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bugsysservant
2007-10-14, 11:20 PM
Follows the same basic rules as all the other quiz threads out there. And Tolkien's world is already more than big enough to avoid obscure references.

To start off, a pretty easy one:
Q: What is the name of Finwe's eldest son?

Eita
2007-10-14, 11:22 PM
Curse you! Compared to the books I'll need for this thread, 40K is cheap!

Arang
2007-10-15, 07:35 AM
That would be Feanor, right? Or Curufinwe, if you prefer.

Who was the first of the winged dragons?

Greebo
2007-10-15, 08:45 AM
Glaurung - father of all dragons. I had to look it up, but I *have* read the Silmarilion more than once, I'm just horrible with names.

What is the first recorded instance of incest in the Tolkien realms?

jamroar
2007-10-15, 10:25 AM
That would be Feanor, right? Or Curufinwe, if you prefer.

Who was the first of the winged dragons?

Ancalagon.

What was the name of the other starmetal sword forged by Eol, besides Turin's black sword?

MostlyHarmless
2007-10-15, 10:43 AM
What is the first recorded instance of incest in the Tolkien realms?

Would that be Turin unwittingly marrying his sister Nienor?

My question is: Where was Gollum born?

And Ancalagon is the correct answer. Glaurung could not fly.


What was the name of the other starmetal sword forged by Eol, besides Turin's black sword?
And is this not getting a little obscure? I had to look it up, so I'll leave it for somebody else.

Setra
2007-10-15, 01:01 PM
This Thread
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My head

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To explain, I entered thinking I might understand SOMETHING.. it's way over my head

Arang
2007-10-15, 01:45 PM
Anguirel. This one was quite over and beyond normal level, and over and beyond memorization-OCD-and-Tolkien-fanatic level as well.

I'm going to steal someone's excellent question: where was Gollum born?

Greebo
2007-10-15, 01:56 PM
Anguirel. This one was quite over and beyond normal level, and over and beyond memorization-OCD-and-Tolkien-fanatic level as well.

I'm going to steal someone's excellent question: where was Gollum born?
Presumably in a small, pre-shire community somewhere south of but not too far from the Gladden Fields, as Isuldur was ambushed when riding through there, wasn't he?

Leaving it open if I'm mistaken.

Arang
2007-10-15, 02:02 PM
Correct. By Gladden Fields north of Lothlorien, by Anduin.

Conrad Poohs
2007-10-15, 09:53 PM
This Thread
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My head

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I hear ya :smalleek:

factotum
2007-10-16, 02:40 AM
Since this has apparently been left open, I'll post a question: what was the original name of Anfauglith (before Morgoth turned it into a lifeless desert)?

Sampi
2007-10-16, 02:47 AM
Since this has apparently been left open, I'll post a question: what was the original name of Anfauglith (before Morgoth turned it into a lifeless desert)?

The plain of Ard-Galen.


The Going For Less Obscure Question:
Where is the dwelling of Manwë and Varda?

Vella_Malachite
2007-10-16, 04:05 AM
I believe Manwe (can't find the symbols, sorry) and Varda dwelt on the "pinnacle of Taniquetil", the highest mountain in the world overlooking the sea.

My question: What gift did Illuvatar give the Atani?

Sampi
2007-10-16, 04:34 AM
My question: What gift did Illuvatar give the Atani?

Not quite certain what you mean, but would the answer be: the gift of mortality, of being able to leave arda, something which even the valar cannot do?

Question:

Which of the characters seen in The Lord Of The Rings have visited the immortal lands? (Before the end of the books).

Arang
2007-10-16, 08:01 AM
Saruman, Radagast, Gandalf, Galadriel. The two blue wizards, though they don't really appear. I think that's everyone.

What armies were the five armies at the Battle of Five Armies?

Greebo
2007-10-16, 08:30 AM
Saruman, Radagast, Gandalf, Galadriel. The two blue wizards, though they don't really appear. I think that's everyone.

What armies were the five armies at the Battle of Five Armies?

Elves from Mirkwood, Men from Dale, Dwarves of Dain's clans, for the free peoples, and the Wargs and the Orcs for the evil armies.

Bjorn and the Eagles also assisted but were not counted as armies.

What happened to the Silmarils?

(Softball question)

factotum
2007-10-16, 08:35 AM
One became the Evening Star, bound to Earendil's brow; one was thrown into the sea; and another one thrown into a fiery chasm. Thus, one in the sky, one in the sea, and one in the bosom of the Earth.

Really easy one: how many Rings of Power did the Elves have?

Rogue 7
2007-10-16, 08:53 AM
"Three were given to the elves, immortal, wisest and fairest of all beings".

Give the names of three of the Fief Lords sent to Minas Tirith.

Runolfr
2007-10-16, 09:00 AM
Saruman, Radagast, Gandalf, Galadriel. The two blue wizards, though they don't really appear. I think that's everyone.

Not quite.

The Elf Lord Glorfindel, who lived in Rivendell, had also come from the Undying Lands. He's the one who met Aragorn and the hobbits as they rode from the shire, because he was one of the few elves in Middle-Earth capable of standing against the Nazgul on his own, if necessary.

Where was Elrond born?

jamroar
2007-10-16, 10:28 AM
Not quite.

The Elf Lord Glorfindel, who lived in Rivendell, had also come from the Undying Lands. He's the one who met Aragorn and the hobbits as they rode from the shire, because he was one of the few elves in Middle-Earth capable of standing against the Nazgul on his own, if necessary.

Where was Elrond born?

Arvenien, the elf havens at the mouth of the river Sirion.

Whatever became of his brother?

Arang
2007-10-16, 10:41 AM
Elros chose mortality and became the first king of Numenor.

Speaking of Numenor, can you think of another name for it?

WalkingTarget
2007-10-16, 11:34 AM
Elros chose mortality and became the first king of Numenor.

Speaking of Numenor, can you think of another name for it?

After the fall, it was known as Atalantë, "the Downfallen".

The elves also called it Andor, which I think was something like "land of the gift" as it was a gift from the Valar to the men who aided the elves in the War of Wrath.

What was Tuor's final fate?

MostlyHarmless
2007-10-16, 12:55 PM
Correct. By Gladden Fields north of Lothlorien, by Anduin.

Stoor to be precise.

Tuor sailed to the West to be with the Valar.

Here's my Q: There were originally 7 palantiri. After the fall of Numenor, where were they placed? (this goes from easy to hard, bonus points for getting all 7).

This one is still open as far as I can see too:
Give the names of three of the Fief Lords sent to Minas Tirith.

WalkingTarget
2007-10-16, 01:07 PM
Hmm...

Osgiliath, Minas Ithil, Minas Anor, Orthanc, Amon Sul, the tower to the west of the Shire whose name escapes me...

I dunno, Fornost?

As for the fief lords, there was Prince Imrahil of Dol Amroth but the others escape me.

-edit- No not Fornost, there was that city at Lake Evendim... Anuminas or something.

bugsysservant
2007-10-16, 01:11 PM
Imrahil of Dol Amroth
Hurluin the Fair from Pinnath Gelin
and of course, Forlong the Fat of Lossarnach

Where was ringmail first created?

Rogue 7
2007-10-16, 04:38 PM
Stoor to be precise.

Tuor sailed to the West to be with the Valar.

Here's my Q: There were originally 7 palantiri. After the fall of Numenor, where were they placed? (this goes from easy to hard, bonus points for getting all 7).

This one is still open as far as I can see too:
Give the names of three of the Fief Lords sent to Minas Tirith.
Lesseee...
Minas Ithil
Minas Tirith (was called something else, I think)
Amon Sul (weathertop)
Osgilliath
Orthanc,
and...Capital of Arnor. Fornost? Don't have any tolkein with me.
Crud, that's 6. Were there 2 in Osgilliath?
Question: What was the name of the Ent Merry and Pippen stayed with during the Entmoot? (Hint: It wasn't treebeard)

TheElfLord
2007-10-16, 04:46 PM
Elves from Mirkwood, Men from Dale, Dwarves of Dain's clans, for the free peoples, and the Wargs and the Orcs for the evil armies.

Bjorn and the Eagles also assisted but were not counted as armies.

What happened to the Silmarils?

(Softball question)

Actually the Wargs and Goblins are counted as one army (the fourth one) and the Eagles are the fifth army.


And the ent is Quickbeam.

Open Question

MostlyHarmless
2007-10-16, 10:52 PM
Between WalkingTarget and Rogue you got them all.
Minas Anor (Tirith),
Minas Ithil (captured by Sauron),
Osgiliath (which had the master stone which was lost in the Anduin),
Orthanc,
Amon Sul (captured by Angmar but regained),
The Tower Hills (the hills to the west of the Shire, relocated to the Grey Havens I believe and used by the Eldar to view the West, taken by the Ringbearers to the West)
Fornost (this one and the Amon Sul stone were lost at sea I believe by the last king of the North)

Eldritch Knight
2007-10-16, 10:58 PM
What famous Essay explains a great deal of the symbolism behind the Lord of the Rings?




(Yes, it does work, as this essay was a concurrent work with LotR.)

TheElfLord
2007-10-17, 12:42 PM
On Fairy Stories?

In Rohan, who was the last king of the first line?

Arang
2007-10-18, 07:21 AM
I think Helm Hammerhand. He was the last of his line (being followed by his nephew), but I'm not sure if he was of the first.

If I'm right, who are the two oldest beings in Middle-Earth at the time of the War of the Ring?

Greebo
2007-10-18, 07:48 AM
I think Helm Hammerhand. He was the last of his line (being followed by his nephew), but I'm not sure if he was of the first.

If I'm right, who are the two oldest beings in Middle-Earth at the time of the War of the Ring?
Sauron and Tom Bombadil.

Open question.

jamroar
2007-10-18, 09:22 AM
If I'm right, who are the two oldest beings in Middle-Earth at the time of the War of the Ring?

Treebeard and Tom Bombadil(but why? fourth wall?) both make that claim. The maia characters like Sauron, Gandalf, Radagast and Saruman are older, but not in their current incarnations.

Which was the first of the races to be created on Arda?

Greebo
2007-10-18, 09:35 AM
Treebeard and Tom Bombadil(but why? fourth wall?) both make that claim. The maia characters like Sauron, Gandalf, Radagast and Saruman are older, but not in their current incarnations.

Which was the first of the races to be created on Arda?
Sauron in his current incarnation is younger, yes, but Sauron entered Arda before the changing of the world, and before the rise of the first born, so he is older than Treebeard.

The Istari entered after the changing of the world, however, so I was counting them as being third age born (tho technically they are, of course, ageless).

Oh, and it was, I believe, the Dwarves. They were created without the consent of Ea, but Ea was pleased and gave them freedom of will, but sent them back to sleep until after the first and second born had arrived.

TheElfLord
2007-10-18, 01:04 PM
Lots of possible choices. Bombadil, Sauron are up there. The Balrog in Moria predates the creation of the world was well. The wizards are maia also. We don't know exactly when she was born, so Galandrial could be older than Treebeard.

So thats ten possibilites.

WalkingTarget
2007-10-18, 01:18 PM
Lots of possible choices. Bombadil, Sauron are up there. The Balrog in Moria predates the creation of the world was well. The wizards are maia also. We don't know exactly when she was born, so Galandrial could be older than Treebeard.

So thats ten possibilites.

If we're going to stick to just the eldar and edain (and hobbits and the khazad), probably Galadriel and Cirdan.

However, Bombadil and Treebeard are both noted as being eldest. Some of the other ents probably qualify too (there were two other ent "elders" mentioned, but I can't think of their names).

If you're going to count valar/maiar it gets more complicated (what about poor Goldberry? people always forget her).

Arang
2007-10-18, 01:40 PM
My intended answers were Treebeard and Galadriel, but I obviously forgot about a lot of beings.

Greebo
2007-10-18, 01:41 PM
Snagging the open question:

Who took umbrage at the pronunciation of their name?

WalkingTarget
2007-10-18, 01:51 PM
Snagging the open question:

Who took umbrage at the pronunciation of their name?

Mr. Proudfoot? (but that would be umbrage at the name's plural form).

If that's what you're looking for, open question.

Greebo
2007-10-18, 01:58 PM
Mr. Proudfoot? (but that would be umbrage at the name's plural form).

If that's what you're looking for, open question.
Picky picky... ;)

Arcane_Secrets
2007-10-18, 03:30 PM
Who was Celebrimbor's father?

WalkingTarget
2007-10-18, 03:49 PM
Who was Celebrimbor's father?

Damn, got me, pretty sure it starts with a C. Celebrimbor was Fëanor's grandson, I remember that much.

Corvus
2007-10-19, 05:16 AM
Celebrimbor's father was Curufin, son of Feanor.

Who devised the first written language?

bugsysservant
2007-10-19, 09:39 AM
Who devised the first written language?

Rumil of Tirion the Loremaster.

And I know I already asked it, but I don't think it was answered, and I can't think of another question, so: where was ringmail first created?

MostlyHarmless
2007-10-19, 04:00 PM
I have no clue. Was it Moria?

bugsysservant
2007-10-19, 06:02 PM
Screw it. It was Belegost. Open question.

factotum
2007-10-20, 02:28 AM
What was the alternate name for Ossiriand?

factotum
2007-10-21, 11:58 AM
Wow, didn't expect that one to be such a puzzler--or has everyone lost interest in the thread? Ossiriand was also known as the Land of the Seven Rivers.

Open question.

jamroar
2007-10-21, 12:19 PM
Open question.

What was the proper name by which the elves call Mount Doom?

bugsysservant
2007-10-21, 12:28 PM
What was the proper name by which the elves call Mount Doom?

Orodruin?

If so, who wielded Ringil?

jamroar
2007-10-21, 02:26 PM
Orodruin?

If so, who wielded Ringil?
Right.

This guy.
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f310/jamroar/fingolfin.png

Open question.

Shadowdweller
2007-10-22, 05:03 AM
Orodruin?

If so, who wielded Ringil?
Fingolfin.

Easy one: Why in particular was he defeated by Morgoth?

Arang
2007-10-22, 07:36 AM
Because Morgoth was a god and did not tire.

If it's right, open question.

jamroar
2007-10-22, 08:52 AM
Fingolfin.

Easy one: Why in particular was he defeated by Morgoth?

Because he tripped and fell on a crater made by the blows of Morgoth's hammer, allowing Morgoth to squish him underfoot.

The name of Morgoth's mighty hammer appears elsewhere in LOTR. Where?

TheElfLord
2007-10-22, 09:16 AM
Grom, the Hammer of the Underworld, is also the name chosen for the ram that breaks Minas Tirith's gates.


What was the last thing Thingol looked upon as he died?

valadil
2007-10-22, 09:30 AM
Grom, the Hammer of the Underworld, is also the name chosen for the ram that breaks Minas Tirith's gates.


I'm fairly certain it wasn't Grom, but Grond.

TheElfLord
2007-10-22, 10:44 AM
Wow, I typed too fast, yes you are correct and the question is yours.

valadil
2007-10-22, 11:22 AM
Been a while since I read the Silmarillion, so this is probably an easy one. Who slew Glaurung? Bonus points if you answer in the form of a Clue question (ie Colonel Mustard in the conservatory with the revolver).

Lord of the Helms
2007-10-22, 11:51 AM
Off the top of my head:

Thingol: I THINK it was the Silmaril necklace whose name I've forgotten.

Glaurung: Dunno what you mean with clue question, but it was Turin Turambar (Turumbar?).

When did Tolkien ever mention vampires in his works? Bonus points if you can quote the passage :smallwink:

Saithis Bladewing
2007-10-22, 11:53 AM
Well, I can't remember for the life of me what Thingol looked at last, I'm gonna guess Nauglamir, the necklace he had the dwarves fashion for him...can't be asked to look it up.


Off the top of my head:

Thingol: I THINK it was the Silmaril necklace whose name I've forgotten.

Glaurung: Dunno what you mean with clue question, but it was Turin Turambar (Turumbar?).

When did Tolkien ever mention vampires in his works? Bonus points if you can quote the passage :smallwink:

Like this:

Was it Turin Turambar , in the ravine of Cabed-en-Aras, with Gurthang?

Lord of the Helms
2007-10-22, 01:28 PM
Well, I can't remember for the life of me what Thingol looked at last, I'm gonna guess Nauglamir, the necklace he had the dwarves fashion for him...can't be asked to look it up.



Like this:

Was it Turin Turambar , in the ravine of Cabed-en-Aras, with Gurthang?

Ah, thanks x 2 =)

Now, my question? :smallwink:

Greebo
2007-10-22, 02:03 PM
Ah, thanks x 2 =)

Now, my question? :smallwink:

In the Silmarilion, when Sauron assumed the form of a Vampire, and I do believe it was against Beren and Luthien that he went forth?

jamroar
2007-10-22, 02:11 PM
Off the top of my head:

Thingol: I THINK it was the Silmaril necklace whose name I've forgotten.

Glaurung: Dunno what you mean with clue question, but it was Turin Turambar (Turumbar?).

When did Tolkien ever mention vampires in his works? Bonus points if you can quote the passage :smallwink:


Luthien went Trick-or-treating for Silmarils at Angband disguised in the hide of one, after the original vampiress owner had been slain by Huan.

Where was the hill of Erech located?

Lord of the Helms
2007-10-22, 03:50 PM
In the Silmarilion, when Sauron assumed the form of a Vampire, and I do believe it was against Beren and Luthien that he went forth?

Luthien and Huan looking to free Beren, actually, and the vampire was the form he took flight (pun pun PUN!) in.

Ossian
2007-10-22, 04:00 PM
If I recall correctly, the only vampire ever mentioned was Thuringwethil. A fallen spirit in service of Morgoth. She was not the only one of her kind, but she was most definitely a chief of some sort, and a master spy.
She had a power mantle/cape that granted invisibility and Beren and Luthien , after seizing it from thuringwethil, used it to sneak their way into Angband (for some reason I seem to remember that losing the cape also caused thuringw.'s death).

What Sauron turned into (since he still had the power to change shape at the time) was a huge and oh-sooo-dire wolf. Unfortunately Huan was a golden retriever the size of a sabertooth tiger, and pinned him down with his wolvish throat firmly in his fangs. It beats me why Beren and Luthien were so generous and/or dumb as to let him go, believing he could reddem or something.

Os.

factotum
2007-10-22, 04:56 PM
I believe in some of the stuff that appears in the "History of Middle-Earth" stuff by Christopher Tolkien, Sauron *does* appear as a vampire--however, since this is material his father wrote which he clearly decided to change in the published work, I wouldn't call it exactly canonical.

Not sure what you mean by where the Hill of Erech is, jamroar--it's obviously some distance south of the southern exit of the Paths of the Damned, which places it somewhere in northern Gondor, but beyond that I wouldn't like to say.

Ossian
2007-10-22, 05:06 PM
At the feet of the White Mountains / Ered Nimarais, next to the spring of river Morthond (what is that in English, dark stump?), where the stone of Isildur was located. Opon that black stone, brought from Numenore, Isildur had the King of the Mountain Men swear allegiance to him. When later on Sauron's power grew again, the king of the mountain broke the oath, and was by Isildur cursed.

O

Lord of the Helms
2007-10-22, 10:12 PM
What Sauron turned into (since he still had the power to change shape at the time) was a huge and oh-sooo-dire wolf. Unfortunately Huan was a golden retriever the size of a sabertooth tiger, and pinned him down with his wolvish throat firmly in his fangs. It beats me why Beren and Luthien were so generous and/or dumb as to let him go, believing he could reddem or something.

Os.

I believe they had a deal, plus they couldn't actually kill him anyways.

Also, Sauron shapeshifted around when caught in Huan's jaws. When finally released, he turned himself into a vampire, flew away, and went on to defile lands nearby.

Vella_Malachite
2007-10-28, 01:48 AM
If this is an open question, I yoink it.

Name Elrond's parents.

dehro
2007-10-28, 09:58 AM
If this is an open question, I yoink it.

Name Elrond's parents.

Earendil and Elwing...

Who is Tom Bombadil married to?

WalkingTarget
2007-10-28, 10:26 AM
Goldberry, if anyone.

Open question.

XiaoTie
2007-10-28, 10:29 AM
Name Túrin's sisters.

TheElfLord
2007-10-28, 12:14 PM
Name Túrin's sisters.


Lalaith and Nienor

What are the colors of the House of Fingolfin?

jamroar
2007-10-28, 02:36 PM
Lalaith and Nienor

What are the colors of the House of Fingolfin?

Silver and blue.

What prophecy was Turgon given by Ulmo, and what was he instructed to do?

TheElfLord
2007-10-28, 04:06 PM
Silver and blue.

What prophecy was Turgon given by Ulmo, and what was he instructed to do?

Turgon was instructed to leave weapons and armor in Neverast (I think) to fit a person a certain size, who Ulmo fortold would come to deliver a warning that could save Gondolin.

Ulmo aslo warned Turgon agaisnt becoming attached to material possessions, and that only the Valar could save the Noldor.


Continuing the Turgon theme, what was the name of his sword?

bugsysservant
2007-10-28, 04:43 PM
Anglachel or Gurthang.

Completely ignoring that, how big (wingspan) was Thorondor?

dehro
2007-10-28, 05:27 PM
Anglachel or Gurthang.

Completely ignoring that, how big (wingspan) was Thorondor?

thirty fathoms, about 50something metres

what are the names (and genders) of the two trees of Valinor?

Ossian
2007-10-28, 05:34 PM
Continuing the Turgon theme, what was the name of his sword?

Anglachel/Gurthang was given to Beleg Cuthalion as a reward from Elu Thingol of Doriath, for his patrol service, for Beleg's sword had become dull by fighting too many orcs, and had lost her edge beyond repair. So he was asked to pick a weapon, ANY weapon of his liking, save Aranruth (King's Wrath), Elu's sword.

The sword of the king of Gondolin MIGHT have been the very Glamdring that Gandalf was to find 6000 and something years later....

O.

jamroar
2007-10-28, 05:37 PM
Continuing the Turgon theme, what was the name of his sword?

Glamdring. It was lost during the sack of Gondolin and somehow wound up as loot in a troll lair in the Third Age, where Gandalf claimed it for himself (as told in the Hobbit).



The sword of the king of Gondolin MIGHT have been the very Glamdring that Gandalf was to find 6000 and something years later....


Well, Elrond thought so, anyway. Though that was a remarkable coincidence...

"This sword, Gandalf, the runes name Glamdring, the Foe-Hammer that the King of Gondolin once wore...
No wait, below them in tiny runes is further written - Authentic 'Fall of Gondolin' commemorative replica, part of the First Age collection, limited edition piece no. 618 of 1000"

The inscription on the Gates of Durin at Moria as portrayed in LOTR hides a certain plot inconsistency. What is it?

TheElfLord
2007-10-28, 08:51 PM
Glamdring. It was lost during the sack of Gondolin and somehow wound up as loot in a troll lair in the Third Age, where Gandalf claimed it for himself (as told in the Hobbit).



Well, Elrond thought so, anyway. Though that was a remarkable coincidence...

"This sword, Gandalf, the runes name Glamdring, the Foe-Hammer that the King of Gondolin once wore...
No wait, below them in tiny runes is further written - Authentic 'Fall of Gondolin' commemorative replica, part of the First Age collection, limited edition piece no. 618 of 1000"

The inscription on the Gates of Durin at Moria as portrayed in LOTR hides a certain plot inconsistency. What is it?


The inscription was written during the time of Durin yet uses the name Moria, which is the Elven term for Khazad-Dum after the Balrog awoke and the Dwarves were driven from it.

Also Kudos to the people who got my sword question correct.


Q. The Barrow downs lie on the northernmost border of what fallen kingdom?

Ossian
2007-10-29, 08:48 AM
Arnor would be too broad and vague, so "Arthedain" is my bet.

O.

TheElfLord
2007-10-29, 11:48 AM
Arnor would be too broad and vague, so "Arthedain" is my bet.

O.

Very good guess, but sadly not right. Close though

factotum
2007-10-29, 04:14 PM
Well, if it's not Arthedain, that leaves only two possibilities, so I'm going to say Cardolan.

TheElfLord
2007-10-29, 09:04 PM
Yep, that's it

Ossian
2007-10-30, 06:04 PM
Ah, I fall into the trap. The northermost border of Cardolan, yep...
So, let's try this one: who's the oldest of all the eldars of Middle Earth by the End of the War of the Ring?

Ossian

dehro
2007-10-30, 08:21 PM
Ah, I fall into the trap. The northermost border of Cardolan, yep...
So, let's try this one: who's the oldest of all the eldars of Middle Earth by the End of the War of the Ring?

Ossian

that should be cirdan who woke up amongst the first of the eldar, at Cuivienen, under the stars

Ossian
2007-10-31, 09:30 AM
Correct! I just asked it because I wanted to hear what people thought on Cirdan having grown a beard! Awesome, for an elf...But my this is not the place for such a discussion.

O.

dehro
2007-10-31, 11:36 AM
Correct! I just asked it because I wanted to hear what people thought on Cirdan having grown a beard! Awesome, for an elf...But my this is not the place for such a discussion.

O.

at 15.000 I think he's old enough not to have to bother about what people think of him growing a beard :biggrin:
(I say so because I generally am frowned upon by my father whenever I decide to grow one myself, and this happens quite some times during the year :smallbiggrin: )

I have posted this question before, but am not sure if it got answered:
what are the names of the 2 Trees created by Yavannah?

WalkingTarget
2007-10-31, 11:47 AM
I have posted this question before, but am not sure if it got answered:
what are the names of the 2 Trees created by Yavannah?

Telperion and Laurelin (silver and gold respectively)

Who bears the last flower and fruit thereof?

TheElfLord
2007-10-31, 02:48 PM
Telperion and Laurelin (silver and gold respectively)

Who bears the last flower and fruit thereof?

Arien (Sun) and Tilion (Moon)

How many Palentir end up in a watery grave?

WalkingTarget
2007-10-31, 03:16 PM
Arien (Sun) and Tilion (Moon)

How many Palentir end up in a watery grave?

Amon Sul and Annuminas were both lost with the last king of Arnor when he shipwrecked. Osgiliath was lost when the Dome of the Stars was broken (as it was located in the middle of the bridge over Anduin).

The other's are accounted for (with Sauron, with Denethor, with Saruman, and at the Tower Hills near the Gray Havens).

So, 3 plus however many were in Numenor that weren't saved by Elendil and his sons.

Open question.

factotum
2007-10-31, 04:40 PM
What's the literal translation of Hithaeglir, the "proper" name for the Misty Mountains?

TheElfLord
2007-10-31, 08:25 PM
What's the literal translation of Hithaeglir, the "proper" name for the Misty Mountains?

Mist Peak Line

What alias did Aragorn use in his youthful travels?

Vella_Malachite
2007-11-02, 06:02 PM
Is it 'Strider', or am I thinking of later?

If so, where did Beren say the Silmaril was when he came, empty-handed, to Thingol?

factotum
2007-11-02, 06:37 PM
You're thinking of later. Aragorn went by the name of Thorongil when he was a member of the army of Gondor in his early years.

As to your question, I believe Beren said that the Silmaril was in his hand--he had been holding it when his hand was bitten off by a great wolf (Carcharoth?).

Who gave Gandalf his ring?

XiaoTie
2007-11-02, 06:43 PM
Cirdan.

Name the chief of the balrogs (the balrog, not Morgoth himself :smalltongue: )

TheElfLord
2007-11-02, 08:33 PM
Cirdan.

Name the chief of the balrogs (the balrog, not Morgoth himself :smalltongue: )

Gothmog

Who killed him? and how?

WalkingTarget
2007-11-03, 01:21 AM
Gothmog

Who killed him? and how?

Ecthelion killed Gothmog during the sack of Gondolin (and died in the doing).

What does Fëanor's name mean?

dehro
2007-11-03, 10:27 AM
Ecthelion killed Gothmog during the sack of Gondolin (and died in the doing).

What does Fëanor's name mean?

Spirit of fire..

how many times has Cirdan already come up in this topic?

no, seriously...open question

bugsysservant
2007-11-03, 10:33 AM
Ecthelion killed Gothmog during the sack of Gondolin (and died in the doing).

What does Fëanor's name mean?

Technically, Feanor was just what his mother called him. His name was Curufinwe, which means "skill of Finwe" IIRC. Open Question.

dehro
2007-11-04, 07:59 AM
Technically, Feanor was just what his mother called him. His name was Curufinwe, which means "skill of Finwe" IIRC. Open Question.

aw...a trick question...dumb... I should have noticed...:smallfrown:

bugsysservant
2007-11-04, 09:17 AM
aw...a trick question...dumb... I should have noticed...:smallfrown:

Well that may not have been the intent. I just felt compelled to highlight my matery of an obscure bit of Tolkien nerd lore. :smallbiggrin:

skyclad
2007-12-01, 03:53 PM
Necromany afoot...

Name the 3 human/elf couples.

WalkingTarget
2007-12-01, 04:01 PM
Beren/Luthien
Tuor/Idril
Aragorn/Arwen

skyclad
2007-12-01, 07:57 PM
Correct. Since you didnt post a question I will add another one to keep this going, please add questions after your answer ;)

Which Elf lord's house does Gildor belong to?

dehro
2007-12-02, 12:34 AM
Correct. Since you didnt post a question I will add another one to keep this going, please add questions after your answer ;)

Which Elf lord's house does Gildor belong to?

the house of Finrod

an easy one
what are the common names for the Kheled zaram and the Kibil nala, and what are they respectively?

Ossian
2007-12-02, 06:31 AM
What does Fëanor's name mean?

Don't you like "Burning Soul" instead? It's in a Blind Guardian song, and I found it most fitting.

O.

The_Snark
2007-12-02, 06:42 AM
what are the common names for the Kheled zaram and the Kibil nala, and what are they respectively?

Kheled-zaram is Mirrormere, the small lake in Dimrill Dale. Kibil-nala... was a mountain, and was not Cloudyhead, Silvertine, or Redhorn... unfortunately, I can't remember what it actually was.

factotum
2007-12-02, 08:38 AM
Er...wasn't Kibil-nala the Dwarvish name for the River Celebrant? Nothing to do with a mountain, AFAIK.

The_Snark
2007-12-02, 05:45 PM
So it was. That would explain why I couldn't think of any more mountain-names...

dehro
2007-12-03, 07:25 AM
indeed, the mirrormere and the celebrant..., as named in dwarvish by Galadriel talking to Gimli

open question

skyclad
2007-12-03, 11:08 AM
what's with you people not posting questions? :)

What did Maedhros' name mean and what was his haircolour? (related)

Total_Viking_Power
2007-12-03, 06:11 PM
You mean Maeglin, son of Eöl the Dark Elf? His name means Sharp Glance. His hair was raven black, like his mother's kin the Noldor.
Maedhros the Tall is the eldest son of Fëanor. He has the same haircolour, I guess.

Q: Who invented the game of golf and how?

factotum
2007-12-04, 04:07 AM
Bullroarer Took. During the Battle of Green Fields he smacked the goblin king Golfimbul's head clean off--it sailed a couple of hundred yards through the air and went down a rabbit hole, thus winning the battle and inventing golf at the same time!

Who built the Morannon?

skyclad
2007-12-04, 07:28 AM
Sauron.

Since Total_Viking_Power got it wrong and I really meant Maedhros the tall, eldest son of Fëanor etc I'll repost.

What did Maedhros' name mean and what was his haircolour? (related)

zeratul
2007-12-04, 10:07 AM
Name translation: shapely copper
Hair color: reddish-brown

quiz question - Who does Gandalf go to have a long talk with prior to going to Grey Havens?

factotum
2007-12-04, 11:07 AM
Sauron.


I just realised I should have been more specific: who built the Towers of the Teeth that form part of the Morannon?

WalkingTarget
2007-12-04, 11:14 AM
I just realised I should have been more specific: who built the Towers of the Teeth that form part of the Morannon?

The men of Gondor built them, if that's specific enough.

Also, Gandalf has a long talk with Bombadil.

Open question.

zeratul
2007-12-04, 06:45 PM
reposting this question

Who does Gandalf go to have a long talk with prior to going to Grey Havens?

skyclad
2007-12-04, 06:49 PM
Bombadill as said by WalkingTarget?

zeratul
2007-12-04, 06:51 PM
oh sorry, didn't see that part of his post, he's correct.

Open Question

Gorbash Kazdar
2007-12-04, 08:50 PM
Name the first Steward of Gondor to effectively rule that kingdom, and the last Steward before the crowning of Aragorn Elessar.

dehro
2007-12-04, 10:10 PM
Name the first Steward of Gondor to effectively rule that kingdom, and the last Steward before the crowning of Aragorn Elessar.
that would be Pelendur and denethor, unless you consider his death to automatically make his heir faramir the new steward...which is I think mentioned when faramir is still in healing..and which certainly is at the crowning..
so, yeah...faramir should be right.


who is the hobbit that :smalltongue: did not leave before they became famous:smalltongue: but was part of the initial conspiracy of the hobbits?

skyclad
2007-12-05, 02:51 AM
'fatty' bolger?

skyclad
2007-12-06, 07:36 AM
I'm sure I understood your question correctly but I'll pretend I was right and make a new question..

In what way are the 3 elven rings and the fate of the 3 Silmarills connected?

factotum
2007-12-06, 09:29 AM
My guess would be Fire, Air and Water...the three Elven rings each influenced one of those elements, and the three Silmarils ended up in one of three; one at the bottom of the ocean, one in fiery lava, and one in the airs of the sky.

Angband was actually Morgoth's SECOND major fortress--what was the name of the first?

WalkingTarget
2007-12-06, 09:53 AM
Utumno (alternatively Udun).

Open question.

skyclad
2007-12-06, 02:31 PM
At the time of LotR, there are only 3 elves still in middle earth who once dwelled in valinor (that we know of). Who are they?

Nice answer factoum I thought it was kind of tricky. You are correct. Another way they are related is that it was Fëanors grandson who made the rings.

WalkingTarget
2007-12-06, 04:52 PM
At the time of LotR, there are only 3 elves still in middle earth who once dwelled in valinor (that we know of). Who are they?

Galadriel definitely.

Presumably Glorfindel.

There was a Galdor in the First Age and another was at the Council of Elrond, I think it's unlikely that it's the same one.

Cirdan specifically didn't make the journey to Aman until his work was done, despite being one of the original Elves from the awakening (he's OLD).

Later versions of the history of Celeborn put him in the undying lands, contradicting earlier ones in which he was just one of the Sindar.

You probably mean Galadriel, Glorfindel, and Celeborn based on that.

If this is sufficient, open question (I'm bad at thinking them up, sorry).

skyclad
2007-12-06, 08:04 PM
Galadriel, check. Glorfindel, check. I never heard that Celeborn was anything but a sindar so if he was in valinor that makes 4 of the valinor elves... Still missing one though ;)

CelestialStick
2007-12-08, 02:16 PM
Galadriel, check. Glorfindel, check. I never heard that Celeborn was anything but a sindar so if he was in valinor that makes 4 of the valinor elves... Still missing one though ;)

The Complete Guide to Middle-Earth gives Celeborn as a Sindarian elf, and I have never seen anything to contradict it.

As for the third elf who returned to Middle Earth from Aman, I'd say you mean Gildor Inglorion, who meets Frodo and company along the way from Hobbiton to Buckland, and says that he's an Exile of the House of Finrod.

What happened to the original gnomes of Middle Earth?

factotum
2007-12-08, 05:26 PM
I thought Tolkien had dropped the idea of having gnomes in the stories long before LOTR ever saw print...leastways, I recall something like that from "The Shaping of Middle-earth". Unless you're talking about the petty-dwarves (Noegyth Nibin)?

CelestialStick
2007-12-08, 05:29 PM
I thought Tolkien had dropped the idea of having gnomes in the stories long before LOTR ever saw print...leastways, I recall something like that from "The Shaping of Middle-earth". Unless you're talking about the petty-dwarves (Noegyth Nibin)?

Nah, I don't mean the petty dwarves. I'll wait though and see if someone else comes up with it. :)

skyclad
2007-12-08, 08:06 PM
I didn't mean Gildor. I though he was just born in beleriand during the first age after the noldor left valinor.

As for what became of the gnomes they got renamed "noldor" ;)

But there is still one elf we know was in valinor during the age of the trees.

TheElfLord
2007-12-08, 08:46 PM
Presumably there are more than 4 elves remaining from that time, since due to the not dying thing, any elf who survives the First Age has a very good chance of still being around at the time of the Lord of the Rings.

Gildor was also going to be my guess.

Also, what are people referncing to place Glorfindel as one of the three?

CelestialStick
2007-12-09, 02:22 AM
Presumably there are more than 4 elves remaining from that time, since due to the not dying thing, any elf who survives the First Age has a very good chance of still being around at the time of the Lord of the Rings.

Gildor was also going to be my guess.

Also, what are people referncing to place Glorfindel as one of the three?

Yes, there are probably more elves who went to Aman and returned than three or four, but I presume skyclad means named elves.

The subject of Glorfindel is fascinating. It appears that originally Tolkien had him die after the battle for Gondolin while slaying the balrog that in turn killed him. Later, in earlier drafts of Lord of the Rings, Tolkien though has Glorfindel at the Council of Elrond tell of his ancestry in Gondolin. Tolkien at that stage had Glorfindel as one of the Nine Walkers (along with "Trotter" and Fatty!), and when Tolkien replaced Glorfindel with Legolas as the representative of the elves among the Nine Walkers, Tolkien apparently removed the part where Glorfindel tells of his ancestry in Gondlin.

In later writings Christoper Tolkien and J.R.R. talk about Glorfindel. One story that they tell is that the Valar returned Glorfindel to flesh and sent him back to Middle Earth to oppose Sauron, as a sort of precursor to the Istari or perhaps even in the company of the two "Blue Wizards." It appears that Tolkien, who was disorganized and often worked from a faulty memory, forgot by the time he started working on Lord of the Rings that he'd killed Glorfindel after the escape from the fall of Gondolin. By the time he realized his mistake, he'd gotten too attached to having the same Glorfindel rescue Frodo on the way to Rivendell, and so looked for a way to reconcile the two stories rather than change the character at Rivendell in the Third Age.

You can read more at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glorfindel.

Well if there are three elves from the time of the Two Trees still in Middle Earth in the Third Age, and two are Galadriel and Glorfinel, but the third is not Gildor (or Gildor makes four) then I'm stumped.

Skyclad is correct, by the way, that Tolkien renamed his gnomes "Noldor." :)

dehro
2007-12-09, 01:24 PM
count me amongst the stumped...I also am at a loss about gnomes=noldor...where does that come from?
I knew the glorfindel thing though :smalltongue: in the end glorfindel was rejected as one of the nine because he would have killed the plot..too powerfull, he wolud have overshadowed aragorn and could have taken it up against the ringwraiths better than the other 8 all together

CelestialStick
2007-12-09, 02:22 PM
count me amongst the stumped...I also am at a loss about gnomes=noldor...where does that come from?
I knew the glorfindel thing though :smalltongue: in the end glorfindel was rejected as one of the nine because he would have killed the plot..too powerfull, he wolud have overshadowed aragorn and could have taken it up against the ringwraiths better than the other 8 all together

Yes, from what I've read Glorfindel would have overshadowed everyone except for Gandalf. So for dramatic purposes maybe he had to go. Although it could have been fun to see him battling again with the Witch-King while the lesser Nazgul moved in on the rest of the company. For practical purposes, including Glorfindel instead of Legolas would have increased the probability of actually getting Frodo with the ring safely to Mordor.

It's been years since I read the bit about Tolkien originally calling the Noldor gnomes, but I probably first got it from The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, letter 17 on page 23 and footnote 2 for letter 17 on page 435. You can read more about it at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noldor#Other_versions_of_the_legendarium. It's interesting to read that in the First Age people pronounced the "N" in "Noldor" as a "G," but later as an "N," mirroring the silent "g" of "gnome."

Edit: My first DM, back in 1978, used to pronounce the silent "g" at the start of "gnoll." Whenever we ran into gnolls he would say, "G-nolls are g-nice!" :smallbiggrin:

TheElfLord
2007-12-09, 02:37 PM
Gnome is also used in the Book of Lost Tales II, which is where I first read it.

Erestor is the only other named elf who many be a Noldor in the LotR who hasn't been mentioned in the thread already that I can think of. So count me among the stumped/sceptical.

Sir_Norbert
2007-12-09, 02:42 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noldor#Other_versions_of_the_legendarium[/URL]. It's interesting to read that in the First Age people pronounced the "N" in "Noldor" as a "G," but later as an "N," mirroring the silent "g" of "gnome."
That's not quite correct. The word was originally Ñoldor, where the Ñ represents the sound NG as in "sing". In English, the NG sound can only occur in the middle or at the end of words, not at the beginning, so this can be confusing, but try saying "ang-oldor" and then changing it to "a-ngoldor".

Tolkien was far too knowledgeable about linguistics to do anything as silly as writing N when it is pronounced G!

skyclad
2007-12-09, 04:22 PM
A clue then. He is not mentioned in LotR but in the Silmarillion and possibly some other books. ;)

CelestialStick
2007-12-09, 07:02 PM
That's not quite correct. The word was originally Ñoldor, where the Ñ represents the sound NG as in "sing". In English, the NG sound can only occur in the middle or at the end of words, not at the beginning, so this can be confusing, but try saying "ang-oldor" and then changing it to "a-ngoldor".

Tolkien was far too knowledgeable about linguistics to do anything as silly as writing N when it is pronounced G!

You could have made your point without the gratuitous final sentence.


Gnome is also used in the Book of Lost Tales II, which is where I first read it.

Erestor is the only other named elf who many be a Noldor in the LotR who hasn't been mentioned in the thread already that I can think of. So count me among the stumped/sceptical.


A clue then. He is not mentioned in LotR but in the Silmarillion and possibly some other books. ;)

Well if he's not mentioned in Lord of the Rings that rules out Erestor.

Edit: Ok, I'm thinking now that you mean Feanor's second son, Maglor, who threw the last Silmaril into the sea and then wandered off. There's apparently no record of his death, or of his return to Valinor, so one might deduce that he reamined in Middle Earth in the Third Age (and for that matter after the start of the Fourth Age), although there's no record of him remaining in Middle Earth in the Third Age either. Is Maglor who you mean, skyclad?

TheElfLord
2007-12-09, 07:49 PM
Odd, a very intellegent edit mysterious appeared in the Middle of one of my posts.

I didn't think it was Erestor, because the only thing known about him is that he was a high rnaking individual in Elrond's House. I just threw the name out because he was the only named elf in LotR who could have been a Noldor and wasn't mentioned yet.

I think Malagor is a good guess, though we don't know for sure that he is still in Middle Earth at during the LotR, and the sky was pretty clear that we knew this elf was there.

CelestialStick
2007-12-09, 08:14 PM
Odd, a very intellegent edit mysterious appeared in the Middle of one of my posts.

I didn't think it was Erestor, because the only thing known about him is that he was a high rnaking individual in Elrond's House. I just threw the name out because he was the only named elf in LotR who could have been a Noldor and wasn't mentioned yet.

I think Malagor is a good guess, though we don't know for sure that he is still in Middle Earth at during the LotR, and the sky was pretty clear that we knew this elf was there.

Hehe! Thanks for the compliment. I corrected the post. :smallamused:

Well if it's not Maglor, I'm stumped again. Maybe skyclad's just pulling our legs and there's nobody. :smallbiggrin:

skyclad
2007-12-09, 08:44 PM
No you're right, I meant Maglor ;) Still walking the shores singing emo songs about pain I guess :D

ope question.

CelestialStick
2007-12-09, 08:57 PM
No you're right, I meant Maglor ;) Still walking the shores singing emo songs about pain I guess :D

ope question.

Woot! I had to go through the Nodorin elves one by one in the family tree in back of the Sillmarillion to figure out which one was still alive.

I find it's hard to come up with good questions; it seems like they're either too easy or way too obscure. I figure I should ask only questions I can answer without looking them up, which seems to limit me to obvious ones.

Here's an obvious one: what is the original name of the first Dark Lord and what does it mean? :)

skyclad
2007-12-09, 09:13 PM
You're right about coming up with questions CelestialStick. Though I think this one and the one about the elven rings/silmarills was pretty clever :D requires a little thought.

CelestialStick
2007-12-09, 09:24 PM
You're right about coming up with questions CelestialStick. Though I think this one and the one about the elven rings/silmarills was pretty clever :D requires a little thought.

Yes, they were. There's no way I'd have gotten either of them without doing research, and I'm not sure I'd have ever gotten the air-earth-water connection between the Silmarils and the three elven rings. The family connection though I knew immediately: Feanor made the Silmarils and his grandson Celebrimbor made the three rings.

Speaking of Celebrimbor, apparently it's at least possible that he was born in Valinor, as mentioned at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebrimbor. I'd never thought of him as having come back across the sea, but rather as having been born in Middle Earth, although since Sauron tortured him to death after the sacking of Eregion, even if born in Valinor Celebrimbor couldn't have been the answer to your "lived in Valinor and living in Middle Earth during the Third Age" question.

Do you know the answer to my Dark Lord question? I seems so easy to me that maybe you're just waiting to let someone else answer it. :)

TheElfLord
2007-12-09, 10:19 PM
Melkor is his original name which means, He who Arises in Might.

Which battle of the War of the Great Jewels does not have an official name?

bugsysservant
2007-12-09, 10:32 PM
What battle of the War of the Great Jewels does not have an official name?

God, would that be the one where Melkor sent out a horde of orcs to attack Fingolfin, because he thought he was the weak link in the Noldor chain, but Fingolfin kicked the orcs' collective ass so badly nobody cared to give it a name? The one after the battle under stars maybe (or maybe the third)? Or did I make that up?

If I got that right, and it would be a long shot, (damn, I suck at making questions. You have no idea how tempted I am to throw out "do balrogs have wings?") name the last Valar to descend. (I'm pretty sure there was one who came last, but I don't have my Silmarillion handy)

CelestialStick
2007-12-10, 12:05 AM
Melkor is his original name which means, He who Arises in Might.

Which battle of the War of the Great Jewels does not have an official name?

Yup, mine was an easy question like I said, but at least it kept things rolling.

I confess I haven't a clue about the answer to yours. Even when I used to read The Silmarillion every summer I seriously doubt I could have told you the names of more than one or two battles, much less identify an unnamed battle! I wouldn't even know how to start researching it, sort of maybe reading the whole book now. Maybe one of the more knowledgeable posters will pull that rabbit out of his (or her) hat. :smallsmile:


God, would that be the one where Melkor sent out a horde of orcs to attack Fingolfin, because he thought he was the weak link in the Noldor chain, but Fingolfin kicked the orcs' collective ass so badly nobody cared to give it a name? The one after the battle under stars maybe (or maybe the third)? Or did I make that up?

If I got that right, and it would be a long shot, (damn, I suck at making questions. You have no idea how tempted I am to throw out "do balrogs have wings?") name the last Valar to descend. (I'm pretty sure there was one who came last, but I don't have my Silmarillion handy)

That one I actually know off the top of my head--Tulkas!--whose name in Yiddish means "butt." Oh, just kidding (though it's close to toches or tuches.) :smallbiggrin: I also seem to recall that someone called him Astaldo the Valiant. Ah, I double-checked and as "Astaldo" means "Valiant" they called him Tulkas Astaldo or Tulkas the Valiant.

Oops, or rats, that means I have to come up with another question. Ok, let me see...

...okay, after giving it some thought, I've come up with the following: what three characters does Tolkien draw in part from three Norse gods?

factotum
2007-12-10, 03:34 AM
I'd have to say that would be the three wizards Gandalf, Saruman and Radagast--it's the only group of three that has any sort of importance to the plot.

Where did the exiles who fled Numenor before its destruction land on Middle-earth?

Ossian
2007-12-10, 04:51 AM
Couild it be Lond Daer, south of Tharbad? (Enedwaith region, or something).

O.

CelestialStick
2007-12-10, 09:43 AM
I'd have to say that would be the three wizards Gandalf, Saruman and Radagast--it's the only group of three that has any sort of importance to the plot.

Where did the exiles who fled Numenor before its destruction land on Middle-earth?

Nope. Who said the three characters formed any sort of group (other than each having been in part drawn from a Norse god)?

As for where the exiles landed, Elendil landed in Lindon, and Isildur and Anarion landed at Belfalas.

By the way, TheElfLord hasn't returned yet to tell us whether Bugsysservant got his last question right.

Ossian
2007-12-10, 09:48 AM
...okay, after giving it some thought, I've come up with the following: what three characters does Tolkien draw in part from three Norse gods?


One could be Beren, after Tyr, the maimed God. (both lost a hand) and Gandalf looks way too much like Wodan/Odin. The 3rd beats me (perhaps literally).

O.

TheElfLord
2007-12-10, 10:07 AM
Nope, my question is still unanswered.

skyclad
2007-12-10, 10:16 AM
The first battle, fought by the sindar and their allies against morgoths orcs before the noldor came to beleriand. After that follows the battle under the stars, the glorious battle (or whatever its called), the battle of sudden flame and finally the battle of unnumbered tears.

CelestialStick
2007-12-10, 10:26 AM
One could be Beren, after Tyr, the maimed God. (both lost a hand) and Gandalf looks way too much like Wodan/Odin. The 3rd beats me (perhaps literally).

O.

I hadn't thought of Beren and Tyr, so that could be a fourth one.

I don't see much in the way of similarity between Odinn and Gandalf.

dehro
2007-12-10, 11:25 AM
uhm... sauron as loki? I'm referring to when he was instrumental through "counsels and wise words" in bringing the rings into being..
sneaky behaviour :P

CelestialStick
2007-12-10, 12:07 PM
uhm... sauron as loki? I'm referring to when he was instrumental through "counsels and wise words" in bringing the rings into being..
sneaky behaviour :P

Well you're sort of on the right track for one of the three, but Loki's not the only sneaky Norse god. If you just know only the Snorri Sturluson Prose Edda sanitized, Christianized version of the Norse gods, then you're probably not going to get even this one of the three.

TheElfLord
2007-12-10, 01:29 PM
I have to ask is this a documented question or a personal one? Does Tolkien somewhere say "I used these gods as a basis for these characters?"

Or did you read his work and say A B and C character seem a lot like X Y and Z god?

CelestialStick
2007-12-10, 02:02 PM
I have to ask is this a documented question or a personal one? Does Tolkien somewhere say "I used these gods as a basis for these characters?"

Or did you read his work and say A B and C character seem a lot like X Y and Z god?

One of the three I learned about years ago in The Mythology of Middle-Earth. The other two I learned in the course of studying Old Norse and the Norse pagan religious stories, and are both pretty obvious if you know the Norse material. I could just reveal it, if you like. Or I could give a hint. :smallsmile:

Total_Viking_Power
2007-12-11, 08:10 AM
There's a lot to be said for the Gadalf/Odin connection. They look quite alike, and I'm certain it's not a coincidence. Then there is Beren/Tyr. Very obvious.
You should mention yours Stick, since we probably don't agree. Thsi could drag on otherwise.

dehro
2007-12-11, 09:33 AM
There's a lot to be said for the Gadalf/Odin connection. They look quite alike, and I'm certain it's not a coincidence. Then there is Beren/Tyr. Very obvious.
You should mention yours Stick, since we probably don't agree. Thsi could drag on otherwise.

I agree... it's opinable at best, if Tolkien hasn't made a point of stating it directly...so..shoot away

Telonius
2007-12-11, 01:36 PM
Earendil strikes me as a likely candidate for ancient (if not Norse) basis.

"Eala Earendel, engla beohrtast
ofer middangeaard monnum sended" - Kynewulf

He has a bit in common with Baldr, if I'm not mistaken.

skyclad
2007-12-11, 01:45 PM
manwe as oden? Both are the leaders of their respective pantheon and both are friend of birds :)

CelestialStick
2007-12-11, 04:19 PM
Except in Snorri Sturulson's Prose Edda, Odinn was a faithless god who granted victory to the undeserving and killed those deserving of victory. Tolkien was well-versed in the Norse stories prior to Snorri's attempt to Chrsitianize them after the pagan era had ended in Iceland, and as the Mythology of Middle-Earth points out, the faithless, one-eyed Sauron draws directly from the faithless, one-eyed Odinn.

The story of how the dwarf Thorin got his nickname, Oakenshield, mirrors one of the earliest Norse stories in which the god Thor wield an oak club. In that early story Baldr wasn't the Christ-like beneficent god of Snorri's Prose Edda but rather a selfish, half-divine, illegitimate child of one of Odinn's many illicit affairs. When a maiden of his village spurns the arrogant Baldr for another man, Baldr kidnaps and rapes her. The warriors of the village make war on Baldr, and he calls on the Norse gods to come fight on his side. When the warriors of the village break Thor's oaken club, the Norse gods flee from the field, leaving the warriors victorious. This may be the oldest Norse story still in existence, and it paints a very different story than the later stories (even prior to Snorri). In the story the Norse gods appear more like the Finnish gods, as much weaker, much comparable to humans.

In the story of Thorin (taken from a Norse name "Thorinn" which literally means "The Thor") it works more or less in reverse: Thorin is on the good side and when the orcs destroy his shield he uses an oaken branch as a replacement shield. (That's why I say it mirrors rather than parallels the Norse story: it's similar but opposite.)

In Norse paganism Frey was also known as Ing or Ingve. In fact some Norse linguists argue that Frey Ingve simply means Lord Ingve. Frey was the male deity most associated with the elves. It's no coincidence that Tolkien made his High King of Elves (and King of the Vanyar) an elf named Ingwë. :smallsmile:

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I hadn't thought of the Beren-Tyr connection. Each of them lost his right hand to a wolf (and arguably in both cases the greatest wolf in the world) in the course of keeping faith with an oath, so I agree that Tyr in part inspired the character of Beren. Good call! :smallcool:

Keep in mind that Snorri's version of the Norse gods dates from 1221-1223, whereas the Althing in Iceland had outlawed the public worship of the Norse gods in the year 1000 (known as the kristnitaka) and a few years later even the private worship of the Norse gods. Snorri was a Christian, and went out of his way to associate Odinn with God, Baldr with Christ and Loki with Satan; Thor didn't fit in so Snorri made him seem as stupid as possible. If you know only (or mostly) the Snorri version of the Norse gods, I encourage you to read further as they're much more complex and fascinating, and because Tolkien was intimately familiar with them. I'm sure you already know that Norse paganism heavily influenced Tolkien; but it was the more complex version of the Norse gods relayed in many stories that survived from long before Snorri, and not just Snorri's sanitized, Christianized versions. I especially recommend Gods and Myths of Northern Europe by H.R. Ellis Davidson, Myths and Religions of the North by E.O.G. Turnville-Petre, and of course The Mythology of Middle-Earth by Ruth S. Noel. Happy reading! :smallsmile:

And now we return to our regularly-scheduled grading of student final exams. :smalltongue:

skyclad
2007-12-14, 06:42 AM
That's quite a read CelestialStick you know your stuff :)

So, open question? Here is one. What huge plothole would occur in the Silmarillion if Balrogs could fly?

WalkingTarget
2007-12-14, 09:14 AM
That's quite a read CelestialStick you know your stuff :)

So, open question? Here is one. What huge plothole would occur in the Silmarillion if Balrogs could fly?

Uh...

Glorfindel wouldn't have defeated the Balrog when they fell off a cliff?
Gondolin would have been easier to find as the encircling mountains wouldn't have been impassable?

skyclad
2007-12-14, 10:04 AM
Yep, Gondolin would have been found within an hour after Morgoth heard of it ;) If you though the question was strange know that there's a neverending debate over whether balrogs have wings or not :D

Open question

CelestialStick
2007-12-15, 01:49 AM
That's quite a read CelestialStick you know your stuff :)

So, open question? Here is one. What huge plothole would occur in the Silmarillion if Balrogs could fly?

Thanks, skyclad! When I first planned to get my M.A. in history I was going to get it in Medieval Scandinavia, and studied the Old Norse language as well as buying my own collection of about a dozen books about Medieval Scandinavian. (Later I switched and got my M.A. in American history based on theory that it has a bigger job market.) It's been so long now since I studied that material that I don't remember it nearly as well as I'd like, but those few things stand out because they sit at the confluence of my interest in Norse history and my interest in Middle Earth. "Middle Earth" itself, by the way, is an English-language translation of Midgard (or Mithgarthr as it was pronounced in Old Norse). It could also be translated as "Middle Enclosure" or "Middle Walled City," but I bet if Tolkien had used one of those his books wouldn't have sold nearly as well! :smallbiggrin:

"And so the elves slowly sailed out of Middle Walled City, never to return..." :smallwink:

Ok, as I see people already answered your last question I'll ask another one, less obscure than my last one. First though I just wanted to point out that just because Balrogs have wings doesn't mean they could fly--ostriches and turkeys have wings but don't do much flying--and that even if they could fly a bit that doesn't necessarily mean they could fly aerial reconnaissance flights at high-mountain altitudes. :smalltongue:

Ok, so here's another easy one: who bred trolls and from what? :smallsmile:

skyclad
2007-12-15, 09:00 AM
Morgoth from Ents :)

What are the names of the 2 other ents in Fangorn that were of the same "generation" or of the same power as Treebeard?

Vaire
2007-12-15, 10:01 AM
The other two ents are Finglas and Fladrif (in Elvish) or Leaflock and Skinbark to the hobbits.

Vaire
2007-12-15, 10:03 AM
Forgot to post a question.

Here goes,

Who built Brandy Hall?

WalkingTarget
2007-12-15, 12:49 PM
Gorhendad Oldbuck (who then changed his name to Brandybuck).

Name Farmer Maggot's three dogs as of his appearance in Fellowship.

CelestialStick
2007-12-15, 03:14 PM
Yeah, the troll question was easy. I find it hard to come up with questions that aren't either easy like that or totally obscure like my Norse gods question.


Gorhendad Oldbuck (who then changed his name to Brandybuck).

Name Farmer Maggot's three dogs as of his appearance in Fellowship.

The only one I can recall offhand is Fang. Hey Vaire and WalkingTarget, as you answering these questions off the top of your head, or looking them up? :smallsmile:

Vaire
2007-12-15, 04:15 PM
Well, I had to look up the elvish names for sure, and I could only remember one of the others. But seeing as how I waded through the rest of the ent section of the book to find the answer I figured I'd paid my dues. As for walking target, I'm pretty sure I know who he is, and very rarely does he ever look anything up. He's a little scary. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/smilies/smallstick/smallbiggrin.gif
:smallbiggrin:

CelestialStick
2007-12-15, 04:26 PM
Well, I had to look up the elvish names for sure, and I could only remember one of the others. But seeing as how I waded through the rest of the ent section of the book to find the answer I figured I'd paid my dues. As for walking target, I'm pretty sure I know who he is, and very rarely does he ever look anything up. He's a little scary. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/smilies/smallstick/smallbiggrin.gif
:smallbiggrin:

I've been trying to answer questions without looking up the answers. Obviously though I looked up the answers for the question that nobody seemed able to answer from memory--the one about the three elves who had been in Valinor who were still alive in Middle Earth in the Third Age. That one was tough to answer even with looking things up! :smallbiggrin: Usually though I'll only give an answer that I know from memory, like the one name I recalled of Farmer Maggot's dogs. Oh, was another one called Wolf maybe? Sometimes I'll look up an answer after someone else has given it to remind myself of the backstory or details, just for fun. If something fun appears, I might comment on it. :smallsmile:

For that matter when I come up with questions they're ones to which I know the answers from memory. Are other people doing, that, or are some people looking up things to ask? I kind of think it's more fun to both ask and answer from memory, but I recognize that the longer the thread runs, the harder it is for us to both ask and answer questions just from memory.

The url you put in your post just goes to a grin face gif. Was that deliberate?

I was going to ask an new question but I realized that nobody has fully answered the last one. I'm tempted to look it up just to see ... :smallbiggrin: Was it Wolf, Fang, and Fluffy? Wolf, Fang and Latte? Wolf, Fang, and Potter? :smallwink:

Vaire
2007-12-15, 04:30 PM
Farmer Maggots Three Dogs are Grip, Fang, and Wolf.

And I didn't have to look that one up.

How many kings were there in Gondor after Anarion?

CelestialStick
2007-12-15, 04:40 PM
Farmer Maggots Three Dogs are Grip, Fang, and Wolf.

And I didn't have to look that one up.

How many kings were there in Gondor after Anarion?

Yeah, Grip. That was my next guess, after Fluffy, Latté and Potter. Oh, and after Spot too. Um, and after Pikachu. I'm sure Farmer Maggot said, "Gripachu, I choose you!" You can see how that could confuse me. :smallbiggrin:

Um, kings in Gondor, eh? Um, what was Gondor again? :smallwink: Ok, seriously I have no idea, but the first number that comes to mind is 13. Then 17. There's no way I know this one without looking it up. :smallsmile: I mean if there were 13 kings of Gondor and Anarion was one of them, I'd have the right number to the wrong question. Wait, I seem to remember something about 12. Twelve stars and twelve crowns and one white tree? Hmm, assuming that I even have the phrase right and that it's 12 crowns, that would be total kings of Gondor before the Ruling Stewards. Subtracting Elendil and Anarion, that would make 10 after him. And you know what? I have no idea if that's even close to being right. :smalltongue:

skyclad
2007-12-15, 09:36 PM
I also have no idea who many kings ruled after Anarion.

I only ask and answer questions I know without looking in the books. Unless a question has been unanswered for a long time ;)

TheElfLord
2007-12-15, 11:02 PM
31 Kings

I looked it up.

To the Balrog/Gondolin thing, the Eagles guarded the mointian tops from all of Morgoths creatures. It is possible they would be able to discourage a Balrog. After all, Thorondor injured Morgoth himself.

Where does the true hope of the Noldor come from?

WalkingTarget
2007-12-16, 01:52 AM
As for walking target, I'm pretty sure I know who he is, and very rarely does he ever look anything up. He's a little scary.

*laughs ominously*

I try not to look stuff up for this thread (or any quiz thread) unless the question's gone unanswered for a long time. I look stuff up all the time for my entries in the other discussions since I like backing my points up with direct quotations and/or page numbers (and I do tend to pick up other details I can use here during those searches).

I ask questions I know the answer to, but I leave open questions often if I can't think of one right when I answer another.

As for the "true hope of the Noldor," I'm guessing that this is stated explicitly with that phrasing somewhere, but I don't know what that would be.

skyclad
2007-12-16, 08:42 AM
31 Kings

I looked it up.

To the Balrog/Gondolin thing, the Eagles guarded the mointian tops from all of Morgoths creatures. It is possible they would be able to discourage a Balrog. After all, Thorondor injured Morgoth himself.

Where does the true hope of the Noldor come from?

Well, if Morgoth found out that his Balrogs were getting pwned by giant eagles at a specific location among the mountains I think that counts as finding it ;)

I havent got the english book but the Noldors "true hope" should come from "the Valar beyond the sea" or somesuch.

CelestialStick
2007-12-16, 05:49 PM
31 Kings

I looked it up.

To the Balrog/Gondolin thing, the Eagles guarded the mointian tops from all of Morgoths creatures. It is possible they would be able to discourage a Balrog. After all, Thorondor injured Morgoth himself.

Where does the true hope of the Noldor come from?

It's 31 kings of Gondor after Ararion, and I said 13. That means most likely I saw the number somewhere in years gone by and transposed it. Memory is a tricky thing, isn't it? :smallredface:

Oh I think that Ulmo reminded one of the Noldor that the Noldor's "true hope lies beyond the sea." I think that's the phrase. I didn't remember it though until skyclad mentioned Valinor beyond the sea.

Hey TheElfLord, did skyclad answer your question about the unnamed battle correctly?

Walking, that's cool about choosing and answering questions that you know from memory.

Ok, I have a question. Who asked Tolkien if he was Jewish, and what was his response?

TheElfLord
2007-12-16, 07:03 PM
Yeah Skyclad did get the battle question right. I thought I had responded to that but it turns out I didn't. Once the Noldor arrived they started naming battles, but the one that took place without any Noldor was unnamed.

Both sky and celestial hit the jist of the response to my last question. Ulmo says, "The true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West and comeith from the Sea"

I have no idea who asked Tolkien if he was Jewish.

CelestialStick
2007-12-17, 02:14 AM
Yeah Skyclad did get the battle question right. I thought I had responded to that but it turns out I didn't. Once the Noldor arrived they started naming battles, but the one that took place without any Noldor was unnamed.

Both sky and celestial hit the jist of the response to my last question. Ulmo says, "The true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West and comeith from the Sea"

I have no idea who asked Tolkien if he was Jewish.

I thought the unnamed battle question was particularly clever because while it drew right from The Sillmarillion there's pretty much no way that I could have looked up the answer in The Complete Guide to Middle-Earth. I don't think it contains an entry under "Unnamed Battle." :smallbiggrin: When I read skyclad's answer I figured he had it right, but short of rereading the whole Sillmarillion, there's pretty much no way I ever would have gotten it. :smallsmile:

Does anyone want any sort of hint on the "who asked Tolkien if he was Jewish and what did he say?" question?

WillWolf
2007-12-17, 06:00 AM
He said he regretted that he was not Jewish. Calling them noble people among other things. He said that he was quite proud of his personal heritage, but regretted the recent war. This was towards the late 1930's. I'm paraphrasing forgive me.

And he was speaking to his German publishers if I remember correctly.

Oh and my question is:

What kenning did Tolkien say Beowulf's name was. Name and explination please.

WalkingTarget
2007-12-17, 10:21 AM
He said he regretted that he was not Jewish. Calling them noble people among other things. He said that he was quite proud of his personal heritage, but regretted the recent war. This was towards the late 1930's. I'm paraphrasing forgive me.

And he was speaking to his German publishers if I remember correctly.

Oh and my question is:

What kenning did Tolkien say Beowulf's name was. Name and explination please.

"Bee-wolf" which implies "bear". Is that enough?

CelestialStick
2007-12-19, 12:41 AM
He said he regretted that he was not Jewish. Calling them noble people among other things. He said that he was quite proud of his personal heritage, but regretted the recent war. This was towards the late 1930's. I'm paraphrasing forgive me.

And he was speaking to his German publishers if I remember correctly.

Oh and my question is:

What kenning did Tolkien say Beowulf's name was. Name and explination please.

Yes, the Nazis had come to power in Germany by the time that Tolkien got his work translated into German, and the Nazis had laws restricting publications by Jewish authors.

dehro
2007-12-20, 07:58 PM
shouldn't someone post a question by now?:smallbiggrin:

skyclad
2007-12-20, 08:11 PM
Assuming WalkingTarget is correct (I have no idea what a kenning is so I'll just assume it is) I'll post a new one:

By the silmarillion account of the dagor nirnaeth arnoediad, what unforseen event stopped the noldor from winning?

TheElfLord
2007-12-20, 09:20 PM
Assuming WalkingTarget is correct (I have no idea what a kenning is so I'll just assume it is) I'll post a new one:

By the silmarillion account of the dagor nirnaeth arnoediad, what unforseen event stopped the noldor from winning?

The treachery of men, specifically the Easterlings under Uldor switched sides in the middle of the battle.

Thrandul's dwellings in Mirkwood are likely based off of what?

CelestialStick
2007-12-20, 11:08 PM
Assuming WalkingTarget is correct (I have no idea what a kenning is so I'll just assume it is) I'll post a new one:

By the silmarillion account of the dagor nirnaeth arnoediad, what unforseen event stopped the noldor from winning?

"Kenning" come from the old Norse verb "kenna vid" (or "kenna vith") meaning to express one thing in terms of another. Originally "kenning" referred to alliterative verses on Old Norse that contained metaphors, since as "the flesh of the mother of giants" referring to the earth, or "whale road" referring to the sea. The term has come down to us in English through phrases like "that's beyond my ken" (meaning beyond my knowledge), and in Scottish usage, such as when you hear Scotty say "I donnae ken that" meaning "I don't understand that." Snorri Sturulson wrote the Prose Edda specifically to keep alive the Norse stories that served as the basis for the kennings so that Christian poets would still understand the kennings common in Icelandic poetry. Beowulf contains the whale-road kenning.

Apparently the name Beowulf itself literally means in Old English (aka Anglo-Saxon) "bee-wolf," a kenning for a bear, since bears will attack beehives for the honey, although I have to say that it's only a possible kenning and it seems at odds with most of the kennings. Generally in a kenning the one thing that means another has a normal meaning quite different from the other. A whale and a road, for instance, have very different meanings than the sea. Sif and hair have very different meanings than gold. It's very odd to make a kenning with something so close as a bear and a wolf. It's one thing to refer to gold as Sif's hair in reference to the story where Loki cut off Sif's natural hair and then had the dwarf Dvalin make her new hair out of gold, but why bother to call a bear a wolf? I suppose maybe wolves seemed fiercer than bears in general but when bears when after honey they seemed as fierce as wolves. It seems like something of a stretch, while most of the certain kennings are pretty clear in their origins, but it could be.

Maybe WillWolf can clear this up for us. What exactly did Tolkien say, and where did he say it? Thanks! :smallsmile:


The treachery of men, specifically the Easterlings under Uldor switched sides in the middle of the battle.

Thrandul's dwellings in Mirkwood are likely based off of what?

Um, could it be the hall of the Moutain King in Pier Gynt, the 1867 play by Norwegian playwright Henrik Ibsen, first performed in 1876 to incidental music written by Norwegian composer Edvard Grieg (Peer Gynt Suite, "In the Hall of the Mountain King")? I'm just guessing here. I know it primarily because of the music.

TheElfLord
2007-12-21, 03:01 AM
While that is possible Celestial, I was meaning what previous influences within Middle Earth.

CelestialStick
2007-12-21, 03:04 AM
While that is possible Celestial, I was meaning what previous influences within Middle Earth.

Ok, but I am still going to hum "In the Hall of the Mountain King" at you! :smalltongue: Hey, isn't it great when you ask a question and learn something from someone's answer? :smallbiggrin:

Ok in that case I'm thinking maybe the greatest of all the Sindar, realm of King Thingol inside the Girdle of Melian the Maia?

skyclad
2007-12-21, 07:18 AM
Thanks for your explanation CelestialStick, I knew what a kenning was, just didn't know the english name for it ;)
I guess Menegroth is the correct answer but since Celestial got it first I'll add Nargothrond for the heck of it^^

CelestialStick
2007-12-21, 11:30 AM
Thanks for your explanation CelestialStick, I knew what a kenning was, just didn't know the english name for it ;)
I guess Menegroth is the correct answer but since Celestial got it first I'll add Nargothrond for the heck of it^^

I'm not surprised that you, living in Sweden, would know what kenning is. Did you know that "ken" has trickled down into rare usage in modern English as I mentioned?

Hey, is there any Æsir worship in Sweden today the way there is in Iceland? Iceland subsidizes all religions with enough registered members, and Æsir worship has enough registered members to quality for the subsidy.

There's no way that I, with my lousy memory for names, would have recalled the name Menegroth. There are so many place names in The Sillmarillion and it's been so long since I've read it that there's just no way. For that matter I really couldn't recall what Nargothrond was and had to look it up. The Wikipedia entry says that it was inspired by Menegroth, so if Menegroth inspired Nargothrond then perhaps Nargothrond also inspired King Thranduil's realm. Where did you come across the idea that Menegroth inspired Thranduil's realm? Does Thranduil's realm even have a name? Is there any mention of Thranduil outside of The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit?

Ok, I am fresh out of new questions, but my cat has one. She says, "In one of the tragic flaws of Tolkien, cats appear only twice, and only briefly, in Middle-Earth. What are the two appearances?" :smallwink:

TheElfLord
2007-12-22, 12:22 PM
Well the idea of them being related comes from the Atlas of Middle Earth where it is sugested. Both were existing cave structures further excavated under hills by the banks of rivers in the middle of forrests. Thrandul was a Sindar, so it makes sense that he came from Menegroth and was inspired by Thingol's designs.

Thrandul is mentioned in the Unfinished tales in addition to the Hobbit and LotR, I don't know of anywhere else.

One cat mention is the cats of Queen Beril, whom Aragorn compares Gandalf too.

CelestialStick
2007-12-22, 06:50 PM
Well the idea of them being related comes from the Atlas of Middle Earth where it is sugested. Both were existing cave structures further excavated under hills by the banks of rivers in the middle of forrests. Thrandul was a Sindar, so it makes sense that he came from Menegroth and was inspired by Thingol's designs.

Thrandul is mentioned in the Unfinished tales in addition to the Hobbit and LotR, I don't know of anywhere else.

One cat mention is the cats of Queen Beril, whom Aragorn compares Gandalf too.

Yes, there's a story elsewhere about Queen Berúthiel, a Black Numenorean who becomes the wife of one of the kings of Gondor who hates cats but somehow intimidates them into becoming spies for her. That's one of the two mentions of cats. I think the other is even more obscure, but I'll wait a bit to see if anyone else comes up with it.

I thought I had the Atlas of Middle-Earth, but I can't find it. Is that Tolkien making the suggestion about Thranduil modeling his realm after Thingol's, or someone else? I see that Unfinished Tales has many references to Thranduil, but scanning quickly I didn't see anything on this subject.

skyclad
2007-12-22, 08:32 PM
I'm not surprised that you, living in Sweden, would know what kenning is. Did you know that "ken" has trickled down into rare usage in modern English as I mentioned?


No I didn't know that :)


Hey, is there any Æsir worship in Sweden today the way there is in Iceland? Iceland subsidizes all religions with enough registered members, and Æsir worship has enough registered members to quality for the subsidy.

Well I looked it up and it seems as the biggest such group only has some 250 members, and 3000 or more is required to get fundings. But it's free to register as a religion and practially anyone can register their own. ^^

As for your question, I'm going to guess that Frodo mentions a cat in his song at the prancing pony in bree.

EDIT: Unless you mean the early version of Beren and Luthien from the book of lost tales where cats play a big role.

CelestialStick
2007-12-22, 11:55 PM
No I didn't know that :)

Yes, when the "Danes" as the Anglo-Saxons called them, who are actually mostly Norwegians, conquered most of Anglo-Saxon Britain, the brought Old Norse with them so many words of Old Norse origin came into English. Since the modern Scandinavian languages descended from Old Norse too, we have many common words. "Ken" though has nearly dropped out of use in modern English though, so that's probably why you didn't know about it. It's sort of ironic that you don't have "ken" in the English that Swedes learn when you still have "kennings" (or something similar) in Swedish! :smallbiggrin: I find linguistic history fascinating.


Well I looked it up and it seems as the biggest such group only has some 250 members, and 3000 or more is required to get fundings. But it's free to register as a religion and practially anyone can register their own. ^^

Oh, so the Swedish government does the same thing, subsidizing sufficiently-large religions? Where can you look up religious membership in Sweden? That's just fascinating! I wonder if Æsir-worship has proportionately more members in Iceland than in Sweden because Iceland never underwent an armed Christian conquest of pagans, but merely voted at the Althing in 1000 to outlaw Æsir-worship without any central enforcement? That seems like a logical theory. It's also possible that after getting out from under Danish control, Icelanders saw a return to Æsir-worship as part of their return to Icelandic, non-Danish culture. I know that the Icelanders adopted the Old Norse system of using the patronymic or matronymic instead of family name for the last name. I understand that to get Icelandic citizenship you have to drop your family name and adopt the patronymic or matronymic.


As for your question, I'm going to guess that Frodo mentions a cat in his song at the prancing pony in bree.

Ding ding ding! Extra points for coming up with a third mention of cats! I completely forgot about that. The cat played the fiddle in that song. My cat is very happy now. :smallbiggrin:


EDIT: Unless you mean the early version of Beren and Luthien from the book of lost tales where cats play a big role.

I don't recall that. Do you recall the gist of it?

Do you want me to tell you the second mention of cats now? It is pretty obscure.

TheElfLord
2007-12-23, 12:28 AM
I thought I had the Atlas of Middle-Earth, but I can't find it. Is that Tolkien making the suggestion about Thranduil modeling his realm after Thingol's, or someone else?

It's Karen Wynn Fonstad sugesting the idea, though it makes a huge amount of sense considering Menegoth and Thranduil's palace are basically carbon copies of each other.

CelestialStick
2007-12-23, 12:30 AM
It's Karen Wynn Fonstad sugesting the idea, though it makes a huge amount of sense considering Menegoth and Thranduil's palace are basically carbon copies of each other.

What makes them carbon copies? I always got the sense that Thingol's place was vast and grand, while Thranduil's was sort of dinky. :smallsmile:

factotum
2007-12-23, 04:01 AM
Actually, as I recall, Tolkien painted Thranduil's palace, and it looks extremely similar to another painting he did of an earlier fortress. NOT Thingol's, though--it actually looks almost identical to Nargothrond! Of course, that doesn't mean they were INTENDED to be so similar, but you never know, Tolkien may have had the idea at the back of his mind while he was painting those pictures.

CelestialStick
2007-12-23, 04:50 AM
Actually, as I recall, Tolkien painted Thranduil's palace, and it looks extremely similar to another painting he did of an earlier fortress. NOT Thingol's, though--it actually looks almost identical to Nargothrond! Of course, that doesn't mean they were INTENDED to be so similar, but you never know, Tolkien may have had the idea at the back of his mind while he was painting those pictures.

Ah, very interesting. Do you recall where you saw those paintings?

factotum
2007-12-23, 05:04 AM
Unfortunately not. I have a feeling it was in one of my books, but I'm not sure which one--or even if I still have it.

CelestialStick
2007-12-23, 11:27 AM
Unfortunately not. I have a feeling it was in one of my books, but I'm not sure which one--or even if I still have it.

Bummer. I wonder if one or both could be in the Atlas of Middle Earth. I think my copy is still unpacked in a box somewhere. :smallsigh:

TheElfLord
2007-12-23, 01:24 PM
What makes them carbon copies?

A. Built by Sindar Lords
B. Situated in the Center of a Forrest
C. Enlarged existing cave structures
D. Built under a hill by a river
E. Enterance reached by a bridge over the river.

The last three points also apply to Nargothrond.

Also I justed checked a note in the Atlas that refernces a passaged in the Unfinished Tales, where it said that Thrandul and his father lived with Thingol, and based his dwelling on Menegroth, although Thrandul's was understandable lesser quality.

CelestialStick
2007-12-23, 05:51 PM
Also I justed checked a note in the Atlas that refernces a passaged in the Unfinished Tales, where it said that Thrandul and his father lived with Thingol, and based his dwelling on Menegroth, although Thrandul's was understandable lesser quality.

That's excellent! Could you give me the page number(s) in Unfinished Tales? Thanks. :smallsmile:

TheElfLord
2007-12-23, 07:21 PM
That's excellent! Could you give me the page number(s) in Unfinished Tales? Thanks. :smallsmile:

With pleasure. Page 259.

CelestialStick
2007-12-23, 08:17 PM
With pleasure. Page 259.

Thanks! That's fascinating. It doesn't say whether Thranduil himself ever lived in Doriath or just heard about it from his father, Oropher, who was king until the war with Sauron, where he perished. Earlier today I did read elsewhere in Unfinished Tales that Thranduil came from the west, but whether he lived in Doriath with his father under Thingol or was born after Oropher left Doriath isn't clear.

Vaire
2007-12-27, 09:55 AM
May I just say that I am in total awe of you people. I have trouble remembering my kids names sometimes, and your brain capacities seem to be endless. Once upon a time in high school I was one of you. Then I had children. And I had to make a decision in my brain, Tolkein or Babylon 5. Babylon 5 won, simply because the names are easier to remember. But I love reading your stuff. And when I don't understand, all I have to do is ask Target and he explains, patiently, what you mean. Merry Christmas!

CelestialStick
2007-12-27, 10:18 AM
May I just say that I am in total awe of you people. I have trouble remembering my kids names sometimes, and your brain capacities seem to be endless. Once upon a time in high school I was one of you. Then I had children. And I had to make a decision in my brain, Tolkein or Babylon 5. Babylon 5 won, simply because the names are easier to remember. But I love reading your stuff. And when I don't understand, all I have to do is ask Target and he explains, patiently, what you mean. Merry Christmas!

Heh. Thanks. Age might have something to do with it too. My therapist says that our memories aren't as good because we're in our forties now. I'm not sure how old you are, so maybe you can't use that excuse yet. I suffered the loss of someone very close about 5 years ago and the grief has really degraded my memory. I find it's harder to remember new things often times than things from before she died.

I have to say though that B5 has some unusual names too. All those goofy alien names. Right now I can remember only Delann (sp?). Ah, and Londo. Londo what though? And the guy from the race that hates Londo's race. Rats, I can't remember any of those names at all. Not Londo's race or the race they oppressed, or the name of the guy from that race, although he was played by Andreas K-something, Kastulus or something. See a) how bad my memory is and b) how tough the names of B5 are?

Ok, so it looks like nobody's getting my second reference to cats in Tolkien. The second reference is a traditional musical named Cats in which the hobbits dress up in tights and prance around like cats singing poems written by T.S. Eliot. Just kidding. It's really a traditional Shire poem named Cat which apparently Samwise arranged. It's in The Adventures of Tom Bombadil.

Ok, for what did many people wrongly think the One Ring served as a metaphor? :smallsmile:

WalkingTarget
2007-12-27, 10:32 AM
Nuclear weapons.

Tolkien distrusted allegory since he became old enough to recognize it, but what other "a" word does he thinks is perfectly acceptable and why does he hold these opinions?

CelestialStick
2007-12-27, 10:42 AM
Nuclear weapons.

Tolkien distrusted allegory since he became old enough to recognize it, but what other "a" word does he thinks is perfectly acceptable and why does he hold these opinions?

In those days we called it the atom bomb or the atomic bomb ("nuclear" is a buzzword of the late 1970s) but yes. :smallsmile:

When I was asking my A-bomb (another old reference for nuclear weapons) question I thought about the aversion to allegory he states right in the forward to The Lord of the Rings. He finds applicability perfectly acceptable, as it lies in the mind of the reader, whereas he sees allegory as an attempt by the author to dominate the reader.

Ok, here's what I'm sure is an easy one: why did Gandalf, despite having been through Khazad-dum before, get confused about which way to go?

WalkingTarget
2007-12-27, 12:07 PM
Yeah, "atom bomb" was the term used at the time, so you've got me there, but as the reactions involved are restricted to the atomic nucleus (i.e. the strong nuclear force), "nuclear" is more accurate (chemical reactions, such as conventional explosives, are more accurately "atomic" as they're due to the electromagnetic forces binding atoms together at least, they could be called such according to my "Nuclear Arms and Arms Control" physics professor ). I'm just used to using the more modern terminology.

Anyway, Gandalf was going the other direction the first time around. The 1-to-3-way split wasn't an issue as the path was just a continuation of where he was already going.

Probably already been covered, but I can't remember if it has or not, so...

Name 3 individuals who have "killed" balrogs (even if they all died in the process).

CelestialStick
2007-12-27, 12:23 PM
Yeah, "atom bomb" was the term used at the time, so you've got me there, but as the reactions involved are restricted to the atomic nucleus (i.e. the strong nuclear force), "nuclear" is more accurate (chemical reactions, such as conventional explosives, are more accurately "atomic" as it's due to the electromagnetic forces binding atoms together). I'm just used to using the more modern terminology.

Anyway, Gandalf was going the other direction the first time around. The 1-to-3-way split wasn't an issue as the path was just a continuation of where he was already going.

Probably already been covered, but I can't remember if it has or not, so...

Name 3 individuals who have "killed" balrogs (even if they all died in the process).

Even though I refer to them as nuclear weapons now too, and have for decades, back when people talked about the One Ring as a metaphor they always said "atom bomb" so that's been seared in my mind. It wasn't until you used the current terminology and it jarred that I realized it. :smallsmile:

Well let's see, there's Gandalf and Glorfindel and, um, somebody whose name starts with an "F?" Like Finrod or Finarfin.

Oh wait. The "f" is probably the "f" in Glorfindel. The third one is Ecthelion who slew Gothmog lord of balrogs in Gondolin. Oh rats, that means I have to come up with another question. Um, I'm too tired and I need to be somewhere in 90 minutes, so I'll leave it as an open question. :smallsmile:

CelestialStick
2007-12-27, 04:38 PM
OK, since nobody's posted a question yet, I have one that could be fun to answer and might take a while too: what creatures that are now in D&D appeared in or derived from Tolkien? :smallsmile:

truemane
2007-12-27, 04:44 PM
Eep. We could be at that one forever, and debating for another forever after that.

Certainly the following:

1. Elves
2. Dwarves.
3. Hobbits.
4. Orcs.
5. Half-Elves.

EDIT: Rangers. Not a creature, but there would be no D&D Ranger had Aragorn not been one.

And yes, there were such things as Elves and Dwarves BEFORE Tolkien, but he's the one who made them the way D&D and Modern Fantasy perceive them.

While we argue over that one, here's a simple one:

Name TWO instances where Tolkien describes an object talking.

WalkingTarget
2007-12-27, 04:51 PM
OK, since nobody's posted a question yet, I have one that could be fun to answer and might take a while too: what creatures that are now in D&D appeared in or derived from Tolkien? :smallsmile:

Well, I'm not really up on D&D honestly, but I'll get a list going:

Orcs/Goblins (Orcs/Goblins)
Balors (Balrogs)
Dragons (Dragons, granted they predate Tolkien)
Treants (Ents)
Halflings (Hobbits)
Elves (Elves, in the "like people, only immortal" sense instead of otherworldly or pixie types)
Dwarves (Dwarves, again borrowed from older myths too)
Trolls (Trolls, but in somewhat different form)
Humans (Humans, obviously)

Arguments could be made I suppose for Dire Wolf/Warg (are there Dire Elephants and, if so, would they compare to Mumakil?) More giant animals like Eagles or Spiders... I dunno.

D&D Wizards aren't even close to the Istari, though.

Feel free to add more if you think of them.

Edit - ninja'd. You've got me, I can only think of one talking item off the top of my head.

CelestialStick
2007-12-27, 04:57 PM
Eep. We could be at that one forever, and debating for another forever after that.

Certainly the following:

1. Elves
2. Dwarves.
3. Hobbits.
4. Orcs.
5. Half-Elves.

And yes, there were such things as Elves and Dwarves BEFORE Tolkien, but he's the one who made them the way D&D and Modern Fantasy perceive them.

While we argue over that one, here's a simple one:

Name TWO instances where Tolkien describes an object talking.

Yes, dwarves (dvergar) and elves (alfar) both come from Norse mythology. Both have also been absorbed into popular culture through other sources, like the story of Snow White and through ads for Keebler products and Rice Krispies. :smallsmile:

CelestialStick
2007-12-27, 05:48 PM
Well, I'm not really up on D&D honestly, but I'll get a list going:

Orcs/Goblins (Orcs/Goblins)
Balors (Balrogs)
Dragons (Dragons, granted they predate Tolkien)
Treants (Ents)
Halflings (Hobbits)
Elves (Elves, in the "like people, only immortal" sense instead of otherworldly or pixie types)
Dwarves (Dwarves, again borrowed from older myths too)
Trolls (Trolls, but in somewhat different form)
Humans (Humans, obviously)

Arguments could be made I suppose for Dire Wolf/Warg (are there Dire Elephants and, if so, would they compare to Mumakil?) More giant animals like Eagles or Spiders... I dunno.

D&D Wizards aren't even close to the Istari, though.

Feel free to add more if you think of them.

Edit - ninja'd. You've got me, I can only think of one talking item off the top of my head.

Remember from my original question that they can either be derived from Tolkien or simply have appeared in Tolkien. I seem to recall, for instance, that somewhere in The Sillmarillion werewolves appear, but obviously werewolves predate Tolkien and thanks in part to early Hollywood became a stable in popular culture. So wargs certainly qualify, especially having goblins ride them. :smallsmile:

Original D&D, by the way, actually had hobbits and balrogs (aka Type VI demons). I gather that Tolkien's estate gave Gary a hard time so he changed them to halflings and gave Balor as a name of one of the Type VI demons in existence.

I believe that one of the editions of D&D actually had an oliphant--a really big, tough elephant.

The current giant eagle, a magical beast, definitely bears a resemblance to the giant eagles of Middle Earth. The mindless giant spiders don't really resemble the intelligent spiders of Middle Earth, but there's a hint in there for another D&D creature definitely inspired by Tolkien.

On the dragon front I've wondered for 30 years whether Gary was influence at all in having the idea of a black dragon by Tolkien's Ancalagon the Black, or in having a white (or silver) dragon by the frost-drake Tolkien mentions.

There are still more besides.

TheElfLord
2007-12-27, 06:03 PM
Gotta be quick but the two items are the troll's purse from the Hobbit and Turin's Black sword.

Open question.

You can add vampires (mentioned in the Simerillion)
Giant Spiders

WalkingTarget
2007-12-27, 06:45 PM
Ah... Didn't remember the purse. Good one. The sword was Gurthang (previously Anglachel) btw.

CelestialStick
2007-12-27, 11:06 PM
Gotta be quick but the two items are the troll's purse from the Hobbit and Turin's Black sword.

Open question.

You can add vampires (mentioned in the Simerillion)
Giant Spiders

Good! There are still more D&D creatures in or inspired by Tolkien. :smallsmile:

tyckspoon
2007-12-27, 11:35 PM
Good! There are still more D&D creatures in or inspired by Tolkien. :smallsmile:

Werebears owe their Lawful Good alignment to Beorn. Many of the undead of D&D are not so different from Tolkien's creeps; shadows, specters, wights, wraiths and ghosts could all potentially fill the role of a Nazgul or barrow-wight.

jamroar
2007-12-27, 11:45 PM
Good! There are still more D&D creatures in or inspired by Tolkien. :smallsmile:

Obvious ripoffs...

Ents -> Treants for obvious reasons.
Wights (as undead abominations with bad hairdos, as opposed to just the archaic word for dude).
Orcs (as mean militant monstrous humanoids, as opposed to Free Willy).
Goblins (as above, as opposed to stunted mischievous fey beings)

CelestialStick
2007-12-27, 11:48 PM
Werebears owe their Lawful Good alignment to Beorn. Many of the undead of D&D are not so different from Tolkien's creeps; shadows, specters, wights, wraiths and ghosts could all potentially fill the role of a Nazgul or barrow-wight.

Good! The AD&D (1st Ed werebear) actually had a chaotic good alignment, but Beorn definitely fits the bill as a werebear. We get wights and wraiths as undead/creepies in both places too. Excellent!

WalkingTarget had a good point about the wizards of D&D differing substantially from the Istari, but in those early days of D&D most of us had Gandalf in mind when we played wizards, and D&D was full of arguments like, "Why can't my wizard use a sword? Gandalf used a sword!" We also had things like a famous Dragon article, "Gandalf Was a Fifth-Level Wizard" that purported to show that everything Gandalf did in The Lord of the Rings could be accomplished with spells of 1st through 3rd level (in original D&D). I ran a dungeon in college for my girlfriend and two of her yougner brothers, and the younger of the two, about 10 years old at the time, named his wizard Ganlaff. Ah, those were fun times. :smallbiggrin:

I missed truemane's edit above until now, but there's no doubt that the Aragorn and Faramir inspired the initial D&D ranger, appearing in Dragon before AD&D. I guess by 2nd Ed the ranger had been co-opted by R.A. Salvatorie's Drizzst, but he really started out as Aragorn/Faramir. (There was also attempts to turn him into Robin Hood, which ultimately culminated in the 3rd Ed archery weapon track, just as the Drizzst use culminated in the two-weapon fighting track.)

There are yet more. :smallsmile:


Obvious ripoffs...

Ents -> Treants for obvious reasons.
Wights (as undead abominations with bad hairdos, as opposed to just the archaic word for dude).
Orcs (as mean militant monstrous humanoids, as opposed to Free Willy).
Goblins (as above, as opposed to stunted mischievous fey beings)

The word orc has a fascinating etymology (or as I sometimes like to say, entymology :smallbiggrin: ). Among other things it might be related to the Latin word for death, and thus to Orcus, the name of the Roman god of death (sometimes referring to Hades, the Roman god of the underworld, and oddly sometimes viewed as a separate god.)

Oh, I forgot to mention that not only did Gary get hobbits/halflings from Tolkien, but Gary even took the three main subraces of halflings right out of Tolkien as well (changing the names slightly in AD&D as he changed hobbit to halfling).

I can think of at least two more creatures, and actually another character class, that appear in D&D and either came from or were partly influenced by Tolkien. People though have pulled out some ideas that I'd completely overlooked when I first asked the question (wizards, rangers, wights and wraiths) so there might be yet more!

Should we add magic items too? What D&D magic items also appeared in or were influenced by Tolkien? This is fun! I hope everyone else is enjoying it too! :smallsmile:

ForzaFiori
2007-12-28, 01:29 AM
just FYI, Hades was Greek. Pluto was the Roman god of the underworld.

CelestialStick
2007-12-28, 01:52 AM
just FYI, Hades was Greek. Pluto was the Roman god of the underworld.

Yeah, I meant to say that Orcus was sometimes associated in Roman religion with the Greek god Hades, as was the Roman god Pluto, but sometimes the Romans treated them as separate gods so that Orcus wasn't Pluto/Hades. I read one reference that actually claimed sort of the opposite, that Orcus was the Roman version of Hades and Pluto was a separate god. :smallsmile:

The splintering of gods is not that uncommon in religions. The Norse goddess Frigga, for instance, almost certainly started out as the same goddess as Freyja and they slowly diverged over time. Likewise by the time of Snorri Odinn had splintered into three gods, Odinn, Od and Hod. It can work the other way too, with different gods combining into one. The names of ancient Middle Eastern/Mediterranean gods El, Adonai (Adonis), Yaweh(/Jehvoah/Jove/Jupiter), for instance all came to mean "God" in Hebrew.

skyclad
2008-01-28, 08:11 PM
Oh I had almost forgotten this thread! :D

Maybe these have already been said but, Dragons and Vampires both appeared in Tolkiens writings. Other than that I think they've all been said.

As for magic items, "cloak of elvenkind", "ring of invisibility", "stone of scrying (?)", "everglowing lamp(?)" and various magical swords appear in his writing ;)

CelestialStick
2008-01-29, 12:24 AM
Oh I had almost forgotten this thread! :D

Maybe these have already been said but, Dragons and Vampires both appeared in Tolkiens writings. Other than that I think they've all been said.

As for magic items, "cloak of elvenkind", "ring of invisibility", "stone of scrying (?)", "everglowing lamp(?)" and various magical swords appear in his writing ;)

I was just thinking about this thread Sunday night, wondering what ever happened to it. It looks like my dissertation on the merging and splinting of gods sort of ended the discussion. :smalltongue:

The D&D cloaks and boots of elvenkind seem to come straight out of Lorien.

So does anyone have an unanswered question?

Vaire
2008-01-29, 09:32 AM
Okay, so if no one else has a question I have one that needs to be answered. I guess I could just go look it up or call Walking Target, but this is more fun.

Who made the two trees of Valinor, and how long was their cycle?

WalkingTarget
2008-01-29, 09:39 AM
Okay, so if no one else has a question I have one that needs to be answered. I guess I could just go look it up or call Walking Target, but this is more fun.

Who made the two trees of Valinor, and how long was their cycle?

Well, you've actually got me there. I can answer the first part, but would have to look up the second (also, do you mean how long was a "day" or how many years did they exist?).

skyclad
2008-01-29, 09:41 AM
Yavanna made them, and each day lasted for 12 hours. Each tree glowed for 7 hours each, but at one hour both of them shone together.

Which brothers servants set out diors sons in the forest to starve, and which brother later went looking for them? (Sons of Fëanor).

WalkingTarget
2008-01-29, 10:20 AM
Now this one I think I have.

Maedhros was the "good" brother and went to find them.

The tricky bit is which brother's servants put them out in the first place. Either Celegorm (not to be confused with Celeborn) or Curufin. At a pinch, I'd go with the former.

If so, from a metaphysical standpoint, what is troublesome about Dior?

kamikasei
2008-01-29, 10:28 AM
If so, from a metaphysical standpoint, what is troublesome about Dior?

Metaphysical? Can you be more specific?

WalkingTarget
2008-01-29, 10:33 AM
He is in a unique position within Tolkien's writing. There are other similar cases that are explained, but we aren't really given a final ruling on Dior. I'd make it more specific, but I can't think of a way of wording it without giving it away.

skyclad
2008-01-29, 10:59 AM
You are right about Celegorm.

Do you mean that he was 1/8 Maia, 3/8 elf and 1/2 man?

EDIT: Or that we don't know where he goes after he dies, to mandos and wait like elves, or die like men.

WalkingTarget
2008-01-29, 11:03 AM
Well, 1/4 maia, 1/4 elf, and 1/2 man (or 1/4 maia, and 3/4 man if you take Luthien as being human at that point), but yeah, that's what I meant.

Metaphysically-speaking, is he a mortal man or an immortal elf (or something else)? The descendants of Earendil get a choice, but nothing is specified for Dior.

Edit to account for your edit - yes, that's closer.

skyclad
2008-01-29, 11:04 AM
Oops yeah I counted that wrong ^^ But see my edit ;)

WalkingTarget
2008-01-29, 11:08 AM
Huzzah for posts with ninja-editing all around. Skyclad got it, does he have a question for us?

kamikasei
2008-01-29, 11:10 AM
He is in a unique position within Tolkien's writing. There are other similar cases that are explained, but we aren't really given a final ruling on Dior. I'd make it more specific, but I can't think of a way of wording it without giving it away.

Oh! I assume you mean that he is the son of Tuor and Idril, therefore half-elven, but it's never specified which kindred's fate he shares, whether his spirit goes to the halls of Mandos or whether he dies truly and leaves the circles of the world.

edit: Whoops: thought the post I was replying to was the most recent, missing that there was another page. Also, my genealogy-fu is weak, mixing up whose child he was.

skyclad
2008-01-29, 11:11 AM
In Norse mythology there is a character named "Gandalf". What kind of creature was he?

WalkingTarget
2008-01-29, 11:13 AM
Oh! I assume you mean that he is the son of Tuor and Idril, therefore half-elven, but it's never specified which kindred's fate he shares, whether his spirit goes to the halls of Mandos or whether he dies truly and leaves the circles of the world.

Swing and a miss. That was Earendil. Dior was the son of Beren and Luthien (just look up at the posts that must have ninja'd you).

Edit @ Skyclad - Dwarf? From the same list of names that Thorin & company come from.

kamikasei
2008-01-29, 11:15 AM
In Norse mythology there is a character named "Gandalf". What kind of creature was he?

I'm going to go with Elf, since Gandalf means Wand-Elf, as I recall reading... somewhere.

skyclad
2008-01-29, 11:16 AM
Walkingtarget got it ;)

WalkingTarget
2008-01-29, 11:26 AM
Cool. Hmm, now I have to think of a question though...

Ok, name the places and causes of the three Kinslayings.