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TGWG
2007-09-29, 10:08 PM
um, around what levels do spellcasters get spell that give no saving throws?

Zincorium
2007-09-29, 10:17 PM
um, around what levels do spellcasters get spell that give no saving throws?

First. It's called magic missile.

Edit: Okay, I sounded like a complete D*** here, unintentionally.

SRD Entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicMissile.htm) on magic missile. As you can see, it has no saving throw or roll to hit. The balancing factor is it does very little damage compared to other spells of it's level.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-09-29, 10:22 PM
If you mean nondamage effects, 1st with grease (can't remember how it worked), or something with solid fog.

Gralamin
2007-09-29, 10:38 PM
A few examples, from a quick browse
1st: Ray of Enfeeblement, Magic Missile
2nd: Touch of Idiocy, Acid Arrow
3rd: Vampiric Touch
4th: Black Tentacles, Enervation
5th: Waves of Fatigue
6th: Acid Fog
7th: Forcecage, Reverse Gravity
8th: Irresistible Dance
9th: Power Word Kill

Draz74
2007-09-30, 01:22 AM
If you mean nondamage effects, 1st with grease (can't remember how it worked), or something with solid fog.

Grease does allow a save, but the nice thing about it is that even if the target passes their save (and therefore doesn't fall), they are considered flat-footed as long as they stay in the Greased area. Unless they have 5 ranks of the Balance skill, which is unlikely.

EDIT: And being flat-footed is important because it means they can be Sneak Attacked, unless they have the Uncanny Dodge ability.

Catch
2007-09-30, 06:34 AM
As a rule of thumb, any spell that requires an attack roll usually eschews a saving throw. Either you have to aim the spell or they have a chance to resist it. It's rarely both or neither.

Yuki Akuma
2007-09-30, 07:52 AM
As a rule of thumb, any spell that requires an attack roll usually eschews a saving throw. Either you have to aim the spell or they have a chance to resist it. It's rarely both or neither.

And spells that do require both, such as Disintegrate, generally have an effect even if the target makes the save.

Disintegrate, to further the example, still deals damage, and still turns the target to dust if they're reduced to 0 hp.

Shas aia Toriia
2007-09-30, 08:11 AM
Yumm. . . Disintegrate on a failed saving throw. . . :smallcool:

Anyways, all I can think of are the various Power Word spells.

Nowhere Girl
2007-09-30, 09:30 AM
Of course, Forcecage requires neither, and spell resistance doesn't apply to it, either.

Green Bean
2007-09-30, 09:35 AM
The alignment word spells (Blasphemy, Dictum, etc.) don't allow saves unless they're being used to return Outsiders to their native plane.

Chronos
2007-09-30, 03:07 PM
Web (2nd level, thus 3rd level spellcaster) allows a save, but it doesn't really matter. Either way, your enemies are entangled and you have cover from them. If they fail their save, they can't move at all. If they make their save, then they have a chance to be able to move 5 feet (maybe 10, if they're strong) on a full-round action.

There are also all of the spells for buffing up your party (Enlarge Person, Protection from Evil, and Mage Armor on up), which are never subject to saving throws or spell resistance, unless your teammates are really paranoid.

Guy_Whozevl
2007-09-30, 03:24 PM
Many rays lack saving throws, like ray of stupidity and ray of clumsiness. There are also the aforementioned power word spells, forecage, etc.
Solid fog is a good no saver as well. Every level for wiz/sor have spells that lack saving throws, but some still allow SR.

JackMage666
2007-09-30, 06:18 PM
Ray of Enfeeblement at 1st level - No savings throw, but you have to make a Ranged Touch Attack (shouldn't be all that difficult).

Yuki Akuma
2007-09-30, 06:31 PM
I like how everyone keeps repeating the same thing over and over again.

Green Bean
2007-09-30, 06:40 PM
I like how everyone keeps repeating the same thing over and over again.

SCPRedMage
2007-09-30, 09:19 PM
The Orb series of spells (Orb of Acid, Orb of Fire, etc) from Complete Arcane (reprinted in Spell Compendium) are 4th level spells that do d6/caster level (max 15d6) on a ranged touch attack, no saving throw, no spell resistance. Well, there's a saving throw, but that's to avoid an additional effect, not the damage.

There are also 1st-level Lesser versions of them that do 1d6 + d6 every two caster levels (max 5d6), similar to Magic Missile; ie, extra die at 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th.

Ulzgoroth
2007-09-30, 09:36 PM
Look again. Orb spells require a ranged touch attack.

RandomNPC
2007-09-30, 10:27 PM
Look again. Orb spells require a ranged touch attack.

and whats the base touch AC of a red dragon at the end of its age progression? 2?

thats right folks, high hit dice, high BAB high nat. armor, flight, spells, breath weaopns, they can even swallow you. but you can still pet them at the Dangerous things petting zoo, because it's just that easy to reach out and touch something.

now just try getting past the same dragons SR......

SCPRedMage
2007-09-30, 11:15 PM
Look again. Orb spells require a ranged touch attack.
Look again, I said that. :smalltongue:

RTGoodman
2007-09-30, 11:18 PM
now just try getting past the same dragons SR......

Of course, the aforementioned Orb spells don't allow SR, do they? :smallbiggrin:

SCPRedMage
2007-09-30, 11:19 PM
Of course, the aforementioned Orb spells don't allow SR, do they? :smallbiggrin:
D'oh, ninja'd...

Aquillion
2007-10-01, 04:02 AM
Grease does allow a save, but the nice thing about it is that even if the target passes their save (and therefore doesn't fall), they are considered flat-footed as long as they stay in the Greased area. Unless they have 5 ranks of the Balance skill, which is unlikely.

EDIT: And being flat-footed is important because it means they can be Sneak Attacked, unless they have the Uncanny Dodge ability.It does much more than that:
A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Balance check. Failure means it canít move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Balance skill for details).This is pretty nasty. Creatures with no balance skill (which are most of them) and a poor or nonexistent dex mod (including armor check penalty, which will cover lots of opponents) has a 50% chance of not being able to move at all, with a 25% chance of falling if they try. Pretty nasty for a first level spell. If you drop a grease on something that has a dex penalty and no balance skill, there's a good chance they're just stuck there, immobilized by a first-level spell. And, of course, it can be used to block off an entire crowd of such low-dex creatures in the right situation. In tight quarters, it gets even worse, because when one enemy fails their balance check they can end up blocking all the rest.

Depending on how your DM interprets it with regard to the Balance rules, it gets worse than that, since Balance reads:
You are considered flat-footed while balancing, since you canít move to avoid a blow, and thus you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). If you have 5 or more ranks in Balance, you arenít considered flat-footed while balancing. If you take damage while balancing, you must make another Balance check against the same DC to remain standing.It isn't entirely clear whether they're automatically considered to be balancing when standing on grease, or only if they just tried to move, but either way that can get ugly.

If you put an Acid Fog over a Grease spell, the creatures on the grease will have to make a balance check every time the acid fog damages them to remain standing... and won't be able to see where the grease extends to walk out of it, and will only move 5 feet per turn when they do manage to move, and will keep getting knocked back down by the damage... And won't get any SR or saving throw to escape. And won't be able to use normal ranged attacks out of it. You'd want allies capable of hitting into the fog without worrying about concealment, but that's not too hard to swing.

In general, any terrain-altering effect grants no saving throw. In most fights, dividing the enemy up so your melee-types can pick them off in favorable conditions is just as effective as killing them outright.

RTGoodman
2007-10-01, 06:55 AM
D'oh, ninja'd...

Cool, I've never been a ninja before...


Anyway, Grease just seems... I don't know, dirty, I guess. To me, at least. Of course, at least it gives a chance for the rogues and melee-types to finish off enemies that the wizards has already basically disabled, instead of the wizard single-handedly taking out the enemy by whatever means he'd like (which is more of a problem at higher levels), so I guess that's a good thing.

Aquillion
2007-10-01, 08:01 PM
Anyway, Grease just seems... I don't know, dirty, I guess. To me, at least. Of course, at least it gives a chance for the rogues and melee-types to finish off enemies that the wizards has already basically disabled, instead of the wizard single-handedly taking out the enemy by whatever means he'd like (which is more of a problem at higher levels), so I guess that's a good thing.Well, remember that at low levels, even though it's one of their more powerful options, the wizard isn't going to have enough castings of it to completely unbalance things... it covers a small area, and enemies can escape most of its effect with one good roll. At higher levels it remains much more useful than most first-level spells, but wizards are still going to have much nastier things to pull out when they want to end a fight; if they're reduced to throwing around first-level spells in really important fights, they've already been pressed to their limits. So grease is a good spell, but not particularly unbalanced on its own.

Idea Man
2007-10-02, 11:55 PM
Summoning spells don't get a save. Call for help, they'll be there in a (6 second) flash! Rapid spell can make that a little less painful (Complete Divine) at only +1 CL. Yeah, most summoned critters suck, pound for pound, but they have their uses. Add augment summoning to beef up your battle-critters, extend spell if you need them to clear a couple of rooms for you. And spell focus (conjuration) is handy for orb spells and making pacts with devils...angels! I meant to say ANGELS!!! Honest! :smalltongue: