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View Full Version : Do familiars gain feats with hit dice.



Duke Malagigi
2007-10-25, 01:35 AM
That's all I'm asking right now.

Dhavaer
2007-10-25, 01:41 AM
Yes, but they don't normally gain hit dice.

Skjaldbakka
2007-10-25, 02:04 AM
That pretty much sums it up. Familiars don't gain any additional HD, only effective HD ( = PC's character level.)

Duke Malagigi
2007-10-25, 05:10 PM
Okay then, do familiars gain feats with increases in effective hit dice?

Amiria
2007-10-25, 05:12 PM
No .

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-10-25, 05:13 PM
No.

(post, please)

Logic Cannon
2007-10-25, 05:15 PM
Nope. (Third time's the charm!)

Duke Malagigi
2007-10-25, 05:27 PM
Nope. (Third time's the charm!)

So a familiar is a squishier, at non-Epic level non-spellcasting quasi-magical pet that can't learn any new techniques, tactics or abilities (I.E. feats or skills)? Then what point is there other than to screw over the poor pitiful arcanist if the thing dies on you? Wizards and sorcerers would do better hiring a rouge, bard, ranger or even scout as a spy. Honestly, what is the point of having a familiar?

Lord Zentei
2007-10-25, 05:30 PM
So a familiar is a squishier, at non-Epic level non-spellcasting quasi-magical pet that can't learn any new techniques, tactics or abilities (I.E. feats or skills)? Then what point is there other than to screw over the poor pitiful arcanist if the thing dies on you? Wizards and sorcerers would do better hiring a rouge, bard, ranger or even scout as a spy. Honestly, what is the point of having a familiar?

It looks cool.
It doesn't betray you.
It provides a skill bonus, albeit a small one.
It's traditional.

Duke Malagigi
2007-10-25, 05:40 PM
It looks cool.
It doesn't betray you.
It provides a skill bonus, albeit a small one.
It's traditional.

1. That can be rather hit and miss.
2. That's a pretty good point.
3. So does Skill Focus.
4. As are cheese rolling (http://www.cheese-rolling.co.uk/) and ferret legging (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferret_legging). None of those are associated with any class ability.

Helios Sunshard
2007-10-25, 05:41 PM
It also allows you to get "arbitrary high stats" if it is viper...

Hasivel
2007-10-25, 05:50 PM
So a familiar is a squishier, at non-Epic level non-spellcasting quasi-magical pet that can't learn any new techniques, tactics or abilities (I.E. feats or skills)? Then what point is there other than to screw over the poor pitiful arcanist if the thing dies on you? Wizards and sorcerers would do better hiring a rouge, bard, ranger or even scout as a spy. Honestly, what is the point of having a familiar?
It does get skills, the familiar uses it's master's ranks. It also uses the master's BAB incidentally.

Some classes get more use out of a familiar than others, Duskblades can get a battle familiar with real power given their relatively huge hit die and full BAB.

Even for the weakest wizard, however, a Familiar provides valuable extra actions in combat. Ravens can speak common (No explanation for why :vaarsuvius:'s can't). This lets them use spell activation items like scrolls and wands, and their strength is just enough to carry a few. In battle an extra magic missile from a wand every single round or a little toad tossing CLW potions down the throat of any character down to 0HP or less can pay off handsomely. Your familiar also has the same ranks as you in every skill you possess which means you should have "Aid Another" bonuses from it on any attempt you make.

Subotei
2007-10-25, 06:02 PM
That pretty much sums it up. Familiars don't gain any additional HD, only effective HD ( = PC's character level.)

Hang on - so my familiar I got gets a HP increase as I level? My DM has been holding out on me..... I really should RTFR more often:smallbiggrin:

kamikasei
2007-10-25, 06:05 PM
Ravens can speak common (No explanation for why :vaarsuvius:'s can't).

He feels it is demeaning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0155.html).

Enzario
2007-10-25, 06:08 PM
So a familiar is a squishier, at non-Epic level non-spellcasting quasi-magical pet that can't learn any new techniques, tactics or abilities (I.E. feats or skills)? Then what point is there other than to screw over the poor pitiful arcanist if the thing dies on you? Wizards and sorcerers would do better hiring a rouge, bard, ranger or even scout as a spy. Honestly, what is the point of having a familiar?

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Wizards' (optional) justification for level 9 spells :smallamused:

Hasivel
2007-10-25, 06:20 PM
He feels it is demeaning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0155.html).

Ah, thanks. Missed that somehow.

Temp
2007-10-25, 06:27 PM
Free tiny viper venom? It never hurts to have the chance of a bit of Con damage on your arrows.


Speaking of which, are there any rules for venom-milking?

Wolfwood2
2007-10-25, 06:37 PM
Something a lot of folks overlook.

1. A familiar has all of a wizard's skill ranks.

2. A familiar can "Aid Another" on skill checks where it is possible to aid, and it will rarely have trouble doing that for Knowledge checks and Spellcraft checks.

3. Therefore, a familiar is like a permanent +2 bonus to your Knowledge and spellcraft skills.

ocato
2007-10-25, 06:39 PM
Familiars get Natural armor bonuses and share your spells, so your pet is a decent substitute for spectral hand if you're feeling gutsy or need to touch a higher level spell. He can fly up there with your mage armor and shield and greater invisibility that you cast on yourself and make that touch attack. If my choice is to risk a loss of XP or risk getting the ever loving crit knocked out of me, up to and including death, I'll lose risk XP.

Yeygresh
2007-10-25, 06:54 PM
Take the Tiny Viper familiar, Poison Healer(HotA), Bind Vestige(ToM), have at least a +5 con modifier, and a +4 fort save.

Bind Naberius and take Faster Ability Healing; the have your viper bite you. Every time you succeed the poison save, you gain 5-(1d4-1)hp, and take no ability score damage on a fail.

That's why Familiars are overpowered.

Duke Malagigi
2007-10-25, 06:59 PM
Take the Tiny Viper familiar, Poison Healer(HotA), Bind Vestige(ToM), have at least a +5 con modifier, and a +4 fort save.

Bind Naberius and take Faster Ability Healing; the have your viper bite you. Every time you succeed the poison save, you gain 5-(1d4-1)hp, and take no ability score damage on a fail.

That's why Familiars are overpowered.

That only covers viper familiars.

TheSteelRat
2007-10-25, 07:01 PM
Familiars also allow you to take Arcane Hierophant, which pretty much combines the druid's animal companion and the familiar into a vortex of awesomeness at the cost of 4 Wizard spell levels and 3 druid spell levels.

Zherog
2007-10-25, 07:06 PM
Ravens can speak common (No explanation for why :vaarsuvius:'s can't).

Ravens can speak any language of the master's choosing.


This lets them use spell activation items like scrolls and wands, and their strength is just enough to carry a few. In battle an extra magic missile from a wand every single round ...

Um, no. It does not have spellcasting ability and therefore cannot activate wands or scrolls (unless, of course, the master has ranks in UMD; then the familiar also has those ranks and can make use of the skill).

Temp
2007-10-25, 07:08 PM
Actually, I don't see familiars mentioned once in the AH prerequisites. You could probably technically go Bard/Druid and use your AH levels to determine familiar abilities.

Logic Cannon
2007-10-25, 07:09 PM
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned familiar's skillsets yet. Remember that a familiar will use its intrinsic ranks in a skill or its masters, whichever is highest. Past that, it adds any stat bonuses or racial bonuses (which can be quite high) to those skill checks.Many familiars have fairly high stealth bonuses and/or observational bonuses that, coupled with their small size, allow you to use them as scouts or watchdogs in a way that doesn't really tip off most enemies (are the orcs you're spying on really going to try to shoot a raven flying overhead?).

Case in point:
Bats: Hide +14, Listen +8, Move Silently +6, Spot +8, Blindsense.

Cat: Balance +10, Climb +6, Hide +16 (+20 in underbrush), Jump +10, Listen +3, Move Silently +8, Spot +3

Hawk: Listen +4, Spot +16

Lizard:Balance +10, Climb +12, Hide +12, Listen +3, Move Silently +4, Spot +3, Low-Light Vision

Owl: Listen +14, Move Silently +17, Spot +6 (+14 in shadowy areas)

Rat: Balance +10, Climb +12, Hide +16,Move Silently +10, Swim +10

Raven: Listen +5, Spot +7, can speak one language of its master's choosing, which doesn't have to be Common (but probably should be) - great for delivering messages or spooking superstitious enemies and commoners

Snake: Balance +11, Climb +11, Hide +15, Listen +6, Spot +6, Swim +5, Poisonous

Toad: Hide +21, Listen +4, Spot +4

Weasel: Balance +12, Climb +10, Escape Artist +4,Hide +11, Move Silently +8, Spot +3

All of those choices offer some modest to huge bonuses to skills that a wizard normally has no means of reasonably accessing, and some other useful abilities like blindsense, low-light vision, or poison. An Owl, for instance, makes a great camp guard, usually dwarfing the party rogue for lookout until mid-levels, and even then can keep a close eye on the wizard's stuff pretty reliably all game long.

Simply owning one is practically two free feats (Alertness when it's within arm's reach and a free skill focus or improved save feat), which has its advantages, especially when they augment traditionally-poor saves, like reflex or fortitude. Keep in mind that this doesn't COUNT as a feat, though, so you can have a rat familiar and Great Fortitude for a total of +4 to Fort saves, which I can't imagine anyone would see as a poor choice.

As you gain levels, your familiar can do other things for you, which includes delivering touch spells (great for flying familiars), speak with you (darn useful as the familiar at this point is as smart as a slightly slow person and their intelligence gets better), speak with similar animals (great in the wilderness where wild animals abound), and eventually offering the ability to be scried on by its master, where some familiar's high Hide values come in awfully handy, should you use them to infiltrate an enemy stronghold.

I just can't see why nobody likes these fellows, to be honest. They're extremely useful and offer comedic value, as well. Nobody will ever forget the time the party snuck in because the wizard's toad familiar hopped up to the lone guard, sat on his foot, and delivered the world's nastiest Shocking Grasp.

Zherog
2007-10-25, 07:20 PM
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned familiar's skillsets yet. Remember that a familiar will use its intrinsic ranks in a skill or its masters, whichever is highest.

Several people mentioned it, actually. ;)

Logic Cannon
2007-10-25, 07:26 PM
Several people mentioned it, actually. ;)

Yes, but nobody mentioned that they have, in general, very high bonuses to non-class skills for wizards and sorcerers.

Amiria
2007-10-25, 07:33 PM
And I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned the Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability spell (Complete Arcane/Spell Compendium). That's why Familiars are overpowered. :smallwink:

OneWinged4ngel
2007-10-25, 07:35 PM
Honestly, what is the point of having a familiar?

Oh, not much, just that Familiars are AMAZINGLY handy. They can give you extra actions. You can imbue them with spells. They DOUBLE UP on your skills (letting you make all your skill checks twice) and Aid Another to boot! Ravens and other familiars that can speak can UMD stuff, making them Totally Awesome (hey, try replacing the party's cleric for healing with a UMD familiar. The Raven flutters about the battlefield raisin' the fallen reading off of scrolls of Revenance or whatever. Awesome). They can use items. They have SHARE SPELLS (which has endless, amazing utility). They make great little scouts and hawks will give you +16 Spot at first level. They even give you little bonuses, which can actually be quite substantial in some cases (see Octopus or HUMMINGBIRD familiars! Day-amn!) Familiars basically rock. Unless you're stupid and don't know what to do with them besides get them killed. But if you use them intelligently, you can get cool things like, say, 8d6 damage blasts with a level 1 Wizard's Light of Lunia. Or sharing Trollform. Or getting a skill monkey raven with UMD for a Rogue/Wizard sort who can cast imbued spells of up to 5th level at the master's caster level and ability. (before he grabs a wand or scroll!) Heck, you can even make the familiar the party face, especially if you maxxed out social ranks but dumped your own Charisma You can get familiars for tons of classes, too (thanks to the feat that gives ya one), and not just Wizards and Sorcerors (for example, a Beguiler obviously gets a great little skill monkey familiar if he chooses to take one). The list of utilities is endless, really. I could go on and on about cool things to do with familiars.

The real question is, how did you get it into your head that they WEREN'T good? :smallconfused:

Falrin
2007-10-25, 08:03 PM
1) Gishes.

I had a Reach Weapon using gish hiding behind his Improved Familiar (Small Earth Elemental). This worked especuially nice with the High HP, High BaB & Shared buffs (enlarge person, Bulls, Mage Armour, Shield, ...)
A feared Meatshield Indeed.


2) Extra Actions.

Imbue Familiar With Spell = Extra Action.

Lord Zentei
2007-10-25, 08:25 PM
1. That can be rather hit and miss.
2. That's a pretty good point.
3. So does Skill Focus.
4. As are cheese rolling (http://www.cheese-rolling.co.uk/) and ferret legging (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferret_legging). None of those are associated with any class ability.

Hit and miss, granted, though a halfway decent DM won't saddle you with some animal you really don't want.

Skill Focus takes up a Feat slot. Familiars are already part of the portfolio -- unless you are suggesting replacing it with a generic Feat. That generic Feat doesn't give you the familiar's other abilities, though.

As for Ferret Legging and Cheese Rolling -- that's not part of the classical imagery associated with a class.:smallwink:

Karsh
2007-10-25, 08:29 PM
Really, I think the biggest thing is Shared Shapechange; nothing quite like two dragons flying in formation.

Temp
2007-10-25, 08:32 PM
Oh, not much, just that Familiars are AMAZINGLY handy. They can give you extra actions. You can imbue them with spells. They DOUBLE UP on your skills (letting you make all your skill checks twice) and Aid Another to boot! Ravens and other familiars that can speak can UMD stuff, making them Totally Awesome (hey, try replacing the party's cleric for healing with a UMD familiar. The Raven flutters about the battlefield raisin' the fallen reading off of scrolls of Revenance or whatever. Awesome). They can use items. They have SHARE SPELLS (which has endless, amazing utility). They make great little scouts and hawks will give you +16 Spot at first level. They even give you little bonuses, which can actually be quite substantial in some cases (see Octopus or HUMMINGBIRD familiars! Day-amn!) Familiars basically rock. Unless you're stupid and don't know what to do with them besides get them killed. But if you use them intelligently, you can get cool things like, say, 8d6 damage blasts with a level 1 Wizard's Light of Lunia. Or sharing Trollform. Or getting a skill monkey raven with UMD for a Rogue/Wizard sort who can cast imbued spells of up to 5th level at the master's caster level and ability. (before he grabs a wand or scroll!) Heck, you can even make the familiar the party face, especially if you maxxed out social ranks but dumped your own Charisma

But what good have familiars done us lately?

John Campbell
2007-10-25, 09:42 PM
Really, I think the biggest thing is Shared Shapechange; nothing quite like two dragons flying in formation.

Until your familiar gets more than 5' away from you, turns back into a weasel, and plummets to his doom.

Aquillion
2007-10-26, 02:23 AM
Regarding having familiars use scrolls: This doesn't work. (Not unless the master learns UMD, anyway. And even that is iffy.) The problems are numerous:

First, you have to be able to read a scroll yourself to activate it:
Activating a scroll requires reading the spell from the scroll. The character must be able to see and read the writing on the scroll.This is questionable. You can buy the ability to read by spending a skill point, but that doesn't necessarily make it a skill. Is it, itself, a skill that the familiar inherits from the master? If not, even UMD will not let a familiar use a scroll.

But more importantly, to activate a scroll without UMD, you have to have that spell on your class list, be a caster of the appropriate type (arcane or divine), and have a high enough ability score in the relevant skill. Familiars do not inherit any of these things from their masters; they certainly won't qualify for the first two, and will often fail the third one as well.

Wands are slightly more forgiving, but to activate one without UMD, you still need to have the spell on your class list. Familiars do not have a class list of spells, and don't get to inheret their master's for that purpose, so no wands for your familiar unless you take a lot of UMD, too.

Now, granted, taking UMD cross-class for just this purpose might actually make sense for a wizard; after all, you have a ton of skill points from your int, and not very many class skills to spend them on. Extra actions in combat are worth a lot, too. Still, it's going to be cross-class, and neither you nor your familiar are likely to have much CHA. (Sorcerers have the CHA, but are less likely to have the extra skill points to burn on cross-class UMD) Activating scrolls is almost certainly a bad idea, given how much your familiar has to emulate. Wands are smarter, and you can at least have your familiar darting around with a wand of CLW or whatever for stabilizing people, but still, it's pretty limited, and there's an investment involved.

A familiar's ability to deliver touch spells can sometimes come in handy, although I wouldn't recommend using it offensively if you want your familiar to stay alive (or even in combat at all, if your DM is a jerk. Seriously, how likely is it that the enemies are going to turn away from the dangerous wizard or raging barbarian to swing at the pathetic raven that isn't even attacking them? If your DM is a jerk, it's very likely.)

CASTLEMIKE
2007-10-26, 03:26 AM
Regarding having familiars use scrolls: This doesn't work. (Not unless the master learns UMD, anyway. And even that is iffy.)


There is always Permanency for Read Magic from level 9 on (Earlier if you could get access to a scroll) which takes care of that in just about all campaings.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-10-26, 03:58 AM
Regarding having familiars use scrolls: This doesn't work. (Not unless the master learns UMD, anyway. And even that is iffy.)

If you'll notice, I said "if you have a Rogue/Wizard type with Able Learner or a Beguiler or the like, your familiar can share your UMD ranks." So, the master does learn UMD. There is no mistake on my part, only yours. No one claimed that the master didn't need UMD ranks. So you just made a straw man argument, which is of course a logical fallacy and makes you wrong. :smallannoyed:

Additionally, a raven familiar can see and read a scroll.

As for reading: Yes, your familiar can read. Seriously... you're asking if, even though he can inherit your +20 on Decipher Script and Spellcraft and Knowledge skills, he can't read a written sentence. Come on. There's no great leap here. They even treat reading as a skill in all rules instances of it, albeit one that's free for everyone except Barbarians, and special in the same manner Speak Language is. Not that any of that is relevant to scrolls, because it takes a SPELLCRAFT or UMD check (your choice) (no need to actually read Common) to decipher a scroll's magical writing, and that is also inherited from the master's ranks.

Also, Share Spells > Deliver Touch Spells. There's a reason I didn't even mention delivering touch spells. As for the "puny raven that's unprotected," there is absolutely nothing stopping you from turning him into a dragon or whatever *for free* with Share Spells.

Just an example:

One of my own characters, Magnus Graven, who is going along the lines of Rogue 1 / Wizard 5 (with Spontaneous Divination at 5) / Unseen Seer 10 / Arcane Trickster 4. At level 2, he gets a Raven familiar named Xerxes, and he has 5 ranks in UMD (no cross class, Able Learner handles all that.) This means Xerxes also has 5 ranks in UMD. Xerxes also has the ability to read, and the ability to speak. Thus, he can use scrolls. He can also use spell completion items. As he progresses, his UMD gets higher and higher along with his master's, and gets augmented by magic. And finally, he can act as a supporting caster during combat. Additionally, he takes advantage of Share Spells right off the bat to give Magnus the ability to obliterate outsiders with 9d6 damage touch attacks, and later on gets to turn into trolls or dragons and whatever. He also will be sharing the swift buff Hunter's Eye to get his own sneak attack damage. Also later on, he gets the wonderful benefits of Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability. So, Magnus starts using him in combat both for UMD (using all those handy scrolls from spell lists he doesn't have.) and for dealing a good 23d6 or so damage in addition to forcing save or sucks with a good touch attack spell (like, say, Orb of Acid, which forces a save against nauseated).

Xerxes has the full skills of a Rogue of Magnus's level (plus the knowledges and stuff rogues don't usually pick up). He can make Magnus an even better skill monkey not only by using Aid Another rolls, but by actually letting him roll twice, or by *doubling up* on productivity. Don't want to have to take the time for a 20 on a Search check while busy with other activities like casting a long duration spell? The familiar can do it great. He shares buffs Magnus uses on himself *for free,* and can gain the benefit of those great self only buffs. He contributes an extra action to the table with Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability (and sometimes more through the results of Share Spells. For example, if he suddenly gets Cloud of Knives shared). He uses UMD. He provides a flying scout that allows Magnus to better prepare for every situation (obviously essential to Batman). He can do tons of things, from turning into a troll and ripping people's faces off, to going to town and being the party face with the team's highest diplomacy (Magnus has less Cha than Xerxes!). That's just plain cool.

...Yeah, I can't imagine how a familiar could ever be worth it. :smallwink:

The Glyphstone
2007-10-26, 05:36 AM
Wait, I thought Able Learner only made all skills cost 1 skill point, and explicity didn't allow cross-class skills to exceed the normal CC skill cap...Or was that a different feat?

Zincorium
2007-10-26, 05:59 AM
Wait, I thought Able Learner only made all skills cost 1 skill point, and explicity didn't allow cross-class skills to exceed the normal CC skill cap...Or was that a different feat?

If a skill has been a class skill for any class you've taken, it's max rank is the same as if it was a class skill for you now, you just have to pay double for it.

Edit: Page 62 of the PHB, last sentence under the 'skills at higher levels' heading.

Zherog
2007-10-26, 07:19 AM
Share spells is peachy keen - as long as the familiar stays within 5' of you.

Mr. Friendly
2007-10-26, 08:15 AM
The various points already mentioned like:


Feats that enhance familiars
Feats to get better familiars
Spells that enhance familiars


1.
Bonded Familiar (PH2)
Combat Familiar (PH2)
Lurking Familiar (PH2)
Familiar Spell (Und)
Improved Familiar (various)
Spell-linked familiar (PH2)
Betrayal if the Spirit Linked (Dragon #336)
Enspell Familiar (Dragon #280; Dungeon Compendium 1)
Familiar Concentration (LostEmpires)
Familiarity (Dragon #325)
Theurgic Bond (Dragon #325)
Token Familiar (Dragon #280)

2.
Obtain Familiar (CA)
Shadow Familiar (ToM)
Shadowform Familiar (CoR)
Extra Familiar (Dragon #280)
Construct Familiar (Dragon #280)
Celestial Familiar (BoED)
Dragon Familiar (Drac)
Planar Familiar (Planar)
Stitched-flesh familiar (LM)

3.
Augment Familiar (CW) (2nd)
Enhance Familiar (CA) (3rd)
Familiar Pocket (CA) (2nd)
Fortify Familiar (CA) (4th)
Imbue Familiar w/ Spell Ability (CA) (6th)

That's in addition to every other spell that buffs the party/all friendlies etc. (Haste, Bless, Recitation et. al.)

This is not a complete list, but it is a good start.

The Glyphstone
2007-10-26, 08:19 AM
If a skill has been a class skill for any class you've taken, it's max rank is the same as if it was a class skill for you now, you just have to pay double for it.

Edit: Page 62 of the PHB, last sentence under the 'skills at higher levels' heading.

Ah - knew that...what I missed was the level of Rogue you gave him. I had been thinking he was a pureclass Wizard.

jameswilliamogle
2007-10-26, 08:37 AM
Improved Familiar for a higher HD familiar would get you 2 feats to play with (if I remember, they're all 3 HD creatures). As a L7 Dread Necromancer, I picked the Quasit, chose for its two forms Spider and Wolf (SRD, not MM, otherwise I would've made one form a dwarf :smallbiggrin: ), and gave it Light Armor Proficiency and something else... I forget... Anyways, as Outsiders they are proficient in all martial weapons, too, and get great skills w/ those 3 HD (8 per). Its a great option for core casters. (Plus, my Quasit was always in the form of a wolf, and combined w/ Disguise being in-class, they thought I was some weird Druid for a LONG time :smallwink: ). Invisibility at will + deliver touch spells = win! Also, and this is funny, the alignment doesn't have to match your choice as with Improved Familiar. I had a LE Quasit!

Multiclassing as a Wizard isn't that big a deal either: all the major advantages are gotten by 3rd level, and the HP keep advancing even if the rest doesn't.

Also, there's a WotC supplement for familiars. Most are just ok, but the Butterfly familiar gives like a +4 to initiative, which is awesome.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-10-26, 09:07 AM
Note that by a strict reading of the RAW you do not get to choose the feats for the familiar.


Familiar Basics: Use the basic statistics for a creature of the familiar’s kind

And also note that Quasits are CE.


Alignment: Always chaotic evil

CASTLEMIKE
2007-10-26, 05:41 PM
You could always let the familiar take 2 Flaws with DM permission.

reorith
2007-10-26, 10:09 PM
4. As are cheese rolling (http://www.cheese-rolling.co.uk/) and ferret legging (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferret_legging). None of those are associated with any class ability.

yet. go check homebrew tomorrow.

Duke Malagigi
2007-10-26, 10:16 PM
yet. go check homebrew tomorrow.

You wouldn't dare. I mean you must be joking, fight?

John Campbell
2007-10-27, 12:21 AM
Oh, not much, just that Familiars are AMAZINGLY handy. They can give you extra actions. You can imbue them with spells. They DOUBLE UP on your skills (letting you make all your skill checks twice) and Aid Another to boot!

"All your skill checks" is overstating the case a little. For all that they get all your skill ranks, there are some skills they're just not capable of using (How does a toad pull off Craft (armorsmithing)?), and others where their success isn't going to help you any (Move Silently, Jump...).

But, yeah, second checks on Spot, Listen, Search, any Knowledge, Spellcraft (like I could ever fail one), and so on, and Aid Anothers on most other things.

And I've had a couple of times where my familiar's been in position to see something that I wasn't, and those skill ranks have been really useful. My DM persists in thinking of my familiar as "dumb animal companion, extra-wussy edition", so it's always amusing watching the expression on his face when I remind him that the weasel is smarter than half the PCs in the party, is as well-educated as I am, shares all of my skills, understands every language I speak, and can converse with me in a personal language, so not only does he most definitely get a Spellcraft check to figure out what that not-really-a-guard-lieutenant NPC just cast behind the party's backs, he's at frickin' +19 on it. And when (not "if") he makes it, he can just tell me about it instead of having to play "Timmy fell down the well?" or something.

Hasivel
2007-10-27, 12:52 AM
"All your skill checks" is overstating the case a little. For all that they get all your skill ranks, there are some skills they're just not capable of using (How does a toad pull off Craft (armorsmithing)?), and others where their success isn't going to help you any (Move Silently, Jump...).
To be sure those are skills your average mage isn't going to be using much but. . .

Armorsmithing: The Toad operates the bellows for you, keeping your coke hot while you heat the metal and adjusting the heat for an even temper. This lets you take your attention off the heat factor so you can focus on pounding the armor to the precise shape you want.

Move Silently: The Toad's keen understanding of stealth, gleaned from your own mind, tells him what items make a noise when stepped on. Crawling along at your feet, he moves twigs that might snap or pebbles that might be dislodged out of the way, or simply draws them to your attention when he can't move them easily.

Jump: Okay you've got me here. But I've never seen a Wizard with jump either so I'm not sure anybody will miss it. Still you're right, we should be saying "Virtually all" or "Almost All" skill checks, not all.

Beren One-Hand
2007-10-27, 12:59 AM
I've seen it mentioned several times that a great use of raven familiar is to have it UMD scrolls for you.

I'm sitting here thinking how can this actually be done? Sure the familiar gets your skill ranks, but not only does it have a -2 Charisma modifier but how is it supposed to actually manipulate the scroll?


SCROLLS
Physical Description: A scroll is a heavy sheet of fine vellum or high-quality paper. An area about 8 1/2 inches wide and 11 inches long is sufficient to hold one spell. The sheet is reinforced at the top and bottom with strips of leather slightly longer than the sheet is wide. A scroll holding more than one spell has the same width (about 8 1/2 inches) but is an extra foot or so long for each extra spell. Scrolls that hold three or more spells are usually fitted with reinforcing rods at each end rather than simple strips of leather. A scroll has AC 9, 1 hit point, hardness 0, and a break DC of 8.
To protect it from wrinkling or tearing, a scroll is rolled up from both ends to form a double cylinder. (This also helps the user unroll the scroll quickly.) The scroll is placed in a tube of ivory, jade, leather, metal, or wood. Most scroll cases are inscribed with magic symbols which often identify the owner or the spells stored on the scrolls inside. The symbols often hide magic traps.

Activation: To activate a scroll, a spellcaster must read the spell written on it. Doing so involves several steps and conditions.

Decipher the Writing:

Activate the Spell: Activating a scroll requires reading the spell from the scroll. The character must be able to see and read the writing on the scroll. Activating a scroll spell requires no material components or focus. (The creator of the scroll provided these when scribing the scroll.) Note that some spells are effective only when cast on an item or items. In such a case, the scroll user must provide the item when activating the spell. Activating a scroll spell is subject to disruption just as casting a normally prepared spell would be. Using a scroll is like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure chance.

The relevent bits are highlighted.

To use the scroll, the bird has to actually read the text.
To read the text, the bird has to actually unroll the scroll (and possibly remove it from a scroll case).
To unroll a scroll and/or remove it from a scroll case in a timely manor requires hands able to manipulate items.
Birds do not have hands able to manipulate items.
How can they cast spells from scrolls?

Reel On, Love
2007-10-27, 01:03 AM
Because you shared your Alter Self/Shapechange/whatever with them and they have hands now.

Or because they unrolled it and spread it out with a Hand of the Mage the round before, and stand on it so it doesn't fold up (putting little weighted corners on your scrolls shouldn't exactly be hard).

Hasivel
2007-10-27, 01:09 AM
I've seen it mentioned several times that a great use of raven familiar is to have it UMD scrolls for you.

I'm sitting here thinking how can this actually be done? Sure the familiar gets your skill ranks, but not only does it have a -2 Charisma modifier but how is it supposed to actually manipulate the scroll?



The relevent bits are highlighted.

To use the scroll, the bird has to actually read the text.
To read the text, the bird has to actually unroll the scroll (and possibly remove it from a scroll case).
To unroll a scroll and/or remove it from a scroll case in a timely manor requires hands able to manipulate items.
Birds do not have hands able to manipulate items.
How can they cast spells from scrolls?
Have you ever seen what Ravens can do with their beaks and claws? They're natural tool users, and in fact the estimated "Smartest Animal In the World" is a female crow, based on her incredible tool using skills. A Raven will have no problem removing a scroll from the case with it's beak, unfolding it with one leg while standing on the other, and reading it.

Beren One-Hand
2007-10-27, 01:33 AM
Have you ever seen what Ravens can do with their beaks and claws? They're natural tool users, and in fact the estimated "Smartest Animal In the World" is a female crow, based on her incredible tool using skills. A Raven will have no problem removing a scroll from the case with it's beak, unfolding it with one leg while standing on the other, and reading it.

Remember we're talking about in combat here. I can see it being done, but I'd rule it would take at least a full-round to prepare the spell, if not more.

Temp
2007-10-27, 04:04 AM
How can they cast spells from scrolls?
Move action: Caster draws scroll
Standard action: Raven reads scroll
Standard Action: Wizard casts spell


Note: The wizard should always scribe more than one spell on a scroll in case both he and his familiar have to activate scrolls the same round.

Zeful
2007-10-27, 12:05 PM
Also if you don't want your familiar to be squishy you can do things like pay to get a Permanent Magic Fang for a +1 to those shared touch attacks or give it a ring of invisibility (I'm not sure that's legal but it's cool.) Imbue Familiar With Spell can give it enough divinations (detect magic and True seeing?) and utility spells (Invisibility, Magic Aura, Dispel Magic) to turn it into the ultimate scout.

Beren One-Hand
2007-10-27, 12:46 PM
Move action: Caster draws scroll
Standard action: Raven reads scroll
Standard Action: Wizard casts spell

Okay this makes sense, I was thinking along the lines of having the raven fly around and use such scrolls as was mentioned several times.

goat
2007-10-27, 02:22 PM
Now I'm thinking about the implications of retroactive skill points on familiars...

A familiar belonging to a level 9 wizard/sorc gets a +0 int bonus. Animals get 2+int skill points. From here on out, if playing by retroactive skill-point rulings, should the familiar get skill point bonuses? If they do, what should be their class skills?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-10-27, 03:10 PM
The only class skills a familiar has is its racial skills.

If you think it would make sense to allow the familiar to treat any skills its master has ranks in as class skill, you must remember that the familiar does not have any ranks in these skills, so any points spend would not stack with the master's rank, you would use the better value as normal.

Duke Malagigi
2007-10-27, 05:24 PM
The only class skills a familiar has is its racial skills.

This idea I agree with. Unless the familiar's "class skills" are also possessed by the wizard or sorcerer, none of the skills the master possesses are class skills for the familiar.

Eldpollard
2007-10-27, 05:38 PM
So you can teach ravens any language you know. What if you're a multi-classing as druid and teach it druidic? Is that teaching a non druid druidic? Causing you to lose your druid abilities.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-10-27, 06:55 PM
So you can teach ravens any language you know. What if you're a multi-classing as druid and teach it druidic? Is that teaching a non druid druidic? Causing you to lose your druid abilities.

Yes, familiars are not Druids.

Lolzords
2007-10-28, 12:58 PM
I rarely use my familiar, a bird. I've found that deliver touch spells and getting it to scout ahead for you is useful.

Person_Man
2007-10-28, 01:21 PM
If you think a normal familiar is nerfed, you can always use the item familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm).

OneWinged4ngel
2007-10-28, 01:40 PM
Wait, I thought Able Learner only made all skills cost 1 skill point, and explicity didn't allow cross-class skills to exceed the normal CC skill cap...Or was that a different feat?

Huh? You don't need a feat to break the CC skill cap. You get that for FREE, according to the CORE PHB. It's an automatic benefit of multiclassing.

Read Page 62. *sigh*


So you can teach ravens any language you know. What if you're a multi-classing as druid and teach it druidic? Is that teaching a non druid druidic? Causing you to lose your druid abilities.

Familiars are a fragment of you, not another person entirely.


Now I'm thinking about the implications of retroactive skill points on familiars...

A familiar belonging to a level 9 wizard/sorc gets a +0 int bonus. Animals get 2+int skill points. From here on out, if playing by retroactive skill-point rulings, should the familiar get skill point bonuses? If they do, what should be their class skills?

Familiars don't get new skill points as far as I know, though they have the master's skill ranks. However, if they did gain skills, their class skills would be based on the creature type that they were (such as magical beast).


If you think a normal familiar is nerfed, you can always use the item familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm).

If your DM allows supercheesy cheese. Item familiars are just plain problematic for the game (mostly because of the ability to invest stuff in them), and the mechanism that supposedly "balances" them (the risk of loss) doesn't do anything to add fun or balance to the game (doesn't add balance by the principle that "rock now, suck later" and vice versa doesn't work). "I'm overpowered and outclass the rest of the party, getting more XP than them and double the skill bonuses to everything! But then the DM can decide at some random point to nerf me and take all my abilities away, making me underpowered!" That's not a good basis for balance, fun, or anything, from a design perspective. And it's just asking for trouble in the gaming group =P