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sandmote
2019-07-24, 01:22 PM
This page on the Homebrewery (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/HJ-ZwpfIMH)

I'm disappointed with the lack of celestials in 5e in general, so I thought I'd write up a few more, all but one of which can be summoned with Conjure Celestial.

Medium celestial, lawful good

Armor Class 13
Hit Points 60 (8d8+24)
Speed 20 ft., fly 50 ft.

STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
13 (+1) 14 (+2) 16 (+3) 16 (+3) 17 (+3) 14 (+2)

Saving Throws DEX +5, WIS +6, CHA +5
Skills Perception +6
Damage Immunity Fire, Radiant; Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing from Nonmagical Attacks
Senses Truesight 120 ft., passive Perception 13
Languages Abyssal, Celestial, Common, Infernal
Challenge 5 (1800 XP)

Magic Resistance. The galgal has advantage on saving throws against spells and other magical effects.

Unleash Wind. The galgal can unleash a burst of wind as a bonus action. Each creature within 15 feet of the galgal must succeed on a DC 16 Strength saving throw or be knocked back 10 feet.

Actions
Multiattack. The galgal makes two judgement attacks.

Judgement. The galgal chooses one enemy within 60 feet that it can see, which must make a DC 16 dexterity saving throw, taking 17 (5d6) radiant damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.. The target gains no benefit from cover for this saving throw.

Large celestial, lawful good

Armor Class 20 (natural Armor)
Hit Points 179 (17d10+85)
Speed 20 ft., fly 50 ft.

STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
19 (+4) 22 (+6) 21 (+5) 16 (+3) 21 (+5) 18 (+4)

Saving Throws DEX +11, WIS +10, CHA +9
Skills Perception +10
Damage Immunity Fire, Radiant; Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing from Nonmagical Attacks
Senses Truesight 120 ft., passive Perception 13
Languages All
Challenge 13 (10000 XP)

Magic Resistance. The ophan has advantage on saving throws against spells and other magical effects.

Unleash Gale. The ophan can unleash a burst of wind as a bonus action. Each creature within 20 feet of the ophan must make on a DC 16 Strength saving throw. The creature is pushed back 20 feet on a failed save, or have as far on a successful one.

Actions
Multiattack. The ophan makes two judgement attacks.

Judgement. The ophan chooses one enemy within 60 feet that it can see, which must make a DC 18 dexterity saving throw, taking 39 (6d12) radiant damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.. The target gains no benefit from cover for this saving throw.

Large celestial, neutral good

Armor Class 13 (Natural Armor)
Hit Points 52 (8d10+8)
Speed 30ft., fly 40 ft.

STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
15 (+2) 12 (+1) 12 (+1) 13 (+1) 15 (+2) 11 (+0)

Saving Throws STR +4, DEX +3, WIS +4
Damage Resistance Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing from Nonmagical Attacks
Senses Truesight 60 ft., passive Perception 12
Languages All
Challenge 3 (700 XP)

Multiple Heads. The cherub has advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks and on saving throws against being blinded, charmed, deafened, frightened, stunned, and knocked unconscious.

Innate Spellcasting. The cherub's innate spellcasting ability is Wisdom (spell save DC 12). The cherub can innately cast the following spells, requiring no components:

At will: detect evil and good, sacred flame (5th level)

1/day each: bless, cure wounds, dispel evil and good, guiding bolt

Piercing Eye. The cherub can make a perception check as a bonus action.

Actions
Gore. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5ft., one target. Hit 12 (2d8 + 3) piercing damage.

Divine Roar (Recharge 6). The cherub unleashes a roar in a 15-foot cone. Each creature in that area must make a DC 11 Constitution saving throw, taking 21 (6d6) thunder damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.

Medium celestial, lawful good

Armor Class 13 (Natural Armor, shield)
Hit Points 78 (12d8+24)
Speed 30ft.

STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
17 (+3) 13 (+1) 14 (+2) 16 (+3) 17 (+3) 14 (+2)

Saving Throws DEX +3, WIS +5, CHA +4
Damage Resistances Poison, Radiant; Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing from Nonmagical Attacks
Senses Truesight 120 ft., passive Perception 13
Languages Abyssal, Celestial, Common, Infernal
Challenge 4 (1100 XP)

Angelic Weapons. The exousia's weapon attacks are magical. When the exousia hits with any weapon, the weapon deals an extra 2d8 radiant damage (included in the attack).

Magic Resistance. The exousia has advantage on saving throws against spells and other magical effects.

Actions
Multiattack. The exousia makes two spear attacks.

Spear. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5ft., one target. Hit 6 (1d6 + 3) piercing damage plus 9 (2d8) radiant damage.

Chain of Order (Recharge 6). Ranged Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, range 20/40 ft., one creature. Hit: The target is restrained by webbing. As an action, the restrained target can make a DC 13 Strength check, bursting the chain on a success. The chain can also be attacked and destroyed (AC 12; hp 10; vulnerability to acid and necrotic damage; immunity to poison and psychic damage).

Small celestial, chaotic good

Armor Class 15
Hit Points 45 (10d6+10)
Speed 5 ft., fly 30 ft.

STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
13 (+1) 20 (+5) 12 (+1) 13 (+1) 14 (+2) 15 (+2)

Saving Throws DEX +7, CON +3, CHA +2
Skills Perception +4
Damage Immunity Lightning; Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing from Nonmagical Attacks
Senses Truesight 120 ft., passive Perception 13
Languages Understands all, but can't speak
Challenge 4 (1100 XP)

Magic Resistance. The hashmal has advantage on saving throws against spells and other magical effects.

Crackling Lightning. A creature that touches the hashmal or hits it with a melee attack while within 10 feet of it takes 6 (1d12) Lightning damage.

Actions
Multiattack. The hashmal makes two lightning blast attacks.

Lightning Blast. The hashmal chooses one enemy within 10 feet that it can see, which must make a DC 14 dexterity saving throw, taking 11 (2d10) lightning damage damage on a failed save, or no damage on a successful one. The target gains no benefit from cover for this saving throw.

Small celestial, neutral good

Armor Class 12
Hit Points 72 (8d6+8)
Speed 20ft., fly 30 ft.

STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
12 (+1) 14 (+2) 12 (+1) 16 (+3) 14 (+2) 14 (+2)

Saving Throws CON +3, WIS +4, CHA +4
Damage Resistances Necrotic, Poison, Radiant
Senses Truesight 120 ft., passive Perception 12
Languages Celestial, Common
Challenge 2 (450 XP)

Magic Resistance. The putto has advantage on saving throws against spells and other magical effects.

Actions
Multiattack. The putto makes two shortbow attacks.

Shortbow. Ranged Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, ranged 80/320 ft., one target. Hit: 5 (1d6 + 2) piercing damage.

CR Commentary:

When I tried to Calculate the CR of the Celestials in the Monster Manual, I got wierd numbers. Notably, the Couatl only counts as CR 4 when you input its damage immunities as if for a much higher CR monster. Until I'm shown I've done something wrong, I've made the same change for the above celestials.



Monster
Listed CR
My Calculations


Couatl
4
7


Empyrean
23
23


Deva
10
8


Planetar
16
14


Solar
21
19


Unicorn
5
4


Excusia
4
6


Cherub
3
4


Galgal
5
7


Ophan
13
13


Hashmal
4
5


Putto
2
2

Squire Doodad
2019-07-24, 09:40 PM
I was under the impression Hashmal was Lawful Evil, Lion-inquisitor guy and all.

Oh FFT, how fun it is to make terrible jokes with you.

Seriously though this actually looks pretty interesting, keep it up!

Great Dragon
2019-07-26, 08:58 AM
@sandmote: This is interesting.
I like seeing more Celestials in D&D.
Gygax and Co gave them the short end of the stick, unless they Fell.

For Comments on ways I've changed the Planar Beings, check Ancient Realms and To the 9th (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?591202-To-the-9th-(Plots)&p=24048794#post24048794).

Also, change: damage on a success or half as much damage on a failure.

To: XdY (Radiant) damage, half as much with a successful Save.

sandmote
2019-07-26, 12:41 PM
I was under the impression Hashmal was Lawful Evil, Lion-inquisitor guy and all.

Oh FFT, how fun it is to make terrible jokes with you.

Seriously though this actually looks pretty interesting, keep it up!
Thank you, although I'm not very familiar with Final Fantasy. Blasphemy, I know.


@sandmote: This is interesting.
I like seeing more Celestials in D&D.
Gygax and Co gave them the short end of the stick, unless they Fell.

For Comments on ways I've changed the Planar Beings, check Ancient Realms and To the 9th (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?591202-To-the-9th-(Plots)&p=24048794#post24048794).

Also, change: damage on a success or half as much damage on a failure.

To: XdY (Radiant) damage, half as much with a successful Save.
Whoops, I'll fix those to do more damage on a a failed save.

Edit: The format is "[YZ/2] (YdZ) [type] damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one." Copied from here (https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/adult-black-dragon).

For reference, the hashmal doing no damage on a miss is intentional, as it means summoning a galgal using a higher level spell slot significantly improves damage output in comparison.

Edit 2: Having looked at your comments on To the 9th, I'm specifically avoiding using the term "archon" for anything, as I expect most other homebrew celestas to use that name. Angels all being lawful also rubs me the wrong way, although that would be reduced if (angel) became a subtype in the same manner (devil) and (demon) are. Which requires far more celestials to make sense.

Marcotix
2019-07-26, 12:58 PM
I won't lie, I clicked on this thread expecting something completely different.

Great Dragon
2019-07-26, 01:32 PM
Whoops, I'll fix those to do more damage on a a failed save.

Edit: The format is "[YZ/2] (YdZ) [type] damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one." Copied from DnDBeyond.
I'll get this wording thing straight, yet.


For reference, the hashmal doing no damage on a miss is intentional, as it means summoning a galgal using a higher level spell slot significantly improves damage output in comparison.

Edit 2: Having looked at your comments on To the 9th, I'm specifically avoiding using the term "archon" for anything, as I expect most other homebrew celestals to use that name. Angels all being lawful also rubs me the wrong way, although that would be reduced if (angel) became a subtype in the same manner (devil) and (demon) are. Which requires far more celestials to make sense.

Actually, yes - I had intended that they were all Subraces types of Celestials (LG, NG, and CG), just like Fiends have three Subraces types (LE, NE, and CE) - Just a reminding Note, I don't have TN Exemplars, and no real TN Deities. (Those TN that do exist are Cosmic Powers, and not involved in the Alignment War, and don't gran't Power to anyone.)

****
Feedback and Suggestions (on anything) is always welcomed.

sandmote
2019-07-27, 05:48 AM
I won't lie, I clicked on this thread expecting something completely different. I... am not sure what you meant. I suppose something you'd see flushed down a celestial toilet?


I'll get this wording thing straight, yet.



Actually, yes - I had intended that they were all Subraces of Celestials (LG, NG, and CG), just like Fiends have three Subraces (LE, NE, and CE) - Just a reminding Note, I don't have TN Exemplars, and no real TN Deities. (Those TN that do exist are Cosmic Powers, and not involved in the Alignment War, and don't gran't Power to anyone.)

****
Feedback and Suggestions (on anything) is always welcomed.You can cheat the wording by copy and pasting text from the SRD (or more likely, another website's cleaner formatting of them).

This made me check, and apparently vargouille are tied to demons while rakshasa are tied to devils. Which I think leaves larva as not tied to LE devils, NE yugoloths, or CE demons. Although I suggest keeping the "subtype" category instead of calling them "subraces."

I'm also kind of interested in how you handle this for other types of monsters. Are there established/temporary terms for the non-LG celestials? And I figure fey are split between CG, CN, and CE, presumably with Seelie fey being CG, and Unseelie fey being CE?

Composer99
2019-07-27, 08:13 AM
I'm away from my box sets, but if memory serves, the 2e Planescape setting set up non-angel celestials of various sorts, if you're looking for inspiration.

I think maybe Pathfinder does as well.

Breccia
2019-07-27, 08:59 AM
I'm disappointed with the lack of celestials in 5e in general



Gygax and Co gave them the short end of the stick, unless they Fell.

Simply put, I'd be willing to bet that's intentional. Simply put, there are far more stories about heroes fighting demons than fighting angels because angels are the good guys. And I'm projecting that a lot of game designers didn't want to buck that trend. Yes, playing the villain once in a while is fun, but making a game around that -- and some of you remember the controversy D&D had over the years brings this point into focus -- might not have ended well.

But: what about angels as allies? Surely there's a good reason to have stats for that! So, yeah, ball moderately dropped.

If I have a concern, it's with the cherub, and it's a concern I share with the 5E Dragons. Your cherub's CR and its breath weapon damage seem incompatible (and again, it's not just you) because 6d8 damage, averaging 27, will flatten pretty much any 3rd level character it hits. A 3rd level fighter with 14 Con will have, on average, exactly 27 hp, although to be fair they'll probably make the saving throw. The rogue and monk won't, and Evasion won't protect them. The recharge isn't relevant to this discussion. Again, 5E dragons feel the same to me as well. The difference (not that this is an excuse) is that, generally speaking, the party won't whoopsie daisy stumble into an adult dragon's lair by accident. Traditionally they'll be prepared with the right kinds of protection first, which is completely believable in a dragon-level campaign.

The cherub is level 3. That kind of prep is far less likely, nobody will see the thunder damage coming (unlike dragons, color-coded for your convenience!) and worst, it's both intelligent and can fly,
which at low level is a death sentence for many parties -- the cherub can fly over the party's defenders and shout the spellcasters to death on round one.

Now I know, earlier on, I was going on about how heroes were less likely to fight these guys. And that's still true. But the CR of a monster should not be tied to its alignment or purpose. A storm giant isn't suddenly less challenging because it only fights on Thorsday.

Once again, my issue isn't with you or these monsters specifically. These are not the only monsters out there that feel like walking party wipes. But could I convince you to tone down the damage, but staple on a fear effect? I mean, it seems appropriate.

Great Dragon
2019-07-27, 09:02 AM
although I'm not very familiar with Final Fantasy. Blasphemy, I know.
Don't feel too bad, I stoppled playing FF after #3.


You can cheat the wording by copy and pasting text from the SRD (or more likely, another website's cleaner formatting of them).
I noticed that I had listed them in reverse. ARG.
"Full damage on a Failed Save, half on a Success."

But, I'll try to remember that, when posting.
Thanks.


This made me check, and apparently vargouille are tied to demons while rakshasa are tied to devils.
Vargouille are some kind of Demon/Vampire.

Rakshasa are escapees from Hell. They go back if killed in the Mortal World.
How they get back to the Mortal World, is mostly up to the DM.
But, they do have Plane Shift in 5e, so....


Which I think leaves larva as not tied to LE devils, NE yugoloths, or CE demons.
Edit: Checked:

Fiendish Codex 1: Simpering and pitiful, the mane is the lowest of the low,
a feeble tanaríri formed directly from the soul of an evil creature sent to the Abyss.
* Dretch are next up.

Larvae are the Devil version.

And I don't recall one for NE types.


Although I suggest keeping the "subtype" category instead of calling them "subraces."
Political Correctness. Check.


I'm also kind of interested in how you handle this for other types of monsters. Are there established/temporary terms for the non-LG celestials? And I figure fey are split between CG, CN, and CE, presumably with Seelie fey being CG, and Unseelie fey being CE?

Celestial is the term for all types, with each Subtype named as I have listed: Angels, etc


*****
For Fey Courts: Correct.
Seelie are Summer and CG - Individuals can be NG
Unseelie are Winter and CE - Individuals can be NE
Iron Court are usually LN (Forgot about King Oberon)

Except the Queens, which are Lawful.
(Just don't make one mad at you, since the
Queens can make the Law, as long as it doesn't directly oppose the Mothers.)

Direct servants of the Queens tend to be Lawful.

The two Princesses can choose Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic, but still restricted to Good/Evil, as per their Court. (Yes, a Mortal can become a Princess, and doesn't start out with that restriction)

And the "Fey can't lie" rule is enforced by the Mothers. Which no-one can figure out their Alignments beyond Summer = Good and Winter = Bad (usually).

Non-insane CN for "Wild" Fey.
"Wild" Rulers are typically NG or NE.
(Truely CN leaders are quickly replaced)

NG for Spring and NE for Autumn.
Same rules as Court Princesses.

The Formar are typically CE, though Individuals do differ.

A few more comments in 9th.

Hypersmith
2019-07-27, 10:18 AM
Once again, my issue isn't with you or these monsters specifically. These are not the only monsters out there that feel like walking party wipes. But could I convince you to tone down the damage, but staple on a fear effect? I mean, it seems appropriate.

I think your mistake is assuming a cr 3 creature can only be used against a party at that level. It can be thrown at them sure, but it can be always used in conjunction with other monsters against higher level characters. With flying and intelligence, they can make good weaker components of the fight that can still fish out a sudden burst of damage if necessary. Though the DC is still plenty low, so it should be fine.

sandmote
2019-07-27, 05:18 PM
I'm away from my box sets, but if memory serves, the 2e Planescape setting set up non-angel celestials of various sorts, if you're looking for inspiration.

I think maybe Pathfinder does as well.I'm putting a bunch of monsters together for future reference, so I already have a backlog of celestials. But I will check that out once I'm lower on ideas.

The current backlog:

Non-true dragons
Aquatic beasts One down.
Fey that work with Conjure Fey and Conjure Woodland Beings.
Additional Golems
A second pile of Celestials, more than doubling the size of this one.

Hopefully writing this out well give me kick to finish them.


Simply put, I'd be willing to bet that's intentional. Simply put, there are far more stories about heroes fighting demons than fighting angels because angels are the good guys. And I'm projecting that a lot of game designers didn't want to buck that trend. Yes, playing the villain once in a while is fun, but making a game around that -- and some of you remember the controversy D&D had over the years brings this point into focus -- might not have ended well.

But: what about angels as allies? Surely there's a good reason to have stats for that! So, yeah, ball moderately dropped. I also enjoy having a good entity be compelled to fight the party, and this makes it easier to do thatas well.


If I have a concern, it's with the cherub, and it's a concern I share with the 5E Dragons. Your cherub's CR and its breath weapon damage seem incompatible (and again, it's not just you) because 6d8 damage, averaging 27, will flatten pretty much any 3rd level character it hits. A 3rd level fighter with 14 Con will have, on average, exactly 27 hp, although to be fair they'll probably make the saving throw. The rogue and monk won't, and Evasion won't protect them. The recharge isn't relevant to this discussion. Again, 5E dragons feel the same to me as well. The difference (not that this is an excuse) is that, generally speaking, the party won't whoopsie daisy stumble into an adult dragon's lair by accident. Traditionally they'll be prepared with the right kinds of protection first, which is completely believable in a dragon-level campaign.

The cherub is level 3. That kind of prep is far less likely, nobody will see the thunder damage coming (unlike dragons, color-coded for your convenience!) and worst, it's both intelligent and can fly,
which at low level is a death sentence for many parties -- the cherub can fly over the party's defenders and shout the spellcasters to death on round one.

Now I know, earlier on, I was going on about how heroes were less likely to fight these guys. And that's still true. But the CR of a monster should not be tied to its alignment or purpose. A storm giant isn't suddenly less challenging because it only fights on Thorsday. That's two three typos I caught on the Cherub thanks to you. Was supposed to be 6d6, for an average of 21 damage. The problem here being that ranged attacks are assumed to hit two targets irrelevant of the attacks range, and doesn't count attacks as being any stronger if they deal at least half damage by default. Neither of which gets included in the CR calculations provided by the DMG.

I mentioned this on my initial comment, but the CRs for celestials are odd to me. Notably, by my count the Couatl should have a CR significantly higher than 4. To keep the other summonable celestials viable, I've made similar adjustments for them.


Political Correctness. Check.
I suppose my reasoning also includes basic decency, but subrace is already a term, referring to options within races (like hill vs. mountain dwarves and high vs. wood vs. dark elves). Condensing the entirety of the lower planes into three races sounds slightly ridiculous to me.


I think your mistake is assuming a cr 3 creature can only be used against a party at that level. It can be thrown at them sure, but it can be always used in conjunction with other monsters against higher level characters. With flying and intelligence, they can make good weaker components of the fight that can still fish out a sudden burst of damage if necessary. Though the DC is still plenty low, so it should be fine. That too, although the listed damage was a typo.

Breccia
2019-07-27, 08:51 PM
I think your mistake is assuming a cr 3 creature can only be used against a party at that level.

The word "only" wasn't the problem. The fact that a level 3 party could possibly fight one at all, was my concern. It's the same issue I voiced (typed? dictated?) in a recent spell thread, namely, that a spell shouldn't be significantly lower level just because it's niche.

It also looks like the issue's been addressed, either way.

Great Dragon
2019-07-29, 08:43 PM
I don't mind having more Celestial types, they would just mostly be compared to each major Type: LG, NG, CG.
Just for me to put them into the correct Plane.

Also gives more options for the spell Summon Celestials.

Same for more Fiends: LE, NE, CE.
******************
Cherub (actual)

"Piercing Eye. The cherub can make a perception check as a bonus action."

Why?
With 120' Truesight there aren't very many Magical means of sneaking up on it. And how often are they likely to be Encountered in a dense Forest or a fog-laden Swamp?

I'd change it to +5 perception and Advantage
Passive = 20. (2 Proficiency and 3 Wis +5 Adv)
And give them Alert.
*****************
Need to edit Hashmal
Magic Resistance: remove and replace galgal

sandmote
2019-07-29, 10:39 PM
Also gives more options for the spell Summon Celestials. That was the main goal for these.


Cherub (actual)

"Piercing Eye. The cherub can make a perception check as a bonus action."

Why?
With 120' Truesight there aren't very many Magical means of sneaking up on it. And how often are they likely to be Encountered in a dense Forest or a fog-laden Swamp?

I'd change it to +5 perception and Advantage
Passive = 20. (2 Proficiency and 3 Wis +5 Adv)
And give them Alert. Frankly, I was trying to come up with something for the eagle head to be doing. Human head casts, Bull head does melee, and the lion has an AoE effect. Best thing I could come up with was triple-dipping into their ability to keep a lookout. Given it already has advantage on Perceptions checks as part of the Multiple Heads trait.


Need to edit Hashmal
Magic Resistance: remove and replace galgal I have no clue what you're trying to say here. Mechanically, the Hashmal deals non-radiant damage, while the Galgal deals damage on a successful saving throw (and requires upcasting Conjure Celestial to summon). Thematically, they're based on two different things, although I've anthropomorphized the Hashmal a bit by making it a creature.

Great Dragon
2019-07-30, 10:49 AM
Frankly, I was trying to come up with something for the eagle head to be doing. Human head casts, Bull head does melee, and the lion has an AoE effect. Best thing I could come up with was triple-dipping into their ability to keep a lookout. Given it already has advantage on Perceptions checks as part of the Multiple Heads trait.

Ah, did not notice that it already had advantage.

But it doing Perception shouldn't cost a Bonus Action.

With a Passive perception of at least 20;
3rd Lv PC +2 base + 2 Expertise +5 Dex = 9
Means a roll of 11+ on the die for maxed Bard/Rogue's Stealth to beat.

And there needs to be some kind of cover/obscurement to even try.

Fog Cloud, Smoke, etc - also blocks LoS for PCs.
Shapechanging, Polymorphed, Alter Self, all Illusions, and Darkness have no effect.

And if you give it Alert, it still has a good chance (Dex +5) of beating them in Initiative.

If you're still concerned, just add another +5 for at least one other head also helping perception.
Beating a DC 25 means 16+ on die for Expertise, and a Nat 20 for someone with Stealth Proficiency and +5 Dex. Those missing one of those, just can't do it.

Or, maybe give it a Reaction ability.
Dodge, or Spell Attack?


*****
Ack! No, you have "Galgal" listed where it should say "Hashmal" in Magic Resistance.
"Remove and replace".

sandmote
2019-07-30, 03:52 PM
Ah, did not notice that it already had advantage.

But it doing Perception shouldn't cost a Bonus Action.

With a Passive perception of at least 20;
3rd Lv PC +2 base + 2 Expertise +5 Dex = 9
Means a roll of 11+ on the die for maxed Bard/Rogue's Stealth to beat.

And there needs to be some kind of cover/obscurement to even try.

Fog Cloud, Smoke, etc - also blocks LoS for PCs.
Shapechanging, Polymorphed, Alter Self, all Illusions, and Darkness have no effect.

And if you give it Alert, it still has a good chance (Dex +5) of beating them in Initiative.

If you're still concerned, just add another +5 for at least one other head also helping perception.
Beating a DC 25 means 16+ on die for Expertise, and a Nat 20 for someone with Stealth Proficiency and +5 Dex. Those missing one of those, just can't do it.

Or, maybe give it a Reaction ability.
Dodge, or Spell Attack? So, technically 5e monsters don't get feats, you just list them having whatever ability. I'd also like to avoid giving it a boost to Initiative.

However, the cherub has a passive perception of 12, so it isn't that difficult to make a stealth save against it. Counting it as +5 for advantage, that's an 8+ for your bard or rogue example.

For now I'll cut the range of the truesight in half. I'm still not sure that giving the cherub an additional attempt to spot anyone sneaking is that big of an issue. Replacing it with a reaction could be a good idea, but I'm not sure what to put in.


Ack! No, you have "Galgal" listed where it should say "Hashmal" in Magic Resistance.
"Remove and replace". Welp, I feel dumb. Thank you for letting me know.

Hypersmith
2019-07-31, 05:44 AM
I disagree with great dragon. Keep the bonus action perception. PCs have many ways of creating cover for themselves, and berry free monsters at all have ways to deal with a rogue with a +11 to stealth just hiding every turn. Let something catch them off guard. Let the cherub be able to fire and still point out to others in the fight where they are. It's literally a one note ability that is much more interesting than it just having insanely high DC to beat vs passive perception.

So yeah, keep it. Thematic cohesiveness is more important than loading it with technical effectiveness. A reaction could be good, but it's already got a clear role and way of fighting, both in group and single combat. I'd say cherub is just fine. The truesight chop is fine.

Great Dragon
2019-07-31, 01:26 PM
So, technically 5e monsters don't get feats, you just list them having whatever ability. I'd also like to avoid giving it a boost to Initiative.
"Can't be surprised" ?
Gets to roll for initiative and act in surprise round, but doesn't get bonus to Initiative?


However, the cherub has a passive perception of 12, so it isn't that difficult to make a stealth save against it. Counting it as +5 for advantage, that's an 8+ for your bard or rogue example.
DC total = 17.

I find that Acceptable. Someone in the party is most likely going to spoil the ambush....


For now I'll cut the range of the truesight in half. I'm still not sure that giving the cherub an additional attempt to spot anyone sneaking is that big of an issue. Replacing it with a reaction could be a good idea, but I'm not sure what to put in.

Maybe: (in addition to Dodge; bonus/reactions)

sudden gusts of wind from its wings: Disadvantage to ranged attack until its next turn?

Creates bright light (actual sunlight) as Aura, Disadvantage to all attacks until its next turn?


Welp, I feel dumb. Thank you for letting me know.

Welcome.

@Hypersmith.
One reason was that the Bonus Action could have been used for something else.

But, ok.

Edit:
@sandmote: might the listed powers be usable for any of the other Celestials?

Thanks for considering my ideas.

sandmote
2019-07-31, 10:52 PM
I disagree with great dragon. Keep the bonus action perception. PCs have many ways of creating cover for themselves, and berry free monsters at all have ways to deal with a rogue with a +11 to stealth just hiding every turn. Let something catch them off guard. Let the cherub be able to fire and still point out to others in the fight where they are. It's literally a one note ability that is much more interesting than it just having insanely high DC to beat vs passive perception.

So yeah, keep it. Thematic cohesiveness is more important than loading it with technical effectiveness. A reaction could be good, but it's already got a clear role and way of fighting, both in group and single combat. I'd say cherub is just fine. The truesight chop is fine. Now that you mention it, the cherub would be useful at higher levels, where either the party or the celestials fighting the party need to keep the squishy cherub alive to be able to find their sneaky enemies. That sounds like a good dynamic to me.


"Can't be surprised" ?
Gets to roll for initiative and act in surprise round, but doesn't get bonus to Initiative?
...
Maybe: (in addition to Dodge; bonus/reactions)

sudden gusts of wind from its wings: Disadvantage to ranged attack until its next turn?

Creates bright light (actual sunlight) as Aura, Disadvantage to all attacks until its next turn?
...
@Hypersmith.
One reason was that the Bonus Action could have been used for something else.My issue with your examples are they they aren't particularly tied to the Cherub's eagle head, which is what the ability in question is for. I'd also like to avoid having a bunch of abilities on the cherub, as I don't want all the summonable celestials to be CR 4. That would make the one with a lot of utility the obviously stronger choice. As it stands, there's a bit of variety on power vs. utility. Given the Cherub gets spellcasting and is themed as an anti-sneak supporting monster, defensive abilities like "ranged attacks (on the flying creature) have disadvantage," bumping up its defense so much would make it very strong.

Also, none of the spells I gave it are cast as bonus actions, so by default the Cherub doesn't have anything else to use them for.