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Shuruke
2019-04-05, 09:20 AM
So I've been playing and dmin dnd since a few years before 5e (3.5 then 5e)

Something I've always wondered is how would a tabletop balanced around more realistic combat look

Something like each round being 30 seconds so that someone making 3+ attacks and movement etc isn't within a 6 second period

What do other table tops do instead of Intiative?

Things like making it so if a heavy armored person is knocked over and being grappled putting a blade through is much easier?

Reason I'm asking is in trying to make a homebrew rpg , but my experience in how they work is rather limited

So far I have that ability checks and etc are based off a 3d6 system

There's no attack rolls instead u roll damage against the armor class

No classes instead u pick features that cost points kinda like the heroes games


I'm just wondering what your opinions are on adding realism to rpg

I feel it personally can make things 3.5 tier complicated for sake of tons of rules , but is their an upside?

Rhedyn
2019-04-05, 09:54 AM
You need to read through GURPS 4e both the basic set and relevant tech level books.

It's also a 3d6 system

Shuruke
2019-04-05, 10:00 AM
You need to read through GURPS 4e both the basic set and relevant tech level books.

It's also a 3d6 system

Thanks! Is their free pdf?


Edit: Found it will look when home more in depth!! Thanks for help

sleepy hedgehog
2019-04-05, 10:03 AM
I feel like much of this comes down to what you consider realistic, and what you're willing to abstract away.
Since, there are lots of different parts you can make more realistic.
I think it would help it you had an example of what a fight in your system would look like.

Often, after a point, the more realistic you make something, the less exciting it is to play.
And it tends to work counter to the idea that the the players to make it through many fights, without dieing.
Then lastly, magic often messes everything up.

But a couple random ideas:
DnD, along with many other RPGs, tend to not reduce effectiveness of the players effectiveness until they go down.
This is to prevent downward spirals where someone takes damage, gets less effective, becomes more likely to take damage, takes more damage...
In Shadowrun, every 3 damage you take reduces all rolls by 1 dice.

Tracking wounds, or different body part damage.

I'm a big fan of 2nd edition(ish I think) initiative, where everyone rolls initiative every round.
The slowest person announces their action, then the next slowest...
After everyone's announced their actions, the turn resolves.
Either fastest person first going first like normal, or the DM doing an ad hoc simultaneous resolution
(I'm not sure it's any more realistic, but to the players, it feels that way)

Thrawn4
2019-04-05, 10:48 AM
So I've been playing and dmin dnd since a few years before 5e (3.5 then 5e)

Something I've always wondered is how would a tabletop balanced around more realistic combat look

So, D&D specifically or tabletops in general?




Something like each round being 30 seconds so that someone making 3+ attacks and movement etc isn't within a 6 second period

I fail to see how every fight with deadly weapons taking two minutes or more is suppossed to be more realistic.



What do other table tops do instead of Intiative?

Well, most do initiative, but you could just skip it, so that every makes their action at the same time and you resolve the results at the end of the round.




Things like making it so if a heavy armored person is knocked over and being grappled putting a blade through is much easier?

Rule that attacks with piering weapons against grappled opponents have a bonus.



Reason I'm asking is in trying to make a homebrew rpg , but my experience in how they work is rather limited

Don't we all? But it can be a lot of fun, good luck!




I'm just wondering what your opinions are on adding realism to rpg

I feel it personally can make things 3.5 tier complicated for sake of tons of rules , but is their an upside?
Objectively speaking, it changes the style of the game. Less fights because wounds are a more serious matter. I think there is a rules variant that turns short rest into long rests and long rests take a week or something like that.
Personally, I like it a lot. It bothers me that somebody with severe injuries can just recover within two days. Of course, that kind of depends on your defintion of HP. Still, I find a more realistic approach more rewarding because players consider whether a fight is worth the risk.

Also, your definition of realistic is kind of wonky, so maybe you should define it.





Often, after a point, the more realistic you make something, the less exciting it is to play.
And it tends to work counter to the idea that the the players to make it through many fights, without dieing.
Then lastly, magic often messes everything up.

Whole-heartedly disagree. I prefer less fights as it prevents deflation.

Mark Hall
2019-04-05, 10:49 AM
Hackmaster (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/109620/HackMaster-Players-Handbook?affiliate_id=315505 ) doesn't use rounds at all (Basic (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/104757/HackMaster-Basic-free?affiliate_id=315505 ) is free). Nor does Aces & 8s (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/78573/Aces--Eights-Players-Guidebook?affiliate_id=315505), Kenzerco's western game.

Grod_The_Giant
2019-04-05, 11:03 AM
I feel it personally can make things 3.5 tier complicated for sake of tons of rules , but is their an upside?
Oh, you can get so much worse than 3.5. Look up Phoenix Command or deadEarth sometime.

As for realism in RPGs... no game can simulate everything, so so every system ever written has at least some level of abstraction-- the point where the designers say "these aren't the parts of reality we care about, so let's not worry about them in the rules." D&D style hit points are an example-- they say "we're not really interested in crippling injuries as the result of battle; we want the image of badass adventurers fighting to the dead, so we're only going to track 'alive' and 'dying.'"

Where does realism stop and abstraction take over? It depends entirely on what sort of themes you want to hit in your RPG. Even games with the same type of setting can vary; a squad-based military game taking inspiration from 80s action films will have a very different look from one that's looking for at stuff like Apocalypse Now.

So take a step back-- what do you see your system being used for? What sort of tone and themes do you want to convey?

Rhedyn
2019-04-05, 12:16 PM
Oh you know, a lot of Fudge builds do simultaneous combat rounds.

The 10th anniversary edition is a little jank, but for an amateur rpg design effort, I've ran into no better instruction book. I made a 7 page rules-light "D&D fantasy" after reading it.

caden_varn
2019-04-05, 02:15 PM
Torg uses a card deck for initiative, and include extra twists. Encounters come in standard (favour the heroes) and dramatic ( I suspect you can guess...). Initiative is just Heroes go first or villians go first, but you can get extras for one side or the other, like a boost to their rolls. or two actions, or a setback (left to the GM and group to work out), or a penalty to their rolls or defences. It is quick & easy to run (just flip the card), and gives the game a bit more interest.

On a more general note, there are a lot of free RPGs or RPG tasters out there. If your experience is pretty much D&D, explore some different options, like Fate, Fudge, GURPS, BRP etc. to see some other approaches to the hobby. And I KNOW other forum regulars can suggest many more free options to look at than I can remember...
Worth checking out the signatures of postees (is that a word? It is now...), I suspect there a few options linked there.

2D8HP
2019-04-05, 02:53 PM
I'm very partial to RuneQuest which I played a lot in the 1980's and which seemed more "realistic".

There's a new edition that incorporates some Pendragon like rules (which is another favorite).

Here's a sample Free PDF of the "quickstart" rules (https://www.chaosium.com/content/FreePDFs/RuneQuest/CHA4027%20-%20RuneQuest%20Quickstart.pdf).

I do warn you though, unlike the '78 rulebook, the new 2018 full rulebook is physically very heavy.

As for how "realism" changes play: Characters die easier and take longer to heal when injured - so you play more PC's, and you sonetimes play more cautiously, but that was true of old D&D as well.

geppetto
2019-04-05, 09:16 PM
You'd probably want to do specific hit locations and different HP amounts per body part. Realistically randomize damage more too. Its amazing how badly some people can be hurt and survive and how lightly other people can get hurt and die.

You'd definitely have a death spiral effect if your going for realism. And Healing would be much slower.

You'd probably want to do a fatigue mechanic where you automatically take fatigue damage each round. Maybe less if you fight defensively then if you take a full attack.

I'm also inclined to say that the size of a creature should make more difference in their HP.

Initiative done realistically would be rolled each round and you'd probably want weapon speeds to affect it.

All in all combat would be swingier, more deadly and take quite a while to recover from.

You could do it but the result would be a game where players try very hard to avoid any fight they havent totally rigged in their favor. Theres nothing wrong with that, but it would be a different kind of game.

You would also want to give XP for things other then combat primarily.

detritus
2019-04-11, 05:25 PM
You'd probably want to do specific hit locations and different HP amounts per body part. Realistically randomize damage more too. Its amazing how badly some people can be hurt and survive and how lightly other people can get hurt and die.
You'd definitely have a death spiral effect if your going for realism. And Healing would be much slower.
You'd probably want to do a fatigue mechanic where you automatically take fatigue damage each round. Maybe less if you fight defensively then if you take a full attack.
I'm also inclined to say that the size of a creature should make more difference in their HP.
Initiative done realistically would be rolled each round and you'd probably want weapon speeds to affect it.
All in all combat would be swingier, more deadly and take quite a while to recover from.
You could do it but the result would be a game where players try very hard to avoid any fight they havent totally rigged in their favor. Theres nothing wrong with that, but it would be a different kind of game.
You would also want to give XP for things other then combat primarily.

This is pretty much what I have done, with a few differences. I have a fatigue system that reduces points per round and when taking damage but that allows you to fight on below zero fatigue because of the adrenalin (until you hit the buffers). Combat initiative is rolled once per combat, rather than per combat round, mainly for the sake of my sanity :) I have HP per location, damage modifiers per location - yes you can lose an arm but keep going for a while - and combat tends to be short and sharp.

Arbane
2019-04-11, 06:02 PM
Mind you, 'realism' includes people falling out of airplanes without a parachute and surviving AND people falling off a chair and dying.
Reality is under no obligation to make sense.

Mr Beer
2019-04-11, 06:17 PM
GURPS is quite high on the simulationist scale and I think GURPS lite is free.

I swapped from D&D to GURPS specifically because of the combat system decades ago, effectively playing D&D with a GURPS engine. If you like the mechanics, they have a Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying game (DFRPG) which is marketed specifically for people who want that kind of thing. That might be worth looking at because GURPS is more a tool-kit to build systems than a system itself and putting it together yourself is a PITA until you master the learning curve, whereas DFRPG is ready to go.

Also the Steve Jackson GURPS forum has a bunch of experienced GMs and game designers who will answer n00b questions, it's a great resource for anyone getting into GURPS.

Clistenes
2019-04-11, 06:48 PM
There's no attack rolls instead u roll damage against the armor class

I would use opposed attack rolls (or combat ability rolls) to decide who hits who, and afterwards a damage roll against armor class to decide the damage...

That is, unless one of the two combatants is flat-footed (automatic hit unless the attacker rolls a 1).

MrZJunior
2019-04-12, 12:24 PM
The combat in The Riddle of Steel is supposed to be based off the creator's experience with HEMA. I've never personally looked at it so I can't tell you much beyond that.

Gallowglass
2019-04-12, 12:54 PM
Realism can be tough when it comes to combat in roleplaying games

DM "You get stabbed by a dagger for 7 dmg"

Player "Ok I'm going to five foot step back and run toward..."

DM "Actually, if you just got stabbed by a dagger, the pain would be excrutiating and keep you from running or really doing anything other than grabbing your gut and moaning."

Player "But that's only like a tenth of my hitpoints"

DM "Yeah, you are laying on the floor groaning and watching your blood pool out through your fingers. Everything is going cold and dark."

Mark Hall
2019-04-12, 01:19 PM
Realism can be tough when it comes to combat in roleplaying games

DM "You get stabbed by a dagger for 7 dmg"

Player "Ok I'm going to five foot step back and run toward..."

DM "Actually, if you just got stabbed by a dagger, the pain would be excrutiating and keep you from running or really doing anything other than grabbing your gut and moaning."

Player "But that's only like a tenth of my hitpoints"

DM "Yeah, you are laying on the floor groaning and watching your blood pool out through your fingers. Everything is going cold and dark."

Hackmaster as a "Threshold of Pain", which is 30% + level of HP (30% + 2*level for fighter; flat 40% for monsters, just to keep it easy). If you take that in a single hit, after damage reduction from armor and shield, you have to make a Trauma save (under 1/2 constitution on d20p) or drop, unable to act, for 5 seconds for every point by which you failed, or several minutes if you rolled a 20 (poor bastard).

A common fighting technique in Hackmaster is what I call the "Ol' ToP'n'Chop", where the fighter inflicts damage, and the thief (with their 3 second coup de grace) kills them on the ground.

FaerieGodfather
2019-04-12, 01:25 PM
Something like each round being 30 seconds so that someone making 3+ attacks and movement etc isn't within a 6 second period

Firing two arrows accurately within six seconds is perfectly realistic. In D&D, firing three arrows in six seconds requires either magical powers or a superhuman level of skill.

Don't ask yourself whether or not something is "realistic". Ask yourself-- realisticaly-- what kind of gameplay experience you're trying to deliver.

D&D was never supposed to be realistic, but at low levels it's a lot closer than anyone seems to want to give it credit for.

awa
2019-04-12, 01:36 PM
Realism can be tough when it comes to combat in roleplaying games

DM "You get stabbed by a dagger for 7 dmg"

Player "Ok I'm going to five foot step back and run toward..."

DM "Actually, if you just got stabbed by a dagger, the pain would be excrutiating and keep you from running or really doing anything other than grabbing your gut and moaning."

Player "But that's only like a tenth of my hitpoints"

DM "Yeah, you are laying on the floor groaning and watching your blood pool out through your fingers. Everything is going cold and dark."

injuries are weird sometimes a single stab is incapacitating and sometimes you can get stabbed a dozen times and literally not notice while the adrenaline flows, even if those injuries latter prove to be fatal.

however trying to model that accurately would be really complicated and probably annoying. Every die roll slows down combat and the slower the combat the less fun it is, so you need to balance verisimilitude and ease of play.

Knaight
2019-04-12, 05:43 PM
First things first: Familiarize yourself with some other RPGs that do things in other ways. You're talking about using extremely common designs as if they're untested new ideas (point buy instead of classes) and that's never a good sign.


Something like each round being 30 seconds so that someone making 3+ attacks and movement etc isn't within a 6 second period
Secondly, go do some stick fighting or something, or just watch some HEMA. 3+ attacks in 6 seconds is pretty common, and while it's not necessarily there in every 6 second period in a duel (there's often some amount of standing, defense probing, etc. before the tempo really picks up) in a skirmish things get real active real fast.

Bohandas
2019-04-12, 06:45 PM
Fights would be quicker in terms of rounds, except maybe at level 1. Hitpoints would need to be lower and some weapons would hit faster or harder.

They might go slower in terms of actual play time though, as you'd probably have to, for example, determine a blow connecting and that same blow getting throuh armor, seperately, and different weapons would have different effectiveness against armor