Help me make a god, not an avatar, a god

[moonfly7]

So, the party I DM needs to kill a god. I've seen similare posts in this forum, where everyone posting just tells the OP to just use an avatar or weakened version, but that isn't what I need help with, so please refrain from posting comments like that, as it's not gonna help me or you.
To continue, there's this goddess of magic whose made them wanted dead or alive by just about everyone, and for a series of complex reasons, they want her spot as a god usurped for her predecessor, who she thought she had killed, but lives on because one of the party still follows him. In the now vestiges weakened state, he can't help them very much.
Anyways, the goddess's name is meridian and she is heavily worshipped in my world, where just about everyone has magic and is born with special gifts. Now, the group does eventually want her permanently dead, which is possible but not easy.
They might try to weaken her by dealing with her followers, either killing them, or swaying vast amounts away from her. But they also might not, so I'm planning on statting up several tears of merridean, one as a full fledged goddess, and maybe 5, each slightly weaker versions. So I need help coming up with a starting point, what does a gods stats look like?
I know she'll have every spell in existence ready, and unlimited slots in her true form, and also heal ungodly amounts every round, but help would be much appreciated.

[Composer99]

You speak of spell slots, so I presume D&D/PF, excluding 4th. Which edition?

The buckets of regeneration, the PCs might be able to overcome. Unlimited spell slots probably guarantees Meridian's victory, especially in any edition other than 3.5, so you'll clearly need some means for them to weaken her, or to convince other deities in the setting to help them.

[Tiadoppler]

So, the party I DM needs to kill a god. I've seen similare posts in this forum, where everyone posting just tells the OP to just use an avatar or weakened version, but that isn't what I need help with, so please refrain from posting comments like that, as it's not gonna help me or you.
To continue, there's this goddess of magic whose made them wanted dead or alive by just about everyone, and for a series of complex reasons, they want her spot as a god usurped for her predecessor, who she thought she had killed, but lives on because one of the party still follows him. In the now vestiges weakened state, he can't help them very much.
Anyways, the goddess's name is meridian and she is heavily worshipped in my world, where just about everyone has magic and is born with special gifts. Now, the group does eventually want her permanently dead, which is possible but not easy.
They might try to weaken her by dealing with her followers, either killing them, or swaying vast amounts away from her. But they also might not, so I'm planning on statting up several tears of merridean, one as a full fledged goddess, and maybe 5, each slightly weaker versions. So I need help coming up with a starting point, what does a gods stats look like?
I know she'll have every spell in existence ready, and unlimited slots in her true form, and also heal ungodly amounts every round, but help would be much appreciated.

Disclaimer: 5e is not designed for combat against deities (assuming you're talking about 5e). There are no rules designed around killing deities permanently. If you want to kill a deity, it should be the main quest of an entire campaign, and require many steps involving weakening the target, gathering/strengthening your allies, finding ways around the target's many immunities and recovery methods.

I just finished running an epic campaign where 12 level 30 (no level cap) PCs with multiple pieces of legendary magic items each, assisted by 5 minor deities, the avatar of a 6th minor deity, and a group of 6 level 20 heroes of old managed to permanently destroy a single evil deity (statted up at CR 60ish after being weakened significantly over the course of a 4 year (irl) and 63 year (in-game) campaign). It was an epic accomplishment. They lost several armies (5, iirc), several major cities were utterly destroyed, and their homeland was occupied by their enemy for 50+ years.


Deities don't have stats in 5e. Before you weaken them by the power of plot, their stats look something like this:

Name: Don T Tryme
HP: Yes.
AC: Yes.

Str: 50 (+20) (Save +40)
Dex: 50 (+20) (Save +40)
Con: 50 (+20) (Save +40)
Int: 50 (+20) (Save +40)
Wis: 50 (+20) (Save +40)
Cha: 50 (+20) (Save +40)

Regains 400 HP per turn
Immune to conditions
Immune to non-magical damage
Resistant to magical damage
Immune to all spells of 6th-level and lower
Evasion, Improved Evasion

Aura of Power: Each turn, creatures within 300 feet of the deity's choice must make a CON save (DC 40) or take 100 Radiant damage.

Attacks (x10):
Divine Blast (range 1 mile): Hits automatically. 1d10+100 Force, Radiant or Necrotic damage.
Banhammer (melee 10'): Hits automatically. Target dies and cannot be returned to life.

Spells Known: All.
Spell Slots: Yes.

Legendary Resistance (10/day)
Legendary Actions (3/round): Take any action.


How weak is the deity after you weaken them? That's a plot question. A sufficiently important and successful quest could reduce them to CR 20 or less! It's all up to your worldbuilding, and how powerful you want your final boss to be.


If your party doesn't try to weaken the deity, they lose. Instantly. Their names would go down in your world's history as examples of foolish hubris, if anybody remembers them at all. That's what's supposed to happen.


But, at the end of the day, the power of a deity in your campaign setting is up to you. If you decide that the deities are just CR 35 dudes hanging around in their castles in the sky, that's a choice you can make. A good minimum power level is Tiamat's avatar's stats in Rise of Tiamat.

[moonfly7]

Disclaimer: 5e is not designed for combat against deities (assuming you're talking about 5e). There are no rules designed around killing deities permanently. If you want to kill a deity, it should be the main quest of an entire campaign, and require many steps involving weakening the target, gathering/strengthening your allies, finding ways around the target's many immunities and recovery methods.

I just finished running an epic campaign where 12 level 30 (no level cap) PCs with multiple pieces of legendary magic items each, assisted by 5 minor deities, the avatar of a 6th minor deity, and a group of 6 level 20 heroes of old managed to permanently destroy a single evil deity (statted up at CR 60ish after being weakened significantly over the course of a 4 year (irl) and 63 year (in-game) campaign). It was an epic accomplishment. They lost several armies (5, iirc), several major cities were utterly destroyed, and their homeland was occupied by their enemy for 50+ years.


Deities don't have stats in 5e. Before you weaken them by the power of plot, their stats look something like this:

Name: Don T Tryme
HP: Yes.
AC: Yes.

Str: 50 (+20) (Save +40)
Dex: 50 (+20) (Save +40)
Con: 50 (+20) (Save +40)
Int: 50 (+20) (Save +40)
Wis: 50 (+20) (Save +40)
Cha: 50 (+20) (Save +40)

Regains 400 HP per turn
Immune to conditions
Immune to non-magical damage
Resistant to magical damage
Immune to all spells of 6th-level and lower
Evasion, Improved Evasion

Aura of Power: Each turn, creatures within 300 feet of the deity's choice must make a CON save (DC 40) or take 100 Radiant damage.

Attacks (x10):
Divine Blast (range 1 mile): Hits automatically. 1d10+100 Force, Radiant or Necrotic damage.
Banhammer (melee 10'): Hits automatically. Target dies and cannot be returned to life.

Spells Known: All.
Spell Slots: Yes.

Legendary Resistance (10/day)
Legendary Actions (3/round): Take any action.


How weak is the deity after you weaken them? That's a plot question. A sufficiently important and successful quest could reduce them to CR 20 or less! It's all up to your worldbuilding, and how powerful you want your final boss to be.


If your party doesn't try to weaken the deity, they lose. Instantly. Their names would go down in your world's history as examples of foolish hubris, if anybody remembers them at all. That's what's supposed to happen.


But, at the end of the day, the power of a deity in your campaign setting is up to you. If you decide that the deities are just CR 35 dudes hanging around in their castles in the sky, that's a choice you can make. A good minimum power level is Tiamat's avatar's stats in Rise of Tiamat.
Ok, first off, thank you, the spoiler example stats really help. Secondly, I agree with the big undertaking lots of items thing, but the bold text isn't nessacarily true. I don't think it would be easy or probable to kill her at the level she'll be at without weakening, but you can do it, if your smart, good, incredibly lucky, and my party is all of those things.
But thanks for all the advice.

[moonfly7]

Oh, and yeah, it's 5e

[Tiadoppler]

Ok, first off, thank you, the spoiler example stats really help. Secondly, I agree with the big undertaking lots of items thing, but the bold text isn't nessacarily true. I don't think it would be easy or probable to kill her at the level she'll be at without weakening, but you can do it, if your smart, good, incredibly lucky, and my party is all of those things.
But thanks for all the advice.

I'm glad the sample stats were helpful :D. When I ran my (severely weakened) deity, these were the stats I actually used:
AC 30
HP 2000/2000

Speed 40', Swim 40', Flight 40', Burrow 40', Teleport 40'

STR 20: +5
DEX 20: +5 (+20)
CON 30: +10 (+25)
INT 20: +5
WIS 20: +5 (+20)
CHA 30: +10 (+25)
Acrobatics +20 Arcana +20 Athletics +20 Deception +40 Insight +20 Intimidation +25 Perception +20 Stealth +20
Passive Perception 30

Advantage on Spell Saving Throws
Resist Magical Damage
Immune Non-Magical Damage
Immunities Disease, Poison, Aging, Hunger, Thirst, Suffocation, Charm, Paralyzed, Frightened, Dominated, Stunned, Divination spells
Immune to the effects of 6th-level and lower spells.
Truesight 300', Telepathy 300'

Legendary Defenses (3/day)

Spell and ability saving throw DC: 32

At the start of each creature's turn, they suffer the effects of Death Aura, if they are within range.
Death Aura (1-10 miles): DC 24 CON save or 20 Radiant damage
Death Aura (300'<1 mile): DC 28 CON save or 40 Radiant damage
Death Aura (<300'): DC 32 CON save or 80 Radiant damage

2 times per round, on initiative 6 and 14, you can regenerate 50 HP, and then move

5 times per round, on initiative 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20, you can use all of the following attacks against a single target:
> 2x Eldritch Blast +25, 1d10+15
> 1x Machine Pistol +20, 2d6+10. Any target reduced to 0 HP by a Machine Pistol attack must make a DC 32 CHA save or instantly die, their soul devoured. When a creature is killed in this manner, you regain HP equal to half of the target's maximum HP.
> 1x Glaive (melee only) +20, 1d10+15


2 times per round, on initiative 10 and 18, cast one of the following spells:
> Power Word Kill 1/1
> Wish 1/1
> Feeblemind 3/3
> Plane Shift 3/3
> Teleport 3/3
> Vicious Mockery: DC 32 WIS save or 10d4 damage and Disadvantage on your next attack roll (at-will)
> Dispel Magic (at-will)

Legendary Reactions (3/rd)
> Counterspell (at-will)
Then, the various deities allied to the PCs were able to concentrate on disabling certain abilities of the BBEG, like the death aura and regeneration, rendering the enemy more vulnerable. The PC spellcasters spammed huge numbers of counterspells, and the party eventually won. There were several deaths among the PCs, and the PC wizard lost the ability to use Wish.

It's your campaign, and you get to decide all the worldbuilding details, but, in my opinion, if a party of level 20s has a chance of beating a deity in a straight-up fight (not a weakened avatar, like Tiamat in Rise of Tiamat, but an actual deity), then the deity is not well/properly designed by 5e's standards. The bold text was my summary/interpretation/understanding of 5e's design parameters + fluff for deities. They aren't statted up by RAW because they operate on a different tier of gameplay than mortal player characters, and a deity who hasn't been rendered vulnerable in some way shouldn't have stats at all, just a single line saying "the mortals lose."

[moonfly7]

Thank you for the extra stats, I really need the refferences, so thanks!

They aren't statted up by RAW because they operate on a different tier of gameplay than mortal player characters, and a deity who hasn't been rendered vulnerable in some way shouldn't have stats at all, just a single line saying "the mortals lose."
That mentality right there is something my players, and I, kind of despise. It can best be summed up like this: one time we found a meme on the internet that showed a picture of a DND god and said "gods, just because they have stats, doesn't mean you can kill it" exactly 5 seconds later, the image was edited by one of my players to read "gods, if it has stats WE can kill it" and thus, how my players think is revealed to you. Every creature needs stats, no matter how week or how strong. And once it exists, then there's always going to be a chance they win, and that's all they need.
DND is a game where your supposed to be able to do anything, saying "we can't even give it stats, it doesn't make sense it should just win" isn't fitting into the purpose of rpgs in general. So honestly, there's a 70% chance my players never weaken meridian, and you know what? One of the things I can do is make a broken, OP monster. But, if I'm honest right here and now, even though they haven't realised it yet, I don't think anything short of an unweakened god can stop my players.
Thank you for all the help, I love the references, they help a lot. But at the beginning I said I wanted help making a full blown goddess who is as strong as a popular goddess of magic can be. I can do nerfing just fine, it's raw unadulterated crazy power I'm finding hard to make. So, for everyone, please don't start the "he needs to weaken the god" crusade. I know how to do that, but I'm probably gonna end up using the full power one. I know my party, I know how they work. So far, everything they've killed should have easily killed them, and they aren't stopping now.
So, if you have ideas for a goddess of magic Arsenal, great, I'd love to hear it. But if you want to let me know I'm a terrible or misguided DM, your not making the best use of your time.

[moonfly7]

asked my party if they were ok with fighting the god and not just a avatar, explained everything from this page, and other sites as well, they sent me an image, but I didn't know how to add it to this post, but its the same meme I mentioned before, only now it says this:
GODS: even if it doesn't have stats, we'll find a way to kill it.
my players ladies and gentleman, I love them dearly. so, my parties ready, now all I need is the bossy boss, when I do finish it, does anyone wish to see it?

[Composer99]

If Meridian is a deity with unlimited spell slots, what's stopping her from using those spell slots to use divinations to foresee real or potential threats, and unlimited 9th-level spells to neutralise them? She could be doing this weeks, months, years in advance. How are these supposedly unstoppable PCs going to deal with that?

Anyway, if you want more resources, look up the epic-level rules and divine rules in the 3.5 SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm). There'd be a fair bit of work to translate them into 5e mechanics, but it might give you some inspiration.

[moonfly7]

If Meridian is a deity with unlimited spell slots, what's stopping her from using those spell slots to use divinations to foresee real or potential threats, and unlimited 9th-level spells to neutralise them? She could be doing this weeks, months, years in advance. How are these supposedly unstoppable PCs going to deal with that?

Anyway, if you want more resources, look up the epic-level rules and divine rules in the 3.5 SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm). There'd be a fair bit of work to translate them into 5e mechanics, but it might give you some inspiration.

Not unstoppable, simply very lucky and smart. Also, I don't use spells like that, when the players use them, I make it clear they're getting the knowledge of another entity, which could he wrong. Generally we don't use them though because none of us like them, I don't even know what the future of this game holds, so how can we ask? As for wish, I don't let it do too much more than what is listed in the book, even gods can't just have whatever they want by casting wish in my world, or else all the 9th level wizards would be gods too.
Also, the goddess is clouded by hubris, she thought her foe slain, and the player simply the last vestiges of his power, which he is. She keeps sending her high powered epic level servants after them, but they keep winning and escaping. Eventually they'll rate important enough for her to deal with, but right now, she has other things to do.

[Grod_The_Giant]

But, at the end of the day, the power of a deity in your campaign setting is up to you. If you decide that the deities are just CR 35 dudes hanging around in their castles in the sky, that's a choice you can make. A good minimum power level is Tiamat's avatar's stats in Rise of Tiamat.
This. You could say gods are around CR 25 or so, on a par with things like demon lords and really ancient dragons. You could say they're CR: Nope and beyond the power of mortals. There are no official rules to follow or contradict. Just... pick a CR.

If pressed, I'd be inclined to say ~CR 30 for a god-slayer campaign. That puts you comfortably beyond the power of mortals, enough above the demon lords to show a difference in power but not so much that you can't imagine the demons overcoming it, and within easy reach of a world-ending nightmare like the tarrasque. It's also, coincidentally, probably about as far as you can go before the rules of the game start completely breaking down.

[Tiadoppler]

Thank you for the extra stats, I really need the refferences, so thanks!
That mentality right there is something my players, and I, kind of despise. It can best be summed up like this: one time we found a meme on the internet that showed a picture of a DND god and said "gods, just because they have stats, doesn't mean you can kill it" exactly 5 seconds later, the image was edited by one of my players to read "gods, if it has stats WE can kill it" and thus, how my players think is revealed to you. Every creature needs stats, no matter how week or how strong. And once it exists, then there's always going to be a chance they win, and that's all they need.
DND is a game where your supposed to be able to do anything, saying "we can't even give it stats, it doesn't make sense it should just win" isn't fitting into the purpose of rpgs in general. So honestly, there's a 70% chance my players never weaken meridian, and you know what? One of the things I can do is make a broken, OP monster. But, if I'm honest right here and now, even though they haven't realised it yet, I don't think anything short of an unweakened god can stop my players.


Fair enough. I can only really comment on my table's playstyle, and we tend to have a more 'cosmic horror' styled cosmology, where deities (and similar outsider creatures) have enough power that they're playing an entirely different game than the PCs. The issue is that, in 5e (by design), the stats only really work well in the range of 'human' to 'superhero'.

The mechanics don't support creating creatures that are truly beyond 'superhero' in power (unless you literally start saying 'immune to everything' 'takes multiple turns per round' and 'has permanent Foresight'... at a bare minimum), because the granularity isn't there. For a similar reason, it's difficult to stat out the differences between cockroaches and ants. So, 5e's designers threw up their hands (metaphorically, I assume) and said 'deities don't have stats because they are beyond what we can easily represent in game terms. We've focused on a specific power range for our design, and deities fall outside that range. Instead, we'll include some aspects and avatars of deities. Killing them doesn't actually harm the deity, but it can disrupt their plans temporarily.'


Personally, I disagree with the assertion that "DND is a game where your supposed to be able to do anything". At their root, RPGs are just a structure (set of limitations defining what you can and cannot do) for creating stories.

But this is all irrelevant/playstyle discussion, and your party's having fun. If your players like stories where they are the baddest things in the universe, that's just fine. As their DM, you should write a campaign where they can have that story, and have a great time doing it! I think the sweet spot for 'what a 4-5 person group of clever, high-level, optimized PCs with good magical gear can beat up' is around CR 32-35. For a better challenge, make sure that that enemy has lots of action economy advantages, or the PCs will likely win too easily.

[moonfly7]

Fair enough. I can only really comment on my table's playstyle, and we tend to have a more 'cosmic horror' styled cosmology, where deities (and similar outsider creatures) have enough power that they're playing an entirely different game than the PCs. The issue is that, in 5e (by design), the stats only really work well in the range of 'human' to 'superhero'.

The mechanics don't support creating creatures that are truly beyond 'superhero' in power (unless you literally start saying 'immune to everything' 'takes multiple turns per round' and 'has permanent Foresight'... at a bare minimum), because the granularity isn't there. For a similar reason, it's difficult to stat out the differences between cockroaches and ants. So, 5e's designers threw up their hands (metaphorically, I assume) and said 'deities don't have stats because they are beyond what we can easily represent in game terms. We've focused on a specific power range for our design, and deities fall outside that range. Instead, we'll include some aspects and avatars of deities. Killing them doesn't actually harm the deity, but it can disrupt their plans temporarily.'


Personally, I disagree with the assertion that "DND is a game where your supposed to be able to do anything". At their root, RPGs are just a structure (set of limitations defining what you can and cannot do) for creating stories.

But this is all irrelevant/playstyle discussion, and your party's having fun. If your players like stories where they are the baddest things in the universe, that's just fine. As their DM, you should write a campaign where they can have that story, and have a great time doing it! I think the sweet spot for 'what a 4-5 person group of clever, high-level, optimized PCs with good magical gear can beat up' is around CR 32-35. For a better challenge, make sure that that enemy has lots of action economy advantages, or the PCs will likely win too easily.
Right now, the "baddest things in the universe" are scarred out there minds by the gods super enforcer adventuring party. Ironically they fear them, but not the goddess herself. I love them so. But the diety of statted up is actually really high power level. She has ten thousand health unweakened. But I do plan on heavily weakening her. If they manage to do it, which they should, they'll get tons of options.

[BerzerkerUnit]

I'll offer the observation that in my settings gods are so powerful that their presence on the material plane would warp the very fabric of reality; their spoken word would devastate the land for miles. Unlimited spells? A god walking the material plane would unconsciously change the world with each little, fleeting emotion.

If I was plotting this I'd say the characters needed to be the fanatical servants of the previous god, building support for the usurped god, tearing down the support of the incumbent, and finally bringing enough power to the previous god that it can do the job. Directly challenging the existing deity? I'm not going to say it can't be done because the players/characters should be free to come up with a plan and try it, but I can't even begin to think how to stat out a being that can accidentally destroy the world. Start with infinite hit points?

I can't see doing this through most conventional combat. Some massive soul-binding or banishment that the characters develop and find enough magic power to enact? Getting a god-slayer weapon from another god or some very powerful demons/devils? Tricking the god into destroying itself?

I'll be interested to see how this develops.

There are a couple ways to do this.

Thwarting: you don't fight the god, its casting some ridiculous spell with a big cast time (1 hour+) and the players have that long to steal/destroy the focus (no rest dungeon run), distract her so she loses concentration (threaten her favorite Aasimar, etc.) Example: They have a Rod w/one charge per character that casts Tasha's Hideous Laughter as an epic spell (so the god can't legendary save it). They each take a turn telling a joke and whichever one makes you laugh succeeds, if no one has a good joke, the world is forever changed by god.

Fighting with help: When you first encounter the god it is immune to everything and deals damage equal to Max HP with every attack. After doing a quest/campaign, the PCs get the boons of other gods, absorb some lost god's divine essence to become lesser gods themselves, find the divine weapons, wtvr. Then you fight a legendary version of a CR appropriate NPC.

Banking on Cheese: You make a character with +15 to every save, 5 legendary saves, 5 legendary actions, 3 attacks/round, 800hp, 2-3 fifth level spells at will, a couple of 6+ 1/days and a few metamagics. Mage Slayer or Warcaster as appropriate. Then you drop this on your L20 PCs and assume they've optimized themselves to par. Like a Paladin/Fighter/Assassin that gets mindblank, Haste, Greater Invis and Etherealness cast on them so they can get surprise on the god and then guaranteed Crit Smite on 4 attacks before the rest of the party comes in to use scrolls of meteor swarm and unleash the army of elementals.

[moonfly7]

What I've done is make 10 versions of merridean, each slightly weaker. They have things they can do to mess with her, including visiting the spit she first touched the material plane, which will do some fun things I dare not post where my players might see it. They're already going to her touchdown spot, along with the other gods as well, so powers are gonna accumulate. Secondly, one of the things my group actually inspired on accident is a massive natural antimagic field, it's been there since before the gods, roughly the size of a large island, it can short out any magic, and weaken even a gods holy power, albeight marginally.

[moonfly7]

Also, I'm more concerned about braux sleet, one of her adventurers, found here:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?594561-Converting-mach-44-to-extra-damage
Than her. My team feels the same way, considering sleet could destroy her 10,000 health in one hit.

[Chaos_Laicosin]

It sounds like you've got your stuff figured, but here's my 10 cents. I've always considered gods to be level 50+ characters

I've always treated levels 20-30 as being epic (bards regale exploits), levels 30-40 are legendary (your exploits are recorded and retold through ages), levels 40-50 are lesser deity (gaining an active following, people emulate you), Levels 50-60 are proper deity (huge following, entire cultures emulate you), Levels 60+ are greater deity (entire planes of existence emulate your will)

By cherry picking features, abilities, and spells from any class/race and following that level scheme, I can finagle together a formidable foe (or ally) that still follows the core mechanics of the game.

That said, I've also never run a campaign that puts my PCs past epic levels. It might not be as notable of a challenge with level 40 PCs.

[Vogie]

DM Dave has an breakdown of statting out Thanos (https://dmdave.com/thanos-5e-dnd/) from Endgame, which is a nice breakdown of the decisions that go into the creation of a CR 30-level creature.

[moonfly7]

It sounds like you've got your stuff figured, but here's my 10 cents. I've always considered gods to be level 50+ characters

I've always treated levels 20-30 as being epic (bards regale exploits), levels 30-40 are legendary (your exploits are recorded and retold through ages), levels 40-50 are lesser deity (gaining an active following, people emulate you), Levels 50-60 are proper deity (huge following, entire cultures emulate you), Levels 60+ are greater deity (entire planes of existence emulate your will)

By cherry picking features, abilities, and spells from any class/race and following that level scheme, I can finagle together a formidable foe (or ally) that still follows the core mechanics of the game.

That said, I've also never run a campaign that puts my PCs past epic levels. It might not be as notable of a challenge with level 40 PCs.
Thank you. This is something I really needed to hear, and it makes me immensely happy to hear from someone running on a similare wave length (not that everyone posting isnt great, or giving AMAZING advice, this just sounds similare to what I've been doing, and is thus encouraging). I am absolutly happy to get this advice, it's given me some better ideas on how to run this, thank you.
It's really good to see a positive, constructive post actually. All the ones on homebrew have been amazing and helpful and great, but I think I've accidently offended people on other forums, and had to take a break from the site for a bit because reading the comments was bad for my mental health. So this is a refreshing thing indeed.


I'll offer the observation that in my settings gods are so powerful that their presence on the material plane would warp the very fabric of reality; their spoken word would devastate the land for miles. Unlimited spells? A god walking the material plane would unconsciously change the world with each little, fleeting emotion.

If I was plotting this I'd say the characters needed to be the fanatical servants of the previous god, building support for the usurped god, tearing down the support of the incumbent, and finally bringing enough power to the previous god that it can do the job. Directly challenging the existing deity? I'm not going to say it can't be done because the players/characters should be free to come up with a plan and try it, but I can't even begin to think how to stat out a being that can accidentally destroy the world. Start with infinite hit points?

I can't see doing this through most conventional combat. Some massive soul-binding or banishment that the characters develop and find enough magic power to enact? Getting a god-slayer weapon from another god or some very powerful demons/devils? Tricking the god into destroying itself?

I'll be interested to see how this develops.

Thanks for being interested! Makes me feel good. So, that has me wondering, if I were to start a campaign log about my groups adventures, would anyone want to see how they unfold? I'd post a link to it here if that happened, of course.

[Beleriphon]

I think the idea of statting a god while amusing, it futile in D&D 5E. At 20th level the characters can fight epic being, the whole point of RoT is that Tiamat is pushing through to the mortal plane. IIRC she's something like CR35. Fighting a god on their home is akin to fighting a hurricane with swords or an earthquake with arrows. You just can't do it.

Rage of Demons has demon lords in the Underdark with stats. Demogorgon, by the far the strongest of them, is CR32 and that's not an avatar, that's full blown Demogorgon in all on his destructive glory.