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Sequinox
2007-10-24, 08:18 PM
Hi. I'm creating a dungeon (3 floors down so far) and I was wondering if anyone had any advice. This is an open ended thread for people if they want to talk about how they design their dungeons, the ideas they have for them, and the general idea of the dungeons they like. Do you like corridor-filled dungeons? Room after room? Giant hallways with doors to rooms and smaller hallways lining the sides?

Anyway, just post your ideas here.

Altharis
2007-10-25, 05:50 AM
Personally, I like longish warm-up dungeons, and short real dungeons. By this I mean, for example, a small demonic cult shrine in a large sewer system. Finding the shrine takes half the dungeon time, and the actual shrine takes up the other half.

I also like to plan my dungeons from the viewpoint of the inhabitants. To continue my example, instead of having the dungeon suit the order the players will visit its rooms in (because they never EVER follow your plans anyway.), I plan my demon-shrine according to its inhabitants. First goes the guards sitting in little niches in the rock, so that they are functionally invisible to the players. Then you have the meditation hall, because new pilgrims will want to stroll through, smelling the incense and getting into the groove before the praying begins. Then we arrive at the main temple, big and cone shaped (nod to dragon shamans and the 30-ft-cone-using ilk) with praying, congregations of fanatics, and a high-level cleric who summons a demon and then leaves. At the back, you have a room for the acolytes and pilgrims who wish to sleep over, and the high priests room complete with summoned demons and an escape tunnel for the priest to use.

Then again, I'm a bit of a hypocrite and make all my adventures differently.
Altharis

Umarth
2007-10-25, 12:52 PM
Don't forget bathrooms or chamber pots.

Monsters may also have a particular spot they like to read magazines in.

Yeril
2007-10-25, 01:10 PM
Don't forget to add alot of secret passages and switches for getting around traps, If whoever built the dungeon intends to ever go there again aren't going to build traps they are going to fall into, secret doors, and switches so they can get around easily, but somone who doesn't know their way around wouldn't.

Kenbert
2007-10-25, 02:25 PM
Keep in mind how the dungeon is currently used -- the people who frequent it will have items and rooms that are suited to their purposes, not random magical items. The more you can make the PCs believe it's actually a real dungeon rather than something you've cooked up, the more they'll enjoy it, even if it means forgoing some cooler stuff.

Sequinox
2007-10-25, 05:08 PM
Thanks for the advice. If you don't mind, altharis, I might use the demon shrine idea. I can imagine it now... The barbarian charging in headlong only to be fried by some insane cleric (no offense to UN-insane clerics of demons...) and the Wu Jen shouting that it would be impossible to be any more stupid, while the cleric commented that they might find a couple of interesting magic items...:smallamused:
Again, thanks.

reorith
2007-10-25, 11:07 PM
just remember a good dungeon should feature a variety of challenges. throw in a couple opportunities to let specific characters shine. something involving turning or knowledge religion for the cleric or a logic puzzle for the wu jen and so on.

Umarth
2007-10-26, 08:07 AM
If you have a very intelligent monster/NPC who's designed the dungeon come up with a few traps or surprises that can easily be put anywhere into the dungeon. Then you can add these traps on the fly when you see a good opportunity. This helps to reflect the superior intellect of the creature having predicted the scenario happening.

Triaxx
2007-10-26, 09:34 AM
Additionally, if you're going to have monsters, the dungeon needs room to hold them. If you've got intelligent foes, (and intelligent builders, presumably), then the entire structure should have a defensive nature to it. End at least three rooms in cone shaped structures. I've caught whole parties with this. In one instance the rogue advanced stealthly towards the exit, and was warned that he failed an automatic check. He took another step, and set off the Cone of Cold trap I'd laid down earlier. Killed him.

Use long hallways capped by wizards with lightning bolt. Or wide open rooms with trap doors, releasing invisible stalkers into the room. Dig through the forum for homebrew nastiness. I've thrown items from here up.

Put up a wall of some kind, Force wall, Wall of Wind, or something and split up the party. One-way doors are also fun, especially if you ambush them on the other side. Whoever is past there can't warn the rest of the party. (Use a couple of folders, or books to simulate this)

Sequinox
2007-10-26, 10:23 PM
Wow... This really is interesting at how some people know so much about this... Again, thanks to you all. (I can see the cone of cold reaking havoc in the party ranks... Thanks for that one in particular. And the force wall. Useful.):smallamused:

Triaxx
2007-10-27, 04:45 AM
I'm always willing to help destroy adventuring scum in hives of villainy.

Altharis
2007-10-27, 06:25 AM
Yes! Some like minded people who also hate traps without bypasses and love cone shaped rooms! (I, personally, have caught myself in an amazing ancient medieval temple thinking about DnD scenario opportunities...)

I don't mind if you use the Demon temple, as long as you mentione me in the recruitment post, or have a variation of my name be the demon they're worshipping or some such, and as long as you keep it a DEMON temple, as I basically took the plot from my DEVIL temple adventure which I plan to run on these boards and would rather not have the theme of which spoilt. Other than that, I would be honored! :smallbiggrin:

Remind me to create an adventure with you people sometime,
Altharis

Sequinox
2007-10-30, 08:36 PM
Thanks every1.


NOTE: No PCs were harmed in the creation of this thread (not yet, anyway:smallamused: )

BisectedBrioche
2007-10-30, 11:04 PM
You could try taking a cliche in dungeon design and exagerate or reverse it as far as possible. Some examples;

{TABLE=Head]Cliché|Exageration/Reversal

Prisoner turns out to be BBEG|BBEG is in fact a collosal beast which makes up the entire "prison" area and its inmates

Treasure is bait for a trap|Treasure has been animated (jumping gold pieces anyone?)

PCs are trapped in a room, and they have a time limit to solve a puzzle and escape|PCs must stay completly still for X rounds to deactivate trap, trap progresses each time they move

Good aligned creature mistakes PCs for villains|Helms of Opposite Alignment (enough for the whole party, plus a sympathy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sympathy.htm) spell or two so they all put it on even if they don't wear heavy armour), good aligned creature attempts to break the curses and the PCs (due to the effects of the helms) try to stop them[/TABLE]

Sorry about the spelling and grammar but its about 4:00 here.

Sequinox
2007-11-01, 04:58 PM
np about the grammar, I don't mind at all. I'm just glad im getting more advice on dungeon design. I like dungeons so this is a massive help.
:smallcool:

Sequinox
2007-11-02, 07:01 PM
...Wow. Surprisingly there hasn't been a post on this thread in the past day.
I bet everyone's too busy on OOTS 500 and the forums surrounding it to come over here.

Jack_Simth
2007-11-02, 08:21 PM
A couple of general things to think about when designing a dungeon...

1) Where did it come from, originally? This generally determines your basic layout, but also something of the stuff inside (although later inhabitants will change that aspect).
A natural cave complex will generally have some kind of pattern to it (e.g., long, straight lines for lava tubes) or just be rather random, a mine follows the veins of ore (fairly random) while an underground habitation will reflect the "city planners" over the ages (be that completely random when anyone's permitted to carve out whatever chunk of rock they like, to the planned and orderly, looking more like the layout of a roman encampment than an underground city) and will have periods of expansion based on who was in power. Something built for a specific purpose (e.g., sewers, underground temples, burial sites, military fortifications) will be ordered based on the purpose - sewers will generally follow a collection pattern (smaller tunnels leading downwards to larger ones, and eventually to some final resting place outdoors where basically nobody cares), underground temples will match the personality of the worshippers (and have appropriate amenities for them), while a burial site is limited only by the religious significance of the construction (which can be basically anything - but due to the labor involved in excavating a tomb, you'll generally end up with one tunnel connecting a small handful of rooms ... unless it's a long-term burial area, in which case, you'll get side tunnels and more rooms as it's expanded for later burials). Military fortifications will be built with defense in mind (but will also suit the personality and needs of those who built it or were expected to be there - so you'll have a mess hall (but not for things that don't eat), barracks (but not for things that don't sleep), training grounds, and so on).

2) What's happened between then and now? This generally determines your extended layout, and sometimes what's
Intelligent beings make deliberate changes to an environment, and locations change hands occasionally. A cult might expand a room in an old crypt to perform rituals. Rebels might build a few extra walls to make an old mine more defensible if they're found out. An assassin might put up a fake wall with a hidden door in a natural cave complex for hiding a cache of poisons for a few months while he waits for the palace guards to grow sufficiently comfortable with him that he's no longer searched when arranging to talk to a particular duke.
Additionally, intelligent critters take stuff, and put stuff back. A military group might leave behind a weapons cache (which they intended to come back for...), but remove the gilding from the coffins (raising funds, any way they could). Cultists add and remove things based on mundane needs (e.g., food), practical needs (weapons, armor), and anything religious (books, sacrificial daggers, alters, and so on). Adventurers (hey, there was an evil cult a hundred years ago that got wiped out - someone did the wiping...) tend to take stuff for sale later.
Intelligent beings also make incidental changes to an environment - that underground barracks might become the center of an underground city, as wives move in to be near their husbands, and the children don't go far. You could have a chaotic "city sprawl" around a highly organized barracks area.
Unintelligent beings make changes to an environment, too - a burrowing animal can make connections where there weren't, previously, possibly providing an escape route for the "perfect" compacting room set up thirty years ago.
Environment also has an impact (mostly to the detriment of an orderly dungeon) - water tends to break things down over time, so in a wet area, you'll get a higher number of caved-in areas (and areas prone to cave-ins). Earthquakes are really bad for any underground denizens (sudden, unexpected cave ins). The dungeon in the middle of the desert in the middle of a continent is unlikely to have any structural damage at all... except where caused by things like poor engineering or deliberate destruction (e.g., the rock mole that removes a critical support, or the adventurer that smashes a pillar to make the roof cave in on something he can't take out directly).

3) What's there now?
Much like item 2, except this time, everything is "active". This is where your PC's opponents come in. These are the people that are currently bringing in food, or currently hauling out loot. These are the guys that are stashing weapons for the coup d'etat on the local baron. These are the guys that are bringing in the young he-goats to sacrifice their spleens to the gray gods (including the feed, bedding, fencing, and waste-removal that entails).


Oh - and only mechanical traps need an alternate route or a bypass switch - magical ones can be a lot more discriminatory. For instance, on casting, you can attune a Symbol spell to any number of specific individuals, who can thereafter NEVER set it off (and are unaffected if it's set off while they are present). Meanwhile, that same Symbol can be set to ignore creatures of a particular alignment, or only trigger for creatures of a particular alignment. "Regular" magic traps can be set for similar things by including such things as Detect Chaos, Detect Law, Detect Good, and Detect Evil. A clerical lich might make Inflict traps that go off whenever anyone or anything steps on them - for the lich and undead minions, it's completely beneficial; for intruders, it's deadly. The lich that crafts a Harm trap has almost no reason at all to make a way around it without triggering it.

Nelphine
2007-11-03, 12:22 AM
i like to use dungeons that were designed ages ago (in your game world terms) and is now occupied by someone else.
this can lead to some rather interesting results when the party tries to figure out what is actually going on (ancient demon shrine, currently being used by a group of highly intelligent ogres who are usually diplomatic confused the heck out of my party, and the demon summoning room made them extremely paranoid)
second, i try never ever to give my party reasons to split up. whether it's from traps or illusions or monsters or plot or anything.. the party will split up enough on there own, and i find it detracts from the overall atmosphere, so i never actively try to split them up.

third, unless your party really likes mapping, i generally try to keep all dungeons very simple, just to avoid excessive time trying to explain the map in terms everyone understands (so no angles, and generally a very simple layout to the dungeon)

Sequinox
2007-11-05, 08:47 PM
Okay, I'm just resurfacing this thread because soon it will be unknown, lost with all the other threads in the numbers 2-? in the lists of threads.

Also, Altharis, I used your name as you asked me to for the demon-lord thing. :smallbiggrin:

Triaxx
2007-11-06, 06:31 AM
Of course, you can always get around that by mapping the dungeon out ahead of time. Let the players have the map. Say it was included in the ancient documents.

Have a second map prepared for your use. Include several passages that have collapsed, requiring them to go the long way around. Break bridges ahead of them, so they have to come up with another way across. (Dwarf Tossing) :smallsmile:

Of course, if they catch on, hope your Craft (Excuse) is up to snuff.

daggaz
2007-11-06, 08:56 AM
I like a really, really long hallway. Full of traps that are impossible to detect. And at the end? An orc, in a 10-ft square room, with a treasure chest.

No seriously, lots of good pointers here. I think all my best dungeons/caves/whathaveyous came about, by thinking of the place as an ecosystem... as was said before, design it around the inhabitants, so that it makes sense. If it makes sense, the players can figure it out, which is fun, and there can be some fun interactions going on depending on what they do.

Sequinox
2007-11-06, 11:17 AM
thanks again everyone. :smallbiggrin:

BisectedBrioche
2007-11-06, 03:59 PM
Some thoughts on traps (continuing on from/inspired by Jack's post);

First you should consider where the traps are being set. This has an effect on all of the other variables. Traps will be constructed using available resources (i.e. anything in the enviroment or which can be brought into the enviroment), by the inhabitants (be they "immigrants" or natural inhabitants), and will probably have an effect on the reason they are created (old buildings and caves will probably have more natural traps than a modern fotress).

The next thing to consider is what the purpose of a trap would be, and thus what it would do. Off the top of my head there are four reasons a trap in a would be in a dungeon;


Defense
To catch food
Security
Natural features


Defense Traps made to defend the dungeon will almost certainly be lethal traps, using HP or Con damaging methods, although if the defenders may be more mercyful and use less lethal methods such as non-con ability damage or non-lethal damage or simply just restrain their target. Just about any trap could appear as part of someone's defenses.

To catch food If a trap is intended to catch food then it will probably be quite simple and deal lethal damage or incapacitate its target quickly. The party will probably not have too much trouble (unless, of course, they are the intended prey).

Security Places which are more of a home than a fortress will more likely to focus on "security" than outright attack. The main difference would be that the traps will assume that the PCs are looking around instead of charging strait at a specific (and guarded) target. This means that they are more likely to be well hidden and autonomous (while defensive traps would be more visible to intimidate and might be triggered manually by defenders). The traps are also more likely to be designed incapasitate intruders. In a full scale attack someone is more likely to be interested in inflicting casualties on an opposing army but if they're just keeping adventurers out of their evil lair they might want to interogate them (or just torture them a bit out of spite).

Natural Features Some traps may just be natural features of caves rather than being deliberatly placed. Examples include pits (with staligmites or monsters at the bottom), cave-ins (previous or impending) rockslides, collapsing walls, pools of corrosive substances (its has been known to happen) and some creatures (e.g. molds).

Combinations of the above are also possible, for example a natural trap may be expanded (e.g. a pit could have wooden stakes at the bottom) and defensive traps could be modified for security.

You should also consider who is building the traps. An evil old lich will be more likely to use magic based traps, while a group of rogues will probably use more sophisticated traps than a rabble of goblins. Some creatures are more or less inclined to use traps (e.g. Kobolds) while some will almost never.

Another thing to take into account what is available to make a trap. This would mainly be what's around but other things could be brought in. For example a group of goblins won't have any poison unless they have a spellcaster or buy/steal it (in the later case it would probably vary as to what they put on their traps depending on who they robbed), while a wizard would be able to make his own poison via alchemy.

Finally consider when the traps were set. If they are hundreds of years old, maybe they've deteriated and wooden parts have rotted, poison has lost its potency, etc. This could stop the trap working (this doesn't mean the actual trap itself is destroyed, even a rune spell is useless if it get's covered by a wall of rubble), or even set it off.

Sequinox
2007-11-07, 03:04 PM
I just realized I haven't said much myself! Okay... The dungeon I'm using was formerly an underground city, so there are plenty of roads, rooms, and staircases from one floor down. Now the place has been taken over by goblins early on... But further down, the cityscape vanishes. Under the "city," there is an ancient dungeon that was ancient even when the makers of the cityscape arrived, say, a couple hundred feet down. So that's what I am doing right now.

PS - I doubt any of my players are reading this, but the name of my profile alone should tell you who I am. So this last paragraph has spoilers. And if you read this, for the sake of everyone else in the party, please don't talk about it.

Sequinox
2007-11-14, 02:40 PM
Anyone have any opinions on this? Its been a while and I don't want to lose this thread. So I'm resurfacing it (again) :smallwink:

Jack_Simth
2007-11-14, 05:33 PM
All the information needed to find the thread is buried in the URL when viewing the thread. You can just bookmark it directly, rather than worrying about threadomancy or bumping from the forum rules. They persist on the server for a very long time.

Sequinox
2007-11-14, 08:00 PM
Thanks. I just did. :smallbiggrin: