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Doresain
2007-10-26, 12:33 PM
im curious as to whether there is a feat in one of the splash books for DnD that allows you to cast arcnae spells in light armor without penalty...i know a bunch of base classes give you that ability, but im looking for a feat that allows you to do that...

all the classes that can cast in light armor without penalty are to specialized in a certain type of casting (dread necromancer, beguiler, bard)...:smallannoyed:

Tyger
2007-10-26, 12:38 PM
Not sure about feats (though I think Armored Caster is a feat in a splatbook somewhere) but when in doubt, gold is better to spend than feats. Thusly, a Mithril Twilight chain shirt offers +4 AC with 0 arcane spell failure.

valadil
2007-10-26, 12:39 PM
Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer)

Not a feat, but a sorc alternative. You lose a lot of available spells, which is pretty harsh, but it's still fun and you still have access to the full sorc/wiz list.

Doresain
2007-10-26, 12:45 PM
Not sure about feats (though I think Armored Caster is a feat in a splatbook somewhere) but when in doubt, gold is better to spend than feats. Thusly, a Mithril Twilight chain shirt offers +4 AC with 0 arcane spell failure.

but in the sense of awesomeness, i want to be able to wear full spiked plate as a fighter/wizard mix, without hinderance...a lot of feats will be spent, but i dont care so long as i can get a friggin sweet looking character out of it


Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer)

Not a feat, but a sorc alternative. You lose a lot of available spells, which is pretty harsh, but it's still fun and you still have access to the full sorc/wiz list.

interesting...i think i remember readin about it in UA...ive also considered a duskblade...so far i like where the class is going, but im not completely sold on it because i dont have the PHBII

Tyger
2007-10-26, 12:56 PM
but in the sense of awesomeness, i want to be able to wear full spiked plate as a fighter/wizard mix, without hinderance...a lot of feats will be spent, but i dont care so long as i can get a friggin sweet looking character out of it



interesting...i think i remember readin about it in UA...ive also considered a duskblade...so far i like where the class is going, but im not completely sold on it because i dont have the PHBII

Ahhh, I see. Well you asked about light armor, not full plate. Thus my answer. For full plate, you are going to have to go with another class. I would suggest altering your original post, so as to not confuse your actual request with the one you wrote out. :smallwink:

Elhann
2007-10-26, 01:06 PM
but in the sense of awesomeness, i want to be able to wear full spiked plate as a fighter/wizard mix, without hinderance...a lot of feats will be spent, but i dont care so long as i can get a friggin sweet looking character out of it Well, Glamered Mithril Twilight chain shirt or a hat of disguise can make you look as you want, if that's what you're worried about:smallwink: .

I'd say Spellsword gives some reduction (30% I believe) on arcane failure chance, enough to ignore the ASFC of a mithril full plate, and you may be closer to what you want. But then, you are giving up enough caster levels you may be as well playing a duskblade, and calling it a day.

Elhann.

Darrin
2007-10-26, 01:13 PM
im curious as to whether there is a feat in one of the splash books for DnD that allows you to cast arcnae spells in light armor without penalty...i know a bunch of base classes give you that ability, but im looking for a feat that allows you to do that...

all the classes that can cast in light armor without penalty are to specialized in a certain type of casting (dread necromancer, beguiler, bard)...:smallannoyed:

Well, Battle Caster in Complete Arcane improves the type of armor you can wear, but you have to have the ability to cast in light armor first. I don't think there's a feat for that, you have to pick that up as a class ability. Bard is fairly general, although all a one-level dip gets you is some cantrips. Warmage would also work, but as you point out, it's a specialized caster.

There are a few PrCs that reduce ASF, such as Spellsword and I think Bladesinger? Although meeting the prereqs for either can be problematic sometimes.

If you can't reduce ASF via a class ability, you can usually do it via special materials or equipment. Mithril, for example, reduces ASF by 10%. Thistledown padding I think is another -5%. Feycraft and Githcraft... not familiar with these (from the PHB II, I think), but I think if you one of them with mithril, thistledown, and the twilight enhancement you can get up to -30%.

The Glyphstone
2007-10-26, 01:15 PM
I've actually always wondered if they've ever really given a justification for why Divine casting isn't affected by spell failure, but Arcane casting is. And no, I don't consider "because it's called ARCANE spell failure" to be a suitable answer.:smallbiggrin:

Jasdoif
2007-10-26, 01:20 PM
I've actually always wondered if they've ever really given a justification for why Divine casting isn't affected by spell failure, but Arcane casting is. And no, I don't consider "because it's called ARCANE spell failure" to be a suitable answer.:smallbiggrin:I'm guessing that the fathomless forces that power arcane magic are less forgiving dance critics then the variably-fathomable forces that power divine magic. :smalltongue:

Kurald Galain
2007-10-26, 01:28 PM
I've actually always wondered if they've ever really given a justification for why Divine casting isn't affected by spell failure, but Arcane casting is.

As has been pointed out before, D&D is pretty much the only game, setting, or universe where for an arbitrary reason spellcasters are prohibited from wearing metal armor (or, in earlier editions, any armor). The old excuse for that was that they were not strong enough (even if they had a strength score of 18).

The reason is game balance. Various threads on class power levels have shown how successful this has been in balancing the wizard. It's one of those zero-th edition artifacts that has never really been thought about since then.

Douglas
2007-10-26, 01:29 PM
One level of Spellthief (Complete Adventurer) plus the Master Spellthief feat (Complete Scoundrel) allows ignoring spell failure for light armor for all arcane casting classes. By RAW the Battle Caster feat does not improve this, but you might be able to talk your DM into ruling otherwise.

ZeroNumerous
2007-10-26, 01:32 PM
Warmage 8. You can cast in Medium armor and ignore ASF.

Mithral Full Plate. You now have Medium Full Plate Armor.

You wasted 8 levels to get it, but there it is. No feats burnt.

Dausuul
2007-10-26, 01:32 PM
Battle Sorceror + Battle Caster + mithral armor.

Battle Sorceror variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm) (scroll down a ways) gives you light armor while still having access to the full range of spells. You also get rogue BAB, one martial weapon proficiency of your choice, and d8 Hit Dice, at the cost of fewer spells per day and spells known.

Battle Caster feat (from Complete Arcane) increases the light armor to medium.

Make your full plate out of mithral and it counts as medium.

There you go. I recommend augmenting your meager spells known with the Arcane Disciple feat from Complete Divine. Might also want to grab Medium Armor Proficiency so you can still hit with touch spells.

(Actually, now I think about it, that'd make a pretty fine gish. Pick up the War domain and you can even use divine power, albeit only once a day. I might have to try this with my next character...)

Arceliar
2007-10-26, 01:44 PM
Still Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#stillSpell)

..it's there for a reason. Fighter 1 / Wizard 5 / Eldritch Knight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/eldritchKnight.htm) and you truely are batman.

EDIT: that's the core-only way to do it at least.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-10-26, 02:15 PM
Still Spell
Battle Caster
Battle Sorceror Variant
Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt (no feats or anything required here!)

Just to name a few.

John Campbell
2007-10-26, 02:39 PM
If you're willing to play a dwarf, there's Runesmith, from Races of Stone. Five-level "+1 level of pre-existing arcane caster" prestige class. It provides, at class level 1, the ability to trade out the somatic components of any or all of your spells for an additional (non-eschewable) material component, with no spell level adjustment or other cost. Basically, Stilled everything pretty much for free. Other nice abilities at 3rd and 5th, too (and a useless one at 2nd), and better saves and HD than Wizard.

I'm currently playing a Fighter 2/Wizard 6/EK 4/Runesmith 2. My spell progression's three levels behind (Practiced Spellcaster to keep my effective CL up, though), but I've got full access to the entire Sor/Wiz spell list with no spell failure in +3 adamantine full plate, and I'll still have my 9th level spells at 20th (and also four attacks per round).

ZeroNumerous
2007-10-26, 02:42 PM
Still Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#stillSpell)

..it's there for a reason. Fighter 1 / Wizard 5 / Eldritch Knight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/eldritchKnight.htm) and you truely are batman.

EDIT: that's the core-only way to do it at least.

Expounding upon this idea..

Fighter 1 / Sorcerer 6 / Eldritch Knight 10 / Sorcerer +3.

Practical Metamagic: Still Spell + Arcane Preparation. Throw in Arcane Disciple for the Competition Domain and you get Divine Power and Righteous Might for free.

All your spells are stilled for no increase.

Chronos
2007-10-26, 03:06 PM
Still Spell

..it's there for a reason.This is what I was going to suggest, with the addendum that several spells lack somatic components to begin with.


Fighter 1 / Sorcerer 6 / Eldritch Knight 10 / Sorcerer +3.If you don't mind being a shining beacon of justice, Paladin generally works better in sorc gishes than Fighter. Put that high charisma to some good use.

Dausuul
2007-10-26, 03:13 PM
This is what I was going to suggest, with the addendum that several spells lack somatic components to begin with.

If you don't mind being a shining beacon of justice, Paladin generally works better in sorc gishes than Fighter. Put that high charisma to some good use.

You have to dip two levels for it to really shine, though. And two caster levels for a sorc is rather painful.

Kurald Galain
2007-10-26, 03:24 PM
You have to dip two levels for it to really shine, though. And two caster levels for a sorc is rather painful.

Yes, but paladin/1 still shines better than fighter/1.

However, personally I would never use a sorcerer for gishing, because a sorcerer is one level behind wizards to begin with, and will lose more to the gishness.

Barbarian/Wizard works surprisingly well if you can fluff past the apparent incongruity. So does swashbuckler/beguiler (who comes with armor proficiency).

Also, if you want, there's Knight Phantom, which is an improved version of the Eldritch Knight.

Suzuro
2007-10-26, 03:32 PM
I would personally prefer the Warmage, sure you can only get up to medium armor, a sure you have to take a few levels in it before you can even get up to medium armor, and sure you have a limited spell list. But with that comes both the ability to fight with a good armor as well as giving you access to all levels of spells

Kantolin
2007-10-26, 03:36 PM
I believe there's a substitution level in the Complete Mage which permits a figther multiclass to ignore the spell failure in light armour and shields.

This could then be upgraded to medium as has been stated.

waynethegame
2007-10-26, 03:37 PM
There is an alternate class ability in Complete Mage that you take as a Fighter, and allows you to ignore ASF in light armor for (Fighter Levels + 1). I think it's pretty cool, if you can get it allowed (especially in a core game) but because you'd have to take Fighter levels a lot of people will dismiss it.

ZeroNumerous
2007-10-26, 03:40 PM
If you don't mind being a shining beacon of justice, Paladin generally works better in sorc gishes than Fighter. Put that high charisma to some good use.

Feh. Paladin. I'd take Fighter any day of the week myself.


However, personally I would never use a sorcerer for gishing, because a sorcerer is one level behind wizards to begin with, and will lose more to the gishness.

Unfortunately that does not address the problem inherent in the OP's request. He wants to ignore ASF. A Wizard who prepares all his spells with Still Spell pays out the ass for that +1 level increase.

A sorcerer, however, can use Arcane Preparation and Practical Metamagic to auto-Still all his spells.

Jack Mann
2007-10-26, 03:44 PM
I believe there's a substitution level in the Complete Mage which permits a figther multiclass to ignore the spell failure in light armour and shields.

This could then be upgraded to medium as has been stated.

Unfortunately, you can only use it on spells equal to or lower than your fighter class level + 1. So it's pretty much worthless.

EDIT: Ack! Ninja'd.

kemmotar
2007-10-26, 04:59 PM
Actually if you take 4 levels in duskblade and the battle caster feat you can have heavy armor with no ASF. Plus you get some good BAB and abilities...You do lose 4 levels of spellcasting but if you really want to go for the spiked full plate wizard that's the price:smalltongue:

Kurald Galain
2007-10-26, 05:09 PM
He wants to ignore ASF. A Wizard who prepares all his spells with Still Spell pays out the ass for that +1 level increase.


Yes, but a wizard that takes two levels in some other class for the ability to ignore ASF, effectively also is a caster level lower, so the two are tied.

And as I recall, Practical Metamagic cannot reduce the spell level increase below +1, so it doesn't actually work with Still Spell.

(edit) oh, and medium armor isn't worth it, considering the almost complete lack of advantage medium armors give over light armors.

Dausuul
2007-10-26, 05:30 PM
Yes, but a wizard that takes two levels in some other class for the ability to ignore ASF, effectively also is a caster level lower, so the two are tied.

And as I recall, Practical Metamagic cannot reduce the spell level increase below +1, so it doesn't actually work with Still Spell.

(edit) oh, and medium armor isn't worth it, considering the almost complete lack of advantage medium armors give over light armors.

Mithral. Any armor made of mithral counts as one grade lighter, so mithral full plate is considered medium armor.

I still favor the battle sorceror route, myself... you lose some spells known and some spells per day, but you still get access to high-level spells at the same time you normally would. Though the runesmith is also a good choice, if you don't mind dumping three feats on it to get the requisite Heavy Armor Proficiency.

kemmotar
2007-10-26, 05:39 PM
Add the nimbleness property and you got light full plate armor:smallwink:

Kurald Galain
2007-10-26, 05:43 PM
Mithral. Any armor made of mithral counts as one grade lighter, so mithral full plate is considered medium armor.

Yes, but if you go down that route, mithril chain shirts don't have an ASF, and given sufficient money you can stack other enhancements on whatever kind of armor you like that reduce its ASF effectively to zero. Seems to me those are more practical than spending a bunch of feats to gain heavy armor proficiency :smalltongue:

Kaelik
2007-10-26, 05:47 PM
(edit) oh, and medium armor isn't worth it, considering the almost complete lack of advantage medium armors give over light armors.

Mithril Full Plate?

Dausuul
2007-10-26, 08:02 PM
Yes, but if you go down that route, mithril chain shirts don't have an ASF, and given sufficient money you can stack other enhancements on whatever kind of armor you like that reduce its ASF effectively to zero. Seems to me those are more practical than spending a bunch of feats to gain heavy armor proficiency :smalltongue:

Oh, eminently so--casters don't really need much in the way of AC anyhow. Me, I just stick with good old-fashioned mage armor when I'm playing a sorceror. But the OP wanted an arcane caster in full plate, so we're doing our best to oblige. :smallwink:

RTGoodman
2007-10-26, 08:17 PM
Actually if you take 4 levels in duskblade and the battle caster feat you can have heavy armor with no ASF. Plus you get some good BAB and abilities...You do lose 4 levels of spellcasting but if you really want to go for the spiked full plate wizard that's the price:smalltongue:

Doesn't work that way. The Duskblade's Armored Spellcasting class ability, like all the other classes I know of with the ability, says "This ability does not apply to spells gained from a different spellcasting class."

Of course, Duskblade is still pretty awesome, despite not having the complete Sor/Wiz spell list. And if there's another spell that you absolutely need, I guess you could blow a feat on Extra Spell (considering it doesn't say that you have to pick a spell from your class's spell list - FAQ or Errata may have changed this, though).

Temp
2007-10-26, 08:49 PM
Doesn't work that way. The Duskblade's Armored Spellcasting class ability, like all the other classes I know of with the ability, says "This ability does not apply to spells gained from a different spellcasting class."

Right. It's the Arcane Channeling ability that casters occasionally dip Duskblade to get (but that doesn't happen much without their main class providing accelerated casting like the Ur-Priest, Sublime Chord or--to a lesser extent--the Chameleon).

Doresain
2007-10-26, 09:09 PM
seems like i caused a tad bit more trouble than i intended...

throwing practicality and optimization out the window, the best route to getting a fighter/mage type character in full plate, thus making a friggin sweet looking guy that can fling spells around as wellas swing swords, would be...

Temp
2007-10-26, 09:45 PM
Duskblade followed by Battle Sorcerer.

There's no reason to take fighter levels with either of those.

If you want a real Fighter/Wizard (the actual classes, I mean) you'll have to rely on Still Spell pretty heavily, which'll hurt.


Actually, is Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) an option? It's a neat class... like Eldritch Knight on steroids with more specific prerequisites.

John Campbell
2007-10-26, 09:49 PM
Do you object to being a dwarf? Are you allowed access to Races of Stone?

If you don't, and you are, I'm still recommending Runesmith.

Runesmith 1 lets you Still all your spells practically for free, thus allowing casting in any armor with no arcane spell failure. It's a full spell progression class; the levels stack with your pre-existing arcane caster levels. Dwarven Fighter 1/Wizard 1 gets all the prereqs except the skill requirement for free, and can fulfill the skill requirement at 5th level easily.

There's another prestige class in Races of Stone, the Stoneblessed, that'll let you qualify for Runesmith without being a dwarf, but it's probably not worth it. You'd be better off just taking Still Spell and Stilling everything the hard way.

Dausuul
2007-10-26, 09:57 PM
seems like i caused a tad bit more trouble than i intended...

throwing practicality and optimization out the window, the best route to getting a fighter/mage type character in full plate, thus making a friggin sweet looking guy that can fling spells around as wellas swing swords, would be...

"Best?" If we are throwing practicality and optimization out the window, how are we judging "best?" I mean, what do you want to do with this guy? There are several ways to put an arcanist in full plate, but which is the best depends on what you're looking for.

Temp
2007-10-26, 10:05 PM
"Best?" If we are throwing practicality and optimization out the window, how are we judging "best?" I mean, what do you want to do with this guy? There are several ways to put an arcanist in full plate, but which is the best depends on what you're looking for.

Yeah... my response was just the easiest solutions to come to mind (Battle Sorcerer can be out-optimized pretty easily. The other ones are pretty solid at the things they do, though). To actually meet what you want, we'll need to know this stuff.

RTGoodman
2007-10-26, 11:27 PM
That depends on what you mean by "best."

Certainly one of the best ideas, if you've got the gold, is to just play a regular Wizard with a +X Twilight Mithral Chainshirt.

If you're looking for what's easiest, that's probably just a straight Duskblade build. It's got casting and armor, and some other cool stuff (such as the Arcane Channeling or whatever it's called).

If you're looking for a good balance between Fighter and Wizard without worrying about optimizing the character, then use the Fighter variant from Complete Mage and go with something like Fighter 6/Wizard (and/or full-casting PrC) 14, which will get you 7th level spells and the ability to cast them in armor.

EDIT: And if the armor that the builds above isn't heavy enough for you, you can use the Battle Caster feat for most of the builds, I think.

Doresain
2007-10-27, 01:28 AM
"Best?" If we are throwing practicality and optimization out the window, how are we judging "best?" I mean, what do you want to do with this guy? There are several ways to put an arcanist in full plate, but which is the best depends on what you're looking for.

by best i mean the most fun to play...i dunno, i guess i havent been completely specific in what im looking for...the main character from Overlord would be a good example i suppose...he wears armor (either medium or heavy, not sure which), wields an axe and flings spells around...and looks friggin sweet while doing it...

edit: all books are at my disposal, i just have to find them...my DM is pretty lenient as long as we have a copy of the book (hard copy or on disc)

Ninja Chocobo
2007-10-27, 02:47 AM
If you're willing to play a dwarf, there's Runesmith, from Races of Stone. Five-level "+1 level of pre-existing arcane caster" prestige class. It provides, at class level 1, the ability to trade out the somatic components of any or all of your spells for an additional (non-eschewable) material component, with no spell level adjustment or other cost. Basically, Stilled everything pretty much for free. Other nice abilities at 3rd and 5th, too (and a useless one at 2nd), and better saves and HD than Wizard.

This. I'm going to progress into one myself, wearing full plate and a tower shield.
This is normally 75% ASF, but with Runesmith, it's totally free.

Temp
2007-10-27, 03:29 AM
by best i mean the most fun to play...i dunno, i guess i havent been completely specific in what im looking for...the main character from Overlord would be a good example i suppose...he wears armor (either medium or heavy, not sure which), wields an axe and flings spells around...and looks friggin sweet while doing it...

edit: all books are at my disposal, i just have to find them...my DM is pretty lenient as long as we have a copy of the book (hard copy or on disc)
What level are we looking at? Some builds take a while to get moving (Runesmith), some don't (Duskblade).

I guess I can list the benefits of a couple that come to mind:

Duskblade (PHB2): Channel Spells through your weapon, the spell list is pretty blaster-based. Intelligence based so you'll have decent skill points. You don't need to spend any feats for Mithril Fullplate access.

Battle Sorcerer (UA): Can pretty much be whatever you want depending on your spell list. This class is the first to qualify for Arcane Strike (CW), which is handy. This class (and pretty much all non-Duskblade/non-Spellswords) needs Smiting Spell (PHB2) to deliver spells through a weapon. This needs Battle Caster to use Medium armor. Charisma-based, so you'd be a better diplomat.

Fighter 1/Wizard 4/Runesmith(RoS): This class doesn't use somatic components at all. It doesn't have the best HD or BA so you might consider jumping straight into Abjurant Champion after a single level here and finish RS at levels 12-15. This class is very Dwarf-y.

Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword (CW): This class gains armored casting painfully slowly, making you either risk wasting spells or making you trade in your armor for heavier stuff every two levels. It's ten levels long and only gains five Caster levels. Full BA, D10 HD and spell channeling don't really make up for it. The Duskblade is basically a base class version of this and does everything better (albeit with a less versatile spell list).

Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4)(5N): I'm probably more of a fan of this class than it deserves, but it has full BA, d8 HD and 9/10 casting. It requires Still Spell, so you have an excuse to wear heavy armor before enterance. It lets you cast in light armor at level 1, which is neat. You still need Battle Caster at level 6 to make it work, though. The class also has the annoying trait of overlapping class abilities with its prerequisites instead of actually improving the prereqs


Bard: Bards are cool. All the cool kids do 'em. Maybe pick up two or four Paladin Levels and the Battle Caster, Snowflake Wardance, Devoted Performer, Arcane Strike and possibly Divine Might feats as you level up and you'll be an unstoppable force of utter awesome.


Not that I'm a Bard fan or anything.


[Edit:]Maybe snag a few Profession (Astrology) ranks too if you go Bard:smallcool:

Ossian
2007-10-27, 04:23 AM
Well, as for why arcane magic is affected and Divine magic isn't, I suppose it's because of the semantic component. Only spells with an "s" component suffer from A.S.Fail. %.
Armor hinders your movements, and is heavy most of the time. Since clerics in my campaigns have always been town NPC (basically, non heroic healers and very few true clerics) I've never bothered looking into their spell lists. Just done that, and DANG! There is the arcane spell failure...hmmm...Well, I 'd rule they get ASF too if there is an S component and they wear armor. After all, ritual movement is ritual movement.

Still, I must say that I like SF. Trying so hard eliminate it is a strngly unbalancing factor in my opinion, because it's a bit like having a cake AND eating it. Mages are already fairly powerful. What's even the point of being a pure fighter (other than the narrative one) if you can be a decent melee character (enought to face goblinoids and possibly more) AND be able to cast globes of fire, shards of ice, tell the future, see in the dark and be real scary? Full plate is really a sweet armor, and the worse you can by has just 35& of ASF. Not that high actually. Add the inevitable bonuses that you can buy with enough gold, and there you go. You get +7 to +10 to armor (wow, a bank's caveau) AND if you roll just 35 (possibly less) you still can use the artillery. Sure, in a life or death, do-or-die situation you might not afford to fail a spell, but often that really happens, especially with all the party to back you up?

Allowing such classes as the ones described above, or class/feats/items combinations, would still be OK, but you'd need to double a couple of factors, namely the cost of such items and the "normal" ASF they should possess (and +10 DC to crafting them, so that no one short of Aephestus or Wayland can craft them).

O.

PS
Take my post for what it is. As I have understood, we run a bit peculiar D&D campaigns. Mostly warriors and rogues allowed (perhaps a few low level rangers bards for flavored multiclassing), few if any magic items, and those that appear are there only because they are plot devices with a role. Mastercraft items (i.e. weapons and armors non magical +1) are still an asset, and there are not so many (and core-only) arcane spell casters, with clerics and healers mostly, as I said, as NPCs.

Temp
2007-10-27, 04:32 AM
I suppose it's because of the semantic component
That word--I do not think it means what you think it means.:smallbiggrin:


Full plate is really a sweet armor, and the worse you can by has just 35& of ASF.

Having a third of your class abilities go to waste in order to gain an extra 4 points of armor class (less if your dex is higher than 13...Wizards tend to have higher scores there if they can afford them) is not a good deal. Full plate is not "sweet" at all for your average Wizard*.




*Unless they lose their spellbook, in which case they need any help they can get.

Ossian
2007-10-27, 04:44 AM
Just a typo. I meant "somatic", not semantic. :smallbiggrin:


If the spell lacks a somatic component, however, it can be cast with no chance of arcane spell failure. (hypertext D20)

and


1 : of, relating to, or affecting the body especially [...]
Merriam webster.

So, I'd say it refers to moving your body and your hands above all in a certain predetermined manner that leaves small room for mistakes and imperfections.

Also from hypertext:
Somatic (S)
A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.

EDIT: yes, 1/3 is a lot, but the armor bonus is a big +7 (stack it with a few protective spells and you're Picard's Enterprise!).
With a mastercraft item the ACP and the Max dex bonus can even improved.
Plus, with all the mithral stuff you can acquire, loot or just buy at higher levels, the 1/3 becomes a lot less, even 1/10 or just nothing.

O.

Temp
2007-10-27, 04:52 AM
Mage Armor and Greater Mage armor combined with Bracers of Armor do nearly the same thing (4 and 2 less AC respectively assuming a Dexterity of 13 or less) without any failure. Wizards also have so many non-AC defenses that heavy armor just isn't that great of a move:

Usually it's cheaper to pump the Bracers' armor bonus than it is to lower plate to ASF 5% or less.

Doresain
2007-10-27, 10:01 AM
weird...i somehow skipped over the knight phantom...interesting abilities...duskblade, of course, sounds awesome im just having a little trouble actually finding the PHBII :smallannoyed:

thanks everyone for the warrior-caster types :smallbiggrin:

Starbuck_II
2007-10-27, 10:41 AM
Mage Armor and Greater Mage armor combined with Bracers of Armor do nearly the same thing (4 and 2 less AC respectively assuming a Dexterity of 13 or less) without any failure. Wizards also have so many non-AC defenses that heavy armor just isn't that great of a move:

Usually it's cheaper to pump the Bracers' armor bonus than it is to lower plate to ASF 5% or less.

Mage is +4, G. is +6 : both 1 hr/level.
Bracers are only better than if you get +7 ones.

Really, +1 Mithral Twilight Chain Shirt is awesome. Better AC than Mage armor, but 1 less than G. Mage.
Really, cheaper than Bracers even.

UserClone
2007-10-27, 11:49 AM
What about the Book of Exalted Deeds? It has that Greater Luminous Armor, and you only lose a bit of Strength after the spell is over. And all you have to do to get it is be Annoyingly Anal Retentively Good.

UserClone
2007-10-27, 11:51 AM
That word--I do not think it means what you think it means.:smallbiggrin:

WHAT?!? INCONCIEVEABLE!!!:smallwink:

Belkarseviltwin
2007-10-27, 12:55 PM
As has been pointed out before, D&D is pretty much the only game, setting, or universe where for an arbitrary reason spellcasters are prohibited from wearing metal armor (or, in earlier editions, any armor). The old excuse for that was that they were not strong enough (even if they had a strength score of 18).

The current reason is somatic components- which is why still spells or ones without somatic components can be cast in armour.

Also, Warhammer (definitely WFB, perhaps WFRP) has this restriction. Although it was copied from D&D, like a lot of Warhammer, the reason is different. It's that large amounts of metal warp the Winds of Magic- so wizards can still wear non-metal armour (usually made of enchanted wood). This also means that the Empire Steam Tank is immune to magic!

Chronos
2007-10-27, 01:20 PM
Mage Armor and Greater Mage armor combined with Bracers of Armor do nearly the same thing (4 and 2 less AC respectively assuming a Dexterity of 13 or less)There's no reason to combine Mage Armor with Bracers of Armor: They both give an armor bonus, so they don't stack (nor does either stack with mundane armor).

And to put Arcane Spell Failure into perspective, most of the best wizard spells already have a failure chance built in, with the saving throw, and nobody seems to really have a problem with that.

Temp
2007-10-27, 01:47 PM
There's no reason to combine Mage Armor with Bracers of Armor: They both give an armor bonus, so they don't stack (nor does either stack with mundane armor). Oh, my mistake, then. I thought Bracers of Armor were enhancement bonuses for some reason.

Dausuul
2007-10-27, 09:22 PM
And to put Arcane Spell Failure into perspective, most of the best wizard spells already have a failure chance built in, with the saving throw, and nobody seems to really have a problem with that.

Oh, everybody has a problem with it. See the insane lengths to which casters will go in order to jack their save DCs up just a little bit more.

The difference is that there's no way to get rid of the spell failure chance from the saving throw, while there's a very easy way to get rid of the ASF chance. And since arcane casters don't need much AC anyhow, the trade-off is really a no-brainer.

Jack Mann
2007-10-27, 09:50 PM
I think spells with semantic components could be fun.

Chronos
2007-10-27, 10:02 PM
Judging from some of the interpretation debates I've seen here, I think that all spells have semantic components :smallwink: .

the_tick_rules
2007-10-28, 12:25 AM
i'd go for the class angle. wizards/sorc feats are better put towards enhancing their magic.