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Merlin the Tuna
2007-09-28, 05:36 PM
Tensions have run high on the subject of fourth edition, and a lot of folks aren't too happy about what they have (or haven't) seen. Each time a link to the WotC site -- be it a blog post or an Insider article -- pops up, the interblag explodes in flame wars. And among those are always claims like "4E making D&D dumb for people that like Pokeymans!" and whatnot.

In that spirit, I've come to catch them all.

As the saying goes, too many cooks spoil the broth, and implicit in that is that it doesn't really matter whether said broth is being made with the finest ingredients or with week-old White Castle burgers. That is to say, any judging of these ideas is strictly off-topic; I'm only here to create a bit of goofy chaos. My tongue is lodged firmly in my cheek as I ask,

What chimeric, Lovecraftian beast is D&D turning into?

So far, this is what I've got.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v289/MerlintheTuna/Random%20Images/4E.jpg
What am I missing?

Rex Blunder
2007-09-28, 05:38 PM
You mentioned pokemon, but i don't see Wartortle in there. Maybe I missed him.

Ganon11
2007-09-28, 05:39 PM
Where's Master Cheif?

Crazy_Uncle_Doug
2007-09-28, 05:39 PM
Ha! That's pretty funny. I like it so far.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-09-28, 05:41 PM
Strictly speaking, I haven't actually seen anyone say that the 4E material resembles Pokemon -- it's only been mentioned in the context of how the game is supposedly being dumbed down.

Halo is a comparison I haven't seen at all, although I suppose it could potentially be drawn by someone upset about the increase in low-level PCs power levels, under 9000 as they may be.

Still, both ideas have potential.

AslanCross
2007-09-28, 05:42 PM
I'm glad I wasn't drinking coffee or coke when I opened the image, or else you'd have had to replace my laptop or at least have it cleaned. At the risk of appearing to be an internet barbarian, I would like to tell you, sir, that you deserve an internet.

TSGames
2007-09-28, 05:44 PM
Offhand, my "4E is turning D&D into ________" statement would be this:
4E is turning D&D into ADD&D.

Archpaladin Zousha
2007-09-28, 05:46 PM
Where are the cards? According to what I've seen, D&D is apparently going to be a MMORPG-Trading-Card-Game-WOW-ripoff!:smallbiggrin:

Merlin the Tuna
2007-09-28, 05:46 PM
Offhand, my "4E is turning D&D into ________" statement would be this: 4E is turning D&D into ADD&D.Hrm, that'd be a tricky one to add. Maybe make it an animated .gif that jumps off of the main scene every second or so?

Rex Blunder
2007-09-28, 05:46 PM
So, maybe Harry should be clutching a bottle of ritalin.

Who's that girl in the back? Is that a final fantasy character? I think I've heard that.

SurlySeraph
2007-09-28, 05:46 PM
4E is turning DnD into DnD with a less interesting cosmology.

Also, that pic is made out of so much win...

Fax Celestis
2007-09-28, 05:47 PM
Offhand, my "4E is turning D&D into ________" statement would be this:
4E is turning D&D into ADD&D.

You say that as if it never was.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-09-28, 05:48 PM
Who's that girl in the back? Is that a final fantasy character? I think I've heard that.Unaltered, though FF is the logical one to add. So, Tifa, Rinoa, Garnet, or Yuna? They're pretty much the same design. That could be the back left, and the back right could grab a Master Chief helmet.

Also, is it clear that the stuff in the front guy's belt are Magic: The Gathering cards? If yes, is it also clear that every single one of them is a Fireball card?

Fax Celestis
2007-09-28, 05:50 PM
Unaltered, though FF is the logical one to add. So, Tifa, Rinoa, Garnet, or Yuna? They're pretty much the same design. That could be the back left, and the back right could grab a Master Chief helmet.

Tifa is the most ridiculously proportioned. Use her.

Ganon11
2007-09-28, 05:50 PM
Tifa. FF7 was the original insanely popular FF game that I can think of.

Shas aia Toriia
2007-09-28, 06:03 PM
Tifa, FFVII was the first big one, and arguably the best turn-based game ever.

Oh, and for that picture, you have won another internet.

Jack Mann
2007-09-28, 06:07 PM
Don't forget World of Darkness. Daddy needs a new pair of fangs.

dyslexicfaser
2007-09-28, 06:10 PM
I gott aask - what are those three things in the lead WoW char's belt?

They look like xbox 360 games.

puppyavenger
2007-09-28, 06:11 PM
Don't forget World of Darkness. Daddy needs a new pair of fangs.

How is D&D turning into WOD?

Arbitrarity
2007-09-28, 06:11 PM
Also, is it clear that the stuff in the front guy's belt are Magic: The Gathering cards? If yes, is it also clear that every single one of them is a Fireball card?

Asplody stuff, apparently :smallbiggrin:

GunMage
2007-09-28, 06:19 PM
In the words of my DM, "4E is turning D&D into another version of magic the money pit"

I tend to agree with that statement.

de-trick
2007-09-28, 06:19 PM
nice, they are screwing up the gods in FR's, helm, selune dead, mystra in hiding. Orcs with a settlement in the north
if i ever play 4.0 I now what im doing, from where ever I start going up to the orc settlement and killing every last orc

nice picture

SurlySeraph
2007-09-28, 06:23 PM
nice, they are screwing up the gods in FR's, helm, selune dead, mystra in hiding. Orcs with a settlement in the north
if i ever play 4.0 I now what im doing, from where ever I start going up to the orc settlement and killing every last orc

Initial reaction: Oh ****, they're doing the Time of Troubles AGAIN?

Second reaction: Eh, there were too many irritating "Freedom! Nature! Bunnies!"-type Chaotic Good deities anyway. But I'm bitter about Helm.

Rex Blunder
2007-09-28, 06:26 PM
How is D&D turning into WOD?


It definitely has been mentioned...



4e seems to be getting darker, gother, emoer, WoDlier.



Yep, the way things are going, we'll end up with no clerics, emo rogues, save feral fighters, and somber mages (NWoD, anyone?)



It feels like they've been reading White Wolf books



"THIS... THIS is world of darkness for the pokemon crowd!"

Collin152
2007-09-28, 06:33 PM
<_< >_>
Needs more cowbell.

Kurald Galain
2007-09-28, 06:46 PM
into a NEWT!

(a newt?)

(well, it got better)

Ivius
2007-09-28, 07:00 PM
a textbook example of viral marketing.

Rex Blunder
2007-09-28, 07:32 PM
Viral marketing? I haven't heard about it except on d&d message boards and among d&d buddies -- the places I hear about every d&d splatbook as it comes out. I'd think a viral marketing campaign should involve at least one random friend IM'ing me a funny youtube link or something.

Ivius
2007-09-28, 08:54 PM
Viral marketing? I haven't heard about it except on d&d message boards and among d&d buddies -- the places I hear about every d&d splatbook as it comes out. I'd think a viral marketing campaign should involve at least one random friend IM'ing me a funny youtube link or something.

I agree, "viral" isn't the right word, but it's the closest I can come up with. Word of mouth?

Guildorn Tanaleth
2007-09-28, 09:12 PM
So far, this is what I've got.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v289/MerlintheTuna/Random%20Images/4E.jpg

Uncle Pennybags is a nice touch. It's what started the cackling for me.

Well... stifled cackling. But still.

Yeygresh
2007-09-28, 09:22 PM
I gott aask - what are those three things in the lead WoW char's belt?

They look like xbox 360 games.

Magic: The Gathering cards, Fireball (http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/Cards/DST/en-us/Card46768.jpg) to be exact.

Tifa is a hilarious add in.

jamroar
2007-09-28, 09:36 PM
Initial reaction: Oh ****, they're doing the Time of Troubles AGAIN?
Really? *Looks up 4E FR info*
:smalleek:

This is like, what, the third time Mystra's died? Goddess of Magic sure is hazardous position.



Second reaction: Eh, there were too many irritating "Freedom! Nature! Bunnies!"-type Chaotic Good deities anyway. But I'm bitter about Helm.

The implied mass extinction of lesser deities in the Spell Plague sounds pretty contrived.

Huh? Tyr(!) went all Mikoesque on Helm's LN ass. WTH.

"Hey Cyric, Loki just called, he wants his mythic trope back."

averagejoe
2007-09-28, 09:44 PM
4E is turning D&D into candy!

One thing that struck me when I was reading the article on wizards, and how they get rods and wands and junk to modify their spell effects. It bugged me how their crystal balls didn't strengthen divination. I mean, that's a pretty obvious trope/myth to exploit.

Therefore 4E sucks, and will be terrible. *nod*

Ralfarius
2007-09-28, 09:57 PM
I was going to say that 4ed is turning D&D into a delicious custard. I don't know why, but that is the first thing that spring into mind.

Bassetking
2007-09-28, 10:02 PM
I like to picture 4th Ed. as a figure skater. He wears like a white outfit, and He does interpretive ice dances of my life's journey.

*Points for the reference*

AslanCross
2007-09-28, 10:29 PM
Initial reaction: Oh ****, they're doing the Time of Troubles AGAIN?

Second reaction: Eh, there were too many irritating "Freedom! Nature! Bunnies!"-type Chaotic Good deities anyway. But I'm bitter about Helm.

Wait, where does it say that Helm is dead? D:

EDIT: Ah, the whole cataclysm in Grand History of the Realms.

Green Bean
2007-09-28, 10:49 PM
Tensions have run high on the subject of fourth edition, and a lot of folks aren't too happy about what they have (or haven't) seen. Each time a link to the WotC site -- be it a blog post or an Insider article -- pops up, the interblag explodes in flame wars. And among those are always claims like "4E making D&D dumb for people that like Pokeymans!" and whatnot.

In that spirit, I've come to catch them all.


Look! "3.5 DnD" is evolving!


"3.5 DnD" evolved into "4e"!

Ganon11
2007-09-28, 10:53 PM
DnD learned Suck! (http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=242)

psychoticbarber
2007-09-28, 10:55 PM
I was going to say that 4ed is turning D&D into a delicious custard. I don't know why, but that is the first thing that spring into mind.

Something good, but inevitably devoured?

Ralfarius
2007-09-28, 11:15 PM
Ye gods, it makes perfect sense, now!

OzymandiasVolt
2007-09-28, 11:58 PM
4e is turning D&D into...D&D with modified rules. Just like the last time it changed.

Xuincherguixe
2007-09-28, 11:59 PM
Oh god. I love that picture. You sir are made of awesome and win.

horseboy
2007-09-29, 12:32 AM
Wow, amazing. I'd compare it to Spam personally, but I don't know how you'd put that in there. Also, what about a light saber, since they themselves talk about how much Saga is influencing it.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-09-29, 01:59 AM
Okay, current list of additions to make is Tifa, Master Chief, lightsabers (which will probably be kind of tricky given that they're too thin to just paste over the regular swords), and some kind of Pokemon reference.

Oh, and while I'd prefer the discussion of the Forgotten Realms go elsewhere, I can provide some info. Keith Baker talked about god reduction a bit here. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13847710&postcount=503) Here's the stuff relevant to the discussion you've drifted into.

Yes, we'd like a smaller pantheon in FR. However, that doesn't mean that three-quarters of the deities will kick off. It does mean that we're looking at a lot of marginal deities and asking ourselves, "Could this deity be a demigod--a divine figure who doesn't really have a continent-wide church with dozens of temples devoted to him or her?" For example, we like a lot of the demihuman deities as demigods who hang around with/work for the real heavy hitters like Moradin or Corellon. So while apparently a couple of gods are getting dead'd, it sounds like most of the "casualties" will be taking a few of the minor ones down from god-level to saint-level. (Which is a metaphor which would work a lot better if not for Saint Cuthbert. I mean, seriously, who's he a saint of? Himself?)

Renegade Paladin
2007-09-29, 02:08 AM
Okay, current list of additions to make is Tifa, Master Chief, lightsabers (which will probably be kind of tricky given that they're too thin to just paste over the regular swords), and some kind of Pokemon reference.

Oh, and while I'd prefer the discussion of the Forgotten Realms go elsewhere, I can provide some info. Keith Baker talked about god reduction a bit here. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13847710&postcount=503) Here's the stuff relevant to the discussion you've drifted into. So while apparently a couple of gods are getting dead'd, it sounds like most of the "casualties" will be taking a few of the minor ones down from god-level to saint-level. (Which is a metaphor which would work a lot better if not for Saint Cuthbert. I mean, seriously, who's he a saint of? Himself?)
St. Cuthbert? Long story. Short version is he's the historical Saint Cuthbert of Lindisfarne (http://www.lindisfarne.org.uk/general/cuddy.htm), who somehow made his way to Oerth after being canonized.

Turcano
2007-09-29, 02:56 AM
St. Cuthbert? Long story. Short version is he's the historical Saint Cuthbert of Lindisfarne (http://www.lindisfarne.org.uk/general/cuddy.htm), who somehow made his way to Oerth after being canonized.

Are you sure? The biographies that I've read show a distinct lack of him beating the crap out of people.

bosssmiley
2007-09-29, 09:15 AM
Are you sure? The biographies that I've read show a distinct lack of him beating the crap out of people.

The real St Cuthbert was a Geordie, therefore the massive amounts of whupass he would lay down are implicit in his origins and need not be restated. :smallwink:

As for "4E is turning D&D into ______."
_______ = the words "gaming cash cow".

Rex Blunder
2007-09-29, 09:48 AM
"gaming cash cow".

I think it already is.

Renegade Paladin
2007-09-29, 10:42 AM
Are you sure? The biographies that I've read show a distinct lack of him beating the crap out of people.
*Shrug* The "Core Beliefs" article on him in Dragon doesn't come out and say it, but it's heavily implied. It also says that the beating the crap out of people is a last resort.

puppyavenger
2007-09-29, 12:10 PM
What core belifes article?

Kurald Galain
2007-09-29, 12:37 PM
What core belifes article?

This one... (http://www.dragonworld.de/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=29568&SID)

Rex Blunder
2007-09-29, 01:40 PM
You know that joke about the prisoners who had all heard each other's jokes, so they just assigned numbers to them and shouted out stuff like "Number 5!" to uproarious laughter?

I feel like a lot of people share similar opinions about 4e. So to save everyone carpal tunnel, I propose the following shortcuts.

1. "4e is turning D&D into:"
a) WoW b) anime c) monopoly d) magic e) a game for people younger or more immature than myself
(so you'd say, for instance, "1c!")

2. "I don't understand why you would change the fluff! Once you've done that, it's not D&D anymore!"

3. "It's not like WOTC ninjas are going to break into your house and steal your books and brainwash you! If you don't like it, don't play it! People still play 1e!"

4. "I like these changes, but they don't go far enough! Let's have a classless reality simulator where everyone usually dies in one hit!"

5. "It's stupid to make a decision now. When the books come out, I'll read them, and if they're good, I'll buy them; otherwise I'll play 3.5."

(I'm not saying any of these ideas are invalid, except maybe 4; just that there should be a more economical way to express ideas that we express so often.)

horseboy
2007-09-29, 04:01 PM
4. "I like these changes, but they don't go far enough! Let's have a classless reality simulator where everyone usually dies in one hit!"

(I'm not saying any of these ideas are invalid, except maybe 4; just that there should be a more economical way to express ideas that we express so often.)

But I liked #4. :smallfrown:



:smallwink:

Skjaldbakka
2007-09-29, 08:07 PM
#3! #5!

We run into a problem with minimum charcter limit here. :smallbiggrin:

kamikasei
2007-09-30, 04:05 PM
#3! #5!

We run into a problem with minimum charcter limit here. :smallbiggrin:

Solved thusly:

#5!!!!!!1!One!!111!

Renrik
2007-09-30, 04:16 PM
Bloody hell, screw it all. I'm not buying into 4th edition. 3.5 is fine to me. Hell, 3rd was fine, except for the Ranger class sucking out loud. What's the real truth, though?

WotC has a monopoly on the gaming industry, and as a result, the quality of the games being published is deteriorating. Want proof? The last couple of books WotC published for D&D have been compendiums of rules that were already available. Nothing new. And it's true that D&D is being dumbed down-it's being dumbed down a lot. I don;t mind the new stat blocks, but the way they format magic items now, plus the wasteful and stupid way they've gone and overly-fleshed out every monster and prestige class is getting on my nerves. Also, there are way the hell too many prestige classes. Moreover, what's with this cancelling of Dragon and Dungeon magazines? They werre great, damn it! Now, if I want to reference something from them, I can't just grab one from the stack. I have to buy a laptop and get high-speed internet. When yo live in the country, that's difficult. The only reason I'm able to be typing this is because I'm at the library of the local university, which has good internet. Nobody else within 10 miles does, and that includes me.

Overall, though, the real issue is that WotC has gotten lazy and sloppy, and they have a monopoly on the industry.

Green Bean
2007-09-30, 04:37 PM
Bloody hell, screw it all. I'm not buying into 4th edition. 3.5 is fine to me. Hell, 3rd was fine, except for the Ranger class sucking out loud. What's the real truth, though?

WotC has a monopoly on the gaming industry, and as a result, the quality of the games being published is deteriorating. Want proof? The last couple of books WotC published for D&D have been compendiums of rules that were already available. Nothing new. And it's true that D&D is being dumbed down-it's being dumbed down a lot. I don;t mind the new stat blocks, but the way they format magic items now, plus the wasteful and stupid way they've gone and overly-fleshed out every monster and prestige class is getting on my nerves. Also, there are way the hell too many prestige classes. Moreover, what's with this cancelling of Dragon and Dungeon magazines? They werre great, damn it! Now, if I want to reference something from them, I can't just grab one from the stack. I have to buy a laptop and get high-speed internet. When yo live in the country, that's difficult. The only reason I'm able to be typing this is because I'm at the library of the local university, which has good internet. Nobody else within 10 miles does, and that includes me.

Overall, though, the real issue is that WotC has gotten lazy and sloppy, and they have a monopoly on the industry.

That's true. It's not like WotC has made most of their content open source, or that there are dozens if not hundreds of third party publishers. :smallamused:

horseboy
2007-09-30, 04:41 PM
That's true. It's not like WotC has made most of their content open source, or that there are dozens if not hundreds of third party publishers. :smallamused:
Or companies like Redbrick and Palladium out there making something completely unique and actually interesting. :smallamused:

Green Bean
2007-09-30, 04:42 PM
Or companies like Redbrick and Palladium out there making something completely unique and actually interesting. :smallamused:

Now you're just talking crazy! :smallbiggrin:

Lord Tataraus
2007-09-30, 05:05 PM
Or companies like Redbrick and Palladium out there making something completely unique and actually interesting. :smallamused:

Wait...there are other things out there that can be called RPGs?!?!?!
D&D is not the only thing out their! Blasphemy!!! You shall burn at the stake heathen!!!

Merlin the Tuna
2007-09-30, 05:33 PM
<Hoohah>Renrik, maybe you missed it the first time around, but that is absolutely not what this topic is about, to the point that I expressly requested actual 4E concepts not be brought up here. If you'd like to voice your opinion on fourth edition, I'd appreciate it if you could delete that post and take your complaints elsewhere.

Kurald Galain
2007-10-01, 08:03 AM
Overall, though, the real issue is that WotC has gotten lazy and sloppy, and they have a monopoly on the industry.

Huh?

No they don't. There's still White Wolf, and GURPS, and several dozen smaller publishers.

Indon
2007-10-01, 10:05 AM
Number 5!

Heh.

Zim
2007-10-01, 10:31 AM
Just about died ROTFLMAO when I saw the OP. I think it should include either Optimus Prime or Mr. Potatohead, in honour of our fiends at Hasbro taking it mainstream.

(just noticed the mis-spell of friends. I let it stand :smallwink: )

Rex Blunder
2007-10-01, 10:37 AM
You may want to include these warriors too:

http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/images/lollipop%2520guild.jpg

Zim
2007-10-01, 10:52 AM
Watch for the new "Lollypop Guildsman" PrC! :smallamused:

horseboy
2007-10-01, 11:16 AM
Hmm, think maybe give one of them a lap top, for all those who are carrying on about how it's making the DM nothing more than a computer.

SexyOchreJelly
2007-10-01, 01:06 PM
The picture in the original post is SO funny.

4E will give the MMO junkies of modern days what they want... while role-players will be left at 3.5. I will be.

And I want it that way!! 3.5 is fine in my opinion. There will always be mechanical problems, you can't make a perfect edition.

If it does anything, perhaps 4E will get people together with their friends to play games more rather than logging onto the web. Who knows, though?

Morty
2007-10-01, 01:09 PM
4E will give the MMO junkies of modern days what they want... while role-players will be left at 3.5. I will be.


Assuming it's not sacrastic, give me one good reason why 4ed will be less fitting for roleplaying.

SexyOchreJelly
2007-10-01, 01:11 PM
Based on what I know about 4E: Nothing, I am going on the original post and the picture included in that is my one good reason.

Solo
2007-10-01, 01:14 PM
The picture in the original post is SO funny.

4E will give the MMO junkies of modern days what they want... while role-players will be left at 3.5. I will be.

And I want it that way!! 3.5 is fine in my opinion. There will always be mechanical problems, you can't make a perfect edition.

If it does anything, perhaps 4E will get people together with their friends to play games more rather than logging onto the web. Who knows, though?

And so said 2nd ed players about 3rd ed, and 1st ed players of the 2nd.

SexyOchreJelly
2007-10-01, 01:22 PM
Aye. You have to stick with your generation, I suppose.

Dr. Weasel
2007-10-01, 01:22 PM
The thread title said that "4E is turning into_________ SexyOchreJelly" for a while and I really couldn't agree more.

SexyOchreJelly
2007-10-01, 01:24 PM
Are you ready for this jelly??!

CharlieRock
2007-10-01, 01:38 PM
And so said 2nd ed players about 3rd ed, and 1st ed players of the 2nd.
That would be 4e post option #6. :smallbiggrin:


And which 1ed players would that be? The AD&D ones? The BD&D (or OD&D, CD&D, D&D, etc.)? The MoldvayD&D?
That was one of the wonderful things about the first edition(s). We all knew there were different versions. I played (non-A)D&D. They played AD&D. I didn't make fun of their game. They ignored the existance of mine. We both read the same magazines and told the same jokes.
When 2e came out most people assumed it was the new AD&D (it was, BD&D wasn't discontinued until 3ed came out). So most people I gamed with didn't care.
Since D&D wasn't effected by the edition change, you can't really say that 1e players griped about 2ed. Only the AD&D players might have. Besides that, GURPS was already out and we jumped knee deep into that.

Renrik
2007-10-01, 05:33 PM
Huh?

No they don't. There's still White Wolf, and GURPS, and several dozen smaller publishers.

Yeah, but White Wolf only makes craptastic goth games set in the modern day with an excessive amount of brooding and angst and poorly written short stories in all their sourcebooks created by writers who think that punctuating thoughts with angsty swearfests is good literature. And most of the other small publishers make stuff for D&D. And GURPS, while awesome, is still no match for WotC.
----

Anywho, about 4th edition itself:

I'm not buying it. No way in hell. I spent way too much money on 3rd edition (and 3.5) to go switching to 4th. Besides, I don't like the flavor they've got now.

Green Bean
2007-10-01, 05:36 PM
Yeah, but White Wolf only makes craptastic goth games set in the modern day with an excessive amount of brooding and angst and poorly written short stories in all their sourcebooks created by writers who think that punctuating thoughts with angsty swearfests is good literature. And most of the other small publishers make stuff for D&D. And GURPS, while awesome, is still no match for WotC.

So you're saying that because WotC puts out a product that you think is better their competition's, they're being monopolistic? :smallconfused:

Crazy_Uncle_Doug
2007-10-01, 05:54 PM
That would be 4e post option #6. :smallbiggrin:


And which 1ed players would that be? The AD&D ones? The BD&D (or OD&D, CD&D, D&D, etc.)? The MoldvayD&D?
That was one of the wonderful things about the first edition(s). We all knew there were different versions. I played (non-A)D&D. They played AD&D. I didn't make fun of their game. They ignored the existance of mine. We both read the same magazines and told the same jokes.
When 2e came out most people assumed it was the new AD&D (it was, BD&D wasn't discontinued until 3ed came out). So most people I gamed with didn't care.
Since D&D wasn't effected by the edition change, you can't really say that 1e players griped about 2ed. Only the AD&D players might have. Besides that, GURPS was already out and we jumped knee deep into that.

I started out playing basic Dungeons & Dragons. I still have my "Keep On The Borderlands 4-Ever" tattoo...

horseboy
2007-10-01, 05:59 PM
So you're saying that because WotC puts out a product that you think is better their competition's, they're being monopolistic? :smallconfused:

Generally when people talk about the Wo$C Monopoly it's more how hard it is to get hard copy of games other than D&D any more. I've walked into several gaming stores and asked them what they have that's not d20 and good. It's a rare store that has anything. :smallfrown:

Crazy_Uncle_Doug
2007-10-01, 06:17 PM
Generally when people talk about the Wo$C Monopoly it's more how hard it is to get hard copy of games other than D&D any more. I've walked into several gaming stores and asked them what they have that's not d20 and good. It's a rare store that has anything. :smallfrown:

Really? That must be a crummy area. I can name two stores in driving distance of my home that have d20, White Wolf, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, and other systems. One of them has used material (I found an old Rolemaster box there just last Friday). There's a couple new and used bookstores near where I live (same local chain) that frequently have several used games and systems. They'll have an unusual or rare one that pops up every so often. And on the other side of town, there's a store that frequently has some of the obscure stuff.

So ... it's not a monopoly. It's the local stores are making limited choices in what to carry. Where do you live? I'll open a game store there and call it "CRAZY UNCLE AWESOME'S!"

Rex Blunder
2007-10-01, 06:31 PM
Also, check out the ads in Dragon Magazine - you can send away for the catalogs of non-TSR publishers like Fantasy Games Unlimited or Judges Guild and order their products by mail.

Oh, it's 2007? Then you can order books online, or buy PDFs of a lot of indie games.

horseboy
2007-10-01, 06:39 PM
Really? That must be a crummy area. I can name two stores in driving distance of my home that have d20, White Wolf, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, and other systems. One of them has used material (I found an old Rolemaster box there just last Friday). There's a couple new and used bookstores near where I live (same local chain) that frequently have several used games and systems. They'll have an unusual or rare one that pops up every so often. And on the other side of town, there's a store that frequently has some of the obscure stuff.

So ... it's not a monopoly. It's the local stores are making limited choices in what to carry. Where do you live? I'll open a game store there and call it "CRAZY UNCLE AWESOME'S!"
You'll note I did say "good" so that leaves WW out. :smallwink:
Maryland and Missouri are both that way. In Maryland if you want WFR they send you to the Bunker and half the time they don't have it there. Mo, it's a special order if you know it exists and know to order it.
The place in MD tried to sell me on L5R, but it was going through a revision, so they couldn't get any in. So I have to download most all of my stuff on-line. Yay for social hobbies that I don't have to interact with people in. :smallbiggrin:

Kurald Galain
2007-10-02, 04:02 AM
And most of the other small publishers make stuff for D&D. And GURPS, while awesome, is still no match for WotC.

So hardly a monopoly, then. Most small publishers aren't making stuff for D&D, they're making stuff for d20. There's a difference there.

Aside from that, I've recently seen Paranoia coming back up, a BTVS rpg, OSRIC, Hackmaster, many many homebrew things on the internet, et cetera et cetera. My local shops cover it just fine, at any rate. And just because a few people in this thread think White Wolf is t3h sucky 4ngst doesn't mean it's not one of the better-selling systems atm.

Crazy_Uncle_Doug
2007-10-02, 09:21 AM
White Wolf also created one of my favorite RPGS: Exalted, which is very low on emo and very high on kick-butt.

If I can venture into business for a moment, it'd be my guess that this is the perfect time for any alternate gaming system to push their product. People are going to be less inclined to spend money on 3.5e material knowing it will soon be superseded by 4e.

Anyhow, DnD is hardly a monopoly even by the loosest of terms. Being the grandfather of RPGs, it of course is able to change the course of the river a little easier than the small guys, but the small guys are still out there. Right now, a lot of my gamer cash is going to Exalted and Warhammer FRPG. Rock on.

CharlieRock
2007-10-02, 10:02 AM
Mo, it's a special order if you know it exists and know to order it.

Three places in the KC,MO area I know of that sell RPGs Other-than-d20:
A to Z Comics & Games: Date info last verified: 08/14/07
1300 SW 40 Hwy., Blue Springs, MO, 64015
Ph: (816) 224-0505 Fx: (# Unavailable)
This one is mainly comics, but some d20, and GURPS.


Tabletop Games and Hobby (http://www.tabletopgameandhobby.com/)
This one is my favorite! Found here are miniatures, boardgames, the OotS graphic books, KoDT, CCGs, GURPS, HackMaster, C&C, Shadowrun, BattleTech, and D&D/d20. Plus more. Too many to list (thus the link).

The Battlezone (http://www.the-battlezone.com/)
This one is pretty cool. They were actually running a XCrawl game for some customers right there in the store to show people the game last time I went there. Also has Epic minis!

"Hey, Charlie! Two of those are Kansas, not Missouri."
I know. But they are not far from state line if you are in the KC area.

:smallsmile:

Edit: All three can special order things for you if you ask them.

CharlieRock
2007-10-02, 10:08 AM
I started out playing basic Dungeons & Dragons. I still have my "Keep On The Borderlands 4-Ever" tattoo...

This (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=1139)was my first module I ever got. Good thing ,too. It is one of their 'solo' adventure modules and I hadn't found a team yet. :smallsmile:

horseboy
2007-10-02, 10:54 AM
"Hey, Charlie! Two of those are Kansas, not Missouri."
I know. But they are not far from state line if you are in the KC area.

:smallsmile:

Edit: All three can special order things for you if you ask them.
Unfortunately, I'm on the far side, near the Boot heal. Thanks though. :smallsmile:

Crazy_Uncle_Doug
2007-10-02, 10:57 AM
Online shopping is a decent option as well, but it lacks some things a game shop has. It's hard to look deeply into a game online, as all they tend to offer is a blurb or two on what it does. Also, the shop is a great place to get a game some face time, and meet some new players.

Still, if you can't find more than d20 where you are, online is better than naught.

CharlieRock
2007-10-02, 11:14 AM
Online shopping is a decent option as well, but it lacks some things a game shop has. It's hard to look deeply into a game online, as all they tend to offer is a blurb or two on what it does. Also, the shop is a great place to get a game some face time, and meet some new players.

Still, if you can't find more than d20 where you are, online is better than naught.
Cannot agree more. Support your local games store.

Sorry, Horseboy. I kind of figured you were out of area (or were in the past) but was worth a shot. :smallwink:

OzymandiasVolt
2007-10-02, 11:17 AM
<Zordon> "4e is turning D&D intooo...uh, ANIMALS from the Chinese Zodiac!"

Roderick_BR
2007-10-02, 11:46 AM
Well, if you guys want to nitpick, D&D 3.x ALREADY is what the OP posted. I mean, tie a cape around the wizard's neck, make him wear his underwear over the pants, and you are done :smalltongue: