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Zhorn
2019-05-03, 11:17 AM
So one of my player is likely to change character's very soon and has the bare-bone set up for a celestial warlock to be introduced when the story fits.
As is the usual case for integrating my player's characters into the story, I get to tweak aspects of the character's story that makes sense for them to not have direct agency over (motivations and behaviours of mentors, contacts, rivals, etc), and so I've got a lot of free reign over the exact nature of the warlocks patron.
The player wants to have their warlock be blind as part of the pact, with the celestial patron taking away their eyesight in exchange for power (they'll be using a familiar to see, so it'll mostly be for RP flavor, of which they are good at committing to).

So yeah; celestial patron, takes the players vision away as part of the pact.

Ideas?

note: Just to be clear, the patron is a 'good' entity, though whether it is good in the sense of protecting the realms from evil, or good in the sense of fighting what it defines as 'evil' by any means necessary is yet to be decided on.

more notes:
The player has given me a few of the details they have locked in:
Half elf, 100+ years old (old man)
Eyes are intact and don't look any different to regular eyes (just he cannot see anything out of them).

Think of it like the type of binding in The Little Mermaid, where the 'voice' is taken. The responsible body part isn't removed, just the function.
Has not been in the same physical location as the patron.

More notes:
This is wholly to do with the patron's motivations. The player gets to choose the personality and actions of their character, and as such should have no bearing on the topic beyond accepting the conditions of the pact.
I don't want to come across as rude over that, but it's a hard line I try to maintain as to not interfere with the agency of my players. If something requires the player character to think/feel/believe something in order to work or make sense, my answer is strictly no. The Patron's motivations should be wholly independent of the player's opinion on the matter.

NRSASD
2019-05-03, 11:46 AM
I'll be honest, I don't really understand Celestial Warlock patrons. Selling your soul, signing a contract for power, scream "not Good" to me. Even in the edge cases, where someone willingly dedicates their soul to eternal service for Good, isn't that what a paladin or cleric already promises?

Regardless, here's my takes on motives:
1. The warlock looked upon something so pure, so powerful, so GOOD, that they were rendered blind by the experience. Not blind as in "your eyes burned away" but blind as in "you've seen such absolute perfection, only once, that anything else pales in comparison so badly that your mind would rather relive that moment than process a new image". Like going deaf after listening to the world's most perfect music.
2. Vision is a distraction, and blindness is necessary. You cannot wield the powers I provide unless you focus so well that sight itself would distract you. Alternatively, maybe evil corrupts by sight. You can't covet/lust after what you can't see, right?
3. Accidentally. The character was a hapless bystander who got singed by holy fire when the saints came marching in. They were unable to heal the PC's vision cause (reasons), but promised power in exchange as an apology.
4. Proof of the PC's dedication to the cause. The Patron wanted a sacrifice to show that the PC is serious about this whole soul-selling thing, and demanded the one thing the PC valued most: their sight.

Man_Over_Game
2019-05-03, 12:31 PM
I'll be honest, I don't really understand Celestial Warlock patrons. Selling your soul, signing a contract for power, scream "not Good" to me. Even in the edge cases, where someone willingly dedicates their soul to eternal service for Good, isn't that what a paladin or cleric already promises?

Regardless, here's my takes on motives:
1. The warlock looked upon something so pure, so powerful, so GOOD, that they were rendered blind by the experience. Not blind as in "your eyes burned away" but blind as in "you've seen such absolute perfection, only once, that anything else pales in comparison so badly that your mind would rather relive that moment than process a new image". Like going deaf after listening to the world's most perfect music.
2. Vision is a distraction, and blindness is necessary. You cannot wield the powers I provide unless you focus so well that sight itself would distract you. Alternatively, maybe evil corrupts by sight. You can't covet/lust after what you can't see, right?
3. Accidentally. The character was a hapless bystander who got singed by holy fire when the saints came marching in. They were unable to heal the PC's vision cause (reasons), but promised power in exchange as an apology.
4. Proof of the PC's dedication to the cause. The Patron wanted a sacrifice to show that the PC is serious about this whole soul-selling thing, and demanded the one thing the PC valued most: their sight.

Great suggestions right here.

To add one on, the Warlock saw something he wanted forgotten, and the Patron obliged. However it required forgetting how to see, permanently.

Alternatively, the Warlock saw something of importance and offered what he saw to the Patron in exchange for the pact. The Patron obliged, but had to extract ALL of the Warlock's sight. However, the Warlock received more power as compensation.

As for why Celestial Warlocks are a thing, not all creatures that DO good ARE good. Fire is needed for shelter, but it's also been used for much more nefarious things.

Additionally, many gods and other powers may not act as they wish. All of the gods are bound by the laws that Ao written, preventing them from interacting with the mortal world in specific ways. Patrons are not gods, and so they're exempt from these rules. While a Grave Cleric might not be allowed to work with the undead, a Celestial Warlock could.

Clerics are about doing their god's will, and are given power to do so. Paladins are about upholding a value, and are given power to do so. Warlocks are about Power, and are given instructions on how to use it. An Oath defines a Paladin, but a Patron does not define a Warlock.

Zhorn
2019-05-03, 12:56 PM
I think it would have to definitely be an intentional thing and not an accidental effect or damage.
If it was an unintended consequence, then there would reasonably (especially in a world with healing magic, regrowing body parts and the such) be a straight forward method of fixing it, be it a little expensive.
The exact wording the player has said is "their sight was taken in exchange", and so I'd like to keep that story aspect intact, and potentially tie it onto an adventure hook at some point. I'd lake to treat the 'sight' element of the pact as a very important component. I'm just having trouble coming up with an idea that really grabs my imagination.

As for the who cleric/paladin vs celestial warlock angle, I like to just chalk that up to the being the pact is made with isn't on deity levels of power, or they're doing some things 'off the reservation' and this a behind closed doors power exchange.

It's mostly just for RP fluff, but I like to imagine warlocks in my games as not so much tapping into their patron power source, but rather their patron has reached into them and twisted an aspect of their being into working a new way. Some might view it as a perversion of the soul, an unnatural and nasty shortcut to power, with the patron over time strengthening and fine tuning this change as the warlock levels up.

NRSASD
2019-05-03, 01:12 PM
As for the who cleric/paladin vs celestial warlock angle, I like to just chalk that up to the being the pact is made with isn't on deity levels of power, or they're doing some things 'off the reservation' and this a behind closed doors power exchange.

It's mostly just for RP fluff, but I like to imagine warlocks in my games as not so much tapping into their patron power source, but rather their patron has reached into them and twisted an aspect of their being into working a new way. Some might view it as a perversion of the soul, an unnatural and nasty shortcut to power, with the patron over time strengthening and fine tuning this change as the warlock levels up.

Sounds like an excellent explanation. Sorry, forgive my rant earlier; I'm not a fan of Celestial warlocks but far be it from me to rain on someone else's parade!

Idea that just came to me (though it might be unsuited for a Celestial Patron).

-Sight in exchange for power? Maybe the Patron needs their eyes... literally. Hags make hag eyes, powerful charms that can spy and spellcast, out of human eyeballs. Maybe the PC's eyes will serve some greater purpose? They could be actually ripped out of the PC's head, or maybe they're still present but transmit their images directly to the Patron now. That'd be pretty creepy; the PC's eyes constantly looking about, staring at things independent of the PC's actions.

-Maybe the PC donated their eyes to a blind priest/beggar/king/etc, and thus earned the attention of their Patron through such an act of extreme selflessness?

Man_Over_Game
2019-05-03, 01:15 PM
I think it would have to definitely be an intentional thing and not an accidental effect or damage.
If it was an unintended consequence, then there would reasonably (especially in a world with healing magic, regrowing body parts and the such) be a straight forward method of fixing it, be it a little expensive.
The exact wording the player has said is "their sight was taken in exchange", and so I'd like to keep that story aspect intact, and potentially tie it onto an adventure hook at some point. I'd lake to treat the 'sight' element of the pact as a very important component. I'm just having trouble coming up with an idea that really grabs my imagination.

As for the who cleric/paladin vs celestial warlock angle, I like to just chalk that up to the being the pact is made with isn't on deity levels of power, or they're doing some things 'off the reservation' and this a behind closed doors power exchange.

It's mostly just for RP fluff, but I like to imagine warlocks in my games as not so much tapping into their patron power source, but rather their patron has reached into them and twisted an aspect of their being into working a new way. Some might view it as a perversion of the soul, an unnatural and nasty shortcut to power, with the patron over time strengthening and fine tuning this change as the warlock levels up.

The Celestial could be creating its own life form. From this, there are two options:

The Warlock's ability to see has been transferred over to the new life form.
What the Warlock WOULD have seen is being instead transferred over to the new life form to teach it about the world.


To tack on to #1, the new life form could actually be a form for the Patron. Perhaps it is imprisoned or stuck in an ethereal form, and it is creating a new vessel, with all of the senses, to escape in.

Particle_Man
2019-05-03, 07:27 PM
What if the warlock is a grimlock? They are blind to begin with. I am not sure you have the stats for pc grimlocks but you could reskin some other race and run with it.

Edit: the grimlock is statted as an npc race in the dmg so that could be a place to start.

redwizard007
2019-05-03, 08:02 PM
I love some of the suggestions so far, but my thoughts were along darker lines.

Eyes sacrificed to the patron as a show of trust, dedication, faith, contrition, or humility.

Eyes sacrificed for knowledge (a la Odin.)

Eyes taken to protect the warlock from being destroyed by the sight of his master (or the master's foes)

Eyes burned out by the infusion of power

Is the master a blind being? That brings even more options...

Zhorn
2019-05-04, 02:09 AM
I'll copy some of these details up into the opening posts so people seeing this for the first time get a better idea of the intended direction.

The player has given me a few of the details they have locked in:
Half elf, 100+ years old (old man)
Eyes are intact and don't look any different to regular eyes (just he cannot see anything out of them)
Has not been in the same physical location as the patron.

I'm leaning towards the patron having been blinded themselves and are using the character's eyes as a way of seeing into the world, with the vision not being able to be shared the same way someone can use a familiar's vision as a 'bond' is being avoided.

Berenger
2019-05-04, 02:52 AM
Maybe the patron is a powerful nymph-like entity. When she appeared to the character in a vision (possibly as a magical "reflection" on the surface of a lake) he was affected by Blinding Beauty. He is very much in love with her and fears that restoring his eyesight will taint the vivid image burned forever into his memory.


Maybe the character is fated to fight a creature with a souped-up gaze attack such as a medusa queen or the mother of basilisks. When the battle comes, he must have mastered the art of blind fighting to perfection or he will surely perish.

Marcelinari
2019-05-04, 08:04 AM
Perhaps the patron in question is heavily skewed towards Justice as a concept. Justice is blind, after all, and this could be a mark of that Patron’s service.

Zhorn
2019-05-04, 08:49 AM
Perhaps the patron in question is heavily skewed towards Justice as a concept. Justice is blind, after all, and this could be a mark of that Patron’s service.
I'm leaning heavily in this direction. Not the 'justice is blind' part, although I do like the poetic symbolism of it.
Thinking the patron is an avatar of a now dead god (probably Helm). Say an empyrean type entity that has served as the god's personal avatar for a long time. With their creator god now dead, they are slowly being worn away, no longer able to be renewed/remade, their own eyes shattered away during some grand final stand.
Now they are desperate to continue the good fight, stand up to the encroaching darkness, but unable to do so on their own terms. As so seek to make a pact with a mortal on the material plane. Someone who can serve as their eyes and and hands.
The patron is seeing out of the character's eyes, and the 'blindness' the player is experiencing is the blindness of their patron...
Still feels like it needs a bit 'more'

Coventry
2019-05-04, 04:41 PM
You are asking us to freely give of our power unto you. Are you willing to give freely of your power to help someone else?
May I choose who I help?
No. This is not about the recipient; this is about you. The recipient of your aid may or may not be someone you deem "worthy". The recipient may or may not even want the gift. Knowing such circumstances may cloud your choice. And it must be your choice.

icefractal
2019-05-05, 04:00 PM
The idea of "words of creation" has been associated with celestial powers in several D&D sources. Going further with that, maybe the way that the patron gave him this power was to show him a page written in the true language of creation. The sight was so powerful, it replaced his vision. Not the eyes - the part of the mind capable of processing sight has been overwritten with this knowledge. This could be either with or without his knowing what was going to happen.

He can see through the familiar because its mind can still process sight, and it transmits the meaning, not the raw data. This might imply that he perceives the symbolic nature of things more than the exact details.

Cikomyr
2019-05-05, 07:15 PM
Good does not necessarily means "nice".

The idea of Good divine power blinding an evil servant of theirs reminds me of this exchange from Star Trek Deep Space 9:


[Dukat has been blinded]

Kai Winn:
You need a lesson in humility. I'm going to see that you get it.

Dukat:
By putting me out on the street?

Kai Winn:
You'll find the Bajoran people are very kind.

The Celestial Powers are granting him power, but also they are disempowering him in a way that is meant to teach him humility, and perhaps compassion.

Maybe, in the future, have the sight restored to him, and then have a random encounter with a blind beggar, to see how the Warlock would then react. To see if he has learned his lesson, or is still a self-centered individual.

Zhorn
2019-05-05, 07:59 PM
The Celestial Powers are granting him power, but also they are disempowering him in a way that is meant to teach him humility, and perhaps compassion.

Maybe, in the future, have the sight restored to him, and then have a random encounter with a blind beggar, to see how the Warlock would then react. To see if he has learned his lesson, or is still a self-centered individual.

@Cikomyr; this is not meant to be a call out to you in particular, just using your idea as an example as the most recent.
(I'll still file this away for a potential use elsewhere, as it has good story potential).

I'm trying to avoid anything that relies on the warlock's personality to make sense.
This idea would work IFF the warlock had some evil/non-good personality bent that the patron was trying to correct, or the patron perceived the warlock to be that way. I'm specifically avoiding anything that requires assumptions about the character's personality as that is up to the player on what that is going to be. He may be downright rotten to the core, or could be a pure saintly figure beyond reproach, or any mix in between.

Like in my most recent example of the direction I've started heading, the patron's motivation for taking the warlock's sight is a patron-centric one. The patron WANTS the sight for their own reasons, it's what they are getting out of the pact. If this character turned down the pact, then the patron would move onto the next person they could find. There's no lesson intended for the player, no unintended damage, no sacrifice or mutilation or act of devotion.
Warlock gets powers, patron gets sight, that's the exchange.

Cikomyr
2019-05-05, 08:07 PM
@Cikomyr; this is not meant to be a call out to you in particular, just using your idea as an example as the most recent.
(I'll still file this away for a potential use elsewhere, as it has good story potential).

I'm trying to avoid anything that relies on the warlock's personality to make sense.
This idea would work IFF the warlock had some evil/non-good personality bent that the patron was trying to correct, or the patron perceived the warlock to be that way. I'm specifically avoiding anything that requires assumptions about the character's personality as that is up to the player on what that is going to be. He may be downright rotten to the core, or could be a pure saintly figure beyond reproach, or any mix in between.

Like in my most recent example of the direction I've started heading, the patron's motivation for taking the warlock's sight is a patron-centric one. The patron WANTS the sight for their own reasons, it's what they are getting out of the pact. If this character turned down the pact, then the patron would move onto the next person they could find. There's no lesson intended for the player, no unintended damage, no sacrifice or mutilation or act of devotion.
Warlock gets powers, patron gets sight, that's the exchange.

Sure, that's certainly a valid way of doing it.

I have a cheesy one, but it could work:

"The Celestial wants to see the World from a mortal's eyes"

In a way, the sacrifice of his sight would not only grant the eyesight of the mortal, but the Warlock's actual perspective.

From there, maybe you can have this.. view of reality slowly corrupt the Celestial one way or another?

Zhorn
2019-05-05, 09:47 PM
From there, maybe you can have this.. view of reality slowly corrupt the Celestial one way or another?
I like this idea. Early interactions with the patron could be presented in a very black and white perspective, and over time those perspectives start to be a little more grey. Then temptation over duty starts to creep in a little.
Could open up a reason for a high level end-game encounter without it just being "here's a CR25 monster in a treasure room", but instead "My patron's being a doo-doo head and we need to knock some sense back into him before he tries to merge with the atropal".
:smallbiggrin:

Phhase
2019-05-05, 10:10 PM
Easy! The patron is an archon or other powerful entity of justice.

Justice is blind!

Vogie
2019-05-07, 10:13 AM
They take his eyes, but give the player Eldritch Sight invocation... and a magical quarterstaff as a cane.

They see everything similar to Daredevil, but based on magic auras instead of sound.

Zhorn
2019-05-07, 10:56 AM
They take his eyes, but give the player Eldritch Sight invocation... and a magical quarterstaff as a cane.

They see everything similar to Daredevil, but based on magic auras instead of sound.

Invocations are the player's choice, not mine.
Again, this thread is in regards to the patron's motivation, not the character build. The player already has an idea of what they want to do, I'm just wanting to flesh out the story aspect for any interactions they'll have with the patron.

Marcelinari
2019-05-07, 01:06 PM
Perhaps the patron is limited in how they can effect the Material Plane. They are weakened, bound, and blinded - they cannot perceive the world as they are now. So just like your warlock player will use their familiar to perceive the world around them, the Patron uses the warlock to perceive the material plane. They are the patron’s eyes and ears on the material plane (literally, in the eyes department), agents by which the patron can gather intelligence and effect change on the mortal realms.

A celestial patron would probably seek to disrupt the plans of its enemies, find ways to restore its power, and champion the causes of good in the mortal realms. It may have a variety of warlocks serving as spies and agents, but ultimately its knowledge of events is limited to what its warlocks witness.

Vogie
2019-05-07, 03:04 PM
Invocations are the player's choice, not mine.
Again, this thread is in regards to the patron's motivation, not the character build. The player already has an idea of what they want to do, I'm just wanting to flesh out the story aspect for any interactions they'll have with the patron.

Unless you give them an always-on detect magic, not as an at-will invocation, in the same vein as you randomly grabbing eyes.

For example, if their pact was based on Odin, who gave up an eye for a drink from the well of Wisdom. It could also be an accident, such as the aforementioned Daredevil. The entire Blind Seer (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlindSeer)and Blind Weaponmaster (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlindWeaponmaster) Tropes would apply.

Zhorn
2019-05-07, 10:18 PM
@Marcelinari,
As of this point, I've sent the player an outline of how their patron is interacting with them, and what you have is fairly close to the setup we're going ahead with. Not bound, just crippled and they are using the sight as their own. Single warlock instead o multiple because I feel if they were capable of utilising multiple vision hosts at a time, then they'd be powerful enough to pursue other methods (such as empowering a cleric or paladin style host of soldiers). Warlocks with their whole 'unnatural means of power' aesthetic gives this whole out of desperation feel for the celestial to be resorting to.

@Vogie
I get where your coming from, and I'm not trying to have a dig at you. The angle your approaching it from is more to do with "What can the player do". The player already has a direction picked for how they want their character to progress, and it was them who chose to have blindness as the condition of the pact because the blind character concept is what they wanted to play. At higher levels or as the result of particularly difficult quests I may give rewards such as magic items and boons that align with abilities enabling blind seer/weaponmaster tropes, but that's latter in the game. Right now I'm only focused on patron-centric story element to giving meaning to the character choices the player has locked in, not changing what they were picking out and building around on the character side.