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MageSparrowhawk
2007-10-15, 09:32 PM
Half-dragon Ascendant
Hit Die: d12
Requirements
Race: Half-Dragon
B.A.B.: +5
Skills: Knowledge (Arcana) 10 ranks, Intimidate 5 ranks, Sense motive 5 ranks
Feats: Dragon Breath and/or Draconic Wings and/or Draconic Tail
Spells: Spontaneously cast 2nd level arcane spells
Special: You must find and spend one full day communing with one of your dragon relatives (parent is best); or at least a dragon of your variety of adult age or older

Class Skills
Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Listen, Search, Sense motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Use magic device; plus any noted in your dragon's type.
Skill points per level: (6+int)

The Half-Dragon Ascendant must have at least half of its spells known of the same subtype as its dragon type (e.g. a half red dragon must know more fire spells than any other type).

Half-Dragon Ascendant
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Spells

1st|
+0|
+1|
+1|
+1|Dragon Essence, Draconic Familiar, Frightful Interaction|

2nd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+1|Scaled Armor, Improved Natural-Weapons|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

3rd|
+2|
+2|
+2|
+2|Draconic Form (1/day), Alternate Form|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

4th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+2|Damage Reduction, Blindsense|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

5th|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+3|Spell Resistance, Frightful Presence|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

6th|
+4|
+3|
+3|
+3|Draconic Form (2/day)|

7th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+3|Improved Breath Weapon|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

8th|
+6|
+4|
+4|
+4|Attack Form Improvement|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

9th|
+6|
+4|
+4|
+4|Draconic Form (3/day)|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

10th|
+7|
+5|
+5|
+5|Draconic Ascension|+1 level of existing spellcasting class [/table]

Dragon Essence: Each level of Half-dragon Ascendant you gain is also treated as a racial hit die. This increases your HD based abilities accordingly. Also, after every five levels you must return to the dragon relative you qualified for this class with for a number of consecutive days equal to your class level. Until this is completed, no more levels in Half-dragon Ascendant may be gained.

Draconic Familiar: Your familiar gains the draconic template. You are treated as a character of half of your Half-dragon Ascendant level in addition to any other sources of familiar advancement from other classes.

Frightful interaction: As long as you’re in your half dragon form, add half your class level to intimidate checks, but subtract half your class level from diplomacy, and gather information checks. You can scare people into doing what you want, but you have a harder time relating to them.

Scaled Armor: When you reach second level, your skin starts growing heavy scales over the course of the next eight hours you sleep, but then the scales separate from your body, creating a suit of skin-tight perfectly form-fitting armor (that you are proficient with). The armor provides an armor bonus equal to your class level, has a -2 armor check penalty, a +6 max Dex bonus, no arcane spell failure chance, and is considered light armor. You may sleep in this armor despite the check penalty. The removal of this armor is much like sloughing it off (a full round action), however donning it again takes another full eight hours of rest to regrow it. During that time it provides only ½ its normal bonus, grants a 50% arcane spell failure chance and a -5 armor check penalty. It cannot be enchanted.

Improved Natural Weapons: All your natural weapons are treated as one size category larger. This ability is only effective in your true form (and half-dragon form if applicable). This does not grant you any extra attack forms.

Draconic form: Once a day for every 3 levels (starting at 3rd), the Half-dragon Ascendant can take the form of a dragon of your type. The form's HD can be no higher than your ECL+5. You gain the size, type, subtype, speed, AC, attacks, space/reach, special attacks, special qualities, Str, Dex, and Con of the form. You do not gain any aditional spell casting, hit points, hit dice, or saves from the change. This lasts for 1 round/2 levels + your Cha bonus.

Alternate Form: In addition to taking the form of your dragon heritage, you also can take the form of your non-dragon parent as a free action for as long as you desire any number of times per day. You appear–for all intents and purposes–a creature of your non-dragon heritage, though demonstrating superhuman(oid) feats of strength or using your breath weapon may dissuade people from believing your disguise.

Damage Reduction: You gain damage reduction equal to the damage reduction of the dragon form you take with Draconic Form.

Blindsense: You gain blindsense out to 20'. This improves by another 20' every 3 levels.

Frightful Presence: You gain the frightful presence of the dragon form you take with Draconic Form. The save is figured the same as a dragon.

Spell Resistance: You gain spell resistance equal to the spell resistance of the dragon form you take with Draconic Form.

Improved Breath Weapon: Your breath weapon now deals damage one die larger (6d8 to 6d10) and the save increases by 3. This only affects your half-dragon form.

Attack Form Improvement: If you have wings, a tail, or a breath weapon usable in rounds you gain an additional ability based off of which ability(s) you have: Tail sweep, wing slam, or great breath. Your tail sweep affects a half circle around you, out to 5 feet every 5 levels. Wing slam grants you 2 bludgeoning attacks for 1d4+1/2 Str. Great breath allows you to fully manifest your dragon parent’s breath weapon. Once per day you may use the breath weapon of your true dragon form, using that save or your own, whichever is better. Your standard breath weapon also affects +10 feet (if a cone) or +20 (if a line). All of these abilities are only effective in your natural form (and half-dragon form if applicable).

Draconic Ascension: Once you reach 10th level, the dragon form you take becomes your 'true form', though you still can only take this form the predefined number of times per day (note: the Half-Dragon form is also your true form, so you can't force yourself into your "true form" with magic, etc.). This means you can start taking feats, prestige classes, etc. that your new true form meets the requirements for. You may also no longer take any form or appearance other than that of a creature with the dragon type or dragon-blooded subtype besides your Alternate Form ability.

..I know it's too strong right now (I think) so I'd appreciate any suggestions on how to balance it while still keeping the flavor...

vegetalss4
2007-10-16, 11:30 AM
pst.
we got something named Dragon disiple for this:smalltongue:

MageSparrowhawk
2007-10-16, 11:56 AM
notice in the requirements
Race: Half-Dragon
it's not the same as the dragon disciple, functionally or in flavor

FireSpark
2007-10-16, 12:48 PM
To answer your table formatting question first, go here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10313). It is chock full of nifty homebrew goodness.

Now, the critique


Half-dragon Ascendant
Hit Die: d12
Requirements
Race: Half-Dragon
B.A.B.: +5
Skills: Knowledge (Arcana) 10 ranks, Intimidate 5 ranks, Sense motive 5 ranks
Feats: Dragon Breath and/or Draconic Wings and/or Draconic Tail
Spells: Spontaneously cast 2nd level arcane spells
Special: You must find and spend one full day communing with one of your dragon relatives (parent is best); or at least a dragon of your variety of adult age or older

Class Skills
Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Listen, Search, Sense motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Use magic device; plus any noted in your dragon's type.
Skill points per level: (6+int)

The Half-Dragon Ascendant must have at least half of its spells known of the same subtype as its dragon type (e.g. a half red dragon must know more fire spells than any other type).

__moderate BAB, all low saves (maybe all moderate if I can make it work) spell casting increases on all but 1st and 6th__
(how do I insert a table? Can't figure out how to format the level by level stuff)

Again, see the above link, in regards to formatting not only tables, but the rest of the post. A good baseline, is to try and make it look like an entry from a published book.



Dragon Essence: Each level of Half-dragon Ascendant you gain is treated as a racial hit die. This increases your HD based abilities accordingly. Also, after every five levels you must return to the dragon relative you qualified for this class with for a number of consecutive days equal to your class level. Until this is completed, no more levels in Half-dragon Ascendant may be gained. (1st level)

A little work probably needed in clarifying the entry. (As written it seems a little, scatterred, to me.) But other than that, a +5 boost to one's breath weapon DC is nice, without being too overpowered.



Draconic Familiar: You loose your familiar, with the associated penalties. You choose a new familiar, and it has the draconic template. You are treated as a character of half of your Half-dragon Ascendant level in addition to any other sources of familiar advancement for the purposes of your familiar.(1st level)

This just doesn't jive with me. You're going to take something away from, penalize me for it, then give it back?:smallconfused: Why not just state that your familiar (if you have one) gains the draconic template? And just what is the draconic template anyways? Do you mean the half-dragon template, or some other dragon related one?



Frightful interaction: As long as you’re in your half dragon form, add your class level to intimidate checks, but subtract your class level from diplomacy, and gather information checks. You can scare people into doing what you want, but you have a harder time relating to them. (1st level)

Half-dragon form? This makes it sound like you're a lycanthrope. Which a half-dragon is not. This needs a re-wording I think. That and I think a +10/-10 bonus/penalty might be a bit much. Maybe only half that? (+5/-5, perhaps)



Scaled Armor: When you reach second level, your skin starts growing heavy scales over the course of the next eight hours you sleep, but then the scales separate from your body, creating a suit of skin-tight perfectly form-fitting armor (that you are proficient with). The armor provides an armor bonus equal to your class level, has a -2 armor check penalty, no arcane spell failure chance, and is considered light armor. The removal of this armor is much more like sloughing it off (a full round action), however donning it again takes another full eight hours of rest to regrow it. During that time it provides only ½ its normal bonus, grants a 50% arcane spell failure chance and a -5 armor check penalty. It cannot be enchanted. (2nd level)

Well, asides from giving a sorcerer access to something that will become stronger than full plate armor (mere -2 acp inexchange for +10 AC bonus, no spell failure chance, and no Dex cap = WAY TOOOO MUCH!, and the regrowing of it just doesn't balance enough), this just sounds like it should be a natural armor increase. But no where near 10. I would suggest a total of a +5 increase to natural armor over the course of the PrC.



Improved Natural Weapons: All your natural weapons are treated as one size category larger. This ability is only effective in your natural form (and half-dragon form if applicable). This does not grant you any extra attack forms. (2nd level)

Again this referencing to half-dragons being like lycanthropes. You may want to go back and freshen up on the MM entry. Asides from that, the advancement is highly acceptable.



Draconic form: Once a day for every 3 levels (starting at 3rd), the Half-dragon Ascendant can take the form of a dragon of your type. The form's HD can be no higher than your ECL+5. You gain the size, type, subtype, speed, AC, attacks, space/reach, special attacks, special qualities, Str, Dex, and Con of the form. You do not gain any spell casting, hit points, hit dice, or saves from the change. This lasts for 1 round/2 levels + your Cha bonus. (3rd level)

Believe it or not, I don't see a problem with this. Even at 20th-level, you've restricted it to a 25 HD (for base a humanoid) dragon. That's like a CR 11 or 12 tops. The only real benefit I can see (and it's a big one) is the flying and the combat. What about breath wapons? You don't mention super-natural abilities in the entry.



Alternate Form: In addition to taking the form of your dragon heritage, you also can take the form of your non-dragon parent as a free action for as long as you desire any number of times per day. You appear–for all intents and purposes–a creature of your non-dragon heritage, though demonstrating superhuman(oid) feats of strength or using your breath weapon may dissuade people from believing your disguise. (3rd level)

Again, some clarification may be needed. Is this a polymorph effect? An illusion? Whatever. Although I really don't see the need for this particular ability.



Damage Reduction:[/B] You gain damage reduction equal to the damage reduction of the dragon form you take.(4th level)

But from what age category? A younger dragon with DR 5/magic. That's doable. A DR 20/magic? That might bit over the top.



Blindsense: You gain blindsense out to 20'. This improves by another 20' every 3 levels.(4th level)

So, in the end, you'll have blindsense out to 60 feet. This seems much to me, but I will admit that I can't say why. Maybe reel it in a smidge.



Frightful Presence: You gain the frightful presence of the dragon form you take. The save is figured the same as a dragon.(5th level)

Frightful presence is based off age category, so again, from what age group would you get this ability? There are a few feats that grant a frightful presence. You could take a look at them and see how they work it.



Spell Resistance: You gain spell resistance equal to the spell resistance of the dragon form you take.(5th level)

Again, age category.



Improved Breath Weapon: Your breath weapon now deals damage one die larger (6d8 to 6d10) and the save increases by 3. This only affects your natural form (and half-dragon form if applicable). (7th level)

Boosting the damage die, I can see. Boosting the DC by 3, after you've already given them a boost by making this class stakc with racial HD? Too much. I say, drop the DC boost.



Attack Form Specialization: If you have wings, a tail, or a breath weapon usable in rounds- you gain an additional ability based off of which ability(s) you have: Tail sweep, wing slam, or great breath. Your tail sweep affects a half circle around you, out to 5 feet every 5 levels. Wing slam grants you 2 bludgeoning attacks for 1d4+1/2 Str. Great breath allows you to fully manifest your dragon parent’s breath weapon. Once per day you may use the breath weapon of your true dragon form, using that save or your own, whichever is better. Your standard breath weapon also affects +10 feet (if a cone) or +20 (if a line). All of these abilities are only effective in your natural form (and half-dragon form if applicable).(8th level)

I think this section needs a rewrite. It confuses me all over. I'm not really sure what it's supposed to be giving.



Draconic Ascension: Once you reach 10th level, the dragon form you take becomes your 'true form', though you still can only take this form the predefined number of times per day (note-the Half-Dragon form is also your true form, so you can't force yourself into your "true form" with magic, etc.). This means you can start taking feats, prestige classes, etc. that your new true form meets the requirements for. You may also no longer take any form or appearance other than that of a creature with the dragon type or dragon-blooded subtype besides your Alternate Form ability. (10th level)

By "what your true form qualifies for", what exactly are you referring too? Since you're already a half-dragon, you have the dragon-type and thus can take draconic feats. Although, I guess this would get you into Dragon PrCs, but all in all, I think this ability just runs sideways with me.



..I know it's to strong right now (I think) so I'd appreciate any suggestions on how to balance it while still keeping the flavor...

In closing? The main thing I suggest is a re-read of the half-dragon template, and then incorporating that kind of thing into this class.

MageSparrowhawk
2007-10-16, 07:06 PM
ok, lets see...
--actually, I think it's a +10 (+1 per racial hit die) but, at 20, that isn't really very high...
--note change in familliar ability (and the draconic template is in the Draconomicon and races of the dragon)
--The whole thing about half-dragon form is based on the transformation ability at 3rd level, because I want to restrict when specific abilities apply
--remember, this is supposed to be a gish class, so it needs a high ac, and full plate can go up to a +13 armor bonus because of enchanting (whereas this can't)
--finally someone sees the Draconic form ability in all of it's...averageness? (also, the breath weapon would fall under the category of special attacks)
--I think the alternate form would be a polymorph, but I'm not completely sure, and it's there because 1) the character is gaining some control of how much her draconic heritage manifests, and 2) it's so the character can continue to interact with npc's and not get the short end of the stick when it comes to roleplaying
--blindsense 60' is what all wyrmlings have...I don't really think it's too much. Besides, it's not blindsight.
--the DC bost is to make up for the half dragon's +3 level adjustment, but if you think it's too much, I'll change it.
--attack form improvement...well, depending on which and how many of the feat requirements you have, you get an aditional ability. that's pretty much it.

ok...this is a great start, thank you for the input

FireSpark
2007-10-16, 10:11 PM
ok, lets see...
--actually, I think it's a +10 (+1 per racial hit die) but, at 20, that isn't really very high...
--note change in familliar ability (and the draconic template is in the Draconomicon and races of the dragon)
--The whole thing about half-dragon form is based on the transformation ability at 3rd level, because I want to restrict when specific abilities apply
--remember, this is supposed to be a gish class, so it needs a high ac, and full plate can go up to a +13 armor bonus because of enchanting (whereas this can't)
--finally someone sees the Draconic form ability in all of it's...averageness? (also, the breath weapon would fall under the category of special attacks)
--I think the alternate form would be a polymorph, but I'm not completely sure, and it's there because 1) the character is gaining some control of how much her draconic heritage manifests, and 2) it's so the character can continue to interact with npc's and not get the short end of the stick when it comes to roleplaying
--blindsense 60' is what all wyrmlings have...I don't really think it's too much. Besides, it's not blindsight.
--the DC bost is to make up for the half dragon's +3 level adjustment, but if you think it's too much, I'll change it.
--attack form improvement...well, depending on which and how many of the feat requirements you have, you get an aditional ability. that's pretty much it.

ok...this is a great start, thank you for the input


I understand many things that you have included now, and why. Such as blindsense not being blindsight, etc.:smallannoyed: And after actually doing the math on the aforementioned DCs (rather than than just eyeballing everything in a rush to get things posted before being invaribly interupted:smallsigh: ) I can now see that an overall DC of 18+Con, really isn't too killer. (Although there are feats that could really make this sky-rocket, but lets be serious. WHo's gonna boost the DC on something that you get to use once a day. Although I do think the scaled armor should at least carry a Dex cap, or something, besides asimply a -2 acp. Maybe nothing much, but something to balance it out just a bit.

MageSparrowhawk
2007-10-17, 05:20 AM
good calculations....(hadn't noticed that...heh) but just so you know, the dragon breath feat allows you to use it once every 1d4 rounds, just like a normal dragon
also, I changed the acp to -3, so it's a little higher, but I'm not sure where to cap the dex bonus...just for the flavor I was thinking at +5...but I don't know if that would still be too high...

FireSpark
2007-10-17, 06:11 AM
good calculations....(hadn't noticed that...heh) but just so you know, the dragon breath feat allows you to use it once every 1d4 rounds, just like a normal dragon
also, I changed the acp to -3, so it's a little higher, but I'm not sure where to cap the dex bonus...just for the flavor I was thinking at +5...but I don't know if that would still be too high...

Since, as you mentioned before, the armor really can't be enchanted, a +5 Dex bonus cap seems quite acceptable. In fact, I could see pushing it to 6. The idea was to just put some sort of limiting factor on it. Bracers of armor are the only other things that came close to matching your scaled armor. And the highest non-epic version of that costs 64,000gp. Considering that this is a free class feature, I had just figured some sort of limiting or balancing measures were necessary.

MageSparrowhawk
2007-10-17, 07:28 AM
ok...cool....so now the question is, does it look balanced to you? (and anyone else out there looking at this)
-before I forget, do all of the 'form dependant' abilities make sense now?

vegetalss4
2007-10-17, 07:50 AM
notice in the requirements
Race: Half-Dragon
it's not the same as the dragon disciple, functionally or in flavor

i am sorry i misunderstood the name

MageSparrowhawk
2007-10-17, 09:19 PM
do you understand now?

Anxe
2007-10-17, 10:55 PM
pst.
we got something named Dragon disiple for this:smalltongue:

It's like the epic progression for a Dragon Disciple.

MageSparrowhawk
2007-10-18, 06:37 AM
to some extent, it is. However, you don't turn into a full dragon at the end of this. That is the point of the Dragon Disciple, but For the Half Dragon taking this class, why do you want to 'become' the creature that left you as a child? Using that power however, is a great way to take revenge/right wrongs/actually have a chance to roleplay ever again (In town or somewhere like that) Also, even at level 30, the Dragon Disciple doesn't qualify for (true) Dragon Presteige classes.
--ther's probably more things, but I can't think of them right now.

MageSparrowhawk
2007-10-19, 08:57 PM
...I really don't like having to do this, but there is still work to be done on this...
:bump: