing. I especially love the shared potential feature, making them easier to wrap your head around because of the common feature.


.... But don't you see the potential?
If we can find a balanced version of this homebrew, the possibilities are endless! Ever had a new player with an oddly specific character request? Have you never read a new comic and thought "I want to play THAT".

If we find a way to give a martial character five to seven specific spells over the firsr third of his levels, we can make whatever we want to!

Want to be a bomb rogue? Then play a rogue but instead of a subclass you take five bomb-like spells. Want to play Bane? Then take a fighter and give him enhance ability and enlarge? Want to play HawkEye or Green Arrow, then play a fighter and slap some acid and Web spells to simulate utility arross. Want to play a vampire? Pick a rogue and add animate dead and charm person, and even vampiric touch. Your girlfriend wants to play a Wood Elf Archer that can talk to animals, has a pet cat and whenever she gets mad her eyes turn red? Give her a Rogue with Talk to Animals, Conjure Beasts and Find Familiar.

We can make THOUSANDS of character concepts, if we just make a "daily power" progression.

Homebrewes are almost always case by case, so if it turns out a single spell is to powerful, explain it to the player and pick another spell.

Come on guys, just look at the 7th level fighter and think if it's okay that instead of tripping every enemy every encounter, he gets to cast one spell every encounter at various power levels.

Besides, I think no homebrew ever goes through playtesting without a couple of tweaks. It only has to be "beta viable" to be perfectly fne.

Composer99
2019-02-26, 05:38 PM
If you want earlier access to certain spells than you'd get as an eldritch knight, say, I think you'd be better served with one of the following, rather than a standard spellcasting feature.

1) The ability to cast your limited spells known twice in between long rests, say. Maybe improve to three times in between long rests at 15th level. (This makes it closer to toned-down warlock casting.)

2) Something like the shadow or 4e monk ability to cast spells using ki, only with a more limited capacity to do so because you're not consuming a resource granted by your base class.

At any rate, the spellcasting progression suggested in the original post is wildly inappropriate for a fighter subclass IMO.

Bjarkmundur
2019-02-26, 05:56 PM
If you want earlier access to certain spells than you'd get as an eldritch knight, say, I think you'd be better served with one of the following, rather than a standard spellcasting feature.

1) The ability to cast your limited spells known twice in between long rests, say. Maybe improve to three times in between long rests at 15th level. (This makes it closer to toned-down warlock casting.)

2) Something like the shadow or 4e monk ability to cast spells using ki, only with a more limited capacity to do so because you're not consuming a resource granted by your base class.

At any rate, the spellcasting progression suggested in the original post is wildly inappropriate for a fighter subclass IMO.

Is "each spell can be cast twice per long rest" better than "you gain spell slots,and therefor only cast your strongest spell once, or cast lower level spells more often using higher level spell slots ". I thought the limited casting would be better if it were tapered towards higher level spells, meaning that it's okay to cast weak spells multiple time, especially if you're trading off your ability to cast more impactful spells.
Is there such a huge difference between the fighter and the paladin that spellcasting at the same rate is inherently broken, even dispite the severe lack of slots to fuel said spellcasting.

Then again, I could just modify the paladin's spell list to achieve a similar effect, and that way I even get to keep a normal subclass and get twice the amount of Spell slots. Is that a cleaner solution, given that the power level of the spells on the list is kept in check?

If so, then why?

As of now I know I was wrong in my initial ideas of the subclass, so the quest for "how was I wrong, and how wrong was I" has begun.

If at first you don't succeed, learn what you can from your failure.

Bjarkmundur
2019-02-26, 07:04 PM
Due to lack of coherent answers, explanations and why-how's, I've been reading up on subclasses.

Barbarian gains an extra attack whilst raging. Seems pretty strong.

But at the same time the Rogue archetypes (extept for AR) give either mostly give utility or conditional bonuses.

Paladin gets a couple of different spells added to his spell lisr, I might use that as a reference. If I would do so I'd probably delay the 3rd spell slot to level 9 and add a flavourful feature at 7th level instead. But since I'm pretty sure moy original idea needs to be scrapped completely, I'm not sure it's worth the hassle. Besides, it actively works against my hopes for Front loaded spell accessibility.

Seems like subclasses have a pretty varied effect on the power between classes.

Interesting...

Composer99
2019-02-26, 08:02 PM
Is "each spell can be cast twice per long rest" better than "you gain spell slots,and therefor only cast your strongest spell once, or cast lower level spells more often using higher level spell slots ". I thought the limited casting would be better if it were tapered towards higher level spells, meaning that it's okay to cast weak spells multiple time, especially if you're trading off your ability to cast more impactful spells.
Is there such a huge difference between the fighter and the paladin that spellcasting at the same rate is inherently broken, even dispite the severe lack of slots to fuel said spellcasting.

Then again, I could just modify the paladin's spell list to achieve a similar effect, and that way I even get to keep a normal subclass and get twice the amount of Spell slots. Is that a cleaner solution, given that the power level of the spells on the list is kept in check?

If so, then why?

As of now I know I was wrong in my initial ideas of the subclass, so the quest for "how was I wrong, and how wrong was I" has begun.

If at first you don't succeed, learn what you can from your failure.

What I meant was something like a pool of spells known, and you get two "spell slots", for lack of a better term, to cast them, recovering expended uses when you finish a long rest. I guess I was ambiguous? If so, my apologies.

With that in place, you could get something like 2-3 spells known to cast at 3rd level, and add a spell known every few levels, whether a fixed option or choosing from a list.

-----

I'm waiting to get a cast put on my arm, so I don't think I can get into weeds about paladin vs. fighter subclass spellcasting, except to say that fighter subclasses should be measured against other fighter subclasses rather than seeing how they compare against the paladin base class.

Bjarkmundur
2019-02-27, 02:43 AM
Flux Capacitor
Starting at 3th level, you can spend 8 hours creating a Flux Capacitor that stores Temporal magic. If you create a new Flux Capacitor, the previous one ceases to function.

Your Flux Capacitor Stores Charges use to create Temporal Anomalies. At 3rd level you gain two charges. You gain additional charges at 5th, 7th and 9th level.

Temporal Anomalies
You know how to create Temporal Anomalies. Pick one Anomaly from the list below. You learn additional Anomalies at 5th, 7th and 9th Level.


Then I'll make a list of utility effects to choose from, and maybe a time surge when action surge is used, and some other generally useful things.

Thanks for all your help guys :)

Vogie
2019-02-27, 09:26 AM
If we can find a balanced version of this homebrew, the possibilities are endless! Ever had a new player with an oddly specific character request? Have you never read a new comic and thought "I want to play THAT".

You've literally described all of my homebrew. It's all in the Sig. I haven't watched the show you did, though, so I'm just using your descriptions.


If we find a way to give a martial character five to seven specific spells over the firsr third of his levels, we can make whatever we want to! .

You can do that - sure. It just won't be balanced, or fun for anyone else to play alongside with. You're locking yourself into the MarySue/Superman mindset where you want to be smashing through planets and aging people to death at level 5. You can either build your 'brew from the top down, or the bottom up, or by using substitution:

Top Down - Picture what the ultimate, level 20 version of the character would look like, and work backwards from there.
Bottom Up - Focus on what decisions would turn a core class character into one of these.
Substitution - Use two things that are similar in existing classes and move them around. Such as a Ranger with the Paladin Spell List, or a Eldritch Knight with a Druid Spell list instead of the Wizard one.




We can make THOUSANDS of character concepts, if we just make a "daily power" progression.
There is no daily power progression in 5e, the daily/encounter powers was a 4e mechanic. And there are thousands of character concepts made by multiclassing, homebrew, and multiclassing into homebrew.


Homebrewes are almost always case by case, so if it turns out a single spell is to powerful, explain it to the player and pick another spell.
Come on guys, just look at the 7th level fighter and think if it's okay that instead of tripping every enemy every encounter, he gets to cast one spell every encounter at various power levels.
Sure. It just won't be a 4th level spell if the character is a fighter, without being horribly broken.


Is "each spell can be cast twice per long rest" better than "you gain spell slots,and therefor only cast your strongest spell once, or cast lower level spells more often using higher level spell slots ". I thought the limited casting would be better if it were tapered towards higher level spells, meaning that it's okay to cast weak spells multiple time, especially if you're trading off your ability to cast more impactful spells.
It really depends what you want. There is no "Each Spell 2x per LR" as an option to try to emulate. There is spell casting with a spell slot tree, and Pact Magic, where you get a small number of spell slots, but they refresh on short rest.


Is there such a huge difference between the fighter and the paladin that spellcasting at the same rate is inherently broken, even dispite the severe lack of slots to fuel said spellcasting.
Yes. The Fighter has Action Surge, more attacks, more flexible martial compatibilities and fighting styles, and more ASIs.


Then again, I could just modify the paladin's spell list to achieve a similar effect, and that way I even get to keep a normal subclass and get twice the amount of Spell slots. Is that a cleaner solution, given that the power level of the spells on the list is kept in check?
If so, then why?
No. A Paladin has really strong utility spells because they all double as damage spells via the divine smite feature.

With this emphasis on powerful spells, I think you may have more fun with this concept by tying it to the Bladesinger or warlock instead of making a fighter. You don't seem to be particularly keen on anything the fighter gives, so why not just change the base class? A Bladesinger style wizard mixes in a huge number of spells and limited martial prowess, while Warlocks also have their normal spells capped at level 5, and have a martial option with blade pact.


Due to lack of coherent answers, explanations and why-how's, I've been reading up on subclasses.
Barbarian gains an extra attack whilst raging. Seems pretty strong.
But at the same time the Rogue archetypes (extept for AR) give either mostly give utility or conditional bonuses.
Paladin gets a couple of different spells added to his spell lisr, I might use that as a reference. If I would do so I'd probably delay the 3rd spell slot to level 9 and add a flavourful feature at 7th level instead. But since I'm pretty sure moy original idea needs to be scrapped completely, I'm not sure it's worth the hassle. Besides, it actively works against my hopes for Front loaded spell accessibility.

Only the berserker barbarian gets a bonus action attack, and only when frenzy'd raging, which gives a level of exhaustion immediately after. It is strong, but is balanced because exhaustion is a terrible downside.
Rogues get variations on things to set up their Sneak attack, which is their main source of damage.

Paladin, however, is probably the best class to base your design off of. Your smite basically acts as the "inflict wounds" ability you want, and you'll have a more normal half-caster spell growth

Change the "Temporal Knight" to an "Oath of Time" or "Oath of the Primer" or whatever.

Bjarkmundur
2019-02-27, 07:23 PM
Thank you so much for your replies!

I've learned so much through this little experiment, and one of those things is how little I really know about the state of the current game and its classes.

I'm gonna love going into my next game noticing all these knew things, and how so many of the features I never thought twice about are actually doing a complicated dance of balance.

Thank you so much, and happy homebrewing :)

Vogie
2019-02-28, 10:16 AM
Oath of Relativity

The Tenants of Relativity

Fight for the Future - Faced with any choice, I choose the greater evil.
By Any Means Necessary- Be the shield for the future against the past.
Deterrence - If my foes again wreak ruin on the world, it is because I failed to stop them. I must help those who will be harmed by their misdeeds


Oath Spells


Level
Spells


3rd
Feather Fall, Expeditious Retreat


5th
Hold Person, Augury


9th
Misty Step, Slow


13th
Divination, Dimension Door


17th
Hold Monster, Greater Restoration



Channel Divinity
When you take this oath at 3rd level, you gain the following Channel Divinity options:

Aging Touch
The touch of your shadow wreathed hand can twist the impact of time on others. When you hit a creature with a melee attack, you can use Channel Divinity to deal extra necrotic damage to the target. The damage equals twice your paladin level, and ages that creature for a number of years equal to half that amount. If it was a critical hit, you can choose to siphon those years instead, and reduce your age by up to that amount of years.
Splinter Twin
As an action, you create a visual illusion of yourself that lasts for 1 minute, or until you lose your concentration (as if you were concentrating on a spell). The illusion appears in an unoccupied space of your choice that you can see within 30 feet of you. The illusion looks exactly like you; it is your size, is insubstantial, and doesn't occupy its space; and it is unaffected by attacks and damage. As a bonus action on your turn, you can move the illusion up to 40 feet to a space you can see, but the illusion must remain within 80 feet of you. For the duration, you can speak and cast spells as though you were in the illusion's space, but you must use your own senses. Additionally, when both you and your illusion are within 5 feet of a creature that can see the illusion, you have advantage on attack rolls against that creature, given how uncanny the illusion is.

Time Stretch
Starting at 7th level, you and friendly creatures who start their turn within 10 feet of you have their speed increased by 10 ft and may perform an additional reaction before the start of their next turn.

At 18th level, the range of this aura increases to 30 feet.

Chance for Glory
Starting at 15th level, as a bonus action, you can choose an expended spell slot to recover. The first time you do so, you suffer no adverse effect. If you use this feature again before you finish a long rest, you suffer one level of Exhaustion.

Temporal Manipulation
At 20th level, you can opt to slow down time as an action, which gives you the following benefits for 1 minute:

Your speed is doubled
Other creatures have disadvantage on attack rolls against you
You have advantage on all saving throws
You gains an additional action on each of your turns.
When this feature ends, you can't move or take actions until the end of your next turn, and you suffer two levels of Exhaustion.
Once you use this feature, you can't use it again until you finish a long rest.



This is your concept, built out as a Paladin Oath. It kept bugging me, so I figured I'd write it down.
I decided to not add the racial restrictions to make sure only Jean-Claude Van Damme plays this class. I'm sure it's simply understood.
The tenants are based on Oath of Vengeance, just rejiggered to match the theme
The bonus spell list was based on your list on post #2, save the very last one, which I'll get to later.
Your Inflict Wounds-style aging touch is your first Channel Divinity
I added a the duplicate ability to give you the ability to be in 2 places at once, fluffed as either speed or a future or past version of you popping in to assist. I used the verbiage of the Oath of Treachery, with a shorter range, but you can speak through.
The Time Stretch Aura is Longstrider with an added feature of being able to react more
Chance of Glory is based on a less-useful version of the Arcane Recovery ability. You can refresh a single spell slot for free, or take them from the future at an increasingly dangerous rate using the exhaustion condition. EDIT: I switched from the Tides of Chaos verbage to the overchannel verbage to make it more clear.
Temporal Manipulation is basically a super-Haste/Action Surge Hybrid, which, like the 'zerker barbarian, gives exhaustion when used.
I included Greater Restoration as a bonus spell so the PC could, themselves, remove one of the levels of exhaustion without resting. It can throw you for a loop, because you can also turn around and use Chance of Glory to get the slot back... but then using it for anything else will give you exhaustion again. Time keeps ticking!

Bjarkmundur
2019-02-28, 01:26 PM
This.... This is beautiful :')

I am completely speechless :0