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The Giant
2006-03-07, 02:05 AM
So today's lesson is, "Don't try new transparency effects when you're really late with the comic."

Also, very wordy. I expect the usual complaints about verbosity and plot.

Mal_the_Mad
2006-03-07, 02:06 AM
worth the wait



but Dad i already killed the lich, no dummy you didn't duh thats why I'm here.

ok add more thee's and thou's

menkent
2006-03-07, 02:06 AM
goooo giant!
another winner :)

Platinum_Mongoose
2006-03-07, 02:06 AM
Your comic is awesome incarnate.

Kodoz
2006-03-07, 02:08 AM
Greatest line for my day "Begin to Prepare yourself for disappointment."

Doopliss
2006-03-07, 02:09 AM
I prefer 'as your cat wishes.'

Great comic, sorry to keep you up late. :)

GamingBuddha
2006-03-07, 02:09 AM
Quick, we need a Patrick Swayze Avatar! ;)

raven-gm
2006-03-07, 02:11 AM
Awesome comic!

so thats what roys dad has been up to....

Reaver225
2006-03-07, 02:11 AM
ROY, I AM YOUR FATHER!!!


I am laughing my ass off.

Lilly
2006-03-07, 02:11 AM
DUN DUN DUN!!!!!!

Very good and well worth the wait. And a good study break.

Darkspear
2006-03-07, 02:11 AM
OMG! :D

LadyOfLight
2006-03-07, 02:12 AM
Yay double comicy goodness!

"So, you got ranks in Search?"

Bwahahaha!!

Oh, and Roy quoting Belkar is just perfect!

So Mr Big Lawful Good is Roy's dad. Nice

Leo_Forestclaw
2006-03-07, 02:13 AM
Ah, now I see the reason for "complex."

That was a great "special FX" with Roy's father. *

And given the nature of Shojo's offer, I dare say we have an indication as to how our favorite halfling might get outta jail free... (that wasn't a spoiler, was it? *More of an... observation. *Honest. *Really. *For true even.)

Also: *"Crap." *LOL!

Edit: And just to make the Giant happy: I would like to complain about there not being enough and too much verbosity and plot development. Hmf.

Great job Giant. Now get us that third book. ;-)

Django
2006-03-07, 02:13 AM
with this comic, a dark cloud has passed from my heart. The Ghost of Roy's Dad, the spectrall sultan of snark is back, and ready to dispense more witticisms at his son's expense.

Dragonmaster_Crono
2006-03-07, 02:13 AM
That was awesome, well worth waiting up for. Nice to see that Shojo isn't the only one who's good at manipulating people. ;)

Dabble
2006-03-07, 02:13 AM
What can I say?

Priceless, totally worth the wait. *Can't wait until Wednesday for 291

Yeah! first page!

;D :D ;D

Edit: ok, second page

::)

FlawedParadigm
2006-03-07, 02:13 AM
Me, I love these plot comics. For me, I'm hugely embroiled in the plot now and want to learn how and why everything is as it is...

Heh. Boy, does that explain a lot. I love Roy quoting Belkar too.

tothecornfield
2006-03-07, 02:15 AM
I like where this is going. I don't think it breaks the spoiler rules to say that future strips are going to involve some more adventuring.

TheLastOfTheFallen
2006-03-07, 02:15 AM
I LOVE IT! the mystery of the BOPLAG finally revealed:

"Roy, I am your father..." ROTFL, this comic is one of my favorite ever. Thanks, Giant - I really needed the laugh. ;D

The Vorpal Tribble
2006-03-07, 02:15 AM
Interesting comic tonight. However, the main reason I'm posting now is to dash someone's hopes...


Yeah! first page!
*snickers and points to the page number*

PhoeKun
2006-03-07, 02:17 AM
'Tis well done and worth the wait as always. I'm a big fan of wordy comics, since I am likewise a big fan of plot exposition.

I especially liked the flashback to Miko's "my blades shall be bathed with blood" line. Precious hindsight, where would we be without you?

Eriol
2006-03-07, 02:18 AM
DUN DUN DUN!!!!!!
Aww... beat me to it! ;)

ExHunterEmerald
2006-03-07, 02:19 AM
Oh, well played, Mr. Burlew. Bringing I-don't-know-how-many questions to rest with a single comic. Especially because even the most likely predictions still fell short of what you had planned. And all while maintaining the fun. My congratulations, sir, and keep up the good work.

Bakta
2006-03-07, 02:20 AM
Paladins are blind impersonators. I knew it, I knew it

[edit].. Come to think of it now I know what kind of stick they're using as secondary backbone.

Waste not want not, smart in a way

tothecornfield
2006-03-07, 02:20 AM
Giant- I think that having complex transparency effects is counter productive to doing a stick figure comic, however I will forgive you on account of it being pretty awesome.

Behold_the_Void
2006-03-07, 02:20 AM
You'd think the fabric of the universe would warrant at least taking 20. Paladin wisdom scores aren't THAT bad.

Geeze, kids and dedication these days I tell ya.

But that was a great double strip, well done.

NovaNightmare
2006-03-07, 02:22 AM
Very cool!

Thank you again Giant!

yet again NPC classes rock!

Oh the Irony of the "Being from the Upper Plains!" I Like it!

Gaius_Maximus
2006-03-07, 02:23 AM
Hi,

I've been reading for about 9 months now and never posted, although I consider this by far the most consistently excellent comic I read, but I just had to say that today's installment is beyond awesome. I'm loving all the revelations. You never cease to amaze me, Giant, especially considering all the other stuff you seem to be dealing with, that you can not only keep up with the strip but give us a genius installment like this. Bring on the plot, I say.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2006-03-07, 02:25 AM
i now know the meaning of suprise, thanks rich :D

5tephen
2006-03-07, 02:26 AM
Oh, Giant:
U R teh ROXOR!!!

And all that other cool funky net-speak that the kids do these days. Your comic is one of a very few landmarks amongst the ambling plotless wastes of the rest of webcomicry.

You write really well.

Starla
2006-03-07, 02:26 AM
Yea! I love the whole storyline. This must be the beginning of the next book about to unfold!

My favorite part is search ranks--and tying the fire back to Redcloak, and the Miko's "Sigh. As your cat wishes..."

and Roy's father being the master mind behind it all. Fuddada dududa Roy 40,000 gp so you could swing a big sword and he is still giving a leg up in your adventures. That is great. I hope Roy will get paid or how will Haley get her dad out of Prison?

Zaku_III
2006-03-07, 02:27 AM
Audible gasp!

Awesome comic, well worth the wait.

ARMOURERERIC
2006-03-07, 02:28 AM
<neo>


WHOA!!!

</neo>

ElfLad
2006-03-07, 02:29 AM
Haha, the punchline was priceless.

And the trial was " a joke of justice" but not in the way Roy expected. I bet Eugene got a kick out of the whole "A cleansing fire will..." thing, just to see the look on Roy's face.


"...So, got any ranks in Spot?"

Jannex
2006-03-07, 02:30 AM
That was a shiny, shiny update. My reaction to the last panel was a complete, "Ohhhh ****!" In retrospect it makes perfect sense, but it still caught me completely off-guard. Meaning, of course, that it was brilliant. I loved the flashback exchange between Shojo and Miko, and Roy quoting Belkar was beautiful, but I think the bit I loved the best was the paladins' Search checks--because it confirms the assertion in the line under my avatar. ;D

Skyserpent
2006-03-07, 02:31 AM
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

GENIUS! Absolutely GENIUS!

Crud
2006-03-07, 02:31 AM
GAH!!! So MUCH plot exposition
Senses... Overloading... the BoPL&G has been Roy's father all along. Those paladins could use some ranks in sense motive as well as spot

Phasm
2006-03-07, 02:32 AM
::dies laughing at the final panel::

Oh, this is PRICELESS! Not only is Shojo sane, and the trial was a sham designed to cover up his (technically illegal) job offer for the Order, but the Being of Law and Good is... Roy's dad!

I salute your Greater Skill Focus: Craft (webcomic), Giant.

Lord Herman
2006-03-07, 02:35 AM
Woot! Double strip! And filled with six strips worth of funnyness!

Bonus XP for the giant!

infiniteviking
2006-03-07, 02:35 AM
verbosity!@plot!!1!

As in: Double comic!? You're really good to us. And the words are fun, and the plot is moving along nicely, and OotS remains my favorite webcomic EVAH.

Aaaaahahahahahahaha! That little piece of red cloak... Roy writhing on another plot hook... his increasing pique as Shojo Explains All... and just when he thinks it can't get any more humiliating, up pops his DAD!? Meddling with the boy's life from beyond the grave... it's probably not a spoiler to predict a lot of shouting on Wednesday.

Dad was probably was laughing up his stick-figure sleeve when the trial began. All that stuff about cleansing fires and vengeance on the guilty, and he knew all the time that he'd be pronouncing the verdict... and who knew he could go all flaming-sword-and-helmet when necessary? Coooool.

..I hope Lirian's still alive.

Fantastic comic, Giant!

Galathir
2006-03-07, 02:38 AM
Excellent comic! Sure it was a little late, but the double length more than makes up for it.

And Roy quoting Belkar is an interesting touch.

Taelas
2006-03-07, 02:39 AM
Excellent strip. Loved the paladins and their lack of ranks in search. ;D

metalphil
2006-03-07, 02:41 AM
So today's lesson is, "Don't try new transparency effects when you're really late with the comic."

Also, very wordy. I expect the usual complaints about verbosity and plot.

I like verbosity and plot. High five Giant.

rosebud
2006-03-07, 02:41 AM
:D (Of course.) Loved the flashbacks, self-references, and spot joke. I think what I find the funniest, though is that there have been hundreds of pages of debate on the trial, and it all crumbles in one double-length wonder. I don't know whether to laugh or cry. ;D (I'll take laughing, of course. But if this thread reaches 20 pages, I think crying will set in.)

Omniplex
2006-03-07, 02:46 AM
Roy's dad is awesome! I loved that last line.

ddpalmer
2006-03-07, 02:50 AM
Um, just picking a nit here, but in the "So everything we've been through --" pane Roy's speech bubble has no triangle-thingy pointing to his head. It's obviously his speech bubble, but I'm also obviously a bit, um, "detail-oriented".

:D

Giant, I offer you thanks for many hours of entertainment.

Edit: Google tells me the triangle-thingy is called a spike, or a pointer, or a tail.

Midnight Son
2006-03-07, 02:50 AM
Cnan"t Trype! laffnig too hrd!

That was awesome! How do you always give us the funny, tie up loose ends(Bathed in the blood of those responsible-why didn't he send someone to investigate Lirian's gate), move the story forward, and still keep us aching for more? Or is that just the ache in my sides from laughing so hard?

And no, I actually was expecting Don Swayze. :P

Cobrateen2000
2006-03-07, 03:05 AM
Um ... You are great ... That was awsome ... Hilarious ... What else is there to say?

Great job, please never stop.

Reivas_Genocai
2006-03-07, 03:06 AM
Yet another absolutly REMARKABLE comic, this one will end up being one of my favorites too, I just really really liked this one!

Lianae
2006-03-07, 03:06 AM
Hot damn, Giant, that is one of the best plot twists I've ever seen!

Sure, there was a lot of dialogue, but I don't have anything agaist that! Great comic as usual!

Maxymiuk
2006-03-07, 03:08 AM
Everyone together now...



Heeeeeeeeeere's Daddy!

RBloom0566
2006-03-07, 03:16 AM
*Bows silently to the Giant.*

timothyx
2006-03-07, 03:18 AM
Damn Giant.. you had me right up til Pops showed up.. sigh..

except the cliche, excellent comic today..

Charity322
2006-03-07, 03:18 AM
I have wondered for ages why Roy's father didn't show up again to tell him that he hadn't really defeated Xykon. I just couldn't see why he was keeping his mouth shut. ;D

Great comic! :)

avalon_redmoon
2006-03-07, 03:19 AM
RAOFLMAO!

Roy's dad was the last person I was expecting to be in on this! Man, I'm going to love seeing Roy's reaction to this development ;D

Knight13
2006-03-07, 03:22 AM
My mind just exploded.

xrestassuredx
2006-03-07, 03:24 AM
ZOMFG that was the best comic so far! So many twists and so many loose ends tied up at the same time, holy crapnuggets!

.. I've said all along that there had to be more to Miko's "blood-bath" comment, or it was out of Shojo's earshot altogether.

Martok
2006-03-07, 03:29 AM
My mind just exploded.


Heh; that makes two of us. ;D You did good, Giant.

I have to admit, Roy's father turning out to be in on this whole thing was absolutely nowhere on my list of mental possibilities. Talk about coming out of left field!

Kishi
2006-03-07, 03:33 AM
The sweet, sweet feeling of Roy sinking to quote Belkar- that's gonna make me laugh for a long time.

tee_kay_one
2006-03-07, 03:34 AM
Hah, great comic, this woke me up and now I can work on my stuipid code with a smile in my face like some mental case.

One question to the OotS seers here... did we (readers) get to know why redcloak (or is it xykon) wants to destroy them gates? Does he really think to control the snarl?

Oh,and then the Patrick-Swayze thing: is it a reference to the movie called "Ghost"? Ahhhh, theres one or to scenes in there I'd like to see Haley in... ;D

Devils_Advocate
2006-03-07, 03:34 AM
Well, that sure answered a lot of questions!

I, for one, love verbosity and plot.


You'd think the fabric of the universe would warrant at least taking 20. Paladin wisdom scores aren't THAT bad.
Search is Int-based, though, and Int can easily be a paladin dump stat. Still, you'd think that Shojo would send the ones with the best Search and Spot scores for a job like that. If they've got someone who can track (Miko), it seems likely that they'd have a decent investigator or two.

Then again, maybe not. It's not clear just how large the Sapphire Guard is, and their generall skill-set is surely focused on evil-smiting and whatnot.

Invariel
2006-03-07, 03:35 AM
What? A ghost? (http://giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=16)



TURN UNDEAD!!

mipers
2006-03-07, 03:50 AM
One question to the OotS seers here... did we (readers) get to know why redcloak (or is it xykon) wants to destroy them gates? Does he really think to control the snarl?


He doesn't the destrucion of Lirian's gate was a mistake http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=196

Oorlof
2006-03-07, 03:59 AM
I merely wanted to stated - as many have before me, this post coming in late on page 5 or 6 and all -

TEH UBER!!1!!one!eleven

Wow, Giant. Way to wrap up loose ends and get the gang prepped for new adventures. Rock on!

Shatteredtower
2006-03-07, 04:01 AM
Also, very wordy. I expect the usual complaints about verbosity and plot.

I think I'd be the last person permitted to complain about such a thing.


(I'll take laughing, of course. But if this thread reaches 20 pages, I think crying will set in.)

Then for the sake of verbosity (and plot!), LET THE CRYING COMMENCE!


And no, I actually was expecting Don Swayze. :P

I was expecting Gibert Gottfried myself.


Damn Giant.. you had me right up til Pops showed up.. sigh..

except the cliche, excellent comic today..

Actually, that was the best part. Objectivity? I don't need objectivity when I'm right.

Seriously, though, any comic strip based around a D&D style game must employ and acknowledge cliche regularly. It would be a poor reflection of the game and gamers if it didn't.

And let's face it, something becomes cliche because it works. It rises above cliche if it continues to work, which this reveal did. I'd hardly call it cliche here for five reasons:

Haley and Elan already called this one for us.
Based on their observations, several people mentioned suspicions that the being of Law and Good was not who he appeared to be -- but not one of them came to the conclusion that he actually was a lawful good being, let alone Roy's father.
Xykon hasn't been destroyed. It was inevitable that Roy's father return -- and as we all know, Eugene returns when it's convenient to him.
This is the ideal place for Roy's father to get involved again. Xykon is the danger and Roy's father the being most likely to volunteer to get involved in any plot to thwart him, especially when so much is at stake.
After everything else that's occured, this hook is by far the one most likely to keep Roy from walking out and letting someone else handle the problem.

To my mind, this would only be cliche if it was a shortcut to story advancement, rather than a good demonstration of how to properly utilize the resources you've created over the course of the series.

rkr1970
2006-03-07, 04:06 AM
If it weren't so funny, I'd feel sorry for Roy... Well, almost! ;D

Kish
2006-03-07, 04:11 AM
Search is Int-based, though, and Int can easily be a paladin dump stat. Still, you'd think that Shojo would send the ones with the best Search and Spot scores for a job like that. If they've got someone who can track (Miko), it seems likely that they'd have a decent investigator or two.
My thought when I first read that panel was, "So that's why they sent Miko to investigate the destruction of the second gate." Unfortunately, that idea didn't survive to the end of the strip.

Vonriel
2006-03-07, 04:19 AM
What? *A ghost? (http://giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=16)



TURN UNDEAD!!

ROFL! Yeah, this was awesome, and it's probably good for everyone that Durkon wasn't around, eh?

As for the wordiness, well, who cares! I mean, at least we got to see some fun action involving Belkar and Miko, right?

Sebastian
2006-03-07, 04:21 AM
You know things are going bad when Roy start to quote Belkar. :)

For the miko-lovers, are we allowed now to say that she was being a bitch now that we know what her exact orders were? (i.e. "try hard to bring them alive" and not "attack them with deadly force at the first occasion")

tis_tom
2006-03-07, 04:23 AM
It's all coming together! Congrats Rich! this is literary genius at it's finest! (in term's of stick figures! ;D)

PhoeKun
2006-03-07, 04:28 AM
You know things are going bad when Roy start to quote Belkar. :)

For the miko-lovers, are we allowed now to say that she was being a bitch now that we know what her exact orders were? (i.e. "try hard to bring them alive" and not "attack them with deadly force at the first occasion")

Of course not. That's obviously a Pit Fiend disguised as Lord Shojo. ;D

rwald
2006-03-07, 04:31 AM
She's a paladin, if she accidently knocked everyone into the negatives, she could just Lay on Hands everyone one point to stabilize them. Not saying anything specifically about whether it was a good way to go about things, but she did follow orders.

zimri
2006-03-07, 04:34 AM
one thing that was cemented in this comic was what EXACTLY her mission was (as she understood it)


Miko: My blades will be bathed in the blood of those responsible.

Shojo: Ah actually Mr. Scruffy says that you should try hard to bring them back alive for trial.

Miko: Sigh, as your cat wishes Master if it is possible.


So her orders (acknowledged by her) from her Master were to "bring them back alive for trial." Apparently doing so was possible because she (eventually) got Belkar there.

She shouldn't have needed to be told to stop. Once in the court room she should have stood down. Violating an order given to you by your master which you freely accepted is NOT LAWFUL in either the "following of the law" version of lawful, or the "highly disciplined and ordered" version of lawful.


"honey go get me a drink"

*me returns with one full glass and drinking from another glass*

*she reaches for the full glass*

"naw the one I just drank in front of you that was yours the full one thats mine, I went and got you a drink as requested then decided to drink it"


"Honey did you pick up the cat from the vet like I asked"

"Yes I did and then I gave it to the neighbor's dog Sluggo to play with, turns out Sluggo and Mr. Scruffy didn't get along "

Krytha
2006-03-07, 04:39 AM
Roy Greenhilt, Esquire-Fighter : Dad?!

Mr. Greenhilt, Ghost : Son, quit crying and save the universe.

Praetorian
2006-03-07, 04:44 AM
YES!!! I love it!! I can't wait to see just where this is gonna take us. I was starting to get a little tired of build up but I think the Giant just moved into a category of cartoonists/writers that far surpasses half the syndicated CRAP out there!!

I bow to your awesomeness, Mr. Burlew.

Ladoran
2006-03-07, 04:56 AM
That was goddamn beautiful! I love the ones with plot. And to top it all off it was a double length strip. Giant, you spoil us :), not that I really mind though.

Now I can't wait for the next one (although I will. And with patience). Curse this addiction ;)

pita
2006-03-07, 04:58 AM
OMGWTFBBQ
I loved the new comic.
EDIT-What the guy above said.
Now, giant, you may commence sleep.

Adeptus
2006-03-07, 05:00 AM
Brilliant comic! This really made my day. :D

Curunir
2006-03-07, 05:06 AM
For me, it was the best strip ever. I love you, Giant!


as your cat wishes.

The Glitter Ninja
2006-03-07, 05:08 AM
Terrific once again! I love the little labels on the footprints and cloak in the flashback.

Athalos
2006-03-07, 05:23 AM
I did not expect Roys dad to be the law being, awesome comic!

Merc_Kilsek
2006-03-07, 05:34 AM
Not sure if Rich will even take the time to glance this over but I've came across your site by chance and I have enjoyed the place from day one. I am enjoying the way you have been moving the feel of the OotS from one-strip jokes to an epic story without abandoning the classic feel of your earlier work. Now I am only speaking for myself but I really love the story you are telling and the way you are going about it. Thanks for three little bright moments of entertainment each week. I am grateful for your willingness to provide this for us all.

On to the topic at hand: I think Roy is a little blinded by his own anger and not looking at the bigger picture. However it’s not hard to understand why he would react in this way, as I would not be too happy myself. But Shojo is very wise ruler/leader to keep control of a city, the paladins, and keep a careful eye on the happenings of the Gates. And yet he has keep a happy balance with all factions. Impressive.

Eldhrin
2006-03-07, 05:36 AM
So today's lesson is, "Don't try new transparency effects when you're really late with the comic."

Also, very wordy. I expect the usual complaints about verbosity and plot.

Complaints? No way. Only thing I might want to complain about is that I'm now laughing to hard to possibly even consider phoning the local police, which is something I've got to do this morning.

Damn you!!

Delgarde
2006-03-07, 05:54 AM
Ok, my mind is boggling on the last row. Roy's dad is the being of pure law and good? That's just surreal.

One thing I'm wondering though - Shojo describes him as a being from the Upper Planes, yet we've always assumed he was a simple ghost, haunting his son until the oath that kept him in the world was fulfilled. Can a ghost go travelling the planes, or go touring the great cities of the world on a whim?

Dagoth
2006-03-07, 06:11 AM
Awesome comic! One of the best (if not the best) ever!

Roy's dad was a wizard though... In comic #163 V mentioned that a ghost would retain the powers he had as a mortal... So he must have been a very powerful wizard... or a more skilled liar than Shojo.

Delgarde
2006-03-07, 06:13 AM
One interesting thing is the clarification of Miko's orders with regard to bringing the Order back alive. She clearly acknowledged that instruction, yet made not even the slightest attempt to obey it, attacking with lethal force without any attempt to parley beforehand. Granted, a suggestion from Mr Scruffy isn't the same thing as an order from Shojo, but he did make his intent pretty clear, and she agreed to it.

I wonder if this suggests some discontent among the paladins, as to whether an apparently senile Shojo is a genuine authority to be obeyed?

Delgarde
2006-03-07, 06:21 AM
Roy's dad was a wizard though... In comic #163 V mentioned that a ghost would retain the powers he had as a mortal... So he must have been a very powerful wizard... or a more skilled liar than Shojo.

A very subtle one too, I imagine. Ghosts don't usually choose to hang out around groups of clerics and paladins, yet Eugene seems to have been doing so for quite some time without arousing any suspicions.

I guess it's no great prediction to say there's more to this than is apparent?

Edit: Oh, and apparently I'm a Dwarf now, not a Pixie. Hurray!

Kish
2006-03-07, 06:27 AM
Roy's father is a being of the Upper Planes because he's a dead Lawful Good person.

U2QueenBee
2006-03-07, 06:29 AM
OMGWTFBBQ
I loved the new comic.

LOL my thoughts exactly...it is wordy but awesome. I totally did not see that coming! (The part about Roy's dad, obviously - the quest thing seemed likely.) And LOL at Mr. Scruffy. I like Shojo's sense of humour - very dry. A bit Cleese-esque perhaps?

Patrick Swayze...*snicker*

Foxer
2006-03-07, 06:34 AM
That was by far the best strip for ages, and don't it answer a lot of questions?

My hat is off to you, Mr Giant, sir.

rat_bastard
2006-03-07, 06:40 AM
BEST...COMIC....EVER!

Even better than Thog on rocket skates.

I also have to confess that a year ago before I started reading oots, I met the giant at a convention, looked at his booth of assorted Oots swag and books and thought to my self "What kind of idiot would buy a book of a webcomic?". Now I must have them all. Alll of them!

man I can't belive I missed out on an oppertunity to own an autographed oots book.

RemoJr
2006-03-07, 06:48 AM
awesome comic. oh and omg, someone used a line from belkar to dispense wisdom!? lol

Cap_Hardman
2006-03-07, 06:54 AM
:o Papa Greenhilt?!?

Freelance Henchman
2006-03-07, 07:08 AM
Great comic!!!
- ranks in Search
- plot exposition
- Greenhilt senior? DUN DUN DUNN!! (Elan should have felt a "disturbance in the force" from that :) )
+: As a Miko-Lover, the line "I sent my most powerful Paladin to the north to collect you" makes me immensely proud, for some reason ;)

I move that the comic be renamed "Miko the Paladin, and her loyal sidekicks, The Order of the Stick". Seconded? ;D

Alfryd
2006-03-07, 07:25 AM
So today's lesson is, "Don't try new transparency effects when you're really late with the comic."

Also, very wordy. I expect the usual complaints about verbosity and plot.
I'll settle for complaining about it being Tuesday. Good work, need more input.

Giant- I think that having complex transparency effects is counter productive to doing a stick figure comic, however I will forgive you on account of it being pretty awesome.
Agreed.



I move that the comic be renamed "Miko the Paladin, and her loyal sidekicks, The Order of the Stick". Seconded?
For your own safety, you must leave, now.


Miko's orders with regard to bringing the Order back alive. She clearly acknowledged that instruction, yet made not even the slightest attempt to obey it, attacking with lethal force without any attempt to parley beforehand.

For the miko-lovers, are we allowed now to say that she was being a bitch now that we know what her exact orders were? (i.e. "try hard to bring them alive" and not "attack them with deadly force at the first occasion")
No. 7 in the Miko FRC. You're confusing crimes commited by the Linear Guild. But thank you for playing!

She shouldn't have needed to be told to stop. Once in the court room she should have stood down.
Correct.

Mute
2006-03-07, 07:29 AM
Hm, so Roy's dad is a ghost who retains all the spellcasting power he had during his life. Does that make him a spoooky wizard?

Lasombra
2006-03-07, 07:32 AM
he's nowhere near the cost :P unfortunatly...

but yey! i was wondering what Roys dad was doing :P

Shlik
2006-03-07, 07:46 AM
This was a fantastic comic.

Truely!


Thank you Mr Burlew.

Vampire_Boy
2006-03-07, 07:47 AM
Oh dear, this was hilarious! ;D

On one hand, I really like Shojo at how cunning he is playing the whole order of paladins for complete fools (so much for the 'surely they know he's not a paladin' theory) and they don't have the slightest clue! It just shows how dangerous narrowminded LG zealotry is - someone with more twisted morals than Shojo would be very much able to get them to do most heinous crimes in the name of Greater Good - Miko would be so eager to Smite anyone he points at.

On the other hand, I really hate Shojo for inflicting Miko on OOTS and on the readers - what a complete and utter bastard! Not to mention that the trigger happy bitch quickly forgot about her masters orders to bring them to Azure City, just as soon as her "trusty" Gather Information checks had proved that the OOTS are irredeemably Evil and she decided to kill Roy on the spot. I really have to wonder what Shojo would have told her then.

Shatteredtower
2006-03-07, 07:51 AM
I really have to wonder what Shojo would have told her then.

"I believe this being of Law and Good from the Upper Planes would like to have a few words with you, Miko Miyazaki..."

Kanashimi
2006-03-07, 08:13 AM
oh

my

god

Head Exploded

Laughing wayyyy too loud at work


Got to hand it to you, Giant. You came up with an ending NONE of use could have imagined!!!

wow

Fire_Wolf
2006-03-07, 08:21 AM
Oooh! This is gonna get complicated! Pretty cool that we finally found out what happened with Roy's dad. I mean, when was the last time he turned up?

On an unrelated note, anyone else think this arc's likely to end at #300? I'm just impatient 'cos I want another book release. :P

Ryngard
2006-03-07, 08:22 AM
Thank you very much Giant for this great addition. I loved the added plot elements and the jokes were subtle and exquisite.

Now, get book 3 published so we can buy it! :)

Lady_Orc
2006-03-07, 08:22 AM
Am rapidly becoming more and more of a Lord Shojo fan. :D Also found the flashbacks highly interesting.

Yoast
2006-03-07, 08:25 AM
I guess those paladins will explode if they find out their 'great leader' is not even LG. Which will be hilarious to read about in the comic ofcourse.

WNxArrakis
2006-03-07, 08:33 AM
that WAS GREAT. hiltless greenhiilt. woot

Arrakis

Lightman
2006-03-07, 08:35 AM
Just...wow.

pita
2006-03-07, 08:35 AM
Hm, so Roy's dad is a ghost who retains all the spellcasting power he had during his life. Does that make him a spoooky wizard?
And is Azure City next to the coast?

Vargtass
2006-03-07, 08:36 AM
Now, I have not been part of the discussion on Lord Shojo's alleged paladin status before, so forgive me if this has already been elaborated, but would it not be reasonable to assume that the Sapphire Guard indeed know that Shojo is not a paladin, but that he can still be leader of the order? Obviously, they would assume that he is LG, while he probably is NG, but that is a minor difference.

Archonic Energy
2006-03-07, 08:36 AM
Thank you giant for such a wonderful birthday present.

he he he Roy quoteing Belkar ... priceless!

Dhavaer
2006-03-07, 08:39 AM
he's nowhere near the cost :P unfortunatly...

I thought Azure City had a harbour? That would make him a spoooky wizard near the coast.

fithi
2006-03-07, 08:39 AM
Fantastic!

Who would have guessed that the being was actually the ghost of Roy's father? ;D

Ilanin
2006-03-07, 08:44 AM
One thing I'm wondering though - Shojo describes him as a being from the Upper Planes, yet we've always assumed he was a simple ghost, haunting his son until the oath that kept him in the world was fulfilled. Can a ghost go travelling the planes, or go touring the great cities of the world on a whim?

Roy's dad plays canasta with archons (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=15), so he's presumably got some connections in the Upper Planes, if he's not normally resident there...

Gardan
2006-03-07, 08:45 AM
I saw that plot coming. I knew Shojo would ask them to look in on the new gates because he could not ask the paladins to do it.


But I did not expect Ghost Dad to show up! Well done Giant!


First time post! woot!

Blaznak
2006-03-07, 08:58 AM
Me Likey!

The "Prepare yourself for disappointment" part was very good, and its clear Roy's father was in on this deal from the beginning...

Still...

What's going on with the Linear Guild? lots of time for THEIR mayhem to be happening, I suspect!

Later~

Deuce
2006-03-07, 09:00 AM
LOL

"As your cat wishes Master"

OK, maybe I can see a *little* bit of why Miko is such a , erm, grump.

;D

Lurker
2006-03-07, 09:00 AM
So today's lesson is, "Don't try new transparency effects when you're really late with the comic."

Also, very wordy. I expect the usual complaints about verbosity and plot.

Wordy is good. Don't let the wags sway you!

Sylian
2006-03-07, 09:02 AM
Yeah, everything can't be a surprise, then it'd be hard to move the plot forward.
Heh, the irony. Yesterday I thought about Roy's father, that he had not been in the strip for a loooong time. Today, he's in the strip!

Oh, and plot strips are important. If the strip haven't had those, if it only had have joke strips, then it'd have been boring after awile, say, maybe one hundered strips or so. There is only so much funny to do, I'm surprised that Rich still have some of it left.
Good strip!

Roy's father is Lawful Good? Really? How do you know that? Is it in book 0? When will it come to Europe?

Jaqrabbit
2006-03-07, 09:03 AM
Exposition, plot, and the return of Roy's Dad! This is a great one. ;D

Also, Shojo is sneaking up on the Top Five Favorite Characters list (Roy, Redcloak, Xykon, Roy's Dad, Vaarsuvius) and might just displace the pointy eared Wizard here soon.

mack962289
2006-03-07, 09:15 AM
Great job Giant. It seems like they just get better every time. The last fram is my favorite. Great stuff.

Nyax
2006-03-07, 09:18 AM
Wooooo Monday double lenght update! This one answers sooo many questions, makes the plot almost run, and is a new source for cool quotes, "You might want to begin to prepare yourself for disappointment". lol

Antina
2006-03-07, 09:22 AM
Really didn´t see that one coming!
Nicely done!
Thanx a lot for the fun :)

Hell - such a long wait for the next book of yours... (oh - and please advertice it to amazon, so it might be a lot easyer to get)

themunck
2006-03-07, 09:23 AM
Good one, Rich. Iys really hard to draw a stick figure with his hands behind his back.

Albion
2006-03-07, 09:25 AM
First feelings: WOH HOO! BRILLIANT!!! ;D

And I guess you'll have to do with that as my comment this time...

rohanvos
2006-03-07, 09:31 AM
Giant,

I wish that I could be a player in one of your campaigns, your ability to mislead the players and skillfully tie up loose ends is quite simply amazing.

Overlord Jack Chainer
2006-03-07, 09:36 AM
I have to agree with rohanvos you are indeed great

Darius Midnite
2006-03-07, 09:38 AM
Well done kind sir!
You have fooled us all with you brilliant plots and other....stuff..
Well it was good though...

JessmanCA
2006-03-07, 09:50 AM
wordy perhaps, But this time very necessary. It made the plot more intriguing.

Swashbuckler
2006-03-07, 09:54 AM
Out-freakin'-standing comic!! ;D ;D ;D

Plots revealed!

Snarky comments!

Relational apparitions (and the 'Patrick Swayze' line was priceless)!

... and, of course, more Mr. Scruffy! ;D


*contented sigh* I've never been so happily addicted.

Marller
2006-03-07, 10:19 AM
Very good comic. ;D


Now, I have not been part of the discussion on Lord Shojo's alleged paladin status before, so forgive me if this has already been elaborated, but would it not be reasonable to assume that the Sapphire Guard indeed know that Shojo is not a paladin, but that he can still be leader of the order? Obviously, they would assume that he is LG, while he probably is NG, but that is a minor difference.
You are right, that they know of course. He is leader of the Sapphire Guard due to inheritance and not because of his alignment or class. They don't know that he is only playing the senility.

Kord
2006-03-07, 10:37 AM
It is always good to have strips like these that are so interesting because they answer so many questions. *It provides a mix between strips that are all based around one almost pointless joke and don't really have anything to do with the plot, though those are still incredibly funny! :)

codemartin
2006-03-07, 10:39 AM
Me like, Me like alot ;D

Anyway dont worry gaint I am sure most people like wordy, I know I do.

Lets count how many quotes use this comic...

Woot page nine.

TinSoldier
2006-03-07, 10:42 AM
Yet another post in a long line of posts saying "Awesome comic, Giant!"

I must be slow, I thought the Patrick Swayze comment was funny even before remembering the movie Ghost. But then one poster mentioned Ghost Dad (a terrible Bill Cosby movie) and I thought that was funny as well.

There are just too many good lines and panels in this update to pick just one or two!

KaosDevice
2006-03-07, 10:43 AM
Angry Roy = always funny.

Quinton250
2006-03-07, 11:09 AM
Could someone explain this to me, it doesn't make sense...

Roy says

"For example: You JUST told me that you didn't learn any information on who burned down Lirian's Gate... but you now claim to have known about us before you unleashed Miko."

"So Which one is the lie?"


I don't see how those two things contradict each other at all, they seem unrelated.

Sylian
2006-03-07, 11:12 AM
Could someone explain this to me, it doesn't make sense...

Roy says

"For example: You JUST told me that you didn't learn any information on who burned down Lirian's Gate... but you now claim to have known about us before you unleashed Miko."

"So Which one is the lie?"


I don't see how those two things contradict each other at all, they seem unrelated.

Why should he know things about one thing and nothing about the other?
There has to be a reason, or either:
1. He did know about Lirian's gate.
2. He didn't know about either gate.
But, he showed us why he knew about the Order of the Stick but not Redcloak.

Gary_Schaper
2006-03-07, 11:21 AM
"For example: You JUST told me that you didn't learn any information on who burned down Lirian's Gate... but you now claim to have known about us before you unleashed Miko."

"So Which one is the lie?"


I don't see how those two things contradict each other at all, they seem unrelated.

The implicit explanation for why he didn't know about Lirian's Gate before he sent the paladins would be Soon's oath. It prevents those who swear it from trying to find out information about the other gates unless the gates are destroyed. Shojo may not respect the oath, but the paladins who work for him do, so it restricts him just the same.

So, Shojo wouldn't have known anything about Dorukan's gate, other than the fact of its destruction, until he sent paladins there as well. Except that Greenhilt Sr. showed up very shortly to inform him.

Waf
2006-03-07, 11:23 AM
I'm impressed, Giant you really had me stumped on how Kraagor had gotten a gate till I went back and found Lirian had made her gate a tomb for Kraagor.

Gary_Schaper
2006-03-07, 11:26 AM
I must say that I'm a little bit disillusioned by the revelations here. All along I've felt that the Order's capture was justified, and while it was, technically, Shojo didn't order it because it was justified; he ordered it because he wanted to coerce the Order.

Now, I kind of LIKE sneaky Shojo better than lawful Shojo, but I'm irritated that I really shouldn't like him because of the way he's been yanking the Order around.

whitemane
2006-03-07, 11:31 AM
Wow.... Awesome comic! Let me just add that this would also make a really cool adventure!

Jacklu
2006-03-07, 11:40 AM
That was AWSOME!!! I don't know how you do it Giant, they just get better and better. I laughed so hard when the Being of Ultimate good turned out to be Roy's dad. I never saw it coming! I love the part about the paladins not having any rank in search.! ;D

kriklaf
2006-03-07, 11:44 AM
I'm wiping tears of laughter off my face right now...this one was truly a gem. I can't decide which is funnier: the little signs over Redcloak's leavings or "Patrick Swayze." Patrick Swayze?! WTF?!! It's perfect for Roy's dad being a crotchety old fart who's 15 years or so behind on his knowledge of heartthrob movie stars (my apologies if Rich still thinks Mr. Dirty Dancing is a stud...to each his own;))

Great job, Giant!

myomer
2006-03-07, 11:57 AM
Soon as I saw that spirit of a jury at the beginning of the trial I thought "this is going to be funny if it's Roy's dad."

I KNEW IT! ;D

And for some reason, "the day your bard blew up Dorukan's Gate" sounded funny to me.

Spoiler:





As to plot.... looks like the lich has been busy as well eh? Wonder why he wants to blow up every gate....

<errr take that back read past comics....... never mind on the spoiler.>

Crazy_Uncle_Doug
2006-03-07, 12:18 PM
I'd been wondering what Roy's dad has been doing all this time. We hadn't seen him at all, even after the first defeat of Xykon, and I was thinking all this time: Why doesn't Dad show up and berate Roy for assuming the job is done when it's not? Now we know! (And knowing is half the battle.) I didn't expect this, but it felt good; it made sense.

Poor Miko was duped all along, and though her attitude and methods are heavy-handed, I liked her in a misguided overzealous paladin way. I hope we see more of her continued descent, and maybe even see her eventually redeem herself. Redemption stories are one of my favorites.

rohanvos
2006-03-07, 12:20 PM
I think that the evil old litch is not necessarily trying to destory them, but rahter is trying ot harness the power of the snarl. Unfortunately he hasn't had much success since red cloak burned down the first one, and Elan blew up the second one that had the perfect defense of requiring a good aligned character to activate it.

rohanvos
2006-03-07, 12:21 PM
Or Miko could always become a corrupted avenger. I thnk that is what the new prestige class that is for paladin that go over the edge in terms of destroying their enemies.

danb
2006-03-07, 12:30 PM
Or Miko could always become a corrupted avenger.

But would she wear the leather catsuit? Or a bowler hat instead perhaps?

;)

Daavi_Tues
2006-03-07, 12:37 PM
I love you, mister Giant.

Will you marry me?

Coldwind
2006-03-07, 12:38 PM
Shojo has lots of similarities with Palpatine, except he's not evil but good.

Good strip.

Rethorn
2006-03-07, 12:50 PM
Holy crap, great comic Giant. :) Well worth the wait.

Supagoof
2006-03-07, 12:55 PM
I'm surprised the debate hasn't started yet between Miko supporters and Belkar supporters about the justification of Miko capturing them being a total farce, to which I have a question now....

In a game, our DM decided that a Paladin, under the control of one of our sorcerers, did something that caused it to fall, though it clearly had no choice and objected in every fashion possible. The question I pose is this, can a Paladin fall if it performs an act though it is being "controlled" by others, such as with Miko being "controlled" by following orders, or our friend being mind controlled? (perhaps I am posting this in the wrong forum, but I'd still like to know)

Viva, la Belkar revolution!

Awesome strip Giant.

Karkadinn
2006-03-07, 01:07 PM
Does it seem to anyone else that some of this stuff was made up more or less on the spot to cover tiny plot holes? Don't get me wrong, I love the way everything's all tied together, but some explanations hold together less well than others.
Like sending paladins without ranks in Search to investigate the forest gate's destruction. C'mon, at the LEAST they could hire a lawful good ranger or something, even if Miko wasn't available.
And speaking of Miko, it doesn't really seem like her to be so willing to disobey orders, even if they're just orders given by a cat. She IS lawful good by letter rather than spirit, after all. What can be more important to her than literal obedience? It makes me wonder if the bathed in blood thing was concieved before the rest of Miko's character or Lord Shojo's plan were fully fleshed out in Monsieur Giant's mind.
Analysis on these forums usually takes the role of assuming everything is done intentionally and planned out right from the start, but writers are people, too, and they can be imperfect.... ;)

Temptyn
2006-03-07, 01:14 PM
It wouldn't be funny if he had sent people with ranks in Search to investigate. I laughed...and I think that was the point. ;D

Namfoodle2
2006-03-07, 01:36 PM
I agree, the clueless Paladins standing over the obvious evidence was hilarious.

I don't know about you guys, but I always try to buy ranks of spot, listen and search for my characters, even if it's cross-class. *It's meta-game-y, but so many encounters have a spot/listen DC to avoid surprise, and so many rewards/clues have a search DC to find.

A lot of great lines in the strip. Belkar quotes, cat wishes, etc.

I recall that there was a lot of speculation about whether the paladins knew about Shojo's deception, and right off he confirms they don't. At 14th level, raw charisma isn't a replacement for ranks in sense motive.

JMFD
2006-03-07, 01:39 PM
*joins in cheering*

Good job as always, and double length for extra-shiney goodness!

Huzzah!

KaosDevice
2006-03-07, 01:40 PM
Sometimes you've got to let go of a little logic in order to make with the funny.

lunar
2006-03-07, 01:42 PM
I'm surprised the debate hasn't started yet between Miko supporters and Belkar supporters about the justification of Miko capturing them being a total farce, to which I have a question now....

In a game, our DM decided that a Paladin, under the control of one of our sorcerers, did something that caused it to fall, though it clearly had no choice and objected in every fashion possible. The question I pose is this, can a Paladin fall if it performs an act though it is being "controlled" by others, such as with Miko being "controlled" by following orders, or our friend being mind controlled? (perhaps I am posting this in the wrong forum, but I'd still like to know)

Viva, la Belkar revolution!

Awesome strip Giant.

A paladin must wilfully violate her code or her alignment to be stripped of paladinship. Being controlled or manipulated by others never counts.

theKOT
2006-03-07, 01:42 PM
Phew! I go to sleep before the comic is up and have to crawl through 11 pages before posting!

Anyway, this answers a question raised by some on this board(including me), that question being: Why doesn't Lord Shojo tell Miko that she can't treat people that way? The answer? It would give up his disguise. Although I'm still worried about Miko-the timebomb-Miyazaki ticking to explode in her chambers. Oh, and some spoiler time for all yalls:

I don't think Miko will get sent along with the OOTS, because then her dramatic exit would have been wasted. The only way it could happen is if Belkar is found guilty and sentenced to death or several years and the OOTS needs someone to take his place. However, considering the dramatic exit thing and Shojo's disinterest in justice, I say that he lets Belkar go free to help the OOTS, perhaps rigging another trial.

So, I liked the strip, but I think this will be a test of the Giant's writing skills. Can he keep the characters entertaining and the plotline engaging on the save-the-world scale? I hope so, but I don't really know. I've enjoyed his writing up to this point, but this is an epic-level challenge. I guess I, just like all of you, will simply have to wait and see.

Sigh, 11 hours 19 minutes till wednesday, 11 hours 18 minutes...

Gleanerizer
2006-03-07, 01:43 PM
The conversation between the two paladins in flashback is one I have at least once a week with a certain taciturn buddy of mine. Just replace "got ranks in Search?" with "Got any beer?", "Any luck with the ladies last night?", "Get paid yet?", et cetera.

Great comic, it had everything. 8)

darthmoridin
2006-03-07, 01:43 PM
Brilliant! Brilliant! Brilliant!

That deserves a round of mead. If no mead available, Guinness!

BiggusGeekus
2006-03-07, 01:46 PM
Good one, Giant!

Gunslinger47
2006-03-07, 01:48 PM
I sent my most powerful paladin to the North to collect you.Miko is the most powerful paladin in the Sapphire Guard?

Starla
2006-03-07, 01:49 PM
Who says it is imperfect to make it up as you go.

Look at Ann McCaffrey's Pern series. The indescrepancies in the back stories (or prologues) are explained away by justifying that legends can develop in a civilization that skews the original facts. The dragons can teleport through space and time and talk to each other through their minds but it wasn't until Skies of Pern that dragons learned telekenisis. Then her son Todd Mc Caffrey takes over and writes Dragonsblood which filled in a bunch of gaps and mysteries that were never explained and barely mentioned at all in any of the other books but his style is so close to his mother that I had to remind myself who had written it.

Roy's father is behind everything. He showed up in #15 and has been reappearing ever since. He is the mastermind and the link behind it all.

Namfoodle2
2006-03-07, 01:53 PM
At least Roy's Dad is "Stag" today!

That is, he didn't bring a date ::)

BiggusGeekus
2006-03-07, 01:54 PM
Who says it is imperfect to make it up as you go.

I agree.

One of my favorite Star Trek: Next Generation double-episodes was the one where Picard gets captured by the Borg. At the end of Part One, Riker has developed a super-weapon and gives the order to fire. End of the season. You have to wait a few months to find out what happens.

What's interesting is that what was going on is the lead writer for that episode was quitting that season and he decided to go out with a bang. So he wrote this huge cliffhanger with no idea of how to solve it. But then the producers called him up and convinced him to stay on for another year. He agreed and then said to himself "Uh oh. What do I do NOW?"

And he did a pretty good job of it, I think.

Then again, maybe the Giant really did have it all planned out. The original riddle was thought out way in advance. Haley even makes a joke about it.

Starbuck_II
2006-03-07, 01:59 PM
That was a great comic.
I Loved:
"Got any ranks in search? "

It makes sense now that I see it, but this means Belkar killed a Gaurd for nothing since they really weren't in trouble.

aaronbourque
2006-03-07, 02:05 PM
one thing that was cemented in this comic was what EXACTLY her mission was (as she understood it)
If possible. If not possible, she still thought they were criminals and maybe deserved a good smiting.


So her orders (acknowledged by her) from her Master were to "bring them back alive for trial." Apparently doing so was possible because she (eventually) got Belkar there.

She shouldn't have needed to be told to stop. Once in the court room she should have stood down. Violating an order given to you by your master which you freely accepted is NOT LAWFUL in either the "following of the law" version of lawful, or the "highly disciplined and ordered" version of lawful.
a) okay, but Paladins are allowed more leeway in the Lawful/Chaotic axis than the Good/Evil axis.

b) she was in the middle of a rather bloody fight with someone who had killed one of her comrades-in-arms, and probably thought letting him live would be too risky and a blight on justice.

c) having to be told your Lawful Good mission by a seemingly senile old geezer and his cat's got to be grating eventually. No wonder the Paladins sent to check Lirian's gate were half-assed about it.

d) Leave Miko alone, she's not in the comic anymore, for the foreseeable future, and per my prediction that she'll never show up again.

And I'm always right, so naa.


+: As a Miko-Lover, the line "I sent my most powerful Paladin to the north to collect you" makes me immensely proud, for some reason ;)
Well, for one thing it implies that she's at a higher level than the Order.

And for another, god damn, that means, if she's really someone who goes on solo missions a lot, she's got to kick ass. Level 16-18 (I'm guessing, maybe she's only 14th level, just like her liege lord) on your own means a lot of tough challenges. Sure, the XP reward isn't divided, but HP soak is also not divided! Nor the spell slots, especially considering Paladins don't get many to begin with, compared even to a bard.


I move that the comic be renamed "Miko the Paladin, and her loyal sidekicks, The Order of the Stick". Seconded? ;D
Nah. I think Miko would do much better in her own solo story/series.

Hmm . . . possible bonus content in the next (few) book(s)?


I must say that I'm a little bit disillusioned by the revelations here. All along I've felt that the Order's capture was justified, and while it was, technically, Shojo didn't order it because it was justified; he ordered it because he wanted to coerce the Order.

Now, I kind of LIKE sneaky Shojo better than lawful Shojo, but I'm irritated that I really shouldn't like him because of the way he's been yanking the Order around.
Do you not play a lot of RPGs? This is pretty much standard operating procedure when it comes to big powerful noble getting random adventuring party to do his or her bidding.


Poor Miko was duped all along, and though her attitude and methods are heavy-handed, I liked her in a misguided overzealous paladin way. I hope we see more of her continued descent, and maybe even see her eventually redeem herself. Redemption stories are one of my favorites.
Mine too, and really the only way I'd want to see her come back.

Good people becoming bad is one reason I don't read as many comic books as I used to.


In a game, our DM decided that a Paladin, under the control of one of our sorcerers, did something that caused it to fall, though it clearly had no choice and objected in every fashion possible. The question I pose is this, can a Paladin fall if it performs an act though it is being "controlled" by others, such as with Miko being "controlled" by following orders, or our friend being mind controlled? (perhaps I am posting this in the wrong forum, but I'd still like to know)
Wow. That opens up a big can of worms. The wording in the SRD is a Paladin loses his or her powers if she ever willingly commits an Evil act. Under coercion isn't willing, and neither is under the influence of a spell. However, being commanded to perform an act that ends up being Evil?

It would depend on the GM. Me, I take the view that alignment is about attitude, so someone commanded to perform such an act and willingly goes through with it . . . as long as it's a subtle or inobviously Evil act, I'd see it as not Evil so much as Lawful. However, if they don't immediately try to repair the damage of the Evil act, then their attitude isn't so much Lawful Good as Lawful Neutral, or at least a big step towards that direction.

If it's an obviously Evil act, then they should object, and thus if they don't, they've willingly commited an Evil act.

Which means your GM might have screwed up, from my perspective.

edit: Wow, this is a long post.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

Eriol
2006-03-07, 02:10 PM
A few things:

1. I didn't get the Patrick Swaze thing until later. Was musing about the comic later last night, then "got" it.

2. I think the "Ghost Dad" thing mentioned a few pages ago is a riot. Coincidence, or intentional?

3. Somebody mentioned about ghosts maintaining the spellcasing powers, but was V referring to hir ghost or hir ghast? The letter seems... indistinct (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=163). I always read it as "ghast", but looking at it close-up, it's hard to tell. Could easily be either. Not to mention the fact that elves may work differently upon death than humans, especially violent death (execution of V) versus dying of old age (Eugene).

nuance
2006-03-07, 02:17 PM
Also, very wordy. I expect the usual complaints about verbosity and plot.

Not from me. *That was fabulous.

I really love the way you weave the threads of this story together and still make it consistently funny. *I'm still not sure how he's planning to get Belkar off, which I assume he is if he want's the orders co-operation.

I look forward to finding out :-)

Edit: Leave my text smiley alone, Damnit!

Gus
2006-03-07, 02:21 PM
brilliant !

Freeman333
2006-03-07, 02:26 PM
I saw that plot coming. * I knew Shojo would ask them to look in on the new gates because he could not ask the paladins to do it.


But I did not expect Ghost Dad to show up! *Well done Giant!




I'll just echo this person, as it was exactly what I wanted to say. Reading the first half of the comic, I was all like, "Come on, Roy, quit playing dumb, you know what's coming. It's quest time." Then I get to the bottom of the page, and see the Being dissolving, and I think, "Okay, what's this all about? Who's it gonna be? Whoooooooooo's it gonna be?...."

And then, Bam!

Loved it. This is gonna be one hella sarcastic confrontation right here. Roy knows what he's got to do, he knows what his dad is going to tell him to do, he knows he's going to do it in the end--but both him and his dad know that there's no way it's not going to lead to an argument between them. Despite their differences, like most fathers and sons, they're too much alike to get along well...

Solara
2006-03-07, 02:28 PM
Just had to say this comic was fantastic! :D Even fantastic enough to make me break my vow of never reading the main comic thread again.

Never even came close to seeing the twist with Roy'd dad coming, and now that Shojo's genius is fully revealed he's just become my favorite non-OOtS character of all time. (expect possibly Thog...but can you really compare the two?)

In a way I almost feel sorry for Miko. I wonder how she's going to take it when she finds out that Shojo is not only not LG, but that he's also been deceiving her for so long?

Of course, her finding out the truth could be very bad for the OOtS...I wonder if following Shojo's orders and restraining herself from attacking them all in the courtroom would have been such a priority if she knew her 'liege' wasn't even lawful.


Wow. That opens up a big can of worms. The wording in the SRD is a Paladin loses his or her powers if she ever willingly commits an Evil act. Under coercion isn't willing, and neither is under the influence of a spell. However, being commanded to perform an act that ends up being Evil?

They're using the Book of Exalted Deeds, I guess. A paladin loses their powers even if they're forced to do an evil act while under magical coercion, and have to do an atonement to regain them.

Melnor
2006-03-07, 02:32 PM
So today's lesson is, "Don't try new transparency effects when you're really late with the comic."

Also, very wordy. I expect the usual complaints about verbosity and plot.

Curses those ungrateful fools! You produce the best webcomic out there, Giant, DON'T CONFORM!

Sundog
2006-03-07, 02:33 PM
Oh - my goodness. It all fits together now.

The pressure to beat Xykon - the aid against the Chimaera - then Miko - now masquerading as the Big Lawful Thingie...

Rich Burlew, I bow to your august magnificence. The entire strip has been lead up to this point.

Evik
2006-03-07, 02:40 PM
point of interest for me...
*Miko is the most powerful Paladin in the Saphire Guild
viewed in that light it is no wonder she kicks tail

and also ...Roy you have just been sucked into yet another side quest LOL

Solara
2006-03-07, 02:50 PM
You know, thinking about it further, I see plenty of reasons why Miko is going to be pissed about the farce of the trial, Shojo's deception, etc. It's actually a little scary wondering what her reaction would be. I'd go into more detail, but that might be spoiler territory, so I'll just say that remembering #251 and the way Miko acts when she feels like she's been betrayed by someone is what got me thinking on this path.

Sylvius
2006-03-07, 02:55 PM
I want to commend the Giant for referring back to my favourite strip ever, #179.

"I just don't trust you enough to believe that you lied."

If anyone ever woders why I love Belkar, #179 is why.

Fanatic-Templar
2006-03-07, 02:58 PM
This comic surprised and bewilderedme, not to mention humouring me. Beyond perfection. Avatar of Law, yeah right :D.

Logos7
2006-03-07, 03:25 PM
Why in the bloody blue blaizes would miko ever find out that the old badger is not senile?

It's not something i'd be bringing up in the paladin union metting

So um yeah guys i kind lied and mislead you all but for a good casue

(Blang)

What taht sound?

Oh about 50 paladin's falling from grace

Logos

zimri
2006-03-07, 03:27 PM
If possible. If not possible, she still thought they were criminals and maybe deserved a good smiting.


As I believe I pointed out the fact that she got Belkar to the courtroom proves that it was in fact possible for her to do so.

It isn't about what she thought they deserved it's about what she was TOLD to do by her commander. A (to the best of her knowledge) lawfully given order from her(to the best of her knowledge) lawfully accepted leader.

Ronfar
2006-03-07, 03:28 PM
This comic was great. Definitely one of the best. Don't ever worry about being too wordy, Rich. Words are good.

Solara
2006-03-07, 03:40 PM
Why in the bloody blue blaizes would miko ever find out that the old badger is not senile?


Because it would make for good drama, and probably good funny to boot.

WojtekPod
2006-03-07, 03:48 PM
It's one of the best OotS comics ever. :)

WojtekPod

Leo_Forestclaw
2006-03-07, 03:51 PM
And is Azure City next to the coast?

Hey is just struck me... "Azure City..." and the home town of the Spooky Wizards is nick named the "Emerald City..." *

Am I reaching too far here or have we uncovered another brilliant Burlew pun?

Eva_of_Sirrion
2006-03-07, 03:56 PM
Yay for another appearance by Roy's dad!

Well this is great, now I'm gonna hear the voice of Isaac Hayes whenever I reread the comics with the BPLG speaking. * ;D ;)

rebellioussong
2006-03-07, 04:12 PM
Amazing work Giant

Ties so much together seamlessly
*miko's line
*the arrest
*The being of truth and justice
*the gate
AWESOME

Ironfang
2006-03-07, 04:18 PM
Verbose, plot driven, double length comics that include funny rules jokes and contain flashback material = Good!

Pocal
2006-03-07, 04:20 PM
Wow. I am so drawn in. I so wished I had seen it once it was fresh out, but still, it made coming home after a kinda bad day at work a helluva lot better!

RBloom0566
2006-03-07, 04:40 PM
Oh,and then the Patrick-Swayze thing: is it a reference to the movie called "Ghost"? Ahhhh, theres one or to scenes in there I'd like to see Haley in... * ;D

*LOL* That is sick on so many different levels I can't even begin to tell you. It's a STICK-FIGURE!

Mas_Sinoda
2006-03-07, 04:49 PM
Best comic in quite some time! Yay! My friend thought you were a zombie, but now you're a good zombie again!

Wrecan
2006-03-07, 04:50 PM
Hey is just struck me... "Azure City..." and the home town of the Spooky Wizards is nick named the "Emerald City..."

Azure is a shade of blue. Emeralds are green. I don't think there's a pun in there.

SteveMB
2006-03-07, 04:56 PM
Like sending paladins without ranks in Search to investigate the forest gate's destruction. *C'mon, at the LEAST they could hire a lawful good ranger or something, even if Miko wasn't available.
Well, the whole business of the gates is Top Secret....

DArKandEViL
2006-03-07, 05:05 PM
Heh heh funny
:D

belboz
2006-03-07, 05:26 PM
Azure is a shade of blue. *Emeralds are green. *I don't think there's a pun in there.


Of course, emerald is also a shade of green (the deep green most commonly associated with emeralds, in particular). So there is parallelism.

That said, I'm unconvinced it's a deliberate reference, either.

Jaime
2006-03-07, 05:31 PM
Of course, emerald is also a shade of green (the deep green most commonly associated with emeralds, in particular). So there is parallelism.

That said, I'm unconvinced it's a deliberate reference, either.


The symbolism of Azure City seems deliberate to me, except that the Wizard attempted to make himself seem wise and all-powerful to keep the people of Oz in thrall, even though he is, as Dorothy described, a humbug, whereas Shojo does the opposite: keeps the facade of being a senile old man when he really is wise and a good ruler.

Lord Fullbladder, Master of Goblins
2006-03-07, 05:42 PM
I stand by my former statement (last comic) that you are an evil, evil man, Rich. And the Judge, Jury, and possible Executioner was Roy's own father. So predictable, not even the blind rats that see the future and whisper it into my ear at night noticed it.

Randomnesh
2006-03-07, 05:51 PM
Fantastic comic. The whole thing was well pulled off, it all blended together amazingly well. And that fade effect is great. I love the way the quality of the art is progressing so much. ;D

Mr._Blinky
2006-03-07, 05:58 PM
BEST...GHOST...EVER!!!!! ;D

WeaponMasterLDO
2006-03-07, 06:03 PM
Great comic. Shows the Dark side of paladins; it's not always save bonuses and intelligent mounts.

Leo_Forestclaw
2006-03-07, 06:23 PM
Azure is a shade of blue. *Emeralds are green. *I don't think there's a pun in there.


True, but I was actually going for the parallelism of colored cities on the coast. I know I'm stretching (a lot) but it seem like a very Giant thing to do...

And that the board wouldn't figure it out until the 300th strip. ;-)

Kish
2006-03-07, 06:25 PM
Great comic. Shows the Dark side of paladins; it's not always save bonuses and intelligent mounts.
Dark side? Isn't that a rather overdramatic term for "don't have Search as a class skill"?

;)

Gralamin
2006-03-07, 06:57 PM
BEST...PLOT...TWIST...EVER :o :o :o :o :o

anyways back to normal. Great comic and once again I beleive you have poked at the messgae boards.

Sebastian
2006-03-07, 07:04 PM
A paladin must wilfully violate her code or her alignment to be stripped of paladinship. *Being controlled or manipulated by others never counts.
It count, but if the paladin is someway controled he can atone and regain his powers, if the violation was willing the is bye bye paladin, hello fighter without bonus feats permanently, but in either cases the paladin fall.

The Glyphstone
2006-03-07, 07:04 PM
Dark side? *Isn't that a rather overdramatic term for "don't have Search as a class skill"?

;)

I believe he was referring to Miko...yet again...

Sebastian
2006-03-07, 07:08 PM
Miko is the most powerful paladin in the Sapphire Guard?
She is always sent away in mission in far away lands, She must get a lot of XP that way.

Sebastian
2006-03-07, 07:10 PM
Who says it is imperfect to make it up as you go.


absolutely, It is a necessary skill for any Game master.
I mean, any good gamemaster.

Tariskat
2006-03-07, 07:13 PM
True, but I was actually going for the parallelism of colored cities on the coast. *I know I'm stretching (a lot) but it seem like a very Giant thing to do...

And that the board wouldn't figure it out until the 300th strip. * ;-)

I agree, even though I don't think there really is a connection. *Blue and green are close colors, when they are dark *(i.e. not neon!). *and in some computer programs, like Paint, isn't one the negative of the other?

Edit: No, that wasn't correct at all. Oops.

aaronbourque
2006-03-07, 07:28 PM
It count, but if the paladin is someway controled he can atone and regain his powers, if the violation was willing the is bye bye paladin, hello fighter without bonus feats permanently, but in either cases the paladin fall.
Hmm. I'd never play or gamemaster that way. I'd always allow for atonement, but not just any old quest will do. I prefer the heroic sacrifice method of redemption. That way, at least there's little argument about whether it was heartfelt or not . . .

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

Illsbane
2006-03-07, 07:29 PM
Wow. My theory that Shojo was pulling a fast one to recruit the order was actually correct. Go figure. ^^ Nice surprise to see pa Greenhilt as the 'creature of Law and Good'. It'd work; he's a spiritual being with the LG alignment (possibly), yet as a deceased human, he wouldn't be as hung up on his alignment as would an archon. ... And of course he'd take the job, if only to keep messing his eldest child about.

BURNhollywoodBURN
2006-03-07, 08:02 PM
Your "hyperlinker":
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=196
Look on panel 6
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=146

Serina_Spellbinder
2006-03-07, 08:53 PM
I bet Roy practically had a heart attack when he learned that his ghostly father and Lord Shojo were in cahoots! :o

Kresalak
2006-03-07, 09:05 PM
Oh he hasn't learned yet. And I cannot wait to see what he will do when he does learn.

Serina_Spellbinder
2006-03-07, 09:15 PM
Oh he hasn't learned yet. And I cannot wait to see what he will do when he does learn.

Surely Roy would have recognized his father's voice when he said " What? You were maybe expecting Patrick Swayze?" If he hadn't spoken, I'd probably agree with you.

nightfire8199
2006-03-07, 09:29 PM
wow...i liked that comic. alot. so that is his father? i was thinking it was someone else...wait nevermind your right

luilupino
2006-03-07, 09:39 PM
Hmm Do I sense plot coming ?

theKOT
2006-03-07, 09:44 PM
Surely Roy would have recognized his father's voice when he said " What? You were maybe expecting Patrick Swayze?" If he hadn't spoken, I'd probably agree with you.
We will probably see Roy's reaction in the next comic.

redmind0
2006-03-07, 09:44 PM
YAY!!
P L O T

Bilbo27
2006-03-07, 09:47 PM
The return of Roy's father was a complete surprise! Love it!!
Shojo is one hell of a plot hook
Whooohooooo
Elan gets to go adventuring again!!
Awesome Giant
2 weeks to 300!!!!

Wiggle
2006-03-07, 10:00 PM
Azure is a shade of blue. Emeralds are green. I don't think there's a pun in there.


The only possible pun you could stretch out of this is the fact that "Azure" sounds vaguely likely "Asia" (depending of course on your accent and enunciation). Therefore there could be a very tenuous link to Azure City's ostensibly Japanese-style milieu

TinSoldier
2006-03-07, 10:03 PM
Surely Roy would have recognized his father's voice when he said " What? You were maybe expecting Patrick Swayze?" If he hadn't spoken, I'd probably agree with you.
I was thinking that the Papa Greenhilt bit was in a different room, but now that I look at the comic again it looks like Shojo is leading them back in to the chamber to show them. So, yeah, Roy sees and hears his dad.

infiniteviking
2006-03-07, 10:13 PM
Hm, so Roy's dad is a ghost who retains all the spellcasting power he had during his life. Does that make him a spoooky wizard?
*laughing my head off here*

..You know, I can't remember whether Roy's dad ever appeared after the Xyklon quest, and I'm wondering how much he knows about what the party's been up to. Does he know the Greenhilt Sword is broken? For that matter, does he know his daughter's been kidnapped? How do ghosts get their information?

Hyrael
2006-03-07, 10:16 PM
It count, but if the paladin is someway controled he can atone and regain his powers, if the violation was willing the is bye bye paladin, hello fighter without bonus feats permanently, but in either cases the paladin fall.

Hmmm, i alwas call fallen Paladins 'Warriors with an odd skill selection', since what is a Fighter but a warrior with bonus feats? *not that your standard paladin has enough intelligence for those skills anyway.
(REMOVED BY POSTER. bloody thin-skinned mumble mumble mumble...)

"Hm, so Roy's dad is a ghost who retains all the spellcasting power he had during his life. Does that make him a spoooky wizard?"

yes, but he was awizard, remember? *unless he took Spell Mastery, he may as well be a commoner with good will saves, knowledge skills, and better weapons proficiency.

redmind0
2006-03-07, 11:05 PM
Woot! Double strip! And filled with six strips worth of funnyness!

Bonus XP for the giant!

Indeed

Yay for continuity

Steward
2006-03-07, 11:19 PM
*laughing my head off here*

..You know, I can't remember whether Roy's dad ever appeared after the Xyklon quest, and I'm wondering how much he knows about what the party's been up to. Does he know the Greenhilt Sword is broken? For that matter, does he know his daughter's been kidnapped? How do ghosts get their information?

Ghosts get their information by haunting the ladies' bathrooms in the form of towels, broken showerheads, and that one faucet that always seems to be snickering.

Gefangnis
2006-03-07, 11:21 PM
Hooray!

redmind0
2006-03-07, 11:27 PM
I love you, mister Giant.

Will you marry me?

Isn't you gender labled as male? Just asking.

Nerd-o-rama
2006-03-07, 11:34 PM
Well, that may be, but the Giant lives in Massachusetts, does he not?

*pre-emptively warns self for making a political reference.*

Anyway, the last panel was sheer, Mel Blanc-voiced awesomeness. I approve 100%.

theKOT
2006-03-07, 11:35 PM
Queens. The Giant lives in Queens, NY.
Or was that too part of the joke?
Which, I must say, I was tempted to make with San Fransisco, but thought it out of bounds.

Nerd-o-rama
2006-03-07, 11:37 PM
I coulda sworn he was a Bostonian...

Steward
2006-03-07, 11:38 PM
I coulda sworn he was a Bostonian...

Nah. He's Irish.

theKOT
2006-03-07, 11:41 PM
Why do so many people not remember this? (http://www.giantitp.com/thegiant.html)

Nerd-o-rama
2006-03-07, 11:43 PM
Because I hadn't noticed an update to that section in three years (although I now realize its up-to-date enough to mention his work for Dragon and the MMIII)? Seriously though, I did remember to check there after my last reply.

theKOT
2006-03-07, 11:45 PM
Well, it's also in his profile...... If you click on his username.

Shatteredtower
2006-03-08, 04:35 AM
Replying to Evik, who wrote:


Roy you have just been sucked into yet another side quest LOL

I don't know if something so potentially vital to the survival of the world can necessarily be deemed a side quest. ;)

And now to zimri:


As I believe I pointed out the fact that she got Belkar to the courtroom proves that it was in fact possible for her to do so.

It isn't about what she thought they deserved it's about what she was TOLD to do by her commander. A (to the best of her knowledge) lawfully given order from her(to the best of her knowledge) lawfully accepted leader.

And she obeyed it. She also made the effort from the start, even when she thought she was dealing with an evil opponent. What's the problem here? Really, there's a limit to how much one can reasonably second guess her actions and conduct.

Armchair critics are the only people with ideal conditions to analyze a situation like this.

Delgarde
2006-03-08, 05:02 AM
Miko is the most powerful paladin in the Sapphire Guard?

Not all that surprising, is it? For something this important, of course Shojo would send the most capable person he had, and Miko's a character of around 14th level with a wider range of skills than most paladins. If it wasn't for her personality, she'd be perfect for the job.

Delgarde
2006-03-08, 05:08 AM
I'm impressed, Giant you really had me stumped on how Kraagor had gotten a gate till I went back and found Lirian had made her gate a tomb for Kraagor.

Actually, it was Serini who built Kraagor's tomb, not Lirian.

Delgarde
2006-03-08, 05:24 AM
It count, but if the paladin is someway controled he can atone and regain his powers, if the violation was willing the is bye bye paladin, hello fighter without bonus feats permanently, but in either cases the paladin fall.

Not by my interpretation of the rules. According to the PHB, they lose class abilities if they *willingly* commit an evil act - no mention of any consequences if they do so unwillingly.

Personally, I'd not penalise them if they were truly unable to avoid an evil act, e.g mind control magic or similar that took away free will. But if they do so through giving in to blackmail, then I'd certainly consider requiring atonement - it was still their choice, unpalatable as it might have been.

As a note, the Atonement spell description does distinguish between deliberate and non-deliberate actions, but works for both (the former carrying an XP cost to the caster). So a Paladin who deliberately ran around killing people could still gain atonement for it, but the casting cleric is likely to make them work pretty hard for it.

Jothki
2006-03-08, 08:11 AM
I don't know if something so potentially vital to the survival of the world can necessarily be deemed a side quest. ;)

Yeah, it ties right back into Zykon, too. That's about as main plotish as you can get.

Gary_Schaper
2006-03-08, 10:14 AM
I don't know if something so potentially vital to the survival of the world can necessarily be deemed a side quest. ;)
Right. They haven't had a "main quest" for some time now. (Or they've been blissfully unaware that the "defeat Xykon" quest was incomplete. Not for long now, though.)

estradling
2006-03-08, 12:09 PM
Not by my interpretation of the rules. According to the PHB, they lose class abilities if they *willingly* commit an evil act - no mention of any consequences if they do so unwillingly.

Personally, I'd not penalise them if they were truly unable to avoid an evil act, e.g mind control magic or similar that took away free will. But if they do so through giving in to blackmail, then I'd certainly consider requiring atonement - it was still their choice, unpalatable as it might have been.

As a note, the Atonement spell description does distinguish between deliberate and non-deliberate actions, but works for both (the former carrying an XP cost to the caster). So a Paladin who deliberately ran around killing people could still gain atonement for it, but the casting cleric is likely to make them work pretty hard for it.

I remember reading or hearing somewhere that Paladins used to fall if they commit an evil act (willing or not)
If the act was not willing or accidental, or other wise excusable they could Atone.

If the act was willing then the Paladin was just plain out of luck, because of their choice.

I think it was in prior edition so it not really relevant anymore, but it did help flavor the class as the best of the Good

Jevanyn
2006-03-08, 12:15 PM
Color me duh, I just got the Patrick Swayze reference.


... sultan of snark ....

I have to get *this* on some business cards. And I have Dire Straits "Sultans of Swing" in my head, thanks!

Elurindel
2006-03-08, 02:04 PM
I KNEW something was up with that "being of pure Law and Good"! It just didn't seem zealous enough to be true. I also had a hunch that the OOTS would have to go and check on the gates, but I thought that might be their sentence for destroying one of them. Oh well, can't win them all.

Tanikova
2006-03-08, 02:09 PM
Why do so many people not remember this? (http://www.giantitp.com/thegiant.html)


because in June of 2005 he moved from Queens to the Philadelphia area as stated on the home page news and it also references the big dresser or furniture teasing he always gets

(6/24/05)

OK, so here's what's going on: For anyone who doesn't know, in addition to working on OOTS, for the last two months I have also been moving from Queens, NY, to the Philadelphia area. This week was our last big furniture-moving trip, on Wednesday and Thursday. While moving a Ludicrously Heavy Dresser on Thursday night, I lost my grip on it and it bent my right hand back in a way that nature did not intend for it to go. I thought I had broken it, and didn't return to Philly Thursday night—and as a result, didn't complete Friday's comic. I went to the doctor instead in NY on Friday.

Melnor
2006-03-08, 02:28 PM
YAY!!
P *L *O *T

By George, the boy's right! We just had the plot move seriously along! YAY!! *is extremely excited*

zimri
2006-03-08, 02:55 PM
And now to zimri:


And she obeyed it. She also made the effort from the start, even when she thought she was dealing with an evil opponent. What's the problem here? Really, there's a limit to how much one can reasonably second guess her actions and conduct.

Armchair critics are the only people with ideal conditions to analyze a situation like this.

Yes she did but she had to be told by her commander to not mete out justice on her own after they crashed through the window. When they landed in the courtroom together her mission was over. "I have delivered you to judgement may you be redeemed or burn in the abyss" or some such paladin-y monologue would have been appropriate not a smite evil with the words "die evildoer"

in the portion of my post you quoted I was replying to someone who had said that they got what they deserved. Once Belkar was in the courtroom she was no longer lawfully empowered to determine what it was he deserved. That onus fell to Shojo and the BOPL&G who turned out to be roy's dad.

Solara
2006-03-08, 03:47 PM
I remember reading or hearing somewhere that Paladins used to fall if they commit an evil act (willing or not)
If the act was not willing or accidental, or other wise excusable they could Atone.

If the act was willing then the Paladin was just plain out of luck, because of their choice.

I think it was in prior edition so it not really relevant anymore, but it did help flavor the class as the best of the Good


Like I said earlier, the Book of Exalted Deeds just about every Vow a paladin can take has:


If you intentionally break your vow, you immediately and irrevocably lose the benefit of this feat. You may not take another feat to replace it. If you break your vow as a result of magical compulsion, you lose the benefit of this feat until you perform a suitable penance and receive an atonement spell.

...or something similar tacked onto the end of it. However, as far as I know the whole thing is completely optional and not the standard by any means. Though in the (Admittedly pretty homebrew) game I play, once a paladin intentionally commits an evil act their powers are gone forever. None of this crap about, "Oh, you got pissed off and massacred an entire village? Okay, go find the Holy Relic of Blahblahblah and return in to the temple, and everything will be okay again. Except for those villagers you murdered, of course, but they were just worthless NPCs so big deal."

If a paladin unintentionally does breaks a vow, there's no real penalty, but they're at least expected to feel really guilty, try to make amends and angst about it for awhile.

Zantetsuken_Kokoro
2006-03-08, 04:25 PM
Well, while there's nothing I can do about the official rules, but that sorta sucks.

It more or less puts the paladin at the mercy of the DM. The paladin has to be able to count on the DM to not put them in a no-win situation like being charmed.

And no, don't anyone give me that whole "the players are always at the mercy of the DM" bs. Only control freak space cow fetishist DMs think that way. That's not to say that I always go easy on my player, but I don't post to message boards and try to make everyone feel inferior for not celebrating smarmy "I am your God" control freak DM bs behavior.

estradling
2006-03-08, 05:17 PM
Well, while there's nothing I can do about the official rules, but that sorta sucks.

It more or less puts the paladin at the mercy of the DM. The paladin has to be able to count on the DM to not put them in a no-win situation like being charmed.

And no, don't anyone give me that whole "the players are always at the mercy of the DM" bs. Only control freak space cow fetishist DMs think that way. That's not to say that I always go easy on my player, but I don't post to message boards and try to make everyone feel inferior for not celebrating smarmy "I am your God" control freak DM bs behavior.


DM shouldn't be out to put the screws into the PC.
However they are often call on to control the Big Bad Villain who is going to try to do exactly that..

Let's anti magic the mage.
Let's silence the bard.
Let's calm the barbarian.
Let's attack the warrior when he is asleep.
Let's charm the paladin.

All of these if successful can lead to very bad place for the player of said character. I don't see the paladin being anymore vulnerable to the mercy of the DM then any other character even with the no evil requirement.

dpm
2006-03-08, 05:46 PM
.I wonder if following Shojo's orders and restraining herself from attacking them all in the courtroom would have been such a priority if she knew her 'liege' wasn't even lawful.

I don't think that necessarily follows. His alignment is not Lawful Something (my guess would be Neutral Good) but that doesn't mean he cannot act in a "lawful" manner, especially if doing so would balance out chaotic actions taking place outside his sphere of control.

ok
dpm

dpm
2006-03-08, 05:48 PM
In comic #163 V mentioned that a ghost would retain the powers he had as a mortal...

I see no reason to believe that V was not bluffing. Just because he said those words does not mean that they are true, nor that he believed them to be true. He was about to be killed, and therefore had incentive to say anything that might prevent that.

ok
dpm