View Full Version : [Base Class] Chaos Knight

2007-10-03, 12:44 AM
Hi everyone, tell me if this class is balanced. Also any help on making a table that works in this forum would be greatly appreciated, I don't know how to do it. Also I know this class looks a lot like the Chaos Knight PrC Lord_Gareth presented here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58244&highlight=sanity. Not exactly the same and not really keeping up with what he was trying to do, but enough similarities that I PMed Lord_Gareth before making this class and already obtained permission to do so.

Chaos Knight

There is always one person who wants to be different. In some this merely means making choices others do not. In a few, their desire to be unique goes so far that they want to be unique each and every day. These are the Chaos Knights.
Adventures: Chaos Knights may adventure for many reasons, but the most common one is a pure chaotic feeling that makes them want to do a variety of things. In adventuring, the one career choice that can let you do anything, the Chaos Knight can do this.
Characteristics: Chaos Knights are unlike any other class. Almost everything about them is touched with the maddening insidious power of chaos, distorting and changing all it touches.
Alignment: The Chaos Knight must be chaotic. They are so influenced by its sway that should they ever all into the realm of order the consequences can be dire. While they may be either good or evil, the vast majority of Chaos Knights are Chaotic Neutral.
Religion: While some Chaos Knights worship their respective racial Gods, many owe their allegiance to no particular deity. They cannot muster up the conviction and devotion to worship one deity. Those who do often worship chaotic deities like Xal.
Background: A Chaos Knight is usually a Chaos Knight from birth. One cannot simply become a Chaos Knight unless they were always able to become one. To become one a person must be touched by the spark of pure elemental chaos.
Races: The ineffable spark of elemental chaos that infuses the Chaos Knight can appear in any race, regardless of it’s intelligence, attributes, or power.
Other Classes: Many find the Chaos Knight to be strange at best. Working with an insane agent of Chaos can be trying at times. It can at times be hard to count on the Chaos Knight, and this especially irks the more planning oriented classes, like Wizards or Paladin’s.

Class Skills

The class skills for the Chaos Knight are determined randomly. When the player takes his first level in this class they roll 5d10. Each time you roll you correspond that number to one of the 45 class skills listed in the PHB. A roll of eleven would grant you Escape Artist as a class skill, since it is the eleventh class skill on table 4-2 on the sixty-third page of the PHB. A roll of 46-50 means the player can choose a class skill from the list. This process is repeated 5d4 times, until the player has a total list of class skills.

Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) x 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2+ Int modifier.

Class Features

Abilities: Charisma is an important ability for any Chaos Knight, as it will provide the basis for many of their abilities. Strength can be important due to the Chaos Knights role in combat and Constitution can provide extra hit points.
Alignment: Any Chaotic.
Hit Die: d10.
Starting Gold: 6d4x10 (150 gp)

Level Base Attack Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special
1 +1 +2 +0 +0 Chaos Blessing, Insane, Chaotic Smiting 1/Encounter
2 +2 +3 +0 +0 Mind of Chaos (+2), Chaos Mantle 1/Day
3 +3 +3 +1 +1 Grip of Chaos
4 +4 +4 +1 +1 Student of Chaos
5 +5 +4 +1 +1 Chaotic Smiting 2/Encounter
6 +6/1 +5 +2 +2 Mind of Chaos (re-roll), Variance 1/Day
7 +7/2 +5 +2 +2 Banish Law
8 +8/3 +6 +2 +2 Chaos Mantle 2/Day
9 +9/4 +6 +3 +3 Variance 2/Day
10 +10/5 +7 +3 +3 Greater Chaos Blessing, Chaotic Smiting 3/Encounter
11 +11/6/1 +7 +3 +3 Wildstrike
12 +12/7/2 +8 +4 +4 Variance 3/Day
13 +13/8/3 +8 +4 +4 Chaos Transcendence
14 +14/9/4 +9 +4 +4 Mind of Chaos (Immune)
15 +15/10/5 +9 +5 +5 Variance 4/Day, Chaotic Smiting 4/Encounter
16 +16/11/6/1 +10 +5 +5 Wildsurge
17 +17/12/7/2 +10 +5 +5 Touch of Instability
18 +18/13/8/3 +11 +6 +6 Variance 5/Day
19 +19/14/9/4 +11 +6 +6 Chaos Mantle 3/Day
20 +20/15/10/5 +12 +6 +6 Touch of Chaos, Chaotic Smiting 5/Encounter

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The Chaos Knight is proficient with simple and martial weapons, all types of armor, and with shields.

Chaos Blessing: At the beginning of each day, roll 1d6 and consult the following table - the Chaos Knight gains the result.
1: Fire Resist 5 (+1 per level of this class)
2: DR 5/Lawful (+1/Lawful per level of this class)
3: Sonic Resist 5 (+1 per level of this class)
4: Acid Resist 5 (+1 per level of this class)
5: Electricity Resist 5 (+1 per level of this class)
6: Cold Resist 5 (+1 per level of this class)

Insane: At the beginning of each day the Chaos Knight must roll a d10. On a natural roll of 1 the Chaos Knight’s inherent insanity is brought out in the open. He becomes temporarily insane. Roll on table 4-3 on page 66 of Heroes of Horror. On levels 1-10 the effect is Mild, whereas on levels 11-20 the effect is moderate. The Wildsurge class ability might also induce insanity of different degrees. The Chaos Knight is always treated as having the necessary Taint score for any PrC, Spell, or Feat, regardless of his actual Taint Score.

Chaotic Smiting: Starting at first level the Chaos Knight gains the ability to smite random alignment a certain number of times per encounter. After deciding that he wishes to use this ability he rolls a d4. On a roll of one his smite affects good, on a 2 it affects evil, on 3 it affects law, and on 4 it affects chaos. If the person smitten does not possess the alignment indicated, the smite does nothing and it is wasted. Should it succeed however the attack gains a bonus equal to the Chaos Knights charisma modifier, and a damage bonus equal to the amount of Chaos Knight levels he has.

Mind of Chaos: The Chaos Knight’s mind is constantly fracturing under the weight of his chaotic tendencies. This makes his mind particularly difficult to control or influence. At second level he gains a +2 circumstance bonus to any save vs. mind affecting spells or effects. At sixth level whenever such an effect affects him, he is allowed a second saving throw one round later at the original DC to try to break the control or effect. At fourteenth level, he is immune to all mind affecting spells or effects.

Chaos Mantle: As an immediate action the Chaos Knight can shift the laws of probability and chance to protect him. Should he activate this in response to a melee attack or melee touch spell the attacker must roll his attack again, taking the worse result. In response to a targeted spell or ranged touch spell the spell instead affects any random target within 20 feet of the Chaos Knight, including both the Chaos Knight and the spells originator in the spells new list of targets, provided he is in the new range.

Grip of Chaos: Starting at third level, any creature that strikes the Chaos Knight in melee rolls 1d12 and consults the following table, immediately suffering the result (no save, all bonuses/penalties cumulative). This effect lasts for one round.
1: +2 Strength
2: -2 Charisma
3: -2 Constitution
4: +2 Wisdom
5: -2 Dexterity
6: +2 Dexterity
7: -2 Strength
8: +2 Intelligence
9: -2 Wisdom
10: +2 Charisma
11: +2 Constitution
12: -2 Intelligence

Variance: The Chaos Knight is the source of constant eddies in fate and probability. As such a certain amount of times per day the Chaos Knight can choose to attempt to alter a roll he has just made. He is allowed an immediate re-roll, but must take the second result, even if it is worse. The Chaos Knight can choose to enact Variance even after he found whether his original roll was successful or failed. The Chaos Knight can only ever affect a single roll once with Variance, though he may use it in conjunction with any other ability that allows a re-roll, including but not limited to Student of Chaos or the Luck Domain ability.

Student of Chaos: Whenever a Chaos Knight of fourth level or higher uses a magic item that offers a randomly determined effect (like a Rod of Wonder or a Bag of Tricks) he may roll twice and choose whichever roll he likes better. If a random roll is made only once to determine an item’s properties (like an Iron Flask or a Robe of Bones) then this ability does not apply.

Banish Law: Starting at seventh level the Chaos Knight puts out an aura of pure chaos. He is surrounded by a Dispel Law effect with a thirty-foot radius. This effect is as if a cleric of the Chaos Knight’s level had cast it. The second effect of the spell automatically applies to all within its range, but once affected a creature cannot be subject to dismissal again for 24 hours. By concentrating he can use the final effect of the spell, but should this be successful the Chaos Knight’s aura is lost for the remainder of the day.

Greater Chaos Blessing: This functions exactly as Chaos Blessing, except you roll on the table provided below. These effects are in addition to the effects of Chaos Blessing.
1: Fire Immunity
2: Fast Healing 1 (+1 for every three levels in this class)
3: Sonic Immunity
4: Acid Immunity
5: Electricity Immunity
6: Cold Immunity

Wildstrike: Once a day at eleventh level the Chaos Knight can infuse one of his melee attacks with the taint of pure chaos. After finding out if the attack hits but before you roll damage you can choose to apply a Wildstrike. The attack then does no damage, but instead wreathes your foe in a haze of shifting chaotic colors and lights. The creature is then dazzled and whenever they attempt to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability the intended action fails. Instead they roll as though they activated a Rod of Wonder. This effect lasts 2d6 rounds.

Chaos Transcendence: At thirteenth level, the Chaos Knight gains the Chaotic subtype, as well as one randomly determined subtype from the list of all available subtypes (such as shapechanger, tanar'i, archon, cold, etc.).

Wildsurge: After reaching sixteenth level the Chaos Knight can turn his body into what is practically a Rod of Wonder. At any time he can use a standard action to roll as if he activated a Rod of Wonder. As a result he immediately becomes insane. If he was already insane for the day the old effects are gone. He now must randomly roll on the Severe Depravity table on page 66 of Heroes of Horror. When rolling on the Rod of Wonder effects his Student of Chaos ability applies, even though there is no actual magical item.

Touch of Instability: At seventeenth level the power of chaos is so strong in the Chaos Knight that he can harness it and affect others with it. Once a day he may make a melee touch attack to influence another with this gift. Should it succeed the target must make a Fortitude save (DC=10+the Chaos Knights Charisma score, not modifier). If the target fails to make the save it causes a terrible transformation turning the creature into a spongy amorphous mass. An affected creature is unable to hold or use any item. Clothing, armor, rings, and helmets become useless. Large items worn or carried—armor, backpacks, even shirts—hamper more than help, reducing the victim’s Dexterity score by 4. Soft or misshapen feet and legs reduce speed to 10 feet or one-quarter normal, whichever is less. Searing pain courses along the nerves, so strong that the victim cannot act coherently. The victim cannot cast spells or use magic items, and it attacks blindly, unable to distinguish friend from foe (-4 penalty on attack rolls and a 50% miss chance, regardless of the attack roll). Each round the victim spends in an amorphous state causes 1 point of Wisdom drain from mental shock. If the victim’s Wisdom score falls to 0, it becomes incurably tainted and no magic can ever restore it. A victim can regain its own shape by taking a standard action to attempt a fortitude save with a DC equal to the original save against this ability. A success reestablishes the creature’s normal form for 1 minute. On a failure, the victim can still repeat this check each round until successful. The instability is not a disease or a curse and so is hard to remove. A shapechange or stoneskin spell does not cure an afflicted creature but fixes its form for the duration of the spell. A restoration, heal, or greater restoration spell removes the affliction (a separate restoration is necessary to restore any drained points of Wisdom).

Touch of Chaos: Starting at tenth level, the Chaos Knight has been blessed - or cursed - by ultimate chaos. His mind fractures into four separate entities - the original and three others. Each persona has different mental ability scores, but all use the same equipment and physical ability scores. Treat them otherwise as entirely separate characters, with their own alignments and class progressions, feats, skill points, etc. Each time the character gains a new level all the other personalities do as well. At the beginning of each day, roll 1d4 to determine which personality is in control for the day. All the Chaos Knights personalities receive the benefit of Mind of Chaos, though they all must gain the penalties associated with the Insanity ability as well.

Ex-Chaos Knights
A Chaos Knight who ceases to be Chaotic loses all Chaos Knight abilities (including the Insanity penalties, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). He may not progress any farther in levels as Chaos Knight. He regains his abilities and advancement potential if he atones for his violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.

2007-10-03, 08:15 AM
Thank god you're not making a warhammer cross-over, you had me worried there for a second.

Kinda like a paladin of freedom without having to be good.

2007-10-03, 08:50 AM
*Shrugs* I see almost no connection between the two classes, but whatever works for you. :smallsmile:

2007-10-03, 02:18 PM
I like ^_^

However, I -hate- Student of Chaos. What the hell is chaotic about that ability? I swear, I'm -butchering- whatever WotC employee thought up of that and dared call it chaotic. I'd reccomend something else.

2007-10-04, 05:41 AM
I know it isn't uber chaotic like your idea of what chaos should be, lol. I was more going along the lines of making chaos and the altering of chance and fate work for you, by tapping into his primal chaotic power. This goes along with that veiw of chaos.

2007-10-04, 10:43 AM
I think Chaos Blessing to too powerful for 1st LVL. I know it changes every day, but an ability that lets you shrug off damage is a bit much.

2007-10-04, 11:50 AM
It is powerful, yes. But keep in mind it is impossible to build a concept that relies or uses that, because there is only a one in six chance of having it each day. Even then, should you manage to get it, it is highly unlikely you get it a second day in a row, and most adventures take morethen a few game days to complete.

However I also acknowledge that what you say has merit. It is indeed a powerful ability. There are three reasons I thought it justified, and I fully understand if you disagree with them. The first is that the Class Concept is manipulating fate and chance by using chaotic abiulties, usually to provide buff's or defense. This fell in line with that. The second reason I thought it justified was that the Dread Necromancer, a class I think of as balanced, has DR only a level later, only that DR is constant and able to be relied upon, whereas this DR is not. The last reason is that I realized the class was a touch powerful, and added in something that I thought went nicely with teh class thematically as well as tempering the class's power. The Insane ability. I feel this, along with teh other reasons I have stated, allow the Chaos Knight to gain the Chaos Blessing ability at first level. Perhaps I am wrong, but those are my thoughts on the matter.

Rigel Cyrosea
2007-10-04, 12:34 PM
I have a couple of problems with this class. First, Touch of Chaos. You have four different class progressions? That means that you're only a chaos knight one quarter of the time! I would just take that ability out. Secondly, the save DC for Touch of Instability is WAY too high.
Starting Charisma of 16, plus four ability increases, and a +6 item gives you a DC of 40, easily. The DC should be changed to 10 + Class levels, + cha mod, or even 10 + 1/2 class levels + cha mod. The first would give you a DC of 35, which is still very, very, high.

2007-10-04, 12:49 PM
I disagree because the afflicted can continue to make saves each round at the same DC, and suceeding at just one would give you back your original form for ten rounds. Plus the thing needed to cure them, a restoration, heal, or greater restoration spell, is really easy to get at seventeenth level and above. And finally, he is only able to use this without doubt powerful ability once in a given day, so it is not like this is a major weapon for him. It is more akin to a "nuke" power, like a wizards highest level spell. It is akin to a 9th level spell a wizard can cast. And wizards can cast several of them a day. Plus he needs to suceed at a melee touch attack for it to even be plausible, if he fails in that his use for the day is wasted.

That being said, I realize I might be wrong on balance issues, I cannot trust my own opinion really, since I am prejudiced towards my own creation. Therefore if a few more people say that they beleive as you do, I will change the DC as you have indicated.

2007-10-04, 12:56 PM
Oh, and I forgot to adress what you said about Touch of Chaos ability. I fail to see the problem in what you are saying. Why is it bad to be the Chaos Knight only one fourth of the time. This is I think a great ability. I wish I had invented it (thanks Lord_Gareth). It is extremely fun while still not being overpowered. It is fun RP-wise, as the character gets to RP someone with a mondo case of multiple personality disorder. It is fun mechanics-wise, since the player now gets to essentially play four different classes. How can you get bored of that? But at the same time it isn't overpowered. In fact, I would say this ability might actually make the class weaker once you have it. Think about it. The Chaos Knight is a melee combatant, their scores are placed for such, leaving them not much room to branch into arcane or divine spellcasters (which is good, if they are relied upon as the tank of the group). Also all of their items and magical stuff, including common gear and weapons, is designed for the Chaos Knight, not for another class. In summation, I really enjoy this ability, it is easily my favorite of the class, and I cannot see myself giving it up, even were you to provide more sufficient reason then you have.

Rigel Cyrosea
2007-10-04, 04:56 PM
You see, I see the touch of chaos ability compeletly differently. If I picked the Chaos Knight class, I want to be a Chaos Knight. I do not want to be in some other class with a sub-par ability spread 75% of the time. If I wanted to play those other classes, I would have picked them. You should at least give people the choice of whether they want to use that ability. Not everyone appreciates having to play a randomly determined character each day.
As for the touch of instability, consider this situation. The party enters the final room in the dungeon. They face the BBEG, a dark wizard. Chaos Knight runs up and touch attacks the wizard. If the wizard is level 20, has 14 con and a cloak of resistance +2, his save bonus is +10. He cannot make the save unless he gets a twenty. While he is trying to roll this twenty, he cannot cast spells, he's easy to hit, he can't move fast, and he's losing wisdom. Chances are before he makes his save, he's going to have lost all of his wisdom, and/or be dead. Now consider if he was a fighter. Fort save +12 at level 20, plus 18 con and cloak +2 gives him +18 on his save. He still needs a twenty to make the save! Nobody, short of an epic level dwarven defender, is going to make that save.

2007-10-04, 05:14 PM
I know it isn't uber chaotic like your idea of what chaos should be, lol. I was more going along the lines of making chaos and the altering of chance and fate work for you, by tapping into his primal chaotic power. This goes along with that veiw of chaos.

Maybe one version could be called a Chaos Knight, the other could be called a Slaadi knight

2007-10-04, 05:32 PM
Rigel - you have a very good point. I made the ability on a whim formed from lack of sleep, my own inherant insanity, anger at Wizards for screwing up Chaos so badly (FIND ME ONE CHAOTIC SPELL OR ABILITY IN ANY OF THEIR SO-CALLED CHAOTIC CLASSES THAT'S ACTUALLY WORTH A DAMN! I DEFY YOU TO DO IT!), and various other subconcious reasons. I am, however, rather proud of it now - there's sure to be some compromise we can make about Touch of Chaos.

2007-10-04, 05:54 PM
Awesome class!:smallsmile: wish I thought of it first!

Rigel Cyrosea
2007-10-04, 07:21 PM
Touch of Chaos is an interesting ability, but for some people it's more annoying than it's worth. Maybe it could be an optional variant, or something?

2007-10-04, 07:28 PM
Hmm...tell you what, give me a few days, and with Xeran's permission, I'll come up with an alternate 20th level ability.

While you're up and about, mind checking out the Harrowed?

2007-10-05, 04:38 AM
You can make whatever variants you wish, I am keeping the ability. As for people not having a choice about getting the ability, of course they do. They can not take twenty levels in the class. Take 19, or none, if you don't want what it has to offer. Also I fail to see why the abilities become sub-par?

As for your concerns about Touch of Instability, consider this. At that same situation instead of a Chaos Knight you have a Wizard in the party. He manages to come out first in the initiative order and decides to cast the Power Word Kill spell. This enemy, loaded up with magical porotections and shields, felt almost invulnerable despite his low HP count. And yet now, with NO save, he is dead. Or he casts time stop and then fires a three or four disintegration spells, all of which he needs to save and die from. Will he probably make one? Yes. However the odds of him living through such an assualt are small.

Now what does a good DM do about something like this? They fudge the game to make it a reasonable challenge if they have to, something you can still do if absolutely needed with the Chaos Knight. It is rather simple to do, just fudge the touch AC for the guy, the Chaos Knight tries to touch him, fails, and loses his ability for the day.

However, like I said before, if a few more people also think as you do concerning the save, I will change it.

2007-10-05, 08:01 PM
Now what does a good DM do about something like this?

For lack of a good DM I'm going to rule that, if (and I still haven't decided yet) I allow you to use this class in my campaign the DC should be 10+ 1/2 Class level + Cha mod

A fighter of equal level would (barring an exceptional Con score) fail this on a rolled 10.

2007-10-05, 08:08 PM
Okay Xeran, let me lay it on you straight - telling them to just have the DM fudge rolls is B.S. and makes me want to pimp slap you so far into nonlethal you'll wake up in edition 50. The ability is overpowered severely - fix it. You asked for advice, and the forum is giving it to you. Listen.

2007-10-05, 08:43 PM
You asked for advice, and the forum is giving it to you. Listen.

Well, technically I told him to ask for advice before I'd consider allowing the class for my game, but I agree with you. That's why I ruled as I did in my above post.
Of course you're still free to keep the DC as is in other games...

Do people think my ruling was good? Would 10 + class level + cha mod be better. Ok, I know it's better, but is it more balanced?

Rigel Cyrosea
2007-10-06, 10:24 AM
When a twentieth level character needs a twenty to make the save, it's too high. I think it should really be 10 + 1/2 class levels, + cha mod.

2007-10-06, 12:01 PM
Very cool class :smallcool:
The DR effect of the Chaos Blessing seems insanely powerful to me, especially at low levels when it is unlikely that anyone will either have lawfully aligned weapons and will lose a big chunk of their damage. Maybe DR=(1/2 HD)/Lawful
Touch of chaos seems weird but an interesting thing to play, though it might become tiring to suddenly be a Cleric for a week when you really want to be smiting law.

My 2cp

2007-10-06, 12:07 PM
As for your concerns about Touch of Instability, consider this. At that same situation instead of a Chaos Knight you have a Wizard in the party. He manages to come out first in the initiative order and decides to cast the Power Word Kill spell. This enemy, loaded up with magical porotections and shields, felt almost invulnerable despite his low HP count. And yet now, with NO save, he is dead. Or he casts time stop and then fires a three or four disintegration spells, all of which he needs to save and die from. Will he probably make one? Yes. However the odds of him living through such an assualt are small.

A) PWK only works on enemies with 100 hp or less. Nobody with less than 100 hp has any right to feel invulnerable.

B) You can't cast Disintigrate in a Time Stop. Nor can you cast any other spell that immediately affects a non-accelerated person.

2007-10-06, 01:27 PM
Touch of chaos is certainly a weird feature, though not necessarily a bad one. It could use a little bit of clarification, though, as to how the new personalities are generated. Do you roll up new mental stats for each, and then assign a class randomly (woo 12 wisdom cleric!), do you rearrange your mental stats and then decide a class randomly, do you randomly decide on 3 classes and 3 new sets of ability scores and then match them up appropriately? To me, the latter seems the only reasonable way to do it, but it's not particularly chaotic.

Also, as for the chaos blessing, DR 5/lawful is pretty powerful even at later levels, because so few things can overcome it. That kind of DR at level one (or DR in the 20s at later levels) is just ridiculous. You compared it to the dread necromancer's ability, but the DN only has DR 2 when they first get the ability, and it's overcome by any bludgeoning and magic attack (which includes the bites, slams and tentacles of many magical beasts and other creatures). DR lawful, on the other hand, is basically only overcome by devils, modrons/inevitables/formians/other stuff from mechanus, archons, and a few other oddball creatures. Aside from the occasional devil, the party is really fairly unlikely to spend much time fighting these monsters.

As an alternative, perhaps you could change 6s to "reroll again twice" on the table of resistances. I'd say that's even more in flavor with the idea of chaos (since occasionally you could end up with 3 or even 4 resistances), and is much more balanced in both the short and the long run.

And my two cents on touch of instability: just bear in mind that balancing against a 20th level wizard using the most broken spells available to him isn't really "balancing." Capstone abilities should be powerful, but "it's no worse than a wizard casting timestop and dropping 3 delayed blast fireballs" or "come on, a cleric at that level could be casting a divine metamagiced persistent shapechange!" are not really compelling arguments.

2007-10-06, 02:14 PM
I was going under the assumption your characters are not power gamers. If they are, you shouldn't be letting any non-core things in your game, if you play with them at all.

As for how you create your three separate personalities, i would assume you do half of whatever you did to get abilities in the beginning. If you rolled 4d6 and took the highest three, do so again. If you had 32 point buy, now you have 16 point buy to spread among those scores. And the player would get to pick the class progression, skills, feats, etc. themselves.

Rigel Cyrosea
2007-10-06, 02:51 PM
I was going under the assumption your characters are not power gamers. If they are, you shouldn't be letting any non-core things in your game, if you play with them at all.
1. Power gamers are not the same thing as munchkins.
2. Core is not any inherantly balanced than most splatbooks.
3. A blanket ban on all non-core is not the standard procedure for most DMs to prevent munchkinry. Overpowered characters are usually assesed on a case-by-case basis.
4. Don't tell me (or anyone else) what I should and shouldn't be doing with my games, especially on faulty reasoning.

2007-10-06, 04:50 PM
Look, I am sincerely sorry if you took offense at my words, they were not intended as such. You seem angry however, so i offer my apology. My comments were not meant to offend any, except perhaps those who knowingly break/bend the rules so that their characters are more powerful then others. I do however find fault with your comment that Core is no less balanced then splatbooks. I believe that lack of extensive playtesting of splatbooks in conjunction with each other and with core is the reason why uber builds and other types of munchkinnry are even possible.

2007-10-06, 08:45 PM
I'm going to say that Chaos Blessing must be changed (at least in my game): remove the DR and make a 6 re-roll twice.

What I am doing is trying to allow you to play what you want while keeping it balanced and fitting with the setting.

2007-10-07, 05:15 AM
*shrugs* Your the boss, boss.

2007-10-07, 07:51 AM
Okay, I would like it noted that the original DR was 5 + cha mod, not level in class. Second - what the hell is so bad about DR 5 once you get past level three or so? Seriously, there are innumerable ways to beat that - magic missle, acid flasks, that raging orc charging straight at you with a greatsword, a scythe trap - that its almost inconsequential. Furthermore, it happens, on average, ONCE EVERY SIX DAYS.


Rigel Cyrosea
2007-10-07, 08:53 AM
It's not that each splatbook is more unbalanced than core, it's when you start combining several splatbooks together, taking a class from one, and a feat from another, ect... that they become unblanced.

2007-10-07, 09:03 AM
Which is why it is the responsibility of the DM to work with players and ensure that munchkins and powergamers don't find their way into an otherwise fun campaign.

Of course, I'm biased, as I hate both >.>

And for those of you who believe Core is balanced, I have a few names for you - Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Spiked Chain.

I rest my case.

2007-10-07, 03:05 PM
If you exploit them, sure. And Rigel, I beleive you just repeated what I said. Don't beleive me? Re-read my second to last comment.

smart thog
2007-10-08, 03:17 PM
Okay, I would like it noted that the original DR was 5 + cha mod, not level in class. Second - what the hell is so bad about DR 5 once you get past level three or so? Seriously, there are innumerable ways to beat that - magic missle, acid flasks, that raging orc charging straight at you with a greatsword, a scythe trap - that its almost inconsequential. Furthermore, it happens, on average, ONCE EVERY SIX DAYS.


I agree with Lord, Dr 5 is handy, but not as much as you might think because at the time it could stop a decent blow (10 damage or higher) things will be hitting for a lot more then that, and, like every thing else about this class, its random.

2007-10-08, 03:47 PM
Looks cool, but I don't have Heroes of Horror. Could you edit to give the tables? Thanks:smallsmile:

2007-10-08, 04:17 PM
Overall, I like the class. I'm not crazy about the "Touch of Chaos" ability, simply because (IMO) it would be like trying to keep track of 4 characters, which at level 20 is a pretty significant task. Flavor-wise it's neat, but in practice I'd don't think I'd use it in my games.

As far as the save DC, I do agree that 10+1/2 class level + cha modifer is about right. That save DC is pretty standard across the board for spell-like abilities gained by classes.

I do like the class. I'd most likely tweak a few things if I let my players use it or if I used it in a game, but overall it's pretty neat.

2007-10-08, 08:45 PM
Thank you Hzurr.

And Foehammer, unfortunatly the mental corruption section of HoH is a few pages long, I don't want to type it all up, lol. I might if I needed to to get my character in a game, but otherwise it is just way more work then i want to do right now, sorry. If someone else has HoH and wanted to give it to him that would be great. Sorry again.