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JNAProductions
2019-07-12, 07:42 PM
Space!















The Space are odd ducks. Being semi-incorporeal creatures of raw telekinetic force is only part of that. The other part is that they have very poor understanding of social norms and attitudes. The two are quite probably related.

As a member of this race, you have the following traits:

Ability Score Improvements
A being such as you is sharp and swift. You gain a +1 bonus to your Intelligence and Dexterity scores.

Age
This race is technically immortal, so long as one maintains their sense of self. As a matter of practicality, most fail around the three or four century mark, and discorporate into nothingness.

Alignment
Tends towards neutral strongly.

Size
You are Medium, but may act as if you were Small whenever it's advantageous by compressing your form. This can only be done if not wearing Medium or Heavy armor.

Languages
Space speak Common.

Speed
Your base move speed is 30'. While technically hovering, you still have to manipulate the ground to move, and as such, this is treated as a normal walking speed.

Intangible Nature
You are a being of telekinetic force. This grants you various benefits:
-You have advantage on saves against Poison, and resistance to Poison damage.
-You have advantage on saves against forced movement.
-You are capable of passing through solid objects, though doing so is quite taxing. As a bonus action, you may go through solid objects (except lead) as if they weren't there. This lasts until the end of your next turn. If you end your turn inside an object, you take 1d10 force damage, and if you become corporeal while inside an object, you are immediately shunted to the nearest open space, taking 1d10 force damage per 5' traveled this way (rounding up). Doing so more than once between rests imposes a level of exhaustion each time you become incorporeal.

Innately Magical
You may cast the Mage Hand cantrip, using Intelligence as your spellcasting modifier, and without requiring any components.

Subrace-Novas
Novas are the bright and eager of this race. They are friendly, if a bit awkward.

Ability Score Improvement
Your Charisma increases by 1.

Awkward, But Charming
You gain proficiency in the Persuasion skill.

Subrace-Nebula
Nebulae are the more contemplative and level-headed of the race.

Ability Score Improvement
Your Wisdom increases by 1.

Knowledgeable
You learn the Guidance cantrip, with Intelligence as your casting attribute.

sandmote
2019-07-12, 09:03 PM
First, your artwork isn't showing up, which I assume is a travesty.

I like the theme of a partially incorporeal race, but you should probably hammer out some more rules on how compressing your form works. Probably "as long as you aren't wearing medium or heavy armor, you can treat your size as one size smaller when squeezing into a smaller space."

The resistance to forces movement should probably also apply to contested checks, and you should specify what happens when failing a single save both pushes and damages you. The only thing coming to mind is the player could roll a second die that acts as advantage for resisting the pushing effect (but treats the damage normally)? That's pretty clunky though.

JNAProductions
2019-07-12, 09:09 PM
No, you're seeing the art right. :P

Yeah, I think a Medium/Heavy restriction would make sense. As a DM, I'd probably allow for (expensive) tailor-made armor that could compress even with heavier types, but as a base, that's good.

And I think just keeping it as "Advantage on saves against forced movement" is okay. How many do damage AND movement? There's Thunderwave, off-hand, but that's all I can think of.

sandmote
2019-07-12, 10:14 PM
NAnd I think just keeping it as "Advantage on saves against forced movement" is okay. How many do damage AND movement? There's Thunderwave, off-hand, but that's all I can think of.There's also thorn whip, but I see your point.

Edit: I checked three other cases before posting and misread thorn whip, so, yeah, I way overestimated how common this case is.

Oncie
2019-07-14, 08:53 PM
Oh man oh boy, what cool quirky little race of space ducks that are not corporeal. Isn't that so quirky and random XD? It rustles my jimmies and rubs my eggplants, bros. Oh how I'd wish that this race would also have a trait about how they can throw exploding lemons or a bit of lore on how they like to eat potatoes and bananas. Wouldn't that just be so radical, my dudes?...

And no, you won't get a serious review for this, because the race isn't serious either, and it's clear no effort was put into it anyway, so why should I put effort into the review?

JNAProductions
2019-07-14, 08:54 PM
Oh man oh boy, what cool quirky little race of space ducks that are not corporeal. Isn't that so quirky and random XD? It rustles my jimmies and rubs my eggplants, bros. Oh how I'd wish that this race would also have a trait about how they can throw exploding lemons or a bit of lore on how they like to eat potatoes and bananas. Wouldn't that just be so radical, my dudes?...

And no, you won't get a serious review for this, because the race isn't serious either, and it's clear no effort was put into it anyway, so why should I put effort into the review?

That's unneededly rude. While the fluff is bare and humorous, the race is designed to be a balanced option for use in homebrew-allowed campaigns.

Illven
2019-07-14, 09:38 PM
Your artwork doesn't show.

I'd be a bit worried, about the possibly of a Nebula monk using their ability to hop through walls shamelessly.

Oncie
2019-07-14, 09:41 PM
That's unneededly rude. While the fluff is bare and humorous, the race is designed to be a balanced option for use in homebrew-allowed campaigns.

For whom, exactly? Seriously, show me one person who would legitemately want to use this race as it is right now. If it's for a joke, all the other players are just going to laugh for 5 seconds and then the joke is gonna get stale, but the fact that your character is an incorporeal duck from outer space is not going to dissapear, and that's just going to ruin the immersion and tension in the campaing. If it's for serious use, I can only imagine the person using the race would re-flavour the space ducks as either being anthropomorphic, or literally as anything else that would also fit the space-ish theme, so why bother with the "UwU, so quirky" theme anyway and not just make this a serious race to begin with? I just don't get it.

Also, as sidenote on the """"""Balance"""""" of this race: just by skimming through it, it looks like a good 40 on the DB scale. And while I agree that DB ratings are not always the most accurate, being almost twice as powerful as any of the PHD races is a HUGE red flag. If you ever decide to use DB for making your brew more balanced, you shouldn't stress about being one or two (Or in some cases even three) points away from the avarege of 25 in either direction. However, if you reach 30, you're really pushing it. If you're past 30, you're really doing it wrong.

JNAProductions
2019-07-14, 09:42 PM
Your artwork doesn't show.

I'd be a bit worried, about the possibly of a Nebula monk using their ability to hop through walls shamelessly.

Reasonable point. Most classes can't do much more than scout with Intangible Nature, since they need equipment, but Monks really don't.

Perhaps add in a clause that halves all damage you deal and grants advantage against any saves you provoke for a turn after you use your ability to pass through objects?

Although, then again, you can't avoid damage if you want to attack that turn. I'd kinda want to see it playtested before I nerf it TOO far.

Thanks though.


For whom, exactly? Seriously, show me one person who would legitemately want to use this race as it is right now. If it's for a joke, all the other players are just going to laugh for 5 seconds and then the joke is gonna get stale, but the fact that your character is an incorporeal duck from outer space is not going to dissapear, and that's just going to ruin the immersion and tension in the campaing. If it's for serious use, I can only imagine the person using the race would re-flavour the space ducks as either being anthropomorphic, or literally as anything else that would also fit the space-ish theme, so why bother with the "UwU, so quirky" theme anyway and not just make this a serious race to begin with? I just don't get it.

Also, as sidenote on the """"""Balance"""""" of this race: just by skimming through it, it looks like a good 40 on the DB scale. And while I agree that DB ratings are not always the most accurate, being almost twice as powerful as any of the PHD races is a HUGE red flag. If you ever decide to use DB for making your brew more balanced, you shouldn't stress about being one or two (Or in some cases even three) points away from the avarege of 25 in either direction. However, if you reach 30, you're really pushing it. If you're past 30, you're really doing it wrong.

So, little context-this is based on a elf subrace I made for a friend. She wanted to play as Space. We had a great time (I was DMing) and, while it was somewhat silly, it was fun. So if you prefer to take your magical elf games super seriously, that's fine-but don't crap on people who choose to be more lighthearted.

As for detect balance, looking at it... (Using this (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vq1kz6PRAbw5LHy6amH-bNb4OuB8DBXL1RsZROt03Sc/edit#gid=0) one-if that's incorrect, please let me know.)

12 from ASI +1/+1/+1
0 from Languages, but I did forget to list them. Let me correct that.
6 from Standard Delayed Magic.
4 from Poison Resistance
0 from Speed
2 from Advantage on saves against forced movement
4 from Advantage against Poison Saves

Subraces get (just features, stat boni already included in standard race write-up):

Nova:
2 from Persuasion

Nebula:
2 from Cantrip

For a total of:
30 exactly. The only feature not accounted for is passing through walls, which I wouldn't rate higher than 5 for anything except Monks, as Illven kindly pointed out.

Hm. Okay, I can reasonably see your complaint about using Detect Balance. But, without any kind of history of homebrew to your name, I'm inclined to trust my own balance-o-meter and Sandmote's than yours. (Sandmote, you don't see any balance issues, right? Just some clarity concerns that I think I cleared up?)

Beyond that, there's still no reason to be rude. It's totally fine to critique my work-critique the HELL out of it. I want it to be balanced and usable at a table without being over- or underpowered.

Lord Raziere
2019-07-14, 10:21 PM
Space!




The Space are odd ducks. Being semi-incorporeal creatures of raw telekinetic force is only part of that. The other part is that they have very poor understanding of social norms and attitudes. The two are quite probably related.

As a member of this race, you have the following traits:

Ability Score Improvements
A being such as you is sharp and swift. You gain a +1 bonus to your Intelligence and Dexterity scores.

Age
This race is technically immortal, so long as one maintains their sense of self. As a matter of practicality, most fail around the three or four century mark, and discorporate into nothingness.

Alignment
Tends towards neutral strongly.

Size
You are Medium, but may act as if you were Small whenever it's advantageous by compressing your form. This can only be done if not wearing Medium or Heavy armor.

Languages
Space speak Common.

Speed
Your base move speed is 30'. While technically hovering, you still have to manipulate the ground to move, and as such, this is treated as a normal walking speed.

Intangible Nature
You are a being of telekinetic force. This grants you various benefits:
-You have advantage on saves against Poison, and resistance to Poison damage.
-You have advantage on saves against forced movement.
-You are capable of passing through solid objects. You may not, however, take any equipment with you-you're intangible, your equipment ain't. In addition, you take 1d10 damage per 5' moved through objects (rounding up). Spending a bonus action while moving reduces the damage to 1d6 per 5', spending your action reduces it to 1d4 per 5', and if you spend both your action and bonus action, you may pass through objects without taking damage at all. Ending your turn in an object, though, results in being immediately shunted to the nearest open space, taking 1d12 points of damage per 5' and leaving you stunned until the end of your next turn.

Innately Magical
All innate spells require no components, and use Intelligence as their spellcasting modifier.
-At level one, you know the Mage Hand cantrip
-At level three, you may cast Magic Missile as a second level spell once per long rest.
-At level five, you may cast Fly at its lowest level once per long rest.

Subrace-Novas
Novas are the bright and eager of this race. They are friendly, if a bit awkward.

Ability Score Improvement
Your Charisma increases by 1.

Awkward, But Charming
You gain proficiency in the Persuasion skill.

Subrace-Nebula
Nebulae are the more contemplative and level-headed of the race.

Ability Score Improvement
Your Wisdom increases by 1.

Knowledgeable
You learn the Guidance cantrip, with Intelligence as your casting attribute.

Nice artwork. conveys exactly what it needs to!

I shall give you a serious review. I know not of how 5e stuff is supposed to be reviewed, and I do not play it much, but I shall endeavor to do it anyways.

I see, so while its technically incorporeal, actually phasing through things has a cost and you need to be careful of how much you use it. I see. a good way to balance that. I guess that also explains why poison and weapons can affect them at all, since if passing through matter can be done but damages you, poison being matter can still possibly damage a Space/spaceling? but its not very likely. the poison is less physically hurt you and more occupying the same space and thus constantly giving the Space! a "headache" I assume and thus if the headache grows too much they discorporate. so it makes sense.

its lack of equipment options I assume intentionally makes equipment-heavy classes probably bad ideas to try? I don't see how you'd play a fighter with this unless you mage hand a weapon everywhere?

but wait if it as the art work shows its invisible, and its this kinetic force with no footsteps to make sound, is it intentionally supposed to make stealth incredibly easy? Or does it have some obvious distinct visual or sound that it makes that you forgot to include? like do Nebula Spaces look like actual nebulas? That would look pretty cool. and are Novas star-like? are they supposed to be very cold small stars and nebulas or invisible space itself? its not too clear, and I don't think you can balance it well without making it more clear what Space! spacelings? spacefolk? actually are because its pretty vague.

JNAProductions
2019-07-14, 10:28 PM
Nice artwork. conveys exactly what it needs to!

I shall give you a serious review. I know not of how 5e stuff is supposed to be reviewed, and I do not play it much, but I shall endeavor to do it anyways.

I see, so while its technically incorporeal, actually phasing through things has a cost and you need to be careful of how much you use it. I see. a good way to balance that. I guess that also explains why poison and weapons can affect them at all, since if passing through matter can be done but damages you, poison being matter can still possibly damage a Space/spaceling? but its not very likely. the poison is less physically hurt you and more occupying the same space and thus constantly giving the Space! a "headache" I assume and thus if the headache grows too much they discorporate. so it makes sense.

its lack of equipment options I assume intentionally makes equipment-heavy classes probably bad ideas to try? I don't see how you'd play a fighter with this unless you mage hand a weapon everywhere?

but wait if it as the art work shows its invisible, and its this kinetic force with no footsteps to make sound, is it intentionally supposed to make stealth incredibly easy? Or does it have some obvious distinct visual or sound that it makes that you forgot to include? like do Nebula Spaces look like actual nebulas? That would look pretty cool. and are Novas star-like? are they supposed to be very cold small stars and nebulas or invisible space itself? its not too clear, and I don't think you can balance it well without making it more clear what Space! spacelings? spacefolk? actually are because its pretty vague.

Thank you, Lord Raziere, for that. Obviously you didn't address the mechanics a ton, but the points you bring up are good.

And equipment-heavy classes work fine with them. You just can't constantly use your movement ability. The only class that can actually use it reasonably offensively is the Monk, since they really work without equipment (and even then, they often get magic gear at higher levels). Casters need their foci or components, martials need their weapons, etc. It was intended to be a mostly scouting ability and occasional "OH CRAP!" button to escape.

As for appearances, first off, most of them do wear clothes. If they wanted to "go ghost", I'd say that yeah, they look kinda like their namesakes. Nebulae are very dark, with pinpricks of brighter color and wafting gases, while novas are very bright, with swirling warm colors. Stealth-wise, I'd rule that their footsteps make just as much noise as normal people's. There's still an impact, just of a different sort. I could possibly see swapping Magic Missile for Pass Without Trace, though, to represent that. (But Pass Without Trace can affect a bunch of allies, so... Maybe not.)

Edit: OH! I finally get why Oncie is complaining about them being ducks!

Yeah, they're beings of telekinetic force, not ducks. "Odd duck" is an idiom.

Oncie
2019-07-14, 10:31 PM
So, little context-this is based on a elf subrace I made for a friend. She wanted to play as Space. We had a great time (I was DMing) and, while it was somewhat silly, it was fun. So if you prefer to take your magical elf games super seriously, that's fine-but don't crap on people who choose to be more lighthearted.

Okay, I admit that I was pretty harsh in my first comment, and Im sorry for that. However, it's simply the fact that jokes from the "Lol, random" variety really just get on my nerves in the worst way possible. I do like my games more lighthearted as well, however, I'm of the opinion that comedy in a campaing should come from character interactions, or silly situations simply playing out due to PC's decisions, not forced gags such as "spece ducks".


As for detect balance, looking at it... (Using this one-if that's incorrect, please let me know.)

12 from ASI +1/+1/+1
0 from Languages, but I did forget to list them. Let me correct that.
6 from Standard Delayed Magic.
4 from Poison Resistance
0 from Speed
2 from Advantage on saves against forced movement
4 from Advantage against Poison Saves

Subraces get (just features, stat boni already included in standard race write-up):

Nova:
2 from Persuasion

Nebula:
2 from Cantrip

For a total of:
30 exactly. The only feature not accounted for is passing through walls, which I wouldn't rate higher than 5 for anything except Monks, as Illven kindly pointed out.

1) Poison resistance + Advantage against poison should be a 5 together, not an 8. At the very bottom of the list there are specific ratings for feature combos, and Poison Resistance + Advantage is one of them.
2) "Delayed magic" is not actually delayed magic, in the case of your race, it has a 3rd lvl spell at 5th lvl, instead of a 2nd, which makes it better and should warrant some bonus points on the scale
3) Size should be considdered like a 1, or maybe 2at most, since it is a ribbon, or something just extra for situational use.
4) In my personal opinion, having guidance on any character as a given should be treated as more than just +2, on the account of just how good it is. It's basically a mini bardic inspiration, but with no limit per-day.
5) I won't even get into the walk-through-walls trait, it's simply busted. Game-breakingly bad.



Hm. Okay, I can reasonably see your complaint about using Detect Balance. But, without any kind of history of homebrew to your name, I'm inclined to trust my own balance-o-meter and Sandmote's than yours. (Sandmote, you don't see any balance issues, right? Just some clarity concerns that I think I cleared up?)

...Oh... So, are you like... just basically invalidating anything I've said because I don't have brewing experience? Or at least any brewing experience that YOU can see? Well, okay then, forget what I said earlier about being rude, **** you too, I guess.

Blackbando
2019-07-14, 10:32 PM
Hi, let me throw my hat into the ring here, if I might.



12 from ASI +1/+1/+1
0 from Languages, but I did forget to list them. Let me correct that.
6 from Standard Delayed Magic.
4 from Poison Resistance
0 from Speed
2 from Advantage on saves against forced movement
4 from Advantage against Poison Saves

There's some parts wrong with this calculation, actually;
- You didn't account for Size, which gets the squeezing part of Small, but without the downsides of Small. That should be 1 or 2.
- You do not have Standard Delayed Magic, actually; you have fly instead of a 2nd level spell at 5th level, making this superior to standard delayed. I would qualify that as a 7 or 8.
- Listed near the bottom, if you have resistance to poison and advantage on poison saves, it's not a total of 8 - it's actually only 5.


The only feature not accounted for is passing through walls, which I wouldn't rate higher than 5 for anything except Monks, as Illven kindly pointed out.

I would call this significantly higher than 5. 8, maybe 12; in any dungeon with walls (read: probably all of them if they're actually a dungeon), you can just ignore the walls, getting to places you're really not meant to be in, and overall just making the life of the DM harder. This is a kind of trait I would say is not fine on a PC race, at all. Compare it to the etherealness spell, which is 7th level; yes, this is weaker than that, but not by a large enough margin to be balanced.

My suggestion: I would say to either make it literally just the etherealness spell, but only for 1 round, and being once per rest (this makes it easier to balance out, because it's only going to happen like once in a day, maybe more if it's short rest recharge, and it doesn't last long), or you could do it how I've done in the past, where it can only pass through 1 foot of material, creatures, and can't pass lead at all (if a dungeon has walls only 1 foot thick then they're probably not going to stop the party from breaking through them anyways, but this can still do cool stuff like ignore difficult terrain, go through smaller doors, and just prevent creatures from blocking you.)

Both of these are still strong, don't get me wrong! I'm just saying they're a lot less likely to break a game, while this... is pretty likely to.


But, without any kind of history of homebrew to your name, I'm inclined to trust my own balance-o-meter and Sandmote's than yours.

I don't mean to insult you, JNA, but this kind of comes off as pretentious. Like, I don't disagree with you that you've done it for longer, but it still does come off as effectively saying you're better than Oncie.


Beyond that, there's still no reason to be rude.

I can agree with this.

Oncie
2019-07-14, 10:38 PM
Edit: OH! I finally get why Oncie is complaining about them being ducks!

Yeah, they're beings of telekinetic force, not ducks. "Odd duck" is an idiom.

Okay, that makes significantly more sense. Forgive me for not being a native english speaker.

JNAProductions
2019-07-14, 10:38 PM
...Oh... So, are you like... just basically invalidating anything I've said because I don't have brewing experience? Or at least any brewing experience that YOU can see? Well, okay then, forget what I said earlier about being rude, **** you too, I guess.

I'm saying that, as far as I know, you have considerably less experience than Sandmote and me on brewing. I mean, looking at your post history, this is (far as I can tell) the first thread you've ever participated in.

That doesn't mean your opinion is worthless (though you certainly didn't help things by being rude)-but it does mean I'm inclined to trust more experienced voices, or those that back up their arguments more strongly. Illven, for example, while not a particularly experienced 5E brewer, brought up a specific point addressing Monk synergy with this race.

Also, see my edit in the last post-they're not ducks. It's a phrase.


Hi, let me throw my hat into the ring here, if I might.



There's some parts wrong with this calculation, actually;
- You didn't account for Size, which gets the squeezing part of Small, but without the downsides of Small. That should be 1 or 2.
- You do not have Standard Delayed Magic, actually; you have fly instead of a 2nd level spell at 5th level, making this superior to standard delayed. I would qualify that as a 7 or 8.
- Listed near the bottom, if you have resistance to poison and advantage on poison saves, it's not a total of 8 - it's actually only 5.



I would call this significantly higher than 5. 8, maybe 12; in any dungeon with walls (read: probably all of them if they're actually a dungeon), you can just ignore the walls, getting to places you're really not meant to be in, and overall just making the life of the DM harder. This is a kind of trait I would say is not fine on a PC race, at all. Compare it to the etherealness spell, which is 7th level; yes, this is weaker than that, but not by a large enough margin to be balanced.

My suggestion: I would say to either make it literally just the etherealness spell, but only for 1 round, and being once per rest (this makes it easier to balance out, because it's only going to happen like once in a day, maybe more if it's short rest recharge, and it doesn't last long), or you could do it how I've done in the past, where it can only pass through 1 foot of material, creatures, and can't pass lead at all (if a dungeon has walls only 1 foot thick then they're probably not going to stop the party from breaking through them anyways, but this can still do cool stuff like ignore difficult terrain, go through smaller doors, and just prevent creatures from blocking you.)

Both of these are still strong, don't get me wrong! I'm just saying they're a lot less likely to break a game, while this... is pretty likely to.

I don't mean to insult you, JNA, but this kind of comes off as pretentious. Like, I don't disagree with you that you've done it for longer, but it still does come off as effectively saying you're better than Oncie.

I can agree with this.

First bit-that's me misreading Detect Balance. I rarely use it, so no shock I done goofed.

I'd like to keep it as able to pass through walls (a lot weaker than the spell, though-you can't bring ANYTHING with) but lead stopping you seems a good idea. I'll add that.

And yeah, that is a little rude on my part. Oncie did apologize to me, so it's only fair to apologize back.

Oncie, sorry-I don't mean to denigrate you or imply you're worth less or anything like that. I'd be happy to take criticisms, I only ask that you back them up or provide specific suggestions on what to change.


Okay, that makes significantly more sense. Forgive me for not being a native english speaker.

Yeah, it completely slipped my mind. I was very confused as to why you kept referencing ducks, but I can see why someone who isn't a native speaker or just hadn't heard that phrase much would be confused.

I will say this-your English is (missing idioms aside) just fine. Perfectly understandable, so you've done well learning English.


Swapped Fly for Pass Without Trace, taking what's been said into consideration.

Oncie
2019-07-14, 10:48 PM
Oncie, sorry-I don't mean to denigrate you or imply you're worth less or anything like that. I'd be happy to take criticisms, I only ask that you back them up or provide specific suggestions on what to change.

No hard feelings, I did go off on you in retaliation as well, so I suppose we're even now.



Yeah, it completely slipped my mind. I was very confused as to why you kept referencing ducks, but I can see why someone who isn't a native speaker or just hadn't heard that phrase much would be confused.


About that too, I get the joke about their reference picture being just blank, since they're incorporeal and therefore invisible I guess (Though, thinking of that now, wouldn't that have some pretty busted mechanical consequences, like perma advantage on attacks since nobody can see you? But I digress), however I feel like a lot of the misunderstanding could've been cleared up if they did have some sort of actual reference or if you actually put in their phisical description into the race bio/lore

JNAProductions
2019-07-14, 10:53 PM
No hard feelings, I did go off on you in retaliation as well, so I suppose we're even now.

About that too, I get the joke about their reference picture being just blank, since they're incorporeal and therefore invisible I guess (Though, thinking of that now, wouldn't that have some pretty busted mechanical consequences, like perma advantage on attacks since nobody can see you? But I digress), however I feel like a lot of the misunderstanding could've been cleared up if they did have some sort of actual reference or if you actually put in their phisical description into the race bio/lore

And peace was restored to the world! :P

Like Raziere suggested, their appearance is likely indicative of their subrace. Less noticeable than a regular person, but not enough to make a huge difference. (As in, not enough to warrant giving them mechanics to reflect that.)

The person who inspired this had her character always wearing a cloak, and I do imagine your typical member of this race to wear clothes most of the time...

And actually, a thought just occurred to me-as another way to counteract the advantages they can gain via their wall-walking ability, I think if they glowed, that'd be a way to stop them being sneaky through walls. They can wear clothes to cover it up, but not when wall-walking.

Oncie
2019-07-14, 11:14 PM
Like Raziere suggested, their appearance is likely indicative of their subrace. Less noticeable than a regular person, but not enough to make a huge difference. (As in, not enough to warrant giving them mechanics to reflect that.)

That still tells me literally nothing about what they generally look like. One subrace is basically "Happy-go-lucky" and the other one is "The smart one", those things don't describe their appearance, but rather their general mentality. It'd be an interesting concept if maybe their personalities actually influenced their appearances, or something, but you never mentioned that in the original post, so people are just left to draw their own conclusions from the blanks. After looking through some of your brew, old and new, i think you have a problem with writing lore in general, and if you could improve that, it would really elevate your works to a next level. Of course I'm not talking a full 3 parahraph backstory for the whole race WOTC style, but if you could make your descriptions more detailed, I think it would entice more players to try out your races. D&D, at it's core, is a roleplaying game after all, but your creations rarely give any sense of theme or interest needed for players to really immerse themselves into characters who could be such races/classes. In the end, the more you describe your race and the more lore you give it, the better.


The person who inspired this had her character always wearing a cloak, and I do imagine your typical member of this race to wear clothes most of the time...

And actually, a thought just occurred to me-as another way to counteract the advantages they can gain via their wall-walking ability, I think if they glowed, that'd be a way to stop them being sneaky through walls. They can wear clothes to cover it up, but not when wall-walking.

I could imagine that getting fully stripped in order to use one of their main traits would be somewaht awkward as well as inconvenient, but I guess that's one way to go about it. Personaly, I prefer Blackbando's solution with making the trait more like the spell, but nerfing it along too.

JNAProductions
2019-07-15, 08:55 AM
They look like either a nebula cloud (in mostly humanoid form) or bright stars (in mostly humanoid form).

And I feel limiting them to a very brief period per day wouldn't really fit-they're not incorporeal sometime, they're incorporeal (kinda) all the time. But they can't extend it to their equipment, so that gets left behind.

sandmote
2019-07-15, 10:55 PM
Sandmote, you don't see any balance issues, right? Just some clarity concerns that I think I cleared up?
Forgot to check, honestly.



As for detect balance, looking at it... (Using this (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vq1kz6PRAbw5LHy6amH-bNb4OuB8DBXL1RsZROt03Sc/edit#gid=0) one-if that's incorrect, please let me know.)

12 from ASI +1/+1/+1
0 from Languages, but I did forget to list them. Let me correct that.
6 from Standard Delayed Magic.
4 from Poison Resistance
0 from Speed
2 from Advantage on saves against forced movement
4 from Advantage against Poison Saves

Subraces get (just features, stat boni already included in standard race write-up):

Nova:
2 from Persuasion

Nebula:
2 from Cantrip

For a total of:
30 exactly. The only feature not accounted for is passing through walls, which I wouldn't rate higher than 5 for anything except Monks, as Illven kindly pointed out.


There's some parts wrong with this calculation, actually;
- You didn't account for Size, which gets the squeezing part of Small, but without the downsides of Small. That should be 1 or 2.
- Listed near the bottom, if you have resistance to poison and advantage on poison saves, it's not a total of 8 - it's actually only 5.



I would call this significantly higher than 5. 8, maybe 12; in any dungeon with walls (read: probably all of them if they're actually a dungeon), you can just ignore the walls, getting to places you're really not meant to be in, and overall just making the life of the DM harder. This is a kind of trait I would say is not fine on a PC race, at all. Compare it to the etherealness spell, which is 7th level; yes, this is weaker than that, but not by a large enough margin to be balanced.




I'd like to keep it as able to pass through walls (a lot weaker than the spell, though-you can't bring ANYTHING with) but lead stopping you seems a good idea. I'll add that.

Swapped Fly for Pass Without Trace, taking what's been said into consideration.

Considering the changes, few builds use both Intelligence and Charisma or Intelligence and Wisdom. See the Tiefling and Aasimar Protector Entries on the Detect Balance sheet as examples.

That put you as follows:
+12 from ASI,
-2 from negative synergy
0 from languages
+7 for (still not quite) standard delayed magic
+5 for Poison Resistance and Advantage
+2 forced movement
+2 size change, as you can switch between riding smaller mounts and using heavy weapons as well as squeeze into smaller spaces.
+2 persuasion/cantrip (subraces)
I'll say +1 for the glow.

That's 29 plus the special ability. 28 if you drop the Magic Missile to 1st level. Still a bit high, but I don't think the phasing ability is worth even 5 points for anyone other than monks. I don't know about everyone else's games, but most of the time I wouldn't risk walking into a wall I didn't know the thickness of. Even in a completely stereotypical dungeon there are usually sides neighboring solid rock, and if the DM knows you have this ability they're likely to plan their dungeons out a bit better. In practice you can scout for traps that close the passage behind you and set up certain certain traps that normally require Dimension Door. I'm rating it a 5 with monks included. Even they can't afford to take on a challenge intended for the party on their own.

So a total of 34 assuming the DM's dungeons are typically carved into a mountainside, are built from a preexisting cave system, or otherwise have walls of significant thickness in some of the directions a player might want to risk. And also that more intelligent monsters will go on high alert and head for the chambers nearby if they see a player who decided to head 15 one way and 15 feet back.

If someone could point out additional uses for the walk through walls ability, that would be great. If you want to limit it more JNA, you could make solid walls count as rough terrain and/or change "and if you spend both your action and bonus action," to still deal 1 point of damage per 5 feet traveled. The former would halve how far into the walls a player could risk going, and makes thematic sense (forcing your way through solid objects is hard).

JNAProductions
2019-07-16, 11:17 AM
Added the 1 damage per 5' by spending both actions. However, this one rounds DOWN, so you can pass through a 4.9' or thinner wall without taking any damage.

Segev
2019-07-16, 01:29 PM
Why are they called "Space" when they emit bright light? My mental image of a "space" creature would be a void filled with stars or the like. I may be picturing this wrong.

I understand the balance reasons for the damage when passing through objects, but it is both a bit complicated (lots of options, and using different and even multiple actions), and with the exception of the "spend action and bonus action" option, you're risking being knocked unconscious using it at all at level 1. While I acknowledge most play happens above level 1, racial features really should be rather fully usable at chargen. It also kind-of forces any NPC of this race into being 3+ HD to really take advantage of this feature even for fluff reasons.

I suggest simply requiring them to expend an action and use Concentration to go incorporeal (leaving their equipment behind) until the end of their turn. Ending inside a wall etc. forcibly ejects them and causes 1d6 damage per 5 ft. travelled. This is still really powerful; compare to the third level spell gaseous form. However, it's more usable.

Is there a specific reason you have them shrinking a size category rather than just giving them a movement mode that lets them squeeze through narrow spaces without slowing down? Something like "can pass through openings as small as their equipment will fit through, or an inch in diameter, whichever is larger."

Grod_The_Giant
2019-07-16, 02:40 PM
I'm inclined to agree with Segev-- the current version of intangibility is overcomplicated. Any way you slice it it's an occasional thing only... maybe 1/short rest, and you CAN use it more often but you take exhaustion if you do?

I'd also suggest dropping spellcasting beyond Mage Hand. Like the Aaracokra, this is a one-trick race. Either the DM allows it and it's massively useful, or they don't and the race is banned.

JNAProductions
2019-07-16, 02:44 PM
I'm inclined to agree with Segev-- the current version of intangibility is overcomplicated. Any way you slice it it's an occasional thing only... maybe 1/short rest, and you CAN use it more often but you take exhaustion if you do?

I'd also suggest dropping spellcasting beyond Mage Hand. Like the Aaracokra, this is a one-trick race. Either the DM allows it and it's massively useful, or they don't and the race is banned.

Okay, changed.

Thanks all for your advice.

skaeren
2019-07-17, 07:33 PM
This is highly amusing!