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gareth
2007-10-17, 03:42 AM
In 3.5 DnD, how would you go about permanently removing all of a sorceror's magical abilities, if you had his full cooperation?

Skjaldbakka
2007-10-17, 03:48 AM
There is a ritual in a sword&sorcery supplement I have. It is intended as a punishment, though. I don't remember the name of the book though, as I rarely use it.

Reel On, Love
2007-10-17, 03:52 AM
Use the retraining rules in the PHB II to replace his sorcerer levels. Have a quest to do it, in-game.

boomwolf
2007-10-17, 04:10 AM
you could kill his char and get him a new one on the go.
removing the spellcasting from a sorcerer is like having levels in commoner.

Maltrich
2007-10-17, 04:15 AM
1. Help him level up until he can cast Mordenkainen's Disjunction.

2. Go find a lot of artifacts, especially ones you don't want for any reason, at all.

3. Have him cast Mordenkainen's Disjunction on these artifacts until he manages to "accidentally" lose all casting ability. If you run out of artifacts too soon, go to 2.

EDITED: Because I went and looked up the artifact I mentioned, and realized it had some redeeming qualities.

Reinboom
2007-10-17, 04:33 AM
Use the retraining rules in the PHB II to replace his sorcerer levels. Have a quest to do it, in-game.

This would probably be the best method. Is the sorcerer a PC or NPC?

gareth
2007-10-17, 05:00 AM
It's not a specific PC, just part of a setting. There's a government that strongly disapproves of sorcery and is going to great lengths to wipe it out. But they're humane enough to try to remove the magical abilities without hurting the sorceror. Something like the mutant cure from the X-Men. The "full cooperation" bit is actually more of a "beats life without parole in an anti-magic cell". I'd expect it to mainly apply to NPCs, but a sorceror PC could always blunder into it.

Khanderas
2007-10-17, 05:26 AM
It's not a specific PC, just part of a setting. There's a government that strongly disapproves of sorcery and is going to great lengths to wipe it out. But they're humane enough to try to remove the magical abilities without hurting the sorceror. Something like the mutant cure from the X-Men. The "full cooperation" bit is actually more of a "beats life without parole in an anti-magic cell". I'd expect it to mainly apply to NPCs, but a sorceror PC could always blunder into it.
Oh like in the wheel of time series. A researching a ritual for this should be within a goverments funds. Technically an undispellable (or very hard to dispel) curse. OR
Permanencied AMF, radius 1 foot on a tiny object implanted in his skull... or the same on a necklace he may not remove without the law tracking him down.

Kaerou
2007-10-17, 05:26 AM
Enhance his will save to the point he cant fail the will save.

Then cast baleful polymorph on him and turn him into something that cant cast spells.

There, no more pesky spellcasting ;)

Reinboom
2007-10-17, 05:34 AM
Look at the spell Programmed Amnesia. (Spell Compendium).
Though, using spells to remove spells...

TranquilRage
2007-10-17, 05:48 AM
You could cut his head off.

Dhavaer
2007-10-17, 05:51 AM
Have him take levels in Shadowcaster. I'm pretty sure they can replace Sorcerer levels.

Dode
2007-10-17, 06:14 AM
Polymorph him into a Karsite from Tome of Magic?

Mad Mask
2007-10-17, 06:19 AM
Use a cursed item to reduce his charisma to 9.
Simple, really.

Jack_Simth
2007-10-17, 06:23 AM
Ability Drain (Charisma) not a magic item - permanent, and not a new expense for every Sorcerer; you're just hiring the one critter that has the ability. Plus, plot hook: Undo the "cure" (at lower-levels).

Kurald Galain
2007-10-17, 06:24 AM
Desorcerify, abjuration, level 5
Range: touch
Target: 1 willing creature
Duration: permanent
Saving throw: none (willing only)

The touched creature permanently loses the ability to cast spontaneous arcane spells, like a sorcerer or bard would. This spell can be undone only by Limited Wish and greater magics. The creature may, through training, replace levels in a spontaneous arcane class with a level in another class, at a rate of one level per week.

Dausuul
2007-10-17, 07:18 AM
Yeah, under the circumstances, I'd just make up a custom spell ritual that requires a willing subject and be done with it. Easier than trying to devise some elaborate method within the existing rules.

I like the desorcerify spell Kurald Galain posted above. Particularly the built-in retraining, which offers a nice "escape hatch" for PC sorcerors who'd rather not play a glorified commoner.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2007-10-17, 07:22 AM
My question is ; how is removing the spellcasting abilty from a sorcerer considered a 'cure'? Expanding on what was said before; a sorcerer without spellcasting is a commoner with a nifty pet.

Riffington
2007-10-17, 07:51 AM
Is it all arcane abilities, or just Sorcery?
If the latter, you need to find some way to purge the dragon's blood from his veins. Something like Galain's spell. I'd change it a bit:
*duration: concentration. Save: Will.
Each round, the sorceror must bleed, and must also save or lose 1 level of a spontaneous casting class. If he successfully saves or has no further levels, the spell ends. Retraining as per Galain's.
If the target of the spell can spontaneously cast spells, he may regain one of his lost levels via a Remove Curse spell. Otherwise, a Limited Wish or greater spell is required.

Belkarseviltwin
2007-10-17, 08:59 AM
It doesn't cure sorcerers, but it gets rid of the problem-
force them to take levels in Wizard. I'm serious.
You have the Government look for people about to manifest sorcerous powers, and take them to train as Wizards. Most of them are caught before they get their first class level, so there's no incentive for them to become sorcerers, as they can already do magic. Even if they're not, they're casting spells anyway, so a few spells cast a different way won't be noticed- especially as their Wizard level far outstrips their Sorcerer level. Of course, all these Wizards then have to work for the government.

Some other ideas: Have there be a common misconception that becoming a Wizard requires some innate ability- which is why the Government looks for people with it.

Possibly work in the Ultimate Magus PrC- designed for Wiz/Sorc multiclass.

Another way to do it would be to take an idea from the Seanchan in Wheel of Time. Have all Sorcerers treated as tools rather than people, using a magic item with a constant Dominate Person effect. They still cast spells, but they have no free will, so they can't do any damage. If you really want to copy the Seanchan, have them only able to be controlled by people with dragon blood whose powers didn't develop.

Alternatively, you could see if any of the d20 L5R books have the Ritual of Forgetting in them...

MrNexx
2007-10-17, 09:08 AM
I think Charisma drain would be the most appropriate, both mechanically and thematically (every former sorcerer loses "something"... they're damaged in a way that means they no longer seem themselves).

Then, depending on the government, they might offer retraining, or, perhaps, put them into a special prestige class which does the job of retraining for them, similar to a paladin -> blackguard transformation.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-10-17, 09:11 AM
Back in 2E the Mage Slayer could "Spell Slay" a spellcaster and cut them off from their source of power. You could treat that as a feat or special and variant of sneak attack similar to the Spell Thief class.

It used to require a level 5 spell one of the best kept secrets of a secret society to "Reattune" them to their power. Carefully worded Limited Wish, Wish or Miracle and possibly Restoration in your game could do the same.

Kaelaroth
2007-10-17, 12:30 PM
Well...


Programmed Amnesia?

Blood Dialysis?

Uber-Death Artifact of Power Draining?

Find the dragon that sired his ancestors and revoke the powers given to him?

Meh. :smallsmile:

Vasdenjas
2007-10-17, 12:45 PM
I agree that Charisma drain would be the most appropriate, but I love the idea of the ritual, and the fact that a Limited Wish will reverse it. This brings into play the BBOG (Big bad opposition guy, cause, is it really evil to hate a totalitarian government?), high level sorcerer who has Limited Wish, and has secretly been re-magic-ing the sorcerers who have shown bitter and hostile feelings to their treatment, in order to create an army to overthrow the oppressors. Which side would the PCs take in this though? The law, or freedom?

mostlyharmful
2007-10-17, 12:49 PM
disjoin an artefact and then fail the will save. I'm sure there are temples that would provide you with an evil artifact they want distroyed if you show them you can cast it and actually want to risk the ire of the gods and a soul level lobotomy

tainsouvra
2007-10-17, 01:13 PM
In 3.5 DnD, how would you go about permanently removing all of a sorceror's magical abilities, if you had his full cooperation? I'd honestly say you're better off just homebrewing a day-long ritual that allows a caster to willingly give up sorcery. There are a lot of cool fluff things that can go with it, but since there's no written rule for it anyway, why not just stick to the basics and make something cool?

goat
2007-10-17, 01:22 PM
I think the problem here is the "willing" bit. How many people will honestly give up their super-powers completely willingly?

Whatever method you use will need some sort of indicator that it's succeeded.

Kaelaroth
2007-10-17, 01:42 PM
I think the problem here is the "willing" bit. How many people will honestly give up their super-powers completely willingly?

In a middle ages DnD environment?

Nearly everyone! You'd be branded as a witch, that weird kid down by the river, the old woman who spends ages talking to her cat. Who wouldn't want to escape from that? Especially in the kind of crazy middle-ages twisted leadership system back then. And remember, just because most adventurers are comfortable doing what they do, lots of people don't want to go out and risk their lives every day. Also, in case someone throws the but everyone knows about magic argument at me, I must say that a lot of people might not know about magic. Just because it is there, doesn't mean people will like it.

Also, it has been said in several sources that dwarves as a race are quite mistrustful of sorcery - it being unnatural, unholy, a crime against Moradin kinda jazz.

Jack_Simth
2007-10-17, 03:52 PM
I agree that Charisma drain would be the most appropriate, but I love the idea of the ritual, and the fact that a Limited Wish will reverse it. This brings into play the BBOG (Big bad opposition guy, cause, is it really evil to hate a totalitarian government?), high level sorcerer who has Limited Wish, and has secretly been re-magic-ing the sorcerers who have shown bitter and hostile feelings to their treatment, in order to create an army to overthrow the oppressors. Which side would the PCs take in this though? The law, or freedom?
So combine the two.

The ritual applies the Charisma drain, which has the mechanical effects (and the Sorcerer gets less powerful during the ritual - perhaps there's actually only one or two required components in the ritual - the rest is just for show so nobody notices the mystically enslaved ghost of the old Sorcerer-King using Draining Touch over and over again while a Wizard with Arcane Sight takes standard actions to examine the subject and signal when the Sorcerer no longer has even cantrips "available for use" as the Arcane Sight spell permits).

Limited Wish removes the effect (duplicates a Cleric's Restoration). Clerics could do it with Restoration directly, but the state-religion clerics can't (their deity forbids that particular use) and all other clerics are hunted down (that Aura class feature makes it easier).

CASTLEMIKE
2007-10-17, 04:01 PM
A variant of Pyschic Reformation would do the trick mechanically for 3.5 making them NPC commoners or experts.

Jasdoif
2007-10-17, 06:29 PM
I was really bored.


Apoarcanisis
Transmutation

Effective Level: 7th
Skill Check: Knowledge (arcana) DC 29, 7 successes
Failure: Reversal; See text
Components: V, S, M, F, B
Casting Time: 70 minutes
Range: Close
Target: One living creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

Apoarcanisis is an incantation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm) developed/discovered by the government of (Wassamattabard) to humanely eliminate powers of sorcery. The (Wassamattabardarians) insist it is only used on willing creatures.

The subject of the incantation sits or lays in the center of a ring made of powdered cold iron, while the caster (does Wassamattabardianish stuff) around a specially enchanted statuette sculpted from cold iron. At the end of the casting time, the subject may make a Will saving throw to negate the effect. The DC of this Will save is 17 + the caster's Cha modifier. If the subject waives or fails this save, it takes 1d6 points of ability damage to its Charisma.

If the subject also has spontaneous arcane casting ability, it loses such. It can no longer cast such spells, and its class spell list no longer includes spells derived from it except those it has from another source (such as wizard or cleric levels). It can no longer make class or feat choices that grant or advance spontaneous arcane casting. It retains spell slots and spells known, but can only use them in the following ways: If the subject is the target of a spontaneous cast arcane spell, it gets a bonus on any save or spell resistance allowed equal to the level of the highest level spell slot that is unexpended.
If the subject is the target of a spell known, it can expend a spell slot of equal or higher level to negate the spell's effect as a free action. Use the level of the spell as known to the subject, even if the spell level is different for whatever is casting the spell.
If a spell known is on the subject's class spell list from another source, the subject can expend its spell slots for the purpose of creating magic items that require the expenditure of the spell.

The effect cannot be dispelled. It takes a limited wish, wish or miracle spell to end the effect. If the effect is so removed, the subject loses all benefits it attained.

Failure
If the incantation fails, either because the caster fails two consecutive skill checks or the creature resists it with a Will save or spell resistance, the effect rebounds on the caster. Additionally, the focus emits a bright flash and then crumbles to dust. Another focus must be made or acquired before attempting the incantation again.

Material Component
A small amount of powdered cold iron, used to trace a circle around the subject.

Focus
A specially enchanted cold iron statuette. The statuette itself is worth 3,000gp prior to its enchantment. Enchanting it is similar to creating a magic item; and requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat, caster level 12th, 12,000gp, 800XP and the dispel magic spell.

Backlash
The caster is exhausted.

Solmage
2007-10-17, 09:21 PM
Charisma drain is ineffectual, all he needs is a magic item of cha +X and voila, the sorcie's back.

I *loved* the idea of the purging of the blood however, but I'd expand it a bit throwing the odd fort-save vs system shock with nasty things happening when failed, perhaps permanently loosing 1D4 cha per failed save.

After the ritual is done, have them become a level 1, and have them need to work their way up from that, but with a reduced exp cost for each new level, say 50% discount. (They know a lot, but need time to learn to do things differently, so no insta-levels on class X, just an easier time getting them)

I would also give them a custom feat once they reach level 1, say 'blood-purged' : The holder of this feat is barred from taking any levels in sorcerer, bard, etc.

gareth
2007-10-17, 10:37 PM
Thanks for the responses. A homebrew ritual looks like the best option.

MrNexx
2007-10-17, 11:46 PM
Charisma drain is ineffectual, all he needs is a magic item of cha +X and voila, the sorcie's back.

Which is why I suggested it in conjunction with retraining.

Yvanehtnioj
2007-10-18, 12:04 AM
You could cut his head off.



You, sir, get my vote for the "Belkar Seal of Approval!"

:smalltongue:

Tempest Fennac
2007-10-18, 01:37 AM
Wouldn't moving to a country with a less oppressive government an option? Also, why do the government was to eliminate Sorcerers, and is there a possibility that they have their own Sorcerer's who are loyal to them who aren't targeted by this campaign?

gareth
2007-10-18, 02:19 AM
The government is a theocracy, and finds spontaneous magic to be theologically troubling. That's the fluff reason. The crunch reason is that the theocracy has all the wizards so their enemies need a monopoly on sorcerors for balance.

Tempest Fennac
2007-10-18, 02:31 AM
Thanks for telling me (I had a feeling that the crunch reason would be something like that). Are there nearby contries where Sorcerers aren't banned? Also, if the options are losing your powers or being locked up forever, doesn't that technically mean that the Sorcerer isn't getting to use free will? (I'm guessing it's different in the game, but under British law, submission, which this sounds like due to the alternative, isn't the same as consent).

gareth
2007-10-18, 03:42 AM
There are regions outside the government's control where sorcerors are tolerated, but I haven't decided how advanced they are. They might not qualify as "countries". Tribes and villages, perhaps. As for the free will issue, all that's required is that they cooperate with the process, for whatever reason. There's some more detail in the Homebrew forum, under "Balancing a Monotheistic Setting".

Khanderas
2007-10-18, 04:48 AM
I donno why some rule/mechanic has to be found.
If the reason is because a goverment feels that sorcerous powers are a menace to society and needs to be supressed without harming/killing the innocent recipient just slap on a ritual / curse / artifact that they use on you to seal off those powers.
Though sure, charisma drain would work quite well, with the loss of confidence of no longer able to fireball things or charm people. I'm just saying, since it is a specific "homebrew" reason dont fear to homebrew the solution so you can adapt the crunch and fluff to your idea instead of you adjusting the crunch and fluff to fit with the rule.

Edit: The Cha drain... wont you get your spellpowers back from buying a +cha boosting item ? Don't seem as a permanent solution (from the goverment point of vew) to me.

Jack_Simth
2007-10-18, 06:29 AM
I donno why some rule/mechanic has to be found.
No reason, other than that it was not posted in the homebrew forum.


If the reason is because a goverment feels that sorcerous powers are a menace to society and needs to be supressed without harming/killing the innocent recipient just slap on a ritual / curse / artifact that they use on you to seal off those powers.
Though sure, charisma drain would work quite well, with the loss of confidence of no longer able to fireball things or charm people. I'm just saying, since it is a specific "homebrew" reason dont fear to homebrew the solution so you can adapt the crunch and fluff to your idea instead of you adjusting the crunch and fluff to fit with the rule.

Edit: The Cha drain... wont you get your spellpowers back from buying a +cha boosting item ? Don't seem as a permanent solution (from the goverment point of vew) to me.
"Willing" merely requires that the cooperate with the ritual. You generally don't want to punish a player into neigh-utter and immediate uselessness simply for not wanting the character to die. Yes, you will get some shadow of your powers back by putting on a sufficient +Charisma item. But consider; the Sorcerer-4 with an 18 Charisma, who has a Glitterdust save DC of 16, charisma drained down to 9 then putting on a +2 Cloak of Charisma (which eats most his wealth by level) can only cast cantrips and 1st level spells - and any first level spells he casts will have a DC of 11. If he makes that a +4 Cloak (well beyond WBL of a 4th level character) he can cast Glitterdust again... barely; save DC 13, and only 3 times per day, rather than the 4 of previous. Additionally, without an actual cure, he'll never excel.

Plus it lets you put in NPC's who found something of a way around it - they cast their spells / got Charisma damaged (which comes back) before being drained at all, so they got to recover much of their power, after being officially cleared of being a Sorcerer....

Falrin
2007-10-18, 07:26 AM
A Gish-like PrC focusing on Arcane Strike.

The Person taking it loses it's spell casting abilities, but goes on a Gish-Like path without the actual casting. He uses his inner Arcane powers to enhance his fighting ability like Ki does for ninja's.



Reformed caster

Prereq:
Cast Spontaneous arcane spells.
Have contact with the appropriate authorities.

HD: d8
Skills: 4+Int

(Fill in appropriate list: Id change it depending on the character taking the PrC, but if you want a fixed list try keeping some Cha based skills in combined with some combat ones. If you keep it fixed have a very broad list: High Dex characters will go a different route then the high Str ones. )

Reformed Caster
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Spells

1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+0| Degenerating Casting, Arcane Strike|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+0| Warrior Training|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1| Bonus Feat|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+1| Arcane Deflection|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+1| Arcane Health |+1 level of existing spellcasting class

6th|
+6|
+5|
+2|
+2| Bonus Feat|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

7th|
+7|
+5|
+2|
+2| Arcane Hunter |+1 level of existing spellcasting class

8th|
+8|
+6|
+2|
+2| Arcane Resistance|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

9th|
+9|
+6|
+3|
+3| Bonus Feat|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

10th|
+10|
+7|
+3|
+3| Arcane Burst|+1 level of existing spellcasting class [/table]



Degenerating Casting
For Every LvL you have in the Reformed Caster PrC you lose your highest LvL Spells.
Ex.
A 5th LvL Sorceror/1st LvL Reformed Caster can only cast 1st LvL Spells. (Highest Spells = 2nd 1 LvL Reformed = max 1st LvL spells.)
A 8Th LvL Sorceror/4th LvL Reformed Caster can only cast Cantrips. ( Highest Spells= 4th LvL 4 LvL Reformed = max Cantrips.)


Arcane Strike
The Reformed Caster Gains the feat Arcane Strike.

Warrior Training
The Reformed Caster Gains Proficiency with all Simple & Martial Weapons and Light, Medium & Heavy Armour.

Bonus Feat
The Reformed Caster can choose a Bonus feat from the Fighters Bonus Feat list.

Arcane Resistance
3 Times a day the Reformed Caster can sacrifice a spell slot before a Save is made. The reformed caster adds the LvL of the scarified slot to his roll.

Arcane Deflection
As a free action the Reformed Caster can sacrifice a spell slot to increase his AC. The reformed caster adds the LvL of the scarified slot to his AC as a Deflection Bonus. This bonus applies until the beginning of the Reformed Casters next turn.

Arcane Health
Whenever a Reformed caster gets in the negative with his HP he can burn some arcane energy to heal. The Reformed Caster can sacrifice a spell slot and gains the LvL of the scarified slot to his HP. He can only do this on his own turn, but under any circumstance.

Arcane Hunter
The Reformed Caster is well known with casting in combat. Whenever a caster tries to cast defensively while threatened by the Reformed Caster, that caster provokes an AoO.

Arcane Burst
The Reformed Caster can channel more power in one ability. He can sacrifice 2 spells every time he uses an ability, but the bonus applied can never exceed his Reformed Caster LvL (=10).

Jack_Simth
2007-10-18, 04:59 PM
No reason, other than that it was not posted in the homebrew forum.
Sorry, I must amend this - there's a second reason:

Putting mechanics on it permits your players to be clever.

A fiat ritual is unavoidable if you're caught in it. You can't prepare to get around it's effects in advance, unless the DM specifically puts it there. With the ritual I outlined above, a Sorcerer could, in theory, arrange to ability damage himself down to the point where he starts losing spell access, then exhaust himself of everything except one of his highest available spell slots. He still registers as having spontaneous spells available; after a single point of ability drain, he no longer has access to it, so the ritual stops. A lot of bed-rest later, the ability damage goes away, and he can recover his spells. He's just got a single point of ability drain to contend with (okay - 1d4 points of ability drain; still) while being officially cleared of being a Sorcerer. If he thereafter simply avoids witnesses seeing him cast metamagic'd spells, he's golden (well, okay - the ability drain still bites... but he's not a glorified commoner while he's looking for a cure).

Edit:
Oh, and Falrin: Action types?

Neon Knight
2007-10-18, 05:04 PM
The government is a theocracy, and finds spontaneous magic to be theologically troubling. That's the fluff reason. The crunch reason is that the theocracy has all the wizards so their enemies need a monopoly on sorcerors for balance.

Just out of curiosity, does this theocracy find clerics of a cause unsettling as well, seeing as how they just spontaneously acquire power?

Tempest Fennac
2007-10-19, 02:20 AM
In the homebrew campaign setting in question, the state's Clerics worship a Lawful Neutral diety. I guess it isn't possibly to get power from other sources if your a Cleric in this world.

Aquillion
2007-10-19, 02:31 AM
I think the problem here is the "willing" bit. How many people will honestly give up their super-powers completely willingly?
Remember, not everyone is a level 20 adventurer with high charisma. Someone who wants a nice cushy government job, or who has been studying for ages to get into the university, or who has finally worked their way up to a full master in the craftsman's guild, then suddenly manifests level 1 Sorcerer abilities?

Yeah, I think they'd give it up pretty quick. The ability to cast "grease" twice a day just isn't as hot as you might think it is, under the circumstances, particularly if you have no desire to adventure.

Tempest Fennac
2007-10-19, 04:50 AM
Could they swap combat-orintated spells for more practical spells such as Unseen Servant/Craftsman, Mount, and Magecraft? ( http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Spells-SorcererWizard.pdf ). Those spells would be useful for a craftsperson who doesn't have any interest in adventuring.