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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Chiro (Batfolk Race) [5e] [PEACH]



Sir_Popard
2019-08-05, 05:55 PM
I wish I had a more mature rationale for building this race but I basically saw a cute gif of baby bats this morning and decided that this was going to happen. Also, I like the idea of playing a bat-person.

I tried to keep them fairly moderate but I know there's still a bit too much going on.

Vampiric Bite is admittedly a bit cluttered - it's basically a mashup of Plane Shift Ixalan's Vampires and Volo's Lizardfolk.
I don't really like the idea of toning down their flight but I suspect it's their most potent trait. *sigh*


If anyone has suggestions on stream-lining this, I'm all ears.

http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/mmiii_gallery/83027.jpg
Artist: Mark Tedin

CHIRO

Despite their somewhat alien appearance, once our expedition earned their trust, we found the curious bat-like folks as hospitable as halflings. They were generous with their food, a combination of mushrooms, cave insects, and a ruddy, iron-tasting drink only I amongst our party was brave enough (or, as one of my companions remarked, fool enough) to partake in.
In hindsight, upon seeing the primary ingredients of the beverage later on, she may have been right.
óIain Elias Turtletaub, Explorations in the Underdark, Vol. IV

CHIRO TRAITS
Your chiro character has the following traits.
Ability Score Increase. Your Dexterity score increases by 2, Your Wisdom score increases by 1, and your Strength score is reduced by 2.
Age. Chiro mature faster than humans, reaching adulthood around age 14 and rarely live beyond 60.
Alignment. Most chiro are lawful neutral, with a strong dedication to community and close harmony with nature.
Size. Chiros average about 3 feet tall and weigh about 40 pounds. Your size is Small.
Speed. Your base walking speed is 20 feet.
Glide. Using your leathery, winged arms, you can slow your fall, and glide short distances. When falling you can use your reaction to spread your arms, stiffen your wing, and slow your descent. While doing so, you continue to fall gently at a speed of 60 feet per round, taking no fall damage when you land. If you would fall at least 10 feet in this way, you may fly up to your movement speed in one direction you choose, although you cannot choose to move upwards, landing in the space you finish your movement. You cannot glide while carrying heavy weapons or wielding a shield (though you may drop any held items as part of your reaction to spread your arms). You cannot glide while wearing heavy armor, or if you are encumbered.
Blindsight. Accustomed to life in the jungle night or cavern depths, you can perceive your surroundings without relying on sight. Your echolocation gives you blindsight out to a range of 10 feet.
You canít use blindsight while deafened.
Vampiric Bite. Your fanged maw is a natural weapon, which you can use to make unarmed strikes. Your bite has the finesse property. If you hit with it, you deal piercing damage equal to 1d4 + your Dexterity modifier, instead of the bludgeoning damage normal for an unarmed strike.
You can drain blood from a willing creature, or one that is grappled by you, incapacitated, or restrained. Make a bite attack against the target. If the attack hits, it deals its normal damage, and you regain hit points (minimum of 1) equal to your Constitution modifier, and you can't use this trait again until you finish a short or long rest.
Hunterís Cry. As an action, you expel a sharp burst of sound at a creature you can sense within 30 ft. If the target can hear you, it must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or take 2d4 thunder damage and be stunned until the end of your next turn. The damage increases to 3d4 at 6th level, 4d4 at 11th level, and 5d4 at 16th level. The DC for this saving throw equals 8 + your Wisdom modifier + your proficiency bonus.
After you use your hunterís cry, you can't use it again until you complete a short or long rest.
Languages. You can speak, read, and write Common and Undercommon.

HUNTERíS CRY
1st level evocation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V
Duration: Instantaneous
You shriek a burst of piercing sound at a creature you can sense within range. If the target can hear you, it must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or take 2d4 thunder damage and be stunned until the end of your next turn.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the extra damage increases by 1d4 for each slot level above 1st.

Sindeloke
2019-08-05, 07:56 PM
Blindsight is not nearly as potent in 5e as in previous editions. It's basically just Devil's Sight except you can't read and the distance is capped. You could make it permanent without any real fear of making them too powerful. Flight and stun are both way more of a concern and much more important to put hard limits on. The stun in particular, that should never be a cantrip. Even monks can't spam it endlessly and it's basically half their power budget.

Sir_Popard
2019-08-05, 09:04 PM
Blindsight is not nearly as potent in 5e as in previous editions. It's basically just Devil's Sight except you can't read and the distance is capped. You could make it permanent without any real fear of making them too powerful. Flight and stun are both way more of a concern and much more important to put hard limits on. The stun in particular, that should never be a cantrip. Even monks can't spam it endlessly and it's basically half their power budget.

That is reassuring about Blindsight. It seemed pretty costly in the Detect Balance (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vq1kz6PRAbw5LHy6amH-bNb4OuB8DBXL1RsZROt03Sc/edit#gid=0) sheet so I had reservations. I may go back and adjust it.

You're right about Hunter's cry. I've tweaked it a bit, but I suspect it's still too much. I noted that the first spell to give you the chance to stun a target is 5th level but I was (and, really, still am) in "Jurassic Park scientist" mode.

I've made some adjustments based on your suggestions. Thank you for your feedback.

sandmote
2019-08-06, 03:18 PM
My measurements on detect balance:

ASI total: +8
ASI synergy: +2
Flight: +16
Walking: -3
Movement synergy: +2
Blindsight: +8
Skill: +2
Advantage on hearing (from a comment): +5
Bite: +2
Vamipiric: +3
1st level Spell: +3

Total: 48. 46 if you assume dex builds also want strength.

I'm going to suggest pushing back the spell to 3rd level and removing the bite entirely (few bats have any power behind their bites, and fewer still drink blood). Bats (while not being blind) also don't have excellent sight, so you could also take out proficiency with perception. That brings you to 40/38.

Beyond that I'm really not sure. Flight with a 20 ft speed, the ASI and blindsight alone are 33/31 on detect balance. I've previously assumed only +4 for 10 foot blindsight, so that might be an option?

I will however, note that Paralysis is Stunned++ in 5e, and there is the 2nd level Hold Person spell. The only real benefit of stunning is that far fewer creatures are immune to being stunned than paralyzed. So a low level stun spell isn't that big of an issue.

Sir_Popard
2019-08-06, 11:20 PM
My measurements on detect balance:

ASI total: +8
ASI synergy: +2
Flight: +16
Walking: -3
Movement synergy: +2
Blindsight: +8
Skill: +2
Advantage on hearing (from a comment): +5
Bite: +2
Vamipiric: +3
1st level Spell: +3

Total: 48. 46 if you assume dex builds also want strength.

I'm going to suggest pushing back the spell to 3rd level and removing the bite entirely (few bats have any power behind their bites, and fewer still drink blood). Bats (while not being blind) also don't have excellent sight, so you could also take out proficiency with perception. That brings you to 40/38.

Beyond that I'm really not sure. Flight with a 20 ft speed, the ASI and blindsight alone are 33/31 on detect balance. I've previously assumed only +4 for 10 foot blindsight, so that might be an option?

I will however, note that Paralysis is Stunned++ in 5e, and there is the 2nd level Hold Person spell. The only real benefit of stunning is that far fewer creatures are immune to being stunned than paralyzed. So a low level stun spell isn't that big of an issue.

Thank you for crunching the numbers in Detect Balance. I appreciate your taking the time. I donít always trust my findings when I do so.

In regard to the vampiric bite, earlier critique on a different race Iíd built suggested that natural weapons on player races often arenít worth it and Iíve sort of taken it as a personal challenge to create a compelling (but balanced) natural attack. I know itís not fully scientifically accurate, but the bite also isnít readily usable in combat (much like a vampire batís). If it just doesnít feel like something one would use, well, that would be a different story.

Blindsight with a range of 10 feet might be a good compromise, but it still feels like inadequate somehow. Maybe 15 feet? Iíll give it some thought. Iím very hesitant to lower the flying speed. Flight is a blessing at any speed but being a slow walker and a slow flyer seems... sadder.

I hadnít considered Hold Person (a relatively low-level paralysis spell potentially lasting multiple rounds) in comparison to Hunterís Cry (a chance of a one-turn stun). In retrospect it doesnít seem quite as potent. It is curious that canonical spells grant access to paralysis three spell levels earlier than stun. Perhaps, though, it is for the immunity issue you mentioned.

sandmote
2019-08-07, 11:32 AM
In regard to the vampiric bite, earlier critique on a different race Iíd built suggested that natural weapons on player races often arenít worth it and Iíve sort of taken it as a personal challenge to create a compelling (but balanced) natural attack. I know itís not fully scientifically accurate, but the bite also isnít readily usable in combat (much like a vampire batís). If it just doesnít feel like something one would use, well, that would be a different story.

Blindsight with a range of 10 feet might be a good compromise, but it still feels like inadequate somehow. Maybe 15 feet? Iíll give it some thought. Iím very hesitant to lower the flying speed. Flight is a blessing at any speed but being a slow walker and a slow flyer seems... sadder. I think the issue is having blindsight, flight, and a usable natural weapon on a single race. Generally, each of those three would be the major feature for a given race.

If you want vampire bat fluff I'd add a racial feat, but trying a to make an unarmed strike/natural weapon players will want to use should probably be the major feature of a race by itself.


I hadnít considered Hold Person (a relatively low-level paralysis spell potentially lasting multiple rounds) in comparison to Hunterís Cry (a chance of a one-turn stun). In retrospect it doesnít seem quite as potent. It is curious that canonical spells grant access to paralysis three spell levels earlier than stun. Perhaps, though, it is for the immunity issue you mentioned.I'm guessing its for the immunity, but I've gone ahead and written versions of Hold Person and Hold Monster that are the same level but stun the target. I really only expect either to be learned by high level warlocks, so it's still not really an issue.

Sir_Popard
2019-08-07, 12:03 PM
I think the issue is having blindsight, flight, and a usable natural weapon on a single race. Generally, each of those three would be the major feature for a given race.

If you want vampire bat fluff I'd add a racial feat, but trying a to make an unarmed strike/natural weapon players will want to use should probably be the major feature of a race by itself.

I'm guessing its for the immunity, but I've gone ahead and written versions of Hold Person and Hold Monster that are the same level but stun the target. I really only expect either to be learned by high level warlocks, so it's still not really an issue.

Okay, I better understand your points about those traits now; these are valid concerns. Even stripping down the other racial traits, I'm probably still trying to do too much in a single race. sigh

I'll consider the racial feat idea, I just don't really like breaking up racial traits that way. But, again, I'll think it over.

I'd be curious to hear how the alternate versions of Hold Person/Monster play out.

I meant to say earlier: Thank you for the feedback. You've helped me put some things in perspective.

sandmote
2019-08-07, 01:04 PM
Personally, I like breaking up traits that way. Helps you make racial options stronger than a base race can be.


I'd be curious to hear how the alternate versions of Hold Person/Monster play out. That one was pretty much theorycrafting, but the idea is players asking "why would I ever take this," until they're high level warlocks, when they say "might as well, there's no good options left." Then you can throw a pair of Iron Golems at the party to make the warlock feel useful.

I've written it our here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?576879-Warlock-Spell-and-Invocation-Options), in which case you may notice I've kept it away from wizards (as they can prepare it for reasons like the above, but don't need the buff).


I meant to say earlier: Thank you for the feedback. You've helped me put some things in perspective. Glad to hear I'm not wasting your time. :smallredface:

MagneticKitty
2019-08-07, 05:06 PM
I've wanted to make a bat race for a while. Just haven't gotten to it. And with fly being so discouraged it kinda put me off of making one.

And while this has a lot of good ideas, I think subraces would be a good idea. Not all bats drink blood. Not all bats have echolocation.

Base: flight 25, walk 25
Dex +2
Wings: in order to use your fly speed, while flying you may not hold objects, interact with items, perform spells with somatic or material components, be wearing medium or heavy armor, or weild weapons or shields.

As a side note, might be able to slightly reduce flights potency by restricting it in these ways.
(Since their wings are their hands it makes sense.)


Maybe subtypes like:

Vampire bat: dex bite is key feature, with less restriction on when the hp drain happens. Standard darkvision. (Int +1)

Fruit bat: medium size, no str penalty. Perception proficiency, walk and fly 30. (Str +1)

Insectivore: blindsight and sonic spell moved into a once per long or short rest feature based on dragonborn breath (cone thunder damage). causes deafness instead of stun on a failed save. (Wis +1)

Also some cute art maybe for fruit bat variety:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/387096162022326294/598608877470089247/1e7dfbb7b365daa989ed8ebb8deabec7.jpg
It's like a sky pupper.

Bjarkmundur
2019-08-08, 02:43 AM
A very nice brew!

Subraces are overrated
Cute artwork is underrated

Sir_Popard
2019-08-28, 12:10 PM
A very nice brew!
Subraces are overrated
Cute artwork is underrated

Thank you. ^_^

As a player I wouldnít describe subraces as overrated but as a content creatorÖ When I create a monster player race, Iím generally not looking to create subraces. I generally focus on a single archetype, as seen in the races found in the Monster Manual or Voloís Guide. I generally struggle to balance a single race, the idea of crafting and balancing subraces seems a bit exhausting.
I conclusively agree that the art is very cute, thoí.


I've wanted to make a bat race for a while. Just haven't gotten to it. And with fly being so discouraged it kinda put me off of making one.
And while this has a lot of good ideas, I think subraces would be a good idea. Not all bats drink blood. Not all bats have echolocation.
Base: flight 25, walk 25
Dex +2
Wings: in order to use your fly speed, while flying you may not hold objects, interact with items, perform spells with somatic or material components, be wearing medium or heavy armor, or weild weapons or shields.
As a side note, might be able to slightly reduce flights potency by restricting it in these ways.
(Since their wings are their hands it makes sense.)
Maybe subtypes like:
Vampire bat: dex bite is key feature, with less restriction on when the hp drain happens. Standard darkvision. (Int +1)
Fruit bat: medium size, no str penalty. Perception proficiency, walk and fly 30. (Str +1)
Insectivore: blindsight and sonic spell moved into a once per long or short rest feature based on dragonborn breath (cone thunder damage). causes deafness instead of stun on a failed save. (Wis +1)


As I mentioned to Bjarkmundur, the art is very cute. Thank you for sharing.

Iím glad I could inspire you to revisit the concept of the bat race and subraces, but, as I also mentioned the Bjarkmundur, Iím not overly keen on crafting subraces. I recognize that there are a variety of bats with different traits and feeding habits but I like a core archetypal monster race. Does that present me with too many eggs in one basket? Perhaps. But that's just my hill to die on.

Iíve elected to give them limited flying, as borrowed from Astrolagoís Faerie Fire race, the Uplifted Gutterkin. They can fly, but they need to land or they start to fall at the end of their move. Adding further rules clutter about keeping their hands free and such feelsÖ like a misstep. While I like the hand-wings, Iíd just as soon take them to the aarakocra body model than get into all of that.
Thank you for the feedback, thoí. Itís been helpful and seeing your take on the concept has been interesting.

Bjarkmundur
2019-08-28, 04:17 PM
I'm happy with this as a final product, well done :D

Sir_Popard
2019-08-31, 02:21 PM
All right, if no one has any further criticisms or suggestions, I'm 'bout ready to call it a day on the Chiro. I've reduced their flight to limited flight (land by the end of your turn or start falling) and - based on some feedback from elsewhere - changed hunter's cry from a racially learned spell to a racial ability (I still like how the spell turned out, though', so I'll leave it here).

Thanks to everyone who has already chimed in. Your input was helpful.