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azule74
2007-10-10, 05:32 PM
Okay I need a little help. I am going into an all undead campaign and I am playing a rogue. Is there a Prestige Class that gives the Rogue sneak attack ability with a ranged weapon? I have heard about the Skull Clan Killer, but cannot find it in my books.

Shas aia Toriia
2007-10-10, 05:34 PM
He naturally has ranged sneak attack, although it won't work against undead.

EDIT: Also, the Skull Clan Killer is the wrong PrC

Person_Man
2007-10-10, 06:17 PM
Skullclan Hunter is in the Miniatures Handbook. I think a 2 level dip will give you full Sneak Attack vs. Undead. But it requires Turn Undead for entry. There's also a variant class feature out there that gives you 50% vs. undead.

Starbuck_II
2007-10-10, 06:23 PM
Skullclan Hunter is in the Miniatures Handbook. I think a 2 level dip will give you full Sneak Attack vs. Undead. But it requires Turn Undead for entry. There's also a variant class feature out there that gives you 50% vs. undead.

Complete Champion has 50% Vs Undead I think.

Skullclan is a good Prc if you need Sneak undead, but you could just buy a +3 weapon with a Truedeath Augment crystal that allows it in Magic Item Comprehendruim.
The least one adds +1d6 damage versus undead. Masterowk weapon needed
Lesser adds ghost touch +least. +1 Weapon needed.
Greater does as above, but also treat undead alive for critical/sneak attacks. +3 weapon needed.

Cleric isn't a bad multiclass though.

Amiria
2007-10-10, 06:29 PM
... in Magic Item Comprehendruim.

What a horrible typo. It is Compendium ! Comprende ? :smalltongue:

....
2007-10-10, 06:30 PM
Just a sec, let me check Expedition to Castle Ravenloft...

Aha, there's an orginization called the Lightbringers that are devoted to destroying the undead. A rogue variant for them is the Lightbringer Rogue. They lose trapsense, but at 3rd level they can deal half their sneak attack to creatures normally immune to sneak attack (so not just undead) if they flank them.

You cannot sneak attack creatures who cannot be flanked, and you cannot sneak attack these creatures if they are flat-footed. The only way you deal sneak attack damage is when you flank them.

/shrug

If you're not going to be having lots of traps, I guess its better than nothing. There's probably something better out there.

Jack Mann
2007-10-10, 06:31 PM
There are a couple of ways to get sneak attack against the undead. One is gravestrike, but that requires some manner of casting ability, and it only lasts one round. You could UMD it, but you're looking at a reduction in your attack rate. A bit less expensive in the long run would be a truedeath crystal, from the Magic Items Compendium. It's fairly cheap, and you can use it as soon as you can get a +1 slapped onto your weapon, but I'm not sure if it works for melee weapons. There's also a +1 equivalent weapon ability that does the same thing, but again, I'm not sure if it's melee only or not.

EDIT: Ninja'd. I might be wrong on the level of truedeath crystal needed, as I'm away from my books.

Saph
2007-10-10, 06:37 PM
Truedeath Crystal will let you sneak attack undead, and works fine with a ranged weapon as far as I know (at least, I can't find anything in the MiC entry that says it doesn't).

However, you need a Greater Truedeath Crystal (10,000 gp) and a +3 weapon to put it on (18,000 gp). Not all that affordable.

You might as well just ask the DM how much an always-on custom item of Gravestrike would be. If you're knowingly playing a rogue in an undead-heavy campaign he might be nice and cut you a good price.

- Saph

Nattypat
2007-10-10, 06:46 PM
Page 35 of Magic Item Compendium has the Ghost Strike weapon, which allows you to sneak attack undead, though it needs to be place on a weapon which already has Ghost Touch (DMG 224). This comes to a total of a little over 18,000, though is much cheaper than a greater truedeath crystal.

For a cheaper solution, Magic Item Compendium has the Deathstrike Bracers on page 93 for only 5,000, which copies the effect of the Deathstrike spell, and is usable 3/day.

Jack Mann
2007-10-10, 06:59 PM
Of course, by the time you can easily afford those, you're at least level ten. Probably edging on closer to level eleven or twelve. If you can wait your primary caster reaches CL of 12 (depending on his class choice, feats, and equipment, this can happen by level 10), just get a pearl of power III for 9K. The wizard (or cleric, if he gets it through a domain) should be casting Greater Magic Weapon for the fighter (or himself, in the case of the cleric) anyway, so now he can cast it for you too. It's cheaper, though it may mean waiting a level or two.

Fax Celestis
2007-10-10, 07:06 PM
The Penetrating Strike alternate class feature from Dungeonscape lets you use half your Sneak Attack against normally immune foes, in exchange for your Trap Sense.

BardicDuelist
2007-10-10, 07:45 PM
The Penetrating Strike alternate class feature from Dungeonscape lets you use half your Sneak Attack against normally immune foes, in exchange for your Trap Sense.

This is probably the best, as it is easily accessable (class feature of the class you are in) and a low level ability (third level). The downside is that you only get half to SA, but the upside of that is it works against anything that is immune to critical hits. While I know you are in an all undead campaign, who's to say that you won't be facing an assassin vine or construct (which can popup in nearly any campaign). It is the hardest ability to nerf too (since taking your items, etc won't negate it just before that final BBEG that your DM wants to be a real challenge).

Also, trap sense kind of sucks (improves somthing you are allready probably the best at), so you really lose virtually nothing in exchange for this ability.

bugsysservant
2007-10-10, 08:41 PM
Well, let's see. Gravestrike is a first level cleric spell, so the CL can be one. The cost for a use activated item is CL*Spell Level*2000*4 (since Gravestrike is measured in rounds)=8000 gp. Not bad, but it could be better. So, we take that, and give it a prerequisite:must be a rogue (reduces price by 30%) with at least oh, let's say five ranks in UMD (reduces price by 10%) 8000*.6=4800 gp. So, an item that will let you sneak attack undead costs 4800 gp by RAW, easily affordable by sixth level, especially if you're in an all undead campaign.

Kaelik
2007-10-10, 09:12 PM
Skullclan Hunter has one advantage. You never need to qualify for SA against undead. You get it on all your attacks no matter what (against undead.) No more worries about flat-footed (since you are going ranged.)

BardicDuelist
2007-10-10, 09:24 PM
Skullclan Hunter has one advantage. You never need to qualify for SA against undead. You get it on all your attacks no matter what (against undead.) No more worries about flat-footed (since you are going ranged.)

Wha-!? Is this true? Wow, ok. Maybe that is your best option if you want to go melee. (And a Gravestrike weapon isn't bad, but I don't like to wait until level 6 to be effective, which is why I prefer the PS variant. Having both never really hurts though).

Jack Mann
2007-10-10, 09:45 PM
Really, I'd talk to your DM about letting you get a discount on one of these. You're going to need it to be able to contribute much in combat. I know I'd help you with it. Explain that you just want to be able to help the party out when it comes down to a fight. The rogue weakness to undead assumes that they're an occasional enemy. When you're going up against them most fights, it's not all that fair to you, if you can't do much.

serow
2007-10-10, 10:16 PM
The Penetrating Strike alternate class feature from Dungeonscape lets you use half your Sneak Attack against normally immune foes, in exchange for your Trap Sense.This is a very reliable ACF to take.

azule74
2007-10-10, 10:45 PM
Just a sec, let me check Expedition to Castle Ravenloft...

Aha, there's an orginization called the Lightbringers that are devoted to destroying the undead. A rogue variant for them is the Lightbringer Rogue. They lose trapsense, but at 3rd level they can deal half their sneak attack to creatures normally immune to sneak attack (so not just undead) if they flank them.

You cannot sneak attack creatures who cannot be flanked, and you cannot sneak attack these creatures if they are flat-footed. The only way you deal sneak attack damage is when you flank them.

/shrug

If you're not going to be having lots of traps, I guess its better than nothing. There's probably something better out there.

How did you know what game we are playing? :smallbiggrin: Anyway. I looked at that one, but being next the undead as a rogue.

azule74
2007-10-10, 10:49 PM
You might as well just ask the DM how much an always-on custom item of Gravestrike would be. If you're knowingly playing a rogue in an undead-heavy campaign he might be nice and cut you a good price.

- Saph



Yea I tried that too. he didn't like that idea. BUT thanks for the good idea. I will have to see how much he feels that it is worth.

Nermy
2007-10-10, 10:52 PM
The Holy Stalker alternative feature from Complete Champion is pretty sweet against undead, but you have to wait until you're at level 10 and give up crippling strike, so it may not be worth it, but you might be able to get your DM to let you stack it with sneak attack dice from other features since the wording on it is a little iffy about that.

Fixer
2007-10-11, 06:41 AM
How did you know what game we are playing? :smallbiggrin: Anyway. I looked at that one, but being next the undead as a rogue.
My buddy was playing a rogue in that campaign. He got fubar'd. He eventually got all angry and resentful and did stupid things that killed the campaign.

That said I think the Skullclan Hunter PrC sounds pretty good for you if it always allows sneak attacks vs undead. What book is that in?

JEEEEZZZ!!!!

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56795

With this prestige class you should be able to literally wipe the floor with 70% of what we encountered in that game. I won't spoil it for you to tell you what it won't work against.

SoD
2007-10-11, 07:41 AM
I could be wrong, but in the DMG, I think it lists information on an Undead Hunter...here we are, DMG pages 175-176.

Creating New Classes
It's possible to create entirely new classes, or rather, to alter existing classes so drastically that they're no longer recognizable. For example, you could make the following adjustments to the ranger.

null
Limit his weapon selection to resemble the rogue's list of weapon proficiencies.
Change his favored enemy ability so that it applies only to undead, and his bonus improves by 2 every five levels.
Give him the rogue's sneak attack ability, but change it so that it's only usable against undead.
Change his spell list so that it consists of spells that deal strictly with undead or that are used for subterfuge and sneaking.
At 3rd level, give him the paladin's smite evil ability, usable only against undead.


Now the class is the undead stalker, a stealthy character skilled in tracking and slaying undead.

Direct quote from the DMG, for what it's worth.

That's my 2 cp worth.

Saph
2007-10-11, 09:02 AM
Well, let's see. Gravestrike is a first level cleric spell, so the CL can be one. The cost for a use activated item is CL*Spell Level*2000*4 (since Gravestrike is measured in rounds)=8000 gp. Not bad, but it could be better. So, we take that, and give it a prerequisite:must be a rogue (reduces price by 30%) with at least oh, let's say five ranks in UMD (reduces price by 10%) 8000*.6=4800 gp. So, an item that will let you sneak attack undead costs 4800 gp by RAW, easily affordable by sixth level, especially if you're in an all undead campaign.

Yeah, and you could buy a use-activated item of True Strike while you're at it.

Those item creation rules are estimates - very vague and often-wrong estimates. Making a custom item always requires DM approval, and the DM sets the price. This was why I said "ask the DM for a price" rather than tell him.

- Saph

Person_Man
2007-10-11, 10:14 AM
Wha-!? Is this true? Wow, ok. Maybe that is your best option if you want to go melee. (And a Gravestrike weapon isn't bad, but I don't like to wait until level 6 to be effective, which is why I prefer the PS variant. Having both never really hurts though).

Yes it's true. Skullclan Hunter always qualifies for Sneak Attack damage vs. undead, without having to worry about flanking or denying them their Dex bonus. They also get immunity to virtually everything bad undead can do to you. They're one of the best non-caster Undead killer in the game. The down side is that their Sneak Attack doesn't progress very well, and they're pretty mediocre against enemies that aren't undead.

Here's a thread on the PrC (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56795&highlight=skullclan), if you're interested.

I suggest Rogue 5/Chameleon 3/Skullclan Hunter X. Be sure to take the Craven, Staggering Strike, and Undo Resistance feats.

My favorite thing about being a Skullclan Hunter is that they gain immunity to ability damage, which means that you can wear a Ring of X Ray Vision all day with no side effects, which is great for scouting and general roleplaying hilarity.

Renegade Paladin
2007-10-11, 10:20 AM
This is probably the best, as it is easily accessable (class feature of the class you are in) and a low level ability (third level). The downside is that you only get half to SA, but the upside of that is it works against anything that is immune to critical hits.
How is that a downside? You still get full sneak attack against things that aren't immune to critical hits as normal. It's not like the feature limits you in any way other than removing Trap Sense.

azule74
2007-10-11, 10:22 AM
Here's a thread on the PrC (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56795&highlight=skullclan), if you're interested.

I suggest Rogue 5/Chameleon 3/Skullclan Hunter X. Be sure to take the Craven and Staggering Strike feats.

My favorite thing about being a Skullclan Hunter is that they gain immunity to ability damage, which means that you can wear a Ring of X Ray Vision all day with no side effects, which is great for scouting and general roleplaying hilarity.

Thank you so much, now where is the Chameleon class? I am very interested into seeing that class too.

Renegade Paladin
2007-10-11, 10:35 AM
Chameleon is in Complete Scoundrel, as I recall.

Person_Man
2007-10-11, 10:36 AM
Thank you so much, now where is the Chameleon class? I am very interested into seeing that class too.

Here's the Chameleon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1), from Races of Destiny. It grants you Turn Undead without having to go into Cleric, allowing you entry into Skullclan Hunter. If also gives you other useful abilities, the most valuable being the floating bonus feat.

Craven is in Champions of Ruin, it adds +1 Sneak Attack damage per character level. Your DM might not let you take it, since it requires that you "cannot be immune to fear." A Skullclan Hunter is immune to fear effects from undead, but is not immune to fear in general.

Undo Spell Resistance is in the Fiendish Codex II. It allows you to trade Sneak Attack damage to lower SR, and multiple uses stack. It's hugely powerful against common "boss" enemies and various templates that provide SR.

Staggering Strike is in Complete Adventurer. When you Sneak Attack an enemy, they must Save (DC = damage) or be Staggered for 1 round, limiting them to a single Move or Standard action. Again, this is a hugely powerful feat, since it prevents your enemy from making full attacks and from casting certain spells (including most Summon spells).

azule74
2007-10-11, 10:47 AM
So I just looked into the Chameleon Prestige class and it says "You can't use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option. You can use your bonus feat to qualify for such options, but if you change the feat, you suffer the normal drawbacks for no longer meeting a prerequisite or requirement."

So I guess I will have to go Rogue/Cleric to get the Skullclan Hunter.

Person_Man
2007-10-11, 11:01 AM
So I just looked into the Chameleon Prestige class and it says "You can't use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option. You can use your bonus feat to qualify for such options, but if you change the feat, you suffer the normal drawbacks for no longer meeting a prerequisite or requirement."

So I guess I will have to go Rogue/Cleric to get the Skullclan Hunter.

Whoops, right you are. So I guess Rogue 5/Cleric 1/Skullclan Hunter X is what you have to do. Darn. At least this way you can pick up 2 Domain powers - maybe Celerity for +10 movement, Darkness for Blind Fighting, Time for Improved Initiative, Destiny for the Immediate re-roll of anything once per day, or Renewal for free healing if you drop below 0 hit points?

Azerian Kelimon
2007-10-11, 11:02 AM
Good decision. Chamaleon always sounds good on paper, but it ain't that useful in-game, unless you heavy tune it.