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View Full Version : WotC wants to hear from you!



nickl_2000
2019-10-29, 08:12 AM
In case anyone didn't see it through other sources, Wizards has a new survey to hear from people who play D&D about play and what they are looking for in the future.

https://www.surveygizmo.com/s3/5231853/pas?sglocale=en&src=twitter


*NOTE: I, in no way, work for WOTC or represent WOTC. I just wanted to give those that have a love for certain settings to make it known.
**Note 2: Here is a link to the D&D official twitter page where they asked for the feedback https://twitter.com/Wizards_DnD/status/1188893192281681927?s=20

pming
2019-10-29, 09:01 AM
Hiya!

Done and done! :) Took a while though...about half an hour. So anyone else, just be prepaired for spending some time.

Overall, a decent survey as they at least gave several opportunities to explain stuff in stead of only having check-boxes. I don't think they're going to be happy with me though...bought the Starter Set, PHB, DMG, MM. That's it since 2014. Then again, I did spend $845 this last month and a half picking up just about everything I wanted for Fantasy Grounds II...so there is that. :)

Millstone85
2019-10-29, 09:43 AM
Completed.

I like that you can sometimes pick "other" and write what it is. It let me put Nentir Vale among my favourite campaign settings.

Tawmis
2019-10-29, 12:17 PM
Thanks for pointing out the link! Curious what they do with some of the information.

Luccan
2019-10-29, 12:28 PM
Though I never played 4e, I think it's cool they put Warlord as a favorite class option, since so many people seem to want it. I'm also confused why Goblin was the only Monstrous Race option (without picking Other).

nickl_2000
2019-10-29, 12:29 PM
Thanks for pointing out the link! Curious what they do with some of the information.

I have absolutely no idea. I would assume they use it to figure out what to make and publish next. Here is the link to the official twitter posting, maybe you can glean something useful from it.

https://twitter.com/Wizards_DnD/status/1188893192281681927?s=20

Sir_Solifuge
2019-10-29, 12:52 PM
Thanks for making sure the greater community was aware of this.

Misterwhisper
2019-10-29, 03:11 PM
Filled out and done.

Waterdeep Merch
2019-10-29, 03:38 PM
That was a lot longer than I expected.

It also clued me in that I spend way, way too much money on this hobby. I never sat and ran numbers before.

Waazraath
2019-10-29, 03:41 PM
This is great, thanks for sharing.

Yunru
2019-10-29, 04:19 PM
Though I never played 4e, I think it's cool they put Warlord as a favorite class option

****, I missed that. Now I had to do another, but even then that's gonna skew the odds.

HappyDaze
2019-10-29, 04:19 PM
It's one of those surveys where you answer the same few questions multiple times as they slightly reword them. Pass.

Mark Hall
2019-10-29, 04:21 PM
Old fart chimed in.

Petrocorus
2019-10-29, 04:33 PM
That was a lot longer than I expected.

It also clued me in that I spend way, way too much money on this hobby. I never sat and ran numbers before.

BTW, the form ask if we bought digital copies of the books. But since when digital copies of the books are available to purchase online?

Because i don't spend that much on D&D, and the reason is that i cannot buy PDF.

Tvtyrant
2019-10-29, 04:43 PM
Filled it out. I like that it wasn't particularly leading, unlike some polls.

nickl_2000
2019-10-29, 04:51 PM
BTW, the form ask if we bought digital copies of the books. But since when digital copies of the books are available to purchase online?

Because i don't spend that much on D&D, and the reason is that i cannot buy PDF.

Dndbeyond would be considered a digital copy of the books in their mind.

Seclora
2019-10-29, 05:17 PM
Taken, and I mentioned the Playground too. OotS is one of the things that first brought me into this game.

loki_ragnarock
2019-10-29, 05:26 PM
It was better than the last poll I filled out for them.

Kane0
2019-10-29, 05:28 PM
Done, and gave GitP a shoutout of course.

Xihirli
2019-10-29, 05:52 PM
Done, and gave GitP a shoutout of course.

HFIL yeah! Same here.

Luccan
2019-10-29, 06:12 PM
Done, and gave GitP a shoutout of course.

Yep, it's where I do all my online gaming and most of my online discussion on D&D.

Sigreid
2019-10-29, 07:23 PM
Dndbeyond would be considered a digital copy of the books in their mind.

I have digital copies for Fantasy Grounds.

Zhorn
2019-10-29, 09:03 PM
It also clued me in that I spend way, way too much money on this hobby. I never sat and ran numbers before.
The timing of that question was very misleading for my answer. I've bought several of the module books recently so it looks like I would spend several hundred a year on the hobby, but that projected spending is about to drop considerably as I finish getting the remaining 5e books.

Kane0
2019-10-29, 10:06 PM
Funny thing worth noting, I didn't see AUD as a currency option and had to pick other.

J-H
2019-10-29, 10:08 PM
Done. The timeframe may confuse them as a bit.
2007: Started playing PBP 3.5 occasionally (electronic tabletop)
2016: Started DMing PBP 3.5
Dec 2018: Played 5e for the first time. Played in person for the first time.
June-ish 2019: Started DMing 5e in person.

MarkVIIIMarc
2019-10-29, 10:14 PM
If I had to do it over again I'd use one of the pointless questions to tell them the survey and their rule books could be more simple.

DarknessEternal
2019-10-30, 01:36 AM
The heck is a Blood Hunter?

Terdarius
2019-10-30, 03:04 AM
The timing of that question was very misleading for my answer. I've bought several of the module books recently so it looks like I would spend several hundred a year on the hobby, but that projected spending is about to drop considerably as I finish getting the remaining 5e books.

For me it was the exact opposite. I bought pretty much all 4th edition books (I collected them), but only own 3 of 5e. Since it was in the last 6 months I only filled in 50 Euros...

1Pirate
2019-10-30, 03:17 AM
The heck is a Blood Hunter?

A homebrew class from Critical Role's Matt Mercer. It's received some play testing from at least Mike Mearls and possibly some other people from WotC so it's perceived to have a little more credibility than your average homebrew class.

Zerubbabel
2019-10-30, 03:25 AM
This is a ridiculously long survey...

Mordaedil
2019-10-30, 04:06 AM
This is a ridiculously long survey...

You've never said yes to someone asking if you could fill in a survey that they mail to you, have you? I still remember the 50 pages long document...

Scots Dragon
2019-10-30, 06:14 AM
I answered. I basically don't play D&D 5E and I'm not sure that came across, but eh.

I just hope my emphasising the Forgotten Realms and Baldur's Gate where possible was a hint of 'hey, maybe release a Forgotten Realms campaign setting that covers more than just a quarter of the world map'.

Petrocorus
2019-10-30, 07:54 AM
They really should have let a space for free expression.

There is a space for why we would / wouldn't recommend the game to a new player, and despite marking a 8/10 score on recommendation, i used that space to rant about the ambiguous wording and the lack of PDF release.

And contrary to what they may think, subscribing to DnDBeyond is not the same thing that purchasing the books.

Mordaedil
2019-10-30, 08:09 AM
I would have preferred if physical books came with a code you could put on a site like D&D Beyond and it'd give you digital access to the book as well. And then you could connect Roll20 or Fantasy Grounds to the D&D Beyond account and it'd allow the use of the rules in the game.

That'd be optimal for my use anyway.

EggKookoo
2019-10-30, 08:39 AM
The only thing I didn't really answer was the question about how much I've spent on products. Not that I mind telling them, but I have no freaking idea.

I hope that doesn't degrade the value of my responses...

SirGraystone
2019-10-30, 08:43 AM
Interesting survey, but I'm curious of something if it's a wizards of the coast survey why is it on Gizmo website?

EggKookoo
2019-10-30, 09:01 AM
Interesting survey, but I'm curious of something if it's a wizards of the coast survey why is it on Gizmo website?

They're probably just using them as a service. My company uses Survey Monkey all the time despite employing a fully-staffed web development team.

IsaacsAlterEgo
2019-10-30, 09:05 AM
I just hope picking Warlord as one of my "favorite classes" gives them the hint that they should come out with a 5e version of the warlord.

Sparky McDibben
2019-10-30, 09:17 AM
Does anybody else like messing with surveys just a little bit? For "what social media do you follow us on," I put "Grindr" under the other section. Some poor intern is going to see that and just go, "Wait, we're on Grindr?" Hehehehe....

Max_Killjoy
2019-10-30, 09:20 AM
Filled it out.

I doubt they like my answers.

Imbalance
2019-10-30, 09:27 AM
Does anybody else like messing with surveys just a little bit? For "what social media do you follow us on," I put "Grindr" under the other section. Some poor intern is going to see that and just go, "Wait, we're on Grindr?" Hehehehe....

Yeah, but then I felt bad, so I went back and edited my filled in Other response under hobbies to say "general redneckery" instead of "your mom". I was also disappointed that Heroes of the Lance wasn't a choice among digital versions of the game, so I made sure to put that in.

Waterdeep Merch
2019-10-30, 09:33 AM
Yeah, but then I felt bad, so I went back and edited my filled in Other response under hobbies to say "general redneckery" instead of "your mom". I was also disappointed that Heroes of the Lance wasn't a choice among digital versions of the game, so I made sure to put that in.

...

I blocked that game out of my memory. It was the frustrating game from my childhood, the only one I never really got anywhere with.

Technically, that was the first D&D anything I had ever been exposed to. It's a miracle I ever made it past that.

Lord Torath
2019-10-30, 10:03 AM
This is a ridiculously long survey...You've never worked for a phone survey company, have you? I had a survey that typically took 40-60 minutes to get through, mostly depending on how much TV the respondent watched. People hated that survey (and so did I)!

PhantomSoul
2019-10-30, 10:30 AM
You've never worked for a phone survey company, have you? I had a survey that typically took 40-60 minutes to get through, mostly depending on how much TV the respondent watched. People hated that survey (and so did I)!

Something else being bad/worse doesn't make this better, just like for the by-mail survey response. How many people hung up on you or refused to complete the survey? It's reasonable issue for the WOTC survey too, and that can mean they end up with biased or otherwise bad data.

GooeyChewie
2019-10-30, 11:21 AM
Responded. Got to put Spellfire in the “other games you play currently” question. Felt old.

jaappleton
2019-10-30, 11:57 AM
Interesting that they have the Warlord listed as a possible favorite class.

I think there's been a few attempts at kinda getting that 'feel', with oddly enough the Order Domain doing it the best, but nothing has really captured it.

I'd be interested in seeing it come back for 5E. Anyone else remember the 'Lazylord' builds from 4E?

I picked it just to show interest.

Jophiel
2019-10-30, 12:06 PM
The timing of that question was very misleading for my answer. I've bought several of the module books recently so it looks like I would spend several hundred a year on the hobby, but that projected spending is about to drop considerably as I finish getting the remaining 5e books.
I had the opposite -- I haven't bought many 5e products lately (does a lightly used copy of Volos from Half-Price Books count?) but had three $50ish Kickstarters for 3rd party stuff come up in that time. So it looks as though I spend a fortune on 3rd party stuff and nothing on official products.

Also gave GITP a shout-out (I don't post much but read regularly) and was surprised to not see the old SSI Gold Box games listed as an option when asked which digital D&D games you've played.

Joe the Rat
2019-10-30, 12:24 PM
Interesting survey, but I'm curious of something if it's a wizards of the coast survey why is it on Gizmo website?As I work for a company that uses sourced survey tools, Quality control, data management, data security, and baked in reporting options. Why rebuild the wheel?


Does anybody else like messing with surveys just a little bit? For "what social media do you follow us on," I put "Grindr" under the other section. Some poor intern is going to see that and just go, "Wait, we're on Grindr?" Hehehehe....As I do surveys for a living... Okay, this one amuses me.



Also gave GITP a shout-out (I don't post much but read regularly) and was surprised to not see the old SSI Gold Box games listed as an option when asked which digital D&D games you've played.Same here. On all points.

Did anyone else have Mutant: Year Zero on their other games list? That seemed seriously random compared to all the PC games on the list. Maybe a random shuffle of options?

Mark Hall
2019-10-30, 01:24 PM
Funny thing worth noting, I didn't see AUD as a currency option and had to pick other.

Australia doesn't exist, I keep telling you!

Sigreid
2019-10-30, 01:43 PM
Responded. Got to put Spellfire in the “other games you play currently” question. Felt old.

I did not enter Star Frontiers. That's old.

Petrocorus
2019-10-30, 02:29 PM
Australia doesn't exist, I keep telling you!

WTF do you mean? Of course Austria exists! It's right there on the other side of the Alps.

T.G. Oskar
2019-10-30, 03:09 PM
Filled it yesterday, on my phone, before going to my weekly game. It's pretty surprising to see their choices for games you play(ed): you get your expected RPGs, both Western and Japanese, in big chunks (as in, have you ever played one of the 15+ Final Fantasy games?), but other choices I'd feel would fit aren't there (what about Civ? Age of Empires, IIRC, is there), and others make little sense to me other than they're popular (like, say...Destiny?)

Also: no Shifter between the races? There's Changelings, Warforged and even Aasimar, but no Shifters. After Aasimars and Dwarves, they're one of my favorite races (alongside Humans and Githzerai).


Interesting that they have the Warlord listed as a possible favorite class.

I think there's been a few attempts at kinda getting that 'feel', with oddly enough the Order Domain doing it the best, but nothing has really captured it.

I'd be interested in seeing it come back for 5E. Anyone else remember the 'Lazylord' builds from 4E?

I picked it just to show interest.

Me too. Though I would prefer to call it "Marshal" rather than "Warlord" (one suggests a military officer, the other a mercenary leader), I'd still like to see how they work with a purely martial "leader" class, one that provides buffs without the need of magic. (I mean, there could be a Tactician class that works by casting spells to alter the terrain and blast enemies and protect and buff allies, but for the most part, it'd be much like the Eldritch Knight for the Fighter.) Thing is, Warlord/Marshal is in that thin line where it only barely approaches the class design paradigm: every class has to have a set of subclasses that are distinct from each other, and the class itself shouldn't work better as a subclass of another (hence, why no Swashbuckler or Samurai or Favored Soul or Avenger as its own class, instead being a Rogue, Fighter, Sorcerer or Paladin subclass). You could imagine variants of Warlords/Marshals that fit different ways of leadership (through strategy, through magic, through fear, through inspiration), but the difficulty would be to define what each of those classes has in common - mostly the reason why the Mystic was basically scrapped, since even though it should be easy to port, the devs still can't deal with its core concept.

However, if people show off enough interest, it may see a resurgence. I feel the Incarnate (and Incarnum as a system) could also see a resurgence, though you'd need to justify what you can do with it.

Kane0
2019-10-30, 03:55 PM
Me too. Though I would prefer to call it "Marshal" rather than "Warlord" (one suggests a military officer, the other a mercenary leader), I'd still like to see how they work with a purely martial "leader" class, one that provides buffs without the need of magic. (I mean, there could be a Tactician class that works by casting spells to alter the terrain and blast enemies and protect and buff allies, but for the most part, it'd be much like the Eldritch Knight for the Fighter.) Thing is, Warlord/Marshal is in that thin line where it only barely approaches the class design paradigm: every class has to have a set of subclasses that are distinct from each other, and the class itself shouldn't work better as a subclass of another (hence, why no Swashbuckler or Samurai or Favored Soul or Avenger as its own class, instead being a Rogue, Fighter, Sorcerer or Paladin subclass). You could imagine variants of Warlords/Marshals that fit different ways of leadership (through strategy, through magic, through fear, through inspiration), but the difficulty would be to define what each of those classes has in common - mostly the reason why the Mystic was basically scrapped, since even though it should be easy to port, the devs still can't deal with its core concept.


Perhaps merge concepts so it's more than a one trick pony? Like how bards aren't just performers.
Perhaps if runes or truespeech or incarnum became a new system a warlord-esque class would fit into it, and if you wanted purely non-magical (in the fighter and rogue sense) options make those subclasses of existing classes.

Zevox
2019-10-30, 04:04 PM
They really should have let a space for free expression.
Yeah, I kept waiting for that, and was surprised when I finished without getting it at the end. I was hoping to express how what I'd most like to see in the near-ish future is proper 5e Psionics. I suppose marking "Mystic/Psion" as one of my favorite classes will have to do there, though it's potentially misleading since I'm actually not totally happy with the UA "Mystic" in its existing incarnation for a variety of reasons.

noob
2019-10-30, 04:08 PM
Perhaps merge concepts so it's more than a one trick pony? Like how bards aren't just performers.
Perhaps if runes or truespeech or incarnum became a new system a warlord-esque class would fit into it, and if you wanted purely non-magical (in the fighter and rogue sense) options make those subclasses of existing classes.
like "I shouted your name right and very hard so you got to perform well" (truenaming warlord)?

Seclora
2019-10-30, 05:59 PM
like "I shouted your name right and very hard so you got to perform well" (truenaming warlord)?

Wait, a subclass that lets me fulfill my dream of being a supporting character or love interest in a Shonen Anime?

Yeah, I could go for this!

Kane0
2019-10-30, 06:03 PM
Yeah, that's basically Truespeech I suppose. It's the Command and Power Word X spells taken and expanded into a language.

Max_Killjoy
2019-10-30, 06:12 PM
I am surprised they asked more about video games than about other TTRPGs... not sure I like the implications of that.

gooddragon1
2019-10-30, 06:24 PM
"Creating my own custom classes/races/NPCs/monsters/spells/artifacts." == Extremely Important

I like homebrewing.

That was a long survey. Just like others said. But it's worth it.

I mentioned that my chief issue with 5e was bounded accuracy (you shouldn't rely so heavily on a system to enforce balance, pick your own and have the players and DM work together to make it happen imo) and mother may I skills (since you can't know what DCs you need to hit to do anything at all when you're building your character).

EDIT: Forgot to tell them to not simplify classes and content too much. Restricts possibilities in homebrewing and just in general. Imo.

Next endeavor... make an attempt at homebrewing the crimson curse for 3.5 (maybe mummy rot removal template...)

Yunru
2019-10-30, 06:55 PM
I am surprised they asked more about video games than about other TTRPGs... not sure I like the implications of that.
I'm actually glad they do.
Other games, especially video games, are an easy wellspring of concepts.
I know I developed my Tinker Ranger entirely while on a Horizon: Zero Dawn high.

Max_Killjoy
2019-10-30, 06:59 PM
"Creating my own custom classes/races/NPCs/monsters/spells/artifacts." == Extremely Important

I like homebrewing.

That was a long survey. Just like others said. But it's worth it.

I mentioned that my chief issue with 5e was bounded accuracy (you shouldn't rely so heavily on a system to enforce balance, pick your own and have the players and DM work together to make it happen imo) and mother may I skills (since you can't know what DCs you need to hit to do anything at all when you're building your character).

EDIT: Forgot to tell them to not simplify classes and content too much. Restricts possibilities in homebrewing and just in general. Imo.

Next endeavor... make an attempt at homebrewing the crimson curse for 3.5 (maybe mummy rot removal template...)

On the last question, I included "vague and anemic Skill mechanics" on my list of reasons.

GreyBlack
2019-10-31, 08:37 AM
I answered. I basically don't play D&D 5E and I'm not sure that came across, but eh.

I just hope my emphasising the Forgotten Realms and Baldur's Gate where possible was a hint of 'hey, maybe release a Forgotten Realms campaign setting that covers more than just a quarter of the world map'.

Ironically, I thought there's been too much emphasis on Forgotten Realms and would love to see Spelljammer, Birthright, etc. I'm really hoping that came across in my survey lol

nickl_2000
2019-10-31, 08:59 AM
Weirdest answer from me in my survey that I finally took

Q: What introduced you to D&D:
A: Other, I found 1e player's handbook at a church rummage sale

Petrocorus
2019-10-31, 09:00 AM
Ironically, I thought there's been too much emphasis on Forgotten Realms and would love to see Spelljammer, Birthright, etc. I'm really hoping that came across in my survey lol

Though i totally agree, since FR is really not my favorite one, i'd like to point out how paradoxical this is in this edition.

We had a huge emphasis on FR and every campaign beside ToYP (if we can call it a campaign) and Saltmarsh has been set in FR. Sometimes with plot elements not easily portable to other setting.

And yet, we still haven't got the full description of the setting and people who want to play outside of the North have to refer to older edition books, which are obsolete because of all what happened in the setting between 3.5 and 4E and then 4E and 5E.

Yunru
2019-10-31, 09:02 AM
I was annoyed there was no "who hasn't heard of D&D" option for how you got introduced to it.

Sparky McDibben
2019-10-31, 09:19 AM
I was annoyed there was no "who hasn't heard of D&D" option for how you got introduced to it.

This is objectively an awesome answer.

Mark Hall
2019-10-31, 01:12 PM
I was annoyed there was no "who hasn't heard of D&D" option for how you got introduced to it.

They also didn't include "The cartoon in the 80s" as an answer, which I feel is a mistake.

Joe the Rat
2019-10-31, 02:56 PM
They also didn't include "The cartoon in the 80s" as an answer, which I feel is a mistake.
I suspect they didn't have our a demographic group in mind writing this.

Jophiel
2019-10-31, 03:05 PM
I suspect they didn't have our a demographic group in mind writing this.
Well, they did include BECMI and 1st edition when asking how you started.

I missed my chance to tell them I learned of D&D from the Hollywood movie!

Scots Dragon
2019-10-31, 03:21 PM
And yet, we still haven't got the full description of the setting and people who want to play outside of the North have to refer to older edition books, which are obsolete because of all what happened in the setting between 3.5 and 4E and then 4E and 5E.

Exactly this.

Even several very basic questions like;
What's Halruaa like now after a century in another world?
Ditto nations like Nimbral and Lantan.
Is Aglarond still ruled by the Simbarchs?
What's the current state of Cormyr and the Dalelands?
What's the state of the nations that were sunken in the Chultan Peninsula and in the Shining South, like Luiren and Var the Golden (or is it still 'Var the Drowned')?
How is Calimshan adjusting after the overthrow of the genies and genasi?
What are the newly-refounded Unther and Mulhorand like?
Is the Shaar recovering from the devastation and being turned into a desert?
What's the proportion of leftover Shadovar settlements to the reclamation of Anauroch by the Bedine?
What did the worshippers of all the returned gods do in the meanwhile?

And these are really only scratching the surface. For all its having been 'overly focused on' in this edition, they really have not wanted to do much actual exploration of the Forgotten Realms and they're really just treating it like another Nentir Vale, barely detailing anything outside of some bare essentials of where they want to set adventures.

Lord Torath
2019-10-31, 03:50 PM
So... as an Old Grognard (git off my xeriscaping, ya dang whippersnappers!) who has no plans to move on from 2nd Edition (I know the rules and I have all the books) should I even bother responding?

I mean, I kind of want to give them my opinions, but I'm not sure I'll buy anything even if follow my suggestions (and how likely is that, really?). And if they do return to, say, Dark Sun, will they just ruin it like TSR did with the Prism Pentad? I've got fixes for most of the things in Spelljammer that bug me (Except the titular Spelljammer itself. Haven't really figured out a fix for it yet). Why would I want WotC sticking their Ornery Oars in?

On the other hand, I'd love to give OotS a shout-out.

So... thoughts?

Mark Hall
2019-10-31, 03:57 PM
The Mod Ogre: Thinking about it, I'm moving this to General.

Luccan
2019-10-31, 04:49 PM
Exactly this.

Even several very basic questions like;
What's Halruaa like now after a century in another world?
Ditto nations like Nimbral and Lantan.
Is Aglarond still ruled by the Simbarchs?
What's the current state of Cormyr and the Dalelands?
What's the state of the nations that were sunken in the Chultan Peninsula and in the Shining South, like Luiren and Var the Golden (or is it still 'Var the Drowned')?
How is Calimshan adjusting after the overthrow of the genies and genasi?
What are the newly-refounded Unther and Mulhorand like?
Is the Shaar recovering from the devastation and being turned into a desert?
What's the proportion of leftover Shadovar settlements to the reclamation of Anauroch by the Bedine?
What did the worshippers of all the returned gods do in the meanwhile?

And these are really only scratching the surface. For all its having been 'overly focused on' in this edition, they really have not wanted to do much actual exploration of the Forgotten Realms and they're really just treating it like another Nentir Vale, barely detailing anything outside of some bare essentials of where they want to set adventures.

If they're going to continue a focus on FR, some more depth would be nice.

Anonymouswizard
2019-10-31, 05:10 PM
On the last question, I included "vague and anemic Skill mechanics" on my list of reasons.

Vestigal Skill System here. I'd rather they just cut it out entirely, they clearly don't want it.


I spent the entire time waiting for that question, 'in the past year how much have you played D&D' just so I could answer 'none' (haha, no such luck). Was really difficult to answer some of the questions, I'd forgotten when I'd bought the Adventures in Middle-earth books. Thankfully it was over six moneth ago, I had a point to get across (you haven't sold me on this edition).

I am glad though that I got to point out that I don't recommend D&D to new players because I tend to find other games fit their requirements better. I felt like that was an important thing for somebody unimportant to have to discard.

Coventry
2019-10-31, 05:17 PM
So... as an Old Grognard (git off my xeriscaping, ya dang whippersnappers!) who has no plans to move on from 2nd Edition (I know the rules and I have all the books) should I even bother responding?

I mean, I kind of want to give them my opinions, but I'm not sure I'll buy anything even if follow my suggestions (and how likely is that, really?). And if they do return to, say, Dark Sun, will they just ruin it like TSR did with the Prism Pentad? I've got fixes for most of the things in Spelljammer that bug me (Except the titular Spelljammer itself. Haven't really figured out a fix for it yet). Why would I want WotC sticking their Ornery Oars in?

On the other hand, I'd love to give OotS a shout-out.

So... thoughts?

No way to be sure what they will do with the information, but anyone that reads my response will know that I stopped giving WotC money when they abandoned 3.5 for 4 ... and that I've probably done the same with Paizo's recent change.

"How much do you spend on 5th edition books - $0, 5th edition modules - $0, 5th edition et cetera - $0, non-5th edition miniatures - $bunches"

(added in edit:) Might make them realize that they have an untapped market. So, speaking as a fellow grognard, I thought it was worth taking the time to answer.

Scots Dragon
2019-10-31, 05:52 PM
If they're going to continue a focus on FR, some more depth would be nice.

Hell, anything beyond the surface level stuff they've given us so far.

This is the current state of what's been covered;

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/430159062903029765/639597127600832518/unknown.png

Rather a lot missing, I should say. And not everything on the maps from 5E actually has been covered.

Tvtyrant
2019-10-31, 06:06 PM
Hell, anything beyond the surface level stuff they've given us so far.

This is the current state of what's been covered;

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/430159062903029765/639597127600832518/unknown.png

Rather a lot missing, I should say. And not everything on the maps from 5E actually has been covered.

I would be cool with them simply reprinting the old books' fluff. Al-Qadim doesn't need much of an update, and the old art was gorgeous.

Petrocorus
2019-10-31, 07:09 PM
And these are really only scratching the surface. For all its having been 'overly focused on' in this edition, they really have not wanted to do much actual exploration of the Forgotten Realms and they're really just treating it like another Nentir Vale, barely detailing anything outside of some bare essentials of where they want to set adventures.
This is one thing that bugs me in this edition. The writer can be very good at some things, but also very bad at some other things.
But the things they are bad at are really things they have no reason to be bad at. Like properly detailing the settings, or fixing those of the rules that need fixing (there are not so many). Some times it just looks like they just don't care about what is not their personal interest.

I mean, seriously, they needed more than a year to publish the first setting and it's not yet completed despite the emphasis on it in campaigns and AL.
They waited 4 years to publish another setting, and that was one not that many D&D players cared about.
They don't want to officially fix the Ranger, the Berserker, the Pact of the Blade, some feats like Lucky, some other stuffs that are TOH too good but, instead publish alternatives.
Their behaviour just bugs me.



Rather a lot missing, I should say. And not everything on the maps from 5E actually has been covered.

I was going to say exactly this when i saw the map.

Nice map, BTW.


I would be cool with them simply reprinting the old books' fluff. Al-Qadim doesn't need much of an update, and the old art was gorgeous.

Oh yeah. Al-Qadim and Kara-Tur.
I'd really like to see the Sha'Ir too.
And i do want to try Spelljammer.

Luccan
2019-10-31, 07:15 PM
This is one thing that bugs me in this edition. The writer can be very good at some things, but also very bad at some other things.
But the things they are bad at are really things they have no reason to be bad at. Like properly detailing the settings, or fixing those of the rules that need fixing (there are not so many). Some times it just looks like they just don't care about what is not their personal interest.

I mean, seriously, they needed more than a year to publish the first setting and it's not yet completed despite the emphasis on it in campaigns and AL.
They waited 4 years to publish another setting, and that was one not that many D&D players cared about.
They don't want to officially fix the Ranger, the Berserker, the Pact of the Blade, some feats like Lucky, some other stuffs that are TOH too good but, instead publish alternatives.
Their behaviour just bugs me.



I was going to say exactly this when i saw the map.

Nice map, BTW.



Oh yeah. Al-Qadim and Kara-Tur.
I'd really like to see the Sha'Ir too.
And i do want to try Spelljammer.

Their reluctance to publish even errata is definitely an issue.

Spelljammer does require actual rules for the titular vehicles, at the very least, but I don't think there are any actual mechanical differences for Al-Qadim and Kara-Tur

Tvtyrant
2019-10-31, 07:38 PM
Their reluctance to publish even errata is definitely an issue.

Spelljammer does require actual rules for the titular vehicles, at the very least, but I don't think there are any actual mechanical differences for Al-Qadim and Kara-Tur

Mmm, Spelljammer. By far my favorite setting, and one of the few places the old Leadership feat fit the game perfectly (how else do you get a crew?) I had the hardest time finding players to try that one, apparently it was too nerdy.

Max_Killjoy
2019-10-31, 08:27 PM
I would be cool with them simply reprinting the old books' fluff. Al-Qadim doesn't need much of an update, and the old art was gorgeous.

Whatever the question was about favorite setting or supplement or whatever, I clicked "other" and put Al Qadim in the text.

Petrocorus
2019-10-31, 08:55 PM
Their reluctance to publish even errata is definitely an issue.

Spelljammer does require actual rules for the titular vehicles, at the very least, but I don't think there are any actual mechanical differences for Al-Qadim and Kara-Tur

It still requires updated books for the setting, given they are parts of Toril and probably has changed in the last two edition.

Rule-wise, we don't need much, i believe, but some stuff should logically be new subclasses. The Sha'ir's fluff really looks like a Warlock subclass.

Luccan
2019-10-31, 09:21 PM
It still requires updated books for the setting, given they are parts of Toril and probably has changed in the last two edition.

Rule-wise, we don't need much, i believe, but some stuff should logically be new subclasses. The Sha'ir's fluff really looks like a Warlock subclass.

Oh, yeah, I meant in a more general sense. They've done some vehicle stuff, I just don't how well that transfers over to a Spelljammer. You can probably get away with one or two new subclasses at most for the other settings. We're no longer in an age where you need a significantly different mechanical package for each alteration in character concept (especially for warriors).

AdAstra
2019-10-31, 10:00 PM
How large is the DnD design team these days? I've seen an estimate of 25 full-time people, and that was during development. Plenty of freelancers/contractors in addition to that, but overall that is a really small team overall. The amount of content output starts to make a lot more sense with that in mind.

Xanathar's Guide to Everything's credits list 7 designers (1 developer is included here), 4 editors (Jeremy Crawford being both a lead designer and managing editor), ~40 illustrators, 6 project management and production services, and 8 "other D&D team members" (not sure if they worked on the book or what their jobs are). Plus playtesters. Most of the illustrators are freelance, to my understanding, and a good number of people who do writing for D&D are either freelance or not permanently attached to the team.

weckar
2019-10-31, 10:31 PM
Surprised to see Dimension20 was not listed among the Streams/Casts. I thought those guys were gaining some serious traction. Too new, maybe?

It was a bit awkward having to basically skip a lot of questions, but it least it actually let you do that.

Luccan
2019-11-01, 12:49 AM
Surprised to see Dimension20 was not listed among the Streams/Casts. I thought those guys were gaining some serious traction. Too new, maybe?

It was a bit awkward having to basically skip a lot of questions, but it least it actually let you do that.

I think the only one mentioned that I was actually familiar with was Critical Roll. I'd heard of some of the others (just heard of, mind you, I don't actually know anything about their styles, player numbers, etc.), but there was at least three that I'd never heard of. Meanwhile at least one I thought might be there wasn't mentioned. I assume the streams needed really big numbers to be included, but again I hadn't heard of a few of them.

Scots Dragon
2019-11-01, 05:31 AM
I would be cool with them simply reprinting the old books' fluff. Al-Qadim doesn't need much of an update, and the old art was gorgeous.
The main problem is that Al-Qadim is technically part of the Forgotten Realms, taking place on the continent of Zakhara to the south, and this is even mentioned in the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide. It would therefore also have been affected by the Spellplague and the time skip.

The latter being kind of an issue, because I'm not sure how many D&D fans who aren't Forgotten Realms fans really realise it; the cumulative timeskip means that it has been an approximate hundred and twenty years since the era where the D&D 3E material was set.

D&D 3E was set in 1371-1374 DR. We are currently at 1492 DR. And for large swathes of the Forgotten Realms, we know almost nothing.

It's really more Forgotten Realm. Wizards of the Coast seems to be under the assumption that there's only one of them.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/430159062903029765/639599497378398228/unknown.png


This is one thing that bugs me in this edition. The writer can be very good at some things, but also very bad at some other things.
But the things they are bad at are really things they have no reason to be bad at. Like properly detailing the settings, or fixing those of the rules that need fixing (there are not so many). Some times it just looks like they just don't care about what is not their personal interest.

I mean, seriously, they needed more than a year to publish the first setting and it's not yet completed despite the emphasis on it in campaigns and AL.
They waited 4 years to publish another setting, and that was one not that many D&D players cared about.
They don't want to officially fix the Ranger, the Berserker, the Pact of the Blade, some feats like Lucky, some other stuffs that are TOH too good but, instead publish alternatives.
Their behaviour just bugs me.

Not to mention that their release schedule is so anaemic you could mistake it for someone who's spent too long in Barovia. I'm pretty sure Pathfinder 2E's starting to catch up with them in terms of rulebooks and sourcebooks and it's been out for like two months.

Wizards of the Coast just doesn't seem interested in doing much with Dungeons & Dragons.


I was going to say exactly this when i saw the map.

Nice map, BTW.

The main map is the Karen Wynn Fonstad 2E version that's floating around, and you can find the full version here (https://i.warosu.org/data/tg/img/0426/62/1442924061955.jpg).

A slightly more inaccurate version, mostly 'cause the scaling's off (but it's somewhat more readable) can be found here (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/wd_maps/FRposterLarge_150.jpg).

Lord Torath
2019-11-01, 07:49 AM
Mmm, Spelljammer. By far my favorite setting, and one of the few places the old Leadership feat fit the game perfectly (how else do you get a crew?) I had the hardest time finding players to try that one, apparently it was too nerdy.So... want to try getting a game going on Roll20? I'd love to play me some Spelljammer!

Edit: Okay, I'll go ahead and fill out the survey.

patchyman
2019-11-01, 10:04 AM
No way to be sure what they will do with the information, but anyone that reads my response will know that I stopped giving WotC money when they abandoned 3.5 for 4 ... and that I've probably done the same with Paizo's recent change.

"How much do you spend on 5th edition books - $0, 5th edition modules - $0, 5th edition et cetera - $0, non-5th edition miniatures - $bunches"

(added in edit:) Might make them realize that they have an untapped market. So, speaking as a fellow grognard, I thought it was worth taking the time to answer.

I’m not sure they will draw the conclusion you want them to. I am a big fan of 5e, but I also put 0$ to those questions because I just haven’t bought any new sourcebooks in the past 6 months.

Scots Dragon
2019-11-01, 10:10 AM
I’m not sure they will draw the conclusion you want them to. I am a big fan of 5e, but I also put 0$ to those questions because I just haven’t bought any new sourcebooks in the past 6 months.

In the past six months they've only released three books.

One of them is the Acquisitions Incorporated sourcebook that almost nobody cares about except fans of Acquisitions Incorporated. I am not one of them.

Two of them are adventures; Ghosts of Saltmarsh, and Baldur's Gate: Descent Into Avernus.


That's not exactly an especially busy release schedule.

Anonymouswizard
2019-11-01, 12:17 PM
Not to mention that their release schedule is so anaemic you could mistake it for someone who's spent too long in Barovia. I'm pretty sure Pathfinder 2E's starting to catch up with them in terms of rulebooks and sourcebooks and it's been out for like two months.

Wizards of the Coast just doesn't seem interested in doing much with Dungeons & Dragons.

Yep, their output is similar to many smaller companies who'll release a couple of books for thdir systems every year, and sometimes less. Nobody wants the 3.5 or 4e mess, but a setting or crunch book every 4-6 months would be nice.

I've jumped ship to games I see getting actual support, or ones designed as limited runs, or old games with extensive back catalogs. I should really check out PF2.

Tvtyrant
2019-11-01, 01:47 PM
So... want to try getting a game going on Roll20? I'd love to play me some Spelljammer!

Edit: Okay, I'll go ahead and fill out the survey.

I have never played D&D on the Internet (darn you D&D online for making that sentence longer.) I'm willing to give it a shot though. Is Roll20 free?

Petrocorus
2019-11-01, 03:11 PM
Yep, their output is similar to many smaller companies who'll release a couple of books for thdir systems every year, and sometimes less. Nobody wants the 3.5 or 4e mess, but a setting or crunch book every 4-6 months would be nice.


Yep, 3E published like a hundred books in 8 years. I think 3.5 got like 70 or 80 books in 5 years.

For 5E, we've got 26 books in 5 years, i think.
13 of them are campaigns. Including a re-edition.
3 core rulebooks.
3 starter sets.
3 setting books (SCAG, Ravnica, Eberron).
4 rules supplements. Xana, Volo, Mord, and AI (that not a lot of people care about).

So yeah, i believe we're clearly in the opposite extreme.

Lord Torath
2019-11-01, 03:40 PM
I have never played D&D on the Internet (darn you D&D online for making that sentence longer.) I'm willing to give it a shot though. Is Roll20 free?Yes (https://roll20.net/), but you can pay extra for extra features like special lighting control. I've never paid, so I can't tell you just what all the "Pro" features are.

I typically hang out in The Inn of the Welcome Wench (https://app.roll20.net/campaigns/details/372978/inn-of-the-welcome-wench-roll-20-ad-and-d-2-e-hang-out-and-meet-up-group-a-place-for-1-and-2-edition-players-to-gather).

Tvtyrant
2019-11-01, 04:50 PM
Yes (https://roll20.net/), but you can pay extra for extra features like special lighting control. I've never paid, so I can't tell you just what all the "Pro" features are.

I typically hang out in The Inn of the Welcome Wench (https://app.roll20.net/campaigns/details/372978/inn-of-the-welcome-wench-roll-20-ad-and-d-2-e-hang-out-and-meet-up-group-a-place-for-1-and-2-edition-players-to-gather).

Sounds fun :)

So an I DMing or are you?

Anonymouswizard
2019-11-01, 07:01 PM
Yep, 3E published like a hundred books in 8 years. I think 3.5 got like 70 or 80 books in 5 years.

For 5E, we've got 26 books in 5 years, i think.
13 of them are campaigns. Including a re-edition.
3 core rulebooks.
3 starter sets.
3 setting books (SCAG, Ravnica, Eberron).
4 rules supplements. Xana, Volo, Mord, and AI (that not a lot of people care about).

So yeah, i believe we're clearly in the opposite extreme.

So 12 'adventure' books, the 'core rulebook' (grumble grumble bloody thrre book core), 3 starter boxes, 3 setting books, and 4 supplements? That's a bit higher than I expected on the adventure count, but then again I do still remember when you got multiple adventures a month in Dungeon. It's also a bit lower than I'd expect for setting and supplement books, as I said I'd expect them to be released about twice a year (even counting the core we're still two short of where I'd expect). It's hideously over the number of starter sets I'd assume, which is one.

But then again, it's pretty well known that WotC currently doesn't care as much about current players as it does about attracting new players, hence three starter sets but a lack of support for fan favourite settings (Planescape, Spelljammer, Eberron for most of the run so far, arguably Dark Sun and a couple other 2e settings). I'm honestly shocked that neither Eberron or Planescape got a rerelease early in the line, considering how heavily WotC banked on nostalgia and the fact that I associate those settings heavily with their edition of origin. Maybe I'd still be playing 5e if they'd released a Planescape sourcebook (or had actual tieflings instead of these weird things). Or maybe I'd have still dropped it for other games, I've got a lot on my shelf and 4e kind of killed the D&D mystique for me (I didn't even move into Pathfinder, just stuck with 3.5 before I moved to other systems almost entirely shortly before 5e came out).

J-H
2019-11-01, 07:23 PM
The settings are great, but everyone (including me) I've seen at the FLGS runs homebrew settings. We run homebrew adventures instead of bought adventures (mostly).

So...what is there to buy? More splatbooks, Races of X? The designers have had a good approach (I think) in limited the number of splats and classes. There's room for maybe one more Xanathar's type book, with a few subclasses and a new compendium of additional magic items. Other than that, what is there to add?

Dienekes
2019-11-01, 07:37 PM
Perhaps merge concepts so it's more than a one trick pony? Like how bards aren't just performers.
Perhaps if runes or truespeech or incarnum became a new system a warlord-esque class would fit into it, and if you wanted purely non-magical (in the fighter and rogue sense) options make those subclasses of existing classes.

Man I hope they don’t do that. Personally I can really easily think of about 4 different command style subclasses off the top of my head that would be really distinct, without resorting to magic.

Anyway. Took the quiz. Basically told them to add warlord more varied and interesting mundane combat that isn’t just “play battlemaster” already.

Tvtyrant
2019-11-01, 07:41 PM
Man I hope they don’t do that. Personally I can really easily think of about 4 different command style subclasses off the top of my head that would be really distinct, without resorting to magic.

Anyway. Took the quiz. Basically told them to add warlord more varied and interesting mundane combat that isn’t just “play battlemaster” already.

I was just thinking about how with the right feats in 3.5 you could make enemies cower at-will using intimidate checks none-magically, and some other abilities from skill tricks and feats like Dark Speech that basically do control effects without any magic. 4E had Thanes and Warlords who screamed allies into formations or enemies out of them, 5E stepped back in that regard.

Bartmanhomer
2019-11-01, 07:57 PM
I'm done with the survey. :smile:

Coventry
2019-11-02, 08:54 AM
I’m not sure they will draw the conclusion you want them to. I am a big fan of 5e, but I also put 0$ to those questions because I just haven’t bought any new sourcebooks in the past 6 months.

I believe that you are probably right about this. But if I had not answered, they have even less of a chance of knowing.

If nothing else, I added my words to everyone else who has plugged giantitp.com into the "Other" category regarding where I get my information about their products.

Anonymouswizard
2019-11-02, 11:45 AM
The settings are great, but everyone (including me) I've seen at the FLGS runs homebrew settings. We run homebrew adventures instead of bought adventures (mostly).

So...what is there to buy? More splatbooks, Races of X? The designers have had a good approach (I think) in limited the number of splats and classes. There's room for maybe one more Xanathar's type book, with a few subclasses and a new compendium of additional magic items. Other than that, what is there to add?

Setting books, more magic systems (psionics, incarnum, binding, etc.), an entire book on mundane equipment and the technological background of D&D. I'm incredibly interested in that last one, the X-Tech books in GURPS are some of the most interesting ones they've published.

You could also get books diving deep into setting elements. Imagine a book going into religions and worship and how different models affect the setting. Or, fancy this, thru could release a 5e Modern book about roleplaying in our world, and an Urban Arcana book about mixing D&D classes and creatures with 5eM ones.


I was just thinking about how with the right feats in 3.5 you could make enemies cower at-will using intimidate checks none-magically, and some other abilities from skill tricks and feats like Dark Speech that basically do control effects without any magic. 4E had Thanes and Warlords who screamed allies into formations or enemies out of them, 5E stepped back in that regard.

5e seems to have cut back on nonmagical coolness seemingly to please those who want nonmagical characters to do nothing that a 'normal person' can do. It's a shame, D&D was getting better the more it edged into 'everybody is super'.

Netbrian
2019-11-02, 12:29 PM
But then again, it's pretty well known that WotC currently doesn't care as much about current players as it does about attracting new players, hence three starter sets but a lack of support for fan favourite settings (Planescape, Spelljammer, Eberron for most of the run so far, arguably Dark Sun and a couple other 2e settings).

I absolutely adore Planescape, and would love to see more support for it, but I'm not sure this is really true -- you need to be careful about conflating "existing players" versus "people regularly posting about D&D on the internet." You meet plenty of people that have played the game forever, but are not particularly interested in keeping up with new material.

I do agree with people that would like more errata/balance updates.

Scots Dragon
2019-11-02, 04:08 PM
I absolutely adore Planescape, and would love to see more support for it, but I'm not sure this is really true -- you need to be careful about conflating "existing players" versus "people regularly posting about D&D on the internet." You meet plenty of people that have played the game forever, but are not particularly interested in keeping up with new material.

The mild flaw with that is that to keep up with new material, we need new material to keep up with.

Outside of a few very small areas, there hasn't been any.

Hell, even as a Forgotten Realms player I have literally no reason to use current material because there's so much missing from the setting as a whole that I'm left wondering what there is to actually really work with.

We haven't even got detailed information on Amn and Athkatla, which were pretty damn central to the most beloved game series of all time, and which is getting a follow-up from Larian Studios soon.

Millstone85
2019-11-02, 05:18 PM
We haven't even got detailed information on Amn and Athkatla, which were pretty damn central to the most beloved game series of all time, and which is getting a follow-up from Larian Studios soon.I really wonder how the new game is going to deal with Bhaal being alive in 5e. Eh, remember Gorion's Ward, the one who slightly delayed the resurrection of the Lord of Murder?

Scots Dragon
2019-11-02, 05:22 PM
I really wonder how the new game is going to deal with Bhaal being alive in 5e. Eh, remember Gorion's Ward, the one who slightly delayed the resurrection of the Lord of Murder?

Considering that wasn't the actual plot of the games, especially given that one of the endings was literally to become the new Bhaal a century early, I think it'll do fine.

The games were about dealing with the Bhaalspawn Crisis. Which the player did. Anything Bhaal-related that comes a full century after that is irrelevant.

jdizzlean
2019-11-03, 12:12 AM
Done, and gave GitP a shoutout of course.

done and done.

a lot of emphasis on 5th edition though not the same questions on older systems :(

Millstone85
2019-11-03, 04:57 AM
The games were about dealing with the Bhaalspawn Crisis.And what did that entail? Surviving it, sure. Stopping several villains who would use Bhaal's essence to one end or another, certainly. But the final showdown at the heart of the god's abyssal realm, the epic conclusion to the saga, had the protagonist either:

become the new Lord or Lady of Murder.
become a benevolent deity (I am guessing of mourning).
relinquish the power for it to be locked away on Celestia.

All of which will now be severely undermined by old Bhaal having popped back up at some point between BG2 and BG3.

And yes, I know the 5e canon lines up more with the novelization, but I sure hope the new game won't.

Lord Torath
2019-11-03, 08:52 AM
Sounds fun :)

So an I DMing or are you?
Mmm, Spelljammer. By far my favorite setting, and one of the few places the old Leadership feat fit the game perfectly (how else do you get a crew?) I had the hardest time finding players to try that one, apparently it was too nerdy.I was hoping you'd DM. I do most of the DMing in my current group, and I like to play occasionally.

My Roll20 tag is Maarken, FYI

Petrocorus
2019-11-03, 06:39 PM
The settings are great, but everyone (including me) I've seen at the FLGS runs homebrew settings. We run homebrew adventures instead of bought adventures (mostly).

So...what is there to buy? More splatbooks, Races of X? The designers have had a good approach (I think) in limited the number of splats and classes. There's room for maybe one more Xanathar's type book, with a few subclasses and a new compendium of additional magic items. Other than that, what is there to add?

I would like exactly this.
I hope for and expansion of the maneuver mechanism. Maybe a Ranger subclasses with maneuvers.
I do want the psionics, and if possible with two classes. Trying to fit the psion archetype and the psychic warrior archetype in one class is making things wonky.
And maybe a better set of rules on creating or buying magic items for those who do want it. Even the Xanathar version is lacking.

But more importantly, i would like revisions and fixes for what is clearly broken, one way or another. I want an official (and good) revision for the core Ranger, and a few other stuffs.
They have 5 years of experience with the game now, all the feedbacks from AL, the feedbacks from UA, the feedbacks from SA replies, and they can look at all the talks on internet forums, including their own.
They should know by now what needs to be fixed and what can be the fixes, but they still don't do this.



We haven't even got detailed information on Amn and Athkatla, which were pretty damn central to the most beloved game series of all time, and which is getting a follow-up from Larian Studios soon.
Are you talking about the Baldur's Gate serie?




But then again, it's pretty well known that WotC currently doesn't care as much about current players as it does about attracting new players, hence three starter sets but a lack of support for fan favourite settings (Planescape, Spelljammer, Eberron for most of the run so far, arguably Dark Sun and a couple other 2e settings).
Attracting new player is cool, but once they're attracted and star playing, you need to keep them playing.

Leon
2019-11-04, 04:26 AM
I do like a good survey.

Max_Killjoy
2019-11-04, 07:45 AM
But then again, it's pretty well known that WotC currently doesn't care as much about current players as it does about attracting new players, hence three starter sets but a lack of support for fan favourite settings (Planescape, Spelljammer, Eberron for most of the run so far, arguably Dark Sun and a couple other 2e settings). I'm honestly shocked that neither Eberron or Planescape got a rerelease early in the line, considering how heavily WotC banked on nostalgia and the fact that I associate those settings heavily with their edition of origin. Maybe I'd still be playing 5e if they'd released a Planescape sourcebook (or had actual tieflings instead of these weird things).

This obsession with the customers they don't have at the cost of disregard for the customers they already have has been the ruin of many a video game franchise. Shame to see it pop up in TTRPGs as well.

Interesting that they asked about video games more than other RPGs in the survey.

Imbalance
2019-11-04, 08:38 AM
This obsession with the customers they don't have at the cost of disregard for the customers they already have has been the ruin of many a video game franchise. Shame to see it pop up in TTRPGs as well.

Despite what loyal fans may believe, no company survives - much less grows - without attracting fresh clients. HeroClix, for example, seems to have found that magic rate where their new customer influx overcomes turnover, much to my chagrin. It's a lesson from collectible games that WotC would have learned well from Magic. D&D has fundamentally been a collectible rules game, but is also a licensing juggernaut for companies that make accessory products like dice and minis. What you say about other games is not wrong, but the recent surge in popularity and profitability are sure signs that D&D has got it right.

Max_Killjoy
2019-11-04, 08:57 AM
Despite what loyal fans may believe, no company survives - much less grows - without attracting fresh clients. HeroClix, for example, seems to have found that magic rate where their new customer influx overcomes turnover, much to my chagrin. It's a lesson from collectible games that WotC would have learned well from Magic. D&D has fundamentally been a collectible rules game, but is also a licensing juggernaut for companies that make accessory products like dice and minis. What you say about other games is not wrong, but the recent surge in popularity and profitability are sure signs that D&D has got it right.

There's a difference between trying to attract new customers, and doing so with blatant disregard for existing customers. I don't know if the latter is actually what's going on at WOTC/Hasbor, but it IS what's gone on with a lot of video games over the years.

Anonymouswizard
2019-11-04, 10:51 AM
This obsession with the customers they don't have at the cost of disregard for the customers they already have has been the ruin of many a video game franchise. Shame to see it pop up in TTRPGs as well.

To be fair I see the logic, IIRC something like 80-90% of rules-based sales for 3.X and 4e were copies of the core rulebooks, it just means that those of us who do buy sourcebooks are spending our money elsewhere.

To be honest if Cubicle 7 weren't doing Adventures in Middle-earth I probably wouldn't be paying any attention to 5e. As it I hear about male releases months after the fact, and they're rarely anything I want to buy (and almost always out of my price range for new books).


Interesting that they asked about video games more than other RPGs in the survey.

My suspicion is that WotC doesn't really feel that their dominance of the RPG market is in danger. And honestly, considering it's the only TTRPG that my FLGS has visible from the door, and only it and it's derivatives get to reside on the ground floor I'm inclined to believe them.

I suspect this is partially to do with BG3 as well. Considering how varied the gameplay in Divinity has been (anybody remember the actual Divinity 2? Or Divine Divinity for that matter? Very different gameplay to the Original Sin games) I wouldn't be surprised if Larian get asked to retool it if the data suggests their fans prefer TES to more classic D&D computer games.

Scots Dragon
2019-11-04, 07:47 PM
Are you talking about the Baldur's Gate serie?

Yes. Baldur's Gate is one of the most beloved game series of all time, and pretty much everyone agrees that the best part is Shadows of Amn, which takes place in... uh... Amn.

Tvtyrant
2019-11-04, 08:03 PM
I was hoping you'd DM. I do most of the DMing in my current group, and I like to play occasionally.

My Roll20 tag is Maarken, FYI

I'm also a perma-DM. I haven't played in like 4 years :(

I'll think about it, I don't have a campaign in mind right now.

Millstone85
2019-11-05, 08:26 AM
I am surprised they already closed the poll.

Scots Dragon
2019-11-05, 10:59 AM
I am surprised they already closed the poll.

Too many people saying, correctly, that Mike Mearls should be fired, probably.

Luccan
2019-11-05, 12:23 PM
Too many people saying, correctly, that Mike Mearls should be fired, probably.

You're the first person I've heard/seen bring it up in months, so I kind of doubt that.

Willie the Duck
2019-11-05, 12:35 PM
I am surprised they already closed the poll.

One week is not a bad timeframe. Voluntary internet polls have a decided drop off of responses, and leaving things open too long invites really weird data effects in the last 10-20% of the data collected. I'm hoping they had a predetermined window and stuck with it.

Scots Dragon
2019-11-05, 02:39 PM
You're the first person I've heard/seen bring it up in months, so I kind of doubt that.

I've seen it brought up multiple times elsewhere.

And yes, Mike Mearls should be fired.

Luccan
2019-11-05, 03:28 PM
I've seen it brought up multiple times elsewhere.

And yes, Mike Mearls should be fired.

Fair enough.

I'm not getting into a debate about whether Mearls should be fired (please note I didn't comment on that, just said I hadn't really seen him brought up in that context for some time). I still doubt it's the reason they closed the poll, though, unless there was some concentrated effort to put it into the fill-in areas.

Petrocorus
2019-11-05, 10:42 PM
I've seen it brought up multiple times elsewhere.

And yes, Mike Mearls should be fired.

Could you develop this statement?
I'm quite curious actually, since i don't really pay attention on who is doing what at WotC.

And what about Crawford?

Scots Dragon
2019-11-06, 06:59 AM
Could you develop this statement?
I'm quite curious actually, since i don't really pay attention on who is doing what at WotC.

Long story short, Mike Mearls is friends with and has colluded with a notorious harasser and stalker called Zak Sabbath. When complaints about Zak S being credited in the Player's Handbook were raised to Wizards of the Coast, Mike Mearls actually leaked those complaints to Zak S and opened the complainants up to further abuse and stalking.

It has literally nothing to do with Mike Mearls the game designer and everything to do with Mike Mearls the terrible human being.

There are many people who absolutely refuse to purchase Dungeons & Dragons products until he's gone from it, and I do not blame them whatsoever.


And what about Crawford?

I have no idea. As far as I know nobody has mentioned him as being part of this specific mess so closely, and have directed it entirely at Mearls.

Lord Haart
2019-11-06, 07:35 AM
Long story short, Mike Mearls is friends with and has colluded with a notorious harasser and stalker called Zak Sabbath. When complaints about Zak S being credited in the Player's Handbook were raised to Wizards of the Coast, Mike Mearls actually leaked those complaints to Zak S and opened the complainants up to further abuse and stalking.
I'm sorry, what have I missed? I spare no love for Mike Mearls and believe he's dragging D&D down, but, excuse me, what?

Since when being a harasser and stalker should disqualify a person for being credited for his/her work?

And since when is standing by your friend a crime?

And even if it is, it is only tangentially related to Mearls' work on D&D products. Punish it by the law or don't, but what does firing the guy have to do with his non-work related ethics? Is being "Mike Mearls the terrible human being" now something that plays into the relationship between Mike Mearls the designer, and the company that hired a designer and (supposedly) sees no trouble with his expertise as such?

Max_Killjoy
2019-11-06, 07:50 AM
So, about that survey...

Did anyone else answer it and realize that you might not be their target customer?

Petrocorus
2019-11-06, 07:54 AM
Long story......whatsoever.

I did not heard about that.
Just looked into it.



I have no idea. As far as I know nobody has mentioned him as being part of this specific mess so closely, and have directed it entirely at Mearls.
I though it was about game design or publishing policy, and since Crawford is heavily criticised by some for his SA and other stuffs, so i though some could have ask for his firing too.

Ventruenox
2019-11-06, 09:38 AM
Mödley Crüe: I don't recall the Mearls drama being on the survey. Let's not sidetrack the thread, please.

Willie the Duck
2019-11-06, 09:45 AM
So, about that survey...

Did anyone else answer it and realize that you might not be their target customer?

The survey is for people who might buy further 5e D&D or non-edition specific D&D merchandise (be it dice or computer games). Beyond that, was there anything specific that surprised you?

Lord Torath
2019-11-06, 10:42 AM
So, about that survey...

Did anyone else answer it and realize that you might not be their target customer?I figured that out before hand. Took it anyway. :smallwink:

Telok
2019-11-06, 11:08 AM
I figured that out before hand. Took it anyway. :smallwink:

Ditto.

There's a strong assumption in the survey that the people taking it currently, or within the last couple months, play and buy 5e.

If they can't figure out that there are people taking the survey who like and care about D&D, but don't like WotC and don't find any benefit in switching from their current systems to 5e... Well, people drawing wrong conclusions from surveys has a long and storied history.

noob
2019-11-06, 12:17 PM
Ditto.

There's a strong assumption in the survey that the people taking it currently, or within the last couple months, play and buy 5e.

If they can't figure out that there are people taking the survey who like and care about D&D, but don't like WotC and don't find any benefit in switching from their current systems to 5e... Well, people drawing wrong conclusions from surveys has a long and storied history.

And surveys that gets tons of random answers due to excessive length or complexity are common.

Max_Killjoy
2019-11-06, 01:23 PM
The survey is for people who might buy further 5e D&D or non-edition specific D&D merchandise (be it dice or computer games). Beyond that, was there anything specific that surprised you?



I figured that out before hand. Took it anyway. :smallwink:



Ditto.

There's a strong assumption in the survey that the people taking it currently, or within the last couple months, play and buy 5e.

If they can't figure out that there are people taking the survey who like and care about D&D, but don't like WotC and don't find any benefit in switching from their current systems to 5e... Well, people drawing wrong conclusions from surveys has a long and storied history.



And surveys that gets tons of random answers due to excessive length or complexity are common.


Yeah, there seemed to be a STRONG presumption that everyone taking it is an active 5e player, and not a player of other editions and/or other systems. It put more time into asking about video games and social media and purchasing habits, than it did about the system itself or other RPGs.

Mark Hall
2019-11-06, 04:21 PM
So, about that survey...

Did anyone else answer it and realize that you might not be their target customer?

Since I haven't spent any money with WotC in about a decade, I knew that going in.

****... how long HAS it been since I spent any money with them? Discounting buying a couple t-shirts at GenCon 2013, it would be... the 4th edition Dark Sun books? 2010 or so?

Lord Torath
2019-11-06, 05:03 PM
Since I haven't spent any money with WotC in about a decade, I knew that going in.

****... how long HAS it been since I spent any money with them? Discounting buying a couple t-shirts at GenCon 2013, it would be... the 4th edition Dark Sun books? 2010 or so?I don't think I've ever spent money on Wizards of the Coast. No, that's not true. Baldur's Gate was WotC, right? Okay, so the last money I gave them was for Baldur's Gate II: Throne of Baal.

Scots Dragon
2019-11-06, 06:55 PM
I don't think I've ever spent money on Wizards of the Coast. No, that's not true. Baldur's Gate was WotC, right? Okay, so the last money I gave them was for Baldur's Gate II: Throne of Baal.

I'm pretty sure we can count that as giving money to Interplay and BioWare first and foremost.

Joe the Rat
2019-11-11, 09:14 PM
I was hoping you'd DM. I do most of the DMing in my current group, and I like to play occasionally.

My Roll20 tag is Maarken, FYI


I'm also a perma-DM. I haven't played in like 4 years :(

I'll think about it, I don't have a campaign in mind right now.
If you guys do get something started, I'd be interested. It was one of those "never got to it" settings back in the day, and I do love me some space-swashbuckling.

Same handle.

BWR
2019-11-12, 04:42 AM
Well, people drawing wrong conclusions from surveys has a long and storied history.

Or if you know what you're doing, getting other people to draw the correct conclusions. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ZZJXw4MTA)