Thrawn vs. Honor Harrington

[Lord Iames Osari]

Inspired by the more general vs. Honor Harrington thread.

The scenario:

Grand Admiral Thrawn is facing off against Fleet Admiral Lady Dame Duchess and Steadholder Honor Harrington, PMV, SG(C) CGM, CM, etc, etc. They have at their respective commands fleets of equal capability and are as familiar with the technical capabilities of their own and each other's fleets as they would be in their home universes - i.e., if they are fighting in SW galaxy, Honor has Star Destroyers and knows what they can do, and vice versa. Neither side has an advantage in terms of what firepower they can bring to bear; this battle will be decided by chance and the tactical skill of the fleet commanders.

Who would win?

[Eita]

I believe you meant
Fleet Admiral Lady Dame Duchess and Steadholder Honor Alexander-Harrington, PMV, CGM, CM, etc, etc.
Spoiler tag for those who have not yet read At All Costs.

Anyways, I'd give this one to Honor. She has a grand tactical scale and would use anything to help her.

[Setra]

Going with Thrawn for lack of knowledge on the other party.

[Lord Iames Osari]

@ Setra: Well, yes, but I didn't want to break up my description with a spoiler box. :smalltongue:

Also, has anyone ever listed out all the awards and honors (no pun intended) Honor has received?

[Swordguy]

Whoa. Now THIS is a good "vs." thread.

My initial read is that Thrawn is better at reading his opponent and anticipating his likely actions, but HH has made a career out of doing totally-off-the-wall stuff that nobody would reasonably or un-reasonably expect to see coming (see especially: Cerberus, Sidemore Station).

HH inspires her crews better, no question, seeing as how Thrawn got killed by a member of his (the Noghri were under his command...). Even if Thrawn has a remarkable advantage in numbers or firepower, HH is all about the death-ride (see also: Basilisk, 2nd Yeltsin, Third Yeltsin, Cerberus). She simply inspires her crews to perform better than anyone else's.

Thrawn is a better grand stategist (which is significantly different than being a good tactician), as HH has never really had to deal with the role (it's always Camparelli and White Haven doing that in the books). I suspect Honor has a bit of tactical edge, but it's by a whisper

IIRC, each has one canon loss. Thrawn to Garm Bel Ibliss (when he drops the 3 dreadnoughts on top of Thrawns ISD) - nothing he can do there. HH loses to the Peeps when they bushwhack McKeon's ship while she's aboard it for her birthday celebration. Nothing she can do there.

This is a toughie.

Let me sleep on it. I suspect it will come down, as you mentioned, to chance. I WANT to lean slightly towards Harrington, but it's like a 55/45 split - hardly decisive. Like I said. Let me sleep on it.

[Lord Iames Osari]

I don't think the Noghri are a good example of Thrawn's ability to inspire loyalty, given how badly they'd been screwed over by the Empire.

[Swordguy]

I don't think the Noghri are a good example of Thrawn's ability to inspire loyalty, given how badly they'd been screwed over by the Empire.

Regardless, they were troops under his command. And his regular personnel seemed more motivated by fear (perhaps at his inhumanity) than love (not romantic, but I can't think of a better word), which Honor regularly gets from hers.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Well, I suppose. But if there was a healthy amount of fear, there was at least as much respect. He was ruthless, but he never showed the vindictive sort of "discipline" that Vader went for.

[Rogue 7]

This is directly mentioned in "The Last Command."- pp. 68-69, after Luke gets away from the Chimaera with some wonky tractor beam-defeating device. Thrawn, who had previously killed a tractor beam technician's CO, asks the Ensign in charge if he could see any mistakes he made- he hadn't, and Thrawn knew this. He promotes the man to lieutenant and asks him to devise a solution to the problem he just faced.
"'Yes Sir' Pellaeon managed.
And stood there beside the newly minted lieutenant, feeling the stunned awe pervading the bridge as he watched Thrawn leave. Yesterday the Chimaera's crew had trusted and respected the Grand Admiral. After today, they would be ready to die for him."
I know he supported an evil empire, but damn, that's a good officer.

I have no idea who Harrington is, but seeing through oddball plans was Thrawn's specialty. See the Rebel attack on Bilbringi, where he was utterly convinced that the Rebels would attack there, despite Pellaeon practically pleading him to reroute forces to Tangrene. The rebels apparently did a really good job of concealing their movements, and it was only Thrawn's insights that convinced him. If Honor ever made any piece of art, she's dead. (How accurate that would really be is questionable, but it makes for a cool story)

[Eita]

She has a holo-picture of a dead lover and a
kid.
Besides that, not much art.

Oh, and Honor=oddball plans.

[Talkkno]

I know he supported an evil empire, but damn, that's a good officer.



"I encounter civilians like you all the time. You believe the Empire is continually plotting to do harm. Let me tell you, your view of the Empire is far too dramatic. The Empire is a government. It keeps billions of beings fed and clothed. Day after day, year after year, on thousands of worlds, people live their lives under Imperial rule without seeing a stormtrooper or hearing a TIE fighter scream overhead."

[Rogue 7]

And on as many thousands, they get shot by the same.:smallsmile: The GE's not as bad as the IOM, but it's still an autocratic, militarily-enforced government.

[The_Snark]

And on as many thousands, they get shot by the same.:smallsmile: The GE's not as bad as the IOM, but it's still an autocratic, militarily-enforced government.

Well, sort of. Thrawn's Empire was still autocratic and militarily enforced, but it lacked a lot of the racism and inherent vindictiveness that it had under the others. The Noghri were set up by Vader and the Emperor; by the time they were given to Thrawn, it wouldn't have been possible to try a different setup, so we're not sure if that's what Thrawn would have done or not.

I don't know the other contestant, so I can't really comment, but note that Thrawn is not at all afraid to retreat if things are going badly, taking whatever insight into the enemy commander he's already gleaned with him to plan his next attack.

[Eita]

Well, sort of. Thrawn's Empire was still autocratic and militarily enforced, but it lacked a lot of the racism and inherent vindictiveness that it had under the others. The Noghri were set up by Vader and the Emperor; by the time they were given to Thrawn, it wouldn't have been possible to try a different setup, so we're not sure if that's what Thrawn would have done or not.

I don't know the other contestant, so I can't really comment, but note that Thrawn is not at all afraid to retreat if things are going badly, taking whatever insight into the enemy commander he's already gleaned with him to plan his next attack.

Honor surrendered to the enemy. She belongs to a fleet where only a handful of ships has surrendered. Ever.

Thank you Edward Saganami.

And after she surrendered, she then went on to orchestrate the largest prison break-out in Human history.

[Lord Iames Osari]

And did we mention that she did minus one eye and an arm?

[Eita]

Yeah. Cybernetic eye and arm.

Also, there's a gun in the arm.

[Rogue 7]

If at any point she's required to use it, Thrawn's won.

[sun_tzu]

I haven't read any Honor book, so I can't really judge, but...
Thrawn is epic when it comes to clever tactics. Epic. If Harrington can actually challenge him (and a lot of people here seem convinced she can), then I'm guessing she must be one hell of a good tactician.

[Eita]

She defeated two fleets that consisted of hundreds of ships with a fraction of their numbers.

Then again, she did have god-tech on her side.

Also, she once destroyed an enemy taskforce with no losses of her own. At all. You know how? She coasted in. No shields. No nothing. *BAM!* Lasers and grasers blew them to kingdom come.

And the enemy wasn't expecting this because they didn't even know she had ships.

[sun_tzu]

She defeated two fleets that consisted of hundreds of ships with a fraction of their numbers.

Then again, she did have god-tech on her side.

Also, she once destroyed an enemy taskforce with no losses of her own. At all. You know how? She coasted in. No shields. No nothing. *BAM!* Lasers and grasers blew them to kingdom come.

And the enemy wasn't expecting this because they didn't even know she had ships.

So...she wins through having game-breaking advantages on her side that nullify her enemies' numerical advantage?
Maybe it's actually far more impressive than it sounds, but so far I'm unconvinced. I was far more impressed by, say, Thrawn's tactic in "Outbound Flight", when he managed to defeat a contingent of jedi masters and a large fleet of slavers by playing them against each other and tricking them into canceling their own advantages.

[Swordguy]

One of her motto's is something to the the effect of "surprise is what happens when you saw something else happening all along."

Example: 2nd Yeltsin. Sitrep: she's on detached duty to a star system that until very recently (like 5 years) didn't have a navy at all - so nobody thinks highly of their navy. She's got a hald-dozen capital ships (superdreadnaughts) plus screening elements. OPFOR has 24 Battleships (2/3rds the mass of an SD each), plus screening elements. She charges out to meet them, while putting out EW (which SW doesn't have, IIRC) to make it look like she's got battlecruisers instead of superdreadnaughts, and using a crappy formation. OPFOR commander thinks he's up against a "death or glory" charge into energy range (400,00km) by the defenders who are too desperate for good tactics...because that's what it looks like to him. He lets them get very near energy range because he "knew" what he was seeing - the navy he's fighting is a bunch of n00bs, remember? And he'd absolutely smash a bunch of "battlecruisers" in energy range that he outnumbered by 6 to 1. He has absolutely no reason to suspect he's fighting SDs (which, if he caught them at extreme range, he'd still wipe out - weight of fire and all that).

They realize it when the SDs are about a million km out and it's too late to avoid energy-range action (a point - HH ships are constrained by actual physics like inertia, they don't maneuver like WWII fighter craft). He's built up enough velocity that he literally cannot build up enough of a side vector to avoid energy range. The SD's wipe out 23 of the 24 BBs, damage the last, and suffer 2 losses of their own. They lose 13 million tons of ships, and wipe out over 120 million tons of OPFOR ships. That's a massive win in anyone's book.

And THAT'S good tactics. It's also semi-realistic, which gives it another point in my book. David Weber (the author of the HH series) doesn't give us bloodless battles - people die, people whom he's built up over many pages, because people do die in a fight. No tactics will avoid that. (Almost - Cerberus was such a complete and utterly atypical battle that it doesn't count - the OPFOR didn't even know they [the prisoners]were THERE or they had ships)

[Afraidofsharpie]

I'm going to have to go with Thrawn, sure he had a few mistakes but the fact of the matter is, he was hands down the best thing the Empire has ever had. He was so good, that the Emperor who was a known xenophobe decided to not only keep him but gave him a position of power that others could only dream about (IIRC, its been awhile since I read the books). Now I have read a few of the HH books (read: 1 or 2), and I do think that it would be several small skirmishes before an actual fight where each would win a couple of the fights that it would finally come out with Thrawn on top.

Also on the case of the Noghri, I believe that if Thrawn had gotten to them before Vader and the Emperor they would have been loyal citizens of the Empire based off the fact that the only thing Thrawn gave a damn about was one's abilities not Race/Species.

[Krrth]

So...she wins through having game-breaking advantages on her side that nullify her enemies' numerical advantage?
Maybe it's actually far more impressive than it sounds, but so far I'm unconvinced. I was far more impressed by, say, Thrawn's tactic in "Outbound Flight", when he managed to defeat a contingent of jedi masters and a large fleet of slavers by playing them against each other and tricking them into canceling their own advantages.

Ehh....as I recall, yes Manticore has better tech. They are also MUCH smaller. In the order of 3 planets fighting several dozen( or more, it's been a while since I read the last book). The tactic in question here involved turning off engines, shields, comm, everything but life support and drifting in ballistacly (sp) into an enemy staging area.

[LordVader]

Yes, Thrawn is excellent at seeing through off-the-wall plans. Try them against him at your peril.

I'd also like to point out in Outbound Flight where
Thrawn wrecks an entire Trade Federation fleet with six ships that should have died easily to a force even a fraction of the size the Trade Federation force was. And he didn't have any fancy tech advantages, he should've been slaughtered. Instead, he used his tactical genius to win.

[Lord Iames Osari]

After thinking about it, I think Honor would win, because however awesome Thrawn is, he's a villain, and Honor is a protagonist. :smalltongue:

More seriously, I think Honor would win. They'd be on fairly even terms for most of the battle, but Thrawn's tendency to think on a strategic level as well as a tactical one would likely induce him to withdraw his forces once he'd taken a certain amount of losses, whereas Honor is pretty much Queen of the Crazed Deathride. It'd be a close thing, though.

[Swordguy]

Yes, Thrawn is excellent at seeing through off-the-wall plans. Try them against him at your peril.

I'd also like to point out in Outbound Flight where
Thrawn wrecks an entire Trade Federation fleet with six ships that should have died easily to a force even a fraction of the size the Trade Federation force was. And he didn't have any fancy tech advantages, he should've been slaughtered. Instead, he used his tactical genius to win.



Hey LV, could we get more data on that engagement? I've seen it referenced a couple of times. It sounds like he's either got a tech advantage, a terrain advantage (fighting in an asteroid field) or it's something like the 1,000,000-to-one shot exemplified by the death star getting waxed by a couple dozen fighters (their guns can't be brought to bear on such small ships, semi-obvious weak spot, etc.)

[Krrth]

I might be misremembering, but I think the whole outbound flight win hinged on disrupting the droid signals. Effectivly, he shut off the entire droid fleet.

[Swordguy]

Wait...the whole OPFOR was a droid fleet? And he shut it down by disrupting command signals?

That's not fleet tactics ("the employment of vessels and fleet assets to achieve a desired end through firepower and maneuver" - naval institute press), that's electronic warfare. And while certainly impressive, it doesn't show one bit how he can handle a fleet in combat.

[Krrth]

I think there was a little bit more to it, but as I recall, that's the main point.

[The_Snark]

Wait...the whole OPFOR was a droid fleet? And he shut it down by disrupting command signals?

That's not fleet tactics ("the employment of vessels and fleet assets to achieve a desired end through firepower and maneuver" - naval institute press), that's electronic warfare. And while certainly impressive, it doesn't show one bit how he can handle a fleet in combat.

The fighters were droids (not the carriers or frigates), but supposedly had failsafe transmitter frequencies; the carriers would switch command frequencies every few seconds or so, so that any disruption would last only a few seconds, and would immediately switch whenever the enemy tried to jam them. He managed to prolong the engagement, and disabled the initial wing of fighters with EMP nets long enough to carry them out of transmitter range.

He also managed to have his fighters maneuver the missiles launched by enemy frigates into the frigate fuel cells via an EMP pulse-like thing, taking advantage of weak spots on the frigates, and then disrupted the fighter control frequencies at the exact moment that they were launching, causing a lot of trouble in the launch bays.

In short, he took advantage of a number of technical weaknesses and tactical flaws on the part of the other fleet... but he'd never even heard of the enemy before, knew nothing about their ships before the engagement, and hadn't ever had any experience with droids or remotely controlled ships, and still managed to exploit those weaknesses. It was fairly impressive.

Again, I don't know anything about Honor Harrington, but from the sound of it it's a pretty close fight.


Thrawn's tendency to think on a strategic level as well as a tactical one would likely induce him to withdraw his forces once he'd taken a certain amount of losses, whereas Honor is pretty much Queen of the Crazed Deathride. It'd be a close thing, though.

Yeah... Thrawn's not much for the Famous Last Stand. That's a point against him, but he'd still get away to try again.

[Foeofthelance]

Honor surrendered to the enemy. She belongs to a fleet where only a handful of ships has surrendered. Ever.

Quick point on that. Yes, she surrendered to an enemy vessel, but she still managed to get the freighters she was escorting to safety before she did so. The only reason she surrendered was because there was literally nothing to gain from dying. Compare this to say...

Basilisk Station- Where she took a light cruiser which had been armed with the single most pointless weapon ever (the grav-lance*) and still managed to take out an enemy battlecruiser, which not only outweighed by a margin of several million tons, but was armed for actual combat.

Grayson- Where she took another pair of cruisers and pitted them against a state of the art battleship. Took the win there.

Grayson- The next battle was where she took unshielded, power-downed ships into the heart of an enemy fleet before firing.

First Sidemore- Took a fleet of converted freighters with experimental weapons and defeated a pirate squadron that was operating with Fleet strength naval craft.

Second Sidemore- Hid half a fleet in hyperspace to sneak attack an enemy fleet, which had been put together specifically to beat her. She took the victory there as well.

There are plenty more battles (I think the only book where she doesn't fight at least one major battle was the one where she dueled Pavel Young). Thrawn, admittedly, was perhaps the most brilliant commander the Empire had, but he suffers from the flaw that he does what's best for Thrawn. He's intelligent, and fights that way. Honor fights for the honor of her Queen, Protector, and countries, and fights with cunning as well as intelligence. Thrawn exploits his enemy's weaknesses, while Honor seeks to make her own advantages as well.

[Eita]

I was counting that particular quote as a good thing.

She had the sense to know that fighting would earn her nothing.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Thrawn, admittedly, was perhaps the most brilliant commander the Empire had, but he suffers from the flaw that he does what's best for Thrawn. He's intelligent, and fights that way. Honor fights for the honor of her Queen, Protector, and countries, and fights with cunning as well as intelligence. Thrawn exploits his enemy's weaknesses, while Honor seeks to make her own advantages as well.

I'm going to disagree with that. Thrawn wasn't just out for himself; his ultimate goal was to unit the galaxy so that he could lead it against the vaguely defined threat mentioned in the Hand of Thrawn duology.

[Foeofthelance]

I'm going to disagree with that. Thrawn wasn't just out for himself; his ultimate goal was to unit the galaxy so that he could lead it against the vaguely defined threat mentioned in the Hand of Thrawn duology.

The plan though is to have the galaxy united under Thrawn. SO as soon as the battle begins to seriously wrack up casualties, as neither commander is the type to tiptoe around battle, Thrawn is going to realize that this increases the chance that the plan will fail. Once that happens he will seek to disengage. Honor, on the other hand, has been ordered to stop trying to get herself killed, an order which has been passed down through the Admiralty, the Protectorship, and from the Queen herself. It's going to be rather obvious that Thrawn is a threat, and she'll do what she deems necessary to stop him. Granted, this is Harrington, so if it becomes a hopeless enough situation for him she'll most likely offer the chance to surrender, and he'd probably take it.

[Rogue 7]

The plan though is to have the galaxy united under Thrawn. SO as soon as the battle begins to seriously wrack up casualties, as neither commander is the type to tiptoe around battle, Thrawn is going to realize that this increases the chance that the plan will fail. Once that happens he will seek to disengage. Honor, on the other hand, has been ordered to stop trying to get herself killed, an order which has been passed down through the Admiralty, the Protectorship, and from the Queen herself. It's going to be rather obvious that Thrawn is a threat, and she'll do what she deems necessary to stop him. Granted, this is Harrington, so if it becomes a hopeless enough situation for him she'll most likely offer the chance to surrender, and he'd probably take it.

Thing about Thrawn is that he's patient. If he's outmatched in one battle, he'll retreat, preserving as much of his forces as he can, and use a different tactic the next time. I don't think it would matter much how long that took him, as long as it worked.

[LordVader]

Wait...the whole OPFOR was a droid fleet? And he shut it down by disrupting command signals?

That's not fleet tactics ("the employment of vessels and fleet assets to achieve a desired end through firepower and maneuver" - naval institute press), that's electronic warfare. And while certainly impressive, it doesn't show one bit how he can handle a fleet in combat.

No, he used fleet tactics as well. And he did not shut them down via electromagnetic warfare right away, he lured them out to a point where he could then shut off their contact, also using fleet tactics there. He also noticed a pattern in the droids' patrols. He then had to take out a large group of Techno Union ships. In another case, he took out an entire NR battlegroup with just a Star Destroyer. Thrawn's definitely good at fleet tactics.

Keep in mind this was all based on vague secondhand advice given to him by a smuggler. Now that's impressive, being able to deduce all that from a less-than-even-rudimentary knowledge of the things.

Also, let me ask you- If Honor charges in, and loses a massive amount of her fleet while inflicting enough casualties on Thrawn to cause him to pull back, who's the true winner there? Honor may have won the battle, but with tactics like that, Thrawn will win the war, as he is very conscious of managing his limited resources.

[Lord Iames Osari]

No, he used fleet tactics as well. And he did not shut them down via electromagnetic warfare right away, he lured them out to a point where he could then shut off their contact, also using fleet tactics there. He also noticed a pattern in the droids' patrols. He then had to take out a large group of Techno Union ships. In another case, he took out an entire NR battlegroup with just a Star Destroyer. Thrawn's definitely good at fleet tactics.

Keep in mind this was all based on vague secondhand advice given to him by a smuggler. Now that's impressive, being able to deduce all that from a less-than-even-rudimentary knowledge of the things.

Also, let me ask you- If Honor charges in, and loses a massive amount of her fleet while inflicting enough casualties on Thrawn to cause him to pull back, who's the true winner there? Honor may have won the battle, but with tactics like that, Thrawn will win the war, as he is very conscious of managing his limited resources.

A good point. I may have overstated myself a bit. Honor is much less prone to simply charge in these days. She simply strikes me as more bloody-mindedly stubborn than Thrawn.

[Eita]

A good point. I may have overstated myself a bit. Honor is much less prone to simply charge in these days. She simply strikes me as more bloody-mindedly stubborn than Thrawn.

Indeed. She will no longer recklessly risk her life, but she will kill you if you piss her off since she's a genie.

[Lord Iames Osari]

What does being a genie have to do with it?

((Note to the uninitiated: In Honorverse, the term "genie" refers to someone whose DNA has been deliberately altered from the human baseline, usually to adapt them to some slightly hostile planetary environment.))

[Eita]

Her particular modifications make her violent.

[Lord Iames Osari]

... Whaaaaaa? Where are you getting that from?

AFAIK, her modifcations are:

Increased density of certain muscle cells, making her stronger then a normal person with equal muscle mass
Increased metabolism
Minor intelligence boost (as in, above average but not supergenius)

And maybe slightly altered skeletal composition, given that the Meyerdahl Beta mod was intended for worlds with slightly heavier grav than Earth.

Nothing that would make her more prone to violence. More capable of violence, yes, but not more prone to it.

[LordVader]

A good point. I may have overstated myself a bit. Honor is much less prone to simply charge in these days. She simply strikes me as more bloody-mindedly stubborn than Thrawn.

Thrawn will still win the war, then. Retreating and saving your ships for another battle, while inflicting superior casualties on the enemy, will win you the war. Driving him away in one battle by taking more losses and refusing to retreat will win the battle, but not the war.

[Foeofthelance]

Her particular modifications make her violent.

He's mistaking her for a Scrag, the genetic supersoldiers the Ukraine worked up in the last war. So far the only deviation from the norm Honor's genetics offer is a resistance to higher gravity worlds, a really powerful metabolism, and a "mindglow" which makes Harrington's more attractive as partners for treecats.

Scrags, on the otherhand, are highly aggressive, with a sort of twisted cunning intelligence on top of it. Scrags generally don't run starfleets though, let alone have romantic relationships. They realy do prefer simply clubbing the otherperson and dragging them back.

Its an easy mistake to make, as the only time her mother ever really discusses Honor's genetics she uses Scrags as an example of why tinkering with intelligence is a bad thing to do. As far as Honor is concerned, her intelligence and charisma are entirely inate.

[LordVader]

I would also submit that Thrawn has much more strategic experience. HH sounds like she's a sound tactical commander, but with only what, 3 systems to worry about, she's not getting much strategic experience.

Meanwhile, Thrawn is running a galaxy-wide war.

[Krrth]

I would also submit that Thrawn has much more strategic experience. HH sounds like she's a sound tactical commander, but with only what, 3 systems to worry about, she's not getting much strategic experience.

Meanwhile, Thrawn is running a galaxy-wide war.
For the most part, so is Honor. They only have three planets in ONE system, plus a few outer mining and scientific colonies. UNfortunatly, they seem to have been tasked with defending a large number of "allies" that can't defend themselves (Greyson is a significant execption. Those guys are putting ships together by HAND, just so they can contribute) The reason they get ships blown out from underneith them on a semi reguler basis is that they are hidously outgunned. The only reason they can even compete is the fact that manticore is the only system known to have multiple wormholes. These wormholes span most of the known galaxy, so the income from trade is significant.

[LordVader]

Just out of curiosity, what is the name of this book series? It sounds very interesting.

[Krrth]

...It starts with On Basalisk Station, then if I remember right, Honor of the Queen, Short Victorius War, Field of Dishonor, Honor amoung Enemies, IN Enemy Hands, Echos of Honor, Ashes of Victory, War of Honor, and At All Costs. There are several more books in the same setting, and it's been about two years or so since the last book, so another is about due. THe author is David Webber. You can get a full list at http://www.baen.com/series_list.asp

[Swordguy]

I would also submit that Thrawn has much more strategic experience. HH sounds like she's a sound tactical commander, but with only what, 3 systems to worry about, she's not getting much strategic experience.

Meanwhile, Thrawn is running a galaxy-wide war.

I'd concede Thrawn's strategic experience as being superior to Honor's, no question. In fact, I'm pretty sure I did earlier in the thread. Honor has never needed to worry about multi-systemeic fleet strategy - she's never been in that position of rank (though it looks like she will be, by dint of sheer attrition, in the next book).

We're seeing Thrawn as the supreme CO of his own forces. Honor has never been that. (Even if she was, she'd have to deal with a political circle opposed to the current war - which Thrawn never has to really deal with.) On the other hand, she's been described as the finest tactician in over 500 years (since Edward Saganami - and she's surpassed him since the comparison was made), in any navy.

[Chronos]

I've never read any of Thrawn's books, but his schtick is analyzing a culture's artwork to gain insight into their tactics, correct? Honor is a master of going against her culture's expectations, doing things which are so crazy that nobody would expect them (and which therefore work). And she's never produced any art herself (the closest she has to that is a half-melted sailplane trophy, which barely survived one of her battles).

The other thing about Honor is that she's an expert at combat on every level. So far in the series, she's managed to win fights to the death using bare hands, superdreadnaught fleets, and everything in between (including swords, chemical-powered duelling pistols, gravitic dart pulsers, scuttling charges, an unarmed space yacht, an armed troop transport, and ships from destroyers on up). She can also transition from one level of weapons to another: The fight that she managed to win without losses, at Cerberus, where the enemy didn't even know she had ships? The reason they didn't know she had ships was that the last any of the enemy saw of her, she was half-starved, half-blind, stripped to prison clothes, and heading for the gallows. That's the starting point from which Honor Harrington is able to build up to a major naval victory.

[Winterwind]

If you wonder what Thrawn is like and what he is capable of, just think Sherlock Holmes. They are very similarly written, both in what they do and in their general demeanor. In fact, I'm willing to bet Zahn had been reading Arthur C. Doyle for inspiration when he was writing that character.

[sun_tzu]

I've never read any of Thrawn's books, but his schtick is analyzing a culture's artwork to gain insight into their tactics, correct?
It's part of it, but I wouldn't call it the core of his abilities. He's managed to completely outmaneuver foes without access to their art, if memory serves - mostly, he's just really, really, really clever.

[Lord Iames Osari]

So, in a one-off tactical situation, Honor would win, but in a more prolonged, strategic conflict, Thrawn would win. Does that sound plausible to most people?

[Swordguy]

So, in a one-off tactical situation, Honor would win, but in a more prolonged, strategic conflict, Thrawn would win. Does that sound plausible to most people?

Without more data on Honor's strategic acumen (since right now there's precisely zero), I'd say that's a fair assessment.

I'd put it in ratios, though. Either person can win in either field, but Honor's more likely to pull off a one-off action (say, 60/40), while Thrawn is more likely to win a prolonged or multi-systemic war (I'd say 75/25 until we get more data on HH).

[Dervag]

Having read none of the Thrawn books and all of the Harrington books, I'd second Swordguy's notion. But I would agree that we don't have real information on how well Harrington could handle strategic fleet command; her commands have so far been on the operational fleet/task force level.


Well, I suppose. But if there was a healthy amount of fear, there was at least as much respect. He was ruthless, but he never showed the vindictive sort of "discipline" that Vader went for.Harrington gets respect too, but she doesn't inspire fear. Instead, she produces intense admiration and 'love' among her command.

Indeed, she can and has inspired to-the-death loyalty, in the literal sense that officers on her command staff deliberately, voluntarily, and without orders (Andreas Venizelos, In Enemy Hands) faced certain death to cover a prison break aimed at getting her out of captivity. Note that Venizelos was not a member of Harrington's personal bodyguard or any such organization with direct personal loyalty to her; he didn't have to do that.


This is directly mentioned in "The Last Command."- pp. 68-69, after Luke gets away from the Chimaera with some wonky tractor beam-defeating device. Thrawn, who had previously killed a tractor beam technician's CO, asks the Ensign in charge if he could see any mistakes he made- he hadn't, and Thrawn knew this. He promotes the man to lieutenant and asks him to devise a solution to the problem he just faced.
"'Yes Sir' Pellaeon managed.
And stood there beside the newly minted lieutenant, feeling the stunned awe pervading the bridge as he watched Thrawn leave. Yesterday the Chimaera's crew had trusted and respected the Grand Admiral. After today, they would be ready to die for him."
I know he supported an evil empire, but damn, that's a good officer.Harrington would have done the same; indeed, her crews would never imagine that she would court-martial a technician who failed due to the application of unexpected enemy technology.


I have no idea who Harrington is, but seeing through oddball plans was Thrawn's specialty. See the Rebel attack on Bilbringi, where he was utterly convinced that the Rebels would attack there, despite Pellaeon practically pleading him to reroute forces to Tangrene. The rebels apparently did a really good job of concealing their movements, and it was only Thrawn's insights that convinced him. If Honor ever made any piece of art, she's dead. (How accurate that would really be is questionable, but it makes for a cool story)Hmm... can't think of any, actually. She's more of a hang-glider than a painter.

Harrington's gift for surprise vs. Thrawn's gift for seeing through surprise might well be a case of the irresistible force meeting the immovable object.


She has a holo-picture of a dead lover and a (spoiler)

Besides that, not much art.Yes, but neither of those are artworks she created. I assume that Thrawn cannot discern a tactician's weaknesses by studying a photograph or hologram of a third party.


Oh, and Honor=oddball plans.However, Harrington's plans generally do not rely on oddballness to succeed. Honor's oddball plans are used either when she has no viable alternative (First Hancock in The Short Victorious War; Second Hades in Echoes of Honor), or to convert a draw into a victory or a victory into total defeat for the enemy (Fourth Yeltsin in Flag in Exile; Second Sidemore in War of Honor)


Honor surrendered to the enemy. She belongs to a fleet where only a handful of ships has surrendered. Ever.

Thank you Edward Saganami.

And after she surrendered, she then went on to orchestrate the largest prison break-out in Human history.She surrendered because:
a)There was no longer any benefit to gain from continued fighting, since the convoy under her escort had already retreated;
b)Her one ship was confronted with several enemy ships of equal power, many of which had a devastating 'first strike' weapon that could easily have killed or crippled her ship as soon as they were allowed in range;
c)Even in addition to these several ships were several more enemy ships in reserve, under the command of one the best tacticians of the enemy fleet;
d)As demonstrated by said tactician's ability to defeat her navy's task force at this star system, a task force with many times her own armament;
e)And there was no possibility of her ship escaping before suffering crippling damage and being utterly defeated, indeed, annihilated.

This is more or less a textbook case of when a commander should surrender.


If at any point she's required to use it, Thrawn's won.Entire books have passed where she has not personally fired a shot in anger. Her capacity for personal mayhem is largely irrelevant to her tactical abilities. It is, however, formidable.


I haven't read any Honor book, so I can't really judge, but...
Thrawn is epic when it comes to clever tactics. Epic. If Harrington can actually challenge him (and a lot of people here seem convinced she can), then I'm guessing she must be one hell of a good tactician.Yes. Yes, she is. Indeed, Harrington's tactical ability is just as much her most remarkable trait as Thrawn's tactical ability is his.


She defeated two fleets that consisted of hundreds of ships with a fraction of their numbers.

Then again, she did have god-tech on her side.Yes. I discount that case because she had a weapon system that allowed her to control missiles in real time as they approached the enemy fleet, while her enemy's command and control loop to missiles approaching her fleet was measured in minutes. It is almost impossible to overstate the magnitude of this advantage.


Also, she once destroyed an enemy taskforce with no losses of her own. At all. You know how? She coasted in. No shields. No nothing. *BAM!* Lasers and grasers blew them to kingdom come.

And the enemy wasn't expecting this because they didn't even know she had ships.Yes, and the reason they didn't know this was because she had been extremely clever and thorough in making sure that no word of her prison breakout escaped the planet, in keeping up an elaborate charade to fool enemy couriers into thinking that everything was fine, and in mousetrapping any enemy warships that entered the system.

On several other occasions she managed much more impressive feats of destroying enemies who knew very well that she was coming, and which often had considerably greater weight of metal than her own.


One of her motto's is something to the the effect of "surprise is what happens when you saw something else happening all along."

Example: 2nd Yeltsin. Sitrep: she's on detached duty to a star system that until very recently (like 5 years) didn't have a navy at all - so nobody thinks highly of their navy.I think you mean 4th Yeltsin. 2nd Yeltsin was about six years before this.


She's got a hald-dozen capital ships (superdreadnaughts) plus screening elements. OPFOR has 24 Battleships (2/3rds the mass of an SD each), plus screening elements. She charges out to meet them, while putting out EW (which SW doesn't have, IIRC) to make it look like she's got battlecruisers instead of superdreadnaughts, and using a crappy formation.On the other hand, Star Wars has cloaking devices, so it's probably a wash.


Yes, Thrawn is excellent at seeing through off-the-wall plans. Try them against him at your peril.

I'd also like to point out in Outbound Flight where
Thrawn wrecks an entire Trade Federation fleet with six ships that should have died easily to a force even a fraction of the size the Trade Federation force was. And he didn't have any fancy tech advantages, he should've been slaughtered. Instead, he used his tactical genius to win.Sorry for opening your spoiler, but I should point out that Swordguy's accurate description of the Fourth Battle of Yeltsin closely matches this. What he forgot to mention was that Harrington's capital ships were all recently captured from the same enemy she was now fighting, and had only just been repaired. Essentially the only decisive ways in which they were significantly superior to the enemy ships was that they were larger (but outnumbered four to one) and better at disguising themselves so that the enemy wouldn't know they were up against large ships and concentrate fire on those large ships.

OK, she also had a powerful first-strike weapon, the same I referenced above talking about the time she surrendered; however, I would argue that this merely made a difference between a decisive victory and a draw, in a battle where simple numbers would have indicated a decisive defeat.


First Sidemore- Took a fleet of converted freighters with experimental weapons and defeated a pirate squadron that was operating with Fleet strength naval craft.Actually, it was only one converted freighter, but then the pirate squadron's "fleet strength" ships were from a third-rate navy and it was one hell of an experimental weapon.


Thing about Thrawn is that he's patient. If he's outmatched in one battle, he'll retreat, preserving as much of his forces as he can, and use a different tactic the next time. I don't think it would matter much how long that took him, as long as it worked.On the other hand, Harrington is an aggressive strategist (see At All Costs for reference) by choice; if she has inflicted serious losses on the enemy fleet she's going to keep chasing him as long as she can hope to do so with any good effect.


Also, let me ask you- If Honor charges in, and loses a massive amount of her fleet while inflicting enough casualties on Thrawn to cause him to pull back, who's the true winner there? Honor may have won the battle, but with tactics like that, Thrawn will win the war, as he is very conscious of managing his limited resources.Charging in isn't her preferred tactic. It's just that her author is mildly sadistic about creating situations where she's anchored to a critical defensive objective and has to fight to the death, or believes she has to fight to the death, against a superior enemy force.

If she's defending a nonessential star system and is outmatched, she would withdraw rather than let her command suffer devastating losses. Likewise when she is outmatched on the offensive.


Her particular modifications make her violent.Aggressive, rather. She's not personally violent except towards her enemies, and is very willing to allow them surrender on generous terms except when they have either committed something generally considered a grave moral offense (repeat-offender war criminals, for instance), or when they have taken extreme acts of personal vendetta against her (see Pavel Young for reference).


Thrawn will still win the war, then. Retreating and saving your ships for another battle, while inflicting superior casualties on the enemy, will win you the war. Driving him away in one battle by taking more losses and refusing to retreat will win the battle, but not the war.Harrington doesn't aim to drive an enemy away by taking heavy losses. When she takes heavy losses it's because circumstances have forced her into action with a much stronger opponent and she cannot retreat. Under normal conditions she is very careful not to expose her command to unnecessary risk.


I would also submit that Thrawn has much more strategic experience. HH sounds like she's a sound tactical commander, but with only what, 3 systems to worry about, she's not getting much strategic experience.

Meanwhile, Thrawn is running a galaxy-wide war.Harrington has only recently been promoted to fleet command, and has only fought two or three campaigns. I have literally no idea what she'd be capable of in a grand-strategic role, but she certainly did very well in the campaigns she has fought in.


I'd concede Thrawn's strategic experience as being superior to Honor's, no question. In fact, I'm pretty sure I did earlier in the thread. Honor has never needed to worry about multi-systemeic fleet strategy - she's never been in that position of rank (though it looks like she will be, by dint of sheer attrition, in the next book).Well, the Cutworm raids in the latest book can arguably be considered multi-system strategy, not very many systems at once.

[Krrth]

WHile reading this, and the various other Honor threads, it dawned on me that we never mentioned one aspect that might influence the battle. Age and experience. While I don't have my books available to check (yea new house. Boo still living out of boxes), prolong could have an effect. After all, Honor is what, 40 or 50? Most of that time on active duty. Thrawn is about the same, I think.

[Krrth]

For those who don't know abiut one or the other of the characters:

(Becareful if you are planning to read the series! SPOILER!!!!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_Harrington
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrawn

[electromagnetic]

If it was SW vs Honorverse, then HH would win hands down as her fleet is superior in both defense and offense. In Honorverse ships then HH would win again, her ability with the ships is outstanding and again if it was SW ships, she would probably win again by her ability for off the wall maneuvers. She'd likely come up with a plan similar to the anti-DS plots in the movies, although less force more plan.

[Eita]

If it was SW vs Honorverse, then HH would win hands down as her fleet is superior in both defense and offense. In Honorverse ships then HH would win again, her ability with the ships is outstanding and again if it was SW ships, she would probably win again by her ability for off the wall maneuvers. She'd likely come up with a plan similar to the anti-DS plots in the movies, although less force more plan.

I'm sorry, but that made me laugh...


At its peak, the Imperial Navy fielded at least tens of thousands of warships

The Empire would win that through numbers alone.

[Dervag]

What is the maximum range of ship weapons in the Star Wars universe?

If we use weapons from early in the Honor Harrington continuity, an Honorverse dreadnought can pelt the enemy with missiles from a few million kilometers away. It can fire hundreds of such missiles, with bomb-pumped laser warheads. When at 'close' range (a few hundred thousand kilometers), it can chime in with laser and gamma-ray laser weapons. Missile ranges increase by roughly a factor of ten by the later part of the series.

I'm not going to worry about the energy levels; my question is the range.

To make matters more awkward for Star Wars ships, Harrington universe ships have a very unusual trait in that they are effectively immune to fire from 'above' and 'below'. On the other hand, they are unshielded from the front and rear, so it's kind of a wash.

The Empire's star destroyers might well be able to overwhelm Honorverse ships, but only if their acceleration and range are sufficient to allow them to close with such ships. And I don't know if that's true.

[Krrth]

I'm fairly certain that the rangers in SW are *much* less than in HH. However, the ships are faster, I believe.

[The Glyphstone]

Definitely an awesome Vs. thread.

I'm really agreeing with the last few posters on a lack of knowledge regarding Honor's strategic skills...though Cutworm and Sanskrit she did plan personally. I've never read the Thrawn books, but they seem quite evenly matched, at least on the space-based battlefield.

The quality of their ships, though - the relative ranges is a very good question indeed...even the Death Star would probably be hurting after a salvo of kinetic missiles sent in from max range and impacting just under lightspeed (a tactic that would be used all the time in the Honorverse if not for the Eridani Edict, a galaxy-wide ban on attacks against inhabited planets by "weapons of mass destruction", and enforced by the ginormungous Solarian League).

[Foeofthelance]

The Empire would win that through numbers alone.

In an 'Verse versus 'Verse? Unlikely. The Haven fleet managed to build six hundred dreadnaughts and superdreadnaughts in four years after losing a war, while most of their planets were occupied. The Manticoran Alliance managed to field half that at the Battle of Manticore, and they only have three planets, and four or five systems to exploit.

So Haven has about 10 planets. Manticore has 5. The Solarian League, home of Old Earth, has over 1,000 with a navy to match. If 15 planets can produce close to a thousand capital ships in four years, how much do you think a system containing 1,000 inhabited planets (And the Solarian League only has major civilized planets. The requirement , I think, was a planetary population of 2 billion to be admitted.) can and has produced? they haven't even been fighting a war, just trading tech. This is a society that considers Manticore and Haven to both be provinical backwaters. They have companies who do nothing but build warships for them, and those companies have built so many that they can "lose" some into the hands of pirates.

This doesn't even count the various private Navies, likes the Mesans, or the nations which haven't really been explored, like the Andermani. Trying to figure the values of their fleets based on Manticore and Haven is like estimating Imperial strength based on the Battle of Hoth.

[Eita]

The Empire just has a grander scale.

HH fleets are in the hundreds (if that).

Imperial fleets are composed of thousands.

[The Glyphstone]

Well, that is again only Manticore/Havenite fleets. We've never seen a Solarian League fleet, in action or otherwise - they could easily number in the thousands.

[Dervag]

I'm fairly certain that the rangers in SW are *much* less than in HH. However, the ships are faster, I believe.They're faster in hyperspace (as in, they can cross interstellar distances in hours or minutes rather than days or weeks). They might or might not be capable of greater acceleration than Honorverse ships, which are limited to, say, 200-600 g. However, they probably aren't faster in an absolute sense, simply because Honorverse military starships are already capable of moving at relativistic speeds. Not that absolute speed matters much compared to acceleration in a space battle.

I very much doubt that Star Wars ships can outrun Honorverse missiles, which accelerate at more like 100000 g.

The biggest difference between the settings is that Honorverse ships have to get very far from a planet before jumping into their version of hyperspace, while Star Wars ships can apparently jump from right out of planetary orbit as far as I can tell.

I'd be tempted to say that the laws of physics in the universe where the battle is fought should be consistent so that both sides have the same FTL capability, although that heavily favors Harrington. On the other hand, leaving things as they are heavily favors Thrawn, because Star Wars ships have much greater strategic maneuverability and (possibly) good tactical maneuverability if they can use jumps to hyperspace in the middle of a battle.


The quality of their ships, though - the relative ranges is a very good question indeed...even the Death Star would probably be hurting after a salvo of kinetic missiles sent in from max range and impacting just under lightspeed (a tactic that would be used all the time in the Honorverse if not for the Eridani Edict, a galaxy-wide ban on attacks against inhabited planets by "weapons of mass destruction", and enforced by the ginormungous Solarian League).More or less what I was getting at. I doubt that kinetic missiles could hit the Death Star, though. It's big enough all right, but it's a maneuvering target and kinetic strikes have to be lined up way in advance. In the Honorverse, kinetic strikes are only effective against static targets such as planets and fortresses.


In an 'Verse versus 'Verse? Unlikely. The Haven fleet managed to build six hundred dreadnaughts and superdreadnaughts in four years after losing a war, while most of their planets were occupied. The Manticoran Alliance managed to field half that at the Battle of Manticore, and they only have three planets, and four or five systems to exploit.The Empire could swamp the RMN unless Manticoran ships were way better than Imperial star destroyers.

The problem is simply that the Star Wars galaxy is entirely settled, so a polity controlling a large fraction of it (like Thrawn's Empire, which was actually bigger than Palpatine's at one point) has orders of magnitude more resources than a star nation in the Honorverse (where not the entire galaxy is settled) can hope to draw on.

However, that has nothing to do with the relative qualities of Thrawn and Harrington as tacticians or strategists. I'd be inclined to set 'all else equal' in this area, again because it offers an overwhelming advantage to Thrawn unless his ships are so utterly inferior to Honorverse ships that one Honorverse ship could blast through hundreds or thousands of times its own tonnage in Star Destroyers.


This is a society that considers Manticore and Haven to both be provinical backwaters. They have companies who do nothing but build warships for them, and those companies have built so many that they can "lose" some into the hands of pirates.The Solarian League isn't really in the habit of building new capital ships; most of what they build are destroyers and cruisers (which are like one tenth to one one hundredth the size of real capital ships in that setting). If anything, their current ability to produce big dreadnoughts is inferior to that of Manticore or Haven.

On the other hand, if they really tooled up they could certainly produce a much more powerful and indeed overwhelming fleet by Honorverse standards But the essential problem is that all of explored space in the Honorverse wouldn't be much more than a province or two to the Galactic Empire. It's the same problem lurking in the corner of Star Trek vs. Star Wars threads.

Whether Harrington could beat Thrawn or vice versa, the Royal Manticoran Navy couldn't beat the Empire without a qualitiative advantage on the order of what the Spanish conquistadors enjoyed in the New World (which effectively let them kill enemy soldiers with total impunity).


Well, that is again only Manticore/Havenite fleets. We've never seen a Solarian League fleet, in action or otherwise - they could easily number in the thousands.The trouble is that most of the League's capital ships are 'mothballed' ships that are centuries out of date and would be useless if Empire technology is on par with current Honorverse technology, just as they would be useless against Harrington's Home Fleet SDs firing missile pods loaded with Apollo-tipped MDMs.

The Honorverse is currently undergoing a Revolution in Military Affairs on par with the one that occured during the Industrial Age on Earth; most Solarian capital ships would have no more chance against a truly modern Honorverse ship, RMN or RHN than the USS Monitor would have of engaging and sinking the USS Nimitz. In effect, they have no capital ship navy, but they could build one from scratch faster than any viable opponent in their universe could hope to conquer them.

[Lord Iames Osari]

However, that has nothing to do with the relative qualities of Thrawn and Harrington as tacticians or strategists. I'd be inclined to set 'all else equal' in this area, again because it offers an overwhelming advantage to Thrawn unless his ships are so utterly inferior to Honorverse ships that one Honorverse ship could blast through hundreds or thousands of times its own tonnage in Star Destroyers.

This is established in my OP:


Grand Admiral Thrawn is facing off against Fleet Admiral Lady Dame Duchess and Steadholder Honor Harrington, PMV, SG(C) CGM, CM, etc, etc. They have at their respective commands fleets of equal capability and are as familiar with the technical capabilities of their own and each other's fleets as they would be in their home universes - i.e., if they are fighting in SW galaxy, Honor has Star Destroyers and knows what they can do, and vice versa. Neither side has an advantage in terms of what firepower they can bring to bear; this battle will be decided by chance and the tactical skill of the fleet commanders.

[Moff Chumley]

Thrawn wins. Simply fighting against a larger force, even a dramaticaly larger force, does not great tactics make. I think it would do all parties concerned a great deal of good to reread the first chapter of Heir to the Empire. Within several minutes, half an hour a most, he defeated a larger battle group completely, with very minimal losses. Because, more or less, he didn't feel like retreating or calling in reinforcements.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Out of curiosity, Moff Chumley, have you read any Honor Harrington novels?

Also, I am amused that you first declare that "fighting a larger force does not good tactics make," and then, as evidence of Thrawn's tactical superiority, provide an example of him defeating a larger force. Which obviously isn't a double standard at all. :smallamused:

[MeklorIlavator]

Also, I am amused that you first declare that "fighting a larger force does not good tactics make," and then, as evidence of Thrawn's tactical superiority, provide an example of him defeating a larger force. Which obviously isn't a double standard at all. :smallamused:

I think Moff means that only fighting a superior force doesn't automatically make one superior, only fighting one and succeeding more than conventional wisdom would expect. Which Honor did, so it doesn't really prove all that much. In fact, Honor's done it a couple times by now(though not by choice or preference), and I can only think of one time Thrawn's done it, so maybe she's tactically better than he is.

[Dervag]

Thrawn wins. Simply fighting against a larger force, even a dramaticaly larger force, does not great tactics make. I think it would do all parties concerned a great deal of good to reread the first chapter of Heir to the Empire. Within several minutes, half an hour a most, he defeated a larger battle group completely, with very minimal losses. Because, more or less, he didn't feel like retreating or calling in reinforcements.What does that prove?

Your argument is that Thrawn is a tactical genius, but Harrington is not, because the fact that Harrington has repeatedly defeated larger forces proves nothing.

That's not a valid argument. First of all, you do not show any evidence of knowing how Harrington won those battles, or how serious the disparity of force was. If so, your claim does not have a sound basis.


I think Moff means that only fighting a superior force doesn't automatically make one superior, only fighting one and succeeding more than conventional wisdom would expect. Which Honor did, so it doesn't really prove all that much. In fact, Honor's done it a couple times by now(though not by choice or preference), and I can only think of one time Thrawn's done it, so maybe she's tactically better than he is.I suspect Thrawn has done it more than once, but I'm not sure how many because I haven't read any Thrawn novels (although this thread has made me want to). I know Harrington has; I can think of at least four occasions on which she has done so and I'm reasonably confident that there was at least one more.

[Swordguy]

I suspect Thrawn has done it more than once, but I'm not sure how many because I haven't read any Thrawn novels (although this thread has made me want to). I know Harrington has; I can think of at least four occasions on which she has done so and I'm reasonably confident that there was at least one more.

It's a lot more than 4...

(Spoilers on important bits - the rest don't have enough detail on them to be real spoilers.)

On Basilisk Station: Light Cruiser (with gutted armament) v 7mton Q-ship
Honor of the Queen: Heavy Cruiser vs Battlecruiser (immediately post-traumatic surgery, like losing an eye and massive tissue trauma)
Short Victorious War: Heavy Cruiser Group vs Battleship group - takes command of CA group after group CO is KIA
Field of Dishonor: none
Flag in Exile: takes 1/3rd of Grayon's Fleet (6 dreadnoughts and support elemtents) v a Battleship fleet (24 BBs plus support elements - a 10-1 tonnage disadvantage) and immediately faces off the second element of that fleet consisting of ANOTHER dozen BBs and support elements
Honor Amoung Enemies: Takes a converted Q-ship v a variety of oppoenents, including 2 heavy cruisers, a destroyer, and a battlecruiser
In Enemy Hands: none of note - Honor is captured by Peeps as described earlier in the thread, but still accomplishes her mission of convoy protection
Echoes of Honor: Captures a fleet of warships using orbital and ground-based weaponry. Then annihilates a followup fleet of at least 3 times her tonnage using crews unfamiliar with their captured equipment...with NO losses.
Ashes of Victory: None that I recall, though she does contribute, in a "elnding strategic advice" sense, while recovering from massive and traumatic injuries suffered in "In Enemy Hands", including the total loss of one arm.
War of Honor: Takes a fleet out to Sidemore Station, where she is attacked by a significantly larger fleet sent specifically to kill her. Destroys this fleet with approximately 20% losses, by tonnage (mostly LACs, which have slightly less survivability than TIE fighters...) while inflicting approximately 80% losses on the enemy (note: enemy was never brought to energy range or they would have been annihilated - no question).
At All Costs: Defends the Manticorn home system from a Peep invasion that outmasses the defending fleets by a significant margin. She's in charge of roughly 1/3rd of the defenders. The other two-thirds NOT under her command are wiped out (inflicting moderate damage on the enemy). She singlehandedly compels the surrender of most of the remainder of the enemy fleet.

[Lord Iames Osari]

To expand on Swordguy's points...


On Basilisk Station: Light Cruiser (with gutted armament) v 7mton Q-ship

For reference, a light cruiser masses only 150,000 tons at most, compared to 7 million tons of purpose-built Q-ship (a warship built from the ground up to mimic the appearance and other characteristics of an unarmed and unarmored merchant ship). Also, in addition to being heavily outmassed, Honor also had very little in the way of conventional long-range weaponry and had to make do with a ship outfitted almost entirely with short-range weapons.



Honor of the Queen: Heavy Cruiser vs Battlecruiser (immediately post-traumatic surgery, like losing an eye and massive tissue trauma)

A heavy cruiser masses from 160,000–350,000 tons, while a battlecruiser-class vessel ranges from 500,000–1,200,000 tons.

Short Victorious War: Heavy Cruiser Group vs Battleship group - takes command of CA group after group CO is KIA
Battleships, on the other hand, range from 2,000,000 to 4,000,000 tons.


Honor Amoung Enemies: Takes a converted Q-ship v a variety of oppoenents, including 2 heavy cruisers, a destroyer, and a battlecruiser
A converted Q-ship is distinct from a purpose-built Q-ship in that a converted Q-ship began life as an actual merchantman and was later modified for military use as a Q-ship. Converted Q-ships are a bit more durable than the merchantmen they once were, but nowhere near as tough as actual warships.

At All Costs: Defends the Manticorn home system from a Peep invasion that outmasses the defending fleets by a significant margin. She's in charge of roughly 1/3rd of the defenders. The other two-thirds NOT under her command are wiped out (inflicting moderate damage on the enemy). She singlehandedly compels the surrender of most of the remainder of the enemy fleet.
The Republic of Haven sent some 300 superdreadnoughts with screening elements to attack the Manticoran home system. This force blew away the Manticoran Home fleet, itself with nearly 100 superdreadnoughts, Third Fleet with an attached squadron from Eighth Fleet (about 50 superdreadnoughts, IIRC. Maybe more, but no more than 75 or so), taking only moderate losses itself. Then, Honor comes in with the rest of Eighth Fleet - about 50 superdreadnoughts here as well, destroys a good third of the remaining Havenite forces, and then forces the two thirds left to surrender unconditionally.

[Swordguy]

Forgot one!

During "On Basilisk Station", Honor uses her gutted Light Cruiser to entirely destroy a fully armed and battle-ready Superdreadnought (7.2 million tons, IIRC), the King William.



Granted, it's during fleet exercises, but still...


Oh, and for those of you not familiar with HH, I reccommend this page:

Honor Harrington Books on the Web (http://www.baen.com/series_list.asp#S1000000001)

It's the entirety of the first 5 or so books, and the first third to half of the rest. It's all legal and done through Baen Books (David Weber's publisher), so don't worry about IP or copyright issues. The HH Series is about half-way down the page.

[Moff Chumley]

What does that prove?

Your argument is that Thrawn is a tactical genius, but Harrington is not, because the fact that Harrington has repeatedly defeated larger forces proves nothing.

That's not a valid argument. First of all, you do not show any evidence of knowing how Harrington won those battles, or how serious the disparity of force was. If so, your claim does not have a sound basis.


I appologize. I have not read any of the HH novels (though thank you, Swordguy, for the link). And, Lord Iames, your right. That was a fairly idiotic example. A better way to phrase my point is "simply defeating larger forces in and of itself does not great tactics make." I recognize that it makes a victory more challenging, but there are plenty of variables outside of the CO in questions power that aply equaly to both parties. Hence, based on evidence presented, I'd say Thrawn and Harrington are a relatively equal match. Can anyone give me the chapters in which Harrington pulls off the aforementioned victories?

Another point worth noting is, because Thrawn is a villian (for the purposes of this conversation), he has a slight advantage. I shall go into detail later.

[Swordguy]

Can anyone give me the chapters in which Harrington pulls off the aforementioned victories?

Another point worth noting is, because Thrawn is a villian (for the purposes of this conversation), he has a slight advantage. I shall go into detail later.

You want CHAPTERS now? :smalltongue:

Erm...they're in the last few chapters of each book (these tend to be climatic encounters). The exceptions are Flag in Exile (last third of the book), Honor Among Enemies (throughout the book), and the aforementioned training exercise, which is in Chapter 3 of On Basilisk Station.

No problem on the link, but I feel I must apologize. When last I checked there (some time ago, seeing as how I own all the books in dead-tree versions), the first 5 books were all there. Unfortunately, only On Basilisk Station is now there in its entirety - the rest of the books are 8-10 Chapter snippets.

Oh, and let me guess. Thrawn's being a villain is an advantage because he has to be written as a bad-ass to present a credible threat to the heroes. Whereas Honor is a protagonist, so her position is weaker so as to make a better story, yes?

[Dervag]

It's a lot more than 4...

(Spoilers on important bits - the rest don't have enough detail on them to be real spoilers.)

On Basilisk Station: Light Cruiser (with gutted armament) v 7mton Q-ship
Honor of the Queen: Heavy Cruiser vs Battlecruiser (immediately post-traumatic surgery, like losing an eye and massive tissue trauma)
Short Victorious War: Heavy Cruiser Group vs Battleship group - takes command of CA group after group CO is KIACounted those three.


Flag in Exile: takes 1/3rd of Grayon's Fleet (6 dreadnoughts and support elemtents) v a Battleship fleet (24 BBs plus support elements - a 10-1 tonnage disadvantage) and immediately faces off the second element of that fleet consisting of ANOTHER dozen BBs and support elementsWasn't sure about the first of those since she did have SDs. Did not count the second, since she never actually fought the second group.


Honor Amoung Enemies: Takes a converted Q-ship v a variety of oppoenents, including 2 heavy cruisers, a destroyer, and a battlecruiserYes, but she had the firepower of an SD(P), so I'm not sure I'd count her as being actually 'outgunned' in any of those engagements, although she could have been destroyed in some of them.


Echoes of Honor: Captures a fleet of warships using orbital and ground-based weaponry. Then annihilates a followup fleet of at least 3 times her tonnage using crews unfamiliar with their captured equipment...with NO losses.Counted that one.


War of Honor: Takes a fleet out to Sidemore Station, where she is attacked by a significantly larger fleet sent specifically to kill her. Destroys this fleet with approximately 20% losses, by tonnage (mostly LACs, which have slightly less survivability than TIE fighters...) while inflicting approximately 80% losses on the enemy (note: enemy was never brought to energy range or they would have been annihilated - no question).She pulled that off in large part because she had reserves they didn't know about; adding the reserves to her strength she had sufficient firepower to stand off the attacker in a straight fight. It might not have been a big victory, but it wasn't overwhelming odds.


At All Costs: Defends the Manticorn home system from a Peep invasion that outmasses the defending fleets by a significant margin. She's in charge of roughly 1/3rd of the defenders. The other two-thirds NOT under her command are wiped out (inflicting moderate damage on the enemy). She singlehandedly compels the surrender of most of the remainder of the enemy fleet.She had a secret weapon again, one that made any one of her capital ships a match for several enemy capital ships. Moreover, virtually all the enemy ships were already severely damaged in battle against the fleets they had defeated before she even arrived on the battlefield. I could have won under those circumstances.


Forgot one!

During "On Basilisk Station", Honor uses her gutted Light Cruiser to entirely destroy a fully armed and battle-ready Superdreadnought (7.2 million tons, IIRC), the King William.Secret weapon again. Once the opfor in the training exercise knew the secret weapon existed, she never scored another kill because the gutting process made her ship completely vulnerable to conventionally armed enemies that could keep out of range of the secret weapon.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Still, Dervag, victory in the face of overwhelming odds is not the only measure of tactical ability. I would count the Battle of Sidemore Station as a good example of Honor's tactical ability. Instead of having her secret reserves out in the open, where the enemy could detect them at range and choose to avoid action, she stationed them, undetectably, in hyperspace, and let the enemy see what she wanted them to see until it was too late. Also, in the battle at Solon, she figured out that they were borrowing her Sidemore tactics.

Oh - and about her Q-ship, I don't think she had the firepower of a SD(P). She had a lot of firepower, yes, but it didn't strike me as being quite that much.

[The_Snark]

Oh, and let me guess. Thrawn's being a villain is an advantage because he has to be written as a bad-ass to present a credible threat to the heroes. Whereas Honor is a protagonist, so her position is weaker so as to make a better story, yes?

Well, not exactly. There are two or three usual reasons that an Imperial is a major threat in Star Wars...

1-2. Overwhelming numbers advantage, such as in the movies. Alternatively, in books after the movies, the Republic often mothballs all its ships, just before another reserve fleet comes out of hiding. A dictatorship would have learned by now, but the New Republic's a democracy, with a lot of species who dislike the idea of a huge, Imperialesque standing military.
3. Superweapons, also demonstrated in the movies.

Thrawn was not threatening for these reasons (although the cloning tanks were arguably a superweapon, they weren't the main threat). He was just plain better than any commander in the New Republic. When he began his campaign, the New Republic was about three times the size of the remaining Imperial territory; by the time of Thrawn's death, they had equal territory.

I'm not sure why being a villain would be an advantage, exactly, but my point is that Thrawn was faced with the situation that a heroic protagonist usually is—a battle against superior forces.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Well, not exactly. There are two or three usual reasons that an Imperial is a major threat in Star Wars...

1-2. Overwhelming numbers advantage, such as in the movies. Alternatively, in books after the movies, the Republic often mothballs all its ships, just before another reserve fleet comes out of hiding. A dictatorship would have learned by now, but the New Republic's a democracy, with a lot of species who dislike the idea of a huge, Imperialesque standing military.
3. Superweapons, also demonstrated in the movies.

Thrawn was not threatening for these reasons (although the cloning tanks were arguably a superweapon, they weren't the main threat). He was just plain better than any commander in the New Republic. When he began his campaign, the New Republic was about three times the size of the remaining Imperial territory; by the time of Thrawn's death, they had equal territory.

I'm not sure why being a villain would be an advantage, exactly, but my point is that Thrawn was faced with the situation that a heroic protagonist usually is—a battle against superior forces.

If you had read my OP, you would know that this thread assumes that Honor and Thrawn have equal forces at their disposal.

[The_Snark]

If you had read my OP, you would know that this thread assumes that Honor and Thrawn have equal forces at their disposal.

I know; I was asking why someone else (Moff Chumley) thought that being a villain would be an advantage, and pointing out that Thrawn didn't share a lot of the typical villain's qualities.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Oh, I misunderstood what you were saying. Sorry.

[Moff Chumley]

Well, I am not hugely informed in tactics and stratagy, and have a loose grip on logic in general, but this is an argument I read somewhere: Villians, at least the majority of the time, choose the time and place of the battle, as villians typically attack. Heroes defend against those attacks, and counterattack. But they couldn't counterattack if they weren't attacked first, correct? So continuing on this train of thought, a villian has the means to almost always attack with a superior force, or in conditions when he has a reasonable chance of victory.

[Swordguy]

Well, I am not hugely informed in tactics and stratagy, and have a loose grip on logic in general, but this is an argument I read somewhere: Villians, at least the majority of the time, choose the time and place of the battle, as villians typically attack. Heroes defend against those attacks, and counterattack. But they couldn't counterattack if they weren't attacked first, correct? So continuing on this train of thought, a villian has the means to almost always attack with a superior force, or in conditions when he has a reasonable chance of victory.

2 Things:

1) This isn't about that. Neither party is labeled as the "villain" of this hypothetical scenario in the OP. It's simply a comparison of tactical skill - protagonist or antagonist depends on a context, and these characters are being deliberately taken OUT of context.

2) HH is all about defeating superior force from an attacker. In fact, the vast majority of those victories listed above are her doing precisely that.

[Moff Chumley]

2 Things:

1) This isn't about that. Neither party is labeled as the "villain" of this hypothetical scenario in the OP. It's simply a comparison of tactical skill - protagonist or antagonist depends on a context, and these characters are being deliberately taken OUT of context.

2) HH is all about defeating superior force from an attacker. In fact, the vast majority of those victories listed above are her doing precisely that.

1):smallfrown:

2) But a few more ships never hurt do they? :smallsmile:

[Mavian]

The entire Honorverse, including spinoffs and anthologies can be read here (http://baencd.thefifthimperium.com/09-AtAllCostsCD/AtAllCostsCD/) completely free of charge, in multiply formats.

And yes this website is 100% legal.

[Lord Iames Osari]

See, if we use your antagonist/protagonist analysis, Moff Chumley, I can just say "Honor wins, because the protagonist always wins in the end".

Also, the number of ships/power of the fleet each has is not debatable. However much firepower or tonnage one has on his or her side, the other has that same amount.

[Swordguy]

The entire Honorverse, including spinoffs and anthologies can be read here (http://baencd.thefifthimperium.com/09-AtAllCostsCD/AtAllCostsCD/) completely free of charge, in multiply formats.

And yes this website is 100% legal.

Excellent. Thank you.

[Dervag]

Still, Dervag, victory in the face of overwhelming odds is not the only measure of tactical ability. I would count the Battle of Sidemore Station as a good example of Honor's tactical ability. Instead of having her secret reserves out in the open, where the enemy could detect them at range and choose to avoid action, she stationed them, undetectably, in hyperspace, and let the enemy see what she wanted them to see until it was too late. Also, in the battle at Solon, she figured out that they were borrowing her Sidemore tactics.I agree. What I'm saying is that Harrington's most remarkable feats are her "impossible" victories, the ones she had in ship-to-ship actions in the earlier novels in the series (and in Echoes of Honor).

So far, she's only fought two major fleet actions and several minor ones, and in none of those did she score an "impossible" victory in the sense that she won a battle that all logic would suggest she would lose, given the correlation of forces alone.

On the other hand, she hasn't faced an opponent who had that much more force than she did; Tourville thought he had more force than her at Sidemore Station, but he was wrong.


Oh - and about her Q-ship, I don't think she had the firepower of a SD(P). She had a lot of firepower, yes, but it didn't strike me as being quite that much.Wayfarer could roll missile pods at a rate of six per twelve seconds, the same as an SD(P). The difference is that she didn't have the Manticoran multi-stage missiles, so she couldn't destroy opponents before they got into effective missile range of her. And, of course, her ship was vastly easier to kill than an SD(P) and had a more vulnerable version of the pod deployment system.

I imagine that the actual finalized SD(P) designs benefited heavily from the experiences Wayfarer had.


Also, the number of ships/power of the fleet each has is not debatable. However much firepower or tonnage one has on his or her side, the other has that same amount.Which do they both have the same amount of if the firepower/tonnage ratio of Star Wars and Honorverse ships are not the same? I'd assume firepower, but I wanted to make sure we were in agreement on this issue.

[Lord Iames Osari]

I agree. What I'm saying is that Harrington's most remarkable feats are her "impossible" victories, the ones she had in ship-to-ship actions in the earlier novels in the series (and in Echoes of Honor).

So far, she's only fought two major fleet actions and several minor ones, and in none of those did she score an "impossible" victory in the sense that she won a battle that all logic would suggest she would lose, given the correlation of forces alone.

Based on correlation of forces alone (i.e., ignoring Honor's possession of Apollo), I would argue that the Battle of Manticore was such a time.


On the other hand, she hasn't faced an opponent who had that much more force than she did; Tourville thought he had more force than her at Sidemore Station, but he was wrong.

Actually, at the Battle of Manticore, Tourville had much more force than she did. It just happened to not matter because Honor had Apollo.


Wayfarer could roll missile pods at a rate of six per twelve seconds, the same as an SD(P). The difference is that she didn't have the Manticoran multi-stage missiles, so she couldn't destroy opponents before they got into effective missile range of her. And, of course, her ship was vastly easier to kill than an SD(P) and had a more vulnerable version of the pod deployment system.

I imagine that the actual finalized SD(P) designs benefited heavily from the experiences Wayfarer had.

To be sure. But an SD(P), depending on navy and ship class, has its own broadside launchers, graser mounts, and certainly a heavier chase armament.


Which do they both have the same amount of if the firepower/tonnage ratio of Star Wars and Honorverse ships are not the same? I'd assume firepower, but I wanted to make sure we were in agreement on this issue.

:smallsigh: *quotes OP*


Grand Admiral Thrawn is facing off against Fleet Admiral Lady Dame Duchess and Steadholder Honor Harrington, PMV, SG(C) CGM, CM, etc, etc. They have at their respective commands fleets of equal capability and are as familiar with the technical capabilities of their own and each other's fleets as they would be in their home universes - i.e., if they are fighting in SW galaxy, Honor has Star Destroyers and knows what they can do, and vice versa. Neither side has an advantage in terms of what firepower they can bring to bear; this battle will be decided by chance and the tactical skill of the fleet commanders.

Emphasis added.

[Dervag]

Based on correlation of forces alone (i.e., ignoring Honor's possession of Apollo), I would argue that the Battle of Manticore was such a time.I would argue the contrary; if your ships have a weapon that can destroy the enemy from far beyond their effective range (though she still had to use comm relays to boost the range of her Apollo missiles to target Tourville's fleet), you have a tactical advantage so potentially decisive that it does affect the correlation of forces.

By analogy, one man in plate armor with a broad sword against two unarmed men in shorts is an unfavorable correlation of forces for the unarmed men. Five men in a tank against thirty infantrymen with rifles is an unfavorable correlation of forces for the riflemen. And so on.

Unless I misinterpret the term 'correlation of forces', it refers to all the advantages that come from materiel. Harrington had much better materiel than Tourville by the time they actually joined battle, although she would not have had a superior force compared to Tourville if Tourville had not first been grievously weakened by battle with Home and Third Fleets, even with Apollo. Remember that part of Tourville's battle plan involved mousetrapping Harrington's Eighth Fleet as it came through the Junction, on the assumption that her Apollo-armed ships would be coming to join the battle. It was only luck on Harrington's part (as she herself reflects in the book) that Third Fleet fell into the trap in her place.


To be sure. But an SD(P), depending on navy and ship class, has its own broadside launchers, graser mounts, and certainly a heavier chase armament.The Invictus class has no broadside launchers, and the broadsides aren't really that important compared to the pod salvos (as demonstrated by the way SD(P)s made energy range engagements almost obsolete in books 9-11 of the series). Arguably, the graser mounts are similarly obsolete for this reason, though they weren't at the time Wayfarer was around.

You're right that an SD(P) had more weapon mounts than Wayfarer, but they mounted effectively the same primary weapon. Wayfarer's weakness lay not in its primary weapon, but in its ability to withstand and recover from battle damage.


:smallsigh: *quotes OP*...

Emphasis added.OK, so we are in agreement. No need to get touchy; I just wanted to check.

[The Glyphstone]

Well, according to GoogleFight... (http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Honor+Harrington&word2=Thrawn)

The Verse Versus Verse question is more interesting than it might seem, as someone above pointed out the missile issue. The Empire's fleets may be far vaster than Honorverse fleets, even if the Solarian League gets thrown in the mix (still a potential wild card, as Frontier Security does have up-to-date vessels), but with the relativistic kill weapons available, every Honorverse ship capable of mounting missile tubes (probably light cruisers and up) is a potential Death Star all on its own. A war of annihilation would get real ugly real fast - especially if ships from one verse had to follow the other's 'hyperspace' rules when they were on the attack.

[Hasivel]

I'll note again that the OP specified identical and equal fleets. . .

However Thrawn's fleet was pretty tiny. The Katana Dreadnaughts were a huge deal, enough that control of them was the major goal for a big chunk of the trilogy and Thrawn really became a credible threat after nabbing them. Yet a Dreadnaught's a relatively tiny 600 meter long ship and there were only 178 of them. If Thrawn had all these thousands of ships it would make no sense at all for less than 200 small underarmed cruisers to be so crucial and important to not only Thrawn, but the New Republic and seemingly every other two-bit power as well.

Star Wars in general seems to have really tiny fleets in the canon and massive ones in fanon. If Palpatine had all these thousands of ships available why did only 11 show up at the battle of Endor as his personal honor guard? If the Star Destroyers alone numbered in the tens of thousands, and hunting Luke was Vader's #1 goal, why were only 20 or so ships available to him for that job, with wiping out the Rebellion on the Side? It's not like after Yavin the Rebellion could still be regarded as a minor threat. Sometimes Star Wars gives me the impression the Emperor had this locked closet somewhere marked "Powerful Weapons that Could Win the War Instantly: Do Not Use" in which he stores hundreds of thousands of starships and untold dozens of superweapons.

[Timberwolf]

I'd say roughly even in a like on like fleet engagement. However, I think Thrawn would take it because, lets face it, he is the supreme military psychologist and all the Harrington luck you like won't really help that much against someone who knows exactly how your mind works. Also, Thrawn himself is a superb political operator who does not just use ships and soldiers to win.

In a 1 on 1 hand to hand fight, I dread to think. I mean, Honor is scary good, nearly 7 ft tall, cybernetically enhanced with plot armour 5 miles thick.

Thrawn, well, take a look at when he posed as Jodo Kast the bounty hunter.

In the battle of the bodyguards, Rukh vs Andrew LaFollet... could go either way. Second Nameless Noghri vs Nimitz... My money's on the Noghri but only just.

All in all, I think this is a very close match. I think on the Galactic scale, Thrawn, definately. On a fleet scale, assuming all things are equal, a bloody stalemate until Thrawn saw something coming and was able to counter it sufficiently to win and in a fist fight with 2 bodyguards each, I say Honor, just.

[Dervag]

I'd say roughly even in a like on like fleet engagement. However, I think Thrawn would take it because, lets face it, he is the supreme military psychologist and all the Harrington luck you like won't really help that much against someone who knows exactly how your mind works. Also, Thrawn himself is a superb political operator who does not just use ships and soldiers to win.I don't think it's luck. I'm not sure if Thrawn would be able to figure out Harrington that perfectly, although he would likely get a feel for her after a few battles. On the other hand, Harrington would also get a feel for him after a few battles. Maybe not quite so good, but good enough that Thrawn couldn't afford to rest on his laurels.


All in all, I think this is a very close match. I think on the Galactic scale, Thrawn, definately. On a fleet scale, assuming all things are equal, a bloody stalemate until Thrawn saw something coming and was able to counter it sufficiently to win.We have no idea how well Harrington would do in a galactic-scale war. It might be very badly, it might be very well. So far she has never had to coordinate any action larger than that of a fleet, nor over any region more than a few dozen light-years across. Of course, a theater that size in the Honorverse has about the same scale in time as a large chunk of the galaxy in Star Wars, relative to the ship speeds, but that's moot.

In a fleet engagement I'm tempted to say tie. Harrington and Thrawn are both likely to capitalize on some tiny mistake their opponent makes, or to create their own success when the enemy makes no mistakes at all. Their chances of doing so are nigh-incommensurable, and neither has a strength so great as to overwhelm the weaknesses of their opponent in my opinion.

[Moff Chumley]

As to the remarks about fleet size, they depend on the size of each fleet. If both fleets are very large than they will be split up. If they are small they may or may not. I say that if the fleets are very large than Thrawn has it in the bag; the smaller you scale the fleets the more of a chance Harrington has.

[niklos76]

Ok I'm not the best judge on Thrawn, but i have quite good knowledge of Honor Harrington:

Some questions about the scènario first : how much time do they have before combat : if they can train both for a year, i would say Honor Harrington would win, she has an uncanny abilities to teach her subordinates without making them strict followers of military protcol.:

Ok now her much belittled strategic and diplomatic abilities :

She has quite good strategic notions (i would say on par with Caperelli and White Haven, if not superior) :

In Basilisc, she not only wins against an superior vessel, but strategically uses her limited assets to cover the system without exposing her to much....

In her planning session in the Short Victorious War, she thinks her superior is making a bad strategic decision on the information he gets, for wich he apologies after the fact....

and in most books she shows quite good strategic grasp in planning most missions (and discuss a lot about the strategic situation with White Haven and Caperelli wich value her Insight Highly (two of the best strategist in the books)) she evens stands up against White Haven when he makes a bad strategic decision out of political préjudice ( In Enemy's Hands).....

And her planning for the Q Ship Squadron is very good strategic thinking : she

not only thinks of pirates but possible enemy Raiders.....

And in the last book she thinks about a plan to win against the Solarian League (the biggest player in the Honorverse) wich is quite audacious.......

So i won't bet on Thrawn against her in the long run (his best bet would be to send someone to kill her outright, but she is a though target)..... and if it's going strategic with Honorverse vs Star Wars Verse: don't forget Manticoran R&D - they would quickly reverse engeneer anything in the Star Wars Universe : (Turbo-GRASERS anyone ?)

And for Verse vs Verse : Manticoran main advantage is its educational base : their crews a very well trained
Main Disadvantage : a Death Star in the Manticoran system and it's over if it survives long enough to kill three planets.....but the Graysons will take revenge....

Ok to go back to Harrington :
Her Qualities :

- Best Tactical Leader in her Verse
- Best Strategic Leader also (look at the conversations with White Haven and Caperelli, her plannig for Eight Fleet )
- Very Good Diplomatic Skills, if somewhat direct ( A women imposes herself in a society were woman have NO Rights at all, and there are some quite good political tactics in the later books ..... She also wins the loyality of at least two very competent enemies (Alfredo Yu, werner Caslet) and the respect from a lot more: she is even requested to assist peace settlements with the enemy she brought the most losses by the same enemy out of respect for her diplomatic skills)
-One of the best Teachers out there (has some importance in a prolonged conflict: She and Thrawn can't be anywhere at once, so the leader who instilled the better tactic and leadership skills in her subordinates wins, and also has greater strategic flexibility- using false attacks, decoys, etc)
- Ability to work in a Team : ok thats important : - one mind + the loyal help of a lot of other mind who can come up with good solutions against only one mind: both are bound to make a bad décision at a moment : Harrington has a Safety net, she tests her idéas against very good subordinates in worst case scenarios :
- Thinking out of the Box most of the time : she loves unusual solutions, but is not afraid of head on slaughter

- Quite Ruthless if she must be : her fencing Master thinks she would kill him even as he has more skill, because she is prepared to take losses to win

- Without talking about taking her on in physical combat, or talking about her Emphatic Sense

And if they go down to Planets : the Royal Manticoran Marines would wipe out the Stormtroopers quite rapidly (Power Amor anyone?), and this is without refering to the bad markmanship displayed by the Troopers in the films.....

So for me Honor would win (and she will propably win over the rebels also...); and the Honoverse could also :
Better Training does a lot !!!!

[TheThan]

This is directly mentioned in "The Last Command."- pp. 68-69, after Luke gets away from the Chimaera with some wonky tractor beam-defeating device. Thrawn, who had previously killed a tractor beam technician's CO, asks the Ensign in charge if he could see any mistakes he made- he hadn't, and Thrawn knew this. He promotes the man to lieutenant and asks him to devise a solution to the problem he just faced.
"'Yes Sir' Pellaeon managed.
And stood there beside the newly minted lieutenant, feeling the stunned awe pervading the bridge as he watched Thrawn leave. Yesterday the Chimaera's crew had trusted and respected the Grand Admiral. After today, they would be ready to die for him."
I know he supported an evil empire, but damn, that's a good officer.

IIRC it was a proton torpedo aimed at the tractor beam projector. The beam latched onto the torpedo and sucked it up, letting Luke’s X Wing go in the process. The torpedo then exploded, disabling the tractor beam so they couldn’t get a new lock.
Luke then made a blind jump into hyperspace (read near suicide). A bit later, he was picked up by Talon Karrde and Mar Jade. The rest is history.

Anyway Thrawn really didn’t make any mistakes. He had no way of knowing that one of his Noghri death commandos would be captured (which they weren’t supposed to do). That gave Leia the chance to diplomate with them. This directly lead them to turn traitor on Thrawn and (literally) stab him in the back. He had no way of countering what he didn’t know was happening (though I believe he knew something was up on their homeworld), so he really didn’t have the opportunity to make that mistake. He was blindsided by an event he knew NOTHING about.

Thrawn knew Leia was a diplomat, but he didn’t give her the opportunity to use her diplomatic skills against him. But the “failure” of one of his Noghri is ultimately what caused his defeat.

[The Glyphstone]

Great Modthulhu: Holy four-year necromancy, Batman.