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Tyrael
2007-10-23, 08:57 PM
So, my DM and I got into a debate over dinner over whether monks were underpowered. I pointed out that everything they could do, someone else can do better. We kept talking, and we agreed to do a grudge match. The rules are these:

Level 20 fight.
I am allowed to use any single base fighter-type class (no multiclassing) from any WotC 3.5 book.
No Tome of Battle.
Wealth by Level (760,000gp).
Fighter-type classes are defined as :
--Full Base Attack Bonus
--d10 or d12 HP
To keep it more of a class battle instead of an item battle, we are only allowed magical weapons and armor. No homebrew stuff, sticking strictly with existing enhancements and enchantments.

The terrain: Flat 1,000ft c 1,000ft field in perfect daylight.



This battle will be held Friday night, so there's a bit of time crunch.


What do you guys think?

Dairun Cates
2007-10-23, 09:05 PM
Well, I think it's not exactly fair to get help in an optimization forum, but you could always be mean and just go the whole mounted combat route with a paladin's mount. Make the mount fast enough that he can't catch up to you from ride by attack without using two move actions or running.

Solo
2007-10-23, 09:12 PM
Psywarrior?

Tyrael
2007-10-23, 09:15 PM
....Oh man, that's genius. He didn't say anything about psionics. That' evilly genius. I like it.

Edit: No go, it's a 3/4 BAB class, not full BAB.



By the way, he just confirmed that in terms of stats, we're using a 90-point-buy system (slightly homebrew, where each point added is a 1-1 ratio), but you can't have any less than 10 in a stat.


I've looked over the Monk, and the Empty Body thing worries me. 20 rounds of etherealness? Not good. Ideas?

Anxe
2007-10-23, 09:15 PM
Throwing axe barbarian. If he tries to use his movement on you, chuck axes at him. If he comes in close and flurries, you can whip out a vorpal greataxe and chop off his head.

What he's going to do: Spring attack you and deflect any ranged attacks. Try to negate this somehow.

EDIT: You don't need to worry about etherealness. He can't hurt you and you can't hurt him.

Jasdoif
2007-10-23, 09:16 PM
Wait, you can't have magic items except for weapons and armor? That's not much like a standard D&D game....

Is your DM a proponent of the VoP monk, by any chance?

Tyrael
2007-10-23, 09:18 PM
He was going back and forth over VoP, but I think he decided not to. He might go back on that.

The main reason he disallowed other items is that he didn't want someone whipping out a Staff of Destruction or having an Amulet of Summon Monster 9 or something.


Edit: However, he said nothing about races. Or feats. Maybe something that gets me reach? Or flight? How about a Raptoran Knight or something?

Edit: He said nothing about templates, either. A Winged Thri-Keen sounds dead sexy.

Sucrose
2007-10-23, 09:21 PM
For a large, level arena, I'm inclined to agree with the poster above. Specifically, you should look into a Paladin (since they get a mount for free) and couple it with
Mounted Combat ->Ride-By-Attack -> Spirited Charge,

And add some kick with Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush (as a prerequisite for the last), and Shock Trooper's Heedless Charge (Complete Warrior). Use a lance two-handed.

First round, charge like a lunatic, ride away as far as possible. He won't be able to strike at you more than once, while you swing at least twice thanks to a lance's reach and he won't be getting absolutely sick Power Attack multipliers.

Alternatively, you could do much the same thing with a Barbarian. Just switch out the Mounted chain for Leap Attack from Complete Adventurer. If you can afford a half-decent Dex, add in Combat Reflexes and Robilar's Gambit (PHB II). He'll hit you, but you can soak it, and your return swings will reduce him to a fine red mist.

If you feel like being a cheesy bastard, throw the Complete Champion Lion-Totem variant into the picture. With this case, I recommend the Celestial Armor from DMG, since it'll let you keep up with his mobility more easily. I would also recommend using a greatsword in this case; reach won't help you any.

Incidentally, you should almost certainly recommend that he get some optimization help as well. Otherwise, I agree that it's unfair.

I would go for the Barbarian myself; that way, he can't whine about you not being able to normally go adventuring in spaces sized for Medium creatures.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-10-23, 09:22 PM
Barbarian. Power Attack. Leap Attack. Combat Brute for Heedless Charge. Robilar's Gambit (or Karmic Strike if you must). Combat Reflexes maybe, Improved Initiative to help make Initiative a lock. Proceed to strike for 1d12+eleventy billion damage, hitting on a 2.

Enzario
2007-10-23, 09:25 PM
Don't worry about the etherealness in this battle. Unless he has healing potions/bufferoonies (which I'm pretty sure are disallowed by the rules you set out) he won't be able to do anything meaningful during the time that he's ethereal (unless an ethereal person can attack a corporeal? I don't think so). The main problem with taking down a monk would be his high saves and AC (oh, and the 5 iterative attacks @ 20th level w/ no penalty don't hurt). A monk's AC is going to be hard to hit anyway, so concentrate on stuff that might mitigate thatholdit... no wonderous items *coughacandstatboostingitemscough*??!? Charge the bastard. Any number of builds might work, but I'd personally favor a greataxe-wielding, charge-oriented barbarian. Or you could go duskblade.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-10-23, 09:29 PM
IDEA! Did Duskblade have full BAB? And did he have blink or anything that allows for incorporeality?

Tyrael
2007-10-23, 09:33 PM
These are great, but any idea on how to counter the etherealness of Empty Body and the Dimension Door-ness of Abundant Step?

Edit: Ninja'd. However, looking at the Ethereal entry, it doesn't explicitly SAY that you can't attack stuff on the Material Plane.

Jasdoif
2007-10-23, 09:33 PM
Did Duskblade have full BAB?Yes; but Duskblades have d8 hit dice, which doesn't meet the "d10 or d12" requirement.

Solo
2007-10-23, 09:54 PM
What about Hexblades?

Green Bean
2007-10-23, 09:56 PM
Edit: Ninja'd. However, looking at the Ethereal entry, it doesn't explicitly SAY that you can't attack stuff on the Material Plane.

It duplicates the Etherealness spell, which gives characters the Ethereal effect, which includes:


An ethereal creature canít affect the Material Plane, not even magically.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-10-23, 09:56 PM
Or any class the gets incorporeability. See, monk fists are treated as magic weps ONLY FOR OVERCOMING DR. So, if you go incorporeal, he can't hurt you much or little.

Sucrose
2007-10-23, 09:56 PM
These are great, but any idea on how to counter the etherealness of Empty Body and the Dimension Door-ness of Abundant Step?

Edit: Ninja'd. However, looking at the Ethereal entry, it doesn't explicitly SAY that you can't attack stuff on the Material Plane.

It says it elsewhere. Someone will come along with a link or quote.
Knew it.

As for Abundant Step, it takes a standard action, and once he goes there, he can do nothing until the next round (barring the Sun School feat, which still only gives him one attack), meaning that he has just wasted a round of both of your lives. He also can do it only once per day. In short, you really shouldn't care.

Jasdoif
2007-10-23, 09:59 PM
What about Hexblades?Ahh! There we go, Hexblade is full BAB and d10 hit dice. It qualifies.

Tyrael
2007-10-23, 10:00 PM
I just found out that Paladins can cast SPELLS. Specifically, they get an AMAZING Spell Compendium spell called Rhino's Rush that DOUBLES charge damage. Yay!

Edit: Hexblade, eh? Lemme look that up...PHBII, right?

13_CBS
2007-10-23, 10:02 PM
AFAIK, as long as you don't do something really stupid or roll something really badly (say, a horrible Fort save roll on a Quivering Palm attack), you will probably win. Monks are good at surviving, running, and jumping. If you can lock down his mobility and overcome his AC, you're good.

Jasdoif
2007-10-23, 10:05 PM
Edit: Hexblade, eh? Lemme look that up...PHBII, right?Complete Warrior, actually.

Tequila Sunrise
2007-10-23, 10:10 PM
Level 20 fight.
I am allowed to use any single base fighter-type class (no multiclassing) from any WotC 3.5 book.
No Tome of Battle.
Wealth by Level (760,000gp).
Fighter-type classes are defined as :
--Full Base Attack Bonus
--d10 or d12 HP
To keep it more of a class battle instead of an item battle, we are only allowed magical weapons and armor. No homebrew stuff, sticking strictly with existing enhancements and enchantments.

If you two really want this to be a class battle instead of an X battle, you should both be restricted to non-templated humans and the most basic and commonplace magic items. You don't have to get into homebrew items to get really wacky stuff that any given character probably wouldn't have in a real game.

Temp
2007-10-23, 10:27 PM
Hexblade's less than spectacular and its spells and key class feature are Save-based. If you don't have a caster to combine high save DCs with your slight save debuffs, you lose most of the benefits of the class.

A standard Charge-built Barbarian/Paladin will probably beat him pretty easily. If you plan on just going hit-for-hit (he's got Flurry; he'll probably want to push you into this approach) a Duskblade would be nasty (Empowered/Maximized/Arcane Thesis-ed Shocking Grasps do nasty things on full attacks. Especially conjoined with Arcane Strike and Power Attack).

[Edit:] Oh right, the d10/d12 thing. Forget I wrote anything about Duskblades.

Sure shows me not to raze pillage quaint New England tourist-traps when I should be reading the OP.

Guy_Whozevl
2007-10-23, 10:52 PM
You can do many things to win; it's almost hard not to.

1. Leap Attacking Barbarian or Fighter can easily win with a Valorous and Wrathful Healing Weapon.
2. If I remember correctly, the Knight can't freaking die at level 20, as long as you spend the Knight's challenge uses. With a ton of turns to live, you can figure out something; even exchanging blow for blow should result in a win for you. Just watch the Fortitude save for stuff like Pain Touch and Staggering Blow; that will lock you down.
3. You can go Hexblade and abuse Polymorph. Especially useful if you are an outsider, undead, or a construct race; two out of those three negate a Monk's most viable asset, Stunning Fist.
4. Be a Fighter with pure archery feats, such as Improved Manyshot, Ranged Weapon Mastery, etc. Grab Improved Initiative to go first. All you need is a Splitting Bow and you can kill the Monk from afar without worrying about all your projectiles being deflected.
5. For extreme cheese, get Leadership with any melee class and have Shadow cohorts and followers. Drain the Monk dry and coup de grace him away.
6. A Swashbuckler might be able to pull it off via their Weakening Strike class ability; go crazy with a keen rapier/elven thinblade. Not the most effective way to win, but it seems kinda stylish.

On a side note, what classes would fall under the category warrior, as listed by the OP?
So far, I got: Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, Hexblade, CW Samurai (shudders...if you win with this, your DM has to admit Monks are underpowered), Swashbuckler, and Knight. I'm not sure if that new base class from Complete Psionic that's like a psychic paladin qualifies.

Machete
2007-10-23, 11:26 PM
Catfolk Scout with Catfolk Pounce and Flying Kick to add damage to unarmed and superior unarmed attack(YES ITS TOME OF BATTLE, but I doubt your friend will pass up such a raise on your challenge as "I can make a better nonmonk unarmed attacker".

Gobble every bit of speed you can get from the various "make a really fast character" threads.

Beat a monk with your own unarmed damage. Delicious.

Gharyn's Monastic Array from Magic Item Compendium will pretty much doom the monk.

Ryshan Ynrith
2007-10-23, 11:28 PM
Orc Lion totem barbarian with Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, and Heedless Charge. Attack 4 times on a charge, each for (2d6+1.5*Str+60)*2 damage, at an obscene AB/damage. That should do the trick.

Aquillion
2007-10-24, 12:36 AM
By the way, he just confirmed that in terms of stats, we're using a 90-point-buy system (slightly homebrew, where each point added is a 1-1 ratio), but you can't have any less than 10 in a stat.This is actually slightly in his favor, since monks suffer from so much MAD... a less high-powered variant for stats (specifically, one that made it harder to get multiple stats to 18) would favor other classes much more.

Not that it matters.

Skyserpent
2007-10-24, 01:36 AM
Pure Fighter, Weapon Supremacy, Grapple, take 10 on hitting him with a greatsword in grapple, wear heavy armor and take improved grapple. His mobility goes down the drain and as a Monk, he's not hitting you much anyway, what with his crappy attack bonuses.

Or, Trip-style fighter, Spiked Chain, combat reflexes, Karmic Strike, that other one where you hit them when they miss (Which'll be damn often)

babson99
2007-10-24, 01:58 AM
You can probably do it unarmed, or sort of unarmed, with 20 levels of fighter.

Key feats:
Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater WF, and Greater WS for both unarmed strike (or spiked gauntlet) and grappling.
Power Attack
Earth's Embrace
Clever Wrestling
Close-Quarters Fighting
Two-Weapon Fighting
Shield Bash
The feat that lets you bash with a shield and retain its AC in the same round

Put on full plate mail with enchanted spikes and grab a heavy shield too. (I don't believe there are any restrictions on grappling with shields, though you may want to clear this with your DM.) Punch his daylights out with Power Attack while he struggles to hit your high AC, then grab him in a bear hug and let the spikes in your armor tear him up.

Tyrael
2007-10-24, 05:25 AM
The Paladin damage is ridiculous. Can someone check my math for me?

+20BAB gets shunted to Power Attack, which is shunted to AC for -20AC.

Two-handed weapon turns that +20 damage into +40.

Spirited Charge with a Lance triples the overall damage, turning it into 3d8+(3x1.5)STR+120.

Leap Attack, whose errata still allows triple damage for two-handed weapons, turns the overall damage into 6d8+(6x1.5)STR+360.

The Rhino's Rush spell doubles all damage from the next charge in the turn, turns the overall damage into 12d8+(12x1.5)STR+720.


So, if you do a full Mounted Spirited Charging Leap Attacking Rhino Rushing Power Attacking Charge with a Lance, you can deal (assuming 20 STR) 852-936 damage.

That can't be right.

Skjaldbakka
2007-10-24, 05:34 AM
If he thinks he is optimizing a monk, his AC will be rediculous, but he won't be able to do any good damage, because his strength will suck. He will have a really high wisdom, a really high dex, and weapon finesse.

Look for ways to get more attacks than him, keep your Fort save high, find a way to negate a failed save on a nat 1.

I would run with a spiked chain and an animated shield. The fight will probably be a long one, so don't go barbarian unless you burn a few feats on Extend Rage. His AC can easily force you to fish for 20s, so what you want to do is return the favor. Crank up your AC. Use Power Attack and Combat Expertise (you need a 20 to hit, so penalties to hit don't matter anymore).

Move each round to keep him from full-attacking. He will have tumble, so you won't be able to take AoO unless you find a feat to negate tumble.

If you make one attack each round, PAing for full, and he makes one attack each round, due to having to move up to you, you should be fine, because you're 5% chance of hitting will do more damage than his 5% chance of hitting.

You might want to use an animated weapon to increase your attacks/rnd.

Also, don't forget an item to let you fly, because he might. You just win if you can fly, and he can't.

The Glyphstone
2007-10-24, 05:37 AM
I think the "abstract multipliers" rule - don't remember its name exactly = comes into play. Where doubling a double isn't a quadruple, it only counts as a triple.

Starting at 3d8+(3x1.5)Str +120.
Leap Attack adds another multiplier (triple = quadruple) = 4d8+(4x1.5)Str+160.
Rhino's Rush adds another multiplier (quadruple = quintuple?) = 5d8+(5x1.5)Str+200.

So it's actually closer to (assuming 20 Str) 242-277 damage.

deadseashoals
2007-10-24, 05:40 AM
The Paladin damage is ridiculous. Can someone check my math for me?

+20BAB gets shunted to Power Attack, which is shunted to AC for -20AC.

Two-handed weapon turns that +20 damage into +40.

Spirited Charge with a Lance triples the overall damage, turning it into 3d8+(3x1.5)STR+120.

Leap Attack, whose errata still allows triple damage for two-handed weapons, turns the overall damage into 6d8+(6x1.5)STR+360.

The Rhino's Rush spell doubles all damage from the next charge in the turn, turns the overall damage into 12d8+(12x1.5)STR+720.


So, if you do a full Mounted Spirited Charging Leap Attacking Rhino Rushing Power Attacking Charge with a Lance, you can deal (assuming 20 STR) 852-936 damage.

That can't be right.

It's ridiculous, but not quite that ridiculous.

Leap Attack triples (instead of doubles) your Power Attack damage if you make a Jump check (questionable if you can do this while mounted). So, you'll be dealing 1d8+60+1.5*STR with a two handed lance.

Spirited Charge with a lance then triples this damage. So, you'll be dealing 3d8+180+4.5*STR.

Rhino's Rush doubles the damage. However, you don't double the total multiplied damage, as multipliers to damage add in D&D 3.5 (easiest to think of them as +100% damage, not 2x damage). So, you'd be dealing 4d8+240+6*STR. A lot anyway, and enough to drop practically anything outside of a wyrm dragon.

deadseashoals
2007-10-24, 05:46 AM
As for the contest, I like what Guy_Whozevl said. You can win in practically any way. It's really up to you how you want to win. The easiest and cheesiest way would be to go (Lesser) Aasimar Hexblade and abuse the tar out of polymorph, but I assume you want to actually prove a point here. So I like the idea of building a faster, better armored unarmed fighter than the monk :smallbiggrin:

lord_khaine
2007-10-24, 06:02 AM
but are you proving anything when you asks for help from a board while he apperently makes his monk alone?
and it even looks like he isnt very experienced making monks if he agreed to only allowing magical weapons and armor.

Hyfigh
2007-10-24, 08:03 AM
It's ridiculous, but not quite that ridiculous.

Leap Attack triples (instead of doubles) your Power Attack damage if you make a Jump check (questionable if you can do this while mounted). So, you'll be dealing 1d8+60+1.5*STR with a two handed lance.

Spirited Charge with a lance then triples this damage. So, you'll be dealing 3d8+180+4.5*STR.

Rhino's Rush doubles the damage. However, you don't double the total multiplied damage, as multipliers to damage add in D&D 3.5 (easiest to think of them as +100% damage, not 2x damage). So, you'd be dealing 4d8+240+6*STR. A lot anyway, and enough to drop practically anything outside of a wyrm dragon.

And thats not even the 'quite that ridiculous'.

Lion Totem Barbarian Alternate Class feature allows you to sacrifice your fast movement for pounce. Pounce means that you can full attack on a charge.

Now one issue that you'd need to deal with is his movement speed. The problem he has with his movement speed is that he still needs to be within range to attack you (as someone suggested Spring Attacks). This means he'll be within charging distance even without a mount.

I'm tossing my vote in for the Barbarian with Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, and Power Attack. Try to get the feat Battle Jump (Unaproachable East pg 42). That'll double your damage. You could also use Headless Charge instead of Battle Jump (both are race dependant) for a similar effect.

Top that with a Valorus weapon and your dealing nearly the same per hit damage as the Paladin with Rhino Charge, but you're also making a full attack.

Edit: I thought about this a little more this morning. Either type of build is going to be genuinely mroe powerful than this monk. The Barbarian would kill the monk in the first round. The Paladin would have a very good chance of killing him the first round, if not the monks dead in the second.

Telonius
2007-10-24, 10:08 AM
Make sure "Locked Gauntlet" is on your equipment list. That will make him cry.

Just Alex
2007-10-24, 11:11 AM
I kinda like the idea of going straight fighter (one of the weakest things to do), then take Weapon Focus, Specialization, Supremacy Greatsword, then take Improved Unarmed and Improved Grapple. Ready an action for him attacking you, you grapple him, he never breaks out of the grapple (barring horrible rolls). Or, even funnier, take the Supremacy tree into Longbow and use that in a grapple. Logic be damned, that'd be funny.

Aquillion
2007-10-24, 04:15 PM
If he thinks he is optimizing a monk, his AC will be rediculous, but he won't be able to do any good damage, because his strength will suck. He will have a really high wisdom, a really high dex, and weapon finesse.Look at the stat system they're using again:

By the way, he just confirmed that in terms of stats, we're using a 90-point-buy system (slightly homebrew, where each point added is a 1-1 ratio), but you can't have any less than 10 in a stat.
The monk somehow convinced him to accept an insane 90-point 1:1 buy. That's enough to max wis, dex, and con, while still putting 16 points in str (or however you want to arrange it). 18 + 18 + 18 + 16 + 10 + 10 = 90

deadseashoals
2007-10-24, 06:17 PM
Here's something else... Become a paladin and take a griffon mount. Take a lance, and go down the Mounted Combat tree out to Spirited Charge, taking Rideby Attack along the way. Now have your mount hover 10 feet above the ground like so:



............................................
............................................
....GG......................................
....GG......................................
............................................
......................M.....................


Every turn, charge the monk, attacking from the nearest square and continuing along a straight line:



............................................
............................................
....GG....->.......GG........->......GG.....
....GG....->.......GG........->......GG.....
.....................x......................
......................M.....................


Since there's no magic items, unless he's a Raptoran or a Dragonborn or some other winged race, he's not going to be able to catch you. Plus, you can still do all of the paladin charge cheese.

Temp
2007-10-24, 06:35 PM
I'd say the Grappler route wins and the Polymorph/Mounted Combat strategies lose*.

You want to show him a Monk being beaten at its own game, not something that can be disregarded with a "Oh, well. Polymorph's broken anyway" or a "Well, you'd never fit that mount in a dungeon so it doesn't matter."


*Even though they completely slaughter the Monk

Glyphic
2007-10-24, 07:08 PM
You could try your hardest to make him eat his biscuit by using an NPC warrior class >.>

Jasdoif
2007-10-24, 07:11 PM
You could try your hardest to make him eat his biscuit by using an NPC warrior class >.>Ironically, the Warrior class doesn't meet the requirements: It has d8 hit dice.

Tyrael
2007-10-24, 07:15 PM
I'm a bit leery of the Grappling route. Full attacks are nasty, especially if it's a magical monk weapon with reach and Flurry. I think I'll probably go with the Lancer thing and get a Hippogriff as a holy mount. Take off, buff, fly in, charge, fly out. Play Keep Away until he dies.

One Question: Does Leap Attack work with a flying mount? It's technically not jumping anywhere...

Tyrael
2007-10-24, 07:16 PM
Here's something else... Become a paladin and take a griffon mount. Take a lance, and go down the Mounted Combat tree out to Spirited Charge, taking Rideby Attack along the way. Now have your mount hover 10 feet above the ground like so:[snip]

I like it.

Is a Griffon better than a Hippogriff?

Sucrose
2007-10-24, 07:18 PM
I think that it technically works, but it is a bit cheesy, and probably not RAI; that's why I advised using it as a separate strategy. I still vote the Barbarian route. That way, even if he grapples you, your Raging strength should be more than enough to remove him.

I also recommend Heavy Fortification, or something to make you immune to crits entirely, because he might just decide to count on rolling a twenty, and dual wield flurry with Vorpal Kamas or something.

Tyrael
2007-10-24, 07:35 PM
Actually, the Grappler could be viable, now that I think about it. Just ready an action to Grapple him when he gets within 30ft or something, thereby bypassing his silly Flurries.

Alternately, a pure-Fighter Spiked Chain Tripmaster build could work, right? Just pump STR and DEX to obscene levels, then ready an action to trip him when he gets within reach. Next turn, he tries to stand up and provokes an AoO trip. So he just keeps sitting there and standing up and down until he dies.

Note to self. Make my weapons Ghost Touch. He's sure to spam his Ghost Step.

martyboy74
2007-10-24, 08:18 PM
Do you play with the rule that a natural 1 is a critical fumble? If so, make sure that you have a way to avoid killing yourself if that happens.

Jasdoif
2007-10-24, 10:26 PM
Note to self. Make my weapons Ghost Touch. He's sure to spam his Ghost Step.Ghost Step? Have you been looking at the Ninja class recently, by any chance?

Ghost touch weapons won't do you any good against Empty Body...or Ghost Step, for that matter. Ghost touch weapons negate the miss chance from attack incorporeal foes. They do nothing to help you attack an ethereal foe.

adanedhel9
2007-10-24, 10:27 PM
Alternately, a pure-Fighter Spiked Chain Tripmaster build could work, right? Just pump STR and DEX to obscene levels, then ready an action to trip him when he gets within reach. Next turn, he tries to stand up and provokes an AoO trip. So he just keeps sitting there and standing up and down until he dies.


Doesn't quite work in RAW, as AoO occur before the event that triggers them. You can't trip someone who's already on the ground, as someone who is about to stand up is - so no tripping on AoO's caused b standing. You can ready to action to trip him if he stands up, though, but that limits you to one attack a round.



Note to self. Make my weapons Ghost Touch. He's sure to spam his Ghost Step.

Ghost Step? Isn't that a ninja ability? Or do you mean Empty Body? If you do, note that ethereal doesn't mean incorporeal - ghost touch doesn't help you here. Not that it matters, since the monk won't have any way to attack you while ethereal, for the same reason that you won't be able to attack him.

Grynning
2007-10-25, 01:08 AM
I know that mounted combat seems agreed to be the best way to kill a monk, but I feel that to truly show all the monk fanboys that Full BAB classes win, you should go with something a bit more up close and personal.
My suggestion is to go with spiky Fighter/Grappler. However, I would suggest the addition of the Blood-spiked charger feat and the Reaping Mauler PrC.

Blood spiked charger means you have a shield to help your AC, and if you fight defensively while he's flurrying (which you should), your offense will be even stronger (I really like this feat).

Also, if there are going to be any walls nearby, take Dungeon Crasher from the Dungeonscape book. I don't have it on hand, but as I recall the wall slam attack is obscenely damaging, and ends with the two of you in the same space. So they have to provoke an AoO (getting out of your space, pretty sure you threaten your own space) and nothing says an AoO can't be a grapple attempt. Make him a Goliath or Half-giant if you can for powerful build grappling pain, as well as to enhance the Spiked Slam attack from BSC

Of course, this doesn't solve the ethereal or dim. door problem, but again, barring the Sun School feat, that can't really be used to hurt you directly.

Edit: Just remembered you can't use PrC's, sorry.

Armads
2007-10-25, 03:38 AM
If you can, play a raptoran or get a way to fly (like an appropriate mount). Play a fighter or something, and wield a bow and shoot him to death with manyshot, avoiding a full attack whenever you can.

Chronos
2007-10-25, 03:19 PM
There is one useful thing the monk can do while ethereal: Wholeness of Body. As soon as he's taken 40 or more damage, he can go ethereal, heal back up, and then come material again. Which still leaves you the advantage (you'll have at least a 1hp/level lead on him to begin with), but it'll at least make the fight take a little longer.

Jasdoif
2007-10-25, 03:25 PM
Consider running the use of mounts past the guy first. You're trying to prove a fighter-type is better then a monk, afterall; if he thinks your mount does all the work then he could argue that even a commoner could do the same thing. He might remain unconvinced.


In general, my main concern would be if he took Freezing the Lifeblood, from Complete Warrior. Fail the Fort save and you're paralyzed for at least two rounds, might get yourself coup de graced. The odds of failing the save might be fairly small, but he'll have 20 chances to try it if he's Monk 20.

Cobra
2007-10-26, 01:02 AM
One Question: Does Leap Attack work with a flying mount? It's technically not jumping anywhere...

Generally leap attack and the mounted combat feats don't/shouldn't stack.

Funkyodor
2007-10-26, 08:27 AM
Just some observations so you don't forget it. If you are going the flying route, monks can easily jump 15+ feet at lvl 20 if they put points in Jump, have a decent STR bonus, and get a little running start, (20 from skills and stats, 24 from extra move = 44 divided by 4 gives you 11 feet without rolling and not couting body height for another 8 feet or bonuses from feats like Run and Skill Focus). They are the real Spud Webb's of D&D.

Power attack/Leap attack + Spirited Charge + Heedless Charge with a lance gives you a LVL times 5 damage bonus (or +100). The power attack multiplier turns into the leap attack multiplier of 3 plus the lance multiplier of 3 from spirited charge gives you a 5 times multipler using D&D's additive multiplier rules. If you drop the leap attack it only worsens by one multiple (or +20) to become +80 damage and you don't have to figure out leaping distance and determine the mounts jumping skill, etc...

Um... Good luck and hope he doesn't just kill your flying mount with some Mortal Kombat style jump kick since your mounts AC will probably be worse than yours I'm betting... Oh wait, forgot that you could give barding to flying mounts and be armored yourself and still come in under its' weight threshold for flight... That does bring up a question, does heedless charges penalty to AC affect your mount as well if you are using it for the charge? I really am iffy on the whole mounted combat stuff in 3.5.

Sucrose
2007-10-26, 08:30 AM
does heedless charges penalty to AC affect your mount as well if you are using it for the charge? I really am iffy on the whole mounted combat stuff in 3.5. Semi-irrelevant, as mounted combat lets him replace his mount's AC (even if it becomes horrifically abysmal) with a Ride check for one attack (all that the monk's gonna get.)