PDA

View Full Version : Sincerely interested. Rant



denthor
2019-06-16, 11:07 AM
Why would you choose a magic user/ mage/wizard whatever the common useage is now as your first character for a game you have never played.

Honestly it is the most complicated thing to play. Picking your spell for each day. Only to find out your wrong retreat and choose again. You can not stand very much in the way of damage. Your very limited at low levels you come on line around 7th or 8th. Long time to invest with low payout.

As a player we someone show up I played 5e. I want to run a wizard. Told him prepick which spells you have before combat starts.

He responds why I just cast whatever fits the situation. Oh your a sorcerer. :annoyed::confused:He responds I a wizard. Then pick them he never came back. Thankfully.

Explain this please!

zinycor
2019-06-16, 11:13 AM
Ok.

First, there is no setting In the game for difficulty, so as a player you don't really know ahead of time if certain class is harder to play than any other, it might be, it might not.

Second, maybe the player just wants to role-play as a powerful caster, but doesn't really care for the mechanics of it.

Third, just teach the player the mechanics related to the game and he will have to abide by them, or play another class.

denthor
2019-06-16, 11:31 AM
Your being reasonable when it happens with 6 people out of 8. I am wondering why. Do not care if they come back most do not. When they find out we want the spells for the day/battle written out. Your spell book written out.

I like the table I play at gritty difficult we play do it right or character dead.

Is this not the case at other tables. Are DMs really easy?

Lord of Shadows
2019-06-16, 11:40 AM
Is this not the case at other tables. Are DMs really easy?

Unfortunately, some are...

Plus, some people who decide to try TTRPGs come in with pre-conceived ideas on how things should work based on other things - computer/console games, comics, anime, movies, etc. When the "real world" of the game turns out to not be like that, they get frustrated and decide to go do something else.
.

zinycor
2019-06-16, 11:46 AM
Your being reasonable when it happens with 6 people out of 8. I am wondering why. Do not care if they come back most do not. When they find out we want the spells for the day/battle written out. Your spell book written out.

Haven't seen that problem, in my experience new players get the gist of the game quite quickly.

I would just explain to them that the game has rules, and this magic system has proven to work for this particular game and there is no plans to change it at your table. Take some more time to explain the rules and be patient and understanding of their mistakes, and you should be allright

Kaptin Keen
2019-06-16, 12:06 PM
Your being reasonable when it happens with 6 people out of 8.

6 out of 8 sounds unreasonably high. Looking at it from the perspective of statistics only, it might be that the common factor here is you.

I don't know you, but from your post it seems you have .. some opinions about what people should play. And it's not like I'm blind to the argument. Spellcasters do take more work to play right than say, a barbarian. But if a new player feels a wizard is what he wants to play, you should help him play a wizard, not tell him to play something else.

People play these games for the sense of wonder and magic and stuff. You really can't define for them that they should get those things from a simpler class. But you can make the class they feel like playing, simpler for them.

Khedrac
2019-06-16, 12:30 PM
Why would you choose a magic user/ mage/wizard whatever the common useage is now as your first character for a game you have never played.
Answer: Because for first-time players they have no idea about game and rules complexity - they are thinking about what type of character they want to play (which is a good thing for new players to be thinking about).


As a player we someone show up I played 5e. I want to run a wizard. Told him prepick which spells you have before combat starts.

He responds why I just cast whatever fits the situation. Oh your a sorcerer. :annoyed::confused:He responds I a wizard. Then pick them he never came back. Thankfully.

Explain this please!
There's a good chance they don't know what the in game difference between the two - and are choosing the class name which fits their mental image.


Honestly it is the most complicated thing to play.
This depends on the system. Yes, D&D wizards are hard to play well (and sorcerers are much easier), but in 3.5 unless you are good at mental arithmetic, fighters are the hardest to play for most players (90% of the players I play with will power attack for whatever temporary bonuses they have "to hit" to keep the maths simple).

denthor
2019-06-16, 01:38 PM
6 out of 8 sounds unreasonably high. Looking at it from the perspective of statistics only, it might be that the common factor here is you.

I don't know you, but from your post it seems you have .. some opinions about what people should play. And it's not like I'm blind to the argument. Spellcasters do take more work to play right than say, a barbarian. But if a new player feels a wizard is what he wants to play, you should help him play a wizard, not tell him to play something else.

People play these games for the sense of wonder and magic and stuff. You really can't define for them that they should get those things from a simpler class. But you can make the class they feel like playing, simpler for them.


Yes after 25 years I have opinions. We have one person at the table who helps with character. They send them to him he take 3 to 4 hours to craft min/max the ever loving sh out of the character. 7 intelligence high dex. These people end up not liking the 1 trick pony. I can design in real life my charisma is low so they do not come to me.

Funny thing I was in sales for 25 years car sale most personality needed job in the universe. Got really good by phone.

When I start something new my first question is

what is the easiest to play? I have always been different that way.

zinycor
2019-06-16, 01:48 PM
Yes after 25 years I have opinions. We have one person at the table who helps with character. They send them to him he take 3 to 4 hours to craft min/max the ever loving sh out of the character. 7 intelligence high dex. These people end up not liking the 1 trick pony. I can design in real life my charisma is low so they do not come to me.

Funny thing I was in sales for 25 years car sale most personality needed job in the universe. Got really good by phone.

When I start something new my first question is

what is the easiest to play? I have always been different that way.

Well, I for one don't pick my characters based on the difficulty of playing them. And haven't really seem many people do so.

As an advice you Could work together with the min maxing guy and try to make a character that the new player would like.

Satinavian
2019-06-16, 01:49 PM
Why would you choose a magic user/ mage/wizard whatever the common useage is now as your first character for a game you have never played.

a) Because magic users tend to be great at "doing things beside fighting", which i enjoy.

b) Because most iconic phantastic concepts with some sort of supernatural power are best realized with a magic user, so a lot of possible character inspirations end there

c) Because the magic system is usually something unique to the system while the non magic classic feel more or less the same as in most other systems, they just use some new rules to do exactly the same stuff.

Kaptin Keen
2019-06-16, 01:49 PM
Yes after 25 years I have opinions. We have one person at the table who helps with character. They send them to him he take 3 to 4 hours to craft min/max the ever loving sh out of the character. 7 intelligence high dex. These people end up not liking the 1 trick pony. I can design in real life my charisma is low so they do not come to me.

Funny thing I was in sales for 25 years car sale most personality needed job in the universe. Got really good by phone.

When I start something new my first question is

what is the easiest to play? I have always been different that way.

For someone who claims to be sincerely interested, you don't seem to listen very much to what's being said. Min/maxing isn't helping - it is, very specifically, min/maxing, and only helpful if min/maxing is what is being asked for.

If you want to help someone unfamiliar with the rules, you start by asking them what type of character they'd like to play. Not what class, that's only helpful to someone who already knows.

So they answer I want to play a mighty wizard! because they've watched too much Lord of the Rings, and you explain to them well, there are two types of arcane spell casters, wizard and sorcerers. They each work like this.

And so on. And when you get it right, you know righ away, because it's when you don't need to go online and post threads like this one.

D+1
2019-06-16, 02:29 PM
Why would you choose a magic user/ mage/wizard whatever the common useage is now as your first character for a game you have never played.

Honestly it is the most complicated thing to play.
The answer, of course, is you wouldn't (or at least shouldn't). If you've never played the game and it's your first character, then you're only making it harder to LEARN the game by picking the most complicated character to play. Others at the table who actually care if you ever come back to play some more should make their first piece of advice to you to choose a character class that is SIMPLE to play. You can then learn by doing in playing your simple PC while learning by observing other more complicated classes by observing and asking questions. You should also tell new players that no matter what class they choose to start with they have a players rule book with about 300 pages of rules. Even if you can disregard HALF of that it's still a huge amount of reading and learning that you're committing to in the long term.

Think of it like learning to swim. You don't start with a dive into the deep end because finding you then struggle to keep your head above water is likely to put you off swimming for the rest of your now very short life. You enter from the shallow end and learn to swim by first learning to float without actually being out of depth.

Or eating food. If you insist on biting off the biggest chunk of the game as possible to start with then you must also accept that you're going to choke, spit things out once or twice, and find it difficult to chew and swallow before you're one day ready to eat 74 hot dogs in 10 minutes.

zinycor
2019-06-16, 02:46 PM
shortened for quote

I completely disagree, the whole appeal of role-playing games is that you get to play a whole other character of your choice. That goes against the idea of forbidding certain classes to new players.

I say make the player know that certain classes require more work, dedication or study, help them on the more complex mechanics and be inviting for the new player to explore the game and mechanics.

icefractal
2019-06-16, 03:07 PM
I'd disagree that new players should go with Fighter. Especially not if they're building the character themselves - Fighter is very easy to end up being nigh-useless if you're not familiar with the feats available. And the narrowness of its capabilities can be very frustrating for a player who wants to do more social / non-combat stuff.

For being a "mage type" in 3.5, I'd say that Warlock is an easy start, but actually Sorcerer isn't bad if someone helps with choosing your spells known. The advantage of casters is that for most spells, you don't really need to optimize a bunch of feats and items coming together to make it good - Black Tentacles, for example, just does what it does, and even if you picked all your character options out of a hat, at least that one will work like it's supposed to.

Exception: Blaster mages have more need to Voltron **** together. This makes them one of the least newbie-friendly types, which is too bad because they're one of the more likely for people to gravitate to, IME.

graymagiker
2019-06-16, 03:12 PM
I think you've answered your own question.


Why would you choose a magic user/ mage/wizard whatever the common useage is now as your first character for a game you have never played.

Emphasis mine.

They've never played the game so they don't know that it's more complicated than other classes/options. And really, why should they? From other replies, it seems you are playing specifically 5e but have experienced this problem in other editions. It is not a requirement, or even common, that certain options be either more powerful or harder to play.



When I start something new my first question is

what is the easiest to play? I have always been different that way.


You acknowledge that most people do not seek the easiest option to play. We don't play games, especially not TTRPG, in order for things to be easy. Instead, you might ask why do new players think that magic user/ mage/wizard whatever will be the most fun to play? Do you always play fighters or other classes? Do your experienced players?

I will also highlight this tidbit:


Do not care if they come back most do not.

So there is no problem. They play once, decide they don't like your table, and don't come back. The problem solves itself, unless you do care and you think they would be more likely to return if they played another class.

KineticDiplomat
2019-06-16, 03:16 PM
Given you're playing D&D, why wouldn't a new player come in as a magic user?

1) The setting is about magic. Loads of magic. Magic critters, magic people, magic plotlines. The big bad and the big good come from magic, and magic is the source of all cool things. Most of the tactical options revolve around how and what to magic. There is every single setting incentive you could imagine to play as a magic user.

2) If he did any cursory glances at the internet, he would quickly see that D&D classes mostly fall in the "Unbelievably awesome, kinda good, and utter crap" piles of how useful they are in a fight. And since D&D has little reward for being crap in a fight - you won't say, be a hacker or scholar or face - to pick a "lesser" class may seem disheartening. Especially since what little reward there is pales next to the constant string of encounters where you fight. The "unbelievably awesome" crowd are all mostly...magic users.

2b) Virtually every "skill" class is replaceable with utility spells. Why would a new player opt for planned obsolescence?

3) D&D martials are mind-numbingly boring. You roll a hit die and a damage die a round until someone falls over. As the game goes on you get to...wait for it...roll more dice with higher modifiers. Whereas magic users get to shape reality, control the battlefield, solve magical puzzles, apply lateral thinking on what to do with their range of fantastical abilities. You get to umm...roll 2d6+2? For possibly a year?

Zakhara
2019-06-16, 03:49 PM
IMC (I run OD&D), Magic-Users are potentially the most popular class. Even brand-new players find the concept attractive, despite their weak start.

I've yet to encounter players who take issue with the Vancian system, but my answer is simply "game balance" should it come to that. The decision-making and planning that goes into Magic-Users really appeals to some.

MeimuHakurei
2019-06-16, 04:15 PM
First of all, don't conflate "more options and mechanics" with "harder to play". A 3.5 Warrior has the least mechanics to worry about of all the classes, but because it's so insanely constrained, you're going to heavily struggle in all but the easiest encounters, which any real class would completely walk over.

Also most spell choices are what is useful in the vast majority of situations and a well put together list covers many different challenges along with avoiding overlap. The whole retreat to repick spells would only ever happen if a noncombat situation requires a certain solution the rest of the party doesn't have available - and even that is mitigated heavily (3.PF lets you carry a bunch of scribed scrolls for situational stuff while 5e lets you cast Ritual spells even when not prepared).

Finally, the ease with which Clerics, Druids and Wizards can repick their spells means they're very beginner friendly since you're free to pick as you like and be able to make different choices if you're not happy with your selection. Martial-types with a bad pick of archetype or fighting style or feat are stuck with it forever.

Lord of Shadows
2019-06-16, 05:00 PM
Explain this please!

One other method we have used for new players (especially those completely new to TTRPG's) is to have them watch for a session (or a few), and allow questions at smoke breaks and such. Sometimes they can't wait to ask, and that's ok most of the time. Usually the newbie sits away from the table, but on some occasions we have had the newbie actually sit next to a current player and observe. Sometimes we have a more experienced player sit next to the newbie their first few times actually playing and "mentor" them. These can ease a newbie into the world of RPG's, and takes some of the "newbie frustration" away from the DM. YMMV...
.

Rynjin
2019-06-16, 06:17 PM
Because people like to cast spells in a fantasy magic spell game.

It's not that complicated, really.

Spore
2019-06-16, 08:00 PM
Why would you choose a magic user/ mage/wizard whatever the common useage is now as your first character for a game you have never played.


Because I could punch a punching bag in the face very hard IRL. Magic is impossible.

Basically the same reason why I almost never play humans, as I am a human myself. *beepboop*

Peelee
2019-06-16, 08:31 PM
As a player we someone show up I played 5e. I want to run a wizard. Told him prepick which spells you have before combat starts.

He responds why I just cast whatever fits the situation. Oh your a sorcerer. :annoyed::confused:He responds I a wizard. Then pick them he never came back. Thankfully.


Funny thing I was in sales for 25 years car sale most personality needed job in the universe.
So the person expressed what they were interested in playing (a mage) and how they wanted to play it (by casting spontaneously), and you didn't do anything to sell them on the Sorcerer except for say "oh, that then"? Wouldn't your 25 years experience in car sales have kicked in to let you instead say, "oh, hey, it sounds like you want to do X, which is actually better handled by a different class. Here, let me explain the big differences to you" or something similar?

Basically the same reason why I almost never play humans, as I am a human myself. *beepboop*

https://media.giphy.com/media/PLFUhxdKbAAEM/giphy.gif

Mr Beer
2019-06-16, 11:29 PM
He responds why I just cast whatever fits the situation. Oh your a sorcerer. :annoyed::confused:He responds I a wizard. Then pick them he never came back. Thankfully.

Explain this please!

As described, it sounds like a potential new recruit to the D&D community thought it would be cool to pretend to be a magical wizard, maybe like Gandalf or something similar. You instructed him to design the character using game knowledge that he doesn't currently possess. He decided that playing D&D isn't as much fun as he'd hoped and didn't come back.

denthor
2019-06-17, 12:10 AM
So the person expressed what they were interested in playing (a mage) and how they wanted to play it (by casting spontaneously), and you didn't do anything to sell them on the Sorcerer except for say "oh, that then"? Wouldn't your 25 years experience in car sales have kicked in to let you instead say, "oh, hey, it sounds like you want to do X, which is actually better handled by a different class. Here, let me explain the big differences to you" or something similar?


https://media.giphy.com/media/PLFUhxdKbAAEM/giphy.gif

No!

For various reason car sales folk that are the most successful tend to be shall we say scum in real life as well. The best of them are addicts of some kind. The they wouldn't let me leave is because you are there next money for there addictions.

I am not an addict I just rose to a position where it was my way or here is the business card of someone that wants to spend 56 hours of your life in a showroom. You will save 700 dollars. I flat told people you got the best deal on the table don't waste your time with me, go buy it. I hate polite conversation with a forced smile from either one of us. Surprise my Customer Satisfaction Index over a 5 year average was 92.7 %.
I got a phone call from a father who sent his daughter in to buy a car. His exact words you kept your word never had a cars saleman do that before.

Satinavian
2019-06-17, 01:23 AM
No!

For various reason car sales folk that are the most successful tend to be shall we say scum in real life as well. The best of them are addicts of some kind. The they wouldn't let me leave is because you are there next money for there addictions.

I am not an addict I just rose to a position where it was my way or here is the business card of someone that wants to spend 56 hours of your life in a showroom. You will save 700 dollars. I flat told people you got the best deal on the table don't waste your time with me, go buy it. I hate polite conversation with a forced smile from either one of us. Surprise my Customer Satisfaction Index over a 5 year average was 92.7 %.
I got a phone call from a father who sent his daughter in to buy a car. His exact words you kept your word never had a cars saleman do that before.

No one cares about your car-dealership. This is about D&D and your job is utterly irrelevant to it.

Elysiume
2019-06-17, 03:02 AM
The first character I played in Pathfinder was a cleric and the last RPG I'd played was Exalted 2e around six years prior. Someone who hadn't played since D&D 2e played a sorcerer, two people who'd never played an RPG before played a druid and a bard. Why? Because we wanted to play those classes. Any rule issue/confusion we had was talked out and we played the characters from 1 to 17.

I agree with most of the posts in the thread so far. Sounds like someone wanted to play a wizard, a disagreement was handled poorly from at least one side, and you decided to make a sweeping proclamation that new players shouldn't be allowed to play casters.

MoiMagnus
2019-06-17, 03:09 AM
I like the table I play at gritty difficult we play do it right or character dead.

Is this not the case at other tables. Are DMs really easy?

From my limited experience, yes they are. And yes I am.
At my tables, non-stupid play is enough to survive. And except very bad luck or very stupid move, I will not inflict you permadeath (risky choices you knowingly make can still induces permadeath) and rarely permanent negative things.
Good play will be rewarded by stuff better than "just survive".

Djiini
2019-06-17, 04:21 AM
{scrubbed}
I started Caster first time I played, didn't run into any problems.

TheYell
2019-06-17, 05:56 AM
My question is, why do you accept new players blindly?

noob
2019-06-17, 06:55 AM
casters are not that hard but if you start at level 1 pick a druid or cleric unless your team have enough of those then you might pick a wizard if you prefer.
druids and clerics have more hp and armour(at level 1 mage armor lasts only 1 hour and spends one of your precious spell slots) and that helps at low level a lot+ the companion of the druid is like one extra character(at level 1 at least).
and if you do not like the fluff with druids you can refluff it without too much difficulty provided your gm is tolerating(even refluff it into scholarly guys if you like those).
You can have a 4 wizard team but the first levels might be harsh(like how you will need to diversify spell preparation and get a lot of backup options like oil or small round spheres of metal or mirrors or chalk and a mule or 3 and so on)

Cikomyr
2019-06-17, 07:29 AM
My question is, why do you accept new players blindly?

This. Mixed with this:



I like the table I play at gritty difficult we play do it right or character dead.


Is really make me puzzled.

My good sir, you want to be harsh and challenging and gritty to your players. You expect them to be optimized. Fine

But then, you accept a group of newbies in your group and expect them to perform at the level you would expect RPG veterans to perform.

You have to act the way your desires take you. Don't take newbies if you expect people to know their ****. The end.

Otherwise, if you want to take in the newbies, well you have to take it easier in your challenges at first. Scale the difficulty with your player skill and performance. Otherwise you will just tire them of D&D because you will have proven to be a bad DM. .

A good DM find the sweet spot of challenge VS player capacity. You don't decide what that sweet spot is, you learn it. Strong players will have a very harsh sweet spot.

Peelee
2019-06-17, 07:44 AM
No!

For various reason car sales folk that are the most successful tend to be shall we say scum in real life as well. The best of them are addicts of some kind. The they wouldn't let me leave is because you are there next money for there addictions.

I am not an addict I just rose to a position where it was my way or here is the business card of someone that wants to spend 56 hours of your life in a showroom. You will save 700 dollars. I flat told people you got the best deal on the table don't waste your time with me, go buy it. I hate polite conversation with a forced smile from either one of us. Surprise my Customer Satisfaction Index over a 5 year average was 92.7 %.
I got a phone call from a father who sent his daughter in to buy a car. His exact words you kept your word never had a cars saleman do that before.

You're missing the point; it doesn't matter if you sold cars or toasters, the point i was making is that part of being a salesman is knowing what the other party wants and trying to help them do that. If someone is looking at an SUV but everything they're saying indicates a minivan would be better, you wouldn't say, "well the best deal I can do for a minivan is X" while they're still looking at the SUV without any segue, would you? It'd be far better to say something like, "well, a lot of what you're saying a, minivan does better, let's go over a breakdown of their differences" to help them realize that they probably do want the minivan despite their initial impressions of just seeing SUVs everywhere.

Now turn the metaphorical SUV into a wizard and minivan into a sorc.

noob
2019-06-17, 07:50 AM
You're missing the point; it doesn't matter if you sold cars or toasters, the point i was making is that part of being a salesman is knowing what the other party wants and trying to help them do that. If someone is looking at an SUV but everything they're saying indicates a minivan would be better, you wouldn't say, "well the best deal I can do for a minivan is X" while they're still looking at the SUV without any segue, would you? It'd be far better to say something like, "well, a lot of what you're saying a, minivan does better, let's go over a breakdown of their differences" to help them realize that they probably do want the minivan despite their initial impressions of just seeing SUVs everywhere.

Now turn the metaphorical SUV into a wizard and minivan into a druid.

fixed for you.

zinycor
2019-06-17, 08:10 AM
No!

For various reason car sales folk that are the most successful tend to be shall we say scum in real life as well. The best of them are addicts of some kind. The they wouldn't let me leave is because you are there next money for there addictions.

I am not an addict I just rose to a position where it was my way or here is the business card of someone that wants to spend 56 hours of your life in a showroom. You will save 700 dollars. I flat told people you got the best deal on the table don't waste your time with me, go buy it. I hate polite conversation with a forced smile from either one of us. Surprise my Customer Satisfaction Index over a 5 year average was 92.7 %.
I got a phone call from a father who sent his daughter in to buy a car. His exact words you kept your word never had a cars saleman do that before.

Dude... you are aware that we don't care about your job... are you?

Imbalance
2019-06-17, 08:27 AM
Customer: I want to buy this Porsche.
Denthor: No! You'll drive this Audi, newb, or don't set foot on my lot again.

noob
2019-06-17, 09:14 AM
Customer: I want to buy this Porsche.
Denthor: No! You'll drive this Audi, newb, or don't set foot on my lot again.

or yet
"I want to drive that used car: it looks so cool with that style from the eighties. No you will drive that giant space rocket with magical fool-proofing that does not looks anywhere like the car you like"

denthor
2019-06-17, 09:34 AM
My question is, why do you accept new players blindly?


This DM allows anyone at the table for the last 30 years he has had a continuous game. He owns the hobby store we play at.

Eldan
2019-06-17, 09:55 AM
So, wait. Someone else is the DM, but you are back-seat DMing, policing the other players and scaring them away from the game, but they are the problem here?

zinycor
2019-06-17, 10:04 AM
This DM allows anyone at the table for the last 30 years he has had a continuous game. He owns the hobby store we play at.

My advice would be to stop this continuous game, this is the thing that gets in the way of new players learning the game.

Start a new game with new players so they get to know the mechanics, once they are proficient at the game, invite them to join the big boys table.

Man_Over_Game
2019-06-17, 10:20 AM
Not every game has magic be a difficult aspect of the game.

Take 5e's antecessor, 4th edition D&D. Everyone is built exactly the same, using various levels of powers. Your Fighter uses Powers, as does the Wizard, as does every caster and warrior in the game. Everything is built around the same concept, with casters having more ranged options and explosions, while warriors get stronger and push enemies around.

People don't always know what to expect when they start a new game. 5e has more new players to the table-top RPG experience, and D&D has NEVER had a sensible magic system (except maybe 4e). He should have had a little more knowledge of the system, and actually read the friggin' book, but, assuming that's not a big deal, there's no real reason that he should have expected magic users to be much more complex than a warrior. We know this because many of us have had years of experience, but someone from the outside would just assume everything is equally complicated. Because...that's what makes the most sense, realistically.

Cikomyr
2019-06-17, 10:38 AM
This DM allows anyone at the table for the last 30 years he has had a continuous game. He owns the hobby store we play at.

Wait. You aren't even the DM?

And you come here to rant against players who want to pick up the hobby and don't go at it perfectly? And whine that the DM is being lenient with them because he wants to increase his customer base and the number of people part of the hobby?

I am sorry, but...

https://i.imgur.com/8ubGFLt.gif

You may be.

noob
2019-06-17, 10:52 AM
Not every game has magic be a difficult aspect of the game.

Take 5e's antecessor, 4th edition D&D. Everyone is built exactly the same, using various levels of powers. Your Fighter uses Powers, as does the Wizard, as does every caster and warrior in the game. Everything is built around the same concept, with casters having more ranged options and explosions, while warriors get stronger and push enemies around.

People don't always know what to expect when they start a new game. 5e has more new players to the table-top RPG experience, and D&D has NEVER had a sensible magic system (except maybe 4e). He should have had a little more knowledge of the system, and actually read the friggin' book, but, assuming that's not a big deal, there's no real reason that he should have expected magic users to be much more complex than a warrior. We know this because many of us have had years of experience, but someone from the outside would just assume everything is equally complicated.

simple solution: pick one spell per spell level and only prepare that spell and act as if it was dailies.
Then once Plot happens and that you have one day to prepare and that the plot comes in and says "what you should cast is message"
You can actually cast message!
(your character(by opposition to the player) should be able to guess message is needed when someone comes in and tells it "we need to send a message to the faraway king")

zinycor
2019-06-17, 11:02 AM
Wait. You aren't even the DM?

And you come here to rant against players who want to pick up the hobby and don't go at it perfectly? And whine that the DM is being lenient with them because he wants to increase his customer base and the number of people part of the hobby?

I am sorry, but...

https://i.imgur.com/8ubGFLt.gif

You may be.

It definitely seems that way

Willie the Duck
2019-06-17, 11:24 AM
As a player we someone show up I played 5e.

For being a "mage type" in 3.5,

I think we're having some edition-based issues given where this thread was placed. For those posters who are haven't played 5e, there is indeed a version of the 5e fighter that is damn easy to play right from the jump, and nowhere near as behind the curve as a 3e fighter quickly becomes (which is not to say that there isn't any inter-class balance issues, nor that a bog-standard fighter won't eventually be supplanted by an optimizer's specialty build, just that 'start as a fighter, it's simpler than a wizard' genuinely is a thing in 5e).



As a player we someone show up I played 5e. I want to run a wizard. Told him prepick which spells you have before combat starts.

He responds why I just cast whatever fits the situation. Oh your a sorcerer. :annoyed::confused:He responds I a wizard. Then pick them he never came back. Thankfully.


Your being reasonable when it happens with 6 people out of 8. I am wondering why. Do not care if they come back most do not. When they find out we want the spells for the day/battle written out. Your spell book written out.

Retained for reference


No!

For various reason car <etc.>.

The point that others have used your professed career to highlight is that a salesperson needs to be able to listen, understand viewpoints and knowledge bases different from their own, and communicate. You're not exactly doing a stellar job of any of that here (communication in particular, but I'm assuming you're typing quickly on a phone, or the like). It took us forever just to figure out that you were not the person DMing or saying who 'Told him prepick which spells you have before combat starts,' since you framed it as though you were the DM.

Beyond that, what everyone else has already said is your answer. Someone new to D&D isn't going to know what classes are hard or easy to play, and wizard sounds like something fun to play ("I want to do well at the game, without resorting to having spellcasting at my disposal" is a concept mostly derived from either 1) having played the game before, and thus knowing the fighter/wizard distinction already, or 2) a background in the very specific genre fiction where the wizard character is never the hero, but the mere mortal hero-types they adventure with are). We can go round on this for another 50 pages, but I'm pretty sure that's your answer.

zinycor
2019-06-17, 11:28 AM
I would guess English isn't his first language. (English is my second language btw)

patchyman
2019-06-17, 12:11 PM
Lots of good answers here. I will add a point that I donít think has been covered.

This seems to be more a player issue than a class issue. I recently ran a 6th level one-shot (5th) with mostly newbies. The Champion Fighter, despite being played by a person who has played RPGs off and on for the last 15 years, required a great deal of handholding. The wizard, played by a person whose RPG experience was a single Savage Worlds campaign, made a couple of mistakes, but generally had a pretty good grasp of the mechanics.

Best thing to do (if possible) assign a veteran to each newbie to assist in character creation and mechanics.

TheYell
2019-06-17, 01:59 PM
If you have at least 3 players you have enough to experiment with new games without allowing the general public to sit in and botch it up. You guys should have your own table and admit only people who answer two minutes of questions about their experience.

If newbies complain, tell them you are ruthless bastards without compassion or compunction and they will not survive or have fun as newbs. Which is the truth apparently.

Also about your job, you must have sold one helluva vehicle to get away with that approach.

Kaptin Keen
2019-06-17, 04:16 PM
This DM allows anyone at the table for the last 30 years he has had a continuous game. He owns the hobby store we play at.

You know - that sounds like a really nice guy. Someone I'd like to play with.

Ok, this thread has now become Everyone Vs. Denthor, and I think that's maybe not fair. Unless he's actually trolling? He does seem unusually .. resistant.
{scrubbed}

denthor
2019-06-17, 05:35 PM
You know - that sounds like a really nice guy. Someone I'd like to play with.

Ok, this thread has now become Everyone Vs. Denthor, and I think that's maybe not fair. Unless he's actually trolling? He does seem unusually .. resistant.

{scrubbed}
{Scrubbed innocuous comment that now makes no sense}
English the only language.

I was upset and resorted back to how things are in head.

What I forgot is when writing or speaking you should do both of these.

Not to be understood, but so you are not misunderstood.


Good points were made just bothers me the pattern that forms. There is a core group of 4.


One is mentally handicapped in real life. Character by min/max dwarf 9 barbarian/ 1 ranger/2 rouge 12 levels total oh yeah favored enemy Orc.

2 is,addicted to his video games he claims if his character had a better then 7 intelligence. [min/max made the character] he would talk more.
Fighter 8th level dwarf character is currently working on becoming an atheist. Abandon 2 quest for two different dieties.

3 is the creationists of all characters that are not mine. The min/max currently rouge/druid 6th total do not know the split 1/2 orc with 150 foot dark vision? Don't ask me how.

4 then me. I am the party wizard 10th blue1/2 orc I am normally the cleric.

There are 2 others that float in and out consistently 7th level bard and 6th level human monk.

Inner party conflict is a given. Two 1/2 orc ,2 dwarves.

zinycor
2019-06-17, 06:54 PM
If you hate the other players so much, you should leave the group and find a new one

Edit: btw, the only casters you mentioned are you, the min/max guy and a bard. So I don't see the situation you created this topic for.

King of Nowhere
2019-06-17, 09:14 PM
No!
I flat told people you got the best deal on the table don't waste your time with me, go buy it. I hate polite conversation with a forced smile from either one of us. Surprise my Customer Satisfaction Index over a 5 year average was 92.7 %.

perhaps the problem here is that you are blindly using your skill at car selling in a place where it's not that relevant.
I hit a similar wall when I quit university research and became a high school teacher. I applied my expertise at talking at conferences in my first lesson. Nobody understood anything, and it took me a month to explain properly all the concepts I crammed in 30 minutes the first time. Because university and high school are different environments, with different people.

Same with you and cars and d&d. your car customer may not know exactly the details of cars, but he knows what cars are supposed to do. he knows how to drive them, he knows how to put the bags in the luggage compartment. So you can give him a car and he will be happy that you choose well for him.
A newbie at d&d has no flippin idea how to use a character. He only has the faintest idea what a character is supposed to do, and this idea is most often wrong. And giving him an optimized build makes things even worse, because optimized builds are harder to use. Everyone can declare an attack or cast a fireball. positioning to make the most of an ubercharger or ubertripper, or comboing spells, it takes a lot more knowledge. worse, if you lack this knowledge, you'll be even less useful than a poor build. you cast a fireball, at least you do some damage. you have a bunch of spells with complicated effects you don't really understand, each one tailored to take advantage of a specific weakness you are not aware of. You can't just hand down a build to a new guy and then yell at him (or kill his character) when he does not understand what he's supposed to do.

You have to be aware that yyou are playing a difficult game and the new guy will take time to adjust. every time he says something, you are listening with your brain of old player. No, step down. Remember he does not know what his own class does. Remember that there are so many concepts, he cannot be expected to remeber them all from the start, so you can't get angry at him because he forgot something you explained before.

Be kind. Be understanding. Be patient. Be supportive, but don't just take action away from the player. Give him advice; tell him that he could do several things, and tell him the likely outcomes of the things he can do. Now, some people still won't come back. Most people don't want to put so much effort into a hobby. Some people just aren't suited to sit around a table and talk through a game of make-believe. Some are toxic people. But some will learn. Again, be patient. they won't master the game in a month.
If you cannot do that, try to not interact much with the new player, and let someone more competent handle it. No offence meant. everyone has different skills. I am a good teacher, but I'd never be able to sell a car. You look like you're the opposite.

Kaptin Keen
2019-06-18, 01:01 AM
{scrubbed}

Sorry, joking. Ok, suggested solution:

You're a salesguy. Your only marketable skill (I'm a sales guy too, so I'm allowed this opinion) is the ability to manipulate people. Manipulate players into playing what you want them to play.

If someone wants to start out as a wizard, just tell them: Well, wizards are cool, and powerful - eventually - but they take a lot of book keeping. You need to memorize spells, learn spells, stock and track spell components, and you're really squishy if you wind up in melee. Sorcerers are like wizards, just flashier. They don't have quite the range of spells, but they have none of the book keeping, and they're a little less vulnerable. Or .. play a barbarian - barbarians are cool. The hit like a truck, they have rage (which is honestly just a spell that makes them better in combat), and they chew up wizards like no one's business.

And so on, you get the picture.

Spore
2019-06-19, 03:22 AM
Your only marketable skill (I'm a sales guy too, so I'm allowed this opinion) is the ability to manipulate people. Manipulate players into playing what you want them to play.


I can't say how ANGRY this advice and this general approach towards life makes me. Manipulating people towards doing something is an incredibly annoying tactics that ranges from annoying to downward abusive. As an aside, I would love for you to adjust your sales technique (because good service generates a positive reputation of you and your dealership and not just immediate sales) but that is not the topic here.

But manipulating people with gameplay choices and how to spend their free time has GOT to be the scummiest thing I have read on this forum and it is honestly heartbreaking to read this on here.

Kaptin Keen
2019-06-19, 03:50 AM
I can't say how ANGRY this advice and this general approach towards life makes me. Manipulating people towards doing something is an incredibly annoying tactics that ranges from annoying to downward abusive. As an aside, I would love for you to adjust your sales technique (because good service generates a positive reputation of you and your dealership and not just immediate sales) but that is not the topic here.

But manipulating people with gameplay choices and how to spend their free time has GOT to be the scummiest thing I have read on this forum and it is honestly heartbreaking to read this on here.

Hmm - you're clearly reading something into that I never intended.

Helping, or guiding, is manipulation. Always, without exception. And that's what I'm suggesting: If Denthor is convinced a new player will be happier playing something else (say a sorcerer over a wizard), then apply those sales skills to explain how a sorcerer will be a better choice.

I see nothing inherently bad in helping other people. I'm a sales guy, but I work in employment, helping out-of-work people find a job and get an income. When I advise them to, for instance, take an education, or tell them how to write their applications, or take the hard talk about how their personal hygiene isn't helping their chances to find work ... that's manipulation. I do not feel bad about that. I help people get better lives, ever day or every week of every year.

And when I worked in actual sales, I helped people make the right purchases. That means honestly making the case for my product, and letting the customer make his or her own choice. Which is precisely analogous to recommending a sorcerer over a wizard.

I state again: I see nothing inherently wrong in helping people. But I could have picked the word motivate rather than manipulate. It's synonymous, but has a better rep.

Morgaln
2019-06-19, 05:14 AM
Hmm - you're clearly reading something into that I never intended.

Helping, or guiding, is manipulation. Always, without exception. And that's what I'm suggesting: If Denthor is convinced a new player will be happier playing something else (say a sorcerer over a wizard), then apply those sales skills to explain how a sorcerer will be a better choice.

I see nothing inherently bad in helping other people. I'm a sales guy, but I work in employment, helping out-of-work people find a job and get an income. When I advise them to, for instance, take an education, or tell them how to write their applications, or take the hard talk about how their personal hygiene isn't helping their chances to find work ... that's manipulation. I do not feel bad about that. I help people get better lives, ever day or every week of every year.

And when I worked in actual sales, I helped people make the right purchases. That means honestly making the case for my product, and letting the customer make his or her own choice. Which is precisely analogous to recommending a sorcerer over a wizard.

I state again: I see nothing inherently wrong in helping people. But I could have picked the word motivate rather than manipulate. It's synonymous, but has a better rep.

The disconnect here is that this not the commonly understood definition of manipulate; to quote from several online dictionaries (emphasis mine in each case):


(disapproving) to control or influence someone or something, often in a dishonest way so that they do not realize it


to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage


If you say that someone manipulates people, you disapprove of them because they skilfully force or persuade people to do what they want.

Therefore, manipulate always carries the connotation of acting against the will or interest of the one manipulated and is not synonymous with helping them. Letting the customer make their own choice based on accurate information is expressily not manipulating them.

Kaptin Keen
2019-06-19, 07:41 AM
The disconnect here is that this not the commonly understood definition of manipulate; to quote from several online dictionaries (emphasis mine in each case):

Therefore, manipulate always carries the connotation of acting against the will or interest of the one manipulated and is not synonymous with helping them. Letting the customer make their own choice based on accurate information is expressily not manipulating them.

Hm, yes. I've seen other dictionaries emphasise cleverness rather than underhandedness - and the negative connotations are somewhat less in danish, which is my primary language. For all that, I grant you that manipulation has a clear negative undertone. Even when used ironically, which I hope it's clear was my intention - I am, after all, a sales guy myself, and I have no low opinions of neither myself nor the work I do. Nor btw of the profession in general, even if a certain segment of telemarketing companies irk me immensely.

I do think the discussion of the word manipulation is off-topic though.

Maybe I should post a thread about manipulation, and the ways it's employed as a sales tool. That should end well =)

denthor
2019-06-19, 09:35 AM
Hm, yes. I've seen other dictionaries emphasise cleverness rather than underhandedness - and the negative connotations are somewhat less in danish, which is my primary language. For all that, I grant you that manipulation has a clear negative undertone. Even when used ironically, which I hope it's clear was my intention - I am, after all, a sales guy myself, and I have no low opinions of neither myself nor the work I do. Nor btw of the profession in general, even if a certain segment of telemarketing companies irk me immensely.

I do think the discussion of the word manipulation is off-topic though.

Maybe I should post a thread about manipulation, and the ways it's employed as a sales tool. That should end well =)


I must have something dark in me the conversation between the two you makes me laugh. Your both brighting my morning.

Manipulation is indeed a skill. It takes a lot more me first then I have in me. I am not the type to advance myself at the expense of others. Was turned down for a job because even as the most qualified candidate.
I was told "Your not married, he is."

Me "he is not qualified."

"He needs the money to keep the wife and kid fed while at the bar with me" our boss.

That was manipulation he got the job by drinking with the boss. Extracted a drunk promise.

It ended badly 15 years later for the boss. The other went on to a stellar career doing nothing.

zinycor
2019-06-19, 11:10 AM
I must have something dark in me the conversation between the two you makes me laugh. Your both brighting my morning.

Manipulation is indeed a skill. It takes a lot more me first then I have in me. I am not the type to advance myself at the expense of others. Was turned down for a job because even as the most qualified candidate.
I was told "Your not married, he is."

Me "he is not qualified."

"He needs the money to keep the wife and kid fed while at the bar with me" our boss.

That was manipulation he got the job by drinking with the boss. Extracted a drunk promise.

It ended badly 15 years later for the boss. The other went on to a stellar career doing nothing.

So I guess we aren't talking about role-playing games anymore?

denthor
2019-06-19, 11:40 AM
So I guess we aren't talking about role-playing games anymore?


Depends on the game.

Mutants and Masterminds, rifts, heavy Intrigue, polical or spy infiltration games, they all use manipulation Bluff sense motive and the like.

But D&D not so much this a mindless diversional rent for me. Not to mention it's kind of fun to see where these threads go.

zinycor
2019-06-19, 02:35 PM
Depends on the game.

Mutants and Masterminds, rifts, heavy Intrigue, polical or spy infiltration games, they all use manipulation Bluff sense motive and the like.

But D&D not so much this a mindless diversional rent for me. Not to mention it's kind of fun to see where these threads go.

What?....

What does any of that have to do with the thread at hand?

Lord of Shadows
2019-06-19, 03:15 PM
But D&D not so much this a mindless diversional rent for me. Not to mention it's kind of fun to see where these threads go.

Hmmm... Wait, what??
.

denthor
2019-06-19, 03:31 PM
Lord of shadows threads take on there own life. Go way off topic once the question has been answered.

My question has been answered. So in reality the thread could be locked. Left to die or just be taken in another direction.

I have fun reading the comments. Which why I put rant in the opening. I was venting in the opening.

Found a way to solve the problem, now enjoyed the manipulation comments. Would really like to know more about the Danish language.

So to all have fun go where you feel it needs to go. See I do learn that is much better then what you quoted.

Kaptin Keen
2019-06-19, 11:33 PM
Would really like to know more about the Danish language.

What would you like to know? We're one of the finest languages in the world for bad language, no one swears like a dane. We can basically speak with the swedish and the norwegians - there are differences, but they're not significant. Pronounciation is different, though. We're flat and gutteral, the swedish sing, and the norwegians have their own way of being more musical in their speech than we are.

And of course a lot of danes phrases rubbed off on english when the vikings fooled around in the british isles for a few centuries - and vice versa.