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Chronos
2007-10-05, 09:30 PM
It's accepted wisdom around here that the full caster classes (especially wizards, but also clerics, druids, and sorcerers) dominate the higher levels, because they have a spell for everything. But what do they do about an opponent with high stealth skills? The classes with Hide and Move Silently tend to prioritize dexterity, while wizards, sorcerers, and clerics don't get Listen or Spot as class skills. Plus, wizards and sorcerers tend to put a low priority on Wisdom, and items which boost stealth skills are a lot easier to come by than those which boost Listen and Spot. So opposed skill checks are out. True Seeing only works versus magical effects, and specifically states that it's no help versus the hide skill. There are a few Detection spells which could do the trick, except that they all have durations limited by concentration. Foresight will negate some of the advantages of someone sneaking up on you, but it's high enough level that a spellcaster won't have it for most of his career, and even when he does, the duration's short enough that he can't have it up all day. What's to stop a rogue, or a ranger, or even a monk, from just walking right up to the wizard and doing something nasty before the wizard even knows he's there?

Karsh
2007-10-05, 09:33 PM
Contingent Celerity on you being attacked while surprised.

Hello, Time Stop.

ocato
2007-10-05, 09:34 PM
Foresight. He pops out, but you already knew he was coming and you were waiting with a forcecage, disintigrate, and/or endless chasm of his comeuppance.

Thanatos 51-50
2007-10-05, 09:36 PM
Cry, becuase Stealth is superior! [/fanboyisim]

Nermy
2007-10-05, 09:52 PM
Embrace the Wild gives blindsense to druids and Dragonsight gives blindsense to Socerors/Wizards. (Both in Spell Compendium)

Thinker
2007-10-05, 09:57 PM
Detect Magic (permanencied): If mr. stealthy guy is wearing magical gear he'll show up on that at 60 feet.
Arcane Sight (permanencied): Same as Detect Magic, except better.
Prying Eyes: Could be useful, depending on the given commands.
Moment of Prescience: Even if you are caught unawares you now have extra AC or the means to automatically win initiative.
Foresight: Its obvious.

This is just a list from a quick glance at the SRD. With looking at supplements I'm sure its even easier (contingent dimension door, maybe?).

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-10-05, 10:17 PM
Detect magic can be assumed not to function against an opponent you are unaware of; if he's hiding without using Hide in Plain Sight, he's behind something, and you likely can't detect him.
If using Hide in Plain Sight, you still have to be checking his location in order to notice the stealth-user.

Arcane Sight functions on targets 'within your sight'. This does not include hiding targets.

If we assume Detect Magic does function against targets you cannot perceive, it obviates all magic used to conceal, including invisibility, spells granting concealment, etc.; as it is a cantrip, and there are higher-level spells specifically targeted at, for instance, invisibility, we may logically assume it does not.

Dhavaer
2007-10-05, 10:32 PM
If we assume Detect Magic does function against targets you cannot perceive, it obviates all magic used to conceal, including invisibility, spells granting concealment, etc.; as it is a cantrip, and there are higher-level spells specifically targeted at, for instance, invisibility, we may logically assume it does not.

It does. The reason why See Invisibility is still useful is because Detect Magic only detects: at most, it can pinpoint the location of something invisible if the caster spends three rounds concentrating and the invisible thing doesn't move.

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-10-05, 10:35 PM
It does. The reason why See Invisibility is still useful is because Detect Magic only detects: at most, it can pinpoint the location of something invisible if the caster spends three rounds concentrating and the invisible thing doesn't move.

I'd be interested to know if it functions to precisely pinpoint, or merely detect square?

As if nonmagical stealth didn't have issues enough. :smallannoyed:

Rachel Lorelei
2007-10-05, 10:37 PM
Check out the Dragonsight spell in the Spell Compendium: it's Hours/Level, and it gives Blindsense out to 5 feet per caster level. Very nice!

HidaTsuzua
2007-10-05, 10:39 PM
His CoDzilla cohort.

Goff
2007-10-05, 10:41 PM
I always find it interesting that it's so often assumed that a spellcaster is expecting any given opponent, be that a stealthy rogue or a balor dropping in for a cuppa tea. I realise that the ol wizzy can kill anything he knows or expects is coming, but surely there no games where it works that way...

Dhavaer
2007-10-05, 10:44 PM
I'd be interested to know if it functions to precisely pinpoint, or merely detect square?

As if nonmagical stealth didn't have issues enough. :smallannoyed:

It detects the square.

Terraneaux
2007-10-05, 10:46 PM
The Darkstalker feat from Lords of Madness gives stealthy characters a way around blindsight/sense, tremorsense, etc. Plus HIPS allows you to 'snipe' with melee attacks (though a full attack to a wizard, barring contingencies and stuff, *should* down them if the melee character is halfway competent)

Your best bet is to carpet the area you think they're in with aoe fortitude-save effects, can't think of any off the top of my head but there are some.

Dhavaer
2007-10-05, 10:48 PM
Your best bet is to carpet the area you think they're in with aoe fortitude-save effects, can't think of any off the top of my head but there are some.

Stinking cloud.

kemmotar
2007-10-05, 10:52 PM
Except if you they have contingency...they don't even need to see you attacking them...just contingency celerity or something that will either stop him or make the wizard invulnerable...even a dimension door will do the trick...teleport out of his reach and that's that...do whatever you wanna do to destroy the impudent stealther that dared attack you...

Thinker
2007-10-05, 11:03 PM
I always find it interesting that it's so often assumed that a spellcaster is expecting any given opponent, be that a stealthy rogue or a balor dropping in for a cuppa tea. I realise that the ol wizzy can kill anything he knows or expects is coming, but surely there no games where it works that way...

The wizard has enough spell slots that he can be prepared for most things. Also, some things are just generally useful to always have up, i.e Moment of Prescience and Arcane Sight. The wizard can always have what he needs.

Dausuul
2007-10-05, 11:17 PM
The wizard has enough spell slots that he can be prepared for most things. Also, some things are just generally useful to always have up, i.e Moment of Prescience and Arcane Sight. The wizard can always have what he needs.

It really depends on what level the wizard is. Very high-level wizards have the resources to be ready for just about anything. Lower-level ones are more vulnerable.

Rockphed
2007-10-05, 11:25 PM
Except if you they have contingency...they don't even need to see you attacking them...just contingency celerity or something that will either stop him or make the wizard invulnerable...even a dimension door will do the trick...teleport out of his reach and that's that...do whatever you wanna do to destroy the impudent stealther that dared attack you...

And you find him how?

kemmotar
2007-10-05, 11:32 PM
Assuming you have see invisibility you get two options:
a)he is invsible, therefore you see him
b)he is hidden, you probably won't make the shot.

If he catches you at unawares, contingency kicks in(if correctly worded, for example, whenever i would be attacked without my knowledge of the event, or something more thought out and not made up by me right now...:smalltongue:

Therefore, contingency kicks in and you get teleported 30 feet away, you round comes and:
A)the rogue was invisible, however you see him(arcane sight, see invisibility, true seeing, if you haven't got at least one permanencied you're not a caster worth mentioning...
B)the rogue was hidden and is now no longer hidden and is standing right there...in plain view for you to cast to death...

Solo
2007-10-06, 12:10 AM
And you find him how?

Scrying, mayhaps.

Terraneaux
2007-10-06, 12:13 AM
Yeah, the only way to beat contingency is to find some way to set it off before the fight or use an AMF. Actually, the AMF idea is great; although best deployed from an 18+ CL contingency scroll. Trigger "when I am within 5 ft. of x" so that you are immediately next to the target, and puree to taste.

But contingency is basically a life-saver vs rogues or dispels, two things which high level casters should fear.

Bauglir
2007-10-06, 12:20 AM
Most characters who are using stealth in combat will have dipped Shadowdancer or picked up a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis, giving them Hide in Plain Sight, and it's not too hard to have a hide check in excess of 60 at level 20, meaning that even with the -20 to hide, they still have no chance of seeing you. Naturally, of course, you've also got Darkstalker so their blindsight, etc, doesn't work, and, finally, you'll have that nice Shirt of Wraithstalking that lets you Hide from Undead at will without giving intelligent undead a save, so they can't just summon Wraiths with Lifesense to nab you. Oh, and there's a middling chance that you'll have Superior Invisibility scrolls in case you want to make the occasional full-attack, though this is risky since it is trumped by True Seeing. Still, how many bottles of ointment are they going to have? Let's say 20, so they get 400 minutes of True Seeing, only you're just Full Attacking very rarely, renewing the Invisibility with your 5 scrolls as needed and trying to scare them into wasting their True Seeing (unlikely to work, but this isn't necessary and only speeds things up), and if they then seem to be able to see you, getting the heck out of there before they get their next turn. They win by retreating with a Greater Teleport to their fortress, of course, unless you've got Psionics and you've got Use Psionic Device and a Power Stone of Trace Teleportation, in which case you follow them by the same means and continue the slaughtery fun.

Unless they KNOW a stealth character is coming, in which case the stealthy guy is still boned, because it's a wizard.

Orzel
2007-10-06, 01:35 AM
The full caster's answers to stealth is hope.

Hope that your Contingency is up when they attack
Hope that Foresight is up when they attack
Hope that they are using invisibility instead of normal stealth
Hope that they can't shoot Dim. Anchor rays from behind a bush.
Hope that they don't have followers or empathy animals triggering your contingency

A 17th+ ranger with an army of annoying animals and a nice set of weapon can be painful.

Chronos
2007-10-06, 03:21 AM
OK, so, to keep this simple, I've got a level 20 rogue, no prestige classes. I've got a 22 Dex (17 to start, +5 levels, no tomes) and a 14 Int. Hide, Move Silently, Search, Disable Device, and Sleight of Hand are all maxed, and have Skill Mastery applied to them, and I have the Stealthy feat. I've spent my wealth by level on masterwork slippers, a black cloak, a set of masterwork thief's tools, and over 700,000 GP worth of really expensive lapdances. When I take 10 on Hide and Move Silently, I get a 41, high enough that even caster level 20 Greater Prying Eyes have no chance to see me. Arcane Sight and its relatives will completely ignore me, since there's no magic about me at all. I sneak up to the wizard, examine his robes and person for magical traps (with guaranteed success to find them if they're there: My Search check is 35, and the highest DC for a spell trap is 34), and pick his pockets, taking all of his components (including his contingency focus) and his spellbook. Then, I leave the way I came, leaving the wizard in perfect health. What happens?

illathid
2007-10-06, 03:48 AM
Well, if it were my wizard, here's what I would do.

As soon as I noticed that my contingency focus was gone I would use Greater Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportGreater.htm), to arrive in one of the Private Sanctums (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesPrivateSanctum.htm) I had set up before hand miles under the surface of the earth (Without anyway to get in to the sanctum except through teleportation). Once in my personal redoubt, I would cast Greater Scrying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scryingGreater.htm) (using the scrying mirror I had set up in the sanctum before hand) to spend quite some time observing the thief of my contingency focus.

Once I felt I had a firm grasp of his routines, habits, etc. I would proceed to teleport to his location, and exterminate him with extreme prejudice (and most likely make a thorough example of said thief). Did I mention that my sanctum would have several back up copies of my spell book for good measure?

Curmudgeon
2007-10-06, 05:08 AM
A sneaky character who has the element of surprise will win. A Contingency can be used up by making a ranged shot from ridiculously far away: a composite shortbow will work up to 700' normally, and up to 1050' with the Far Shot feat. That's -70 or -105 to the target's Spot check, so the -20 penalty to Hide while they stand in the shrubbery and fire at will isn't going to matter at all. The caster won't be able to use anything but long range spells, and (because of failing the Spot check miserably) won't even be able to target the acre nearest the attacker. The sneaky attacker fires until the caster's Contingency gets used up. If the attacker makes a perfect shot and the caster disappears, they used up that Contingency: they triggered a Dimension Door to move somewhere nearby, or maybe a Celerity and then cast Time Stop and really wasted some spellpower -- to no avail. The sneaky attacker stays hidden, calmly pulls out their nifty spyglass, and manages to Spot the caster again after a while.

The sneaky but cautious attacker can hit in the morning, wait a few hours for any Foresight spell to be wasted, then repeat their archery practice until the caster starts taking damage instead of having a spell save them. Now they could use any number of techniques, such as the non-magical assault put forth by Chronos, to shred the caster without even being targeted. A high speed, Spring Attack, and great Hide skill means the sneaky attacker can hit and vanish -- over and over. The Move Between Cover use of Hide will let them hit the caster for sneak attack damage even when they're only close to an area offering cover/concealment. Or they'll have Hide in Plain Sight and not need even that. That's what a sneaky character could do -- except their target is likely to flee, or whip up some personal immunity and make their location ground zero for something really nasty. :smallmad:

However, the smart and sneaky attacker wouldn't do that. Instead, the early passes can do useful sneaky things like removing the caster's spell components, holy symbol, or expensive magical gear. With Hide in Plain Sight the attacker can jog right up (the -5 full speed penalty to Move Silently isn't worth worrying about when Listen is a cross-class skill for the target) and use Sleight of Hand to strip the caster bare. Amulet? Gone. Rings? Gone, too. Spell components? All gone, leaving the pouch empty; or maybe the whole pouch is missing. Wands are really light, and they can disappear without the caster noticing. Robe of the Archmagi? Trashed, because it's not armor and can be sundered easily; that's 75,000 gp ruined on one swing. By the time the caster actually is on the receiving end of an attack (sundering robes or other gear that's tough to steal) they might be reduced to their shoes and memorized spells that don't require any material components or foci. And the caster has never even seen the sneaky attacker.

The caster can use a spell to disappear then, of course, and that's probably the right course to take; it's handy that Teleport is verbal only. In the mean time all their gear is ruined or about to make the sneaky attacker quite happy, even at only 50% resale value. It's a shame that spellbook is difficult to sell, but hey -- those pages make good tinder to start a fire.

Best case for the caster? They flee to a different part of the planet as soon as their Contingency gets triggered and they can't find the attacker. Worst case? They try to fight back and it's a race between dying from hit point loss, or failing their massive damage saves on repeated sneak attacks of 50+ points. (10d6 sneak attack + Craven is enough for massive damage on each swing even without weapon damage, weapon enhancements, or STR bonus.)

Zeful
2007-10-06, 05:39 AM
The real problem isn't so much CoDzilla's strength. because strength is useless without effective tactics, a core monk with good tactics could tear a SC wizard to pieces if done intelligently.

And all it takes is a deck of illusions and a bow.

After all if wizards are paranoid enough to need a contigent teleport/dimension door, they should be wound pretty tightly and dragons popping out of nowhere and them taking damage would trigger their contingency and they pop away a few feet and obliterate the square of the opponent, only to realize it's an illusion (and it didn't do anything it appeared and the monk shot it so no save till spells go off) and detect magic isn't reliable because any decent opponent has buffs up and he dosen't have time to sit back and leave himself vulnerable to a dangerous oppenent to analyze the aruas. The monk then runs/charges and quivering palms the wizard from the shadows, game over.

So in the end it's not Wizards > Everything it's Tactics > Everything

martyboy74
2007-10-06, 06:04 AM
How would the wizard be taking damage? The dragon's an illusion.

Zeful
2007-10-06, 07:13 AM
Arm the Monk with a bow. Heck it doesn't even need to be a magic bow. The dragon gives the wizard a more pressing target while the monk sneaks into position and nails the wizard with Quivering palm. By the time the wizard get his save a round later the monk is in charging range. If I include other magic items for the monk, things get a lot easier. Other Sorcebooks make it even easier, Zen Archery for example, then all I really need a halfway's decent dex and then just pump Wis for the highest possible DC for Quivering palm. Psionics add sad rediculousness to this style of play. But I decided to limit myself to core and one magic item for this exercise.

illathid
2007-10-06, 07:52 AM
What if the wizard, I don't know, has cast True Seeing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueSeeing.htm) or Arcane Sight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/arcaneSight.htm)?

Neither of those are unreasonable spells to have cast on you at all times.

Thanatos 51-50
2007-10-06, 08:01 AM
I always find it interesting that it's so often assumed that a spellcaster is expecting any given opponent, be that a stealthy rogue or a balor dropping in for a cuppa tea. I realise that the ol wizzy can kill anything he knows or expects is coming, but surely there no games where it works that way...

Quoted for bloody truth! If the wizard is assaulting a certain opponent, I can see it, however, if just traveling or on the defensive against an unknown quantity, the wizard can't do much of anything special (this is why I like spontaneous casting).

Maybe a valid argument here for a blaster-type, eh?

Jack_Simth
2007-10-06, 08:25 AM
What if the wizard, I don't know, has cast True Seeing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueSeeing.htm) or Arcane Sight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/arcaneSight.htm)?

Neither of those are unreasonable spells to have cast on you at all times.

True Seeing specifies that it doesn't work against normal hiding, just magical invisibility.

Arcane Sight is a possibility, but it's only finding magic aura's, not the sneaky rogue. There is a first level spell that can deal with that for a day/level. A Rogue with UMD and the appropriate Wand, that knows he's going up against a spellcaster, isn't going to have issues getting past it.

Oh, and while Arcane Sight can be Permanencied, True Seeing can't. At 1 min/level, how many spell slots are you putting to this thing that you're keeping it up all day?

Zeful
2007-10-06, 08:38 AM
What if the wizard, I don't know, has cast True Seeing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueSeeing.htm) or Arcane Sight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/arcaneSight.htm)?

Neither of those are unreasonable spells to have cast on you at all times.

No, their not. But the required resoources (permanancy) are easily outstriped by crafting and spellbook requirements. And if you extended it you would have to recast it at least once a day. And a sneaky character worth her salt attacks when she has the advantage, not when your oppoenent does. It only makes sense to attack when an enemy has exhausted his resources.

Draz74
2007-10-06, 10:32 AM
I'd just like to point out that -- though it won't work as well for the Wizard, Cleric, or Sorcerer -- the Druid's best defense against mundane stealth skills is ... mundane Spot and Listen skills. Max them out and (obviously) have a high Wisdom, and you've got a decent chance of seeing the Rogue coming. (Or a small chance, if he's decked out in magic items and feats that add to his Stealth abilities.) Animal Companion can help too.

PaladinBoy
2007-10-06, 10:40 AM
Well, if it were my wizard, here's what I would do.

As soon as I noticed that my contingency focus was gone I would use Greater Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportGreater.htm), to arrive in one of the Private Sanctums (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesPrivateSanctum.htm) I had set up before hand miles under the surface of the earth (Without anyway to get in to the sanctum except through teleportation). Once in my personal redoubt, I would cast Greater Scrying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesPrivateSanctum.htm) (using the scrying mirror I had set up in the sanctum before hand) to spend quite some time observing the thief of my contingency focus.

Once I felt I had a firm grasp of his routines, habits, etc. I would proceed to teleport to his location, and exterminate him with extreme prejudice (and most likely make a thorough example of said thief). Did I mention that my sanctum would have several back up copies of my spell book for good measure?

Unless your wizard walks around with a hand in his pocket, I'm guessing that he won't notice immediately. Part of the point of pickpocketing skills is that the target doesn't realize that his stuff's been taken. Of course, you would notice eventually, but if I were controlling the stealther, he'd follow up immediately, not wait for you to notice that something was wrong.

Arbitrarity
2007-10-06, 11:05 AM
If I didn't have 3 backups of everything in my portable hole. And I weren't flying. And my portable hole wasn't sequestered. And I didn't have foresight all day.
[Questionable legality]
And my Greater Prying eyes weren't all aiding another for a total check result of roughly 85.
[/questionable legality]

And my familiar didn't have a contingency celerity (share spells!) in case of AMF. And if it were possible at all to find me, seeing as I never need to walk or ride anywhere, except if it's over a short distance, and you can't use any sort of divination to find me. And if I hadn't used Contact Other Plane this morning.

Excessive paranoia? Never.

*warning* These methods may be of questionable legality, but most of them are reasonable considering the context of "Batman". Note the section of "extremely hard to find", especially.

Jacob Orlove
2007-10-06, 03:30 PM
I'd just like to point out that -- though it won't work as well for the Wizard, Cleric, or Sorcerer -- the Druid's best defense against mundane stealth skills is ... mundane Spot and Listen skills. Max them out and (obviously) have a high Wisdom, and you've got a decent chance of seeing the Rogue coming. (Or a small chance, if he's decked out in magic items and feats that add to his Stealth abilities.) Animal Companion can help too.
Beguilers can do the same, although they don't get the advantage of Wis-based casting to boost those skills. They certainly will have enough skill points to invest in Spot and Listen, though, and they can match the rogue for stealth (you can't sneak up on someone if you can't find them either).

Chronos
2007-10-06, 03:39 PM
If I didn't have 3 backups of everything in my portable hole.And where do you keep your portable hole, that the rogue didn't just steal it, too?

Foresight wouldn't help, since that just warns you of harm. The sneak didn't harm you; he just deprived you of some possessions.

And for the scrying point, how do you target it? You don't have anything that belonged to the thief. You've never met him. And "the guy who just robbed me blind" isn't a valid target for a spell. You can certainly recover somewhat, by retreating to a fallback location where you have spare books etc., but you've still lost whatever wealth you were carrying (including all those gems and such for spells that a good wizard is supposed to have available at a moment's notice), with no means of reprisal.


I will admit that this probably won't work well against a druid, with high wisdom and access to Spot and Listen (and possibly racial bonuses and Scent from his preferred Wildshape form). I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that the druid is actually the most powerful base class, since he doesn't really seem to have any weakness.

Tor the Fallen
2007-10-06, 03:42 PM
There are some cheap items that give you an extradimensional pocket in your stomach. That's where I'd keep stuff I didn't want the thief taking from.

NullAshton
2007-10-06, 05:43 PM
Spell components you can keep backups of, but how exactly are you going to keep THREE BACKUPS of your spellbook, with lots of expensive inks used in it? Also about the arcane sight/detect magic detecting rogue with magical items... arcane sight doesn't work through walls, I believe. And you could simply walk towards the caster with a lead sheet between you and the wizard... sort of silly, but lead blocks detect magic.

namo
2007-10-06, 07:29 PM
Since people are using Sleight of Hand and sundering items, I feel the wizard is also entitled to as much cheese as he wants :

- Dragonsight for Blindsense requires the rogue to get the Darkstalker feat, as has been pointed out. Luckily it also works against Tremorsense (there are spells (or shapes) that grant it)

- Telepathy (100', from a dip in Mindbender) + Mindsight (LoM) would require him to have Mind Blank, otherwise he gets detected within the range of the telepathy.

- The hardest part, in my mind, is for the rogue to find the wizard, who is unlikely to look the same from one day to the other (Disguise Self/Veil/Shapechange), and has good defenses against scrying.

- If the wizard does get robbed, Discern Location will tell him about the location of his items. The rogue had better had a good escape route and a stronghold ready. Or a trap.

It's not impossible, but it's hard. that makes it fun to attempt though. In general, the rogue will need support (that's what the party's for !) - for instance a cleric readying to cast Forbiddance just before he approaches the wizard and activates his antimagic field.

Kaelik
2007-10-06, 07:38 PM
First of all, the only decent sneak is someone who put everything they had into sneaking.

Sneaking against spellcaster requirements:

1)Hide in Plain Sight
2)Darkstalker
3)Through the Roof Hide
4)Something to prevent Arcanesight from noticing them (Wand of Nystul's Magic Aura at high caster level.)

That's to beat a regular Batman Wizard who just has the regular everyday buffs up.

Next you need to work on the contingency. This is the biggest problem, because a real Batman words his contingency very carefully. First of all, you don't word it so anything can set it off. You word it very specifically so that only certain types of Credible threats set it off. You have Foresight-Celerity for a reason, and that is to deal with something that might possibly kill you. Contingency is only for things that are a real problem.

As for the idea of sniping from 700ft away. That's just stupid. Even ignoring the fact that the Wizard is going to be watching missed arrows landing all around him, and he's going to do something about it, Think about this. Where are you going to do this? In a building? No. In the middle of a town? No. That leaves, oh, nowhere because Wizards teleport everywhere. You won't find them wandering the countryside.

If you make any attack against them (including sundering) then foresight allows them to use an immediate action when they can see you during your attack. Greater Celerity-Timestop-Forcecage Cloud Kill. Also note that they always have Anticipate Teleport up too, so you better be teleporting away with your scrolls of Teleport. (Congratulations you have resorted to being a Wizard to even survive this fight, you lose.)

Any attack=instadead. So that leaves sleight of hand. Well a well worded contingency can usually cover something like someone taking your things.

Besides that, I would never allow someone to touch someone else without losing their hide check. And you may be able to refresh that hide check afterward, but that doesn't matter because at that very instant (when someone appears out of nowhere) you just Celerity-Timestop-Forcecage them. Win again.

EDIT:Infinite Spellbooks for free through Secret Page spell.

Curmudgeon
2007-10-06, 09:15 PM
Besides that, I would never allow someone to touch someone else without losing their hide check. And you may be able to refresh that hide check afterward, but that doesn't matter because at that very instant (when someone appears out of nowhere) you just Celerity-Timestop-Forcecage them. Well, then you'd not be allowing the rules as written, and making up your own instead:
Hide (Dex; Armor Check Penalty)

Itís practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging. It doesn't say you Hide before attacking, or after attacking; it says while attacking. You cannot "lose your Hide check" (by which I assume you mean "appears out of nowhere") just by attacking; if you succeed vs. their Spot check while attacking, they haven't a clue you're there. They might have been hit by a Magic Missile rather than your dagger, because they're entirely clueless as to your location.

Following the rules, Kaelik, a sneak can steal the spellcaster blind -- and I do mean blind.

Bauglir
2007-10-06, 09:24 PM
If you make any attack against them (including sundering) then foresight allows them to use an immediate action when they can see you during your attack. Greater Celerity-Timestop-Forcecage Cloud Kill. Also note that they always have Anticipate Teleport up too, so you better be teleporting away with your scrolls of Teleport. (Congratulations you have resorted to being a Wizard to even survive this fight, you lose.)

Yeah, sure. But how's the wizard finding where you are to forcecage you? You're at the farthest possible radius while still having a target. The Wizard can follow in the general direction the arrow came from, but that still leaves roughly a building sized area for you to be hiding in. And of course you're in a city, as that gives the Wizard multiple floors to search through in an attempt to find you. Chances are, by the time they do, their Time stop is out. And that's when you Dimension Door across the square and start taking potshots whenever the Wizard exposes himself (once, at most, of course, but you've taken no damage while the Wizard has taken some). Probably what happens is that this has no conclusion till you run out of money, of course. So the Wizard wins by attrition. Which, naturally, is why you play an assassin and jack your Death Attack DC as high as you can. But I'm getting too specific. Still, my general idea of the way things work is that, between the wizard and the rogue, whoever knows the other is coming is the one that wins. If neither does, it's initiative in most cases, but that assumes the Wizard is silly and can possibly not go first.

And I agree with the Hide skill things people have said. They just rob the caster blind in any situation, as that's not an attack anyway. DM fiat lets you say they lose their hide check, but people are pickpocketed all the time without being any the wiser. And we're talking people who would be regarded as living legends, not just your average pickpocket.

illathid
2007-10-06, 09:35 PM
No, their not. But the required resoources (permanancy) are easily outstriped by crafting and spellbook requirements. And if you extended it you would have to recast it at least once a day. And a sneaky character worth her salt attacks when she has the advantage, not when your oppoenent does. It only makes sense to attack when an enemy has exhausted his resources.

I was responding to the specific instance of your deck of illusions dragon. thus your plan wouldn't work.


True Seeing specifies that it doesn't work against normal hiding, just magical invisibility.

Arcane Sight is a possibility, but it's only finding magic aura's, not the sneaky rogue. There is a first level spell that can deal with that for a day/level. A Rogue with UMD and the appropriate Wand, that knows he's going up against a spellcaster, isn't going to have issues getting past it.

Oh, and while Arcane Sight can be Permanencied, True Seeing can't. At 1 min/level, how many spell slots are you putting to this thing that you're keeping it up all day?

I realize that. I was responding to Zeful's tactic of using a deck of illusions as a decoy for the wizard. I was showing why that wouldn't work.

illathid
2007-10-06, 10:27 PM
And where do you keep your portable hole, that the rogue didn't just steal it, too?

Foresight wouldn't help, since that just warns you of harm. The sneak didn't harm you; he just deprived you of some possessions.

And for the scrying point, how do you target it? You don't have anything that belonged to the thief. You've never met him. And "the guy who just robbed me blind" isn't a valid target for a spell. You can certainly recover somewhat, by retreating to a fallback location where you have spare books etc., but you've still lost whatever wealth you were carrying (including all those gems and such for spells that a good wizard is supposed to have available at a moment's notice), with no means of reprisal.


I will admit that this probably won't work well against a druid, with high wisdom and access to Spot and Listen (and possibly racial bonuses and Scent from his preferred Wildshape form). I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that the druid is actually the most powerful base class, since he doesn't really seem to have any weakness.

"the guy who just robbed me blind" is a valid target for scrying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scrying.htm). See the part about having knowledge? There is a connection, namely he "just robbed me blind". So that would give him a +10 to his will save, but he is also carrying your intimate possessions, so that means he'll take a -4 (it doesn't say that the wizards has to be the one with the physical connection, only that there has to be one), for a net of +6 to the save. If was going to be really paranoid about it (and I'm a wizard, so face it, I would be that paranoid), I would use Contact other Plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contactOtherPlane.htm) to ask questions about this thief. That should give me second hand knowledge of the thief, which would give you only a +5 bonus for a net of +1 to the thief's will save. A 20th lvl rogue has a will save of 6+wis (Assuming elite array that means 13 at the highest), or +7 (he's got no magical gear like you said).

The wizards DC for the spell should be 28 (elite array gives the wizard 17 int after race, +5 for lvl ups, +5 from tome of clear thought (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#tomeofClearThought), +6 for the headband of intellect (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#headbandofIntellect) for a total int score of 33. That means the wizard has a +11 int modifier). So your thief could make the will save on a natural 20, but thats it. So I'm pretty sure the wizard would be able to accurately scry on the thief.

Skjaldbakka
2007-10-06, 10:59 PM
Ah, but you are forgetting that everything the wizard can do, the rogue can also do, via UMD and money. Sneak buys scrolls to negate wizard's attemps at reprisal, then robs wizard blind and sells his stuff to recoup expenses.

How does it feel for all of your class features to be purchasable?

Zeful
2007-10-06, 11:07 PM
Yes the deck of illusions doesn't work well, but was an example of how well tactics work against power. A wizard's strength is having, potentially, a tool for every possible encounter they could think of. If they come up against something they're not prepared for they lose big time. Rouges and sneaky-type characters should wait for a wizard to be not prepared for them. It's just good sense.

Thinker
2007-10-06, 11:14 PM
Nanobots (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=458721&origin=) stop your feeble attempts to hinder Mr. Wizard :smalltongue:

Zeful
2007-10-06, 11:38 PM
I don't think that nanobots can increase the hosts Fort save making things like high DC Quivering Palm/Death Attacks very effective tools against the Wizard.

And it's kind of interesting how most of the wizard's defences require things like Celerity, Marshal Auras and odd feats. While some good spells/abilities that reqire a fort save to kill/maim the wizard are core.

BardicDuelist
2007-10-06, 11:44 PM
Actually, a scroll means that nanobots can help Mr. Stealth too. You broke it, I bought it. UMD is what really tips the scales here. Or a Factotum, who can both cast and sneak, and UMD. Actually, the fact that Factotum a class that would probably have equal Int to the wizard fits the RP of out thinking him.

excrtd
2007-10-06, 11:52 PM
I would think that the nanobots following you around would be rather noticeable.

Bauglir
2007-10-07, 12:00 AM
+7? At level 20? You're kidding, right?

Cloak of Resistance +5, that's a must. So now we're up to +12. Of course, we'll want a Luckstone as well for a +1, and a Pale Green Ioun Stone as well, for another. +14. Who wouldn't want a Crystal Mask of Mindarmor? Now we have a +18, so the Rogue makes the save as often as not. If, for some reason, I really wanted to go higher, I could spend more money for a Runestaff of Power instead of the Luckstone, which would give me a +2 Luck bonus on saves instead (and the +2 AC isn't bad, either, but the main powers of the staff are useless and it's therefore a poor choice unless I'm really out of stuff to spend on).

Skjaldbakka
2007-10-07, 12:07 AM
Actually, the cheaper solution is to just be immune to scrying. IIRC, there is an item that does exactly that.

namo
2007-10-07, 12:34 AM
Ah, but you are forgetting that everything the wizard can do, the rogue can also do, via UMD and money. Sneak buys scrolls to negate wizard's attemps at reprisal, then robs wizard blind and sells his stuff to recoup expenses.

How does it feel for all of your class features to be purchasable?

UMD cannot reproduce immediate action casting.

Discern Location means the rogue doesn't get a save - he needs Mindblank, i.e. the Third Eye Conceal (120,000gp !).

A nice trick I just remembered is to cast Magic Mouth on your items, with "leaving my possession" (or similar) as trigger. Sleight of Hand doesn't help against that.

illathid
2007-10-07, 12:57 AM
+7? At level 20? You're kidding, right?

Cloak of Resistance +5, that's a must. So now we're up to +12. Of course, we'll want a Luckstone as well for a +1, and a Pale Green Ioun Stone as well, for another. +14. Who wouldn't want a Crystal Mask of Mindarmor? Now we have a +18, so the Rogue makes the save as often as not. If, for some reason, I really wanted to go higher, I could spend more money for a Runestaff of Power instead of the Luckstone, which would give me a +2 Luck bonus on saves instead (and the +2 AC isn't bad, either, but the main powers of the staff are useless and it's therefore a poor choice unless I'm really out of stuff to spend on).

But then your going to have a magic aura that would glow like the sun under arcane sight. So you wouldn't get to the point where you'd be able to steal any of my stuff. Thats why were talking about using a rogue without any magic items.

Edit:



A nice trick I just remembered is to cast Magic Mouth on your items, with "leaving my possession" (or similar) as trigger. Sleight of Hand doesn't help against that.

Thats a good one. I'll have to remember that.

Kaelik
2007-10-07, 03:55 AM
Itís practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

Well lets see, nope, no matter how stealthy I can still see a dagger aimed at my eye, and I can still feel it in my kidney. You'll note it says that hiding is difficult, but at the same level for attacking as for running. Perhaps that means that you are hiding from all the people surrounding the person you are stabbing. In no way does that statement imply that one can hide from someone they are currently attacking.



Yeah, sure. But how's the wizard finding where you are to forcecage you? You're at the farthest possible radius while still having a target. The Wizard can follow in the general direction the arrow came from, but that still leaves roughly a building sized area for you to be hiding in. And of course you're in a city, as that gives the Wizard multiple floors to search through in an attempt to find you. Chances are, by the time they do, their Time stop is out. And that's when you Dimension Door across the square and start taking potshots whenever the Wizard exposes himself (once, at most, of course, but you've taken no damage while the Wizard has taken some). Probably what happens is that this has no conclusion till you run out of money, of course. So the Wizard wins by attrition. Which, naturally, is why you play an assassin and jack your Death Attack DC as high as you can. But I'm getting too specific.

I don't think you are quite understanding how this works. While we are following the letter of the rules, there is nothing at all about being able to lean out windows, so that leaves either in the middle of a crowded street shooting at another man in the middle of a crowded street from 700ft away, or on a rooftop. On a rooftop you are pretty visible, and in the street, even though there are no rules for it, you are going to kill 7 or 8 commoners for every hit on the wizard. Cities wind anyway so you aren't going to be 700ft away, the best you could hope for was maybe 500.

By the way, Reverse Arrows has a duration of hrs per level. Have fun with that. I hope you have a high Str or roll well.


Still, my general idea of the way things work is that, between the wizard and the rogue, whoever knows the other is coming is the one that wins. If neither does, it's initiative in most cases, but that assumes the Wizard is silly and can possibly not go first.

The biggest problem is that there is no possible way for a "rogue" to know the Wizard is coming. Give a reason for a lvl 20 Wizard to ever be outside. You can't, there isn't one. A level 20 Wizard can teleport into whatever building he wants to go to. Game over for Rogue who will never even know the guy exists.


And I agree with the Hide skill things people have said. They just rob the caster blind in any situation, as that's not an attack anyway. DM fiat lets you say they lose their hide check, but people are pickpocketed all the time without being any the wiser. And we're talking people who would be regarded as living legends, not just your average pickpocket.

People are pickpocketed on the streets with other people around. I'm pretty sure that's a bit different from someone pulling a ring of your finger.

There is a reason the almost all pickpocketing cons involve making an excuse to touch someone and it is because it is physically impossible to touch someone and have them not notice.

Skjaldbakka
2007-10-07, 04:24 AM
That was in English, and I know what all the words mean, but very little of it makes any sense.

"There are no rules for firing a bow from a window, therefore I can't" ?
"I kill 7-8 commoners for every hit on the wizard" ?
"Wizards have an unlimited ability to teleport everywhere they go" ?

And this statement is just false:

It is physically impossible to touch someone and have them not notice.

That isn't even necessarily true with skin-to-skin contact, and is much less true when we are talking about belt pouches and haversacks. And this is real-world pickpocketing. Meaning low-level sleight of hand. Someone with 23 ranks in sleight of hand goes well beyond what we would consider 'normal pickpocketing routines'. Seriously, the world's best pickpocket might be level 5 or 6. And they can take your watch from your wrist without your being the wiser.

tannish2
2007-10-07, 04:26 AM
well... any stealth character with half a brain has the darkstalker feat, its like power attack for stealth people. which makes blindsense blindsight and tremorsense a moot point, an item with nondetection is always fun. makes detect/locate spells not good, and my favorite PrC, unseen seer, with decent skill monkeyness and full casting gets permenant nondetection from 5 levels of it. so basically stealth wins, like i always say, hit points are for people who get hit. theres also shadowdancer for hide in plain sight just to cheese out. or assassin. rog 2/wiz3/unseen seer 5/assassin 10 would be quite hard to find. now thats just off the top of my head probably unoptimized but im sure someone else could do a better job of it. actually thats pretty good. level 8 wizard casting and level 10 assassin casting with full sneakyness. and more than half use magic device. mind blank item might be pretty expensive but it can be done. and nondetection also effects your items carried.

Chronos
2007-10-07, 12:48 PM
Since people are using Sleight of Hand and sundering items, I feel the wizard is also entitled to as much cheese as he wants :If allowing a rogue to use Sleight of Hand is cheese, then allowing a wizard to cast spells is cheese. Sleight of Hand (or its older name, Pick Pockets) is the reason the class exists. If a 14-point-buy single-class rogue with none of his wealth by level and using only a fraction of his abilities is so cheesy that you have to resort to five different splatbooks to counter it as a wizard, then you're pretty much conceding the argument.

As for Discern Location on your stolen items, by the time you cast it, your spellbook is in the new aquisitions section of the library at Warthog's Academy, Cliffport; your gems are at the Del la Sol Jewelers, on Processional Street, in the upclass part of town; your gold dust and other precious metals are in the raw materials vault of the Royal Mint waiting to be melted down into new coins, your True Sight ointment is in the storerooms of the Temple of Freya, and your bat guano, feathers, and other assorted cheap components are scattered at the bottom of the river. Where's the rogue?

Magic Mouth is a good one, though... I'll have to think about that some more.

Bauglir
2007-10-07, 12:52 PM
But then your going to have a magic aura that would glow like the sun under arcane sight. So you wouldn't get to the point where you'd be able to steal any of my stuff. Thats why were talking about using a rogue without any magic items.
This is what a 2000 gp item of Nystul's Magic Aura at will is for.


While we are following the letter of the rules, there is nothing at all about being able to lean out windows, so that leaves either in the middle of a crowded street shooting at another man in the middle of a crowded street from 700ft away, or on a rooftop.
Methinks that's because there's no need for something in the rules about it. Why on earth is it necessary? It's an ideal way to snipe even without Hide in Plain Sight, and there is no reason it should be disallowed. The window might provide the Rogue partial cover (this being exactly the sort of situation it's designed for) when he's sniping, but shouldn't change anything else. Classic example; the rules don't say you can't take actions while you're dead. They don't cover every possible situation, and they shouldn't.


By the way, Reverse Arrows has a duration of hrs per level. Have fun with that. I hope you have a high Str or roll well.
Actually, it's 10 mins/level. And grants dr/magic. No need for Str or a high roll.

Curmudgeon
2007-10-07, 02:57 PM
Well lets see, nope, no matter how stealthy I can still see a dagger aimed at my eye, But D&D doesn't have facing, or called shots; you can't discern particular targets.

and I can still feel it in my kidney.No, you feel damage, in no particular location (not in your kidney, again because of no called shots). This could be from a dagger, or the result of a distant Magic Missile; you can't tell if you didn't Spot the attack.
You'll note it says that hiding is difficult, but at the same level for attacking as for running. Perhaps that means that you are hiding from all the people surrounding the person you are stabbing. In no way does that statement imply that one can hide from someone they are currently attacking. Yes, it means exactly that. Hide doesn't have any way to apply just to particular targets; it applies to everyone in line of sight versus their Spot skill. The skill has rules that specify when you can and can't Hide. If you follow those rules, and beat opposed Spot checks, you're visually undetectable.

Kaelik, you've got a disconnect between your idea of a fantasy world, and the actual rules D&D uses to model a fantasy world. The rules don't change to fit your idea (unless you're DMing, and then only for those at your table). It would be helpful to re-read the Player's Handbook regarding those matters where you've been using house rules instead of following the RAW, because the default assumption on these fora is that we're following the written rules.

Dausuul
2007-10-07, 04:53 PM
As others have said, the real question is: How does the rogue find the wizard in the first place?

A high-level wizard who fears assassins will have an isolated and well-defended home, with no means of ingress for anyone unable to teleport and heavily warded against divinations that might reveal where it is or what it looks like. Or she may just sleep in a Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion, moving to a new location and re-casting each night. Most of the time she'll rely on long-distance communication and summoned minions to deal with the outside world. In the unusual event that the wizard needs to go somewhere in person, she'll greater teleport there, attend to her business, and teleport back.

The rogue would have to find a way to bait the wizard into coming to him, and pray the wizard isn't suspicious enough to come expecting trouble, and that he knows the trigger for the wizard's contingency, and that the wizard isn't allowed the infamous foresight/celerity combo. If the wizard is paranoid enough, she will never go anywhere outside of her home defenses without expecting trouble.

Of course, with the right magic items--specifically, the one from the Magic Item Compendium that grants continuous mind blank--the rogue can be almost as hard for the wizard to track down as vice versa. However, if the wizard is able to bait the rogue into a trap, it's much less likely that the rogue walks out alive.


No, you feel damage, in no particular location (not in your kidney, again because of no called shots). This could be from a dagger, or the result of a distant Magic Missile; you can't tell if you didn't Spot the attack.

Okay, that's just silly. While we do assume RAW on these boards, we also assume a modicum of common sense; otherwise the wizard doesn't have to fear assassins at all, because nowhere do the rules say that being dead prevents you from doing anything.

If I get stabbed, I may not be able to tell who did it, but I can damn well tell that I've been stabbed--not magic missiled, not blasted by dragon breath, not zapped with negative energy. At the very least I'll know I took piercing and not force damage.

Shinkoro
2007-10-07, 05:09 PM
There is no answer for a full caster vs. stealth. A 20th level stealth based character is all about sneaking and ambushing and a casters only recourse is to run when such a character gets the drop on him.

A 20th level wizard, druid or cleric cannot prepare enough for a 20th level rogue who is using all his resources to assault a specific caster. A 20th level rogue is using alot of money and resources to gather information and data on a caster to optimize his assault. A caster may have a general preparedness for things. But, said rogue is preparing for the target and not generally.

Its like me watching your movements and getting all the info I can about you. Through acquaintances, associates, Exs, family, City Hall, the internet, your trash, etc. for several months. Then, combining all the information and assaulting you at the most optimal moment. You may take general precautions, but its impossible to prepare very effectively for a attack planned specifically against you.

Before someone starts screaming counter intelligence, there is counter counter intelligence too. While not the sole domain of the rogue, traditionally the rogue is more so involved in such things because his skill set and abilities support it.

If your talking a fly by night 20th level rogue attacking a 20th level caster on a humbug then I believe the caster wins.

When I think of high level roguish types attacking high level wizards I think of a Jaraxle type who plans very specifically for the encounter. And, much more is involved then some direct assault. I would consider several months short reconnaissance vs. a 20th level wizard who's general preparedness is still very formidable.

Dausuul
2007-10-07, 05:20 PM
There is no answer for a full caster vs. stealth. A 20th level stealth based character is all about sneaking and ambushing and a casters only recourse is to run when such a character gets the drop on him.

A 20th level wizard, druid or cleric cannot prepare enough for a 20th level rogue who is using all his resources to assault a specific caster. A 20th level rogue is using alot of money and resources to gather information and data on a caster to optimize his assault. A caster may have a general preparedness for things. But, said rogue is preparing for the target and not generally.

Its like me watching your movements and getting all the info I can about you. Through acquaintances, associates, Exs, family, City Hall, the internet, your trash, etc. for several months. Then, combining all the information and assaulting you at the most optimal moment. You may take general precautions, but its impossible to prepare very effectively for a attack planned specifically against you.

Before someone starts screaming counter intelligence, there is counter counter intelligence too. While not the sole domain of the rogue, traditionally the rogue is more so involved in such things because his skill set and abilities support it.

If your talking a fly by night 20th level rogue attacking a 20th level caster on a humbug then I believe the caster wins.

When I think of high level roguish types attacking high level wizards I think of a Jaraxle type who plans very specifically for the encounter. And, much more is involved then some direct assault. I would consider several months short reconnaissance vs. a 20th level wizard who's general preparedness is still very formidable.

A smart rogue would have a chance, but it's very far from a foregone conclusion. It really depends on how paranoid the wizard is, and whether the rogue can devise a trap that the wizard doesn't see through, then get the drop on the wizard decisively enough to finish her off before she can teleport to safety. Wizards are intelligent but sometimes naive, so this is not inconceivable.

But you only get one shot. If your first trap fails (unless it was so subtle that the wizard never realizes there was a trap), you can expect a 20th-level wizard to bend all her resources to locating and exterminating you.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-10-07, 05:43 PM
However, this whole thread assumes that a wizard has built himself a fortress and stays in it. Which is bullcrud in the purest sense. Why? All war and power tactics coincide in this: Strongholds are actually weakholds, they isolate you, let people tergiverse what you say and do, make you go crazy, and mark your position. Thus, it is proven true, once and again, that Sun Tzu was right. Become invisible, moving, changing, unfixed, and thou shalt be indestructible.

Chronos
2007-10-07, 06:34 PM
A high-level wizard who fears assassins will have an isolated and well-defended home, with no means of ingress for anyone unable to teleport and heavily warded against divinations that might reveal where it is or what it looks like. Or she may just sleep in a Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion, moving to a new location and re-casting each night. Most of the time she'll rely on long-distance communication and summoned minions to deal with the outside world. In the unusual event that the wizard needs to go somewhere in person, she'll greater teleport there, attend to her business, and teleport back.If what you say is true, then wizard is by far the worst class ever, far behind monk, samurai, and commoner. According to this, the way to play a wizard in D&D is to show up, shake hands with the DM, and then go home, because a true wizard would obviously never risk going on an adventure. How did this secluded wizard even get to level 20 in the first place?

illathid
2007-10-07, 06:34 PM
I don't know what "tergiverse" means...

However a wizards stronghold is somewhat out of the realm of understanding for Mr. Tzu ("Thats why anytime animals are gathered together it's called a zoo... unless it's a farm" cookie for whoever gets the reference). The wizards stronghold is literally inaccessible, except through the use of teleport. However it would so well protected not even the gods could know its exact it's location. So it would be invisible, and the wizard has no problem with mobility, as he can literally show up to any location in the world in 6 seconds. He's also made several, or more, of them around the world, and he may even have a few on other planes of existence.

So yeah, not really a weak point...

tannish2
2007-10-07, 06:40 PM
"thou shalt be"? i havent read ALL OF the art of war but you mustve read a diffrent translation than i did

also, this is essentially ninjas VS pirates, except with no obvious winner (as, historically speaking, pirates were not well trained in their weapons and ninjas were often assassins but sometimes went toe to toe with normal soldeirs)

there is an obvious winner here, everyones justt too tied up in physics or rooting for their favorite to see it. rog1/wizard3/rog1/unseen seer 10/arcane trickster 5 or if you want hide in plain sight trade in 1 level of arcane trickster for shadowdancer. you still get 9th level spells, AND full sneakyness.

and for added antiwizard cheese make the rog levels spellthief. stealing spells with your timestop+delayed (and quickened) cheese? 6 of your highest level spells gone instantly assuming the attacks hit, and

since they all happen simultaneously contingencies dont work until AFTER they hit. make one of them a dimensional anchor. maybe 2. and thats not even including the sneak attack, and you dont even need celerity cheese to get the timestop off, because your the attacker. you would also likely have a higher dexterity so you might even win initiative getting 8 spells off before the wizard had a chance to react. 2 of them being dimensional anchor (to make sure you hit and he fails save) 1 of them being forcecage. the plain wizard is SCREWED. you might have fewer 9th level spells, sure, but you get to deliver them better, and you can be gone before he has time to react if you make 5 offensive spells (3 of them quickened with rods and delayed with feat) and one greater teleport. or even just normal teleport. or planeshift. or even just a simle dimension door. and you can take specific spells if you took spellthief levels so he cant even follow you.

oh and the spoilered solution could have just as much defensive cheese as a 20th level wizard. and more, having both more skill variety AND more skill points. maybe putting points into jump and having a dead magic zone with a 20 foot wide pit?

the_tick_rules
2007-10-07, 07:54 PM
moment of presience is good. a +25 ac against that one attack. but if he has 2 weapons and can hit with em both that'd be a prob. surprises is actually a prob for mages. their weakness is they need time and room to let their spells loose.

Dausuul
2007-10-07, 08:03 PM
If what you say is true, then wizard is by far the worst class ever, far behind monk, samurai, and commoner. According to this, the way to play a wizard in D&D is to show up, shake hands with the DM, and then go home, because a true wizard would obviously never risk going on an adventure. How did this secluded wizard even get to level 20 in the first place?

I've played a 20th-level arcanist in D&D, and it's actually quite feasible to go adventuring while protecting yourself this way. You teleport to wherever you need to be, do whatever you need to do there, then pop back out to rest in a secure location.

Obviously you aren't going to be taking these measures to defend yourself at level 5, but at level 5 you don't have nearly so many people gunning for you. And even then, there's a lot to be said for sleeping in an Extended rope trick rather than a room at the inn.

Really, if you were a 20th-level wizard, why would you ever sleep at an inn, when you can just as easily sleep in your own bed every night?


However, this whole thread assumes that a wizard has built himself a fortress and stays in it. Which is bullcrud in the purest sense. Why? All war and power tactics coincide in this: Strongholds are actually weakholds, they isolate you, let people tergiverse what you say and do, make you go crazy, and mark your position. Thus, it is proven true, once and again, that Sun Tzu was right. Become invisible, moving, changing, unfixed, and thou shalt be indestructible.

You haven't proven anything, just spouted a lot of assertions with nothing to back them up. Strongholds are useful, as every military leader has known since the dawn of time; otherwise they wouldn't keep building them. Now, if you do nothing but huddle in your stronghold and never take the offensive, of course you'll never win a war, but that doesn't make the stronghold worthless.

In this case, we seem to be assuming the wizard doesn't know the rogue is coming, so the wizard doesn't even know the war is on. So taking the offensive isn't an option. As soon as the wizard knows an enemy is out there... let's put it this way, there is nobody, but nobody, who can practice Sun Tzu's art as well as a wizard with greater teleport and discern location.


("Thats why anytime animals are gathered together it's called a zoo... unless it's a farm" cookie for whoever gets the reference).

This is what happens when you use your fight money to buy two of every animal on earth.

Aquillion
2007-10-08, 12:13 AM
All of this is asking the wrong question; we've gotten sidetracked into assassinating wizards again. That is not an interesting question. Wizard fears non-magical assassins? Wizard plane-shifts to someplace safe. Problem solved. Game over. No need to talk about it anymore.

Now let's discuss how things work in the actual game, by comparing a party with a skill-monkey to one where the arcane caster tries to completely replicate the utility provided by the skill monkey. That's what we're really worried about... can the arcane caster render the skill monkey obsolete? And if they can, how much of their resources does it take up? (If they're using up a major percentage of them, it's no big deal.)

This is a typical adventuring environment. That means, among other things: No scrying everything before you touch it. No having summoned creatures check every single surface, either. No charming, mind-probing, or whatevering every single NPC you meet. All of these things are fine when you're in a dangerous place (the tomb of horrors, say), but doing it with every single person, object, and place you encounter definitely goes into "too many resources" territory. A typical adventuring environment generally will also not allow the wizard to rest and recover all their spells every 5 steps. They can call an emergency rest when in dire need, but generally the party has places to go and things to do. Finally, although they can use teleport a lot, there are occasionally going to be situations that will call for actual walking around.

Note that broad divinations are extremely difficult to use; Divination itself gives only cryptic responses that may be only tangentally related to the question, Contact Other Plane is yes or no and may give bad answers, while all other divinations require more specific knowledge of what you're asking. Foresight is powerful, but detects only impending harm to the wizard itself, and not always as early as you might like (enough time to avoid being flat-footed, maybe enough to avoid a surprise round, but not necessarily enough to avoid walking into the ambush in the first place.)

I would argue that there are skills that a wizard cannot effectively replicate in a such a typical adventuring environment. Most importantly, the wizard cannot effectively prepare for threats he is unaware of while still travelling with a typical adventuring party. There is no spell that can efficiently mimic the effects of spot, sense motive, and listen at disconcerting completely unexpected things (not just dangers; these can reveal information that leads to treasures or other important details, too, stuff the wizard would have no idea where to even begin scrying for.) Sure, the wizard can use mind-affecting spells when interrogating prisoners, but the rogue is much more likely to catch the lying shopkeeper; the wizard can use magic to find people he knows to expect, but the rogue can spot that cowering thief hiding in the apparently empty shack.

namo
2007-10-08, 01:45 AM
If allowing a rogue to use Sleight of Hand is cheese, then allowing a wizard to cast spells is cheese. Sleight of Hand (or its older name, Pick Pockets) is the reason the class exists. If a 14-point-buy single-class rogue with none of his wealth by level and using only a fraction of his abilities is so cheesy that you have to resort to five different splatbooks to counter it as a wizard, then you're pretty much conceding the argument.

Perhaps I should have been more explicit, but I thought this was widely acknowledged : the fixed DC is a problem. Any rogue with a SoH check above 20 can steal any light object. It can be noticed, sure, but the item lifting can't be opposed.
What other situation is this closest to ? Diplomacy. Diplomacy also has fixed DCs, and a check can have important consequences (admittedly even more so than SoH).
Repeat after me : fixed DCs are bad. :smallwink:

The problem with Sunder is different : sundering weapons an remain difficult throughout the levels. But sundering items... The formula doesn't scale well at all. Meaning in a Fighter 20 vs Fighter 20 duel, the contestants are likely to not be able to hit each other (AC is easier to raise than attack) ...but they can sunder each other's rings and belts and cloaks and earrings ! How does it make any sense ?

@Aquillion : Spot and Listen are not that hard to replace : as mentioned, blindsense is a good replacement. Sense Motive is definitively harder. That said, I love rogues and I don't want them to be all replaced by casters.

@tannish : your explanation is rather unclear. How does the Spellthief get 8 spells off ? Note that Dimensional Anchor + Forcecage combo works rather better on creatures that can't dispel/disintegrate/disjunct.

Finally, hiding is *not* invisibility.

trehek
2007-10-08, 06:43 AM
I think that Foresight is a effective response to the plan of a rogue sneaking up on a wizard and robbing him blind. I believe that someone targetting you with a SoH check counts as "impending danger or harm to the subject of the spell".

Kurald Galain
2007-10-08, 08:26 AM
Isn't there some low-level divination spell that detects the presence of thoughts? This would pick up every hidden character as long as it's alive.

Kaelik
2007-10-08, 09:55 AM
Isn't there some low-level divination spell that detects the presence of thoughts? This would pick up every hidden character as long as it's alive.

Except that a rogue would have to be Mind Blanked to even be considered moderately safe, otherwise scry would find them no problem.

Rockphed
2007-10-08, 01:00 PM
Isn't there some low-level divination spell that detects the presence of thoughts? This would pick up every hidden character as long as it's alive.

Which spell? Does it give exact position? Sure, you know that somebody is thinking of robbing you blind, but if you are in a crowded city, you get that from every lowlife.


Finally, hiding is *not* invisibility.

Indeed, it is not. It is the art of making people not notice that you exist. Have you never walked into a room and not noticed somebody for twenty minutes? That is what hide does. Or it lets you be unnoticeable while walking across a room or down a street.

Wolfwood2
2007-10-08, 01:34 PM
You know, all the Hide and Move Silently ranks in the world will be defeated by a humble Alarm spell.

TimeWizard
2007-10-08, 01:56 PM
No, the arcane role can not be a full replacement to the skill monkey role. Any one who tells you different is either a fanboy or a splatbook wielding theorist.

tainsouvra
2007-10-08, 01:58 PM
No, the arcane role can not be a full replacement to the skill monkey role. Any one who tells you different is either a fanboy or a splatbook wielding theorist. That isn't what this thread is about, did you read more than the title? :smallconfused:

Chronos
2007-10-08, 02:49 PM
Detect Thoughts has a duration of "Concentration (max 1 min/level)", and it can't be made permanent. So unless the wizard is in the habit of casting it at random times each day and scanning, he won't find the rogue that way.

You know, all the Hide and Move Silently ranks in the world will be defeated by a humble Alarm spell.That's what the maxed ranks in Search and Disable Device are for. Magical traps might be harder to disarm than mundane ones, but still quite doable for a high enough level rogue. Come to think of it, this would probably work versus the Magic Mouthed items, too.

Kaelik
2007-10-08, 03:51 PM
Detect Thoughts has a duration of "Concentration (max 1 min/level)", and it can't be made permanent. So unless the wizard is in the habit of casting it at random times each day and scanning, he won't find the rogue that way.

Detect thought is nothing, but if you don't have Mindblank then the one level dip in Mindbender and the feat that grants knowledge of everyone in your range is going to give you away still. Bottom line Mindblank is not, and never has been, optional.


That's what the maxed ranks in Search and Disable Device are for. Magical traps might be harder to disarm than mundane ones, but still quite doable for a high enough level rogue. Come to think of it, this would probably work versus the Magic Mouthed items, too.

Alarm is not a magical trap. Nor is magic mouth. Things that are magical traps are specifically called that. Spells with durations are not magical traps. By that logic a high enough check could disable a forcecage.

Shinkoro
2007-10-08, 09:33 PM
Alarm has a area 20ft from a fixed point in space. Not really a mobile precaution. Even a 20th level wizard with a Ring of Wizardry and a high intelligence will run out of Alarm spells in in pretty short order.


I think the ability to UMD allows a rogue to really improvise and come up with some unique solutions to attacking high level full casters. Many spells and even some other very powerful abilities are duplicated with various magical items. Thats opens up some sick possibilities for a high level rogue who can get his hands on the right items. I mean emulating a class feature has a DC of 20, its ridiculously low considering the items a rogue with UMD can use which are intended for other classes.


A staff with greater dispelling and detect magic can allow a rogue to bypass several magical wards. Although unless a caster is sleeping or unconscious they may have some idea that their spells have been dispelled.

Draz74
2007-10-08, 09:57 PM
Alarm is not a magical trap.

That's not what the SRD section on Traps (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#magicDeviceTrapCost) thinks.

I admit Magic Mouth would probably be up to DM interpretation.

SpiderKoopa
2007-10-08, 10:20 PM
Doesn't robe of eyes still work against sneak attacks?
Or perhaps I just embarassed myself by admitting I don't know all the updated rules for magic items.:smallredface:

Chronos
2007-10-09, 01:12 AM
Robe of Eyes prevents flanking and the loss of dex bonus while flatfooted, which removes the two most common sources of sneak attack, but it doesn't do anything about sneak attacks from not being able to see the attacker, or from the wearer being restrained. It does give a +10 to Spot, but that's not nearly enough to catch up with the rogue's Hide.


Detect thought is nothing, but if you don't have Mindblank then the one level dip in Mindbender and the feat that grants knowledge of everyone in your range is going to give you away still. Bottom line Mindblank is not, and never has been, optional.How common is it for a wizard to dip into Mindbender? I hardly ever see folks discussing it in part of builds, here. I'm not remotely claiming that rogues can sneak up on everyone: I already admitted it'd be tough vs. druids, and I'm quite willing to add Mindbenders to the list of hard-to-sneak classes.

And the reason I would consider Alarm and Magic Mouth to be magical traps, but not (for example) Forcecage, is that Alarm and Magic Mouth are both cast and then left unattended, and it's only once they get triggered that they actually do anything.

Kaelik
2007-10-09, 02:01 AM
How common is it for a wizard to dip into Mindbender? I hardly ever see folks discussing it in part of builds, here. I'm not remotely claiming that rogues can sneak up on everyone: I already admitted it'd be tough vs. druids, and I'm quite willing to add Mindbenders to the list of hard-to-sneak classes.

Well I love to grab a one level dip into Mindbender. Depends on your build, but Mindbender 1 is much more likely then Wizard 20. But even if Mindbender didn't exist you would still need Mindblank because if you didn't have it you would be scryed or otherwise divined.


And the reason I would consider Alarm and Magic Mouth to be magical traps, but not (for example) Forcecage, is that Alarm and Magic Mouth are both cast and then left unattended, and it's only once they get triggered that they actually do anything.

Well by that logic why don't you disable his Contingency, Spell Sequencer, and his Clone too. I would say look up the DMG definition of trap, they must all have X things. I have no idea what those are, but it's a decent start for defining traps.

Aquillion
2007-10-09, 02:38 AM
Well by that logic why don't you disable his Contingency, Spell Sequencer, and his Clone too. I would say look up the DMG definition of trap, they must all have X things. I have no idea what those are, but it's a decent start for defining traps.While it's not spelled out explictly, the SRD strongly implies that things like Alarm and Magic Mouth do count as traps; it even creates a special category for them, called "spell traps":


Magic traps are further divided into spell traps and magic device traps. Magic device traps initiate spell effects when activated, just as wands, rods, rings, and other magic items do. Creating a magic device trap requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat (see Designing a Trap and the feat description).

Spell traps are simply spells that themselves function as traps. Creating a spell trap requires the services of a character who can cast the needed spell or spells, who is usually either the character creating the trap or an NPC spellcaster hired for the purpose.


Magic Traps

Many spells can be used to create dangerous traps. Unless the spell or item description states otherwise, assume the following to be true.

* A successful Search check (DC 25 + spell level) made by a rogue (and only a rogue) detects a magic trap before it goes off. Other characters have no chance to find a magic trap with a Search check.
* Magic traps permit a saving throw in order to avoid the effect (DC 10 + spell level ◊ 1.5).
* Magic traps may be disarmed by a rogue (and only a rogue) with a successful Disable Device check (DC 25 + spell level). I would say that this section (particularly the odd "many spells" and "unless it states otherwise" wording) strongly imply that these rules are meant to any spell that can be used to create a trap, including not only Alarm and Magic Mouth, but Contingency as well.

Note that it goes on to provide rules that are clearly intended for a broad category of spells:
Magic Trap

The DC for both Search and Disable Device checks is equal to 25 + the spell level of the highest-level spell used. Only characters with the trapfinding class feature can attempt a Search check or a Disable Device check involving a magic trap. These DCs do not affect the trapís cost or CR.


Magic Trap

For a spell trap or magic device trap, the base CR is 1. The highest-level spell used modifies the CR (see Table: CR Modifiers for Magic Traps).

Note also that Sepia Snake Sigil is given as an example spell trap on that page; the description of that spell makes no mention of it being a trap or of the fact that it can be disabled by a rogue. This strongly implies that Alarm, Magic Mouth, and, yes, some uses of Contingency would fall into the same category. Why would Sepia Snake Sigil be included and those spells excluded?

tainsouvra
2007-10-09, 03:49 AM
That's not what the SRD section on Traps (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#magicDeviceTrapCost) thinks. Actually, it doesn't say that the Alarm spell is a trap in there--in fact it's logically incompatible with what the SRD says on that page. You may wish to read what you're linking, it actually says that the Alarm spell can be used during trap creation to set up a proximity trigger...which makes sense, since that's exactly what the Alarm spell is, a proximity sensor.
I admit Magic Mouth would probably be up to DM interpretation. If, by "DM interpretation", you mean "it can be houseruled", then yes...but "we can use Rule 0" is generally not a good answer to a rules question. Magic Mouth is not a magical trap in the rules as written, nor is there any indication that it is intended to be one.

tainsouvra
2007-10-09, 04:06 AM
Note also that Sepia Snake Sigil is given as an example spell trap on that page; the description of that spell makes no mention of it being a trap or of the fact that it can be disabled by a rogue. Sepia Snake Sigil is an unusual case, check out the spells for other Magic Traps listed (this, for example (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireTrap.htm)) and you'll see that they do list DC's and such.
Why would Sepia Snake Sigil be included and those spells excluded? Sepia Snake Sigil functions like many of the traps listed, unlike Magic Mouth or Alarm whose effects are wholly different. It's really no more in-depth than that. Sepia Snake Sigil waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck, so they list it as a duck. Alarm/Magic Mouth don't waddle or quack, so they aren't listed--in fact Alarm is specifically listed as a trigger option in trap creation rather than a trap, which makes little sense if it were a trap itself.

Aquillion
2007-10-09, 10:32 AM
Sepia Snake Sigil is an unusual case, check out the spells for other Magic Traps listed (this, for example (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireTrap.htm)) and you'll see that they do list DC's and such. Sepia Snake Sigil functions like many of the traps listed, unlike Magic Mouth or Alarm whose effects are wholly different. It's really no more in-depth than that. Sepia Snake Sigil waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck, so they list it as a duck. Alarm/Magic Mouth don't waddle or quack, so they aren't listed--in fact Alarm is specifically listed as a trigger option in trap creation rather than a trap, which makes little sense if it were a trap itself.Nonsense. Alarm is a spell placed in advance that triggers based on someone's actions and causes potentially harmful (to them) results. It's every bit as much of a trap as Sepia Snake Sigil. A suitably-worded Contingency holding a Hold Person is almost exactly like Sepia Snake Sigil; both indisputably fall in the broad rubric of "many spells" that "can be used to create dangerous traps".

Likewise, the rules helpfully say that it is not necessary for the spells in question to list trap DCs; it says Unless the spell or item description states otherwise, assume the following to be true. If Septia Snake Sigil was an accidential exception, rather than an example of the rules that apply equally to (say) Alarm, then that sentence would not be there. But it is; the rules explictly instruct us to apply specific trap DCs and related checks to spells, when used as traps, unless they say otherwise. Obviously, if every spell trap was meant to have those lines about how to deal with it as a trap, then that "unless they say otherwise" and those rules for providing the DC yourself would not be necessary... the only possible conclusion is that those rules are provided so that DMs can assign a DC to spells such as Alarm, Magic Mouth, or Contingency (when used as a trap.)

Alarm, Magic Mouth, and (particularly) Contingency are spells that can be applied to "create dangerous traps" and do not "state otherwise." You might not think that that is the intent of the rules, and may therefore choose to houserule otherwise; but I think that from the RAW, any spell used as a trap--in other words, any spell that goes off in response to someone else's action, and does something that is potentially 'harmful'--automatically falls under the trap rules. This makes perfect sense to me, and I can't see how anyone could read the rules any other way (nor why they would want to read the rules any other way.)

The fact that alarm can also be used as a component to other traps (in addition to being an archtypical spell trap itself) is irrelevent. The rules give instructions for applying the trap rules to any spell that is used as a trap, specifically noting that those rules apply unless the spell says otherwise; ergo, any 'triggered' spell with potentially harmful effects (including a simple alarm) is governed by the rules for traps.

GoC
2007-10-09, 11:04 AM
The stealth guy can't use range attacks as there are tons (at least 20) of defences against those.
And as for sneaking up... widened Tremorsense&Dragonsense anyone?
Instant Refuge to escape.
A permanent Ironguard item might be useful.
If you really want to be mean spend all your time ethereal and use Astral Projection to talk to the baker (if I were a retired 20th level wizard then that's what I'd do).
And put in Maximinized Death Throes just for spite. :P

tannish2: You appear to have built a type of wizard to defeat this one...

A wizard can easily be stealthy but detecting a stealthy rogue is difficult...

btw: Recon is pretty much impossible.

JimmyDPawn
2007-10-09, 11:34 AM
Since people are using Sleight of Hand and sundering items, I feel the wizard is also entitled to as much cheese as he wants :
- Telepathy (100', from a dip in Mindbender) + Mindsight (LoM) would require him to have Mind Blank, otherwise he gets detected within the range of the telepathy.
Now, people keep bringing this one up, using telepathy to 'hear' a rogue coming. But I'm fairly certain that Telepathy doesn't give you free alert into the minds or even the presense of people. You can talk into people's heads, but you still have to know that they're there.

Kaelik
2007-10-09, 12:06 PM
Now, people keep bringing this one up, using telepathy to 'hear' a rogue coming. But I'm fairly certain that Telepathy doesn't give you free alert into the minds or even the presense of people. You can talk into people's heads, but you still have to know that they're there.

That would be what the Mindsight feat you quoted is for.

Dausuul
2007-10-09, 12:10 PM
Now, people keep bringing this one up, using telepathy to 'hear' a rogue coming. But I'm fairly certain that Telepathy doesn't give you free alert into the minds or even the presense of people. You can talk into people's heads, but you still have to know that they're there.

Not with the Mindsight feat. That one gives you total awareness of all minds within the radius. Of course, I'm pretty sure it was never intended for PCs; the telepathy prerequisite and the fact that it's in Lords of Madness suggests it was meant for mind flayers and the like.

In any event, though, a mind blank item is almost a necessity when going up against a high-level wizard, even one without Mindsight cheese. Otherwise you run the risk of the wizard learning of your existence through divination magic before you even put your plan into execution... though, again, that depends on the paranoia level of the wizard.

Fortunately for the rogue, the Magic Item Compendium contains just such an item. It's expensive (120K), but well within the price range for a 20th-level rogue.

Kaelik
2007-10-09, 12:13 PM
Nonsense. Alarm is a spell placed in advance that triggers based on someone's actions and causes potentially harmful (to them) results. It's every bit as much of a trap as Sepia Snake Sigil. A suitably-worded Contingency holding a Hold Person is almost exactly like Sepia Snake Sigil; both indisputably fall in the broad rubric of "many spells" that "can be used to create dangerous traps".

Likewise, the rules helpfully say that it is not necessary for the spells in question to list trap DCs; it says Unless the spell or item description states otherwise, assume the following to be true. If Septia Snake Sigil was an accidential exception, rather than an example of the rules that apply equally to (say) Alarm, then that sentence would not be there. But it is; the rules explictly instruct us to apply specific trap DCs and related checks to spells, when used as traps, unless they say otherwise. Obviously, if every spell trap was meant to have those lines about how to deal with it as a trap, then that "unless they say otherwise" and those rules for providing the DC yourself would not be necessary... the only possible conclusion is that those rules are provided so that DMs can assign a DC to spells such as Alarm, Magic Mouth, or Contingency (when used as a trap.)

Alarm, Magic Mouth, and (particularly) Contingency are spells that can be applied to "create dangerous traps" and do not "state otherwise." You might not think that that is the intent of the rules, and may therefore choose to houserule otherwise; but I think that from the RAW, any spell used as a trap--in other words, any spell that goes off in response to someone else's action, and does something that is potentially 'harmful'--automatically falls under the trap rules. This makes perfect sense to me, and I can't see how anyone could read the rules any other way (nor why they would want to read the rules any other way.)

The fact that alarm can also be used as a component to other traps (in addition to being an archtypical spell trap itself) is irrelevent. The rules give instructions for applying the trap rules to any spell that is used as a trap, specifically noting that those rules apply unless the spell says otherwise; ergo, any 'triggered' spell with potentially harmful effects (including a simple alarm) is governed by the rules for traps.

First of all, you have the worse definition of harmful ever. If an alarm spell or Magic Mouth is harmful then so is a contingent teleport on the wizard. So by your logic, not only would a rogue be able to disable the wizard's contingency, but if a fighter triggered a Contingency (If I am struck, teleport me home.) then the fighter would get a saving throw to prevent the wizard from teleporting. That's just silly.

Neither Alarm nor Magic Mouth is harmful, much less dangerous (the actual word used.)

Secondly, by your logic I see nothing stopping a Rogue from disabling a Fireball (must ready an action). Unlike Alarm that spell is actually dangerous.

Chronos
2007-10-09, 01:22 PM
Well by that logic why don't you disable his Contingency, Spell Sequencer, and his Clone too.I don't know what Spell Sequencer does, so I can't comment on that. But I don't need to disable Clone, because I don't care if the wizard is able (under certain circumstances) to bring dead allies back, with much more difficulty than a lower-level cleric. Contrary to what many people seem to believe, it doesn't do any good (under RAW) to clone a person before they're killed, since if the person is still alive, the clone is just an inert lump of flesh. Inert lumps of flesh don't spontaneously come to life just because a soul becomes available... If they did, they wouldn't exactly be inert.

tainsouvra
2007-10-09, 01:32 PM
I don't know what Spell Sequencer does, so I can't comment on that. But I don't need to disable Clone, because I don't care if the wizard is able (under certain circumstances) to bring dead allies back, with much more difficulty than a lower-level cleric. Contrary to what many people seem to believe, it doesn't do any good (under RAW) to clone a person before they're killed, since if the person is still alive, the clone is just an inert lump of flesh. Inert lumps of flesh don't spontaneously come to life just because a soul becomes available... If they did, they wouldn't exactly be inert. 1) The point was that these spells are not reasonably considered to be traps, but also fit the criterion that the person he was disagreeing with used when defining a trap. Thus, either they are all traps or none of them are traps...and with some of them clearly not being traps, the implication is clear.

2) Clone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clone.htm):
This spell makes an inert duplicate of a creature. If the original individual has been slain, its soul immediately transfers to the clone, creating a replacement (provided that the soul is free and willing to return).
Gotta read the spell before you comment on it :smalltongue:

Kaelik
2007-10-09, 01:34 PM
I don't know what Spell Sequencer does, so I can't comment on that. But I don't need to disable Clone, because I don't care if the wizard is able (under certain circumstances) to bring dead allies back, with much more difficulty than a lower-level cleric. Contrary to what many people seem to believe, it doesn't do any good (under RAW) to clone a person before they're killed, since if the person is still alive, the clone is just an inert lump of flesh. Inert lumps of flesh don't spontaneously come to life just because a soul becomes available... If they did, they wouldn't exactly be inert.

I don't care whether you want to disable it. I'm saying that under your silly system (or someone elses?) of interpreting "Magical Traps" you can disable anything with any sort of trigger effect. Including the raising of his friends.

Spell sequencer by the way allows his to have a store of spells to be cast at a later time simultaneously. That it has no outward manifestation (like contingency, magic mouth, and alarm) does not prevent a rogue from making a DC 29 Search Check to see inside the casters brain, and a DC 29 Disable Device Check to reach inside the casters brain and make him forget spells.

Kaelik
2007-10-09, 01:37 PM
2) Clone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clone.htm):
This spell makes an inert duplicate of a creature. If the original individual has been slain, its soul immediately transfers to the clone, creating a replacement (provided that the soul is free and willing to return).
Gotta read the spell before you comment on it :smalltongue:

He interprets this line "A duplicate can be grown while the original still lives, or when the original soul is unavailable, but the resulting body is merely a soulless bit of inert flesh, which rots if not preserved." as meaning that you it will always remain inert. Even though the line you quoted clearly indicates that a dead persons soul can move to an already created clone, since if clones could only be created after the death there is no way for a soul to move immediately to said clone.

Dausuul
2007-10-09, 02:08 PM
He interprets this line "A duplicate can be grown while the original still lives, or when the original soul is unavailable, but the resulting body is merely a soulless bit of inert flesh, which rots if not preserved." as meaning that you it will always remain inert. Even though the line you quoted clearly indicates that a dead persons soul can move to an already created clone, since if clones could only be created after the death there is no way for a soul to move immediately to said clone.

That's actually a fairly legitimate interpretation of the spell text. In fact, I think it's the most logical one:

"This spell makes an inert duplicate of a creature. If the original individual has been slain, its soul immediately transfers to the clone, creating a replacement (provided that the soul is free and willing to return)."

Note the tense on the conditional there--"if the original individual has been slain," not "if the original individual is slain." That implies that this effect happens if the original individual was already dead when the spell was cast. Nowhere in the spell description is it stated or implied that the same effect will trigger if the original dies post-cloning.

(Frankly, I think this spell has lost a lot of the coolness of the 2E version, in which you could clone yourself while still living and get a viable, active clone, but then each version of you became totally obsessed with killing the other.)

tainsouvra
2007-10-09, 02:17 PM
Withdrawn, a new thread has been started for this subject.

Kaelik
2007-10-09, 02:17 PM
That's actually a fairly legitimate interpretation of the spell text. In fact, I think it's the most logical one:

"This spell makes an inert duplicate of a creature. If the original individual has been slain, its soul immediately transfers to the clone, creating a replacement (provided that the soul is free and willing to return)."

Note the tense on the conditional there--"if the original individual has been slain," not "if the original individual is slain." That implies that this effect happens if the original individual was already dead when the spell was cast. Nowhere in the spell description is it stated or implied that the same effect will trigger if the original dies post-cloning.

(Frankly, I think this spell has lost a lot of the coolness of the 2E version, in which you could clone yourself while still living and get a viable, active clone, but then each version of you became totally obsessed with killing the other.)

I don't really know about the legitimacy of any position over another. I can see exactly how either position can be seen as true. However, for the temporary discussion it doesn't actually matter what it does, only that it can be disabled by a rogue using the one (very poor) definition of magical trap.

tainsouvra
2007-10-09, 02:21 PM
However, for the temporary discussion it doesn't actually matter what it does, only that it can be disabled by a rogue using the one (very poor) definition of magical trap. That's true, we wouldn't want to lose sight of the reason it came up in the first place :smallsmile:

NullAshton
2007-10-09, 03:07 PM
Ah, the fun a Ring of Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#invisibility) can be. Defeats magic mouth(it explicitly says so). It should also work to fool Contingency, unless it has some sort of telepathic ability that I don't know about. Alarm can't be taken with you as it's on a point in SPACE. Not attached to an object.

Now then, the wizard MIGHT have a contingency to teleport away when he takes damage. This can be taken care of as well.

First off, we can assume that the rogue is not detected by detect magic or arcane sight. Those can be countered by a single fake magic aura on the ring, or by a lead sheet in front of you that's incidentally also covered by invisibility. Alternatively, just avoid the gaze of the wizard and you can't be detected.

Second, spells such as Foresight and Moment of Prescience. BOTH of these can be counteracted with Mind Blank. Mind Blank would prevent Foresight from working as Foresight gives warning about the rogue about to stab the wizard. It would theoretically also prevent Moment of Prescience from working, as the single attack would be coming from the rogue, and thus Mind Blank would prevent the AC bonus against that attack.

We're not completely done yet. Even after this attack, the wizard probably has a contingency set to teleport him the heck away. There's not much to do about that, as you did indeed stab the wizard and there's no getting out of that. (You could steal the focus needed for Contingency, but that can be iffy at best and the paranoid wizard might keep decoys). The simple solution... let him teleport away.

The key to all this is that the dagger is actually coated in powerful Black Lotus Extract. The most expensive posion in the SRD. What is unique about this poison is that it does 3d6 initial constitution damage... that's an average of 10.5 constitution damage to start off with, killing most frail wizards. That might not work immediately, but that's where the secondary damage comes in, you have to apply the damage AGAIN a minute later. This would kill most wizards. I also recall a feat that allows you to strike with two weapons simultaneously, so you could stab the wizard with TWO daggers laced with that poison... practically noone would survive that.

Now, the wizard could have had a periapt of proof against posion. That would foil the rogue's plans you say? Well, there's another way... what if the rogue also took levels in the Assassin prestige class? The assassin could study the wizard for nearly half a minute, then stick a dagger in the wizard's heart... cheaper this way.

There is, again, the scarab of protection, but that's the only thing I can think of that would protect against this... however, your hypothetical wizard had none of these items, and could only have the immunity to posion or immunity to (non-magical) death effects active.

Kaelik
2007-10-09, 03:27 PM
Ah, the fun a Ring of Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#invisibility) can be. Defeats magic mouth(it explicitly says so). It should also work to fool Contingency, unless it has some sort of telepathic ability that I don't know about. Alarm can't be taken with you as it's on a point in SPACE. Not attached to an object.

A) Alarm would be used to guard a place that you intend to be a while (Like your house? Like the Auto Alarm that goes with some Hut spell?)
B)It doesn't matter if the magic mouth can see you if it is set to say something when it leaves your possession. Cause it's still leaving your possession. So guess what, now the Item you are holding is screaming, Ignoring that Hide is a ridiculous skill (we all know that) you could grap the floating screaming item out of mid air even if you couldn't see the rogue holding it.
C)Contingencies are worded to trigger when certain things occur, It doesn't matter if the Wizard knows that it is occurring or not, it still triggers.




Second, spells such as Foresight and Moment of Prescience. BOTH of these can be counteracted with Mind Blank. Mind Blank would prevent Foresight from working as Foresight gives warning about the rogue about to stab the wizard. It would theoretically also prevent Moment of Prescience from working, as the single attack would be coming from the rogue, and thus Mind Blank would prevent the AC bonus against that attack.

The primary benefit of Foresight is that it means you are never flatfooted. As such, you cannot be SA and you can cast any immediate action spells you have, such as Greater Celerity, which basically allows you to do whatever you want for the next six seconds including Teleport away, throw around some damamge, drop a Forcecage or even cast Timestop and give yourself lots more time. Therefore, you get to do nothing.


We're not completely done yet. Even after this attack, the wizard probably has a contingency set to teleport him the heck away. There's not much to do about that, as you did indeed stab the wizard and there's no getting out of that. (You could steal the focus needed for Contingency, but that can be iffy at best and the paranoid wizard might keep decoys). The simple solution... let him teleport away.

The key to all this is that the dagger is actually coated in powerful Black Lotus Extract. The most expensive posion in the SRD. What is unique about this poison is that it does 3d6 initial constitution damage... that's an average of 10.5 constitution damage to start off with, killing most frail wizards. That might not work immediately, but that's where the secondary damage comes in, you have to apply the damage AGAIN a minute later. This would kill most wizards. I also recall a feat that allows you to strike with two weapons simultaneously, so you could stab the wizard with TWO daggers laced with that poison... practically noone would survive that.

Now, the wizard could have had a periapt of proof against posion. That would foil the rogue's plans you say? Well, there's another way... what if the rogue also took levels in the Assassin prestige class? The assassin could study the wizard for nearly half a minute, then stick a dagger in the wizard's heart... cheaper this way.

There is, again, the scarab of protection, but that's the only thing I can think of that would protect against this... however, your hypothetical wizard had none of these items, and could only have the immunity to posion or immunity to (non-magical) death effects active.

Spells. Silly silly you. You forgot that there are spells that grant you immunity to poison. And spells that grant you immunity to death effects (not sure if Deathward works for that specifically, but there are other spells out there I'm sure.) Or he could just become a Necropolitian or Bone Creature and be immune. Or he could just make an item for a different slot. There are plenty of ways to deal with that.

Thinker
2007-10-09, 03:27 PM
Ah, the fun a Ring of Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#invisibility) can be. Defeats magic mouth(it explicitly says so). It should also work to fool Contingency, unless it has some sort of telepathic ability that I don't know about. Alarm can't be taken with you as it's on a point in SPACE. Not attached to an object.

Now then, the wizard MIGHT have a contingency to teleport away when he takes damage. This can be taken care of as well.

First off, we can assume that the rogue is not detected by detect magic or arcane sight. Those can be countered by a single fake magic aura on the ring, or by a lead sheet in front of you that's incidentally also covered by invisibility. Alternatively, just avoid the gaze of the wizard and you can't be detected.

Second, spells such as Foresight and Moment of Prescience. BOTH of these can be counteracted with Mind Blank. Mind Blank would prevent Foresight from working as Foresight gives warning about the rogue about to stab the wizard. It would theoretically also prevent Moment of Prescience from working, as the single attack would be coming from the rogue, and thus Mind Blank would prevent the AC bonus against that attack.

We're not completely done yet. Even after this attack, the wizard probably has a contingency set to teleport him the heck away. There's not much to do about that, as you did indeed stab the wizard and there's no getting out of that. (You could steal the focus needed for Contingency, but that can be iffy at best and the paranoid wizard might keep decoys). The simple solution... let him teleport away.

The key to all this is that the dagger is actually coated in powerful Black Lotus Extract. The most expensive posion in the SRD. What is unique about this poison is that it does 3d6 initial constitution damage... that's an average of 10.5 constitution damage to start off with, killing most frail wizards. That might not work immediately, but that's where the secondary damage comes in, you have to apply the damage AGAIN a minute later. This would kill most wizards. I also recall a feat that allows you to strike with two weapons simultaneously, so you could stab the wizard with TWO daggers laced with that poison... practically noone would survive that.

Now, the wizard could have had a periapt of proof against posion. That would foil the rogue's plans you say? Well, there's another way... what if the rogue also took levels in the Assassin prestige class? The assassin could study the wizard for nearly half a minute, then stick a dagger in the wizard's heart... cheaper this way.

There is, again, the scarab of protection, but that's the only thing I can think of that would protect against this... however, your hypothetical wizard had none of these items, and could only have the immunity to posion or immunity to (non-magical) death effects active.

So you're saying that by using a bunch of [wizard] magic to sneak up on the wizard and then using the most expensive poison you can find it might kill the wizard

-OR-

You can sneak up on the wizard, again using a bunch of [wizard] magic, and using an attack that might not work if the wizard happens to have a common item: mithral buckler of heavy fortification he could potentially harm the wizard?

Yes, a character designed entirely around defeating a wizard might be able to do so if the wizard is playing fairly. The problem is that then the character isn't good at much else and that wizards cheat.

NullAshton
2007-10-09, 03:38 PM
So you're saying that by using a bunch of [wizard] magic to sneak up on the wizard and then using the most expensive poison you can find it might kill the wizard

-OR-

You can sneak up on the wizard, again using a bunch of [wizard] magic, and using an attack that might not work if the wizard happens to have a common item: mithral buckler of heavy fortification he could potentially harm the wizard?

Yes, a character designed entirely around defeating a wizard might be able to do so if the wizard is playing fairly. The problem is that then the character isn't good at much else and that wizards cheat.

Note that I just used about 30,000 GP of items, plus getting a few spells cast on him. One, mainly, mind blank. And possibly a lead sheet.

Buckler of heavy fortification will not work. It merely negates the extra damage, it does not prevent the sneak attack from actually happening. Thus, the death attack will work just fine, if not the extra sneak attack damage.

And yes, you still need outside help... mainly one level 8 spell that lasts for 24 hours, along with one/two applications of a poison. A price to pay for taking care of a pesky wizard that thinks he/she is higher than everyone else.

Thinker
2007-10-09, 03:49 PM
Note that I just used about 30,000 GP of items, plus getting a few spells cast on him. One, mainly, mind blank. And possibly a lead sheet.

Buckler of heavy fortification will not work. It merely negates the extra damage, it does not prevent the sneak attack from actually happening. Thus, the death attack will work just fine, if not the extra sneak attack damage.

And yes, you still need outside help... mainly one level 8 spell that lasts for 24 hours, along with one/two applications of a poison. A price to pay for taking care of a pesky wizard that thinks he/she is higher than everyone else.
I'll concede that the buckler won't work for the death attack, I had previously misread fortification's effects. I still maintain that you will not get close enough to the wizard to ever actually kill it and even if by some sheer luck you do you will not be able to permanently kill it. The wizard is higher than everyone else. :smalltongue: I say this and I never play casters

Kaelik
2007-10-09, 04:04 PM
See my above post, different ways to be immune to both effects are.

Scarab + Custom Item in different spot.
Scarab + spell that grants poison immunity.
Spell protects against death effects + Proof against Poison.
Spell + Spell.
Scarab + Additional effect on item.
Necropolitian/Bone Creature is immune to both.

NullAshton
2007-10-09, 04:11 PM
See my above post, different ways to be immune to both effects are.

Scarab + Custom Item in different spot.
Scarab + spell that grants poison immunity.
Spell protects against death effects + Proof against Poison.
Spell + Spell.
Scarab + Additional effect on item.
Necropolitian/Bone Creature is immune to both.

1. Requires the DM to approve of such a custom item.
2. Give me a spell then.
3. Again, give me a spell. Said spell has to work on non-magical death effects, and be something you could reasonably keep up all the time. It's pushing it just to have foresight up all the time.
4. See above.
5. Again, requires the DM to approve of such a thing. Not to mention expensive, and you probably have to replace it a lot...
6. Unless the wizard has some way to change his/her race, it's very unlikely that the wizard would be one of those.

tannish2
2007-10-09, 04:56 PM
Robe of Eyes prevents flanking and the loss of dex bonus while flatfooted, which removes the two most common sources of sneak attack, but it doesn't do anything about sneak attacks from not being able to see the attacker, or from the wearer being restrained. It does give a +10 to Spot, but that's not nearly enough to catch up with the rogue's Hide.

well darkstalker feat counters the whole cant be flanked thing from a robe of eyes. and ya, +10 spot, cloak of elvenkind greater gives +10 hide doesnt it? ya druids have a shot. but a sneaker prioritizing sneakyness will have a better hide than a druid does spot. and druids are harder to cheese out than wizards so if he got full attack sneak attacks off from the first round and had someone/something to flank his opponet then the sneaker might be able to take the druid. with good enough saves.

Rockphed
2007-10-09, 05:15 PM
A sneaker prioritizing sneakyness will have a better hide than a druid does spot. and druids are harder to cheese out than wizards so if he got full attack sneak attacks off from the first round and had someone/something to flank his opponet then the sneaker might be able to take the druid. with good enough saves.

Spot is Wisdom based, and a Wise Druid will max out his wisdom. True, the Druid won't have an easy time spotting the Sneaker, but he will have a chance(Unlike a Wizard, who will probably first notice when the knife goes between his ribs.)

Kaelik
2007-10-09, 05:27 PM
1. Requires the DM to approve of such a custom item.

Requires DM to approve getting to ECL 20. Custom items (especially just moving an effect to a different slot, which has a specific price tag.) are generally speaking assumed. If they weren't then any non caster would be in even a worse spot.


2. Give me a spell then.

The easy answer is extended Hero's Feast by a Cleric friend (or Arcane Disciple.) The more fun answer is:

Extended Elemental Body last 40 Hours (or more with +caster level, which any such Batman Wizard will have.) Gives poison immunity, immunity to crits (and thus SA) plenty of other benefits, including constant flight if the Wizard wants it (remember how you will never be able to hit said Wizard?)


3. Again, give me a spell. Said spell has to work on non-magical death effects, and be something you could reasonably keep up all the time. It's pushing it just to have foresight up all the time.

Foresight up all the time is not pushing it. Rod of Extend gives you six hours, given that you spend the vast majority of your time inside a Mansion you don't have it up then. How much time do you think a Wizard really spends in any place you could find him (not that you could ever find him.)

As for a spell, see Elemental Body. If I recall, a Death Attack requires you to SA them, without the ability to do that, you really can't do anything.


6. Unless the wizard has some way to change his/her race, it's very unlikely that the wizard would be one of those.

Do you know what Necropolitian is? I'm probably misspelling it, but it is an acquired template whereby a human/elf/whatever undergoes a ceremony to become undead. This has no LA too. So there you go, Invulnerable to mister Roguey.

namo
2007-10-09, 05:31 PM
B)It doesn't matter if the magic mouth can see you if it is set to say something when it leaves your possession. Cause it's still leaving your possession. So guess what, now the Item you are holding is screaming, Ignoring that Hide is a ridiculous skill (we all know that) you could grap the floating screaming item out of mid air even if you couldn't see the rogue holding it.

Thanks for answering this - I did think about how to word the trigger before posting. :smallbiggrin:

Veil of Undeath (SC, 8) is one of my favorite defensive buffs at high-levels. You're immune to poison, death attacks, stunning, ability damage, sneak attacks and a ton of other things.
And to be immune to SA at lower levels, you just need concealment (blur/blink), or fortification (Heart of X line of spells).

Mind Blank does not prevent Foresight or Moment of Prescience from working.

Arbitrarity
2007-10-09, 05:31 PM
See my above post, different ways to be immune to both effects are.

Scarab + Custom Item in different spot.
Scarab + spell that grants poison immunity.
Spell protects against death effects + Proof against Poison.
Spell + Spell.
Scarab + Additional effect on item.
Necropolitian/Bone Creature is immune to both.

We need Death Effect immunity? Soulfire enhancement. Armour only, so either +1 soulfire clothes, or, if that's deemed illegal, +1 soulfire twilight mithral chain shirt, in conjunction with a +1 mithral buckler of heavy fortification.

Kaelik
2007-10-09, 06:07 PM
Veil of Undeath (SC, 8) is one of my favorite defensive buffs at high-levels. You're immune to poison, death attacks, stunning, ability damage, sneak attacks and a ton of other things.
And to be immune to SA at lower levels, you just need concealment (blur/blink), or fortification (Heart of X line of spells).

I prefer an extended Elemental Body.

8th level slot, 2 hours per caster level (get up to CL 24 and you can cast it every other day.) Attuned to another plane. Immune to Paralysis, Poison, Sleep, Stunning, Crits, SA, Flanking. Darkvision 60ft, Fly speed equal to Land speed at perfect maneuverability.

Means you don't even need Overland Flight.

Arbitrarity
2007-10-09, 06:11 PM
My wizard like. He always needed more buffing spells :smallbiggrin:

*Hears the call for nerf/core*
*Recalls darkstalker/Mind Blank items*
*Snoozes*

OneWinged4ngel
2007-10-09, 06:11 PM
Cry, becuase Stealth is superior! [/fanboyisim]

Except that *second level spells* own it in the face. See: Blindsight, Tremorsense, and similar things that actually make it impossible for the sneaky little buggers to hide from you. Also, with invisibility and silence, not to mention transformations... you may actually be able to sneak better than them.

Arbitrarity
2007-10-09, 06:13 PM
Except that *second level spells* own it in the face. See: Blindsight, Tremorsense, and similar things that actually make it impossible for the sneaky little buggers to hide from you. Also, with invisibility and silence, not to mention transformations... you may actually be able to sneak better than them.

See: Darkstalker, detect magic (Countered by Nystul's magic aura, but anyways :smalltongue: ). Also, note the meta-language fanboyism tag, implying a degree of sarcasm. Though this may be misinterpreted.

Draz74
2007-10-09, 06:43 PM
Actually, it doesn't say that the Alarm spell is a trap in there--in fact it's logically incompatible with what the SRD says on that page. You may wish to read what you're linking, it actually says that the Alarm spell can be used during trap creation to set up a proximity trigger...which makes sense, since that's exactly what the Alarm spell is, a proximity sensor.

I did read what I was linking. Even if you don't consider part of a trap (the trigger) to be a trap, note what happens if you use these rules to create a Magic Trap Device consisting of only an Alarm effect. It's free. It therefore requires no XP, nor any time (beyond the time required to cast the spell). So an Alarm spell and an Alarm Magic Trap Device are, in fact, mechanically identical. I think that makes Alarm a trap.

tainsouvra
2007-10-09, 07:04 PM
I did read what I was linking. Even if you don't consider part of a trap (the trigger) to be a trap, note what happens if you use these rules to create a Magic Trap Device consisting of only an Alarm effect. It's free. It's free because it's not a trap anymore, and thus there is no trap-creation cost.

Dausuul
2007-10-09, 07:06 PM
First off, the wizard is very likely to make the Fort save. Do you know what a 20th-level character's saves look like? +6 base save, +5 from a cloak of resistance, +4 Constitution (I'm assuming Con 12 and a +6 amulet of health, which any sane 20th-level wizard is going to be wearing), means a total of +15, against black lotus extract's save DC of 20. That means the wizard only fails the save 20% of the time. He only fails both saves 4% of the time. Not exactly good odds for the rogue.

The assassin's death attack is a better bet, since you can take Ability Focus and boost your Intelligence modifier to improve the DC. With a 22 Int, say, and Ability Focus, you'd have a DC of 28--pretty tough. Even then, however, you only have a 60% chance of a kill. And if you can PrC assassin, the wizard can PrC fatespinner and get a re-roll if he fails the first time.

And then there's the question of what magical defenses the wizard has up. The idea that mind blank defeats moment of prescience is very very sketchy; moment of prescience grants the wizard "a powerful sixth sense in relation to [him]self." And even if we allow mind blank to win that contest, there are several other spells that would work. Elemental body is probably the best, given its hours/level duration and the fact that it grants immunity to both poison and crits (immunity to crits -> immunity to sneak attack -> immunity to death attack).

And you still haven't explained how you found the wizard in the first place, and how you know it isn't just an illusion.

Rockphed
2007-10-09, 07:14 PM
Knowing it is an illusion is easy, you just search it for magical traps. This is interacting with it, and as such you get a save or three.

PaladinBoy
2007-10-09, 07:40 PM
I still think the stealther can win. A lot of impressive buffs have been mentioned, but I have never been convinced that every wizard will be this paranoid. Is it so entirely unreasonable to assume that a wizard likes getting out and talking to people? Or perhaps he doesn't want to have to wait 8 hours plus prep time to deal with threats. After all, spending all these slots on defensive buffs and the like means that you'll have to rest and recharge before preparing the spells which you'll need to deal with a threat. And I'm not just talking about threats to the wizard. I'm also talking about threats to his family, hometown, kingdom, whatever.

All of this really has one point: you list defensive buffs that will be useful against a stealther, and fail to consider the fact that some wizards have reasons not to throw spells around like candy. In fact, I think the paranoid wizards that teleport everywhere and always have 2 or 3 defensive buffs up at all times are in the minority.

The stealther is going to target the wizards that don't defend themselves as well. Those wizards can use many of the defenses which you mention, but only if they see the stealther coming. And the very point of a stealther is that they don't see it coming, and there is magic and feats to back that up, even in the face of a wizard's divinations.

Against the paranoid types of wizards, the only combo I can think of that would work would be to lure the wizard into the radius of a custom item of antimagic field, followed by a surprise round UMDed scroll of forcecage, and then a UMDed scroll of dimensional lock, if the stealther won initiative. A rather expensive strategy, admittedly, and not without its flaws. The most obvious would seem to be the disintegrate spell, but it seems to me that the paranoid wizards spend most of their slots on defenses, not attack spells.

Of course, without celerity, the stealther's job becomes easier. There are enough useful spells to UMD to give the stealther plenty of options, particularly when combining one or two ranged attack spells with the Hide skill's rules for sniping. Start with UMDed scroll of dimensional anchor, proceed from there.

Kaelik
2007-10-09, 08:13 PM
I still think the stealther can win. A lot of impressive buffs have been mentioned, but I have never been convinced that every wizard will be this paranoid. Is it so entirely unreasonable to assume that a wizard likes getting out and talking to people? Or perhaps he doesn't want to have to wait 8 hours plus prep time to deal with threats. After all, spending all these slots on defensive buffs and the like means that you'll have to rest and recharge before preparing the spells which you'll need to deal with a threat. And I'm not just talking about threats to the wizard. I'm also talking about threats to his family, hometown, kingdom, whatever.

All of this really has one point: you list defensive buffs that will be useful against a stealther, and fail to consider the fact that some wizards have reasons not to throw spells around like candy. In fact, I think the paranoid wizards that teleport everywhere and always have 2 or 3 defensive buffs up at all times are in the minority.

The stealther is going to target the wizards that don't defend themselves as well. Those wizards can use many of the defenses which you mention, but only if they see the stealther coming. And the very point of a stealther is that they don't see it coming, and there is magic and feats to back that up, even in the face of a wizard's divinations.

Against the paranoid types of wizards, the only combo I can think of that would work would be to lure the wizard into the radius of a custom item of antimagic field, followed by a surprise round UMDed scroll of forcecage, and then a UMDed scroll of dimensional lock, if the stealther won initiative. A rather expensive strategy, admittedly, and not without its flaws. The most obvious would seem to be the disintegrate spell, but it seems to me that the paranoid wizards spend most of their slots on defenses, not attack spells.

Of course, without celerity, the stealther's job becomes easier. There are enough useful spells to UMD to give the stealther plenty of options, particularly when combining one or two ranged attack spells with the Hide skill's rules for sniping. Start with UMDed scroll of dimensional anchor, proceed from there.

A) Many of these buffs are not questionable but instead usual (Contingency, something that gives all day flying.)
B) Reread your post. Play a Wizard.

PaladinBoy
2007-10-09, 08:25 PM
A) Many of these buffs are not questionable but instead usual (Contingency, something that gives all day flying.)

I'm not saying that wizards don't use buffs. I'm saying that most of them don't go heavily overboard, and some will in fact not use buffs, for various reasons.

Example: elemental body. Useful buff. Will, however, make social situations relatively awkward, and depending on the magic level of the campaign setting, could cause a some problems with panicky citizens in a city.

Particularly the "teleports everywhere" wizard that's been mentioned. I really don't think every wizard will be that paranoid and antisocial.


B) Reread your post. Play a Wizard.

What's your point? I've played wizards. One was the "cast the buff in the morning, gain benefit for the rest of the day" type. But that wasn't my only wizard.

tannish2
2007-10-09, 08:49 PM
i still say the ultimate stealth character is daggerspell shaper or unseen seer. but thats just me.

can you honestly say that someone with the spells/day of an 18th level wizard and the sneaking ability (and almost the skills) of a level 20 rog wouldnt win against either one of them?? not to mention variety in saves, evasion, and of course, pearls of power+metamagic rods to make up for spells and fewer feats. and would probably have an awesome spot/listen check as well.

and who takes wizard 20? IOTSFC and mage of the arcane order are much better chocies, but those do drive your fortitude save lower even if its only a little

Chronos
2007-10-09, 09:23 PM
Against the paranoid types of wizards, the only combo I can think of that would work would be to lure the wizard into the radius of a custom item of antimagic field, followed by a surprise round UMDed scroll of forcecage, and then a UMDed scroll of dimensional lock, if the stealther won initiative. A rather expensive strategy, admittedly, and not without its flaws. The most obvious would seem to be the disintegrate spell, but it seems to me that the paranoid wizards spend most of their slots on defenses, not attack spells.Well, if you want to use an Antimagic Field, it's a bit simpler than you make it out to be. Cast it from a Ring of Spell Storing or UMD it from a scroll, out of earshot of the wizard, then sneak up to him. And forget about the forcecage etc.; just use your completely nonmagical rogue abilities then (whether it be picking his pocket or stabbing him with a poisoned blade). Note also that Antimagic Field also negates his Amulet of Health and Cloak of Resistance, so that black lotus is going to have a much better chance of working. And while the first attack will probably blow your Hide, a single sneak attack followed by mundane combat will still heavily favor the rogue.

Aquillion
2007-10-09, 09:25 PM
First of all, you have the worse definition of harmful ever. If an alarm spell or Magic Mouth is harmful then so is a contingent teleport on the wizard. So by your logic, not only would a rogue be able to disable the wizard's contingency, but if a fighter triggered a Contingency (If I am struck, teleport me home.) then the fighter would get a saving throw to prevent the wizard from teleporting. That's just silly.

Neither Alarm nor Magic Mouth is harmful, much less dangerous (the actual word used.)

Secondly, by your logic I see nothing stopping a Rogue from disabling a Fireball (must ready an action). Unlike Alarm that spell is actually dangerous.Nonsense. First, Contingency already gives a saving throw when applicable--whatever saving throws are described in the spell description of the spell you put in it. If that spell offers no save, then none is granted. Second, alarms are certainly dangerous. There are situations where they are not dangerous... but there are also situations where a Sepia Snake Sigil isn't genuinely dangerous. In many circumstances, an alarm would be the far more dangerous of the two.

And fireball lacks one of the key elements of a trap: A trigger, which the rules state all traps require. (Although, now that I think about it, Delayed Blast Fireball is in effect a spell trap with an unusual trigger condition. Aside from the debatable problem of being triggered by time and not an action, it meets all the requirements for a spell trap quite handily.)


It's free because it's not a trap anymore, and thus there is no trap-creation cost.Spell traps are free (aside from costs built into the spell) if you cast them yourself, while the costs for more complicated traps assume you can cast the spells for free yourself or have someone cast them free for you, so naturally if you subtract everything else there is no cost for just alarm. It doesn't really prove anything either way, it's just the way the rules work.

Dausuul
2007-10-09, 10:38 PM
I still think the stealther can win. A lot of impressive buffs have been mentioned, but I have never been convinced that every wizard will be this paranoid. Is it so entirely unreasonable to assume that a wizard likes getting out and talking to people?

So, you're saying that a 20th-level rogue can kill a wizard who doesn't defend himself adequately? Sure. So what? A 20th-level anybody can kill anybody who doesn't defend himself adequately. A samurai could kill the wizard under those conditions.

The topic of this thread was what a wizard can do if assassins are a concern. And the answer is that a wizard can, if he wishes, make himself pretty much invulnerable to non-arcane assassins, and can even conduct his daily business while remaining effectively invulnerable, albeit at a cost of a number of spell slots and some personal inconvenience. If the wizard chooses not to do so, well, then, that's the wizard's choice, not the assassin's. The point is that the rogue cannot kill the wizard unless the wizard lets it happen.


I'm not saying that wizards don't use buffs. I'm saying that most of them don't go heavily overboard, and some will in fact not use buffs, for various reasons.

Example: elemental body. Useful buff. Will, however, make social situations relatively awkward, and depending on the magic level of the campaign setting, could cause a some problems with panicky citizens in a city.

Particularly the "teleports everywhere" wizard that's been mentioned. I really don't think every wizard will be that paranoid and antisocial.

Elemental body need not cut into the wizard's social life unduly. A simple hat of disguise and all's taken care of as far as appearances go. Actual physical contact might be a touch unsettling, but you can't have everything.

As for teleporting everywhere--man, if I were a wizard, I'd teleport whether I was worried about assassins or not! Really, which mode of transport would you prefer? Riding a smelly, uncomfortable, temperamental animal that tops out at thirty miles an hour? Trudging about on foot? Or speaking a few words and popping away to wherever you want to be?

And one other thing that just occurred to me... if a wizard doesn't want to live within rings of magical defenses but also doesn't want to risk being murdered, the solution is quite simple. Anonymity. All it takes is a daily casting of mind blank and a hat of disguise, and you can settle down to a comfortable life in some obscure village where no assassin will ever find you. Heck, you could probably even dispense with the hat; it's highly unlikely that a handful of uneducated peasants will recognize you for who you really are. And when need calls on you to wield your power, why, then you can gird yourself about with all your arcane might and teleport off to do what must be done.

Skjaldbakka
2007-10-09, 11:00 PM
A few more of my two bits on the subject:

No assassin worth his fee is non-arcane. Use Magic Device is a class skill for rogues. An assassin with a good amount of (cross-class) knowledge: arcana will know what types of spells are most effective in thwarting him, and plan accordingly. And this is just the type of assassin that one would hire to kill a wizard.

Seperate point.
Using teleport as your sole means of transportation substantially limits the number of things you can accomplish in one day, as teleport is a reasonably high level spell. A wizard that wants to be prepared for every contingency will sometimes have to walk across the street, as opposed to teleporting there.

tannish2
2007-10-09, 11:06 PM
true, but a rog with a constant mind blank item would be BETTER because a simple true sight spell (or mid level spot check, or gem of true sight) wouldnt get through his +23 disguise check +2 for masterwork tools. or theres always the idea to cast scrying spells on the book. then theres wish/miracle.

Kaelik
2007-10-09, 11:14 PM
Particularly the "teleports everywhere" wizard that's been mentioned. I really don't think every wizard will be that paranoid and antisocial.

Why on Earth would you walk when you could teleport? Why would you walk through the streets ever? Have you ever enjoyed walking through crowded streets? Do you enjoy making conversation with total strangers? Do you think anyone would in a D&D setting?


What's your point? I've played wizards. One was the "cast the buff in the morning, gain benefit for the rest of the day" type. But that wasn't my only wizard.

Actually, my point was that your strategy consists of:

1)UMD Antimagic Field
2)UMD Forcecage
or alternatively
1)UMD Dimensional Anchor
2)UMD something else

At this point just play a Wizard. Higher a level 4 Fighter for a day. Antimagic Field and Forcecage, but with the Fighter inside. Cheaper then being a rogue and UMDing too.

For an example of actually using UMD the way a rogue should (instead of as Wizard Lite) look at Chronoses post.


Nonsense. First, Contingency already gives a saving throw when applicable--whatever saving throws are described in the spell description of the spell you put in it. If that spell offers no save, then none is granted. Second, alarms are certainly dangerous. There are situations where they are not dangerous... but there are also situations where a Sepia Snake Sigil isn't genuinely dangerous. In many circumstances, an alarm would be the far more dangerous of the two.

And fireball lacks one of the key elements of a trap: A trigger, which the rules state all traps require. (Although, now that I think about it, Delayed Blast Fireball is in effect a spell trap with an unusual trigger condition. Aside from the debatable problem of being triggered by time and not an action, it meets all the requirements for a spell trap quite handily.)

A) But it says that unless it says otherwise we must assume that it has all those things. No where does it say that Contingent Teleport doesn't have a saving throw, nor does it say that it doesn't have an attack role. What's the to hit of a Contingency anyway? I mean, it must have one because, as a "magical trap" that does not specify not having an attack role, it must hit the AC of everyone within hundreds of miles in order for it to activate. (Or maybe the Wizard only teleports to those whose AC are hit?)
B)You really are arguing that Contingency/Spell Sequencer/Clone and Delayed Blast Fireball are "Magical Traps" and can all be disabled by a Rogue 20 with Dex 12 50% of the time? 50% of the time a Rogue can reach into a Wizards brain and make him forget spells?

Also of import. How do you find the Wizard? That's important.

And before one more person says "Not all Wizards cast buff spells. Not all Wizards actually use their spells. Some of them just walk around town until they get stabbed."

The thread title is "How do Wizards deal with Stealth skills?" We don't care what happens to the Wizards who don't deal with stealth skills and just end up dieing. We only care about Wizards who do deal with stealth skills. Just like the thread "How do Wizards deal with Undead?" We don't care about the ones that stand behind the fighter, we care about the ones that cast Control Undead.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-10, 12:41 AM
Well, if you want to use an Antimagic Field, it's a bit simpler than you make it out to be. Cast it from a Ring of Spell Storing or UMD it from a scroll, out of earshot of the wizard, then sneak up to him. And forget about the forcecage etc.; just use your completely nonmagical rogue abilities then (whether it be picking his pocket or stabbing him with a poisoned blade). Note also that Antimagic Field also negates his Amulet of Health and Cloak of Resistance, so that black lotus is going to have a much better chance of working. And while the first attack will probably blow your Hide, a single sneak attack followed by mundane combat will still heavily favor the rogue.

I like this.

So should the thread now become, "Full caster's answer to a stealther who centered an antimagic field on herself using UMD before attacking"? :smallbiggrin:

Kaelik
2007-10-10, 01:28 AM
I like this.

So should the thread now become, "Full caster's answer to a stealther who centered an antimagic field on herself using UMD before attacking"? :smallbiggrin:

Yes, the answer is a question.

How does a Stealther (or as you can see from Full Caster vs Full Caster, anyone) find the Wizard?

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-10, 02:09 AM
Yes, the answer is a question.

How does a Stealther (or as you can see from Full Caster vs Full Caster, anyone) find the Wizard?

Well, that depends. If the caster is in absolute, hermetical, ultra-paranoid seclusion, probably the stealther doesn't. Then again, if the caster is in absolute, hermetical, ultra-paranoid seclusion, who gives a bloody d*mn about him? He's irrelevant. He's off the map. He may as well not exist, for all the impact he has on anything important happening anywhere. Why would anyone bother to try to have him offed in the first place?

If the caster is actually joining the rest of us in the world, there are many ways, some of them perfectly mundane, to track the mark down given sufficient time.

Kaelik
2007-10-10, 02:25 AM
Well, that depends. If the caster is in absolute, hermetical, ultra-paranoid seclusion, probably the stealther doesn't. Then again, if the caster is in absolute, hermetical, ultra-paranoid seclusion, who gives a bloody d*mn about him? He's irrelevant. He's off the map. He may as well not exist, for all the impact he has on anything important happening anywhere. Why would anyone bother to try to have him offed in the first place?

If the caster is actually joining the rest of us in the world, there are many ways, some of them perfectly mundane, to track the mark down given sufficient time.

See my example of what Stag does in Caster versus Caster. That alone allows him to do several important things a day, and never ever be found. Of course the bottom line is what do you want this guy to do. Not every Wizard needs to take over the world. A level 20 Wizard is probably pretty interested in magic. It makes sense that he spends most of his time studying alone or going to weird obscure places rather then following any predictable pattern.

namo
2007-10-10, 02:40 AM
So should the thread now become, "Full caster's answer to a stealther who centered an antimagic field on herself using UMD before attacking"? :smallbiggrin:

Conjuration spells. Summoning monsters with high SR (to resist the AMF), Calling creatures (generally costs XP) or instantaneous Creation (Orbs, Walls).
You could try Disjunction but it's a bit risky.
If you're a Necromancer, your undead minions (at least the corporeal ones) still function in an AMF.

Invoke Magic (in Lords of Madness) is a 9th level spell that allows to cast one spell in an AMF.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-10, 02:43 AM
See my example of what Stag does in Caster versus Caster. That alone allows him to do several important things a day, and never ever be found. Of course the bottom line is what do you want this guy to do. Not every Wizard needs to take over the world. A level 20 Wizard is probably pretty interested in magic. It makes sense that he spends most of his time studying alone or going to weird obscure places rather then following any predictable pattern.

Generally, people who are targeted for assassination become targeted because their being alive somehow has a meaningful impact on someone else. If all you do is hide out and occasionally do random, unconnected (and therefore unpredictable) things, you're probably not having a major impact on anything anyone's likely to care about. Maybe you're doing something somewhere, perhaps related to your research(?), that you personally find very important, but it just doesn't strike me as plausible that you could maintain that level of seclusion and still have your fingers in anything anyone is going to care enough about to want you dead.

Hiding out doesn't impress me. You don't need a wizard to hide out somewhere -- anyone with a custom mind blank item can do it, and a rogue with actual ranks in skills like disguise can do it better than the wizard could (bear in mind, the wizard pretending to be a beggar in some obscure village like you suggested needs to roll against his nonexistent disguise skill to pull that off -- if [when] he fails, he'll attract some level of suspicion, probably without ever realizing it [since he lacks in both sense motive and spot]).

Hell, Complete Adventurer ninjas get an anti-divination protection as a class ability, so they can hide out effectively without needing a spell or a custom item. So what?

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-10, 02:56 AM
Conjuration spells. Summoning monsters with high SR (to resist the AMF), Calling creatures (generally costs XP) or instantaneous Creation (Orbs, Walls).
You could try Disjunction but it's a bit risky.
If you're a Necromancer, your undead minions (at least the corporeal ones) still function in an AMF.

Invoke Magic (in Lords of Madness) is a 9th level spell that allows to cast one spell in an AMF.

But the wizard won't have a chance to do any of that yet because foresight isn't working (AMF), the wizard is flatfooted and can't cast celerity (and couldn't anyway -- AMF), and since it's the surprise round and the wizard is surprised, the wizard can't act.

Now, if the wizard survives the surprise round, we roll initiative. If the rogue wins (likely), it's full attack sneak attack time, and that should be the end of this encounter. If the wizard wins, he has a problem. Probably his best move is to get out of the AMF as quickly as possible, but moving out would provoke an attack of opportunity, and he probably doesn't have the tumble ranks to ignore that. Furthermore, if our rogue was really smart, she picked up the Staggering Strike feat, meaning the wizard currently can either take a move action or a standard action ... but not both.

We'll take your idea with invoke magic. Okay, as a swift action, the wizard casts invoke magic and can now cast one spell of 5th or lower level despite the AMF. What will he cast?

Kaelik
2007-10-10, 02:56 AM
Generally, people who are targeted for assassination become targeted because their being alive somehow has a meaningful impact on someone else. If all you do is hide out and occasionally do random, unconnected (and therefore unpredictable) things, you're probably not having a major impact on anything anyone's likely to care about. Maybe you're doing something somewhere, perhaps related to your research(?), that you personally find very important, but it just doesn't strike me as plausible that you could maintain that level of seclusion and still have your fingers in anything anyone is going to care enough about to want you dead.

What do you want from the guy? He's already trying to become immortal/The Most Powerful Man Alive. Why is that not enough? What exactly do you picture lvl 20 Wizards doing with their time? They are already more powerful then kingdoms. For all you know that one hour a day could be Greater Teleporting into the Kings chamber to re-dominate him.

The honest facts are that whatever you think is "important" actually isn't. A lvl 20 Wizard smoking the hash is more important then a "King's Decision" because if the world actually operated like D&D, 90% of the world would be completely irrelevant to the 10% that did, except in order to spawn more.

Food is handled by Clerics.
Items are handled by Wizards.
Monsters get farmed to death all the time.
If a King has more then 100,000gp value in one place a Wizard teleports in and removes it.
Commoners/Aristocrats/low level anything exist for the sole purpose of perpetuating their own lives until they occasionally create someone who will become a high level Wizard/Cleric.
Druids live in the Forest, protecting it from random monsters because no one else cares.


Hiding out doesn't impress me. You don't need a wizard to hide out somewhere -- anyone with a custom mind blank item can do it, and a rogue with actual ranks in skills like disguise can do it better than the wizard could (bear in mind, the wizard pretending to be a beggar in some obscure village like you suggested needs to roll against his nonexistent disguise skill to pull that off -- if [when] he fails, he'll attract some level of suspicion, probably without ever realizing it [since he lacks in both sense motive and spot]).

Because no one with an Int 34 who specializes in hiding out would ever use the spell "Disguise Self."

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-10, 03:34 AM
What do you want from the guy? He's already trying to become immortal/The Most Powerful Man Alive. Why is that not enough? What exactly do you picture lvl 20 Wizards doing with their time? They are already more powerful then kingdoms. For all you know that one hour a day could be Greater Teleporting into the Kings chamber to re-dominate him.

That won't work in any competently put-together game because obviously, if the king is a king in a world with level 20 wizards, he's a king in a world with level 20 wizards because:

A. Some of the best of them work for him.
B. He's one of them.
C. His castle is riddled with magical defenses that make teleporting into it to do anything impossible.
D. Any combination of the above.
E. Some other reason. But there must be a reason, and it must make sense and explain why Munchkin PC the level 20 wizard can't arbitrarily overturn kingdoms just because he feels like it.


The honest facts are that whatever you think is "important" actually isn't.

No, the honest facts are that whatever the GM thinks is important actually is, and whatever you think is important only makes any difference at all if you happen to be that GM.


Because no one with an Int 34 who specializes in hiding out would ever use the spell "Disguise Self."

Of course. A spell that bestows as much disguise skill upon you as a level 7 rogue could achieve (level 5 with masterwork tools) -- that'll take care of it for sure.

Let's see ... this is more than "minor details only" but less than being a different gender, age or race, so no modifier to difficulty. Assuming an average Charisma of 10, the wizard attempts the check with a flat +10, for a result of anywhere from 11-30 each time the disguise is created. Now since the wizard's apparently using this trick long-term, we have to assume that sometimes, the check result will in fact be as low as 11. In order for this to work reliably 100 percent of the time, and therefore be useful long-term, it must be possible for it to "pass" even with the worst check result.

So ... an 11. Check once per hour, +1 bonus for the average modifier for a crowd ...

I ... I think they can beat it, sooner or later.

Edit: Oops, almost forgot -- it's also the case that every single individual who happens to interact with you physically (even just bumping into you by accident) is entitled to a Will save to completely see right through the spell altogether. That's just in addition to the fact that a crowd would eventually spot the fake anyway, although it might take days before that finally happened.

namo
2007-10-10, 07:20 AM
But the wizard won't have a chance to do any of that yet because foresight isn't working (AMF), the wizard is flatfooted and can't cast celerity (and couldn't anyway -- AMF), and since it's the surprise round and the wizard is surprised, the wizard can't act.
It's arguable whether Foresight should give the wizard a warning before the AMF comes up, but ok, let's assume it does not.


Now, if the wizard survives the surprise round, we roll initiative. If the rogue wins (likely), it's full attack sneak attack time, and that should be the end of this encounter. If the wizard wins, he has a problem. Probably his best move is to get out of the AMF as quickly as possible, but moving out would provoke an attack of opportunity, and he probably doesn't have the tumble ranks to ignore that. Furthermore, if our rogue was really smart, she picked up the Staggering Strike feat, meaning the wizard currently can either take a move action or a standard action ... but not both.
Or he can just retreat and fly away (Flight of the Dragon for instance, or a Balor shape). The rogue is in an AMF and can't follow.

Even with a full attack, the rogue doesn't deal that much damage in an AMF. Of course, the wizard doesn't have a lot of HPs either.


We'll take your idea with invoke magic. Okay, as a swift action, the wizard casts invoke magic and can now cast one spell of 5th or lower level despite the AMF. What will he cast?

The basic answer is Teleport. He's currently at a disadvantage, so retreat and regroup.
I'm sure there are some other interesting spells (Resilient Sphere or a Wall to block the AMF, or heck, a save-or-die) if the wizard wants to stay and fight.

So it's not impossible for the rogue to win, but the odds are not that good.

edit: FYI, Polymorph/Shapechange also provide a bonus to Disguise (you can even stack them by RAW, though it's cheesy and doesn't make any sense). If he cares about it, he can buy the MW kit of Disguise and take 10, so that's 22 minimum, without illusion.

Dausuul
2007-10-10, 07:38 AM
As for what a wizard can do while hiding out... well, let's try the planar binding line.

1. Twink out your Charisma.
2. Teleport to some random location (use a different one each day).
3. Cast magic circle against evil, dimensional anchor, all that jazz.
4. Cast greater planar binding and summon a marilith. (You could go for a pit fiend here, but mariliths are better because what you're doing is going to cheese off whatever you summon, and pit fiends are a lot more likely to work together to get revenge.)
5. Order the marilith to attack target X on date Y, where date Y is within 20 days, and to take no action against you until her task is complete and she's returned to the Abyss. If you win the Charisma check, she has to do what you told her. If you lose, oh well; send her back to the Abyss (you're not going to keep her bound long-term, since that would force you to return to this spot and you never want to do this in the same location twice). If you roll a 1, she breaks free and you proceed to annihilate her, since you're a 20th-level wizard and fully prepared for this fight.
6. Repeat daily until date Y arrives.

On date Y, a whole swarm of mariliths pours in on target X and beats the snot out of it.

Kaelik
2007-10-10, 08:19 AM
That won't work in any competently put-together game because obviously, if the king is a king in a world with level 20 wizards, he's a king in a world with level 20 wizards because:

A. Some of the best of them work for him.
B. He's one of them.
C. His castle is riddled with magical defenses that make teleporting into it to do anything impossible.
D. Any combination of the above.
E. Some other reason. But there must be a reason, and it must make sense and explain why Munchkin PC the level 20 wizard can't arbitrarily overturn kingdoms just because he feels like it.

A. Some of the dominate him on a regular basis.
B. He's making himself vulnerable. By letting people know where he is any other lvl 20 Wizard can kill him.
C. Have you read the spells that "block" Teleport? Nothing works. You still get destroyed, The only hope is constant anticipate teleport, and that only helps if you are lvl 20 Wizard too. And you still get destroyed because they know where you live and have planned this out.
D. Meh
E. Or maybe he can, but he doesn't because it's not worth his time.
Or F. lvl 20 Wizards don't bother him because he doesn't control anything important and they are entirely self sufficient.


No, the honest facts are that whatever the GM thinks is important actually is, and whatever you think is important only makes any difference at all if you happen to be that GM.

Just because the DM says a tree is really important doesn't mean that anything will happen when you cut it down. Why is a kingdom important? They aren't concentrations of real power or important items. They are concentrations of boring stuff you don't want (four thousand bushels of hay.)


Of course. A spell that bestows as much disguise skill upon you as a level 7 rogue could achieve (level 5 with masterwork tools) -- that'll take care of it for sure.

Let's see ... this is more than "minor details only" but less than being a different gender, age or race, so no modifier to difficulty. Assuming an average Charisma of 10, the wizard attempts the check with a flat +10, for a result of anywhere from 11-30 each time the disguise is created. Now since the wizard's apparently using this trick long-term, we have to assume that sometimes, the check result will in fact be as low as 11. In order for this to work reliably 100 percent of the time, and therefore be useful long-term, it must be possible for it to "pass" even with the worst check result.

So ... an 11. Check once per hour, +1 bonus for the average modifier for a crowd ...

I ... I think they can beat it, sooner or later.

Edit: Oops, almost forgot -- it's also the case that every single individual who happens to interact with you physically (even just bumping into you by accident) is entitled to a Will save to completely see right through the spell altogether. That's just in addition to the fact that a crowd would eventually spot the fake anyway, although it might take days before that finally happened.

A) Alter Self (or Alter Self and Disguise Self)
B) Cross class skills do exist, this is especially relevant with your tumble post, since cross class ranks in tumble are a common purchase that give a wizard 20 the ability to tumble out of all AoOs.
C) How many people often bump into beggars? Because this is a lvl 20 Wizard vs level one Commoners. They need a 20.

TranquilRage
2007-10-10, 10:20 AM
Cast AMF on an arrow, coat it in something really nasty and snipe the dress wearing pansy.

webgem
2007-10-10, 11:41 AM
I don't think you can cast AMF on an arrow, I think it's personal. As far as the hiding out goes. I think it is a completely valid option. Nobody said specifically that it wasn't. Say the character decides to hide out and not be found after learning somebody was coming to kill him. If he's an NPC he can have had any number of ways of doing this. So lets say an assassin's goal is to kill this wizard, the wizard finds out, plane shifts and hides someplace with an invisible undetectable castle or whatever. Maybe he's a bit of a coward, but it is an answer. Post question fulfilled. I don't think anyone can disagree that this is one of many valid options. A little strange, but possible. I think it might just be nice to move on to other options. Not that a lot haven't been covered, but the hide one is a workable option. Now if the guy teleports into the king's hideout to dominate everyday, options pop up. There has to be some way the assassin can find out that this is happening, I think. Not very easy, but he is also a 20th level character with a lot of time on his hands probably. But mainly I think this thread is of use for characters who A: are caster pcs and probably not hiding away, probably working towards epic. B: 20th level assassins trying to kill these pcs. C: A caster NPC that has some, albeit small chance of being detected, and probably is being targeted by another NPC or PC . D: A PC who is trying to kill the caster nPC. Anyway thats what I think the point is, but maybe not.

Shinkoro
2007-10-10, 12:21 PM
A few things.


A wizard is magically more powerful then a king perhaps, but thats about it. A king has alot more financial power, a whole country pays taxes to the crown. 100,000gp is a joke for a kings coffer. Think 100's of thousands of people who pay taxes to the crown consistently.


A king controls the land. Sure a wizard can build his fortress on the Elemental Plane of Fire. But, many of those other 20th level classes need land and the king controls it. They in turn are pledged to the king. Meaning when the king rallies people for something, they show up.


When push comes to shove a king can rally a army of high level fighters, paladins, like minded people and masses of mid to low levels for various reasons. A wizard cannot defeat a army, although he of course can run from one.


If history is of any value. For many years church and king had very close associations. In D&D context a king would most likely have high level clerics working with him to attain like minded goals.


Dominating a king is not likely. A king will have many magical defenses. A king has wizards in his employ, even mid level ones can put forth a combined magical defense that will be formidable. Not to mention clerical magic that the king will have at his disposal. A wizard defends himself. A king has many who defend him in all ways. Magical, personal, etc.


A wizard will either summon spell components, wish for them, gather them himself, have someone get them for him or more likely a combination of all the aforementioned. No one really touches on it, but gathering components takes quite abit of effort and time for all them powerful spells.


A 20th level wizard who no one has heard of? How did he even get to 20th level? Soloed everything? Guess he never traded or bought anything. Guess hes a orphan, has no children or love ones.


The idea of a 20th level character in total seclusion is absurd, unless hes been alive so long he has outlived all who know him. And, even then characters who live thousands of years always have legends about why they have been alive so long. Someone, at some point will see you doing something somewhere. And, you know they will mention it.


A 20th level character didn't get to 20 killing ducks and chickens in a dark cave. I mean for what it takes to get to 20 means that character has done some pretty impressive things. And, it probably means people have been saved by him, powerful beast vanquished by him and other equally fantastic things done by him.


People who do these things are usually far from anonymous or low key. You may try to be in seclusion, you may have no interest in dealing with other people. But, at 20th level others have a interest in you.


What does a 20th level wizard do with his time? Sometimes he/ she aligns their self with a king for various purposes. Sometimes those purposes are not just self serving. Sometimes a 20th level wizard goes on epic scale adventures. Sometimes he helps kids find lost cats. Sometimes he kicks rabbits. Sometimes he tortures the innocent. Many 20th level wizards do a lot more then work on magic in total seclusion.


Finally, no character can mount a defense that cannot be overcome. Anything one man does, another man can undo. Its a time tested rule. Its why encryption keeps escalating, and people claim it cant be busted and yet it always is.

Kaelik
2007-10-10, 01:50 PM
A wizard is magically more powerful then a king perhaps, but thats about it. A king has alot more financial power, a whole country pays taxes to the crown. 100,000gp is a joke for a kings coffer. Think 100's of thousands of people who pay taxes to the crown consistently.

Um? Okay, doesn't matter. Wizard has infinite money through Planar Binding and Wish. Wizard can take all the kings wealth without even trying if he wants it. Money is not going to help if you don't have any power. And if you try to buy power you will find that whoever you payed to protect your money actually is the real owner of the money.

Also, you should probably take a better look at the feudal system, the king can't manage all that money, so most of his wealth exists only in the fact that other people might choose to obey him.


A king controls the land. Sure a wizard can build his fortress on the Elemental Plane of Fire. But, many of those other 20th level classes need land and the king controls it. They in turn are pledged to the king. Meaning when the king rallies people for something, they show up.

Or they can kill the King. Or they can ask the Wizard for it. Or, no one needs land because the only purpose of land is economical reasons. Commoners, Experts, and Aristocrats operate in one economy. Everyone else operates in a far superior, infinite, economy where money is created from nothing on a daily basis.


When push comes to shove a king can rally a army of high level fighters, paladins, like minded people and masses of mid to low levels for various reasons. A wizard cannot defeat a army, although he of course can run from one.

Actually, a Wizard can kill a Mundane army no problem. Armies aren't very good at staying hidden, and aren't good at finding things. Wizard Teleports above their heads Invisible with something that protects him from ranged attacks. Then he starts with Cloudkill, to kill off all the low levels, and then he Disintegrates all level 10ish people left (assuming they even survive the Cloudkill.)


If history is of any value. For many years church and king had very close associations. In D&D context a king would most likely have high level clerics working with him to attain like minded goals.

Right, When the King had power the church used him, and in return made sure he maintained power. Mutually beneficial relationships make no sense when one side has all the power, in this case the church that can call down Miracles all the time versus the guy with lots of money he's not going to keep.


Dominating a king is not likely. A king will have many magical defenses. A king has wizards in his employ, even mid level ones can put forth a combined magical defense that will be formidable. Not to mention clerical magic that the king will have at his disposal. A wizard defends himself. A king has many who defend him in all ways. Magical, personal, etc.

What kind of Wizards does he have? Anything lower then ten is going to be no help against a lvl 20. And anything above 12 will realize that they have nothing to gain from helping the King and everything to gain from dominating the King and using his Kingdom to propel themselves to level 20.


A wizard will either summon spell components, wish for them, gather them himself, have someone get them for him or more likely a combination of all the aforementioned. No one really touches on it, but gathering components takes quite abit of effort and time for all them powerful spells.

Thanks to several spells, a Wizard actually has a limitless supply of money at no cost, as such, he doesn't really care.


A 20th level wizard who no one has heard of? How did he even get to 20th level? Soloed everything? Guess he never traded or bought anything. Guess hes a orphan, has no children or love ones.

I didn't say no one has heard of him. It's not like it takes a super genius to change your name, even though in this case it wouldn't matter if it did since he is a super genius.


The idea of a 20th level character in total seclusion is absurd, unless hes been alive so long he has outlived all who know him. And, even then characters who live thousands of years always have legends about why they have been alive so long. Someone, at some point will see you doing something somewhere. And, you know they will mention it.

Okay, they see you doing something, not that it changes anything since you leave ten minutes later.

Messenger:Lord, Goblins are invading, and there are unconfirmed reports of a man doing magic at a magic site.
King:Okay, hire some level 3 Adventurers to deal with the Orcs. Then kill yourself Mr. Obvious.


A 20th level character didn't get to 20 killing ducks and chickens in a dark cave. I mean for what it takes to get to 20 means that character has done some pretty impressive things. And, it probably means people have been saved by him, powerful beast vanquished by him and other equally fantastic things done by him.

You know, lots of powerful monsters are far away from people, mostly because they kill the people close to them. If 10 years later someone finds out the Great Swamp Beast was killed it doesn't really mean anything for the Wizard (or adventuring party) who killed him.


People who do these things are usually far from anonymous or low key. You may try to be in seclusion, you may have no interest in dealing with other people. But, at 20th level others have a interest in you.

But with a simple Mindblank all that interest goes away. Besides, after you kill the first five level 3s that show up, they might realize you want some privacy.


What does a 20th level wizard do with his time? Sometimes he/ she aligns their self with a king for various purposes. Sometimes those purposes are not just self serving. Sometimes a 20th level wizard goes on epic scale adventures. Sometimes he helps kids find lost cats. Sometimes he kicks rabbits. Sometimes he tortures the innocent. Many 20th level wizards do a lot more then work on magic in total seclusion.

???Why? What would motivate a lvl 20 Wizard to do any of those things?


Finally, no character can mount a defense that cannot be overcome. Anything one man does, another man can undo. Its a time tested rule. Its why encryption keeps escalating, and people claim it cant be busted and yet it always is.

Actually, a Wizard can. That's kind of the point. A wizard can disappear to the Universe and no one will ever be able to find him or hurt him.

The biggest problem with this whole discussion is that there are three ways that D&D could actually work.

1)There are no Kings. The Farmers live their meager lives trying to survive, occasionally some family is wiped out by gnolls while the son is away and he becomes an adventurer. Cities manufacture things that they trade to farmers for food. They even have an occasional useful building or two. (The Mage Academy that no one else is ever allowed into.) Meanwhile future important people fight monsters and level up occasionally going to a city to get things. Eventually they become important.

Important people go about doing whatever they want, these are the people with access to creating infinite wealth, the Wizard, the Cleric, and maybe their old friends from adventuring days who they occasionally give stuff to.

2)There are Kings. Everything is exactly the same as before, but the important people decide to let "Kings" keep the Adventurer Creation Machine running in good condition. The "Kings" are just managers, important people are the board of directors.

3)The Important People are Kings. (Kelban Blackstaff? That Lady in Silverymoon? Anyone else in FR?) Important people just rule over lots of unimportant people on the side. Could be because they want to make life better for everyone, could be because they enjoy bossing people around. There's still a place for the less social important people (Halaster? Elminster?) They do what they want, and occasionally deal with other important people when they have to. At this point, the world is a chess game, so all the little commoners are pawns, and the level 10 characters are Knights (Rogues), Bishops (Fighters), Rooks (Clerics), and Queens (Wizards). Every once in a while a pawn might become something important.

Note that this analogy works perfectly with the Kings, they can't really do anything, better then a pawn sure, but not better then any other piece. Their importance is only a convention that the players (important lvl 15 plus characters) agree to follow. Of course at any moment someone could start playing different game, and then they don't care that Kelban Blackstaff runs Waterdeep, they only care how well he slings spells. That's also why "Kings" treat their lives separately. They don't use their magic much in defense of their kingdom, and they do use it on the side to pursue their own goals.

Any way you boil it down, there are two separate spheres of existence. The one that some people think matters, and the one that actually does.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-10, 02:56 PM
Um? Okay, doesn't matter. Wizard has infinite money through Planar Binding and Wish. Wizard can take all the kings wealth without even trying if he wants it.

The first thing a competent GM does is either base the whole game on the idea that wizards can do this and therefore actually run everything (and probably therefore are the kings) ...

Or say "no" to the PC who tries to do what you just described.

GMs > wizards

Kaelik
2007-10-10, 03:09 PM
The first thing a competent GM does is either base the whole game on the idea that wizards can do this and therefore actually run everything (and probably therefore are the kings) ...

Or say "no" to the PC who tries to do what you just described.

GMs > wizards

You might notice that I addressed exactly that issue very far below.

Chronos
2007-10-10, 04:16 PM
A level 20 Wizard is probably pretty interested in magic. It makes sense that he spends most of his time studying alone or going to weird obscure places rather then following any predictable pattern.OK, that makes things easy. The rogue creates a weird, obscure situation in some place, which piques the wizard's curiousity enough to go investigate it.

As for the whole business of "Obviously any wizard powerful enough to be of any use at all to the king is going to dominate him instead", you might want to consider the possibility that not every wizard is Munchkin Neutral. Some actually think that having a king isn't so bad, or that weakening the king risks throwing innocent people's lives into turmoil, or like having power but don't like dealing with beaurocracy, so let the king alone to handle that himself, or...

Garatolla
2007-10-10, 06:17 PM
Had a funny idea with regards to the having alarm spells set up, so had to share

1:Rogue gets himself some edumacation, and learns about alarm spells
2:Rogue gets himself a wand/scrolls/insert appropriate magical gubbins here of expeditious retreat.
3:Rogue discerns the location of an alarm spell closest to the nearest available exit to the mages megafortress of doom (not sure how they go about that offhand, but I'm sure it can be done)
4:Rogue then waits till evening, and sets off the alarm spell, which as the description, either makes a racket, or makes a mental beep for the caster, both of which are going to wake him from sleeping, assuming he's not so paranoid he doesn't sleep anymore, like most mages presented in this thread lol.
5:Use ER item to get out of there fast
6:Rinse and repeat over a period of months until the lack of sleep, or constant noise drives wizard insane.
7:???
8:Profit

Note: I'm sure there's dozens of ways to catch the rogue and other inconsistencies, but the idea of some good old fashioned knock n run,the bane of old men everywhere rt, being the undoing of a wizard is too funny to pass up :smallbiggrin:

tainsouvra
2007-10-10, 07:48 PM
Ring the doorbell and run...that's funny.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-10, 08:15 PM
Darkstalker and good hide/move silently scores say you don't even need to run away. Just laugh (inwardly) as the wizard can't find you, then repeat ad infininum. As an added bonus, this has actual tactical merit, because a wizard who's unable to accomplish eight hours of uninterrupted rest cannot memorize any new spells the next day.

Of course, the wizard will have inexplicably anticipated just this very thing happening just that very night and will therefore have kept (insert some relevant spell here) in reserve just in case. Because not only can wizards cast spells, but they also always know exactly what's going to happen to them and when.

Shinkoro
2007-10-10, 08:26 PM
Originally Posted by Kaelik
Um? Okay, doesn't matter. Wizard has infinite money through Planar Binding and Wish. Wizard can take all the kings wealth without even trying if he wants it. Money is not going to help if you don't have any power. And if you try to buy power you will find that whoever you payed to protect your money actually is the real owner of the money.


Also, you should probably take a better look at the feudal system, the king can't manage all that money, so most of his wealth exists only in the fact that other people might choose to obey him.


What DM actually lets that unlimited summon/ wish cheese fly? I suppose some do. I suppose some gaming groups that play 20th level character gather often to sit around and let the wizard summon/ wish through the whole night. Sounds fun. While by the RAW many things are possible, some things are not really fun or for that matter reasonable.


A king can't directly manage all that money, but a wizard can? In fact while a king does not direct all of the kingdoms money every second. He employs people, they obey because of consequences. Its a world dynamic.


Sure anyone can do anything in this world. But, many things have penalties and consequences that make acting in certain ways not deemed acceptable not worth it to most people. I.E. Murder, thievery, etc. This dynamic is even present in the D&D game.



Originally Posted by Kaelik
Or they can kill the King. Or they can ask the Wizard for it. Or, no one needs land because the only purpose of land is economical reasons. Commoners, Experts, and Aristocrats operate in one economy. Everyone else operates in a far superior, infinite, economy where money is created from nothing on a daily basis.


I'm sorry but killing the king is not as easy as you make it out to be.

Your right land has economical value. Most of D&D is based on a economical system. Acquiring land, money, magical items are all forms of economical value. Which characters strive to attain to increase their personal power. The idea that money and magic have value, but land does not, is not very feasible. Especially considering in your world so much money and probably magic is fabricated through wishes, thus devaluing it.

What value does money have in a system when the economy is flooded with money? In your system money becomes worthless. Why would a wizard summon hordes of money if not to apply it somehow? When all those 20th level wizards flood the world with money. A long sword will cost 10, 000gp. The fact that D&D long swords don't cost so much implies that wizards indeed don't flood the economy with tons of summoned/ wish money.



Originally Posted by Kaelik
Actually, a Wizard can kill a Mundane army no problem. Armies aren't very good at staying hidden, and aren't good at finding things. Wizard Teleports above their heads Invisible with something that protects him from ranged attacks. Then he starts with Cloudkill, to kill off all the low levels, and then he Disintegrates all level 10ish people left (assuming they even survive the Cloudkill.)


And, what of those other 7th-20th level characters in the kings army? I suppose they just lay down and die? And a 300ft cloud moving 10ft a round does not vanquish even a army of low level characters. They move out the way perhaps? Or I suppose they just stand in its path and die like fools? Let me guess, he summons a few clouds?



Originally Posted by Kaelik
Right, When the King had power the church used him, and in return made sure he maintained power. Mutually beneficial relationships make no sense when one side has all the power, in this case the church that can call down Miracles all the time versus the guy with lots of money he's not going to keep.

Once again, some relationships are not all about serving the self interest of a few, but a greater good. And, once again in your world money has been devalued because wizards are summoning/ wish it to worthlessness. Lets say that was not a issue, the dynamic changes then.



Originally Posted by Kaelik
What kind of Wizards does he have? Anything lower then ten is going to be no help against a lvl 20. And anything above 12 will realize that they have nothing to gain from helping the King and everything to gain from dominating the King and using his Kingdom to propel themselves to level 20.

Every 12th level wizard you play goes off to dominate kings? Not in a reasonable game. In a world of magic you seem to believe a king has access to none of note. And, how does running the kingdom propel you to level 20? All the low levels show up and let you slaughter them for exp perhaps? The dragons lay at your feet? You get 8 levels of exp for role playing?


Originally Posted by Kaelik
Why? What would motivate a lvl 20 Wizard to do any of those things?


The idea that every wizard is totally self serving and unconcerned with humanity is pretty silly. I have helped old ladies with heavy bags for no other reason then to lend a hand. You seem to imply that once a certain level of personal power is reached, one no longer gives 2 cents about the rest of the world. Its a dim view of any world and the people in it in my opinion.


Why does a 20th level wizard help a child find a lost pet? Because it makes him warm and fuzzy making kids smile. Why does a 20th level wizard torture people? For the pure sadistic pleasure of it. I play in games with role playing, I know its optional, but I like it.

I won't address the rest, most of it depends on a game mechanic that totally screws the economical system in D&D. Or it depends totally on self serving behavior ruling every wizard of 20th level.

Kaelik
2007-10-10, 08:56 PM
OK, that makes things easy. The rogue creates a weird, obscure situation in some place, which piques the wizard's curiousity enough to go investigate it.

As for the whole business of "Obviously any wizard powerful enough to be of any use at all to the king is going to dominate him instead", you might want to consider the possibility that not every wizard is Munchkin Neutral. Some actually think that having a king isn't so bad, or that weakening the king risks throwing innocent people's lives into turmoil, or like having power but don't like dealing with beaurocracy, so let the king alone to handle that himself, or...

Please read my more detailed description of the way the D&D world would work. And see the way I described Kings existing in D&D.

Kaelik
2007-10-10, 09:03 PM
What DM actually lets that unlimited summon/ wish cheese fly? I suppose some do. I suppose some gaming groups that play 20th level character gather often to sit around and let the wizard summon/ wish through the whole night. Sounds fun. While by the RAW many things are possible, some things are not really fun or for that matter reasonable.

A king can't directly manage all that money, but a wizard can? In fact while a king does not direct all of the kingdoms money every second. He employs people, they obey because of consequences. Its a world dynamic.

Sure anyone can do anything in this world. But, many things have penalties and consequences that make acting in certain ways not deemed acceptable not worth it to most people. I.E. Murder, thievery, etc. This dynamic is even present in the D&D game.

I'm sorry but killing the king is not as easy as you make it out to be.

Your right land has economical value. Most of D&D is based on a economical system. Acquiring land, money, magical items are all forms of economical value. Which characters strive to attain to increase their personal power. The idea that money and magic have value, but land does not, is not very feasible. Especially considering in your world so much money and probably magic is fabricated through wishes, thus devaluing it.

What value does money have in a system when the economy is flooded with money? In your system money becomes worthless. Why would a wizard summon hordes of money if not to apply it somehow? When all those 20th level wizards flood the world with money. A long sword will cost 10, 000gp. The fact that D&D long swords don't cost so much implies that wizards indeed don't flood the economy with tons of summoned/ wish money.

And, what of those other 7th-20th level characters in the kings army? I suppose they just lay down and die? And a 300ft cloud moving 10ft a round does not vanquish even a army of low level characters. They move out the way perhaps? Or I suppose they just stand in its path and die like fools? Let me guess, he summons a few clouds?

Once again, some relationships are not all about serving the self interest of a few, but a greater good. And, once again in your world money has been devalued because wizards are summoning/ wish it to worthlessness. Lets say that was not a issue, the dynamic changes then.

Every 12th level wizard you play goes off to dominate kings? Not in a reasonable game. In a world of magic you seem to believe a king has access to none of note. And, how does running the kingdom propel you to level 20? All the low levels show up and let you slaughter them for exp perhaps? The dragons lay at your feet? You get 8 levels of exp for role playing?

The idea that every wizard is totally self serving and unconcerned with humanity is pretty silly. I have helped old ladies with heavy bags for no other reason then to lend a hand. You seem to imply that once a certain level of personal power is reached, one no longer gives 2 cents about the rest of the world. Its a dim view of any world and the people in it in my opinion.

Why does a 20th level wizard help a child find a lost pet? Because it makes him warm and fuzzy making kids smile. Why does a 20th level wizard torture people? For the pure sadistic pleasure of it. I play in games with role playing, I know its optional, but I like it.

I won't address the rest, most of it depends on a game mechanic that totally screws the economical system in D&D. Or it depends totally on self serving behavior ruling every wizard of 20th level.

A) The economy won't be devalued because as I stated, the Wizard operates in an entirely separate economy. He makes what he needs to create the items he wants. He doesn't actually need money at all.
B) Not all Wizards are X. We get it. But the ones that aren't all die or help old ladies all day so they don't matter.

Aquillion
2007-10-10, 10:23 PM
A) But it says that unless it says otherwise we must assume that it has all those things. No where does it say that Contingent Teleport doesn't have a saving throw, nor does it say that it doesn't have an attack role. What's the to hit of a Contingency anyway? I mean, it must have one because, as a "magical trap" that does not specify not having an attack role, it must hit the AC of everyone within hundreds of miles in order for it to activate. (Or maybe the Wizard only teleports to those whose AC are hit?)I'm not sure where you get the AC bit; there's no mention of that that I can see. The relevent text on traps is as follows:

Many spells can be used to create dangerous traps. Unless the spell or item description states otherwise, assume the following to be true.

* A successful Search check (DC 25 + spell level) made by a rogue (and only a rogue) detects a magic trap before it goes off. Other characters have no chance to find a magic trap with a Search check.
* Magic traps permit a saving throw in order to avoid the effect (DC 10 + spell level ◊ 1.5).
* Magic traps may be disarmed by a rogue (and only a rogue) with a successful Disable Device check (DC 25 + spell level).There are several questions. First is whether contingent teleport can be 'dangerous', which I suppose it could be under some circumstances. Second is who gets the saving throw (you or the person setting it off?) Third is what save it calls for... whoops? It comes to mind that these rules were perhaps not playtested thoroughly, since they are clearly intended to provide guidelines for applying saving throws to spells that don't normally indicate one (why else "unless the spell or item description states otherwise" -- or even mention it at all?), but don't provide any hint of what save to use.

Note that it would in any case be a spell trap, not a magical device trap. Aside from the three points noted above, everything else on in the trap rules basically says "as the spell's text"; those three points, though, are explictly and clearly worded to override the text of spellsthat do not mention anything one way or the other about disable device and search... when those spells are used as traps, anyway.



B)You really are arguing that Contingency/Spell Sequencer/Clone and Delayed Blast Fireball are "Magical Traps" and can all be disabled by a Rogue 20 with Dex 12 50% of the time? 50% of the time a Rogue can reach into a Wizards brain and make him forget spells?I am arguing exactly that. I do not see any way, short of simply ignoring it, that the paragraph from the SRD that I quoted above could be interpreted to mean anything else; leaving, say, a Delayed Blast Fireball to greet someone following you is indisputably a "dangerous trap" created by a spell, and therefore is subject to those rules. What else could they possibly mean? Do you have some other interpretation for the paragraph I quoted? They are there, and must be intended to apply to multiple spells. Which spells do you think they apply to? When does that "assume the following to be true" clause spring into effect? I am all ears, but short of houseruling it out of existence it must apply sometimes, and I can't think of anything more suitable than a Delayed Blast Fireball.

It isn't 'reaching into the wizard's brain and making them forget spells', it's being sensitive to some sort of magical residue, knowing exactly where to poke with cold steel or where to spit to make the entire magical construct fall apart. It's knowing the details of how the trigger is set up, and what odd things you can do to spoil it so it never goes off. That sort of thing. Rogues are sensitive to danger and know, instinctively, how to make dangerous things stop being dangerous. That's all.

With that said, remember that it is not so simple as 'roll the dice, counter the spell.' A rogue can't disarm a trap on the other side of the room, and likewise, in order to disarm a delayed blast fireball they would have to be on top of it. They would also have to find it--the bead is a tiny thing. And they'd have to recognize it for what it is. Both of the last two might be covered by a search check (since the rogue ability to spot magic traps with search must include some degree to recognize, at the very least, that 'that is a trap'), but search requires time, and isn't used automatically. Disarming traps also requires multiple rounds... which could be a problem with a delayed blast fireball. Oh, also, they have a 25% chance of exploding if handled within 1 round of detonation. And the max delay is 5 rounds, while it takes 2d4 rounds to disarm a trap. You do the math.

In other words, this isn't a strategy to be used in combat. Or on delayed blast fireball at all, really, unless you're fantastically luck... well, rogues have evasion, so it doesn't require so much luck. It's just not likely to work. But they could theoretically try it. The party rogue screams "GET DOWN!", throws themselves at the fiery bead, and starts fiddling with a bit of wire; then it either sparks and fizzles, the arcane forces that operated it spoiled, or explodes in a fiery conflagration that (due to evasion rules that are vastly less logical than anything that has to do with traps) inexplicably fails to damage the rogue despite their being right on top of it.

You shouldn't question how someone could make a volatile arcane construct stop working using just a bit of iron wire, some manual dexterity, and their wits; you should be wondering how someone can make a delayed blast fireball work at all.

Mr. Moogle
2007-10-10, 10:36 PM
Arm the Monk with a bow. Heck it doesn't even need to be a magic bow. The dragon gives the wizard a more pressing target while the monk sneaks into position and nails the wizard with Quivering palm. By the time the wizard get his save a round later the monk is in charging range. If I include other magic items for the monk, things get a lot easier. Other Sorcebooks make it even easier, Zen Archery for example, then all I really need a halfway's decent dex and then just pump Wis for the highest possible DC for Quivering palm. Psionics add sad rediculousness to this style of play. But I decided to limit myself to core and one magic item for this exercise.

Actually it needs to be a Ki bow

Rockphed
2007-10-10, 10:50 PM
It is unlikely that a rogue could disarm a Contingency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contingency.htm). This is not because contingency can't be dangerous, but because there is no way a rogue can be the target of a contingencied anything. Furthermore, by RAW, a complicated Contingency trigger might cause the whole setup to fail, however RAW does not include a definition of Complicated nor rules for how likely the setup is to fail.

How "dangerous" a contingency is even when not targeting the rogue is up for debate. Mainly I was saying the a Contingencied Hold Monster would merely hold the caster.

Shinkoro
2007-10-10, 11:16 PM
Originally Posted by Kaelik
A) The economy won't be devalued because as I stated, the Wizard operates in an entirely separate economy. He makes what he needs to create the items he wants. He doesn't actually need money at all.
B) Not all Wizards are X. We get it. But the ones that aren't all die or help old ladies all day so they don't matter.


A. If its all money then having alot of it or a little of it puts you in the same economy, just different financial situations. The baker and the wizard are in the very same economy. Ones rich with summoned/ wish money, ones just earning a living. Both are in the same economy.

The cost of making items reflects partly the cost of components according to the DMG. Needing gold implies that a wizard buys some components required to manufacture items, spells etc. Meaning that the summon/ wish money does indeed devalue the game economy. A wizard that collects all the components himself could probably avoid the financial cost of making items, but lengthen the time to make them.

B. So if a wizard does not spend all their time with self serving endeavors they don't matter? I won't even bother mentioning people like Mother Theresa. Whats the point? She's wasted her life helping others.

C. I won't comment more in this thread. We don't agree on some things. I can agree to disagree, and let that be that.

Kaelik
2007-10-11, 12:07 AM
Note that it would in any case be a spell trap, not a magical device trap. Aside from the three points noted above, everything else on in the trap rules basically says "as the spell's text"; those three points, though, are explictly and clearly worded to override the text of spellsthat do not mention anything one way or the other about disable device and search... when those spells are used as traps, anyway.

Right except that you pretend everything is a trap, Forcecage can be used as a Trap, Grease can be used as a trap. Anything placed around a corner is by your definition a trap, and as such you think that a rogue can magically disable it. WRONG! Spells are not spelltraps just because they can cause harm, they are spells. Spells do X. Spells cannot be disabled. "Spelltraps" are things that can be placed and left permanently just like regular traps.


You shouldn't question how someone could make a volatile arcane construct stop working using just a bit of iron wire, some manual dexterity, and their wits; you should be wondering how someone can make a delayed blast fireball work at all.

You shouldn't say that an obscure paragraph in the DMG as relates to traps without specifying at all what a trap is means that a rogue can disable every single spell in the game.

Furthermore, lets look at your crazy definition of "dangerous." If an Alarm spell is dangerous then a Contingent Teleport is dangerous, they both possess the possibility of somehow in the future allowing the rogue to come to harm. Therefore any and all buffs are in fact "dangerous traps" because they could allow the wizard to do X and hurt the rogue. That's ridiculous. A Magic Mouth that alerts a Wizard if he drops something is not a dangerous trap. It is a spell, with a specific function.

Chronos
2007-10-11, 12:08 AM
The party rogue screams "GET DOWN!", throws themselves at the fiery bead, and starts fiddling with a bit of wire; then it either sparks and fizzles, the arcane forces that operated it spoiled, or explodes in a fiery conflagration that (due to evasion rules that are vastly less logical than anything that has to do with traps) inexplicably fails to damage the rogue despite their being right on top of it.Let's see... Do I cut the red ley line, or the blue ley line?


Edit to avoid having two posts in a row:
Spells are not spelltraps just because they can cause harm, they are spells. Spells do X. Spells cannot be disabled. "Spelltraps" are things that can be placed and left permanently just like regular traps.So by that argument, Teleportation Circle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportationCircle.htm) is not a spelltrap, since it has a duration of 10 min/level, but Magic Mouth (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicMouth.htm) is a spelltrap, since it has a duration of "permanent until discharged"?

Kaelik
2007-10-11, 12:14 AM
A. If its all money then having alot of it or a little of it puts you in the same economy, just different financial situations. The baker and the wizard are in the very same economy. Ones rich with summoned/ wish money, ones just earning a living. Both are in the same economy.

The cost of making items reflects partly the cost of components according to the DMG. Needing gold implies that a wizard buys some components required to manufacture items, spells etc. Meaning that the summon/ wish money does indeed devalue the game economy. A wizard that collects all the components himself could probably avoid the financial cost of making items, but lengthen the time to make them.

Or he could just wish the components into existence and skip the middle man. He doesn't need money because he can wish for anything he needs. If you can create anything you want out of nothing you don't need to buy anything.

As such he exists in a different economy then the Commoner since he creates something from nothing and then uses it to create something only valuable to him. No where in there does he interact with the Commoner economy.


B. So if a wizard does not spend all their time with self serving endeavors they don't matter? I won't even bother mentioning people like Mother Theresa. Whats the point? She's wasted her life helping others.

If a Wizard does not have any more effect then a much less powerful character then he isn't important. It doesn't matter what someone else does, it matters what you do, and in this case we are talking about a Full caster who tries to be Batman. (IE: Is immortal, tool for everything.) As such, The answer to "How does a Fullcaster who can't deal with stealth characters deal with stealth characters?" doesn't matter. All that matters is how the ones that do deal with them manage.

C
. I won't comment more in this thread. We don't agree on some things. I can agree to disagree, and let that be that.

I can also agree to disagree, but I find it more enjoyable to talk with others about their view points. I don't feel the need to silence myself just because not everyone agrees with me.

Skjaldbakka
2007-10-11, 12:15 AM
Actually it needs to be a Ki bow

Ki is a melee only weapon, so unless you mean a bo, that doesn't work either. BTW, if you are the official monk advocate, why haven't I seen you around at the monk thread?

namo
2007-10-11, 12:45 AM
@Nowhere Girl : no, the wizard probably doesn't anticipate the rogue's prank. The mystery is *again* how the rogue found the wizard.

I'm hardly a specialist of rules on traps, but it seemed to me that traps were always material (or had a substantial material part). Can anybody point me to a trap in the DMG (or another published book) that's purely immaterial (which would allow disabling a buff on the wizard !) or energy (DBF !) ?

The Symbols and the Teleportation Circle definitely have this material part.

Kaelik
2007-10-11, 02:01 AM
3:Rogue discerns the location of an alarm spell closest to the nearest available exit to the mages megafortress of doom (not sure how they go about that offhand, but I'm sure it can be done)

The problems are that:
A) I doubt Discern Location can find spells, much less ridiculously specific spells in places you don't even know exist (How did you find the Wizard's Fortress? It's major advantage is that no one can find it. Big important buildings that everyone knows about are useless.)
B)MMM can only be teleported into. Assuming this is his place, why would he have alarm spells outside?

Garatolla
2007-10-11, 02:27 AM
well, if it's MMM, then it's moot, as that spell is like picking up a star in a mario game, but as for these hidden mega fortresses that are floating about, someone always finds out about them - one of the staples of fantasy is raiding some evil wizards evil bastion of ultimate power +5. The chances are that any wizard with such a place is doing something to need it, earlier mentions of wizards who spend their time helping old ladies and such, have no need for that kind of place to start with, and if someone is after them, then there's just one avenue of info - another spellcaster or powerful individual who wants them gone - not to mention that big black tower made from the scorched bones of hundreds of thousands of tortured virgins tends to stick out on whatever it is surrounded by, wether that be oppressed outlying hamlets or cliff face....

Anyways, as to the topic of what casters can do about high stealth types, the same they can do with everything else, wish it out of existence, or something else at least equally all encompassing and twice as dull.....

Aquillion
2007-10-11, 05:00 AM
Right except that you pretend everything is a trap, Forcecage can be used as a Trap, Grease can be used as a trap. Anything placed around a corner is by your definition a trap, and as such you think that a rogue can magically disable it. WRONG! Spells are not spelltraps just because they can cause harm, they are spells. Spells do X. Spells cannot be disabled. "Spelltraps" are things that can be placed and left permanently just like regular traps.Again, both of those lack a key feature of traps, which the SRD says all traps must have: A trigger.


You shouldn't say that an obscure paragraph in the DMG as relates to traps without specifying at all what a trap is means that a rogue can disable every single spell in the game.

Furthermore, lets look at your crazy definition of "dangerous." If an Alarm spell is dangerous then a Contingent Teleport is dangerous, they both possess the possibility of somehow in the future allowing the rogue to come to harm. Therefore any and all buffs are in fact "dangerous traps" because they could allow the wizard to do X and hurt the rogue. That's ridiculous. A Magic Mouth that alerts a Wizard if he drops something is not a dangerous trap. It is a spell, with a specific function.First, remember: Trigger. The SRD specifically defines a trap as something that is triggered; if a spell doesn't have a trigger built into its description, it isn't a spelltrap. That much is simple, so there's no use talking about "any and all buffs."

Second: Under most circumstances, an alarm is dangerous by any reasonable definition of the term; triggering it instantly and decisively places whoever triggered it into danger. Yes, it is possible for an alarm to be harmless, but most of the time it will clearly be dangerous, especially for a thief.

Teleportation Circle is much more likely to be harmless, depending on where it leads; and yet it is a spelltrap. Why do you accept that that is a spelltrap, yet insist that Alarm isn't? Keep in mind that the one line Teleportation Circle's text that tells you how to apply the trap DC rules to it is not a valid reason, since the trap rules explicitly tell you how to come up with trap DCs for all spelltraps yourself, and tell you to do so with any spell that the players use to create a trap unless the spell's text says otherwise.

But ultimately, you still haven't answered my main question. What does that paragraph I quoted mean? Your opinion seems to be "I don't like it, so I'm going to ignore it"; you just want to call it an "obscure paragraph" and have it magically go away. That is fine for a houserule, but if you actually go by the RAW, it is clearly providing rules for disarming spells just like Alarm.

(Disarming contingent teleport is a much dicier proposition; the question there is really somewhat moot, since it takes 2d4 rounds to disarm, and the wizard is unlikely to sit still for that. But it is somewhat difficult for me to accept that you don't believe that Alarm is, under most circumstances, a directly and immediately dangerous effect for a thief to set off.)


The Symbols and the Teleportation Circle definitely have this material partWhat is the material part of a teleportation circle? It requires that amber dust be scattered over the area as a material component, but (like all material components) that's consumed in the casting, and is gone by the time the circle itself is manifested. It is described as 'almost impossible to notice', which could mean anything (an almost impossible to notice distortion caused by the magic, say), but no indication is given that there is any physical aspect to the effect that can be interacted with in any normal fashion.

In fact, Contingency has a material part that is much more concretely-described than anything in the Teleportation Circle: its focus, which is described as essential to its continued efficiency. Unlike Teleportation Circle, in other words, a Contingency is specifically described as being anchored in and depending on an object in the physical world (two, really: the focus and the caster's body.)

Skjaldbakka
2007-10-11, 05:37 AM
But it is somewhat difficult for me to accept that you don't believe that Alarm is, under most circumstances, a directly and immediately dangerous effect for a thief to set off.)

The simpler line of argument to take in favor of disarming an alarm spell is the fact that alarm is the trigger for a significant number of magical traps. If it isn't possible to disarm Alarm, how do you disarm those traps?

namo
2007-10-11, 05:58 AM
What is the material part of a teleportation circle? It requires that amber dust be scattered over the area as a material component, but (like all material components) that's consumed in the casting, and is gone by the time the circle itself is manifested. It is described as 'almost impossible to notice', which could mean anything (an almost impossible to notice distortion caused by the magic, say), but no indication is given that there is any physical aspect to the effect that can be interacted with in any normal fashion.


You create a circle on the floor
then the Rogue messes subtly with the circle and makes it inoperant. Disarmed !

The funny thing is, I tend to reason very abstractly, but all of you are way ahead of me. Calling an emanation like Alarm a trap is beyond me.

I will add this : rogues have UMD and wands of Dispel Magic for a reason.


In fact, Contingency has a material part that is much more concretely-described than anything in the Teleportation Circle: its focus, which is described as essential to its continued efficiency. Unlike Teleportation Circle, in other words, a Contingency is specifically described as being anchored in and depending on an object in the physical world (two, really: the focus and the caster's body.)

Sure, if you steal the focus, contingency fails. But it has nothing to do with disarming a trap.

@Skjald :
The proximity trigger used most often for magic device traps is the alarm spell. Unlike when the spell is cast, an alarm spell used as a trigger can have an area that’s no larger than the area the trap is meant to protect.
You don't disarm the Alarm, you disarm the trap (which includes the trigger).

I admit the text is not clear ; it just seems common sense to me that the Rogue is not manipulating magical energies directly (it's a skill, it's (Ex)).

Kaelik
2007-10-11, 07:13 AM
Again, both of those lack a key feature of traps, which the SRD says all traps must have: A trigger.

First, remember: Trigger. The SRD specifically defines a trap as something that is triggered; if a spell doesn't have a trigger built into its description, it isn't a spelltrap. That much is simple, so there's no use talking about "any and all buffs."

The trigger for Grease= being in the greased area. The trigger for Forcecage=running into it at full speed. The trigger for a "buff" trap (like Fire Shield. But it also applies to something like Iron Body) is attacking the wizard (or attempting to poison him when he is immune, or whatever.)

Suddenly all those spells become "dangerous" when before that trigger was met they weren't dangerous at all. The problem is you created such an open definition of trap that it actually applies to everything. You just pretend it only applies to the things you want it to.


Second: Under most circumstances, an alarm is dangerous by any reasonable definition of the term; triggering it instantly and decisively places whoever triggered it into danger. Yes, it is possible for an alarm to be harmless, but most of the time it will clearly be dangerous, especially for a thief.

Teleportation Circle is much more likely to be harmless, depending on where it leads; and yet it is a spelltrap. Why do you accept that that is a spelltrap, yet insist that Alarm isn't? Keep in mind that the one line Teleportation Circle's text that tells you how to apply the trap DC rules to it is not a valid reason, since the trap rules explicitly tell you how to come up with trap DCs for all spelltraps yourself, and tell you to do so with any spell that the players use to create a trap unless the spell's text says otherwise.

But ultimately, you still haven't answered my main question. What does that paragraph I quoted mean? Your opinion seems to be "I don't like it, so I'm going to ignore it"; you just want to call it an "obscure paragraph" and have it magically go away. That is fine for a houserule, but if you actually go by the RAW, it is clearly providing rules for disarming spells just like Alarm.

Actually, if you go by the RAW it is clearly laying out rules for disabling Sephia's Snake Sigil and a nebulous term "other trap-like spells." It is arguable whether Alarm is one such spell. I personally believe that by "other trap-like spells" it means teleportation circle, symbol spells, and the possibility of future similar spells since they wrote that passage knowing they would create non-PHB spells in the future. And Alarm is something that might, possibly be disarmable in my campaign, but never when there was anyone with dispel magic around. Because a Rogue's job is not to negate spells, his job is to find traps. As such, spell disabling should be done by dispel magic.



(Disarming contingent teleport is a much dicier proposition; the question there is really somewhat moot, since it takes 2d4 rounds to disarm, and the wizard is unlikely to sit still for that. But it is somewhat difficult for me to accept that you don't believe that Alarm is, under most circumstances, a directly and immediately dangerous effect for a thief to set off.)

Except that we are dealing with the absolutely silly notion that Mr Rogue can interact with the Wizard while hiding and not ever be noticed. Though in rereading a part of the Dungeonomicon I took note of the statement that Hide was crappy because as soon as you hit someone they automatically know where you are, as such, I wonder where Frank would get such an idea without some basis in the rules. But I haven't questioned the silly notion yet because I didn't really find it a worthwhile discussion.

As for Alarm, I think that it could be defined as dangerous. I also think it can not be defined as a trap since it does not have a trigger and does not have a reset. It just does one thing (Alert the caster if someone enters the area) for the duration of the spell.

NullAshton
2007-10-11, 11:04 AM
Alarm is only anchored to a point in space, thus if you find some way to get past the initial alarm.. I doubt the wizard would like having to speak the password every time he walks through wherever he hangs out. Also, it's possible that the rogue somehow bribed someone close to the wizard to utter the password. Wizards are human, and thus make mistakes.

The wizard will HAVE to eventually interact with other people. Perhaps the wizard decided he wants some servants, he would most likely have to hire some of the local peasants, or some extraplanar creatures. Maybe the wizard has a soft spot for his family, and he visits said family from time to time. The wizard might have a loved one that he/she takes care of, supporting him/her with all sorts of luxury in life.

Wizards would have some sort of motivation other than 'sit in a magically created invincible mansion and sit there all day'. If it's even as simple as magical power, perhaps the wizard decides to investigate some magical happenings. The wizard is forced to go out of the world for a bit. And this could even be faked, as to encourage a wizard to come to a certain event at a certain time...

The wizard has a loved one, this is obvious and most wizard will want it. You could always summon demons for that, but they have the slight problem of either being ugly, or draining your levels... anyway, screw how intelligent the wizard might be, love makes you do stupid things. Maybe the wizard invited her into his private sanctum, but little does he know that she's actually working for the Assassin Guild, who's getting tired of the pesky wizard interfering with THEIR jobs...

Maybe the wizard wanted some pretty stuff, a nice house, you know stuff most people want in life. It endangers them, sure, but they REALLY want that nice mansion up on that hill. Then they hire servants... who can again be bribed, can be a spy working for someone else, and so on. The caster COULD dominate all servants that come... but that would either lead to an uprising against the wizard, and even then a spy could use False Pretenses, a spelltouched feat, to make the wizard THINK he/she is dominated.

GoC
2007-10-11, 11:20 AM
Finally, no character can mount a defense that cannot be overcome. Anything one man does, another man can undo. Its a time tested rule. Its why encryption keeps escalating, and people claim it cant be busted and yet it always is.
Never heard of the Twice Betrayer of Sharr (or was it the Cheater of Mystra?) have you?


The idea that every wizard is totally self serving and unconcerned with humanity is pretty silly. I have helped old ladies with heavy bags for no other reason then to lend a hand. You seem to imply that once a certain level of personal power is reached, one no longer gives 2 cents about the rest of the world.

I certainly wouldn't.
And I'm the kind of person likely to be power hungry enough to actualy become a 20th level wizard.
You're the kind who becomes the level 20 paladin.

Chronos
2007-10-11, 12:37 PM
And I'm the kind of person likely to be power hungry enough to actualy become a 20th level wizard.
You're the kind who becomes the level 20 paladin.Because, of course, it's impossible for anyone other than a paladin to be Lawful Good.


The trigger for Grease= being in the greased area. The trigger for Forcecage=running into it at full speed. The trigger for a "buff" trap (like Fire Shield. But it also applies to something like Iron Body) is attacking the wizard (or attempting to poison him when he is immune, or whatever.)No, the area's slippery whether you're in it or not, and the Forcecage is there whether you run into it or not, and the wizard is immune to poison whether he's poisoned or not. None of those are triggers. By contrast, Alarm does not squeal regardless of whether there are intruders: Alarm only squeals if there's an intruder, but not if there isn't one. And the description of Magic Mouth explicitly says that it has a trigger, and in fact is the model for many other triggered spells.

PaladinBoy
2007-10-11, 08:34 PM
Okay, I concede the point on the buffs, at least if the wizard is expecting trouble. Not so sure about the teleporting. I'd use it for some things, sure, but how am I supposed to meet a nice girl or something if I teleport everywhere?

Let's see:

Of course at any moment someone could start playing different game, and then they don't care that Kelban Blackstaff runs Waterdeep, they only care how well he slings spells. That's also why "Kings" treat their lives separately. They don't use their magic much in defense of their kingdom, and they do use it on the side to pursue their own goals.

Doesn't seem likely. Why would Khelben Blackstaff commit a huge Waterdhavian army and his own magical power to defend Evereska if all he cares about is his own goals? Why would Lady Laeral personally fight, and get her arm cut off, to defend a few elves from the Shadovar?

Why would Lady Alustriel risk her own life and a large portion of the Knights in Silver to defend Mithral Hall? She employed all of her magical power, and nearly her life, to defend Mithral Hall. The book does say that she did it because it was the right thing to do.

In conclusion, not all wizards are Vulcan Neutral. An Int score in the low thirties does not preclude morals, love, prejudice, sadism, etc. Worrying about paranoid wizards that don't do anything except in their own best interest is fine, but it's only a small part of the debate, because those paranoid wizards are hardly a cipher for every wizard.

Kaelik
2007-10-11, 09:14 PM
Okay, I concede the point on the buffs, at least if the wizard is expecting trouble. Not so sure about the teleporting. I'd use it for some things, sure, but how am I supposed to meet a nice girl or something if I teleport everywhere?

Let's see:


Doesn't seem likely. Why would Khelben Blackstaff commit a huge Waterdhavian army and his own magical power to defend Evereska if all he cares about is his own goals? Why would Lady Laeral personally fight, and get her arm cut off, to defend a few elves from the Shadovar?

Why would Lady Alustriel risk her own life and a large portion of the Knights in Silver to defend Mithral Hall? She employed all of her magical power, and nearly her life, to defend Mithral Hall. The book does say that she did it because it was the right thing to do.

In conclusion, not all wizards are Vulcan Neutral. An Int score in the low thirties does not preclude morals, love, prejudice, sadism, etc. Worrying about paranoid wizards that don't do anything except in their own best interest is fine, but it's only a small part of the debate, because those paranoid wizards are hardly a cipher for every wizard.

A) You quoted the part of my post least relevant to what you are saying.
B) I am not a FR junkie so I was just giving examples that seem similar to what I would expect from a universe logically consistent with the rules.
C) I already specified that all high level people pursue their own interests with their power. If your interest is "doing what's right" then that's what you do with your power. If be a crotchety old manipulative sage is what you want to do then your interests include knowledge, finding people to manipulate, and manipulating them. AKA Elminster. If you interests are making everyone in the universe feel a warm fuzzy glow in their stomach then you try and do that.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-11, 09:36 PM
Right except that you pretend everything is a trap, Forcecage can be used as a Trap, Grease can be used as a trap. Anything placed around a corner is by your definition a trap, and as such you think that a rogue can magically disable it. WRONG! Spells are not spelltraps just because they can cause harm, they are spells. Spells do X. Spells cannot be disabled. "Spelltraps" are things that can be placed and left permanently just like regular traps.



You shouldn't say that an obscure paragraph in the DMG as relates to traps without specifying at all what a trap is means that a rogue can disable every single spell in the game.

Furthermore, lets look at your crazy definition of "dangerous." If an Alarm spell is dangerous then a Contingent Teleport is dangerous, they both possess the possibility of somehow in the future allowing the rogue to come to harm. Therefore any and all buffs are in fact "dangerous traps" because they could allow the wizard to do X and hurt the rogue. That's ridiculous. A Magic Mouth that alerts a Wizard if he drops something is not a dangerous trap. It is a spell, with a specific function.

So ludicrous, if technically defensible, literalist interpretations of the RAW are only valid if they benefit wizards, right?

Be careful how you answer. Much of your entire stance on wizards being so godlike depends on that very idea.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-11, 09:43 PM
Or he could just wish the components into existence and skip the middle man.

One at a time? That could get expensive. Wish costs experience, you know.

Ah, of course! He could wish for "all the components I'll need."

GM: Okay, you're buried under a mountain of all of the components you'd conceivably ever need in the entirity of the remainder of your life. You die a horrible death from suffocation. Make a new character and stop being a jack*ss munchkin.

Wish is particularly iffy. Even without invoking Rule Zero and pointing out that what the GM says goes no matter what the RAW say, a GM can easily play merry hell with wish abusers because the wish spell description itself invites GMs to do so.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-11, 09:48 PM
@Nowhere Girl : no, the wizard probably doesn't anticipate the rogue's prank. The mystery is *again* how the rogue found the wizard.

There's really no mystery. This has been covered. Unless a wizard is obsessively hiding out to the exclusion of all else, perfectly mundane skills make finding him or her possible.

If the wizard is obsessively hiding out to the exclusion of all else, a smart DM might begin assigning penalties such as, perhaps:

Gradual loss of spoken language abilities.

Temporary but slowly mounting negative levels, reflecting emotional degradation (isolating yourself to this extent is akin to solitary confinement, which is severely damaging if it goes on indefinitely). It's not that you actually forget how to cast those higher-level spells, it's that you're losing the mental focus you need to do it.

Eventual complete loss of sanity. Lose your character sheet.

Harsh? Sure. Refer to Rule Zero.

Kaelik
2007-10-11, 09:52 PM
One at a time? That could get expensive. Wish costs experience, you know.

Ah, of course! He could wish for "all the components I'll need."

GM: Okay, you're buried under a mountain of all of the components you'd conceivably ever need in the entirity of the remainder of your life. You die a horrible death from suffocation. Make a new character and stop being a jack*ss munchkin.

Wish is particularly iffy. Even without invoking Rule Zero and pointing out that what the GM says goes no matter what the RAW say, a GM can easily play merry hell with wish abusers because the wish spell description itself invites GMs to do so.

Or he could use Planar Bound genies instead. That requires no XP. Or he could use his Int 34 to not be an idiot and wish for things in a way that Wish won't screw him over. Or he could spend his first round of holding his breath to use his Greater Teleport SLA (Archmage levels)/Teleport regularly.

Kaelik
2007-10-11, 09:55 PM
There's really no mystery. This has been covered. Unless a wizard is obsessively hiding out to the exclusion of all else, perfectly mundane skills make finding him or her possible.

If the wizard is obsessively hiding out to the exclusion of all else, a smart DM might begin assigning penalties such as, perhaps:

Gradual loss of spoken language abilities.

Temporary but slowly mounting negative levels, reflecting emotional degradation (isolating yourself to this extent is akin to solitary confinement, which is severely damaging if it goes on indefinitely). It's not that you actually forget how to cast those higher-level spells, it's that you're losing the mental focus you need to do it.

Eventual complete loss of sanity. Lose your character sheet.

Harsh? Sure. Refer to Rule Zero.

Or he could be hiding out and leaving only to do things of general import. And of course no one could ever find his hiding place.

How often do you start taking away languages from people for not speaking them? First of, the stupid Bard rogue who knows every language never uses any but common and maybe one more for more then 7 words a campaign. Secondly, if the Wizard is studying tombs the might, I don't know, be written in languages. Maybe even multiple ones.


So ludicrous, if technically defensible, literalist interpretations of the RAW are only valid if they benefit wizards, right?

Be careful how you answer. Much of your entire stance on wizards being so godlike depends on that very idea.

No, I'm arguing that his interpretation is not technically defensible.

Kaelik
2007-10-11, 09:56 PM
double post

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-11, 09:57 PM
Because, of course, it's impossible for anyone other than a paladin to be Lawful Good.

Actually, all paladins are Lawful Stupid, absolutely everyone else is Neutral Greedy, and everyone obeys the DM except the wizard, who obeys only the most literalist interpretation of the RAW, excepting of course where it's not beneficial to him.

No deviation from the above whatsoever is allowed.

Ever.

Kaelik
2007-10-11, 09:59 PM
Actually, all paladins are Lawful Stupid, absolutely everyone else is Neutral Greedy, and everyone obeys the DM except the wizard, who obeys only the most beneficial literalist interpretation of the RAW.

No deviation from the above whatsoever is allowed.

Ever.

DM ShmeeM. I am pretending that the rules are a simulation of a world. As such I am describing how that world would operate. If you change the rules you get a different outcome, but that doesn't change what the original outcome would have been.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-11, 10:27 PM
Or he could use Planar Bound genies instead. That requires no XP.

Hey, that works.

Of course, they can just plane shift home.

You can use dimensional lock, but you'll need to do it before they act. I know, I know, celerity and time stop. Okay. But the thing is, you're going to start making enemies out of a lot of beings that can cast wish without expending any experience, who also might have friends of other types who are powerful, some of whom might also be wizards themselves.

Bear in mind they "can" grant three wishes. It doesn't actually say that they must. Nor does planar binding of any variety automatically force servitude -- it only drags something over so you can try to coerce or bargain for service.

Let's not forget that since you're getting someone else to grant your wish, that someone else actually words the wish itself. Someone who probably dislikes you intensely right now. Someone who might take your request and grant it in the worst, most horribly twisted way possible. Think Wishmaster, and you're getting the idea.

And who says revenge can't come in the form of a planar binding later on you, complete with dimensional anchor?

This method actually sounds like the perfect recipe for "DM lets you do it, then gradually sets up your character's death ... and it's your fault because you basically engineered it yourself."


Or he could use his Int 34 to not be an idiot and wish for things in a way that Wish won't screw him over.

GM: I don't care what your Intelligence score is; that's how you worded your wish. Show me in the rules you love so much where it says having a high Intelligence score entitles you to be bailed out when you do something stupid.


Or he could spend his first round of holding his breath to use his Greater Teleport SLA (Archmage levels)/Teleport regularly.

Assuming you have it memorized as Silent, since you can't speak, sure. Then you survive and just look like an idiot, but you don't escape the fact that the text of wish actually encourages the DM to twist the wording of a wish to screw you over if you're being an a**hat.

Thinker
2007-10-11, 10:45 PM
Hey, that works.

Of course, they can just plane shift home.

You can use dimensional lock, but you'll need to do it before they act. I know, I know, celerity and time stop. Okay. But the thing is, you're going to start making enemies out of a lot of beings that can cast wish without expending any experience, who also might have friends of other types who are powerful, some of whom might also be wizards themselves.

Bear in mind they "can" grant three wishes. It doesn't actually say that they must. Nor does planar binding of any variety automatically force servitude -- it only drags something over so you can try to coerce or bargain for service.

Let's not forget that since you're getting someone else to grant your wish, that someone else actually words the wish itself. Someone who probably dislikes you intensely right now. Someone who might take your request and grant it in the worst, most horribly twisted way possible. Think Wishmaster, and you're getting the idea.

And who says revenge can't come in the form of a planar binding later on you, complete with dimensional anchor?

This method actually sounds like the perfect recipe for "DM lets you do it, then gradually sets up your character's death ... and it's your fault because you basically engineered it yourself."



GM: I don't care what your Intelligence score is; that's how you worded your wish. Show me in the rules you love so much where it says having a high Intelligence score entitles you to be bailed out when you do something stupid.



Assuming you have it memorized as Silent, since you can't speak, sure. Then you survive and just look like an idiot, but you don't escape the fact that the text of wish actually encourages the DM to twist the wording of a wish to screw you over if you're being an a**hat.

You seem incredibly adamant about the casting classes not being more powerful than non-casters. Even while casters are not omnipotent they are more versatile and have generally better class abilities (in the form of spells) than their more mundane brethren. Most prestige classes for casters require no loss on the part of the caster to gain even more class abilities, increasing their versatility and power. The same is not necessarily true for the more mundane prestige classes.

I know in this thread you are trying to say that a mundane assassin has a good chance of killing a wizard, unless the wizard is incredibly paranoid. I think that most characters who achieve that level of power would be paranoid to some degree; they had to step on a lot of toes to get there and had to be careful while doing so. I can think of more reasons for the wizard, regardless of alignment, to avoid an accessible location that is near civilization than for one to be in a more accessible area.

That said, I'm not sure what you would expect of someone who has the power of a god among men. Would you expect him to walk down the street with no defenses most of the time? If he has enemies this is an unwise choice. If he somehow avoided making enemies there is no reason for an assassin to attempt to kill him. I mean no disrespect against you, but it just seems more logical for the wizard to err on the side of caution than against it. In a world based on the rules of DnD, those who are ill-prepared and significant in power die.

Aquillion
2007-10-11, 10:47 PM
Or he could use Planar Bound genies instead. That requires no XP. Or he could use his Int 34 to not be an idiot and wish for things in a way that Wish won't screw him over. Or he could spend his first round of holding his breath to use his Greater Teleport SLA (Archmage levels)/Teleport regularly.A high intelligence doesn't necessarily mean that you are smart in the conventional sense. In fact, coming up with good wishes would be Wisdom, not Intelligence... Wisdom is the stat that keeps you from shooting yourself in the foot, while Intelligence just lets you shoot yourself in the foot via more complicated methods.

TimeWizard
2007-10-11, 11:13 PM
This may be a little off the current conversation, but true to topic, was there a problem with throwing knife + Antimagic zone = screwed Wizard strategy? I know people keep ignoring it for a reason.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-12, 12:49 AM
You seem incredibly adamant about the casting classes not being more powerful than non-casters.

No.

They are more powerful.

They're just not as much more powerful as they're made out to be here sometimes, where they're always put in the most optimal situations, always have just the spells they happen to need memorized, never have anything go wrong with spells such as wish that are designed to go wrong (it's right there in the text!) if abused, and never, ever have to make any meaningful skill checks, even when they're doing things that require skill checks.


Even while casters are not omnipotent they are more versatile and have generally better class abilities (in the form of spells) than their more mundane brethren. Most prestige classes for casters require no loss on the part of the caster to gain even more class abilities, increasing their versatility and power. The same is not necessarily true for the more mundane prestige classes.

Absolutely true.


I know in this thread you are trying to say that a mundane assassin has a good chance of killing a wizard, unless the wizard is incredibly paranoid. I think that most characters who achieve that level of power would be paranoid to some degree; they had to step on a lot of toes to get there and had to be careful while doing so. I can think of more reasons for the wizard, regardless of alignment, to avoid an accessible location that is near civilization than for one to be in a more accessible area.

Yes, to a degree. You see this kind of paranoia among the survivors in every kind of game like this (Shadowrun also comes to mind), and for the most part, the people who do it well do survive precisely because their paranoia pays off.

But there's a limit. No human being is an island -- without occasional outside contact, even introverts begin to wither. Having raw magical power is meaningless anyway if you're not obtaining it to be able to do something with it. It's like piling more and more money into a vault, then never taking it anywhere to spend it because that would be dangerous! Yes, in theory, you could do that, but the big secret is that the joke would be on you: you'd be absolutely miserable. Rich, but miserable. Even the most hermetical, penny-pinching misers go out sometimes, for God's sake!

And if players insist on playing that way anyway, I see no problem with penalizing them. Why? Two reasons: one, it's essentially metagaming and poor roleplaying, with the player reasoning that his/her character doesn't care about ever having any fun at all, even a little bit (only because there's no numerical game benefit to letting your character enjoy life a little). Two, it's logical that such a completely isolated person would be unhappy -- both due to the isolation itself and probably due to health issues caused by living in a constant, 24/7 "red alert" state.

Let me ask you something: has your uber-paranoid wizard ever even touched a woman (or a man -- whatever)? In his whole phenomenally isolated life?

Do you get what I'm saying here?


I mean no disrespect against you, but it just seems more logical for the wizard to err on the side of caution than against it. In a world based on the rules of DnD, those who are ill-prepared and significant in power die.

Putting aside all I just said, I agree. I just think these situations are taking it to ludicrous extremes that optimize game benefit while completely ignoring the fact that you're supposed to be roleplaying actual people who care about something other than how they look on a character sheet.

Skjaldbakka
2007-10-12, 01:43 AM
I would say that while not every wizard would lose to an assassin, wizards in general are still vulnerable to that tactic.

An important thing to consider is that the rogue 20 has some reason ro want to kill the wizard.

Some reasons that make sense:

The rogue has personal history with the wizard (perhaps the wizard destroyed his hometown or killed a loved one). In this case, the rogue is likely screwed, as his desire is to kill a specific wizard who may very well have retired. A retired wizard is very hard to kill, as they have legitimate cause to stay in their MMM all day, reading books and only rarely leaving.

The rogue is a master assassin, who made a bet that he could kill any target, and someone took him up on it and gave him an incredibly paranoid wizard that is also a complete recluse. Again, rogue is likely screwed.

The rogue is the head of a thieve's guild, and the wizard he wants to kill keeps interfering in his business. In this situation, the rogue is very likely to win. All the rogue has to do is have enough Knowledge Arcana to know what spell defenses are available to his target, and prepare a way to negate these spell defenses with a good strategy and UMD. He then waits for the wizard to interfere with one of his schemes again, and puts his plan into action. If the wizard stops messing with his schemes, the rogue still wins, as suddely the wizard is not interfering with his plans anymore.

namo
2007-10-12, 04:17 AM
There's really no mystery. This has been covered. Unless a wizard is obsessively hiding out to the exclusion of all else, perfectly mundane skills make finding him or her possible.

If the wizard is obsessively hiding out to the exclusion of all else, a smart DM might begin assigning penalties such as, perhaps:

Gradual loss of spoken language abilities.

Temporary but slowly mounting negative levels, reflecting emotional degradation (isolating yourself to this extent is akin to solitary confinement, which is severely damaging if it goes on indefinitely). It's not that you actually forget how to cast those higher-level spells, it's that you're losing the mental focus you need to do it.

Eventual complete loss of sanity. Lose your character sheet.

Harsh? Sure. Refer to Rule Zero.

Please don't confuse the participants to this thread. I have never defended the wizard-in-his-mansion : sure, it's possible, but it's boring.
The wizard does have his familiar to talk to - a creature with whom he is likely to build a great mutual understanding.
Or you could research a spell like Sending, but allowing actual discussion (with your wizard colleagues) - probably a 9-th level one.

What I'd do is walk around disguised. I can still have my most important defenses up at all times, and people will have trouble following me, since I would travel around (now, that is fun).

TranquilRage
2007-10-12, 08:20 AM
I cant see any reason why you cant cast AMF or a variant of the spell on an arrow. There are plenty of poisons available that would hammer a casters body.

I suppose the crunch question is, Can magical spells react to the presence of an AMF? Could a Contingency trigger "upon entering an anti magic field": no, your in an AMF. Could it trigger "If I am about to enter an AMF": nope, contingency is reactive not proactive. A spell cant detect an AMF, cant action off it. That's the whole point really.

Infact, being really mean, if you had an arrowhead designed to break from the shaft and embed in the target, then cast AMF on the head. you might screw the wizard until he was able to cut it out of his own flesh. Because at that point bugger all else would help him.

namo
2007-10-12, 09:05 AM
Let's take a moment to read the spell :
"Area: 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you"
so except if you get the arrow to cast the spell, you can't cast it on the arrow. Being an Arcane Archer helps with that, but then you're not quite a rogue anymore.

There is no D&D mechanic for 'arrows whose tip stays in your body', otherwise everybody would use them.

I believe a contingency can be triggered by an AMF - if the caster of the contingency becomes aware of the AMF before he's entirely in it.

Aquillion
2007-10-12, 11:39 AM
Trying to contingency against all the ways the wizard could be tricked or forced into an impending AMF might be going into "complicated or convoluted" triggering conditions ("If a mobile antimagic field approaches me, or if the power of a spell, ability, or trap is about to produce an Antimagic field that would encompass me, or if I am compelled towards an antimagic field by any means against my will, or if I am about to walk into antimagic field unknowingly under my own power, then...")

You could maybe word it a bit better than that ("If I am about to be inside an antimagic field for any reason"), but that's a sort of odd contingency, since it depends on future events that may not always be obvious. Also, remember that you only get one contingency, and you can't really word it to guard against multiple different events without straying into complicated or convoluted territory again... if the wizard contingencies against the AMF, that means they don't have a contingency against anything else. Since part of the reason for the AMF was to negate their contingency, that's a bit of a problem.

Ultimately, though, I think the point we keep dancing around is this: A wizard can always win if they're prepared (which includes being paranoid and always being prepared for an attack.) A wizard who walks around outside without massive layers of defensive spells, doesn't teleport from secure fortress to secure fortress, and doesn't go to absurd lengths to keep anyone from ever finding out where he is at any given time is going to be vulnerable to some strategy or another. A paranoid wizard is almost impossible to kill, but we knew that already.

The problem is that the respective skills of the two classes we're talking about here make trying to judge a "fair fight" difficult. Wizards are all about preperation. Rogues are all about taking people by surprise. If it's a situation where the rogue can take the wizard by surprise (wizard not totally paranoid, tries to live an actual normal life as a typical adventurer), the rogue certainly has a decent chance of winning. If it's a situation where the wizard is always protected, the wizard almost certainly wins.

Regarding the class power issue, remember that ultimately, nobody cares about PVP. It isn't important; D&D isn't a PVP game, and it's very rare that players actually face a situation anything like the one being described here, with a human opponent tracking them long-term in a one-on-one duel. Wizards are not powerful because they're good at PVP; they're powerful because they can resolve typical adventurer challenges in so many different ways, and can fufill many different roles as needed.

Rockphed
2007-10-12, 01:23 PM
Or he could use his Int 34 to not be an idiot and wish for things in a way that Wish won't screw him over.

High Intelligence does not wisdom give. And wisdom is what determines how good at telling good plans from bad you are.

tainsouvra
2007-10-12, 01:30 PM
High Intelligence does not wisdom give. And wisdom is what determines how good at telling good plans from bad you are. In this case, no. It's not about getting a gut feeling that this is a bad idea, it's about using a mastery of language to come up with a phrasing that specifically excludes any negative contingencies. That's Intelligence.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-12, 01:34 PM
Please don't confuse the participants to this thread. I have never defended the wizard-in-his-mansion : sure, it's possible, but it's boring.

Sorry, that wasn't exactly fully directed at you -- I think I'm looking at Kaelik almost every time I post a reply here now. I'm just floored by his concept of how wizards would actually conduct their daily lives. :smalltongue:

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-12, 01:42 PM
In this case, no. It's not about getting a gut feeling that this is a bad idea, it's about using a mastery of language to come up with a phrasing that specifically excludes any negative contingencies. That's Intelligence.

First, it doesn't matter because your character stats are not there to save you from player stupidity.

Second, D20-defined Intelligence helps you to word those phrases, but Wisdom, which governs common sense and intuition, guides you in what you should be wording against. Intelligent but unwise people artfully word their contingencies ... toward a foolish and ill-conceived end result. Then wise people point out, "But they could just do this." "Oh, I didn't think of that," stammers the "intelligent" person.

tainsouvra
2007-10-12, 02:44 PM
First, it doesn't matter because your character stats are not there to save you from player stupidity. Then you're arguing against the premise of using stats, not which stat to use. Pick an argument, don't move the goalposts.

Second, D20-defined Intelligence helps you to word those phrases, but Wisdom, which governs common sense and intuition, guides you in what you should be wording against. That is irrelevant in this situation. While the question "should I bother Wishing for this, or is there a common-sense way that doesn't need a Wish" would be Wisdom, wording a Wish spell is not a common-sense thing. It requires careful planning and analysis, not off-the-cuff intuitive responses, and is thus dependent on Intelligence.
Look at the D20 definition of Wisdom, if you don't believe me:
While Intelligence represents oneís ability to analyze information, Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of oneís surroundings.
...Intelligence is, by far, the closer match to the task at hand.


Intelligent but unwise people artfully word their contingencies ... toward a foolish and ill-conceived end result. Then wise people point out, "But they could just do this." "Oh, I didn't think of that," stammers the "intelligent" person. That's a cute vignette that, unfortunately, is wrong. It would, instead, work this way:
An Intelligent but unwise person would artfully word his Wish...when he could have solved the problem without using a Wish in the first place, if he had just applied a little common sense. Then wise people point out, "But they could just do this." "Oh, I didn't think of that," stammers the "intelligent" person.
An highly-Intelligent person would word his Wish artfully--his failing is in not seeing that there was a common-sense solution that didn't need a Wish in the first place.

Chronos
2007-10-12, 03:57 PM
Trying to contingency against all the ways the wizard could be tricked or forced into an impending AMF might be going into "complicated or convoluted" triggering conditionsPersonally, I would word a Contingency as "If I am rendered incapable of casting spells with verbal and somatic components". This covers me if I get stunned, or rendered unconscious, or brought into a Silence spell, or immobilized. I figure, if I, as a wizard, can still cast spells, I don't have much to worry about, but if it ever happens that I can't cast most of my spells, I'm pretty screwed. Depending on how quickly the Contingency reacts, and whether the focus enters the field before or after my head, this might also trigger on an Antimagic Field.

The real problem with Contingency, is what the reaction it prompts is. A popular choice is to Teleport you to a secure location you've prepared. Very well, that's not a bad response when faced with a dire, but unspecified, threat. Except you want that secure location to be someplace intimately familiar to you, to minimize the chance of off-target arrival, which means that you have to spend a fair amount of time there. And the rogue, if he's smart, will be attacking you while you're already in your secure location, which means teleporting to your secure location won't help you.

Aquillion
2007-10-12, 08:42 PM
Personally, I would word a Contingency as "If I am rendered incapable of casting spells with verbal and somatic components". This covers me if I get stunned, or rendered unconscious, or brought into a Silence spell, or immobilized. I figure, if I, as a wizard, can still cast spells, I don't have much to worry about, but if it ever happens that I can't cast most of my spells, I'm pretty screwed. Depending on how quickly the Contingency reacts, and whether the focus enters the field before or after my head, this might also trigger on an Antimagic Field.That won't work. There are no rules for "focus entering the field before or after your head", and the contingency isn't actually on your focus, in any case; it's on you, and you are either inside the AMF or you aren't. If you're inside, the contingency is suppressed like all other magic effects, and can no longer do a thing; if you're outside, the way you worded it, it won't activate.

The only way to ward against AMF with contingency is to try and word it so it triggers when you're about to end up in an AMF... and that's very, very dicy.

Regarding using intelligence (or wisdom) to try and argue to your DM that your character would have worded the contingency properly even though you, the player, did not... no. I still think Wisdom and not Intelligence represents the stat that keeps you from shooting yourself in the foot; but, in any case, there is in fact a specific list in the rules of the effects the stats have in the game, and "fix your character's mistakes for you" is not one of them. Everything else is fluff; you, as the player, are encouraged to RP your high int, but you can't turn around and demand that your character automatically implement solutions to problems that you, the player, are not intelligent enough to come up with on your own.

If you say "I'm going to attack the dragon barehanded!", your 34 int or wisdom does not help; if you foolishly waste your spells or move into a bad position in combat, your high mental stats do not help; if you, the player, word a wish badly, your high mental stats do not help. PCs are under the control of players, not their stats, and an intelligent or wise character under the control of a stupid player is going to continue to make stupid decisions (even though they may show, say, high skill at a variety of tasks, as well as excellent magical abilities.)

Aside from a few specific abilities and a few specific situations that call for intelligence checks (which wish does not), high int has only a handful of rigidly defined non-fluff effects: Skill points, int-based spellcasting, bonus languages, and int-based skills. Those are all. If you want your intelligence stat to matter in any other way, you, the player, must be able to roleplay the stat yourself; 34 int doesn't help you word good wishes any more than having 20 levels in Fighter (theoretically making you one of the most experienced masters of combat in the world) would automatically make you, the player, behave any better tactically when making decisions during a fight.

Otherwise, if you want to go there... Well, you argue that 34 int makes you an expert at reasoning, and therefore you should automatically succeed at wording wishes (or, presumably, anything else you want to do that involves thinking.) But wait! Rogue 20 means that that rogue is a rogue of heroic, nearly godlike skill, capable of stealing from the gods themselves. Ergo, if 34 int lets you automatically succeed at wording a wish, it follows that Rogue 20 will automatically let the rogue come up with a way to, say, steal the focus of your contingency and stab you in the back, even if we players (who are not level 20 rogues) can't think of it ourselves.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-12, 08:55 PM
Then you're arguing against the premise of using stats, not which stat to use. Pick an argument, don't move the goalposts.

No.

There is no reason why I can't first point out that the argument is fundamentally wrong, then go on to say, "Even if that weren't the case, you'd still be wrong because X." I will not refrain from doing so just on your say-so.



Look at the D20 definition of Wisdom, if you don't believe me:

Okay.

Page 9 of the 3.5 PHB:

"Intelligence determines who well your character learns and reasons."

"Wisdom describes a characters willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition."

Page 10 of the 3.5 PHB:

"A smart character (one with high Intelligence) is curious, knowledgeable, and prone to using big words. A character with a high Intelligence but low Wisdom may be smart but absentminded, or knowledgeable but lacking in common sense."

Later in the same passage:

"A character with a low Wisdom may be rash, imprudent, irresponsible, or 'out of it.'"

All of these things describe precisely the people who might botch the wording of a Wish, especially because people who are bright but rash and lacking in common sense frequently outsmart or overestimate themselves and therefore fail to exercise adequate care.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-12, 09:00 PM
Depending on how quickly the Contingency reacts, and whether the focus enters the field before or after my head, this might also trigger on an Antimagic Field.

Here's an interesting angle:

If the field triggers Contingency because it touches your body before your focus, what about the little bit of your body that's in an AMF when you teleport? Can that part of you teleport, or does a chunk of you get sheared off due to being unable to go along for the ride?

Armads
2007-10-12, 09:12 PM
There's really no mystery. This has been covered. Unless a wizard is obsessively hiding out to the exclusion of all else, perfectly mundane skills make finding him or her possible.

If the wizard is obsessively hiding out to the exclusion of all else, a smart DM might begin assigning penalties such as, perhaps:

Gradual loss of spoken language abilities.

Temporary but slowly mounting negative levels, reflecting emotional degradation (isolating yourself to this extent is akin to solitary confinement, which is severely damaging if it goes on indefinitely). It's not that you actually forget how to cast those higher-level spells, it's that you're losing the mental focus you need to do it.

Eventual complete loss of sanity. Lose your character sheet.

Harsh? Sure. Refer to Rule Zero.

Therefore, a wizard can be killed by an assassin because of DM Fiat? Well, that's true, but that's not the point, is it. Besides, why would a player character wizard hide to the exclusion of all else and still have a campaign? He wouldn't be adventuring anymore, would he?

EDIT: AMFs don't work on wizards. See invoke magic, a spell from LoM.

Skjaldbakka
2007-10-12, 09:17 PM
EDIT: AMFs don't work on wizards. See invoke magic, a spell from LoM.

That is quite irrelevant, since the rogue is only using AMF to ignore the wizard's spell defenses. AMF prevents the wizard's contingency from preventing his attack, turns off the foresight spell preventing the wizard from being flat-footed, and prevents the the wizard from using Celerity to automatically go first, making it likely that the wizard takes a full attack with sneak attack damage. The AMF also turns off any effect the wizard might have to prevent SA from working.

That the rogue is screwed if he lets the wizard get a turn is not a point that I believe is in contention. As I see it, the point in greatest contention is whether or not the rogue can ever get in contact with the wizard in the first place.

Armads
2007-10-12, 09:22 PM
That the rogue is screwed if he lets the wizard get a turn is not a point that I believe is in contention. As I see it, the point in greatest contention is whether or not the rogue can ever get in contact with the wizard in the first place.

I agree with you on that. I was trying to say that even if the rogue came to within, say 5ft of the wizard, the wizard could still escape, by say, casting Fear on the rogue, or using Dim Door to teleport 2000 ft up and casting fly to stop his fall, or using otiluke's resilient sphere to hole himself up until the rogue ends the AMF, since he can't break the sphere without magical tools.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-12, 09:37 PM
EDIT: AMFs don't work on wizards. See invoke magic, a spell from LoM.

Invoke Magic takes a swift action to cast (it's not an interrupt), fills a precious 9th-level spell slot (you want to keep one 9th-level slot always filled with a very situational spell? ... oooookay), and only allows you to cast one 5th-level or lower spell.

It does not prevent the AMF from shutting your Contingency down.

It does not prevent the AMF from shutting your Foresight and other buffs down.

It does not allow you to cast Celerity, as you just used a swift action. Therefore, you can't use it to "always go first" and do the Celerity/Time Stop cheese combination. Besides, your Foresight isn't working because you're in an AMF, so if it's a competent rogue, you begin the encounter flatfooted in a surprise round, then roll initiative for the regular round if you're still up at that point.

So yes, AMFs do work on wizards.

Worse, a rogue with Darkstalker, Hide in Plain Sight, and sufficiently good stealth skills will never be visible to you, even if you somehow win initiative after the surprise round. (Good luck; the rogue probably has a way better initiative bonus than you do.)

Well, I suppose you could go swift action -- cast Invoke Magic, followed by a standard action to cast some sort of light spell, which might reveal the rogue for a moment. Good job; you just wasted your turn because the light's just casting more shadows in different locations anyway, now it's the rogue's turn again, and you just wasted your Invoke Magic to do basically nothing.

Pretty much the best use of your Invoke Magic, if you win initiative, is to Teleport out.

Armads
2007-10-12, 09:42 PM
Well, what if i cast Fear on the rogue. You're never going to make your save in an AMF, since your base will mod is +6, and your wis mod is probably +2 or something like that. Or escape, via Dimension Door. I might not be able to beat a rogue when in one of the worse possible cases possible, but I will live. What if the wizard catches the rogue surprised? Can the rogue do anything? Once i get my time stop going, it's all downhill for the rogue.

Isn't it rather ironical (and funny), that the best way a rogue could try to beat the wizard is to use Anti-Magic Field, a SPELL, against it?

Yes, Invoke Magic is situational. But if it saves your life, it's useful. I could also Tumble away from the AMF, and surround myself with a forcecage. There's no way you can break that forcecage.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-12, 10:04 PM
Well, what if i cast Fear on the rogue.

You mean if you beat my initiative?

You can try, but since I took no other move during the surprise round, I took a 5-foot step and hid at the same time (HIPS). I'm right on top of you, so to hit me with the cone, you'll have to guess whether I stepped left or right. Don't guess wrong ...

If I'm at least 21st level and used a tome at some point to boost my Dexterity, I also have Dextrous Will, and it still works in the AMF ... in which case you just wasted your turn, and I win.

If you win initiative, if you target the right location, and if I fail my save, I'm panicked and flee. If I fail my save the next round (Slippery Mind), I continue to flee. I take a -2 to my skills, but otherwise I can and in fact must use them to help escape, so your odds of finding me aren't that hot. You may as well have just teleported out.


Isn't it rather ironical (and funny), that the best way a rogue could try to beat the wizard is to use Anti-Magic Field, a SPELL, against it?

Sort of, but there's a reason UMD helps make rogues so good. And rogues are, after all, all about using everything at hand to steal victory from the jaws of defeat.


Yes, Invoke Magic is situational. But if it saves your life, it's useful. I could also Tumble away from the AMF, and surround myself with a forcecage. There's no way you can break that forcecage.

I don't have to. If you waste your turn doing that, I'll just follow you, hidden. The AMF now surpresses the Forcecage, and if I like, I can use my remaining standard action to sneak attack you again. If I have Spring Attack, I can do it and then hide again immediately (remember, you tumbled away, so you were moving at half speed), and we're right back where we started, only you have even fewer hit points than before.

What's worse, if I have Staggering Strike (I should; it's a darned good feat), you can't even get that Forcecage off. Not that it makes any difference. I'd like you to actually, since you're wasting a spell and an expensive material component for literally nothing.

Armads
2007-10-12, 10:25 PM
Read the rules please. Forcecages are not suppressed by AMFs.





If I'm at least 21st level and used a tome at some point to boost my Dexterity, I also have Dextrous Will, and it still works in the AMF ... in which case you just wasted your turn, and I win.

If you're 21st level, I have epic spellcasting. I win. I could also use a fort save or die.



You mean if you beat my initiative?

You used your round casting AMF from your scroll. So i blast you with Fear.



You can try, but since I took no other move during the surprise round, I took a 5-foot step and hid at the same time (HIPS). I'm right on top of you, so to hit me with the cone, you'll have to guess whether I stepped left or right. Don't guess wrong ...


Where are the shadows you're hiding in?



What's worse, if I have Staggering Strike (I should; it's a darned good feat), you can't even get that Forcecage off. Not that it makes any difference. I'd like you to actually, since you're wasting a spell and an expensive material component for literally nothing.

You cannot hit me. You used your round casting Antimagic Field. You don't get a surprise round because I have Foresight active. Therefore, after you cast Antimagic Field and move right up to me, I
a. Tumble away, cast Forcecage, and laugh
b. Cast Invoke Magic, cast Dimension Door and laugh
c. Tumble away, cast Time Stop, and proceed to tap dance for 1d4 rounds, and then cast Greater Invisibility (I have Darkstalker too, so good luck finding me) or just Greater Teleport away. Repeat until you run out of wealth buying scrolls of Antimagic Field. I could also Gate in critters of my choice.
d. Tumble away, Quickened Twinned Disjunction followed by Twinned Disjunction. There's a good chance your field goes boom, and then you make your saves or all your items go boom and you have pretty much lost all your equipment.

Skjaldbakka
2007-10-12, 10:30 PM
IRC, Forcecage is immune to AMF.

As to the wizard getting the drop on the rogue- we are talking about what the wizard does when a rogue gets the drop on him, not vice versa.

As to the rogue using AMF, which is a spell. Rogue's get UMD as a class skill, which is part of the class. AMF is also most powerful in the hands of a rogue, who can easily UMD to use it, and then has a really good capacity to be effective inside it. Especially against a wizard, which is a commoner with a good Will save when inside an AMF.

As to wizard tumbling out- it is unlikely the wizard will get a turn, but if he wins initiative or survives the rogue's full attack, he has made a significant accomplishment, and will probably win. There are several options available to the rogue to prevent the wizard from tumbling out and then casting a spell. Hamstring, for example, or the aforementioned Staggering strike (which I am not familiar with).

EDIT-


You cannot hit me. You used your round casting Antimagic Field. You don't get a surprise round because I have Foresight active. Therefore, after you cast Antimagic Field and move right up to me, I

No.

I have AMF up in preperation for ganking you.
Foresight is shut down by AMF.
Surprise round starts with me stabbing you in the [insert organ here]
I then beat your initiative, because you rely on Celerity/Foresight to go first, and didn't 'waste' a feat on I. Initiative, or prioritize dex.
You may not even be able to get a turn if I took the right feats.
You might not be able to tumble out of the AMF if I took the right feats.
I then full attack with 2WF and SA.
You then die, unless I am horribly unlucky.


d. Tumble away, Quickened Twinned Disjunction followed by Twinned Disjunction. There's a good chance your field goes boom, and then you make your saves or all your items go boom and you have pretty much lost all your equipment.

This is more of a nitpick, but Disjunction doesn't do anything other than break the AMF, as long as it is there. Also, the scroll of AMF is the only magic item I need to have on me for this plan.

Armads
2007-10-12, 10:42 PM
Since you have preparation, I have Invisibility up for running away from you. I also sit around in a forcecage all day long. There's nothing you can really do to make me budge. If you break my forcecage, then I'll just teleport away.

Seriously, what are the chances of a wizard standing in an open field, with only Foresight and a few other AC buffs up for protection, staring vacuously at the open sky. Just to avoid getting killed by a random assassin that turns up, I'll probably be sitting in a forcecage, or invisible.

@Skjaldbakka: Staggering Strike is an excellent (if not rather overpowered) rogue feat that basically makes whatever you sneak attack staggered (as in, nonlethal damage = current hp) with a ridiculously high save that pretty much no one will make. It's from Complete Adventurer and Races of Faerun.

Alternatively, a wizard could use Sculpt Spell to make an antimagic field that surrounds him but does not affect his square. This is an evil, cheesy tactic, though.

A rogue CAN defeat a wizard if the wizard is stupid or careless. The rogue, however, cannot defeat the wizard if the wizard is smart, and knows the rogue is looking for him and trying to kill him, and does not underestimate the rogue.

EDIT: Disjunction disjoins your stuff if it breaks the AMF.

Skjaldbakka
2007-10-12, 10:53 PM
A rogue CAN defeat a wizard if the wizard is stupid or careless. The rogue, however, cannot defeat the wizard if the wizard is smart, and knows the rogue is looking for him and trying to kill him, and does not underestimate the rogue.

If the rogue finds the wizard, and has been planning to kill him, the rogue wins. If the wizard responds to (someone hired an assassin to kill me) with (I'll hide in my forcecage all day), then the wizard is alive, but is still no longer a threat.

I suppose your basic assumption is that the rogue and the wizard both no each other and have it out for each other, specifically. In this case, the rogue is better at hiding than the wizard, because he can be immune to divination via magic items, and actually has the disguise ranks to make it so the wizard can never recongize him. The wizard gets a +10 from disguise self, and likely has no ranks, opposed by the rogue's max ranks in spot if they happen to cross paths (both disguised).

My basic assumption is that the rogue is either a) killing wizards for sport, or b)hired to kill a wizard.

In both of these situations, the rogue has the advantage of anonymity. In the first, he has the advantage of target selection. In the second, he has the advantage of being an assassin specialized in hunting down and killing wizards (and is therefore likely to have the AMF/ gank strategy down pat).


A rogue CAN defeat a wizard if the wizard is stupid or careless. The rogue, however, cannot defeat the wizard if the wizard is smart, and knows the rogue is looking for him and trying to kill him, and does not underestimate the rogue.

. . . and knows exactly how, when, and where the rogue is going to strike. Which he can't, because there is no way to. Well, I suppose he might have hired the rogue to kill him, in order to prove some kind of point.

Armads
2007-10-12, 11:03 PM
The wizard can make himself immune to divinations too, via Mind Blank. And he can sit in MMM all day long.

Skjaldbakka
2007-10-12, 11:06 PM
The wizard can make himself immune to divinations too, via Mind Blank. And he can sit in MMM all day long.

Which means the rogue is winning, unless this is just a competition. A wizard sitting in a MMM all day long isn't a threat to anybody. Heck, it is even better than killing someone, given how eaasy it is to get ress'd by level 20.

Employer: This wizard has been meddling in my operations for too long. I want you to take care of him for me.
Assassin: He won't bother you again.

weeks later . . .

Assassin: I have forced the wizard into a life of solitude in a prison of his own making. I will be watching over your operations to eliminate him as soon as he shows his face.

Armads
2007-10-12, 11:15 PM
But the employer is bleeding cash to keep paying the assassin, unless the assassin took the money right at the start, and is now cursing himself for accepting so little for so much hassle. The moment the assassin stops bothering the wizard, he can resume meddling.

Manir
2007-10-12, 11:30 PM
Which means the rogue is winning, unless this is just a competition. A wizard sitting in a MMM all day long isn't a threat to anybody. Heck, it is even better than killing someone, given how eaasy it is to get ress'd by level 20.

Employer: This wizard has been meddling in my operations for too long. I want you to take care of him for me.
Assassin: He won't bother you again.

weeks later . . .

Assassin: I have forced the wizard into a life of solitude in a prison of his own making. I will be watching over your operations to eliminate him as soon as he shows his face.

Actually, this doesn't solve the problem of the wizard. The wizard could leave the MMM at any time fully buffed, Greater Teleport to ANY LOCATION HE HAS EVER SEEN and do whatever he wants before running away.

Also, since the Wizard is affected by mind blank, it's going to be really hard to track him.

Kaelik
2007-10-12, 11:33 PM
A) If the Wizard is a Necropolitian then your sneak attack still doesn't matter, and I'm not going to be staggered.
B) What buffs do you think the Wizard has up? If he would notice the disappearance of a single one (His flight for example, probably foresight, elemental body or similar strengthening buff, not to mention all his magic items giving out at the same time) then your surprise round ends as soon as you stop moving. That means the best you can hope for is a single attack on a charge (in the surprise round.) After that, roll for initiative. If the Wizard gets to go, he can tumble out and cast any number of things. (Teleport/Forcecage/DD/could fly above your level.)

Yes Staggering Strike might be able to save you, but that's only if he isn't a Necropolitain. And you are missing (besides a way to find out where the Wizard is) the fact that a Wizard has all day flight. As such, if he is in the air, you can't do anything to reach him with your AMF.

Zeful
2007-10-13, 01:01 AM
What I don't understand is the assumption that the wizard is a MENSA member and the rogue is a bumbling fool or some villiage idiot. On average however, the rogue is a canidate for spell casting themselves due to the moderate Int attention the class gets.

Now as for the tactics, the rouge is capable of catching a wizard off guard unless the wizard is consistantly monitering everyone in existance. Now the rogue off to kill the wizard isn't being monitered. A UMD rouge has a high Cha and most likely has enough ranks in Gather Information (15-23 for an average of 28-36) to learn everything about her target. His fears, childhood friends, past missions, the list of spells he's ever cast in public etc. With this information she walks into the local theives guild and requests all the information they have on him. One or two days later the info comes in and gives her a list of frequented places. Spend a week casing each location and you have found your target. Set up either a Dimensional lock or AMF for the wizard to walk into (Nystul's Magic Aura to hide the Spell's aura) and then jump him for a surprise TWF from behind him (lack of spot and listen mean that he can't see/hear you.) for 1d6+1+10d6 sneak attack per attack (average 39.5 damage per attack and you've got 4) likely killing him instantly (average of 91.5 hp assuming a +2 Con mod) in an AMF it's garrunteed due to flat-footed and unarmored ac of 10-13? (all your spells don't work and your unlikely to be wearing armor.) So the rogue just doesn't have to roll 1's (+4 natural mod to dex isn't unreasonable what with the tomes and wishes for increases) and her attacks hit, wizard dies a bloody death. If it doesn't he can't effectivally fight back and dies in the next round.

Armads
2007-10-13, 01:12 AM
Have you read the previous posts on how the wizard can counter the AMF?

Also, now you're assuming the wizard is a bumbling fool or a village idiot, while the rogue is a MENSA member.

The wizard also has foresight, so you can't get the jump on him. Also, you'll draw attention to yourself with your gather information checks, and you cannot discern information that is pretty much unavailable.


Check: An eveningís time, a few gold pieces for buying drinks and making friends, and a DC 10 Gather Information check get you a general idea of a cityís major news items, assuming there are no obvious reasons why the information would be withheld. The higher your check result, the better the information.
If you want to find out about a specific rumor, or a specific item, or obtain a map, or do something else along those lines, the DC for the check is 15 to 25, or even higher.
Action: A typical Gather Information check takes 1d4+1 hours.
Try Again: Yes, but it takes time for each check. Furthermore, you may draw attention to yourself if you repeatedly pursue a certain type of information.


It's pretty obvious a 20th level wizard doesn't want people to know about his past, since he's quite a likely target for assassinations and all, isn't it?

EDIT: Spend a week casing each location and you have found your target.

Won't it be weird if the wizard notices the same person at his common locations every week? And what if, the wizard conducts his business in his castle.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-13, 01:41 AM
You know what? Nevermind the rest of this argument -- where are you people getting the idea that forcecage is immune to AMFs?

Page 200: "Certain spells, such as wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall, remain unaffected by antimagic field (see the individual spell descriptions)."

Okay, well, I didn't see forcecage listed there, so let's check the spell description!

Page 233: "Like a wall of force spell, a forcecage resists dispel magic, but it is vulnerable to a disintegrate spell, and it can be destroyed by a sphere of annihilation or a rod of cancellation."

Again, no mention of forcecage resisting an antimagic field. Dispel magic is not an antimagic field.

"Read the rules, please"? Okay. Done. Unless I have an outdated book here or have managed to miss something, the rules seem to agree with me.

It's somewhat moot because you're probably not going to survive long enough to cast the forcecage anyway, and you won't be able to do it at all against a rogue with Staggering Strike. I don't know why you'd do it in the first place, since the best thing you could do with your one spell if you did win initiative is teleport out and regroup.

Armads
2007-10-13, 01:45 AM
Page 233: "Like a wall of force spell, a forcecage resists dispel magic, but it is vulnerable to a disintegrate spell, and it can be destroyed by a sphere of annihilation or a rod of cancellation."

Again, no mention of forcecage resisting an antimagic field. Dispel magic is not an antimagic field.

Read them again. You forgot to read lower, where it says

: This version of the spell produces a 20-foot cube made of bands of force (similar to a wall of force spell) for bars. The bands are a half-inch wide, with half-inch gaps between them. Any creature capable of passing through such a small space can escape; others are confined. You canít attack a creature in a barred cage with a weapon unless the weapon can fit between the gaps. Even against such weapons (including arrows and similar ranged attacks), a creature in the barred cage has cover. All spells and breath weapons can pass through the gaps in the bars.

It is like a wall of force. Walls of force resist antimagic field.

EDIT: Like what Kaelik said, a wizard could have continuous flight, which means the rogue cannot catch him, and

It's somewhat moot because you're probably not going to survive long enough to cast the forcecage anyway.


It's somewhat moot because you're probably not going to survive long enough to cast the forcecage anyway, and you won't be able to do it at all against a rogue with Staggering Strike. I don't know why you'd do it in the first place, since the best thing you could do with your one spell if you did win initiative is teleport out and regroup.

You cannot reach me in 1 round. You do not get a surprise round because I have foresight. You cannot render my foresight useless with AMF unless you are within point blank range of me. You cannot close to point blank range because combat has not started yet and I would stop you from moving towards me via Contingency, forcecage, whatever I want that was casted beforehand. You cannot start combat with a surprise round because I have foresight.

I could also be an undead wizard and thus become immune to staggering strike.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-13, 01:51 AM
Read them again. You forgot to read lower, where it says


It is like a wall of force. Walls of force resist antimagic field.

But it is not wall of force. A tabby is like a siamese, but they're not actually the same cat.

"Oh, but they meant ..."

HOGWASH. You're all making this fuss about the exact rules as written, then using that to justify wizards as indestructible gods, then dismissing any suggestion that the DM might have a say in it. Well, the rules as written do not say -- anywhere -- that forcecage functions like a wall of force with respect to antimagic field. They only say it's "like" antimagic field. Modenkainen's disjunction is "like" dispel magic, but they're sure as hell not the same spell, nor do they work exactly the same.

Zeful
2007-10-13, 01:52 AM
Have you read the previous posts on how the wizard can counter the AMF? Yeah, but I doubt that willing walking into a hidden AMF is going to allow you to get an Invoke Magic off before you're already skrewed.


Also, now you're assuming the wizard is a bumbling fool or a village idiot, while the rogue is a MENSA member. I thought a change of pace was in order.


The wizard also has foresight, so you can't get the jump on him. Also, you'll draw attention to yourself with your gather information checks, and you cannot discern information that is pretty much unavailable. Only if you fail the checks and have to retry, a good UMD build has a good charisma so you can cash in on the Cha synergy and get a 26 mod to the check, and if you look at the Bardic Knowledge check you can find the childhood name of a world renown wizard for a what? 30? I've got to roll a 4. Appropriate Knowledge skill? 30. Again a four. Now I want to get the mighty wizards childhood nickname, I go to his home town and talk to people there, they have no reason to withold the info thus a 10, I automatically succeed. I ask if they know where he hangs out they might not know, but they can tell me alot about who he was, giving me a baseline of where to start looking.
As for foresight, like the Invoke Magic issue, it's likely he won't realize he's freely walked into a AMF untill you attack him on the surprise round. The important thing is he's got no idea the size of the AMF, was it Widened? Cast with the Mage as the Epicenter? Have more of them sprung up? Or is it a Dimensional Locked area? Nystul's magic aura prevents anyone from finding out. How can you avoid something you don't know is there?



It's pretty obvious a 20th level wizard doesn't want people to know about his past, since he's quite a likely target for assassinations and all, isn't it? but his family and friends will be happy to talk about him making the assassins more informed.


EDIT: Spend a week casing each location and you have found your target.

Won't it be weird if the wizard notices the same person at his common locations every week? And what if, the wizard conducts his business in his castle.

10 Ranks Disguise and now you're a different person every day.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-13, 01:53 AM
You do not get a surprise round because I have foresight. You cannot render my foresight useless with AMF unless you are within point blank range of me. You cannot close to point blank range because combat has not started yet and I would stop you from moving towards me via Contingency, forcecage, whatever I want that was casted beforehand. You cannot start combat with a surprise round because I have foresight.

Hello, stealth?

You're not aware of the rogue until after she's already at point-blank range, and AMF is shutting down your defenses. You can't just prevent closure to point-blank range by the sheer awesomeness of your Contingency or the Forcecage you think you're going to get to cast, despite being completely unaware of the impending encounter.

Edit: As for rogues being MENSA members, there are very good reasons for you to prioritize Intelligence as a rogue. They're called skills. As a rogue, even if you start with max Intelligence and are human, you will never have enough skill points to do everything you'd like to do. Ever.

Armads
2007-10-13, 03:48 AM
How can the rogue close with the wizard when the wizard is flying. Don't forget the wizard can also turn invisible. The wizard can surround himself in a force cage, it doesn't really give him major penalties.

EDIT:


Yeah, but I doubt that willing walking into a hidden AMF is going to allow you to get an Invoke Magic off before you're already skrewed.

Hello, flight?


Cast with the Mage as the Epicenter? Have more of them sprung up? Or is it a Dimensional Locked area? Nystul's magic aura prevents anyone from finding out. How can you avoid something you don't know is there?


AMF isn't purely beneficial to the rogue. It removes the dimension lock. For the last question, look below

Armads
2007-10-13, 03:53 AM
You're not aware of the rogue until after she's already at point-blank range, and AMF is shutting down your defenses. You can't just prevent closure to point-blank range by the sheer awesomeness of your Contingency or the Forcecage you think you're going to get to cast, despite being completely unaware of the impending encounter.

Foresight


This spell grants you a powerful sixth sense in relation to yourself or another. Once foresight is cast, you receive instantaneous warnings of impending danger or harm to the subject of the spell. You are never surprised or flat-footed. In addition, the spell gives you a general idea of what action you might take to best protect yourself and gives you a +2 insight bonus to AC and Reflex saves. This insight bonus is lost whenever you would lose a Dexterity bonus to AC.
When another creature is the subject of the spell, you receive warnings about that creature. You must communicate what you learn to the other creature for the warning to be useful, and the creature can be caught unprepared in the absence of such a warning. Shouting a warning, yanking a person back, and even telepathically communicating (via an appropriate spell) can all be accomplished before some danger befalls the subject, provided you act on the warning without delay. The subject, however, does not gain the insight bonus to AC and Reflex saves.
Arcane Material Component: A hummingbirdís feather.


You're all making this fuss about the exact rules as written, then using that to justify wizards as indestructible godsrogues as indetectable creatures, then dismissing any suggestion that the DM might have a say in it. Well, the rules as written do not say -- aneverywhere -- that forcecage functions like a wall of force with respect to antimagic field. They only say it's "like" antimagic field. Modenkainen's disjunction is "like" dispel magic, but they're sure as hell not the same spell, nor do they work exactly the same. that foresight warns the wizard and the wizard is never surprised or flat-footed. The wizard receives warnings about the rogue trying to kill it, and casts invisibility, uses the overland flight it cast that morning (or flies via natural flight or something), and when the rogue tries to fly up, it realizes it can't because it's trapped in it's own AMF.

namo
2007-10-13, 05:13 AM
I still don't get how the rogue finds the wizard who is also completely different from day to day.

Day 1 : A bird on the plane of High Trees
Day 2 : An ooze at the bottom of the sea
Day 3 : A child going to school in Waterdeep (she listens to her inner child)
[...]
If the wizard is wearing a "20th level wizard" badge and goes every day to the same coffee shop at 8 AM, sure.

More seriously, if she is interfering with the activity of criminal boss or a high lord, she would have Veil+Shapechange up while walking in the streets ; nondetection to prevent divinations from working, and Permanent Arcane Sight because that's a must anyway. [Yes, I'm probably forgetting other things...]
How does the rogue find her ?

If he wants to go around undetected, he better hide all the time. Wait, that's no life ! He can't even communicate meaningfully with people !
Hey, Mr Rogue, the shady character you're speaking to may be the wizard you're asking him about. (Ok, technically, Spot and Sense Motive allow him to sense something's strange - I just thought the mental image was great. :smallbiggrin:)
[Sorry, this paragraph was non-serious again.]

Another great way to avoid an AMF is to go through the walls (incorporeality or etherealness) or the ground (same or Earth Glide).

Ragna
2007-10-13, 10:17 AM
Armads, I might want to inform you that foresight does not inform you how far before it tells you. It says you receive it instantaneously, not the point in time before the action is done that you receive the aforementioned information.

Of course since you people are going by the exact wording of the RAW, there are enough. In fact, I'm rather sure a majority of the people would agree that when they say "Like wall of force" It means "Very freaking similar to a wall of force spell"

Dausuul
2007-10-13, 10:26 AM
Which means the rogue is winning, unless this is just a competition. A wizard sitting in a MMM all day long isn't a threat to anybody.

Bwah ha ha! Yeah, right. See my earlier post about the wonderful uses of greater planar binding.

Moreover, the wizard has plenty of tactics to deal with the rogue; hell, if he's willing to burn the cash and/or XP for a wish, he can do the following:

#1. Summon a marilith with greater planar binding and order her to follow this plan to kill the rogue when he appears, then return to the Abyss without taking any action to harm or inconvenience the wizard. As payment, offer 50% of the plunder from the rogue's corpse; since the rogue is a 20th-level character with appropriate WBL, that's a whole lot of loot. Repeat daily until a marilith agrees.
#2. Give the marilith a scroll of anti-magic field. Have her ready an action to use it with her UMD as soon as the rogue appears.
#3. Cast six walls of force to construct a kind of poor man's forcecage around the marilith. (Normally I'd just cast a regular forcecage, but I'm using wall of force here so that there is no possible claim that AMF will affect it.)
#5. Use a scroll of wish to transport the rogue into the cage. (See the "Transport Travelers (www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm)" option.) The marilith uses her readied action to cast AMF from her scroll.
#6. The marilith now has 13 rounds in which to shred the rogue, before the first wall of force wears off. This should be plenty.
#7. Once the rogue dies, let the marilith take her share of the loot, then take the rest and sell it to recoup the cost of the scroll of wish and the scroll of anti-magic field. Emerge with a hefty profit.

What does the rogue do against this? He's locked in a box with a hungry marilith and all his magic is shut down. AMF specifically does not affect wall of force, and it won't send the marilith away because planar binding is a calling spell rather than a summoning. She can't use her SLAs, but she doesn't need them to Cuisinart a magic-less rogue at close quarters.

Once the wizard knows about the rogue, it's really no contest. The rogue's only chance is to take the wizard off guard.

Ragna
2007-10-13, 10:46 AM
Right, and speaking of summons, the wizard lets loose an infinite number of titans to pummel the rogue into nothingness with gate

Chronos
2007-10-13, 11:43 AM
Just to avoid getting killed by a random assassin that turns up, I'll probably be sitting in a forcecage, or invisible.So you routinely spend 1,500 GP every single day for the rest of your life? In that case, the rogue's job is even easier: Just wait until you've pawned off all of your magic items and your impenetrable fortress to feed your Forcecage addiction before striking. Assuming 20th-level wealth by level, it'd only take about a year and a half.

Which reminds me: Just how many 9th level spell slots do wizards get, anyway? From this thread, I'm reading that Every True Wizard will have Foresight up all day: That takes at least two slots. Every True Wizard will keep an Invoke Magic prepared, in case of AMF. Every True Wizard will have Timestop prepped, to unleash a killer multi-round combo. Every True Wizard will have Wish, in case something unexpected comes up. Every True Wizard has Disjunction (a multiply-metamagiced Disjunction at that, however that's managed). Last I checked, a 20th level wizard only gets a base of four 9th-level spells per day. Specialization could boost that to 5, and an extremely high Int could get it to 6. Where the heck are you getting all of these spell slots?

CrazedGoblin
2007-10-13, 11:46 AM
Bwah ha ha! Yeah, right. See my earlier post about the wonderful uses of greater planar binding.

Moreover, the wizard has plenty of tactics to deal with the rogue; hell, if he's willing to burn the cash and/or XP for a wish, he can do the following:

#1. Summon a marilith with greater planar binding and order her to follow this plan to kill the rogue when he appears, then return to the Abyss without taking any action to harm or inconvenience the wizard. As payment, offer 50% of the plunder from the rogue's corpse; since the rogue is a 20th-level character with appropriate WBL, that's a whole lot of loot. Repeat daily until a marilith agrees.
#2. Give the marilith a scroll of anti-magic field. Have her ready an action to use it with her UMD as soon as the rogue appears.
#3. Cast six walls of force to construct a kind of poor man's forcecage around the marilith. (Normally I'd just cast a regular forcecage, but I'm using wall of force here so that there is no possible claim that AMF will affect it.)
#5. Use a scroll of wish to transport the rogue into the cage. (See the "Transport Travelers (www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm)" option.) The marilith uses her readied action to cast AMF from her scroll.
#6. The marilith now has 13 rounds in which to shred the rogue, before the first wall of force wears off. This should be plenty.
#7. Once the rogue dies, let the marilith take her share of the loot, then take the rest and sell it to recoup the cost of the scroll of wish and the scroll of anti-magic field. Emerge with a hefty profit.

What does the rogue do against this? He's locked in a box with a hungry marilith and all his magic is shut down. AMF specifically does not affect wall of force, and it won't send the marilith away because planar binding is a calling spell rather than a summoning. She can't use her SLAs, but she doesn't need them to Cuisinart a magic-less rogue at close quarters.

Once the wizard knows about the rogue, it's really no contest. The rogue's only chance is to take the wizard off guard.

is this filed inder "Owned" in the spell compendium??:smalltongue:

Ragna
2007-10-13, 12:52 PM
Wizards don't sit in forcecages, thats only for battle. Most of the time, you sit in your magic mansion, where no one can touch you. While your gated army destroys the enemy. All that at level 17 too.

Oh, and no money required.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-13, 02:10 PM
How can the rogue close with the wizard when the wizard is flying.

By picking a moment when the wizard is near a shadow and, if need be, also flying. It's not like rogues can't use magical items that bestow flight, too.

For that matter, if the wizard drifts near a tree or something, simply climbing might do it.

Or ... are you telling me that this wizard only spends all of his time up in the clouds? Well if so, then how the hell does he do anything?


Don't forget the wizard can also turn invisible.

Spot check DC to notice the presence of an active invisible creature: 20. I need a 1.

I ... I think I can make it.

From there, a simple UMDed see invisible solves the "problem." Invisibility's not that impressive, especially at this level. Too easy to defeat.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-13, 02:16 PM
Foresight

... warns you of impending danger, like when a rogue is about to jump out and sneak attack you. So in other words, right before the rogue went to do the sneak attack, you'd be warned and therefore not flatfooted, except ... oops! You're in an AMF now, so it doesn't work.

Just spitting the word "foresight" over and over doesn't change that.

The spell isn't going to warn you about the AMF itself because it isn't actually dangerous in itself, just an inconvenience. Nor is it a spell "specifically targetting you" (that's right out of the rules, page 233, where it describes the kinds of things that set off foresight), it's just an area spell you happened to get into the area of.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-13, 02:41 PM
I still don't get how the rogue finds the wizard who is also completely different from day to day.

Day 1 : A bird on the plane of High Trees
Day 2 : An ooze at the bottom of the sea
Day 3 : A child going to school in Waterdeep (she listens to her inner child)
[...]
If the wizard is wearing a "20th level wizard" badge and goes every day to the same coffee shop at 8 AM, sure.

Spot.

The wizard who does that is making a Disguise check (at a +10 bonus). Assuming I prioritize Spot (I always do; it's too useful not to), can I beat the wizard's Disguise check (bear in mind he takes a penalty for being a different race at least)? I think I can, actually.

Making that check might not tell me what I am seeing, but it will tell me that what I'm seeing is definitely not at all what it appears to be.

Now all I need is to UMD something like true seeing, and I can find out what I'm really looking at.

See, the problem here is that you're using spells that piggyback onto skills without remembering that they do piggyback onto skills. A rogue can pull off that "I'm a new person every day" trick way better than a wizard, actually, in terms of quality of the disguise.


More seriously, if she is interfering with the activity of criminal boss or a high lord, she would have Veil+Shapechange up while walking in the streets ; nondetection to prevent divinations from working, and Permanent Arcane Sight because that's a must anyway. [Yes, I'm probably forgetting other things...]
How does the rogue find her ?

Already told you. Purely mundane skills are unaffected by the likes of nondetection and polymorphing spells that turn wizards into third-rate disguise artists that any competent rogue will immediately see through. Mostly, gathering the right information should be enough. You can change your appearance, but you can't alter your mannerisms because they're unconscious. (Oh, I'm sorry -- you can, but that takes skills like Bluff and Disguise, doesn't it? Nevermind!) Those are the kinds of things people with Sense Motive and Spot at high levels will pick up on, especially since they can also immediately see that your appearance is a fake.

"Gee, could that person who's obviously in disguise and who has the same nervous habits my target is supposed to have possibly be the one I'm looking for?"

By the way, where are you getting all of those 9th-level spell slots?


If he wants to go around undetected, he better hide all the time. Wait, that's no life ! He can't even communicate meaningfully with people !

Lulz.

If the rogue has any serious concerns about being attacked? Disguise + Bluff. And since the rogue can do up mundane disguises, too, spells are irrelevant when it comes to seeing through them. You need skills to do that -- skills a wizard won't have.


Another great way to avoid an AMF is to go through the walls (incorporeality or etherealness) or the ground (same or Earth Glide).

Yes, because that hidden rogue who's finally found her target and UMDed AMF on herself from a distance away, then approached in hiding, is clearly giving you any opportunity whatsoever to notice that there's an AMF present.

But of course, you obviously travel everywhere incorporeal, while shapechanged and flying, while teleporting, with a forcecage around you at all times just in case, in your MMM because going outside might be dangerous, and just in case you need them, you have 143,590 more spell slots, half of them 9th-level, because wizards never run out of spell slots.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-13, 02:55 PM
Bwah ha ha! Yeah, right. See my earlier post about the wonderful uses of greater planar binding.

Moreover, the wizard has plenty of tactics to deal with the rogue; hell, if he's willing to burn the cash and/or XP for a wish, he can do the following:

#1. Summon a marilith with greater planar binding and order her to follow this plan to kill the rogue when he appears, then return to the Abyss without taking any action to harm or inconvenience the wizard. As payment, offer 50% of the plunder from the rogue's corpse; since the rogue is a 20th-level character with appropriate WBL, that's a whole lot of loot. Repeat daily until a marilith agrees.
#2. Give the marilith a scroll of anti-magic field. Have her ready an action to use it with her UMD as soon as the rogue appears.
#3. Cast six walls of force to construct a kind of poor man's forcecage around the marilith. (Normally I'd just cast a regular forcecage, but I'm using wall of force here so that there is no possible claim that AMF will affect it.)
#5. Use a scroll of wish to transport the rogue into the cage. (See the "Transport Travelers (www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm)" option.) The marilith uses her readied action to cast AMF from her scroll.
#6. The marilith now has 13 rounds in which to shred the rogue, before the first wall of force wears off. This should be plenty.
#7. Once the rogue dies, let the marilith take her share of the loot, then take the rest and sell it to recoup the cost of the scroll of wish and the scroll of anti-magic field. Emerge with a hefty profit.

What does the rogue do against this?

Well, first the wizard will need to know of the rogue, which is assuming a lot, but okay, we assumed the other way around, so fine.

Then the rogue, as an unwilling traveler, gets a Will save. She might make that save, but we'll assume that either she fails it, or you keep trying this until you succeed.

Okay, the rogue appears in the makeshift "forcecage." The marilith casts AMF from her scroll and immediately disappears because "summoned creatures of any type and incorporeal undead wink out if they enter an antimagic field" (page 200). The rogue giggles hysterically, disappears into the shadow of a nearby pebble, and either uses one of her magic toys to get out of the cage or just hangs around until it disappears.

Dausuul
2007-10-13, 03:00 PM
Well, first the wizard will need to know of the rogue, which is assuming a lot, but okay, we assumed the other way around, so fine.

I was pointing this out as an explanation for why the rogue only has a chance to win if the wizard doesn't know he's coming.


Then the rogue, as an unwilling traveler, gets a Will save. She might make that save, but we'll assume that either she fails it, or you keep trying this until you succeed.

That's a legitimate point. This tactic can get expensive in wish scrolls. Still, the profit is enough to justify several attempts, and you can always cast it yourself if you really need to twink the DC.


Okay, the rogue appears in the makeshift "forcecage." The marilith casts AMF from her scroll and immediately disappears because "summoned creatures of any type and incorporeal undead wink out if they enter an antimagic field" (page 200). The rogue giggles hysterically, disappears into the shadow of a nearby pebble, and either uses one of her magic toys to get out of the cage or just hangs around until it disappears.

I already covered this. The marilith is a called creature, not a summoned creature. She stays.

Kaelik
2007-10-13, 03:01 PM
Did you notice Nowhere girl that you made to separate posts and pretended that they where both in different universes? A rogue can not use magic items to fly because he is in an AMF. Or alternatively, he can't attack the Wizard because Foresight-Celerity. You see, AMFs have disadvantages. One is inability to fly unless you are a race that can do so naturally.

And also, with the disguise spot example/polymorph. It doesn't matter if you can spot the Wizard. Because you aren't going to be in the same place as him very much. The thing is gather information is largely useless since a Wizard can teleport to the places he needs to go, can be disguised when he gets there or during the times he walks outside, and finally, there is almost no reason for him to go to the same place several times in a row. With Greater Teleport, all cities might as well be one big one to the Wizard. You can't gather information that the Wizard assures no one ever knows.

Zeful
2007-10-13, 03:10 PM
Well, first the wizard will need to know of the rogue, which is assuming a lot, but okay, we assumed the other way around, so fine.

Then the rogue, as an unwilling traveler, gets a Will save. She might make that save, but we'll assume that either she fails it, or you keep trying this until you succeed.

Okay, the rogue appears in the makeshift "forcecage." The marilith casts AMF from her scroll and immediately disappears because "summoned creatures of any type and incorporeal undead wink out if they enter an antimagic field" (page 200). The rogue giggles hysterically, disappears into the shadow of a nearby pebble, and either uses one of her magic toys to get out of the cage or just hangs around until it disappears.

The marilith gets SR which means the caster level check has to roll under 4 for the marilith to stay. but the caster (the marilith) can willfully fail the check and stay(I think). It's a stable strategy(again thinking).

EDIT: @Dausuul: It doesn't matter if it's a called creature, it'd still pop without SR, which it has, and it can willfuly fail the caster level check from the UMD'd AMF.
Antimagic Field (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm)
Abjuration
Level: Clr 8, Magic 6, Protection 6, Sor/Wiz 6
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 10 ft.
Area: 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you
Duration: 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: See text

An invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you. The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines.

An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spellís duration.

Summoned creatures of any type and incorporeal undead wink out if they enter an antimagic field. They reappear in the same spot once the field goes away. Time spent winked out counts normally against the duration of the conjuration that is maintaining the creature. If you cast antimagic field in an area occupied by a summoned creature that has spell resistance, you must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against the creatureís spell resistance to make it wink out. (The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.)

A normal creature can enter the area, as can normal missiles. Furthermore, while a magic sword does not function magically within the area, it is still a sword (and a masterwork sword at that). The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting (unless they have been summoned, in which case they are treated like any other summoned creatures). Elementals, corporeal undead, and outsiders are likewise unaffected unless summoned. These creaturesí spell-like or supernatural abilities, however, may be temporarily nullified by the field. Dispel magic does not remove the field, though Mage's Disjunction might.

Two or more antimagic fields sharing any of the same space have no effect on each other. Certain spells, such as wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall, remain unaffected by antimagic field (see the individual spell descriptions). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.

Should a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field.

Arcane Material Component
A pinch of powdered iron or iron filings.
Emphasis mine

@Kaelik: The wizard can only insure that noone knows his secrets/habits by killing everyone who knows. So he's going to insinerate his entire villiage just to keep his family and friends from bragging about his acomplishments? If that's the case he's got more to worry about from clerics of St. Cuthbert than rogues.

Kaelik
2007-10-13, 03:20 PM
EDIT: @Dausuul: It doesn't matter if it's a called creature, it'd still pop without SR, which it has, and it can willfuly fail the caster level check from the UMD'd AMF.

Calling is not summoning. It is an instantaneous conjuration effect, as such, the Maralith stays.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-13, 03:25 PM
I already covered this. The marilith is a called creature, not a summoned creature. She stays.

To my knowledge, that does not matter. "Summoned creatures of any type" should render that argument irrelevant. If I'm mistaken, please reference page numbers for the text that proves me incorrect.

It doesn't, however, render this one irrelevant:


The marilith gets SR which means the caster level check has to roll under 4 for the marilith to stay.

Good point. I didn't think of that.


but the caster (the marilith) can willfully fail the check and stay(I think). It's a stable strategy(again thinking).

I'm kind of doubtful about that -- at least I'm not aware of any mechanism that allows for it. (Someone please correct me -- with referenced page number -- if I'm wrong.)

But you're right about the spell resistance. I'm assuming the wizard scribed this scroll himself? So CL 20 ... yes, need a 4 or less. Okay, there is a chance (20 percent) that the marilith stays. That's not exactly a great chance, but it's enough to add an element of real danger.

Wait, no. Hold on. The wizard can create the item at a lower caster level, as long as it's the minimum needed to cast the spell. That's CL 17, so it's possible to bump the odds of the marilith staying up to 35 percent. That's decent enough to make this an intimidating tactic, but if it fails, it's awfully expensive to have done all for nothing. Too, if she stays, we just got the answer to how the rogue will find you. Unless you leave immediately.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-13, 03:27 PM
Did you notice Nowhere girl that you made to separate posts and pretended that they where both in different universes?

I did make a mistake there. Well, I'm human after all. :smalltongue:

At least keep in mind, though, that the rogue doesn't actually need an AMF up 24/7 -- only when she's moving in for the kill. The wizard can't just do nothing but fly forever (well, he could just fly high up in the sky all of the time and then go to his MMM to sleep, but then he never accomplishes anything, ever, so why bother pursuing the loser at all?).

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-13, 03:41 PM
To my knowledge, that does not matter. "Summoned creatures of any type" should render that argument irrelevant. If I'm mistaken, please reference page numbers for the text that proves me incorrect.

Nevermind. I found the text myself. Page 172 of the PHB.

You're right. I concede the point. The marilith would stay.

I do still see one major flaw in your plan, though: you're summoning a marilith in the first place. They're great for anti-rogue tactics, sure (since they have such ridiculous skill checks), but that can also work against you. Remember, they have excellent Charisma scores and even better Diplomacy scores. Their Bluff checks are amazing, too. Depending on how much your DM wants to take an "if you can do it, so can they" approach to social skills, you might call the marilith only to end up being played.

Aquillion
2007-10-13, 04:41 PM
I should point out, again, that in order for this question to be even remotely interesting, we have to assume that the wizard is behaving like a typical adventurer, wandering around doing things, and not using any special or complicated defenses--a single buff, or two, but nothing as absurd as trying to stay invisible or nondetectable 24/7, or hiding in a forcecage or MMM, or trying to keep up an eternal mind blank. No actual player does any of those things. Very few even bother to keep up Foresight 24/7... that and a reasonable contingency are the outer limit of the constant defenses the wizard can reasonably use. If you're using more than that, you're basically admitting a loss, since the wizard is being forced to devote a significant portion of his resources and time to simply counter the theoretical threat of a rogue. That isn't being powerful, that's barely managing to break even.

The wizard does not get a fortress. The wizard does not get a million guards and a pet dragon. This isn't "generic rogue 20 vs. BBEG", this is typical party rogue against typical party wizard. Carrying a scroll of AMF and maxxing UMD is quite normal for a generic party rogue. Hiding in a MMM all day is not even remotely normal for any party wizard I've ever heard of.