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kpenguin
2007-10-25, 02:15 AM
How would you go about building a mage-hunter gish focused on casting antimagic fields?

Skjaldbakka
2007-10-25, 02:17 AM
Rogue 20. Max UMD ranks. Two-Weapon Fighting. Martial Study for Sudden Leap.

Dhavaer
2007-10-25, 02:17 AM
Something along the lines of Warblade/Wizard/Jade Pheonix Mage/Abjurant Champion, I'd think. Is AMF low enough level for Swift Abjuration? I don't remember.

Kizara
2007-10-25, 02:32 AM
Something along the lines of Warblade/Wizard/Jade Pheonix Mage/Abjurant Champion, I'd think. Is AMF low enough level for Swift Abjuration? I don't remember.

AMF is Cleric 8/Sor/wiz 6.

Dhavaer
2007-10-25, 02:36 AM
AMF is Cleric 8/Sor/wiz 6.

Dang. Ah, well. I don't think Extended Abjurartion has a level limit. Master Abjurer levels will probably help out, too.

Nebo_
2007-10-25, 02:36 AM
Initiate of Mystra.

Belial_the_Leveler
2007-10-25, 03:17 AM
Right. And the flying/invisible wizard has all the rounds in the world to nail you with MDJ. Note that within an AMF you'll have crappy will saves. So, there's a 20% chance each round that you get nailed with a DC 30+ MDJ when you have a will save of +10. BANG! All your items are now useless. Permanently.

Or, eat a maximised, save or get nauseated, orb of acid. Now you're nauseated and took 90 points of damage to boot.


The only good way to get an antimagic gish is to somehow get a sculpted AMF that doesn't affect you but still stops-or affects-your enemies. Anything else is courting disaster if you go up against a prepared mage.

Skjaldbakka
2007-10-25, 03:37 AM
Hence my initial response.

Ramos
2007-10-25, 03:45 AM
A wizard with overland flight could hit you from 100+ feet with almost all spells at lvl 20. Even if you could jump that high, your speed is only 30 ft and it would take 3+ rounds to reach him in a jump. And ofcourse the wizard will no longer be at the same spot by then.

Skjaldbakka
2007-10-25, 04:07 AM
You can get a permanent item of fly. You don't need to activate the AMF until you get close to the wizard. Wizards are vulnerable to AMF. Rogues are the best class to use it against them, as none of their class features are supernatural.

This doesn't make it a perfect strategy, but if you want to use AMFs to combat mages, rogue is your best bet, short of cheese.

Reel On, Love
2007-10-25, 04:12 AM
Right. And the flying/invisible wizard has all the rounds in the world to nail you with MDJ. Note that within an AMF you'll have crappy will saves. So, there's a 20% chance each round that you get nailed with a DC 30+ MDJ when you have a will save of +10. BANG! All your items are now useless. Permanently.
No, there isn't--a Disjunction that takes an AMF down doesn't affect the items inside. Once the AMF is down, the next one can. The Rules Compendium clarifies this issue.


Or, eat a maximised, save or get nauseated, orb of acid. Now you're nauseated and took 90 points of damage to boot.
Instantaneous conjurations would be the way to go vs. someone in an AMF, yes.


The only good way to get an antimagic gish is to somehow get a sculpted AMF that doesn't affect you but still stops-or affects-your enemies. Anything else is courting disaster if you go up against a prepared mage.
"Somehow" being either Archmage's Mastery of Shaping or the Extraordinary Spell Aim feat.

The problem is that of the Rules Compendium, AMF doesn't block line of effect: that means that if you have an AMF around you but not on you, spellcasters can hit you with spells juuuuust fine.

For an "AMF gish", you want Extraordinary Spell Aim or Mastery of Shaping--against spellcasters, throw up a non-shaped AMF (hopefully once you're within range to keep them from getting away--Stand Still, etc). Being a Raptoran or Dragonborn for nonmagical flight is pretty much a must.
Against melee opponents, throuw up a shaped AMF, so when they're fighting you, you have all your buffs--Bite of the Werebear, Greater Blink, etc--while they don't have their buffs or magic items.


Rogues are NOT the best for using the AMF against wizards--gish are, divine or arcane, because they can actually keep the wizard *in* the AMF, through grappling or Thicket of Blades/Stand Still.

Skjaldbakka
2007-10-25, 04:25 AM
Nope, its the rogue. The gish can't use half his class features in the AMF, and is no better at keeping the wizard in the AMf than the rogue. It isn't exactly difficult to grapple a wizard in an AMF.

Shaping AMFs is the worst kind of cheese. This is from the guy who came up with the much-vaunted Batman style wizard. Using cheese gets you hit hard with the nerf bat.



Originally posted by the_Logic_Ninja:
Extraordinary Spell Aim: like the Archmage's "Master of Shaping" ability, but requires a tough spellcraft check. Take this if you can get a custom spellcraft item--just don't use it on Antimagic Field. That's cheesy. Very cheesy.

That being said, general purpose AMF use is best used in the hands of a gish, if you can get away with sculpting AMFs (a sane DM will not allow it). Specifically against wizards, you either want another wizard, or a rogue wielding an AMF scroll.

Rogues have gish built-in anyway.

Reel On, Love
2007-10-25, 05:14 AM
Nope, its the rogue. The gish can't use half his class features in the AMF, and is no better at keeping the wizard in the AMf than the rogue. It isn't exactly difficult to grapple a wizard in an AMF.
The gish is FAR better at keeping the wizard in the AMF. Reach weapon, Thicket of Blades, Improved Trip, Stand Still, all this stuff isn't really doable for a rogue.
Rogues are not good at grappling. In an AMF, the wizard might hit the Rogue on the AoO provoked by a grapple attempt, on a good roll; when they're grappling, the rogue has 5 more points of BAB, but the wizard's DEX (Escaping grapple) is higher than the Rogue's STR; without magic, it'll probably be 16 or so. That makes for a very small difference in grapple checks. This means that the Rogue can't consistently keep the wizard in the AMF via grapple. If the wizard frees himself (by rolling a number a few points higher than yours), he's out of the AMF and you lose.
Meanwhile, the 16+ BAB, high-STR gish can keep him grappled much more easily.


Shaping AMFs is the worst kind of cheese. This is from the guy who came up with the much-vaunted Batman style wizard. Using cheese gets you hit hard with the nerf bat.
If you think Logic Ninja came up with a wizard who uses debuffs and save-or-loses and buffs like Overland Flight, you're kidding yourself; it's something good wizard players have been doing almost from the get-go. The CharOp boards certainly knew about it. The guide's not half bad, but it's just a collection of knowledge and advice, it's not some sort of divine wisdom springing out of the the void.

As for shaping AMFs being cheesy--yeah, a bit, but what the hell--you're up against wizards. What's more, the Rules Compendium's clarification AMF made it not cheesy: if you shape an AMF to exclude yourself, you can be targeted against spells. So either you're vulnerable to spells, or you're vulnerable to melee.
It's still very powerful against enemies who use buffs and items, but hey. There are a lot of very powerful things out there.


That being said, general purpose AMF use is best used in the hands of a gish, if you can get away with sculpting AMFs (a sane DM will not allow it). Specifically against wizards, you either want another wizard, or a rogue wielding an AMF scroll.
A wizard wouldn't use an AMF against another wizard.
A rogue wielding an AMF wouldn't be very good--see above re: keeping the wizard in the AMF.


Rogues have gish built-in anyway.
They really, really don't. Being able to spend multiple rounds setting up buffs from scrolls (which won't work in the AMF; the gish keeps a high BAB and STR in there) is in no way the same thing as being a gish.

kpenguin
2007-10-25, 05:17 AM
A wizard wouldn't use an AMF against another wizard.


...why not?

Reel On, Love
2007-10-25, 05:21 AM
...why not?

Because it's totally pointless and takes away all of his offense? One wizard uses an AMF, the other backs off, flies up, and either Calls something in or throws an instantaneous conjuration out. An empowered Orb or two and a wizard *in an AMF* will fold like a guy with a crappy poker hand.

kpenguin
2007-10-25, 05:22 AM
What if they start grappling? Or if one of the wizards has friends?

Reel On, Love
2007-10-25, 05:31 AM
What if they start grappling? Or if one of the wizards has friends?

Grappling is pointless, they're both bad at it, so one wizard won't be able to pummel the other to death. The other will break the grapple (easy, in this case--DEX higher than the other guy's STR), move back, and fly up or teleport or dimension door or sink into the ground or any one of a myriad options.

If one of the wizards has friends, putting an AMF on himself isn't really going to help. At best it'll give one of his friends a single attack before the other wizard gets away. He'd be better off with dispelling or taking the offensive.

Skjaldbakka
2007-10-25, 05:32 AM
16 BAB isn't much better than a 15, and a rogue can have a high strength if he wants to. Rogue's aren't exactly stat dependent. They can pretty much pick and choose what stat they want to be important.

Not that grappling is what you are doing as a rogue using AMF. You move up to the wizard with the AMF up, and sneak attack the bajeezus out of him. Your AMF stops his foresight/celerity/contingency stuff from going off. Your hide check stops him from seeing you.

If he was flying to high for you to get sneak attack off, you fly up yourself, and then AMF. AMF v. Fly gives you a nice, slow decent in which to kill him alot, since he can't move side-to-side, only fall 60ft/rnd. I'll admit you may have some problems staying hidden in the sky, but that is what builds are for.
Heck, I'll bet there's even a magic item to let you pull it off. There must a spell. Where there is a spell, there is a scroll.

The gish might do better at killing a wizard, but using AMF isn't his best way to do it. Personally, I'll take intelligent skill use over spells any day. Especially since intelligent skill use includes spells, when needed.

Reel On, Love
2007-10-25, 05:50 AM
16 BAB isn't much better than a 15, and a rogue can have a high strength if he wants to. Rogue's aren't exactly stat dependent. They can pretty much pick and choose what stat they want to be important.
It's 16+--16 is the *minimum* 17 or even 18 are more likely. That's two or three points right there, and every point matters, since you want to have so overwhelming an advantage the grappled person *can't* escape.

Rogues ARE stat dependant. Their AC and many of their important physical skills (like, oh, Hide & Move Silently!) are DEX-dependant. A STR-based rogue is silly, and will get himself splattered in short order. DEX is screamingly obvious for Rogues. INT is second. After that is CHA or CON, then WIS and STR, probably; there's flexibility there. But you need DEX and you need INT.


Not that grappling is what you are doing as a rogue using AMF. You move up to the wizard with the AMF up, and sneak attack the bajeezus out of him. Your AMF stops his foresight/celerity/contingency stuff from going off. Your hide check stops him from seeing you.
If you're facing a wizard in an AMF, how are you getting even one sneak attack, much less multiple? Even if you go first, you move up, and attack once. That won't kill anyone.
An AMF heading towards the wizard is definitely something he'll be warned about by Foresight. His Arcane Sight will pick it up, to boot, and he'll get his immediate actions. (Foresight makes him not flatfooted, period.)


If he was flying to high for you to get sneak attack off, you fly up yourself, and then AMF. AMF v. Fly gives you a nice, slow decent in which to kill him alot, since he can't move side-to-side, only fall 60ft/rnd. I'll admit you may have some problems staying hidden in the sky, but that is what builds are for.
Heck, I'll bet there's even a magic item to let you pull it off. There must a spell. Where there is a spell, there is a scroll.
Good luck staying hidden in the sky. Good luck flying up (move), activating the scroll (standard), getting sneak attack somehow (how?), and killing him with it before he goes.

By the way, Fly doesn't float you down in an AMF--it's suppressed. You're thinking about the effects of Dispel on Fly. Both the rogue and the wizard fall suddenly. Neither likes it one bit. The wizard's Fort save (massive damage?) is likely to be better than yours, given that CON is basically his second priority and he has a rat familiar.
Then the wizard moves away and 'ports off.


The gish might do better at killing a wizard, but using AMF isn't his best way to do it. Personally, I'll take intelligent skill use over spells any day. Especially since intelligent skill use includes spells, when needed.
For some gish, AMF is the best way. Otherwise, he's just a weaker wizard fighting another wizard, since melee doesn't really come into play.

UMD just doesn't compete with real spellcasting... which can do more than skills anyway.
Rogues aren't particularily good wizard-killers.

Mr. Friendly
2007-10-25, 06:26 AM
Well, if one were using the "Psionics is Different" variation, then Psions could run around AMFing all the time...

I'm trying to remember if Truenamers can do their thing in AMF and I seem to remember they can, but I am AFB so I could be wrong.

Reel On, Love
2007-10-25, 06:29 AM
Truenaming is (Su) and doesn't work in an AMF.

With the (stupid, when it comes to actual gameplay) Psionics Is Different variant, psions make great wizard killers (and vice-versa) simply because neither has any real defense against the other.

TK-Squared
2007-10-25, 07:34 AM
Or if one of the wizards has friends?


D&D isn't a party game, obviously. Everyone's always alone.

Chronos
2007-10-25, 03:00 PM
By the way, Fly doesn't float you down in an AMF--it's suppressed. You're thinking about the effects of Dispel on Fly. Both the rogue and the wizard fall suddenly. Neither likes it one bit. The wizard's Fort save (massive damage?) is likely to be better than yours, given that CON is basically his second priority and he has a rat familiar.
Then the wizard moves away and 'ports off.First of all, you've got better hit dice than the wizard, and second of all, you can probably tumble away 20 feet of the fall. Third, Con's the wizard's third priority, same as yours (Dex is his second, for AC, aiming rays, and initiative). Fourth, is the familiar-granted bonus Ex or Su?

Reel On, Love
2007-10-25, 03:08 PM
First of all, you've got better hit dice than the wizard, and second of all, you can probably tumble away 20 feet of the fall. Third, Con's the wizard's third priority, same as yours (Dex is his second, for AC, aiming rays, and initiative). Fourth, is the familiar-granted bonus Ex or Su?

CON isn't the rogue's third priority. That'd probably be Charisma. Your HD are better by one point/level, on average. The wizard wants some Dex, but he's not so focused on it. I know from experience that my wizards tend to have 14+ con; my Rogues, maybe 12.

A good wizard can make the DC 15 tumble check to get rid of 10' of the fall, too, since he cross-classes it to get away from AoO people. Even if not, ooh, 1d6 (you tumble away 10', not 20').

The bonus the familiar gives doesn't seem to be any of the three; it's just a class ability. Presumably this means it isn't (Su), or it'd be labelled as such; therefore, it should stick around in an AMF.

In any case, I'm sure you can see why taking 20d6 and risking death by massive damage isn't a very good strategy for wizard killing... unless you're built to take that sort of punishment. Rogues aren't.