Really struggling to RP a tribal lizardfolk

[Spore]

So I am playing a tribal lizardfolk in a PbP game here on this forum. I really struggle to RP both the pragmatism, his tribal background and his relative simple mind (Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 7 in Pathfinder terms).

The tribe I assume is set up as a matriarchy. Females lay eggs and the nests need to be protected as a team effort, esp. in a fantasy jungle setting. As growth is not restricted, size equals respect and power. A monetary economy does not make sense, neither does effective socialism imho.

How and why would these creatures bond with each other? Would they even form tribes or just unite to defend a nest, then part ways? As for the pragmatism, would a character supposedly grown up with a social structure (so going with the tribal idea rather than the solitary one) even perceive things as this pragmatic without a scope for the social aspects? Example: The character would feed a party member unable to hunt if they would provide other benefits. But they would cease if the member does not contribute. Would the character see the social value in carrying a weak (party) member all the way for the sake of compassion and social cohesion (i.e. not to make the actually useful party members angry at him)?

[Mastikator]

I'd go with family, they stick together because they're related. There are more roles than just the hunters and what not, someone who's bad at combat/hunting can still function as a caretaker, builder, gatherer, carrier. I suspect that being totally unable to contribute is exceedingly rare.

Pragmatically they are way stronger together than they ever could be alone, the strongest tribes wouldn't even be whichever has the strongest warriors but rather most warriors. But to have many warriors in a tribal setting the social system must be smart enough to invent jobs for those not able to fight, and help them do their jobs better. AKA the ones that cares for their smaller members are stronger than the ones that care for their stronger ones.

I also think that though fighting between lizardfolk tribes might be the norm, the ones that can benefit more from a truce should do so, and they "enforce" this truce by trading members directly. Not only would traded members become hostages (so it's a sign of good faith and incentive not to fight) but also it would help prevent inbreeding and increase diversity. So again the most powerful tribes would be the ones that don't fight other lizardfolk tribes. It's not like they would forget how to defend themselves when there are plenty of other dangers around.

[Kaptin Keen]

Even animals manage to construct complex social groups. Int 8 is a perfectly viable human IQ - not a Nobel prize winner, but someone who could hold down the vast majority of jobs out there. IQ has zero bearing on our ability to care for others. Dogs love entirely unconditionally, and are dumb as doornails. Adorable - but dumb.

However, one might expect a society of comparably low IQ members to be .. more brutish. Philosophy wouldn't be much use to anyone, because they wouldn't get it. Religions may well be basic nature worship; sky and earth, storm and lightning, that sort of thing. But tribes would likely be ruled by the strongest ... unless ... I'd consider lizardfolk an elder race. Like, they're almost literally the offspring of dinosaurs (yes, I'm just making that up), they're easily the eldest of the races, older than the elves by millions of years. They're old, and their religions are old. They're also numerous. Like birds. You don't think about it much, but they're everywhere, and such numbers add up.

So potentially, your lizardfolk are - entirely unknown to themselves - a power house. The innumerable worshippers of simple, yet hugely powerful gods (because they have oodles of worshippers), religions more ancient even than any Old Ones of the younger races.

You could build a ton of stuff off that. Ancient powers of the earth, swamp deities forever lurking beneath the still, rotting waters. Underwater temples, alligator guard creatures, wyverns maybe (a stretch, maybe?!), bog golems, snakes and spiders and insects - stirges, for instance.

They could have all manner of interesting weaponry. Tridents are famously the weapon of the Lizard King, of course, but nets, harpoons, maybe stink bombs (think an effect like the troglodyte stench). They might be able to summon swarms of flies or mosquitoes to obscure vision.

I think much fun can be had with lizard folk =)

[redwizard007]

So I am playing a tribal lizardfolk in a PbP game here on this forum. I really struggle to RP both the pragmatism, his tribal background and his relative simple mind (Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 7 in Pathfinder terms).

The tribe I assume is set up as a matriarchy. Females lay eggs and the nests need to be protected as a team effort, esp. in a fantasy jungle setting. As growth is not restricted, size equals respect and power. A monetary economy does not make sense, neither does effective socialism imho.

How and why would these creatures bond with each other? Would they even form tribes or just unite to defend a nest, then part ways? As for the pragmatism, would a character supposedly grown up with a social structure (so going with the tribal idea rather than the solitary one) even perceive things as this pragmatic without a scope for the social aspects? Example: The character would feed a party member unable to hunt if they would provide other benefits. But they would cease if the member does not contribute. Would the character see the social value in carrying a weak (party) member all the way for the sake of compassion and social cohesion (i.e. not to make the actually useful party members angry at him)?

I've always played lizardfolk as communal in location and motivation, but individual in all other ways. That doesn't translate well into PCs, but since PCs are usually the oddballs of society...

A lizardfolk in his swamp is focused on survival and procreation (possibly seasonably.) He makes his own tools and weapons, so he is always on the look out for useful raw materials. Cooperation with other lizardfolk isn't common, but neither is it entirely unheard of. For the most part, lizardfolk ignore one another. The chief (really just the largest lizardfolk in the immediate area,) or a shaman, may impose their will on lesser lizardfolk and force them to complete a task, but usually all the conscripts will go about said task individually rather than cooperating. Injured lizardfolk may be nurtured back to health, but are more likely left to die and consumed if they fall. Encroaching humanoids are probably hunted for food and salvage unless they are heavily armed and outnumber the lizardfolk at least 4:1.

Take this guy out of the swamp and call him a PC and what changes? His decision making always gets him yelled at. Rather than blunder from conflict to conflict he waits. Waits as only a reptile can wait. Motionless. Silent. Tensing for the strike, but always waiting for an indicator from someone else in the group before lashing out. He rarely acts. In fact, he's probably frustratingly hard to play. He can contribute in so many ways, but waits to be asked by the soft skins so he doesn't mess something up. He doesn't understand all these rules. Doesn't understand the soft skins at all. The mild poisons they drink. The cooking of some meat and burying of other meat. The constant mating urges they deal with. So he waits.

[Tvtyrant]

Lots of ways you could do it. One would be that Lizardfoll have to go out and do a pilgrimage to become a tribal elder. They go and see the world, making a name for themselves, and when they achieve enough they become marked by their tribes spirit and they can return to lead. This is meant to help the tribe know the world better and provide it with strong leaders.

Your character has decided to become an elder, and their ambition has led them to leave while still young. When you return the tribe will acknowledge your greatness as the youngest elder in centuries.

[Pauly]

First let’s deal with the tribal - although it probably would be more accurate to call it a clan or extended family group. Loyalty is to the clan, outsiders are treated with suspicion if not outright hostility. For them it is a Calvinist world, where the people in the world are hostile and out to get you. The loyalty to the group and suspicion of outsiders serves many purposes:
- protection/acquisition of resources.
- development of resources - tool building, farming, animal husbandry etc. The group working together provides more benefits than individuals working alone.
- protection/acquisition of females (bride kidnapping was very common in human tribes/clans of similar development to what is described in the OP).
- passing on/protection of knowledge
- connection to ancestors/ancestral spirits.
- And most importantly survival, because outside folks will kill you to take your stuff if they have the opportunity.

In history these kind of groups had very brutal and pragmatic values. Elders, the disabled and chronically sick who were no longer adding value to the clan were abandoned to die in times of hardship. In times of extreme hardship young children were killed or left to die. The sick and injured were nurtured back to health because it took less time and effort to bring them back to health than to raise a child into a productive member of the group. However if the sick or injured are endangering the group they will be discarded.

There were complex traditions about contact with other clans. Trade is still important, but because of the inherent distrust there will be elaborate processes and a profound respect of hospitality laws. Breaking the hospitality laws will mean the clan will lose the trust of other clans forever. The Scottish still say “Never trust a Campbell” even though the massacre of Glencoe happened well over 300 years ago.
However outsiders, other humanoids, are outside of these traditions. Whether or not the hospitality laws are kept with these outsiders will change with the mood. If the outsiders follow the hospitality laws they are much less likely to be murdered in their sleep.

As I understand it the lizard folk will be adventuring in a party with outsiders. I assume you have a backstory about why your lizard folk has joined the party. The main features I would have as the RPing elements of the character.
- distrustful of other party members.
- will not risk heroic sacrifice for the other party members. If your character does something that could be a heroic sacrifice it will be for the benefit of his clan.
- will not causally give up his resources for the benefit of other party members. He might give you a potion if it’s the difference between life and death, but not for a temporary buff.
- will be patient, and say little. For example if the rest of the party make a plan instead of saying “I agree, what a great idea” he will start making preparations for the plan without saying a word. There’s a saying which I’ve heard attributed to several different groups “When the white man hunts he talks a lot, walks fast and sees nothing. When [we] hunt we say nothing, walk slowly and see everything”.
- in disagreement he will be say “no” with the bare minimum of explanation. Stubborn refusal is his main way of showing disagreement.

You could play it that he has a link/connection with one other party member, which your character would treat as being as the same clan as himself.

One movie I would recommend to watch for characterization is the French movie “Brotherhood of the Wolf”. The character Mani is a tribal American Indian who has been brought to mid 18th century France.

[DrMartin]

Here, have some inspiration:

Eating people is fine so long as well agree on it (https://www.reddit.com/r/DnDGreentext/comments/97riuv/eating_people_is_fine_so_long_as_we_all_agree_on/), the campaign journal of a lizardman party. Really good stuff.

Reeeally good. The interplay between the characters (lizardfolks from different tribes) becomes quite engaging as the story progresses, and shows clever facets of a tribal and pragmatic society of intelligent reptiles in a fantasy world.

[daremetoidareyo]

How do female lizardfolk achieve status? answering this might help.

[Tawmis]

So I am playing a tribal lizardfolk in a PbP game here on this forum. I really struggle to RP both the pragmatism, his tribal background and his relative simple mind (Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 7 in Pathfinder terms).

The tribe I assume is set up as a matriarchy. Females lay eggs and the nests need to be protected as a team effort, esp. in a fantasy jungle setting. As growth is not restricted, size equals respect and power. A monetary economy does not make sense, neither does effective socialism imho.

How and why would these creatures bond with each other? Would they even form tribes or just unite to defend a nest, then part ways? As for the pragmatism, would a character supposedly grown up with a social structure (so going with the tribal idea rather than the solitary one) even perceive things as this pragmatic without a scope for the social aspects? Example: The character would feed a party member unable to hunt if they would provide other benefits. But they would cease if the member does not contribute. Would the character see the social value in carrying a weak (party) member all the way for the sake of compassion and social cohesion (i.e. not to make the actually useful party members angry at him)?

Think of it as Wolves. They form a pack. The pack knows - together, there is better chance of survival. Whether this means in regards to hunting - more attackers on a target, equal a target at disadvantage, and easily trapped. This also helps in survival when night (or day) comes and they rest - some of the pack remains aware and awake. Like the saying says, "There is strength in numbers."

I could definitely see a primitive tribe being formed - not only to protect the eggs, protect one another, but to ensure each of them continues to hunt and survive together - for the species.

[Cynthaer]

I've got a lizardfolk druid named Baeshra in a PbP game myself. For me, the core character concept was that she spent some time traveling with humans, and picked up what we would see as a decent approximation of human ethics along the way.

As a character, that doesn't mean she's "basically a human", though. Her path to analyzing social and ethical matters is fairly circuitous. She doesn't value others' happiness for its own sake, but she's worked out that when lots of "soft ones" are happy, that's generally good.

For roleplaying purposes, this is great for me, as the person who has to play her in a group without annoying everyone else. (I.e., the "why would she carry a weak ally to safety instead of leaving them?" problem in the OP.) Basically, she has a vaguely utilitarian heuristic that can shortcut a lot of motivation questions.

Overall, I'd say there are a few things she already thinks about the world that make it easy to play cooperatively:


1. When many soft ones feel pleasure, things are generally safer and Baeshra is rewarded.

2. Familiar soft ones are more predictable and easier to work with.

(Corollary: Lying is hard and confusing, and not worth it. It's easier to assume soft ones tell the truth until they prove otherwise.)

3. Hatchlings are weak and should be protected. (This is the closest to being "emotional", but for a lizardfolk it's more of just a Thing That Is True. Otherwise they wouldn't survive.)

(Corollary: Soft ones, especially small soft ones, are also kind of weak. They're a bit like hatchlings.)

She's got some other quirks—for instance, despite having no sense of "art" or "style", she decorates her face with paint and ribbons because she learned that it makes soft ones less nervous—but that's the core of it.

In gameplay, she still comes off as utterly alien, because, like a toddler, she has no idea what other people already know. She often works out her reasoning aloud, including things that would generally go unstated:


Baeshra looked at the paper, then brought it back to the table and held it out.

"This is paper with writing. Baeshra does not understand the writing. Baeshra destroyed a piece of paper she did not understand. This caused less pleasure for soft ones. Baeshra does not destroy paper."

Baeshra sat down at the bar next to the elf and dwarf. She very slowly began to pull off small pieces of the pork and place them into her mouth, one at a time.

"Baeshra eats meat slowly. This gives soft ones less fear. Soft ones will not try to take the meat. Those soft ones have much fear."

She pointed at the group that had retreated across the room, then resumed eating in silence.
Or missing things that you normally would make explicit:


Baeshra held out several gold pieces to nobody in particular.

"Soft ones give meat for coins."
Your character doesn't need to have these exact views and traits, but my general advice is this:

Any lizardfolk who successfully travels with a D&D party is unusual. Figure out why your character is unusual, and how that helps them work in a group with soft ones.

Baeshra is unusual because she's already spent years in human lands. Her ability to cooperate is entirely learned.

Another lizardfolk might simply have been born with a particularly strong instinct for protecting hatchlings, and extends that instinct to any soft one he spends more than a few hours with.

Another might be so crafty that she's downright innovative (lizardfolk don't have art, but as a culture they've invented plenty of functional weapons and tools).

Another might just have something about them that made it so that the moment they encountered the Church of , they just got absolutely [I]stuck on the idea of soft one religion. Who knows what they're getting out of it, but they're clearly very focused.

Another might be a seemingly normal lizardfolk who, inexplicably, was chosen by a soft one god to be a cleric. What does it mean for a lizardfolk, who fundamentally does not experience emotions or art, to be a cleric of Sune—the literal goddess of beauty, love, and passion?

One way or another, find a hook that works for you.

[redwizard007]

So many players I want to invite to my roll20 campaign...

[Psyren]

Your character doesn't need to have these exact views and traits, but my general advice is this:

Any lizardfolk who successfully travels with a D&D party is unusual. Figure out why your character is unusual, and how that helps them work in a group with soft ones.

This is a key point for any PC, not just a Lizardfolk one. Remember, adventurers are weird. It's a highly dangerous profession (how many jobs throw you into life-or-death combat/dungeon crawls against encounters equal to or even higher than your level on a regular basis?) and one that's difficult to articulate the benefits of to non-adventurers. Most people, even in a fantasy setting, who walk up to other people and proclaim themselves to be adventurers will get looked at as though they are nutjobs. And to even have a chance of surviving, most folks who do it have to be exceptional specimens in one or more ways to begin with, i.e. by having stats that at least beat the elite array, and training in a PC class of some kind.

So with all of that, it's not only likely that a PC doesn't have the ordinary mindset/outlook of his people, it's pretty much expected. And since your PC is already special, coming up with reasons they don't see the world the same way as the nonadventuring members of their species should come readily.

[Cynthaer]

Another thought: A lot of what makes Baeshra (or any other character) sound "alien" is based on violating Gricean maxims (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative_principle).

Baeshra in particular is all over the place with regard to the maxims of quantity and relevance, and sometimes manner. In other words, she frequently gives more or less information than you would expect during a conversation, not all of her statements are relevant to what you regard as the topic of conversation, and they're sometimes ambiguous as to their meaning:

"Baeshra eats meat slowly. This gives soft ones less fear. Soft ones will not try to take the meat. Those soft ones have much fear."

For starters, this entire thing would usually go unstated, since you don't really need to tell people you're doing something for etiquette reasons. Indeed, it undercuts the effect if you say it out loud.

Second, Baeshra largely speaks in small, complete sentences with no "connective tissue". No conjunctions, no semicolons, no em dashes. There are very few hints as to how each thought relates to the next.

On top of that, some of these sentences are tangents from the "main topic", and may relate to a thought that wasn't even the most recent! The observation that those people over there are scared of Baeshra isn't related to the previous sentence (soft ones won't steal her meat), but the one before that (making people less afraid). And even then, it's not 100% clear how they're related, beyond the topics of soft ones and fear.

The end result is that the listener gets a bit of whiplash and has to do a lot of the work in sorting out which bits are relevant and why. This can be irritating to your fellow players if you're throwing in nonsense for the sake of making things harder to read, so you should avoid retreading old ground (let your character learn), and preferably provide some insight into the character along the way.

Here, Baeshra establishes several things about her character, beyond the obvious fact that she eats slowly:

She learns "etiquette" to make others more comfortable.
Originally, she ate meat very quickly, because others might try to take it. This is probably normal among (her group of) lizardfolk.
At some point, she learned that soft ones won't do that, so it's safe to go slow.
She can recognize when people are afraid of her and pays attention to it.


Again, the point here isn't to give a lesson on writing my one specific character. It's just an illustration of some tools you can use to make a weird, alien character while still cooperating, moving plots forward, and generally not being a massive pain for others to read.