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Lord Tataraus
2007-10-27, 10:09 AM
In the Water, Earth, Fire and Air (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54063) thread, it was determined to make new Martial Artist classes. So, that is what this thread is for (so as not to derail the other thread).

Martial Artist
Hit Dice: d8
Class Skills: Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) (Int), Knowledge (Geography) (Int), Knowledge (History) (Int), Knowledge (Local) (Int), Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex)
Skill Points at Each Level: 6 + int modifier

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+0|Unarmed Strike, Ki pool, AC Bonus, Style

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+0|Weapon Strike, Bonus Feat, Style

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+1|Bonus Feat, Style

4th|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+1|Style

5th|
+5|
+4|
+4|
+1|Style

6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+5|
+2|Bonus Feat, Style

7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+2|Style

8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+6|
+2|Style

9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+3|Style

10th|
+10/+5|
+7|
+7|
+3|Style

11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+7|
+3|Style

12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+8|
+4|Style

13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+8|
+4|Style

14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+9|
+4|Style

15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+9|
+5|Style

16th|
+16/11/+6/+1|
+10|
+10|
+5|Style

17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+10|
+5|Style

18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+11|
+6|Style

19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+11|
+6|Style

20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+12|
+6|Style[/table]

Styles: At each level of Martial Artist she may advance one level in any one of the styles (Dragon Scholar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3423320&postcount=7), Hawk-Eye Sniper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3423293&postcount=4), Mantis Blade Fencer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3486203&postcount=157), Mountain Protector (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3423313&postcount=6), Ocean Sentinel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3423305&postcount=5), Tiger Blade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3494249&postcount=188), Wind Warrior[see below]). For example, a Martial Artist may choose to advance the Wind Warrior style for her first three levels, gaining the first abilities of the first three levels of Wind Warrior, then decides to take two levels of Mountain Protector, gaining the abilities of the first two levels of Mountain Protector. A Martial Artist is free to switch between styles as much as she likes. A short summray of the styles:
[B]Dragon Scholar - A Warrior who favors straight swords and is taught to strike true and hard, trained to emulate fire. They are scholars as much as warriors, holding intelligence above all else, including strength. They are master tacticians.
Hawk-Eye Sniper - An archer who is a master at picking out targets far away and making incredibly accurate shots. They embody the sharp eye and quick precision of the hawk. They are well known for making many quick shots following a sniping shot that failed to bring down its target.
Mantis Blade Fencer - A warrior who embodies the patience and quick jabs of the mantis. These warriors are well trained in the art of counter attacks and parrying. Their greatest weapon is their patience.
Mountain Protector - A warrior who favors large, powerful weapons such as the axe. They embody the strength and resilence of the earth, being able to absorb deadly blows as well as giving them. They are the most powerful, yet lack mobility, preferring to stand strong in one place and let their enemies come to them.
Ocean Sentinel - A warrior who favors spears and quick weapons for the purpose of counter attacking. They are the greatest counter attackers, preferring to trick their opponents into attacking them so they can make numerous hits against them, embodying the relentlessness of the ocean. These warriors are not afraid to be hit and see scars as a sign of a great master.
Tiger Blade - A warrior who favors smaller, dual-wielded slashing weapons and fierce attacks. They train to embody the fierce slashing of the tiger's attacks, preferring to charge their opponents and slash out with many attacks. They are the most fierce, rash, and bloodthirsty.
Wind Warrior - A warrior of mobility who favors dexterous weapons and quarterstaves especially. They embody the quick movement of the air and are always dodging and leaping out of the way of attacks and then lashing out with a quick spurt of numerous attacks before dodging back again into defense.

Unarmed Strike: A Martial Artist gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat and deals 1d4 damage when using an unarmed strike (for a medium creature). All style levels stack to determine when unarmed damage increases. The increases are as follows: 1d6, 1d8, 1d10, 2d6, 2d8, 2d10, 3d6. The damage does not increase passed 3d6.

AC Bonus: While a Martial Artist is wearing no more than light armor and have no more than light encumbrance, she may add your wisdom modifier to AC. This bonus applies to both touch and flat-footed AC. Additionally, a Martial Artist gains a defense bonus that increases her AC. These bonuses stack.

Ki Pool: A Martial Artist has a Ki pool with a number of points equal to 1/2 her class level plus her wisdom modifier. These points can be spent each encounter to execute a technique and are refreshed after every encounter.

Weapon Strike: A Martial Artist may deal damage with a class weapon equal to her unarmed strike damage. Additionally, a Martial Artist may take fighter-only feats as if she had fighter level equal to her Martial Artist levels.

Wind Warrior
{table=head]Level|Special|Defense Bonus

1st|Flurry of Blows|
+4

2nd|Acrobatics, Evasion|
+4

3rd|Fast Movement, Swift Step|
+5

4th|Uncanny Dodge, Unarmed Damage Increase|
+5

5th|Sway in the Wind (+2)|
+5

6th|Fury of the Wind|
+6

7th|Improved Flurry of Blows|
+6

8th|Improved Uncanny Dodge, Unarmed Damage Increase|
+6

9th|Fast Movement|
+7

10th|Lift of the Gale, Improved Evasion|
+7

11th|Improved Swift Step|
+7

12th|Sway in the Wind (+4), Unarmed Damage Increase|
+8

13th|-|
+8

14th|Greater Flurry of Blows|
+8

15th|Fast Movement|
+9

16th|Unarmed Damage Increase|
+9

17th|Sway in the Wind (immediate action)|
+9

18th|Fast Movement|
+10

19th|Greater Swift Step|
+10

20th|Master of the Breeze, Sway in the Wind (+6)|
+10

[/table]

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Wind Warriors are proficient with the Quarterstaff, War Fan, Light Crossbow, Javelin, Spear, Longspear, and Short Spear as well as her unarmed strikes. Wind Warriors are not proficient in any armor or shields.

Flurry of Blows: Whenever a Wind Warrior makes a standard action attack, she may make one extra attack at a -5 penalty. Whenever a Wind Warrior makes a full-round attack, she may make an extra attack at a -2 penalty. A Wind Warrior must expend 1 Ki point to use this ability.

Acrobatics: A Wind Warrior may add her wisdom modifier as a bonus to all tumble, jump, and balance checks

Fast Movement: A Wind Warrior moves as fast as the wind to stay out of harm's way. A Wind Warrior gains a +10ft bonus to her base land speed. This bonus increase to +20ft 9th level, +30ft at 15th level and +40ft at 18th level.

Swift Step: A Wind Warrior can expend 1 Ki point to instantly take a 5 foot step that provokes an attack of opportunity. This ability may be used as an immediate action, but not more than once per round.

Sway in the Wind: A Wind Warrior can increase her defenses by moving too fast for others to hit her. By taking a move action, a Wind Warrior may spend a number of Ki points up to her wisdom modifier, granting her a +2 dodge bonus to AC per point spent until the end of her next turn. This bonus increase to +4 at 12th level and +6 at 20th level. At 17th level a Wind Warrior can instead activate this technique by taking an immediate action, though she must take a move action on her next turn to recover.

Fury of the Wind: At the end of a charge, if the Wind Warrior moved at least up to her base land speed, she may make a full-round attack. A Wind Warrior must expend 1 Ki point to use this ability.

Improved Flurry of Blows: The penalty for the extra attack in a standard action is reduced to -2 and the penalty is removed for a full round action. Additionally, you may make one more extra attack at a -5 and -2 on a standard action attack and full-round attack respectively. A Wind Warrior must expend 1 Ki point to use this ability.

Lift of the Gale: A Wind Warrior is always considered to have a running start on all jump checks.

Improved Swift Step: A Wind Warrior can expend 1 Ki point to instantly take up to two 5 foot steps which provoke attacks of opportunity. This ability may be used as an immediate action, but not more than once per round.

Greater Flurry of Blows: The penalty for the first extra attack in a standard action is removed. The penalty of the second extra attack in a standard action is reduced to -2 and removed for a full-round attack. Additionally, you may make one more extra attack at a -5 and -2 on a standard action attack and full-round attack respectively. A Wind Warrior must expend 1 Ki point to use this ability.

Greater Swift Step: A Wind Warrior can expend 1 Ki point to instantly take up to three 5 foot steps which provoke attacks of opportunity. This ability may be used as an immediate action, but not more than once per round.

Master of the Breeze: A Wind Warrior who has mastered her style is a paragon of dexterous and flowing attacks and dodges. A Wind Warrior may resolve her attacks with class weapons and unarmed strikes as touch attacks. A Wind Warrior must spend 1 Ki point per attack to use this ability.

Hazkali
2007-10-27, 01:04 PM
Check here (http://www.pifro.com/dnd) to get a better way of tabling up your class. At the moment, it looks like a weaker version of the Monk, which is not a power level you should particularly be aiming for...

Attilargh
2007-10-27, 01:17 PM
I'll start sketching up my mobile lightweight hitter with specialised training, then. Fighting styles will contain a mix of numerical bonuses, feats and class features that will probably get shamelessly stolen off from other classes. I ran out of ideas toward the end, so any ideas regarding additional class abilities are welcome.

Names are hard to make up. Therefore, the nameless class that is still very much work in progress:

[class name here]

Alignment – Any

Hit Die - d8

Class Skills - Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (Bending Arts), Knowledge (History), Knowledge (Local), Knowledge (Religion), Listen, Move Silently, Perform, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Swim, Tumble and Use Rope
Skill Points at 1st Level – (4 + Int modifier) x4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level - (4 + Int modifier)

[class name here]
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+0|
+2|
+2|AC Bonus, Unarmed Strike, Fighting Style

2nd|
+2|
+0|
+3|
+3|Uncanny Dodge, Fast Movement (+10 ft.)

3rd|
+3|
+1|
+3|
+3|Evasion

4th|
+4|
+1|
+4|
+4| Fighting Style

5th|
+5|
+1|
+4|
+4| Spring Attack

6th|
+6/+1|
+2|
+5|
+5|

7th|
+7/+2|
+2|
+5|
+5| Improved Uncanny dodge

8th|
+8/+3|
+2|
+6|
+6| Fighting Style

9th|
+9/+4|
+3|
+6|
+6| Acrobatic Charge

10th|
+10/+5|
+3|
+7|
+7| Pounce

11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+3|
+7|
+7|

12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+4|
+8|
+8| Fighting Style

13th|
13/+8/+3|
+4|
+8|
+8| Improved Evasion

14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+4|
+9|
+9|

15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+5|
+9|
+9| Blind Fight

16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+5|
+10|
+10| Fighting Style

17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+5|
+10|
+10|

18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+6|
+11|
+11|

19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+6|
+11|
+11|

20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+6|
+12|
+12|Fighting Style[/table]

Class Features

Weapon and Armour Proficiency: The [class name here] is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, one exotic weapon of her choice and light armour, but not with shields.

AC Bonus (Ex): When wearing light or no armour and unencumbered, the [class name here] adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC.

This bonus to AC applies even against touch attacks or when the [class name here] is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor heavier than light or when she carries a medium or heavy load.

Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a [class name here] gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. This class feature is identical to that of the Monk. When attacking with a weapon she is proficient with, the [insert class here] can deal her unarmed damage instead of her weapon damage. The damage type and any special materials or properties of the weapon are unaffected, but its critical multiplier and threat range are changed to match those of [class name here]'s unarmed strike.

Fighting Style: At first level, a [class name here] must choose a fighting style. This choice affects the character’s class features but does not restrict his selection of feats or special abilities in any way.

[Styles under construction]

Lord Tataraus
2007-10-27, 09:57 PM
Hawk-Eye Sniper
{table=head]Level|Special|Defense Bonus

1st|Aimed Shot, Weapon Focus|
+3

2nd|Rapid Shot|
+3

3rd|Multi-Weapon Mastery, Evasion|
+4

4th|True Shot, Unarmed Damage Increase|
+4

5th|Ranged Mastery, Weapon Specialization|
+4

6th|Manyshot|
+5

7th|Defensive Archer|
+5

8th|Weapon Mastery, Unarmed Damage Increase|
+5

9th|Focused Shot|
+6

10th|Improved Defensive Archer|
+6

11th|Swift Shot|
+7

12th|Improved Evasion, Unarmed Damage Increase|
+7

13th|Improved Swift Shot|
+7

14th|Doom Shot|
+7

15th|-|
+8

16th|Improved Focused Shot, Unarmed Damage Increase|
+8

17th|Greater Swift Shot|
+8

18th|Hawk Strike|
+9

19th|Deadly Missile|
+9

20th|Master of the Horizon, Unarmed Damage Increase|
+9

[/table]

Proficiencies: All simple and martial ranged weapons (i.e. those with a listed range increment) and one exotic ranged weapon. Light and Medium armor and bucklers.

Aimed Shot: At 1st level, whenever you take a full round action to make a single attack with a ranged weapon, you get a bonus to that attack equal to ˝ your class level rounded down (minimum of 1). A Hawk-Eye Sniper must spend 1 ki point to use this ability.

Weapon Focus: You gain Weapon Focus as a bonus feat in any one ranged weapon at 1st level.

Rapid Shot: You gain Rapid Shot as a bonus feat at 2nd level.

Multi-Weapon Mastery: At 3rd level you gain the ability to switch specialization of weapons for more flexibility. By spending 1 hour practicing with the new weapon, you may change all weapon-specific feats such as weapon focus from one weapon to apply to the new one.

True Shot: At 4th level, whenever you take a full round action to make a single attack with a ranged weapon, you may add you dexterity modifier to the damage. This is in addition to any extra damage due to strength such as with a thrown weapon or composite bow.

Ranged Mastery: At 5th level, whenever you take a full-round action to make a single attack with a ranged weapon, penalties due to range increments are halved. Thus when attacking from 2 range increments away you only take a -1 to the attack. A Hawk-Eye Sniper must spend 1 ki point to use this ability.

Weapon Specialization: You gain Weapon Specialization as a bonus feat at 4th level with the weapon you choose for weapon focus at first level.

Manyshot: You gain Manyshot as a bonus feat at 6th level, except you may apply this feat to thrown weapons and slings.

Defensive Archer: At 7th level, you may make attacks of opportunity with a ranged weapon and does not provoke attacks of opportunity when using a ranged weapon while threatened. In addition, if you have a ranged weapon that cannot make melee attacks (such as with a bow or crossbow) you may make melee attacks with it at no penalty, it is considered a club for all purposes and you are proficient with it.

Weapon Mastery: You gain Ranged Weapon Mastery as a bonus feat at 8th level with the damage type of the weapon you choose for weapon focus at first level.

Focused Shot: At 9th level you may choose to subtract a number from your attack with a ranged weapon that is no more than your base attack bonus to gain a bonus to damage equal to that number.

Improved Defensive Archer: At 10th level, you are considered to threaten all squares within 15ft when wielding a ranged weapon with a range increment of at least 15 feet.

Swift Shot: At 11th level, you may make a ranged attack as a swift action with a -5 penalty to the attack. A Hawk-Eye Sniper must spend 1 ki point to use this ability.

Improved Swift Shot: At 13th level, your Swift Shot improves so that the attack only suffers a -2 penalty. A Hawk-Eye Sniper must spend 1 ki point to use this ability.

Doom Shot: At 14th level, whenever you take a full round action to make a single ranged attack and it hits, the target make a Fortitude save DC 10 + ˝ your class level + your dexterity modifier or take double damage. Creatures immune to critical hits do not take double damage. A Hawk-Eye Sniper must spend 1 ki point to use this ability.

Improved Focused Shot: At 16th level whenever you use your focused shot ability, double the bonus damage gained.

Greater Swift Shot: At 17th level, your Swift Shot improves so that there is no penalty to the attack. A Hawk-Eye Sniper must spend 1 ki point to use this ability.

Hawk Strike: At 18th level, you may use your Swift Shot ability as a free action by spending an additional 1 Ki point.

Deadly Missile: At 19th level, your ranged weapons are considered one size larger for determining damage and are considered adamantine for overcoming damage reduction and dealing damage to objects. A Hawk-Eye Sniper must spend 1 ki point to use this ability amd it lasts for wisdom modifier rounds.

Master of the Horizon: At 20th level whenever you take a full-round action to make a single attack with a ranged weapon, you may ignore all penalties from range increments and increase the range increment of ranged weapons by 25%. If you have the Far Shot feat, instead double the range increment. This increase applies after the increase from Ranged Weapon Mastery. A Hawk-Eye Sniper must spend 1 ki point to use this ability.

Lord Tataraus
2007-10-27, 10:00 PM
Ocean Sentinel
{table=head]Level|Special|Defense Bonus

1st|Tide Strike|
+3

2nd|Combat Reflexes|
+3

3rd|Evasion|
+4

4th|Unarmed Damage Increase|
+4

5th|Wave Strike|
+4

6th|Uncanny Dodge|
+5

7th|Fight with the Tides|
+5

8th|Flow with the Tides, Unarmed Damage Increase|
+5

9th|Greater Tide Strike|
+6

10th|Improved Uncanny Dodge|
+6

11th|Crushing Wave Strike|
+7

12th|Improved Evasion, Unarmed Damage Increase|
+7

13th|-|
+7

14th|Improved Flow with the Tides|
+7

15th|Undertow Counter|
+8

16th|Unarmed Damage Increase|
+8

17th|Fluid Offense|
+8

18th|False Breach|
+9

19th|Greater Flow with the Tides|
+9

20th|Master of the Seas, Unarmed Damage Increase|
+9

[/table]

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Ocean Sentinels are proficient with the Dagger, Club, Short Sword, Rapier, Javelin, Spear, Short Spear, Scimitar, and Boomerang as well as her unarmed strikes. Ocean Sentinels are proficient with all light armor and medium armor and no shields.

Tide Strike: The Ocean's tides are rhythmic and relentless, and the Sentinels reflect that. Whenever an Ocean Sentinel misses an attack by no more than 10, she may make one more attack with the same attack bonus as the missed but with a -4 penalty with a class weapon. An Ocean Sentinel must spend 1 Ki point to use this ability.

Combat Reflexes: An Ocean Sentinel gains Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat. The Ocean Sentinel is not limited on the number of attacks of opportunity she may make against each opponent. If the Ocean Sentinel already has Combat Reflexes, she instead may add her wisdom modifier to her dexterity modifier for determining the number of attacks of opportunity she may make per turn. This bonus stacks with the bonus gained from Dragon Scholar.

Wave Strike: Ocean Sentinels learn from the ocean that when one wave pushing you done, more come to keep you down. Whenever an Ocean Sentinel hits an opponent with an attack of opportunity, she may make an extra attack at the same attack bonus but with a -4 penalty with a class weapon. An Ocean Sentinel must spend 2 Ki point to use this ability.

Fight with the Tides: Whenever a person resists the ocean, the ocean pushes harder, and so do the Sentinels. Whenever an Ocean Sentinel is hit by an attack of opportunity, she may take an attack of opportunity against that opponent with a class weapon. An Ocean Sentinel must spend 1 Ki point to use this ability.

Flow with the Tides: An Ocean Sentinel realizes that every attack brings a counter, but like the tide she can flow with the strike to avoid damage. Whenever an Ocean Sentinel is hit by a targeted attack, she may make a reflect save with a DC equal to the damage dealt +10. If she succeeds, the Ocean Sentinel only takes half damage. This reduced damage only includes the weapon damage and any ability score modifiers added to the damage. An Ocean Sentinel must spend 1 Ki point to use this ability. Evasion and Improved Evasion do not apply to this ability.

Undertow Counter: While the waves crash against their opponents, the current undertow pulls them down, the Ocean Sentinels strive to do the same. Whenever an Ocean Sentinel misses an attack of opportunity, she may make an immediate attack with her off-hand class weapon, shield or unarmed strike at the same attack bonus +4. An Ocean Sentinel must spend 1 Ki point to use this ability.

Greater Tide Strike: An Ocean Sentinel may use her Tide Strike ability with an attack that missed by no more than 15.

Crushing Wave Strike: The ocean is relentless in punishing those who oppose her, as do the Sentinels. An Ocean Sentinel choose to add a number to any attack with a class weapon before the attack is made that is no greater than her class level. If she does so, the Ocean Sentinel's attack provokes a free attack of opportunity from her target who receives the same bonus to his attack.

Improved Flow with the Tides: Whenever an Ocean Sentinel uses the Flow with the Tides ability, the reflex save DC is equal to the damage dealt +5.

Fluid Offense: The Ocean is a fluid body that is ever moving and nothing can ignore it; the Ocean Sentinels attempt to emulate that fluidity. Whenever an opponent enters a square an Ocean Sentinel threatens, she may take an attack of opportunity against that opponent with a class weapon. If an opponent tumbles attempts to tumble into a square threatened by an Ocean Sentinel, the tumble DC is increased by 10.

False Breach: When the ocean is contained, it will lash out in greater fury, as does the Ocean Sentinel. An Ocean Sentinel may take a standard action to provoke an attack of opportunity from every opponent who threatens her. If she does so, all attacks of opportunity made against those opponents this round do not count against her normal limit.

Greater Flow with the Tides: Whenever an Ocean Sentinel uses the Flow with the Tides ability, the reflex save DC is equal to the damage dealt.

Master of the Seas: An Ocean Sentinel who has mastered her style is a paragon of of relentless attacks and superior counters and counter-counters. An Ocean Sentinel gains a +4 bonus against all attacks of opportunity and may chose to provoke an attack of opportunity with any action. Additionally, by spending 3 Ki points, an Ocean Sentinel may take up to two attacks of opportunity with a class weapon against any opponent that misses her with an attack.

Lord Tataraus
2007-10-27, 10:02 PM
Mountain Protector
{table=head]Level|Special|Defense Bonus

1st|Decisive Strike, Unarmed Damage Increase|
+3

2nd|Solid Stance +1d4|
+3

3rd|Crushing Blow|
+4

4th|Solid Stance +2d4, Unarmed Damage Increase|
+4

5th|Body of Rock (1/-)|
+4

6th|Solid Stance +3d4|
+5

7th|Reach of the Mountain (5ft), Unarmed Damage Increase|
+5

8th|Solid Stance +4d4|
+5

9th|Body of Rock (2/-)|
+6

10th|Solid Stance +5d4, Unarmed Damage Increase|
+6

11th|Tremendous Blow|
+6

12th|Solid Stance +6d4|
+7

13th|Body of Rock (3/-), Unarmed Damage Increase|
+7

14th|Solid Stance +7d4|
+7

15th|Improved Tremendous Blow|
+8

16th|Solid Stance +8d4, Unarmed Damage Increase]|
+8

17th|Body of Rock (4/-)|
+8

18th|Solid Stance +9d4|
+9

19th|Body of Rock (5/-)|
+9

20th|Solid Stance +10d4, Master of the Mountain, Unarmed Damage Increase|
+9

[/table]

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Mountain Protectors are proficient with the Light Mace, Heavy Mace, Light Crossbow, Light Hammer, Warhammer, Naginata and Greataxe as well as her unarmed strikes. Mountain Protectors are proficient with all light, medium and heavy armors and all shields except tower shields.

Decisive Strike: A Mountain Protector learns to hit very hard, attempting to drop an opponent as fast as possible. A Mountain Protector may take a -2 penalty on her attack roll to deal double her weapon damage on a successful hit. This only applies to the first attack each round and all other attacks take a -2 penalty as well. A Mountain Protector must spend 1 Ki point to use this ability.

Solid Stance +Xd4: A Mountain Protector is the embodiment of a solid rock, unmoving and impenetrable. If a Mountain Protector does not move this turn and chooses to become flat-footed, she may deal an extra +Xd4 damage with her class weapons once per round. A Mountain Protector must expend 1 Ki point to use this ability.

Crushing Blow: A Mountain Protector backs every blow with tremendous weight, causing great damage. A Mountain Protector may add her constitution modifier to any damage dealt by her class weapons. A Mountain Protector must expend 1 Ki point to use this ability and it lasts for a number of rounds equal to her wisdom modifier.

Body of Rock: A Mountain Protector knows that her power is in absorbing blows, taking no real damage, just like a rock. As long as a Mountain Protector does not move more than 5 feet in this turn, she gains DR1/-. A Mountain Protector must expend 1 Ki point to use this ability and it lasts for a number of rounds equal to her wisdom modifier. At 9th level the damage reduction becomes DR2/-, at 13th level the damage reduction becomes DR3/-, at 17th level the damage reduction becomes DR4/-, and at 19th level the damage reduction becomes DR5/-.

Reach of the Mountain: A Mountain Protector's attack style involves as little moving as possible, but to offset the disadvantage against more maneuverable opponents, the Mountain Protector learns how to reach out and strike hard to reach opponents. The Mountain Protector may increase her reach by 5 feet for one round. A Mountain Protector must spend 1 Ki point to use this ability.

Tremendous Blow: A Mountain Protector puts deadly offense far above her defense. Before making an attack roll, a Mountain Protector may choose to subtract a number from her AC to gain that amount in bonus damage on all her attacks this turn. A Mountain Protector must spend 1 Ki point to use this ability.

Improved Tremendous Blow: When using the Tremendous Blow ability, a Mountain Protector gains twice the subtracted number in bonus damage.

Master of the Mountain: A Mountain Protector who has mastered her style is a paragon of solid strikes and defense, absorbing damage and dealing more than she takes. A Mountain Protector may drop her land speed down to 0 feet to gain DR8/-, a +8 bonus to resist being pushed or tripped and all attacks are considered to be effected by the Solid Stance ability at no cost. If the Mountain Protector would move at least 5 feet, this effect ends immediately. A Mountain Protector must expend 3 Ki point to use this ability and it lasts for a number of rounds equal to her wisdom modifier.

Lord Tataraus
2007-10-27, 10:03 PM
Dragon Scholar
{table=head]Level|Special|Defense Bonus

1st|Warrior Scholar, Precise Strike +1d6, Unarmed Damage Increase|
+4

2nd|Combat Reflexes|
+4

3rd|Flame Form, Insightful Strike|
+5

4th|Scholar's Mettle|
+5

5th|Precise Strike +2d6, Unarmed Damage Increase|
+5

6th|Cunning Strike|
+6

7th|Clever Footing|
+6

8th|Flame Form, Unarmed Damage Increase|
+6

9th|Precise Strike +3d6|
+7

10th|Press the Advantage|
+7

11th|Cunning Dodge|
+7

12th|Tactical Reflexes, Unarmed Damage Increase|
+8

13th|Flame Form, Precise Strike +4d6|
+8

14th|-|
+8

15th|Relentless Flame|
+9

16th|Unarmed Damage Increase|
+9

17th|Precise Strike +5d6|
+9

18th|Flame Form|
+10

19th|Searing Blade|
+10

20th|Flame Form, Master of the Dragon's Flame, Unarmed Damage Increase|
+10

[/table]

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Dragon Scholars are proficient with the Dagger, Light Crossbow, Short Sword, Longsword, Scimitar, and Glaive as well as her unarmed strikes. Dragon Scholars are proficient with all light armor and no shields.

Warrior Scholar: A Dragon Scholar holds intelligence everything else, and the style follows from that creed. A Dragon Scholar may use her intelligence instead of wisdom for all class abilities.

Precise Strike +Xd6: Whenever a Dragon Scholar makes a single attack with a melee weapon including an unarmed strike in one turn she may deal an extra Xd6 damage. This damage does not apply to creatures immune to critical hits, but does apply to sunder attempts. A use of this ability forgoes the first attack of opportunity the Dragon Scholar would otherwise make this round.

Combat Reflexes: A Dragon Scholar gains Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat. If the Dragon Scholar already has Combat Reflexes, she instead may add her intelligence modifier to her dexterity modifier for determining the number of attacks of opportunity she may make per turn. This bonus stacks with the bonus gained from Ocean Sentinel, though Warrior Scholar does not apply to the Ocean Sentinel ability in this case.

Flame Form: A Dragon Scholar is taught the power and precision of fire and uses those teaches to execute unique maneuvers. At 3rd level and then again at 8th, 13th, 18th, and 20th level, a Dragon Scholar gains one of the following maneuvers which can be used as a standard action by expending 1 Ki point.


Lunging Flame - A Dragon Scholar can make a single attack with a class weapon or unarmed strike as if it had reach. If the Dragon Scholar uses a glaive with this form, she instead doubles the reach instead. This form may be used to augment any other form unless otherwise noted.
Dancing Fire - The Dragon Scholar uses the erratic movement of fire to confuse her opponent, making him easier to hit. The Dragon Scholar makes a single melee attack against an opponent's flat-footed AC. If the attack hits, the opponent becomes flat-footed until the beginning of the Dragon Scholar's next turn. This form cannot be used with the Lunging Flame form.
Shower of Sparks - A Dragon Scholar may only use this form with a Dagger, Short Sword or unarmed strike. The Dragon Scholar makes numerous, weak hits against an opponent to cause great injury, just as many small sparks do. The Dragon Scholar makes a single melee attack against an opponent. If that attack hits, decrease the attack roll by -2. If the reduced roll still hits the opponent, continue reducing the attack roll until it misses. The opponent takes damage as if hit by one attack but also takes an extra +1d4 damage per extra hit. This form cannot be used with the Lunging Flame form.
Tongue of Fire - A Dragon Scholar embodies the ferocity and power of fire in one single thrust or cut to cause severe damage to her opponent. The Dragon Scholar makes a single attack roll against an opponent. If the attack hits, the opponent is dealt 2 temporary constitution damage. This damage is recovered after a number of rounds equal to the Dragon Scholar's intelligence modifier.
Dragon's Swath - A Dragon Scholar learns to cut is a viscous circular motion, hitting multiple opponents at once. The Dragon Scholar makes a single attack roll to hit every opponent within reach. This form may only be taken at level 8 or higher.
White Fire Strike - A Dragon Scholar learns that the white fire, though only a tiny flame, is the most powerful of all. The Dragon Scholar uses this knowledge to know how to strike true and deal the most damage in many situations. The Dragon Scholar makes a single attack against an opponent, resolve the attack normally except that the weapon damage is maximized. This form may only be taken at level 8 or higher.
Raging Inferno - A Dragon Scholar realizes the danger of a raging fire and uses it power in dire circumstances. A Dragon Scholar gains a bonus to her strength equal to her intelligence modifier for a number of rounds equal to half her class level. After that duration has ended, the Dragon Scholar must make a DC15 fortitude save or become fatigued.
Fearsome Flames - A Dragon Scholar knows the power of fire better than most, and knows the fear it can cause. A Dragon Scholar makes a single attack against an opponent, if the attack hits the Dragon Scholar may then make an intimidate check. All enemies within 30ft of the target must make a will save or become shaken, the opponent hit must make a will save. If the target succeeds he becomes shaken, otherwise he becomes frightened.


Insightful Strike: A Dragon Scholar study a great amount to increase his knowledge of the most vulnerable areas to hit. A Dragon Scholar may add his intelligence modifier to all attack rolls made with class weapons.

Scholar's Mettle: A Dragon Scholar focuses equally on strength of body and mind, granting her a knowledge that helps to resist the supernatural. A Dragon Scholar may add her intelligence modifier to all will saves.

Cunning Strike: A Dragon Scholar focuses on making precise strike to deal the most damage, waiting for the best opportunity to hit. If a Dragon Scholar makes a single attack as a full-round action, she may add her intelligence modifier as a bonus to damage.

Clever Footing: A Dragon Scholar knows the power of good footing and measured movement, using his knowledge to his advantage and against his opponent. Whenever a Dragon Scholar provokes an attack of opportunity, she may spend 1 Ki point to gain a bonus to AC against all attacks of opportunity made against her this turn equal to her intelligence modifier.

Press the Advantage: A Dragon Scholar knows that the fire is relentless, always attacking and reaching out at its opponents, so too does the Dragon Scholar. A Dragon Scholar may forgo a move action to follow an opponent on the opponent's next turn. The Dragon Scholar cannot move farther than she could during the move action she gave up. While using this ability, the Dragon Scholar may spend 1 Ki point for every five feet moved to make an attack of opportunity. These attacks do not count against the normal number of attacks of opportunity the Dragon Scholar can make.

Cunning Dodge: A Dragon Scholar studies his opponent hard while engaging him, and uses this knowledge to predict every blow. A Dragon Scholar may spend 1 Ki point to gain a bonus equal to his intelligence modifier against a single opponent for 24 hours. A Dragon Scholar may use this ability as a swift action against the first target and as a move action against every target thereafter for the encounter. A Dragon Scholar may only target a number of opponents equal to one fourth his class level rounded down.

Tactical Reflexes: A Dragon Scholar may add her intelligence modifier to her dexterity modifier when determining the number of attacks of opportunity she can make in a turn according to the Combat Reflexes feat.

Relentless Flame: A Dragon Scholar increases her maneuverability to stay with quick foes, wearing them down and outlasting them just like a great fire. When using the Press the Advantage ability, the Dragon Scholar may move up to twice the movement she could have made in the move action she gave up. Additionally, if the opponent does not move more than five feet during her turn, the Dragon Scholar may spend 1 Ki point to make a free attack of opportunity against that opponent.

Searing Blade: A Dragon Scholar learns who to add the most power to her thrusts and cuts, dealing more damage then normal. A Dragon Scholar may add one and a half her strength modifier when wielding a class weapon in one hand or twice her strength modifier when wielding a non-light weapon in two hands.

Master of the Dragon's Flame: A Dragon Scholar who has mastered her style is a paragon of precise and hard-hitting attacks as well as cunning tactics. A Dragon Scholar learns the final technique of harnessing the great strength of the Dragon as well as its precise aim with its fiery breath to make deadly attacks. A Dragon Scholar may make any one attack that hits a critical hit as if she had rolled a natural 20. If the critical hit is confirmed, resolve the critical hit as normal except increase the multiplier by one step (i.e. a x2 would become a x3). Alternately, the Dragon Scholar can choose to deal 60 damage instead of all the damage that would normally be multiplied (for example, an attack that normally deals 2d10+6 str +3 int +5d6 precise strike would deal 60+5d6 damage). A Dragon Scholar must spend 2 Ki points to use this ability.

Ceiling009
2007-10-28, 12:54 AM
I have a question of the ki pool, is it refreshed after every encounter? or is the maneuvers? I'd really hope it's the ki pool.

Attilargh
2007-10-28, 03:25 AM
And Attilargh, personally, I think we need 4 specific classes, though they can be very close.
And, obviously, I don't. I don't personally think there need to be nation-specific martial arts on top of the element-specific bending arts, so I'm doing something different. Not saying you're wrong, mind, I'm just presenting a different point of view.

Anyway, critique:

I don't personally like Flurry of Blows very much. As it stands, the Air Nomad is a really mobile class that... Has to stand still to execute its main combat maneuver. [reads the ability again] Wait. That's not Flurry of Blows (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#flurryofBlows). That actually looks pretty decent.

Swift Step. Kinda cool, but I don't think it works very well as an immediate action. When fighting a single opponent, you could negate every charge and every full attack the opponent throws at you just by saying "I take a step back" just as they're beginning to attack. Swoosh, our of reach. Sorry mr. Fighter, better luck next turn.

Improved Flurry of Blows: It's "respectively", unless you meant that you have to be really polite when making the attacks. :smallwink:

Vadin
2007-10-28, 09:00 AM
Instead of 4 different nation-specific martial artist classes or one generic martial artist, why not have a martial artist with many choices for abilities so the player can, in effect, create their own style of fighting without having to adhere to 'all martial artist act like this' and 'fire nation martial artists can only do this'. As we've seen with Sokka, the masters of these techniques seem to be quite above the war that divides the nations and are apparently willing to educate those their respective states would call enemies, meaning that a region-specific practice need not really only be available to people from that region.

AmberVael
2007-10-28, 09:06 AM
Actually, if you look through the wiki on the bending classes and their respective martial arts styles, you can see that different benders (even among the same nation) can have different martial arts styles that their skills are based on. (Toph being the primary example of this.)
However, for the most part the benders share a martial arts style.
You can find the styles that represent each element here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar:_The_Last_Airbender#Fighting_styles)

Ceiling009
2007-10-28, 01:52 PM
The reason I proposed something like nation specific martial arts, is that while Fighters can easily be part of Avatar, fighting and the martial arts are something quite refined in Avatar. In fact the benders or the "casters" as it were are about as tough as monks, not wizards; practicing specific styles which all boil down to prominent Chinese styles. I would suppose that each nation has it's own fighting style, different enough from each other that you can't really just chunk it into something like fighter, after all, since technically benders are just as able to punch you in the gut too. I would probably like to have styles based of nation philosophies, while all retaining it all in one class. Oh yeah, I'd like a capstone ability for the Air Martial Artist.

ErrantX
2007-10-28, 06:50 PM
Okay... so I'm sufficiently humbled. I'm inclined to say that separate martial arts paths are not such a bad idea after all. My only real complaint is: no level 20 ability for Air Martial Artist. A capstone ability, I personally feel anyway, is necessary.

-X

Lord Tataraus
2007-10-28, 06:58 PM
Okay... so I'm sufficiently humbled. I'm inclined to say that separate martial arts paths are not such a bad idea after all. My only real complaint is: no level 20 ability for Air Martial Artist. A capstone ability, I personally feel anyway, is necessary.

-X

Yes it is and I want to get a capstone ability soon. Unfortunately, I have fully decided on it yet. Also, I'm thinking of renaming the martial artist classes to be less nation specific, but still hold to their element. I think each style can be found in each nation, but maybe less so than the "correct" style. I don't know how to reflect that exactly, but the Air, Water, Fire, and Earth tags seem to prevent others from taking them. I do want to say that I did consider having one class, but then decided it would seem too thrown together and each style would not be unique enough, just like how you can't have one bending class and each element be a style of it.

Edit: Forgot the Ki pool question so...the pool is refreshed after each encounter, the technique can be used any number of times as long as you have the points to spend. As for the power of Swift Step, it does negate a lot of attacks, but would it be useless if it provoked AoOs?

Orzel
2007-10-28, 07:10 PM
If I were to make martial arts based on the Avatar, I'd make 3 completely different classes based on the 4 martial arts used and the style of the 4 nations.

Fire would be similar to a scout or rogue with lots of bonus damage and Flurry of blows. Avatar's Fire is fast and almost completely aggressive.

Air would be similar to a barbarian with reverse rage (+CON and DEX, -AB). His defense would raise and offense would be narrowed to mainly disarms, trips, and bull rushes. Avatar's Air is unpredictable and almost completely defensive.

Water would be similar to something?? A duelist with some riposte ability.

Earth would resemble a dwarven defender with smite anything. Avatar's earth is rigid and strong on offense and defense

Ceiling009
2007-10-29, 03:04 AM
It's kinda interesting, the Benders don't really get wisdom AC bonuses, but then again most of them tend to be ranged, while these guys should probably less glass jaws, and more like ceramic... What are these guys (at least the one) proficiencies with weapons and armor?

Lord Tataraus
2007-10-29, 08:03 AM
It's kinda interesting, the Benders don't really get wisdom AC bonuses, but then again most of them tend to be ranged, while these guys should probably less glass jaws, and more like ceramic... What are these guys (at least the one) proficiencies with weapons and armor?

I knew I forgot something, I've put the proficiencies in as well as the Weapon Strike ability (though I need a better name for it). And I've made the Swift Step provoke AoOs, but you could use it to move forward to make an AoO yourself!

Lord Tataraus
2007-10-29, 05:14 PM
I've been mauling over the capstone ability for the Air Martial Artist for awhile now, but finally decided to post it. I'll post it here as well:

Master of the Breeze: An Air Martial Artist who has mastered her style is a paragon of dexterous and flowing attacks and dodges. An Air Martial Artist may make all attacks with class weapons and unarmed strikes as touch attacks this turn. An Air Martial Artist must spend 2 Ki points to use this ability.

It seems a to be quite powerful and is not defensive at all. I might increase the Ki cost. I'll estimate that a 20th level Air Martial Artist has ~31 Ki points in her pool (16 Wisdom base, +6 item, +5 tome, +3 from level up = 32, +11 modifier), though that is a bit generous. So, at maximum you can use this ability only 7 times, but no other abilities, though. Also, I've changed the Unarmed Strike damage progression a bit to be a little less offensive.

Ceiling009
2007-10-29, 06:18 PM
I think you should reduce it down to 3 ki points. It's a powerful ability, but these characters would be more offensive over all. I would even further venture to say, that it should be reduced to 2. In the setting with the benders, there are no magic items, and I would imagine tomes to be scarce. So now they're left with something like a 22 more or less Wisdom, a +6 mod to their 20 from the class. Actually using your base number, it would be 20, so a +5... make them a force to be reckoned with; cause all in all they're still suffering from MAD.

Lord Tataraus
2007-10-29, 06:31 PM
I think you should reduce it down to 3 ki points. It's a powerful ability, but these characters would be more offensive over all. I would even further venture to say, that it should be reduced to 2. In the setting with the benders, there are no magic items, and I would imagine tomes to be scarce. So now they're left with something like a 22 more or less Wisdom, a +6 mod to their 20 from the class. Actually using your base number, it would be 20, so a +5... make them a force to be reckoned with; cause all in all they're still suffering from MAD.

Hm, good point. I've lowered it to 2 Ki points.

Ceiling009
2007-10-29, 06:46 PM
Oh yeah, hey remember disrupt bending? Since this is more less taking the place of both the monk somewhat of the fighter, did you possibly want a feat chain and progression for stunning fist, disrupt bending, and maybe even a kicked up quivering palm?

Lord Tataraus
2007-10-29, 06:56 PM
Oh yeah, hey remember disrupt bending? Since this is more less taking the place of both the monk somewhat of the fighter, did you possibly want a feat chain and progression for stunning fist, disrupt bending, and maybe even a kicked up quivering palm?

I was thinking of a feat chain for disrupt bending, going off of stunning fist. However, I'm mostly caught up with this project, so if you want to work on that go ahead. Also, look for the Fire Martial Artist, I hope to get that up soon. I haven't decided how exactly to make the Water Martial Artist and the Earth one can wait. This of course, does not mean that the Air Martial Artist is finished at all.

Edit: The Fire Martial Artist is up. I am thinking of granting Fire Forms a little more often, what do you think?

Ceiling009
2007-10-30, 02:09 AM
As it stands, I think Stunning Fist should be reworked to have uses of 1 per monk level or 1 per 4 levels of fighter it should work off of Ki Pool...

Kinda like:
"You may attempt a stunning attack once a day per 4 levels you have attained, or alternatively you may expend 1 Ki points per attempt."

It makes it that if a pure fighter, which is not to be ruled out, took stunning fist, it would still work, but these martial artists can definitely use them more than 5 times a day.

Which then basically follows to Disrupt Bending, its simple and quick solution.

The only other problem would be the requirements to get it... while a fighter will have enough feats to get it at level 8, Disrupt Bending is only feasible with a standard monk setup... I also think that Stunning Fist should be allowed to be granted to the Martial Artist without needing to fulfill it's prereqs... as a bonus feat at either 2 or 3rd level... I'm sort of weary about it, as it's sort of front loading current class... though actually I could easily see this be part of the Fire Martial Artist class...

ErrantX
2007-10-30, 12:05 PM
I really like these write-ups and as I said before, I am definitely in my "I was wrong" place. Great job here, your unarmed damage progressions and defense bonuses are decent (I'm assuming you're bundling in the class defense bonus with these?) Lord Tataraus. Here are my reviews and critiques, starting with Air Style.

Sway in the Wind is too strong. If you have a 16 Wisdom, you could spend 3 Ki to gain +12 AC? That's craziness. I'd say either drop that bonus to +2 or 1 Ki point to double your Wisdom-to-AC bonus. Also, I'd suggest that it only work when the Air Martial Artist uses partial or full defense actions.

Master of the Breeze would work better in my mind if you spent 1 Ki to resolve each individual attack as a touch attack as opposed to 2 Ki for all the attacks. But good idea overall for the capstone.

One nit-pick and several critiques I have on Fire Style:


Weapon Strike: A Fire Martial Artist can deal damage with a class weapon she equal to her unarmed strike damage. An Air Martial Artist must expend 1 Ki point to use this ability and it lasts for a number of rounds equal to her intelligence modifier.

Precise Strike should mention that it can only be used in a single standard attack action and not on a full attack action.

The Fire Form Lunging Sparks is just too complicated. It has if/then statements in it. Not sure what to do to fix it.

Insightful Strike applies to weapon damage or on the to-hit roll? Or both? It looks like to-hit rolls, you may want to reword it.

Cunning Dodge is neat, worthwhile if you're hunting down a fleeing target.

Tactical reflexes is also very neat, I like it!

Make a note in Master the Dragon's Flame that it cannot be combined with White Fire Strike, I think that would be too broken. Also, make note that in Master the Dragon's Flame that a successful attack roll must be made to consider the damage as a critical hit. Otherwise, you're getting free, no roll necessary critical hit.

Also, Searing Blade is just too strong. Just too strong, x4 is way too strong. I'd suggest making it when wielded in one hand, he may add x1.5 Strength modifier and two-handed x2. Also make any of the weapon-compatible abilities work on Fire Style weapons only. It's not specifically mentioned in most of them, and I feel that it should be.

My comments on Earth Style, of which I have a few:

I think that monk-like AC bonus should never derive from Constitution unless it's like a natural armor bonus, because Con is already an amazingly good stat to have high anyway (especially with that d12 hit die!). I understand why you wrote it that way, but any smart player is going to abuse the heck out of it. I'd suggest Wisdom for all of them, or Wisdom for Water and Earth and Int for Fire and Air for monk-like AC bonus.

Also, I would change Solid Stance to require Ki expenditure and have it more like a dwarven defender's defensive stance. You spend Ki, plant your feet and you cannot move while it is in effect. This ability is very strong, I can't however think of anything to make it more reasonable in my mind without nerfing it completely. I may have to ponder on this. Maybe only one attack per round can be augmented with this ability?

Crushing Blow should change to either Wisdom or double Strength mod as using Constitution seems too focused. It makes it so that you only need one stat to be good and that's never a good thing for game balance.

The DR is too high, simply put. Way too high. Barbarians only get 5/- by level 20. Use a progression more like that, advance it at 1/- at each of those level spots and just make effective at all times to balance out that you're no longer spending Ki.

Reach of the Mountain is a little far fetched, in striking 15ft out. I'm trying to imagine that. I'd suggest just keeping it 10ft reach and call it a day.

Master of the Mountain is just... whoah. Too much. Way too much. Drop the bonuses to +6 Str/Con and the player does not move at all. Give him a natural armor bonus equal to his new modified Con score (as his durability makes him harder to injure) and give him an additional +4 to resist being bull rushed or tripped. Duration is fine, as is cost. Just a little too good, even for a level 20 ability. Even my fix I think might be a little strong.

Otherwise, great stuff man (he says after he picks it all apart). Keep it up, how goes Water Style Martial Arts?

-X

Ceiling009
2007-10-30, 01:03 PM
Seriously, these are beautiful classes so far; I especially like the Fire Martial Artist quite a lot. I can definitely tell that the earth one needs some power adjustment, If they get con to AC, it should be natural armor, cause then you could justify the DR they're getting.. though upwards of 20 to 40 DR is a bit much. I could see Body of Rock doing something like DR 1/- + Con Mod, then progressing to DR 5/- + Con Mod; then the capstone doubling that. Since there isn't really a build up to adding str and con... I would probably say that in Master of the Mountain Stance, all attacks while in stance would be solid strikes. Note also that I think solid strike should use ki points as well. and while in capstone all strikes, are solid strikes and do not require ki points.

Darkbane
2007-10-30, 01:31 PM
Critiques @ Lord Tataraus: Earth Martial Artist's DR is way too strong; Avatar doesn't have casters or magic items so damage output is dropped significantly, and the only thing we've seen that could count as adamantine is Sokka's meteor sword. DR needs a rework in Avatar.
Fire Martial Artist's Master of the Dragon's Flame is worded kind of strangely, and it also seems too powerful. Again, no magic+no casters=lower damage output; 80 points seems high.
Air Martial Artist's Sway in the Wind is crazy broken. +4, +8, or +12 to AC for only one Ki point means never getting hit at higher levels, and avoiding most hits at lower levels. Since scout is allowed, Swift Step+Skirmish=free damage and even higher AC.

Oh, one thing to Attilargh: This looks like another interesting option for Avatar Marital Artists. I'd drop the part about using unarmed damage giving your weapon the same critical/threat range as unarmed strike. Otherwise the only reason to ever use a weapon is to pierce DR, and no one is going to make a weapon focused martial artist.

Lord Tataraus
2007-10-30, 03:36 PM
Thanks for all the replies :smallbiggrin:
While in class today, I was malling over the Earth Martial Artist and determined that I needed to nerf it a lot. A Constitution-based class with d12 hit dice as well as high damage is just too much. So, I'm going to drop DR a lot, completely remove all con-based abilities, replacing them with wis. I really wanted a mechanic like Solid Stance is, but it seemed to strong. I considered making it a apply to only one attack, halving the progression, and/or requiring Ki. I've decided to keep the progression as it is, but lessen its use by requiring Ki and only applying to one attack per round. (I'm right with you X).

You will notice that I have updated Air and Fire Martial Artists with your suggestions. As for White Flame Strike + Master of the Dragon's Flame synergy, I kind of put that in there on purpose, though I am considering increasing Master of the Dragon's Flame to 3 Ki cost for that reason.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-10-30, 06:00 PM
Hm. Interesting concepts here, Tataraus, and completely unlike anything I was going to do, though that isn't necessarily a bad thing. The one thing that really does bother me is the presence of a ki pool. There's been nothing in the show to suggest that martial artists (or just Ty Lee, really, since she's the only unarmed fighter I've noticed in the show) actively channel ki into their abilities, or that they're ever in any danger of running dry. In any case, Weapon Strike and Flurry of Blows should not take up ki points if you choose to keep the mechanic.

As for the arts themselves: I'm not entirely sure from where you drew the flavor of the fire martial art. Intelligence, forethought, and precision play second fiddle to quantity of attacks, damage, done by attacks, and quick reaction time. Extra damage as a class ability? Great. Precision damage? Not so much. I would say that it definitely requires Flurry of Blows (maybe even the PHB version, though I like yours, too). The use of Intelligence as the primary ability for the fire martial art seems very odd to me, too. Any reason that it shouldn't be Wisdom like everyone else?

It might be a good idea to give the earth martial artist Decisive Strike (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2276450#post2276450), from Iames' monk redux. It seems to fit their "Strength over speed" style, and gives them a nice unarmed trick that doesn't involve Flurry of Blows.

To be perfectly honest, I'm not really comfortable with making martial arts based on each of the elements, as it makes too much dependent on a character's place of birth. I'm all for making an offensive (fire), defensive (water), light (air), and heavy (earth) martial art; but then there's also sneaky, support, passive, motion-based, quantity-of-attacks-based, one-hit-one-kill arts, and all other types. By looking at Ty Lee, at least, we see that martial arts in the avatar world aren't completely dependent on their nation of origin. I think it would be better if we incorporate the three martial arts you've built so far into a single class, and make the different arts into styles within the class. Class abilities can stay as they are, and you can even keep the styles as they are right now; but making a single class allows for us to add additional and custom styles without needing to homebrew a whole new class. Thoughts?

Lord Tataraus
2007-10-30, 06:29 PM
Hm. Interesting concepts here, Tataraus, and completely unlike anything I was going to do, though that isn't necessarily a bad thing. The one thing that really does bother me is the presence of a ki pool. There's been nothing in the show to suggest that martial artists (or just Ty Lee, really, since she's the only unarmed fighter I've noticed in the show) actively channel ki into their abilities, or that they're ever in any danger of running dry. In any case, Weapon Strike and Flurry of Blows should not take up ki points if you choose to keep the mechanic.

Fair enough. My reasoning for the Ki pool is simple, it is purely to be used as a limiting mechanic for the otherwise extremely powerful abilities and strategic planning. Of course other abilities enhance a Martial Artist's combat ability, so running out of Ki doesn't mean much, but it should last for a good portion of the combat.


As for the arts themselves: I'm not entirely sure from where you drew the flavor of the fire martial art. Intelligence, forethought, and precision play second fiddle to quantity of attacks, damage, done by attacks, and quick reaction time. Extra damage as a class ability? Great. Precision damage? Not so much. I would say that it definitely requires Flurry of Blows (maybe even the PHB version, though I like yours, too). The use of Intelligence as the primary ability for the fire martial art seems very odd to me, too. Any reason that it shouldn't be Wisdom like everyone else?

Purely because of my knowledge of Chinese philosophy (not immense, but substantial) and based completely off of the episode Sokka's Master. A warrior such as Sokka's master (I forget his name) is a scholar. A scholar in Chinese society is a paragon of of perfection; highly philosophical, precise, trained extensively in the arts of calligraphy which is in turn the art of landscape painting and poetry. Through out the entire episode, the master constantly talked about tactics and in the end mentioned that skill was not everything. Most of the Fire Forms and other abilities come directly from that episode (which a watched over and over again for this class). I noticed that that each movement, each thrust, was calculated and executed with precision. Thus, the Fire Martial Artist is the tactician.


It might be a good idea to give the earth martial artist Decisive Strike (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2276450#post2276450), from Iames' monk redux. It seems to fit their "Strength over speed" style, and gives them a nice unarmed trick that doesn't involve Flurry of Blows.

Hm, interesting. I will consider it, but it might be a little too powerful when combine with his other abilities.


To be perfectly honest, I'm not really comfortable with making martial arts based on each of the elements, as it makes too much dependent on a character's place of birth. I'm all for making an offensive (fire), defensive (water), light (air), and heavy (earth) martial art; but then there's also sneaky, support, passive, motion-based, quantity-of-attacks-based, one-hit-one-kill arts, and all other types. By looking at Ty Lee, at least, we see that martial arts in the avatar world aren't completely dependent on their nation of origin. I think it would be better if we incorporate the three martial arts you've built so far into a single class, and make the different arts into styles within the class. Class abilities can stay as they are, and you can even keep the styles as they are right now; but making a single class allows for us to add additional and custom styles without needing to homebrew a whole new class. Thoughts?

To be honest, I don't like linking the Martial Artists to the elementals either. At first I was fine with it, but as they developed I am becoming more and more uneasy about it. I see the Kyoshi Warriors as Air Martial Artists and like Sokka's master said, "the way of the sword belongs to no nation." However, I really like the elemental basis and reasoning for each class; its the how "can't live with it, can't live without it". As for the single class idea, the classes are each so different that it just wouldn't work. I did consider it at first, but it would turn out to be three or four different classes stuck to a common template.

I hope that sufficiently addresses your comments and questions.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-10-30, 06:57 PM
Well an option here is to make the four elemental martial art styles (if you decide that you like my single-class idea), and essentially make them the bending styles minus the bending; so it would really be the martial arts that the bending represents. Then you could add Sokka's master's analytical fighting style in there, along with Ty Lee's chi blockage techniques as a separate style, and all sorts of other goodies. But I definitely hold that a single-class mechanic is the way to go here; and it really wouldn't require too much adaptation of your current mechanic, should you choose to go for it.

(EDIT)
As for the single class idea, the classes are each so different that it just wouldn't work. I did consider it at first, but it would turn out to be three or four different classes stuck to a common template. I see where you're going here, and I agree that it would be quite obvious that the class itself is little more than a skeleton, while the styles would control almost everything in my preferred system. I don't see this as a problem, since Martial Artist is an astoundingly vague term; and huge variation is to be expected. It's a great deal simpler than making an individual class for each one is all I'm saying. If you want, I could transfer the martial arts you've presented so far into the format I have visualized, so you can see what I'm thinking; or you can just flat-out say 'no' and I'll back down and help you finish your project as is.

And now I'm going to stop pushing my agenda and allow you to continue building the monk as you think it best.

Lord Tataraus
2007-10-30, 07:39 PM
I like to keep an open mind, so I don't want to say no definitively. Could you PM me your format? I'll continue this project since I'm pretty deep into it, but I'd like to see what your thinking.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, so I've decided to tackle the stunning fist and disrupt bending, so here it goes:

Stunning Strike
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +3, Improved Unarmed Strike
Benefit: You must declare that you are using this feat before you make your attack roll (thus, a failed attack roll ruins the attempt). Stunning Strike forces a foe damaged by your attack to make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + ˝ your character level + your Wis modifier), in addition to dealing damage normally. A defender who fails this saving throw is stunned for 1 round (until just before your next action). A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a -2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC. You may attempt a stunning attack once per encounter for every four levels you have attained. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be stunned.
Special: Stunning Strike may be used in place of Stunning Fist for qualifying for any feat, prestige class, or class ability. A Fire Martial Artist may use her intelligence modifier instead of her wisdom modifier for determining the save DC. Additionally, a Dragon Scholar may use her intelligence modifier instead of her wisdom modifier for any feat or ability that has Stunning Fist or Stunning Strike as a prerequisite.

Improved Stunning Strike
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6, Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Strike class feature, Ki pool, Stunning Strike
Benefit: If a creature fails his saving throw to resist being stunned by your Stunning Strike, you may spend 1 Ki point to stun him for 2 rounds.

Greater Stunning Strike
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +10, Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Strike class feature, Ki pool, Stunning Strike, Improved Stunning Strike
Benefit: If a creature fails his saving throw to resist being stunned by your Stunning Strike, you may spend 2 Ki points to stun him for 1d4+1 rounds.

Extra Stunning
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +4, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Strike
Benefit: You gain 2 more uses of Stunning Strike per encounter.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times.

Disrupt Chi
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6, Stunning Strike
Benefit: By learning where to strike your opponent, you can disable most attacks he could normally use against you. When you use a Stunning Strike with an unarmed strike, you may forgo both the damage and stun to disrupt certain abilities. The target must make the normal fortitude save, but failure results in Chi Disruption. Chi Disruption gives a -10 penalty to all bending checks and remove 3 Ki points from the target's Ki pool. This effect lasts for 1d4 rounds, after which the removed Ki is regained.
Special: The effects of this ability stack with each use, though the durations may differ.

Greater Disrupt Chi
Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +12, Stunning Strike, Disrupt Chi
Benefit: When using you Disrupt Chi ability, you may choose to expend three uses of Stunning Strike instead of one to increase the duration to 1 hour. However, for every round past the first, the target may make a fortitude save to throw off the effect. On a successful save, the target is cured of the Chi Disruption condition at the beginning of his next turn.

So, what do you think? Too powerful? Underpowered?

Darkbane
2007-10-30, 09:28 PM
Question: does Improved Stunning Strike add 1d4 rounds of stun for 1d4+1 total, or just change the duration to 1d4 rounds?

Greater Stunning Strike and Greater Disrupt Chi seem too powerful; 1d4 minutes of no attacking/no bending is too much of a handicap.

All in all, though, these seem like a good replacement for Stunning Fist. I assume these feats replace Stunning Fist, allowing you to stun with weapons and moving away from the MAD requirements of Stunning Fist.

Lord Tataraus
2007-10-30, 09:37 PM
Question: does Improved Stunning Strike add 1d4 rounds of stun for 1d4+1 total, or just change the duration to 1d4 rounds?

Greater Stunning Strike and Greater Disrupt Chi seem too powerful; 1d4 minutes of no attacking/no bending is too much of a handicap.

All in all, though, these seem like a good replacement for Stunning Fist. I assume these feats replace Stunning Fist, allowing you to stun with weapons and moving away from the MAD requirements of Stunning Fist.

As written, Improved Stunning Strike changes the duration to 1d4 rounds, though being stunned is an extreme handicap, I'll lessen the duration to 2 rounds for improved and 1d4 rounds for greater. As for the duration for Greater Disrupt Chi, I am basing the time off of Ty Lee's Chi block ability which actually seems to last for an hour or so. Maybe I should allow for the victim to make regular fortitude saves to throw off the effect and give no duration?

Ceiling009
2007-10-30, 10:33 PM
I'm pretty happy with what you've done...except for Extra Stunning, I think the actual one in Complete Warrior gives you additional 3 uses... I still sort of want it based off of Ki Points... to give additional uses... after all at level 9, you have 2 uses. At 12, 3 uses, maye four if you took the feat... It's just a personal bias really.

Lord Tataraus
2007-10-30, 10:46 PM
I'm pretty happy with what you've done...except for Extra Stunning, I think the actual one in Complete Warrior gives you additional 3 uses... I still sort of want it based off of Ki Points... to give additional uses... after all at level 9, you have 2 uses. At 12, 3 uses, maye four if you took the feat... It's just a personal bias really.

Yes, but it is per encounter, not day. Though I guess I could bump up the uses gained through Extra stunning to 2 or so.

Ceiling009
2007-10-31, 12:03 AM
Oh, it's per encounter? I must have read that wrong, then I guess it's fine. Though 2 per feat slot is much better than 1. After all it's a feat slot; which could be filled with something like power attack.

Attilargh
2007-10-31, 06:45 AM
Oh, one thing to Attilargh: This looks like another interesting option for Avatar Marital Artists. I'd drop the part about using unarmed damage giving your weapon the same critical/threat range as unarmed strike. Otherwise the only reason to ever use a weapon is to pierce DR, and no one is going to make a weapon focused martial artist.
Yay, someone's paying attention to me! :smallbiggrin: I was afraid no-one liked the class, and that always hurts my inspiration.

When I wrote the ability, I kept thinking how grabbing a scythe or a scimitar could make combats really messy, really fast. However, I do see your point and considering how there are extremely few magical items in the world and special materials are scarce, I could remove that clause.

I guess I'll get to writing some fighting styles, starting with One Weapon. (Needs a fancier name. Might go with "Snake Style", as I'm going to give it a Sneak Attack progression and Feint abilities.)

Mephibosheth
2007-10-31, 10:22 AM
I'm with Eighth_Seraph on these classes. I think we need a basic skeleton class that incorporates a number of different styles of fighting which determine most of the class abilities. I also support disassociating martial arts and the elements, at least explicitly. I think the philosophies behind the different martial arts are interesting and valuable, but they shouldn't be linked to the elements.

Ultimately, I think that the simple solution is the best solution in this case. We only have one unarmed fighter in the show, and only a few other characters who could use this class while wielding weapons. It's something we need to include to keep this option open to players, but should not be hugely elaborate, imho.

I think Stunning Strike and its brothers are interesting, but I don't know how I feel about tying the higher-end abilities to ki points. I also think that the penalty to bending checks for Disrupt Chi should be smaller, but that multiple uses of the ability should stack. Ty Lee uses a flurry of quick strikes to disable the Earthbenders in The Drill, not one powerful strike. Otherwise, looks good!

Ceiling009
2007-10-31, 11:27 AM
Even though, I thought at first one class would be better, one that could encompass all these styles, I actually prefer the 4 variants. They're different enough that they warrant their classes, it's sort of like trying to make all the benders into one class and letting thier style choices affect what they do and what they bend... The only thing I dislike is that it's much harder to get stunning fist, but then again, with the other class abilities, its sort of moot.

Lord Tataraus
2007-10-31, 12:06 PM
I'm with Eighth_Seraph on these classes. I think we need a basic skeleton class that incorporates a number of different styles of fighting which determine most of the class abilities. I also support disassociating martial arts and the elements, at least explicitly. I think the philosophies behind the different martial arts are interesting and valuable, but they shouldn't be linked to the elements.

The way I see it is that each element directly represents a philosophy in the avatar world. The Fire nation is big on learning and knowledge as well as expansion. All these qualities are represented by fire. The Air Nomads are creative and open-minded pacifists, preferring to focus on defense and avoiding conflict unless completely necessary. These qualities are represented by air or wind. Because of the existence of elemental bending, these representations are completely real, thus a tactician would study fire because the society sees fire as the embodiment of knowledge and expansion, even outside the Fire Nation. Likewise, one how would want to focus more on maneuverability and defense would seek to learn the ways of the wind and air, since that is exactly what the Airbenders teach and learn. So, while I don't think the styles should be linked to one of the nations, they should be linked to the elements.


Ultimately, I think that the simple solution is the best solution in this case. We only have one unarmed fighter in the show, and only a few other characters who could use this class while wielding weapons. It's something we need to include to keep this option open to players, but should not be hugely elaborate, imho.

True, but most of the existing melee classes just don't cut it and I'd like to allow just as many options for meleers as benders.


I think Stunning Strike and its brothers are interesting, but I don't know how I feel about tying the higher-end abilities to ki points. I also think that the penalty to bending checks for Disrupt Chi should be smaller, but that multiple uses of the ability should stack. Ty Lee uses a flurry of quick strikes to disable the Earthbenders in The Drill, not one powerful strike. Otherwise, looks good!

Hm, good point on the Disrupt Chi, I'll lower the penalty and allow multiple uses to stack.

Vadin
2007-10-31, 02:17 PM
We already have bending as primarily skill-based, right? So why not apply that to the martial artist as well. Give them some options in basic class abilities (like Flurry of Blows or Precise Attack, an Improved Power Attack or Improved Combat Expertise), and then allow them and their full BAB access to some Battle Seeds. Similar in many respects to Tome of Battle, the Battle Seeds could be divided up into 5 schools (Fire Nation, Water Tribe, Earth Kingdom, Air Nomads, and Universal), giving beginning martial artists access to their home nation's group of Battle Seeds and the Universal Battle Seeds. As levels progressed, they could a) gain access to new schools through the class or b) have to use a feat to gain access to new seeds. Instead of Bending, these classes could use another skill to roll for their checks for maneuvers, which would then be resolved like normal attacks. In this manner, the Kyoshi Warriors' disarmings and Ty Lee's bending disruptings could be be seeds. I see seeds in this setup as something more akin to 'Attack Templates' than many of the bending seeds.

Just my 2 cents, rooting once more for a single martial artist class instead of different classes for each nation.

Mephibosheth
2007-10-31, 02:24 PM
I get the linkages between the elements and different philosophical emphases, I guess my comment is that I don't like the explicit link between the martial art and the element. I think we should leave room for members of each nation learning all forms of martial arts, even if the philosophy behind that martial art runs counter to the general worldview espoused by their nation.

I think that it's difficult (if not impossible) to separate the nations and the elements in the Avatar world. The linkages between the two are articulated almost everywhere, even in the colors members of those nations choose to wear.

I know we want to give as many options as possible (within the confines of the setting) to the players, but I wonder to what extent the setting supports a wide variety of options for non-bending combatants. Of the characters in the show, only Sokka, Ty Lee, Mai, Hakoda, Sokka's master, and a few other characters are able to hold their own against benders. Meanwhile, there are entire armies composed almost entirely of benders. Plus you have the Air Nomads, who seem to be almost 100% benders (at least, we've never seen a non-bending Air Nomad). I know this seems harsh, but maybe it's OK that there are fewer options for non-benders. Note that I'm not necessarily arguing that this should be the case, just that we should discuss it as a possibility.

Finally, I don't quite understand why classes like Rogue, Fighter, and Barbarian don't fit within the setting. It seems to me like there could easily be a place for them.

Lord Tataraus
2007-10-31, 03:23 PM
Well, I changed the names of the Martial Artists to be less binding to a certain nation. I hope to get the Water Martial Artist up by the end of the week.

As for Rogue, Fighter and Barbarian fitting in the Avatar world. First off, I am biased against the fighter and replace it with Warblade in all my games, so I ignore it anyway. Barbarians I don't see as too common, but definitely exist (I would say there were some in that one episode in the canyon in Book 2). Rogues also definitely exist, but the specialized warriors would not be any of those. Also remember that the soldiers in the armies are not examples of PCs, Ty Lee, Mai, Sokka's master, etc. are examples of PCs.

As for skill-based melee classes, it's taking a preexisting mechanic and changing it, not adding a new mechanic. The bender's still use D20 attack system, so the meleers should as well. Changing attacking to a skill-based system is just too much.

Vadin
2007-10-31, 03:39 PM
I'm not suggesting at all that attacking be changed to a skill-based mechanic. I'm simply suggesting that a system similar to bending developed for melee (and possible ranged) attacks would be useful. For example, Ty Lee want to make a disrupt bending attack. Before attacking, she rolls against the Disrupt Bending seed DC (say, 20). She rolls a 4,adds her 10 ranks in Combat Skill (or whatever it would be called), and her WIS modifier for a total of 18. Not quite enough to make her attack a disrupt bending attack, but still enough for a normal attack (a penalty where they provoke an AoO if they fail the check by more than, say, 5). However, the distrupt bending attack reduces damage to 0 unless a critical hit is rolled (this would be the Penalty part of the Battle Seed, as some of these sorts of things really need a balancing factor besides just DC. The penalty, I'm thinkin, would apply even if your attempt failed). She only gets a 12 on her attack roll, but fails to actually damage or disable her opponent. I'm thinking that this would have been a full round action, so now her turn is over. Templates could be applied to these seeds as well. For example, a martial artist could apply Flurry to a special attack, granting him an extra attack at the same BAB as his first attack, but with a -2 penalty to both attacks.

Lord Tataraus
2007-10-31, 03:44 PM
I don't know, it seems too complicated. I'm just augmenting existing rules instead of making new ones. I've already got pretty far with my format right now, so I'll stick with it for now.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-10-31, 03:49 PM
Please don't do that to the bending classes. Taking the mechanic and giving it to the martial artist, I mean. I'm glad that you liked the system and want to expand on it; but I would prefer it if the skill-based system stayed specifically with the bending classes. Let the monks be warriors like the other warriors throughout the world, not quasi-benders don't use the elements.

Kalessin
2007-10-31, 04:30 PM
Great work. Might be using some of them in future. But one question, mon ami, what is this defense bonus? Does it apply allways? What kind of bonus it is?

Lord Tataraus
2007-10-31, 04:38 PM
Great work. Might be using some of them in future. But one question, mon ami, what is this defense bonus? Does it apply allways? What kind of bonus it is?

It is the defense bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm) from UA. It is its own bonus that can be used instead of AC. What I do is make armor DR only and have AC purely based off the defense bonus. Of course if you use that you need to let the defense bonus apply to touch AC (it normally does not).

Ceiling009
2007-10-31, 05:57 PM
With as specific skill that would allow skill checks for special attacks, you could really chunk together the classes into one complex and intriguing thing. I really like the idea, cause to me, special maneuvers, which a lot of these class abilities pretty much emulate. But right now, I think it's better to work in the current construct; though... I really like the way it works. Granted no one really shows that in the show, but to me martial arts are represented badly in DnD anyway.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-10-31, 07:09 PM
Alright everyone, I've received OP permission to show the demo version of the single-class martial artist structure. The abilities, etc. are all taken directly from the currently existing martial arts classes. Here it is:


Overview

All martial arts classes share the same hit dice, skill points per level, base attack bonus, and base saves. They differ in their special abilities, unarmed damage bonus, and class defense bonuses. All monks gain Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, and bonus feat at first, second, and sixth level; though the feats themselves are determined by their fighting style.

A martial artist can "multiclass" with another fighting style, continuing in the basic monk BAB, saves, etc.; but gaining the benefits from the new style and not the old one.

Martial Artist
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref nSave|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+2|Improved Unarmed Strike, Bonus Feat

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+3|Bonus feat

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+3|

4th|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+4|

5th|
+5|
+4|
+4|
+4|

6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+5|
+5|Bonus Feat

7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+5|

8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+6|
+6|

9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+6|

10th|
+10/+5|
+7|
+7|
+7|

11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+7|
+7|

12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+8|
+8|

13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+8|
+8|

14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+9|
+9|

15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+9|
+9|

16th|
+16/11/+6/+1|
+10|
+10|
+10|

17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+10|
+10|

18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+11|
+11|

19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+11|
+11|

20th|
+20/+15/+9/+4|
+12|
+12|
+12|[/table]

And the styles would look something like this...


Wind Warrior
{table=head]Level|Special|Unarmed Damage|Defense Bonus

1st|
Flurry of Blows|
1d4 |
+4

2nd|
Acrobatics, Evasion|
1d4|
+4

3rd|
Fast Movement, Swift Step|
1d4|
+5

4th|
Uncanny Dodge, Weapon Strike|
1d6|
+5

5th|
Sway in the Wind (+2)|
1d6|
+5

6th|
Fury of the Wind|
1d6|
+6

7th|
Improved Flurry of Blows|
1d6|
+6

8th|
Improved Uncanny Dodge|
1d8|
+6

9th|
Fast Movement|
1d8|
+7

10th|
Lift of the Gale, Improved Evasion|
1d8|
+7

11th|
Improved Swift Step|
1d8|
+7

12th|
Sway in the Wind (+4)|
1d10|
+8

13th|
-|
1d10|
+8

14th|
Greater Flurry of Blows|
1d10|
+8

15th|
Fast Movement|
1d10|
+9

16th|
-|
2d6|
+9

17th|
Sway in the Wind (immediate action)|
2d6|
+9

18th|
Fast Movement|
2d6|
+10

19th|
Greater Swift Step|
2d6|
+10

20th|
Master of the Breeze, Sway in the Wind (+6)|
2d6|
+10[/table]


Mountain Warrior
{table=head]Level|Special|Unarmed Damage|Defense Bonus

1st|
Decisive Strike (if accepted)|
1d6|
+3

2nd|
Solid stance +1d4 |
1d6|
+3

3rd|
Crushing Blow |
1d6|
+4

4th|
Sold Stance +2d4|
1d8|
+4

5th|
Body of Rock (1/-)|
1d8|
+4

6th|
Solid Stance +3d4|
1d8|
+5

7th|
Reach of the Mountain|
1d10|
+5

8th|
Solid Stance +4d4|
1d10|
+5

9th|
Body of Rock (2/-)|
1d10|
+6

10th|
Solid Stance +5d4 |
2d6|
+6

11th|
Tremendous Blow|
2d6|
+6

12th|
Solid Stance +6d4|
2d6|
+7

13th|
Body of Rock (3/-)|
2d8|
+7

14th|
Solid Stance +7d4|
2d8|
+7

15th|
Improved Tremendous Blow|
2d8|
+8

16th|
Solid Stance +8d4|
2d10|
+8

17th|
Body of Rock (4/-)|
2d10|
+8

18th|
Solid Stance +9d4|
2d10|
+9

19th|
Body of Rock (5/-)|
2d10|
+9

20th|
Solid Stance +10d4, Master of the Mountain|
3d6|
+9[/table]

Which do you guys prefer: single-class martial artist with styles or individual classes for each art?

ErrantX
2007-10-31, 07:33 PM
Which do you guys prefer: single-class martial artist with styles or individual classes for each art?

I prefer a single class with styles as written here. I think between the two of you, you have come up with a good setup and system of abilities. A few questions I have about this:

Do they all have a standard HD, or do they use the listed ones from the individual classes from before? I would prefer that they all have the same HD, personally.

Also, they should have a core set of skills, and then each path has a set up of skills in addition to the base class dependent on style.

-X

Vadin
2007-10-31, 08:28 PM
Ce la vie, the ToB skill-based rewrite will have to wait...

On the topic of Avatar martial artist, though, are these martial artists solely unarmed, or does the term 'martial artist' apply to any specialized and well-trained fighter from the different nations? Also, single class MA all the way. It allows players to customize their martial artist a lot more, allowing for reflection of all sorts of different kinds of kung-fu, karate, and all that jazz.

Ceiling009
2007-11-01, 12:11 AM
I think it's going to get complicated. With that set up, are you forced to follow style? can you mix up style? How do you adjudicate when you get what style feature? and would style features be dependent on total class level; versus it's subset?

Eighth_Seraph
2007-11-01, 08:48 AM
As I mentioned in the overview, you can choose to "multistyle" within the class, but you'd start from the ground up in terms of special abilities. I'm not entirely sure how to handle unarmed strike damage in that case, but I'm sure that UA has its own system to handle multiclassing for the class defense bonus. HD is d8 for all styles un the system, and skills would probably be as the PHB monk with some bonus skills for specific styles; but that's up to Lord Tataraus. This is his project, and he has the last word.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-01, 09:50 AM
Ce la vie, the ToB skill-based rewrite will have to wait...

On the topic of Avatar martial artist, though, are these martial artists solely unarmed, or does the term 'martial artist' apply to any specialized and well-trained fighter from the different nations? Also, single class MA all the way. It allows players to customize their martial artist a lot more, allowing for reflection of all sorts of different kinds of kung-fu, karate, and all that jazz.

Martial airst refers to any well-trained fighter of the nations. That is why they all get weapon strike.

Since there is a definiate interest in making the classes a single class with different styles, that's what it will be. I'll edit the first post to include this setup and I might change a few things around, but it should stay mostly the same.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-01, 10:33 AM
Alright, with my mad editing skillz I have renovated the Martial Artist classes into a single class (go ahead and look it over). For convenience (because I like to be convenient) here is the style rules:

Styles: At each level of Martial Artist she may advance one level in any one of the styles (Wind Warrior, Mountain Protector, Dragon Scholar). For example, a Martial Artist may choose to advance the Wind Warrior style for her first three levels, getting those abilities, then decides to take two levels of Mountain Protector, gaining those abilities. A Martial Artist is free to switch between styles as much as she likes.

So, what do you think? And I'll have the water style soon (hopefully).

Ceiling009
2007-11-01, 11:40 AM
Whoa, Save progressions are way too strong... three good saves? Need to be lowered, at least one of them... Like Fort. Or start two of the saves with 1's instead of 2's?

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-01, 11:44 AM
Whoa, Save progressions are way too strong... three good saves? Need to be lowered, at least one of them... Like Fort. Or start two of the saves with 1's instead of 2's?

Well, it is based off monk, but I think your right. Do we need will saves? If I remember correctly, none of the benders' seeds require will saves, so how about a poor will save? Though Dragon Scholar gets a bonus to will saves at one point.

Ceiling009
2007-11-01, 11:50 AM
I mean, in general, I haven't really seen a class with all three saves being good, I've seen one with two, and a lot with just one... I guess Will could take the dive, as every fighter class except duskblade, and a few from the ToB has poor will progressions...

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-01, 11:53 AM
I mean, in general, I haven't really seen a class with all three saves being good, I've seen one with two, and a lot with just one... I guess Will could take the dive, as every fighter class except duskblade, and a few from the ToB has poor will progressions...

Tis done. And if you really want a better will save, just take 4 advancements of Dragon Scholar to add your intelligence to will saves.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-01, 03:20 PM
I hate double posting, but oh well...

Presenting....the Ocean Sentinel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3423305&postcount=5)!! The water-based Martial Artist style, master of counters and counter-counters and counter-counter-counters (yes there is an infinite loop built in). The basic idea of the class is to provoke as many AoOs as you can to kill the opponent :smalltongue: I think its an awesome idea if can say so my self :smallbiggrin:

Vadin
2007-11-01, 03:58 PM
Methinks that progressing in a different style ought not entirely cut you off from the styles you've taken in the past. Something akin to initiator levels in ToB might be appropriate here, allowing characters who have done a little Martial Artist multi-classing to keep their other discipline at 1/2 the level of their main discipline. If some requirements are placed on it (like you must have at least 3 or 4 levels in the primary and secondary style) and it costs a feat, it could be pretty useful.

A level 20 MA could then have, say, 16 levels in Mountain Protector and 8 levels in Wind Warrior. He has to actually spend 4 levels as a Wind Warrior, and the feat doesn't help until he reaches level 10 in Mountain Protector (where his WW level would be 5, more than his actual levels). He doesn't gain any bonus HD or the like from this, just extra style abilities at the sacrifice of capstone and high-level abilities.

[EDIT]Also, idk about the UA, but multiclass defense bonuses are handled with a -2 defense penalty in SWD20.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-11-01, 04:21 PM
I haven't taken a look at the Ocean Sentinel (nice name, by the way) yet, but it seems that you've neglected to put in the unarmed strike damage for the styles, Tataraus. Also, I take it that you've decided to keep the ki system throughout the class?

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-01, 04:37 PM
Methinks that progressing in a different style ought not entirely cut you off from the styles you've taken in the past. Something akin to initiator levels in ToB might be appropriate here, allowing characters who have done a little Martial Artist multi-classing to keep their other discipline at 1/2 the level of their main discipline. If some requirements are placed on it (like you must have at least 3 or 4 levels in the primary and secondary style) and it costs a feat, it could be pretty useful.

A level 20 MA could then have, say, 16 levels in Mountain Protector and 8 levels in Wind Warrior. He has to actually spend 4 levels as a Wind Warrior, and the feat doesn't help until he reaches level 10 in Mountain Protector (where his WW level would be 5, more than his actual levels). He doesn't gain any bonus HD or the like from this, just extra style abilities at the sacrifice of capstone and high-level abilities.

[EDIT]Also, idk about the UA, but multiclass defense bonuses are handled with a -2 defense penalty in SWD20.

Hm, the problem with that is each style is built to be a relatively powerful class on its own, so allowing a character to gain that many levels in a style is basically like allowing him to gestalt those overlapping levels. Just too powerful. Also, no one is supposed to get the master ability without focusing only on that style, otherwise they would be a "...paragon of..." the style.


I haven't taken a look at the Ocean Sentinel (nice name, by the way) yet, but it seems that you've neglected to put in the unarmed strike damage for the styles, Tataraus. Also, I take it that you've decided to keep the ki system throughout the class?

It took me a long time to figure out the name (good ol' thesaurus) but I'm happy with it.

I intentionally left out the unarmed damage progression, instead there is Unarmed Damage Increase listed at the rate as before for ease of multi-styling. The starting damage is 1d4, though the Dragon Scholar and Mountain Protector increase it at first level. And yes, I've decided to keep the Ki system, otherwise the class would be way too powerful (especially the Ocean Sentinel stuff at will).

As a short summary of the styles:
Wind Warrior - focuses on defense and maneuverability, attacks are weak but many at a time.
Mountain Protector - focuses on extremely powerful strikes while absorbing damage, maneuverability is very low.
Dragon Scholar - focuses on precise, single attacks and numerous special forms as well as maneuverability and tactics, weak at full-attacks and no specific defense.
Ocean Sentinel - focuses on getting attacked a lot and countering as well as recovering misses, usually takes a lot of damage and has weak attacks but many combos.

Ocean Sentinel combined with Wind Warrior's defense or Mountain Protector's hard hits seems like a good combination. And Dragon Scholar combined with Wind Warrior's maneuverability would work well also. I have yet to decide what happens if you get Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat when you already have it, I'm thinking a bonus or something like that, such as 3 extra AoOs per turn (Ocean Sentinel uses a lot of them).

Vadin
2007-11-01, 04:47 PM
Precisely! They max out at a certain point (the level will matter, but for the specifics of the example, lets say 4) if they do this. They have to spend 4 levels in two different styles. After that, they must get another 8 levels in the primary class so that theyre secondary (the one they already spent 4 levels in) will be at level 4. After that at level 9 (or at level 10, depending on whether the feat rounds up or down), they're level in the other style goes up to 5. They aren't allowed to master two styles, they're allowed to be good in one and decent in another.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-01, 04:52 PM
Precisely! They max out at a certain point (the level will matter, but for the specifics of the example, lets say 4) if they do this. They have to spend 4 levels in two different styles. After that, they must get another 8 levels in the primary class so that theyre secondary (the one they already spent 4 levels in) will be at level 4. After that at level 9 (or at level 10, depending on whether the feat rounds up or down), they're level in the other style goes up to 5. They aren't allowed to master two styles, they're allowed to be good in one and decent in another.

But each style is a class on its own! You are effectively allowing gestalting of two classes which is just too powerful. Sure it is limited somewhat, but still too powerful. Does anyone else have an opinion?

Ceiling009
2007-11-01, 05:38 PM
I love power, but I love balance more. Allowing built in gestalt I think is a bad thing. If anything, I guess you could make it a set of three feats to balance it really, cause that's three feats out of 7 that they would have to take to be relatively decent at two of the styles.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-01, 05:45 PM
Ok, at this point I'm going to say that the Wind Warrior and Mountain Protector are completed. I would like to give the Dragon Scholar a few more Fire Forms, but otherwise that is completed as well. So now I just have the Ocean Sentinel. If anyone thinks that those mentioned above as completed need more, good ahead and say so now.

Edit: Also, out of curiosity, lets have a little poll: What is your favorite style or possible combination of styles? Granted this won't be completely accurate since the Ocean Sentinel is not done, but its close enough that you can get the gist of it (hint: 13th level of Ocean Sentinel is a dead level).

I personally lean toward pure Dragon Scholar or a Dragon Scholar/Ocean Sentinel.

Vadin
2007-11-01, 06:17 PM
So, will all of the classes be receiving groovy forms like the Dragon Scholar, or are those pick-and-choose types of powers their unique privilege?

Ceiling009
2007-11-01, 06:20 PM
I love Ocean Sentinel... But.. wow. It sounds like they're going to take a beating, a lot of beatings. So I've got a few questions for Ocean Sentinel...

How many times can you use Tide Strike in a round? Like basically whenever you miss? even in a Full attack? Also does it work with AoO's? Like they incurred an attack of opportunity, if you miss can you try it again?

Fight with Tides: If that AoO were to knock you out or incapacitate you, do still get your AoO before you fall?

Undertoe Counter: does it work with Tide Strike?

Finally, I wish there was a stance where stepping into your threatened area provoked AoO's, not just only stepping through or moving away from. Though a good tumbler just takes this style down. Or an ability that if an opponent misses with an attack, you get an AoO to hit them with? I could be reading some of this wrong, either that or it's a really heavy feat somewhere...Actually it's Robilar Gambit from PHB 2...

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-01, 06:43 PM
I love Ocean Sentinel... But.. wow. It sounds like they're going to take a beating, a lot of beatings. So I've got a few questions for Ocean Sentinel...

How many times can you use Tide Strike in a round? Like basically whenever you miss? even in a Full attack? Also does it work with AoO's? Like they incurred an attack of opportunity, if you miss can you try it again?

Fight with Tides: If that AoO were to knock you out or incapacitate you, do still get your AoO before you fall?

Undertow Counter: does it work with Tide Strike?

Finally, I wish there was a stance where stepping into your threatened area provoked AoO's, not just only stepping through or moving away from. Though a good tumbler just takes this style down. Or an ability that if an opponent misses with an attack, you get an AoO to hit them with? I could be reading some of this wrong, either that or it's a really heavy feat somewhere...Actually it's Robilar Gambit from PHB 2...

Yes they take a lot of beatings, but they get Flow with the Tide to even it out a bit.

So your questions:
Tide Strike specifically leaves out limitations, it works anytime you miss a melee attack, every time.

Fight with the Tides: hm, I would say you do get the AoO, since it is a reaction so you get an effective 'death strike' type thing, of course you can still combo off of that AoO with Tide Strike etc.

Undertoe Current: As I said above, Tide Strike works every time.

Ah, I meant to include the entering a threatened area provokes AoOs in Master of the Seas *adds it*. Hehe, I lied, I made it a sperate class feature, Fluid Offense.
Robilar’s Gambit allows you to take an AoO after every attack against you, but opponents get a +4 to hit you. (and requires BAB+12 and Combat Reflexes).

The one problem with the Ocean Sentinel is it uses up Ki extremely fast, potentially all in one turn. So...

Enhanced Ki Pool
Prerequisites: Ki Pool class feature, Wisdom 18
Benefit: When you take this feat for the first time, your Ki pool increases by 2 points.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Each time you take the feat after the first time, the number of Ki points you gain increases by 1.

Edit: Oops, forget to respond to this:

So, will all of the classes be receiving groovy forms like the Dragon Scholar, or are those pick-and-choose types of powers their unique privilege?

Only the Dragon Scholar gets to choose amongst a number of forms to reflect the Scholarly aspect of the Style, allowing minor variations within, while the other styles are more rigid.

Ceiling009
2007-11-01, 06:52 PM
Awesome. Seriously awesome. err... When I get about to thinking without drooling about the coolness of being a counter-monkey, I'll try to think up of more things to ask about...

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-01, 06:58 PM
Awesome. Seriously awesome. err... When I get about to thinking without drooling about the coolness of being a counter-monkey, I'll try to think up of more things to ask about...

:tongue:
I know what you mean. I've always wanted to play something like this but it just doesn't exist. But then, I had to figure out how to make a water style neat that reflects a philosophy, then I imagined a guy learning from the ocean by feel its reactions to him and how no matter what he did, the ocean countered, it work beautify. My only concern is that either the Ocean Sentinel turns out too powerful becuase I am too caught up with the idea or it dies way too fast :smallannoyed:

Ceiling009
2007-11-01, 07:22 PM
That's true... I think in terms of power... it might be up there, but since it's not going to be particularly strong damage dealing wise; I would probably specify that missing with a power attack and tide striking it would only deal normal damage, and not the power attack. At this point, you just better hope for a great con score and really good DR.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-01, 07:32 PM
That's true... I think in terms of power... it might be up there, but since it's not going to be particularly strong damage dealing wise; I would probably specify that missing with a power attack and tide striking it would only deal normal damage, and not the power attack. At this point, you just better hope for a great con score and really good DR.

Well Tide Strike is a completely separate attack, albeit at the same bonus as the previous attack, so the penalty due to power attack would carry over, but not the damage (as far as I interpret the rules). So, in effect, a power attack hinders more than it helps, since you would have to apply twice the penalty. As far as taking damage, Flow with the Tides is probably better than DR in some ways, though the inconsistency of it hurts as does the Ki point cost, so its more for dire circumstances than anything I guess. You could always invest a few levels into Mountain Protector to get better damage and DR or Wind Warrior to get better defense. Though I guess Dragon Scholar doesn't work well as a secondary (interesting how that works out).

Ceiling009
2007-11-01, 07:42 PM
I mean, with let's say a Chain Shirt and 18 Wis, and 18 Dex, you'll have an AC of 22, that's pretty good. Even in Armor as DR it's like 20 AC with DR 2/-. With the defense bonus at like level 20... it's still a good chunk higher. And most of that AC is touch; which really hampers benders, which I think still have their blast as touch right? Or was it now just a normal range attack?

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-01, 07:49 PM
I mean, with let's say a Chain Shirt and 18 Wis, and 18 Dex, you'll have an AC of 22, that's pretty good. Even in Armor as DR it's like 20 AC with DR 2/-. With the defense bonus at like level 20... it's still a good chunk higher. And most of that AC is touch; which really hampers benders, which I think still have their blast as touch right? Or was it now just a normal range attack?

About AC 29 (given armor as DR as given in UA) but the equivalent bender has a +15 BAB and let's say 18 Dex, so a +19 that hits on a 10 or higher, 50% of the time. Even more if there are any other bonuses.

Vadin
2007-11-01, 07:52 PM
I think that having a high AC against benders is intended as some measure of balancing factor to make for their massive battlefield control and ranged destruction.

Ceiling009
2007-11-01, 08:23 PM
I this class or rather classes, works really well with the benders, and I could easily see them multi class with it, and be pretty much a lot like Azula, Zuko, Katara, and Toph. I could easily either the Wind Warrior or Dragon Scholar being Ty Lee. Quick hits, or really precise hits with disrupt bending, yeah, I can see it work.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-11-01, 08:45 PM
Well the entire idea behind making them into one class is that we could represent new and different martial arts in a simpler way; so I'd say that Ty Lee would merit her own fighting style in this class, rather than a feat. Her mobility isn't up to par with what you'd expect from a Wind Warrior of her apparent skill, though her flexibility and dodging abilities are.

A question, though: With the mechanics as they are, it wouldn't be too hard to put fighters as a style under this category (their special abilities would all be bonus feats, basically), as was implied by whoever it was that said something along the lines of "all fighter-types would fall under this category." The question is: do we want to do that? I, personally, feel that fighters are meant to be specialists in one specific weapon and one fighting style with that weapon, and that it should be separate from the martial artist. What do you guys think? It's definitely a possible idea, and has its pros and cons.

Ceiling009
2007-11-01, 09:31 PM
I think fighters are still perfectly feasible, representing those who would make their style or possibly self taught. As it is, these ummm, Monks, though extremely versatile, is no where near as versatile as the Fighter; but then again the Fighter isn't as, ummm, cool either. The Swordmaster is either a really focused fighter, or most likely a really focused Dragon Scholar.

Ty Lee... the Chi Master Style... ?
I would imagine her still getting fast movement, crazy bonuses to acrobatics, jumping attacks, somehow like a blade dancer from Oriental Adventures, and Ki powered stuns, disrupts, and others of that ilk. She herself may have made up that style, since they haven't quite shown many others or her teachers as to chi stopping or limb paralyzing attacks...

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-01, 10:22 PM
Well the entire idea behind making them into one class is that we could represent new and different martial arts in a simpler way; so I'd say that Ty Lee would merit her own fighting style in this class, rather than a feat. Her mobility isn't up to par with what you'd expect from a Wind Warrior of her apparent skill, though her flexibility and dodging abilities are.

I see her as a mix between Wind Warrior and Dragon Scholar, I don't know if there are enough unique abilities to make a 'Ty Lee' Style.


A question, though: With the mechanics as they are, it wouldn't be too hard to put fighters as a style under this category (their special abilities would all be bonus feats, basically), as was implied by whoever it was that said something along the lines of "all fighter-types would fall under this category." The question is: do we want to do that? I, personally, feel that fighters are meant to be specialists in one specific weapon and one fighting style with that weapon, and that it should be separate from the martial artist. What do you guys think? It's definitely a possible idea, and has its pros and cons.

True, it would not be hard to incorporate a bonus feat style, but I have always disliked fighters because of how bland they are. I don't want to make a Style that just gives bonus feats every other level, that just ruins it. However, if we were to make a weapon specialist, it might work, though maybe not as a full style, but as a half style (only 10 levels) and maybe Ty Lee's style could be a half style as well? What do you think?

We would have the element-based styles as the main styles with the secondary half or maybe even quarter size styles as sort of built in PrCs. I don't think it would be that complex.

Ceiling009
2007-11-01, 10:56 PM
This is about as complex as spellcasters. That's not a bad thing. But I mean, there are so many options to this one class, it's burgeoning on being a book into itself. That's mighty cool work. You could also in effect, make them prestige classes; as this setting really seems to lack homebrewed prestige classes. I think a weapon specialist is really more like the original Fighter, as he can pretty much define himself by his feats and thus his weapon. Hmm... You should organize the styles into schools, err... blargh it's getting too overly complicated. You could for Ty Lee's style, make it shorter; in effect you've made a prestige subset; I think I'd almost say make it a prestige class. Oh I don't know... cause every style or school really rewards you for following the path as far as possible, and making a shorter path; unless it's not as supremely as powerful as the capstones of the longer paths, might work out.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-01, 11:34 PM
This is just an option, advanced styles. So what do you think? Should this be included and I make a few more or what?

Weapon Master
{table=head]Level|Special|Defense Bonus
1st|Favored Weapon|
+7

2nd|Weapon Form|
+7

3rd|Weapon Form|
+8

4th|Weapon Form|
+8

5th|Martial Master, Weapon Form|
+9
[/table]

Advanced Style: This is an advanced style that can only be taken at level 10 or above and the Martial Artist must meet the prerequisites: Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization.

Favored Weapon: The Weapon Master's favored weapon is the weapon for which she has both Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization for. If the Weapon Master has more than one weapon that could apply, pick one of them. The Weapon Master gains a +2 bonus on all rolls involving the weapon (attack rolls, disarm attempts, trip attempts, etc.)

Weapon Form: A Weapon Master gains an ability or stance when wielding her favored weapon. Not all Weapon Forms are usable with all weapons.

Stunning Strike - This form is only usable with weapons that deal bludgeoning damage. A Weapon Master may choose to make any attack she makes a stunning strike by spend 1 Ki point before rolling the attack. If the attack is successful, the target is stunned for a number of rounds equal to the Weapon Master's wisdom modifier, fortitude save DC 10+damage dealt for half.
Fencing Stance - This is a stance that may be began or ended as a free action. Whenever the Weapon Master is in this stance, she may make attacks of opportunity against any enemy that enters a square she threatens. If the Weapon Master chooses not to take the attack of opportunity, the enemy is considered flanked until the beginning of the Weapon Master's turn.
Quick Peck - This form may only be used with a piercing weapon. A Weapon Master may spend 1 Ki point to make any attack with her favored weapon a touch attack.


Martial Master: A Weapon Master knows all the secrets of her chosen weapon and is a highly revered and feared warrior. Whenever a combat begins and the Weapon Master has her favored weapon drawn otherwise, when the Weapon Master first draws her weapon, she may make an intimidate check. All enemies within line of sight must make a will save DC equal to the intimidate check result or take a -2 penalty to AC, attack and damage rolls as well as all opposed checks made against the Weapon Master.

Note that there are only 3 Weapon Forms right now, these are just sample that I drew up real quick, I'd definitely make more.

Ceiling009
2007-11-02, 12:03 AM
Those are pretty good. Like astounding and smexy. Err... After all of this, you gotta wonder why bother even being any other melee fighter in the system... oh well. Barbarian is still really good, while Ranger is decent still... about Ty Lee's style, maybe you could add some grapples and the like, I know it's not shown explicitly in the show, but it could be possible. Either that or make a short progression like this for grapples and the like.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-11-03, 12:31 PM
This is just an option, advanced styles. So what do you think? Should this be included and I make a few more or what?

Weapon Master
{table=head]Level|Special|Defense Bonus
1st|Favored Weapon|
+7

2nd|Weapon Form|
+7

3rd|Weapon Form|
+8

4th|Weapon Form|
+8

5th|Martial Master, Weapon Form|
+9
[/table] *snipped*

Hrm. I honestly think that sticking to the standard fighter would be a better idea, with maybe a few martial arts styles based on the use of a single weapon (There are schools in the Philippines where people spend their whole lives mastering the use of the eskrima); but Oriental Adventures already has a Weapon Master prestige class that I think would work better, since it has more connection to soldier-types than martial artist-types. I mean, if there's no fighters, who would use all those feats?

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-03, 12:51 PM
Hrm. I honestly think that sticking to the standard fighter would be a better idea, with maybe a few martial arts styles based on the use of a single weapon (There are schools in the Philippines where people spend their whole lives mastering the use of the eskrima); but Oriental Adventures already has a Weapon Master prestige class that I think would work better, since it has more connection to soldier-types than martial artist-types. I mean, if there's no fighters, who would use all those feats?

Sure, then just allow the Martial Artist to multiclass into fighter? If you really just want the original fighter, then just use the original fighter. I don't care too much for that Weapon Master. In my mind, a weapon master would be able to use complex maneuvers, not just do more damage and hit better. Also remember that soldiers are martial artists of a sort. They learn the basic arts of offense and defense in combat, martial artist is not just limited to karate and other such art forms. You don't have to use your fists to be considered a martial artist. The term martial artist literally means:
martial - of, relating to, or suited for war or a warrior
artist - one skilled or versed in learned arts


Thus a martial artist is literally someone trained in the art of war, meaning every trained soldier and self-taught thug is a martial artist of sorts in addition to a karate or judo master.

[/rant]

Lakoda
2007-11-03, 02:35 PM
I've been following this thread (and the bending thread) for a while now. Well done you guys, you have made some really great stuff so far!!!

I just wanted to jump in here and share my opinion on the weapon master real quick. I think that the style of classes that have been developed here (both the martial and the bending ones) have a very unique feel that I feel don't fit well with the other core classes. I'd like to see the martial artist include weapon stances/forms/what-have-you for twenty levels like the other styles. A lot of the lower level style stuff could grant abilities similar to finess/focus/specialization. In a perfect world, I'd like to see styles for one-handed, two-handed, dual-weapons, and one-handed w/ shield. Don't let me get going on the different dmg types. I just don't think a normal fighter would do well against a martial artist, the already weak fighter class would get wasted. What you have going here would work in the Avatar world with no outside classes very well.

All that being said I think treating the Dim Mak type of stuff that Ty Lee uses as an "Advanced Style" would work very well.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-03, 02:46 PM
I've been following this thread (and the bending thread) for a while now. Well done you guys, you have made some really great stuff so far!!!

Thanks!


I just wanted to jump in here and share my opinion on the weapon master real quick. I think that the style of classes that have been developed here (both the martial and the bending ones) have a very unique feel that I feel don't fit well with the other core classes. I'd like to see the martial artist include weapon stances/forms/what-have-you for twenty levels like the other styles. A lot of the lower level style stuff could grant abilities similar to finess/focus/specialization. In a perfect world, I'd like to see styles for one-handed, two-handed, dual-weapons, and one-handed w/ shield. Don't let me get going on the different dmg types. I just don't think a normal fighter would do well against a martial artist, the already weak fighter class would get wasted. What you have going here would work in the Avatar world with no outside classes very well.

All that being said I think treating the Dim Mak type of stuff that Ty Lee uses as an "Advanced Style" would work very well.

I don't know if I exactly understand what you are suggesting. Are you suggesting that the weapon master thing be expanded as a full 20-level style? and/or broken up amongst different types of weapons and such? I don't know if I could come up with a full 20-level progression for all of that, but maybe the smaller progressions for each? Maybe allow for the progression to be taken earlier and possibly starting at 1st level? Theoretically, we could combine every single melee-type into this one class and it provides built in, easy multi-classing. That might work just work...

I think we would need special styles for each type of weapon since the weapon strike feature makes weapon damage irrelevant.

Ceiling009
2007-11-03, 10:12 PM
I really do like that 5 level progression for weapons style, as it obviously calls for being used in later levels, The Swordsman is probably a lot like that. The thing about this class really, is that it's embodying something... that I sort of saw Third edition try to discourage, maybe because of balance issues or something, is that, for styles like this, It ended up being a base class... Like Cleric and Paladin, Ranger and Druid, and lots of pre-made Gish stuff, they became each a separate class, while this class... really seems to be almost at least 4 base and 1 prestige class now. I'm kinda worried about it in terms of the power of versatility? This Martial Artist Class basically blows any other martial powered class out of the water; not so much if you stuck to one style, but by it's built in multi-class (style) feature. I mean think of it, take some levels of Ocean Sentinel, with some Mountain Protector, and maybe some Wind Warrior, then add in some Weapon Master... how crazy is that class? And you haven't even bothered to multi-class or prestige.

You've basically removed the need for fighters completely, which I do agree is rather weakling class by itself, and of course you've wiped out the reason to even bother with a standard monk in this setting (but wasn't that the point?). I'm not really saying this versatility is a bad thing, in fact I think it's great, where a player won't get bored playing this class all 20 levels. But not you gotta make it balances well enough. I think against benders this class would be do well enough, but let's say against a ranger? I'm not going to say much about Barbarians, as those guys can take it like the best of them... and since we've effectively cut out all the casting classes, what's left to compare them to the lowest denominator? The one good thing I guess is that through this the power levels over all are definitely less staggered.

Lakoda
2007-11-05, 09:57 AM
I don't know if I exactly understand what you are suggesting. Are you suggesting that the weapon master thing be expanded as a full 20-level style? and/or broken up amongst different types of weapons and such? I don't know if I could come up with a full 20-level progression for all of that, but maybe the smaller progressions for each? Maybe allow for the progression to be taken earlier and possibly starting at 1st level? Theoretically, we could combine every single melee-type into this one class and it provides built in, easy multi-classing. That might work just work...

I think we would need special styles for each type of weapon since the weapon strike feature makes weapon damage irrelevant.

It wasn't so much of a suggestion as a wish. To clarify, I was wishing for both (20 level progression & division by weapon type).

I know 20 levels of a weapon (let alone 20 levels for each [type] of weapon is daunting) but a lot of the features are is already present, they just need the same sort of 'flavor' as the martial artists have.

I maybe wrong here, but the MA is a feat tree for each form/style. The weapon master would be something similar, the work really is just giving good names and building the tree from existing functionality and adding 1 or 2 new things for flare. It's still a butt load of work but it isn't as much raw creation as you've don't for the MA (and especially for the benders). d20/D&D is already built heavily around weapon based combat, hand to hand was extremely laking.

Weapon Master should probably be in a separate thread too, if you wanted to go forward with it as a collection of weapons/weapon types. It certainly works as a prestige form to the MA. It's you work, so I won't step on any toes. :smallbiggrin:


<snip> But not you gotta make it balances well enough. I think against benders this class would be do well enough, but let's say against a ranger? I'm not going to say much about Barbarians, as those guys can take it like the best of them... and since we've effectively cut out all the casting classes, what's left to compare them to the lowest denominator? The one good thing I guess is that through this the power levels over all are definitely less staggered.

If I ran a campaign with these classes (which I will probably do) I wouldn't allow Barbs and Rangers as they don't really fit in my view of the world, so I don't know if you need to balance against them.

That reminded me of the fire nation sniper guys (the YuuYan I think). That sort of skill screams for a full 20 level progression (or a prestige off of a ranged/archer weapon class).

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-05, 10:46 AM
That reminded me of the fire nation sniper guys (the YuuYan I think). That sort of skill screams for a full 20 level progression (or a prestige off of a ranged/archer weapon class).

Gah! That's what I was going to do! A ranged style, thanks for reminding me and look for some sort of ranged style before the end of the week, though I will probably rip a lot of it off of my Archer class in my LotR D20. In fact it might be exactly the same since I love that class.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-05, 12:35 PM
Well, I was a little faster than expected. Presenting the Hawk-Eye Sniper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3423293&postcount=4)!!

THis style is focused mostly on taking precise shots with a ranged weapon and then at higher levels you can take a few pot-shots until 18th level you can make a lot of quick shots. And all of this combined with manyshot. As a note and possible clarification, any ability that requires a "full-round action to make a single attack with a ranged weapon" means any attack that requires one attack roll qualifies, including willingly forgoing an iterative attacks you would normally make. Also, a ranged weapon is any weapon that has a listed range increment such as crossbows, straight bows, daggers, throwing axes, etc. But if you use a weapon in melee, it is not considered a ranged weapon for that attack.

Any other clarifications or questions?

Lakoda
2007-11-05, 01:52 PM
Does the dex bonus to dmg from True Shot stack with the str dmg from thrown weapons or the dmg bonus from mighty bows? The harder you throw something the less accuracy you have, generally speaking.

Defensive Archer, is the AoO a melee attack or a ranged. The addition of allow melee attacks with your ranged weapon implies that the AoO is a melee attack. A bow is like a quarter staff, but what about xbows? Also, does the ability to attack with your bow as a qstaff w/o penalties work for normal attacks (ie: now and AoO)?

{edit: more questions/comments}
Eek! Doom Shot is save or die. Not a big fan of that mechanic, what about save or take x2 or x3 dmg, or save or unconscious.

Improved Focused Shot and Deadly Missile seem like they should cost 1 ki point to me.

I'm a little confused on Master of the Horizon. I could use clarification on how Far Shot relates to this, as it affects Thrown and Ranges weapons differently. Also shouldn't "If you have the Far Shot feat, instead double the range increment. This increase applies after the increase from Ranged Weapon Mastery." say Far Shot instead, I didn't think RWM gave a range increase.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-05, 02:02 PM
Does the dex bonus to dmg from True Shot stack with the str dmg from thrown weapons or the dmg bonus from mighty bows? The harder you throw something the less accuracy you have, generally speaking.

Defensive Archer, is the AoO a melee attack or a ranged. The addition of allow melee attacks with your ranged weapon implies that the AoO is a melee attack. A bow is like a quarter staff, but what about xbows? Also, does the ability to attack with your bow as a qstaff w/o penalties work for normal attacks (ie: now and AoO)?

First the True Strike question:

True Shot: At 4th level, whenever you take a full round action to make a single attack with a ranged weapon, you may add you dexterity modifier to the damage. This is in addition to any extra damage due to strength such as with a thrown weapon or composite bow.
The emphasis should explain it. True, the harder you through something, the less accurate, but the strength damage is just your natural strength, not like a power throw.

Defensive Archer allows you to use a melee attack or ranged attack for AoOs, all ranged weapons including bows, crossbows, etc. that don't have melee damage are treated as clubs (originally said qstaff, but I've fixed that). The ability to make melee attacks can be used for any attack.

Darkbane
2007-11-05, 02:05 PM
I think allowing Weapon Focus/Specialization with all ranged weapons is a bit much; it takes an epic feat (Epic Prowess) to give you +1 to all attacks, and the sniper's attacks will be mostly ranged. Also, increase the ki point cost for Doom Shot, Swift Shot, and Hawk Shot.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-05, 02:08 PM
I think allowing Weapon Focus/Specialization with all ranged weapons is a bit much; it takes an epic feat (Epic Prowess) to give you +1 to all attacks, and the sniper's attacks will be mostly ranged.

You're right. I originally had it as a choose one weapon then at higher levels you could spend an hour to re-spec. I guess I'll put that back in...

Lakoda
2007-11-05, 02:17 PM
First the True Strike question:

The emphasis should explain it. True, the harder you through something, the less accurate, but the strength damage is just your natural strength, not like a power throw.

Defensive Archer allows you to use a melee attack or ranged attack for AoOs, all ranged weapons including bows, crossbows, etc. that don't have melee damage are treated as clubs (originally said qstaff, but I've fixed that). The ability to make melee attacks can be used for any attack.

bah!, how did I miss that. You're right about the str thing, I was looking at it from a different perspective.

I added more questions to my list but you all got to talking before I finished my edit, so here are the questions I added:

Eek! Doom Shot is save or die. Not a big fan of that mechanic, what about save or take x2 or x3 dmg, or save or unconscious.

Improved Focused Shot and Deadly Missile seem like they should cost 1 ki point to me.

I'm a little confused on Master of the Horizon. I could use clarification on how Far Shot relates to this, as it affects Thrown and Ranges weapons differently. Also shouldn't "If you have the Far Shot feat, instead double the range increment. This increase applies after the increase from Ranged Weapon Mastery." say Far Shot instead, I didn't think RWM gave a range increase.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-05, 02:31 PM
bah!, how did I miss that. You're right about the str thing, I was looking at it from a different perspective.

I added more questions to my list but you all got to talking before I finished my edit, so here are the questions I added:

Eek! Doom Shot is save or die. Not a big fan of that mechanic, what about save or take x2 or x3 dmg, or save or unconscious.

Improved Focused Shot and Deadly Missile seem like they should cost 1 ki point to me.

I'm a little confused on Master of the Horizon. I could use clarification on how Far Shot relates to this, as it affects Thrown and Ranges weapons differently. Also shouldn't "If you have the Far Shot feat, instead double the range increment. This increase applies after the increase from Ranged Weapon Mastery." say Far Shot instead, I didn't think RWM gave a range increase.

I'm just too quick!:smalltongue:

Doom Shot is a carry over from the previous class, so I was thinking of changing it since it is some much more powerful here (where SoD's don't exist). I was having trouble figuring out what to do, but I like your suggestion of double/triple damage.

I don't want the Focused Shots to require Ki, so if you run out you still have something neat to do. As for Deadly Missile, I guess Ki would be needed...

Master of the Horizon: First off let's look at those feats,

Far Shot - When you use a projectile weapon, such as a bow, its range increment increases by one-half (multiply by 1˝). When you use a thrown weapon, its range increment is doubled.
So, Far Shot normally increase by 1/2 for projectile weapons, but with Master of the Horizon it doubles the range. This has no additional effect for thrown weapons (they still get doubled instead).


Ranged Weapon Mastery - Any Ranged X damage-type weapon you wield has a +2 bonus on attack & damage –and– +20ft range
increment.
Emphasis mine. So basically for calculating the range take the original, add the 20ft for RWM then increase it by either the 25% or 100%.

I hope that clears it up.

Lakoda
2007-11-05, 03:13 PM
I think I got it. Under MotH the Far Shot bonus is ignored in exchange for a the additional +75%.

To clarify, I was only suggesting that Improved Focused Shot use points - either way you're right the class needs something when all the points are gone. I could see splitting Doom Shot in half; one ability to function as adamantine (which would require a point) and one ability to function as one size bigger which I could see as being in affect all of the time (possibly, maybe...).

In the end I like it. It fits with the other classes (functionally speaking) very well. (we already know the fluff fits). Oh and btw, Master of the Horizon is a really kick ass name.

Lakoda
2007-11-05, 03:25 PM
You're right. I originally had it as a choose one weapon then at higher levels you could spend an hour to re-spec. I guess I'll put that back in...

With Multi-Weapon Mastery it might be meaningful to open up the greater weapon focus/specialization feats to the Sniper. They're not fighters but they should have access to these feats if they want to take them. Either that or a mod for the fighter only feats should be enacted stating which of the Avatar classes are to be treated as fighters (and under what circumstances that happens) - especially if fighters are replaced Weapon Masters.

Partysan
2007-11-05, 03:39 PM
(I think I don't have to say that this is great^^)

I read that people think that a multiclassed water/earth/air etc. martial artist would outclass the fighter etc etc.
Now I don't actually think that you should be able to multiclass between the different elemental styles that easily - each one belongs to a different (and partly hostile) culture and the have great differences in techniques and philosophy (think of Aang trying to learn earth bending). Fluffwise I cannot imagine a martial artist mixing those styles wildly.
I wouldn't forbid to multiclass like you cannot multiclass between benders (which is impossible unless you are the Avatar) but I think it is highly unlikely that someone would have levels in 3(!) of these styles.
I think some restriction for multiclassing between the element styles would make some sense. Something like the Paladin maybe, if you take levels in another style you cannot take levels in your first anymore (Fluff: you have switched the sides and/or changed your philosophy of fighting), maybe a feat to eliminate that restriction for one pairing (one feat for each possible pairing) (Fluff: you study the style of your enemies to counter it or you have managed to keep a a balance).
Examples:
1. A young dragon scholar doesn't want to fight against the earth kingdom anymore, because he knows that it is an unjust war. He runs away to some earth people and after fighting at their side for some battles he does adopt their fighting style. He takes some levels in mountain protector, but cannot learn more techniques of the dragon scholar.
2. Said young fire soldier after a while realizes that his knowledge in dragon scholar's techniques is not a shame but a chance. He begins to train his old techniques again and tries to combine them. He takes a feat that allows him to multiclass between mountain protector and dragon scholar.
3. His mates from the earth kingdom decide to use his knowledge about the fiery techniques. They take the feat and learn from him to know their enemy.

imo in the avatar world there are no people that just learn the fighting style of every nation. Most of them know only one. However as there may be cases in which there is a sense behind the combination I would restrict but not forbid it. However I can hardly see someone combining more than two of these styles.

About the fighter: I must say that there really should be a non-element class for armed combat, like e.g. Sokka or Jet probably would have. But 20 levels for each weapon and weapon combination, that is just too much. I'd rather have weapon style feats especially fitting for the avatar world. Maybe I'll make some if I have time.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-05, 04:17 PM
I think I got it. Under MotH the Far Shot bonus is ignored in exchange for a the additional +75%.
Correct.


To clarify, I was only suggesting that Improved Focused Shot use points - either way you're right the class needs something when all the points are gone. I could see splitting Doom Shot in half; one ability to function as adamantine (which would require a point) and one ability to function as one size bigger which I could see as being in affect all of the time (possibly, maybe...).
I assume you are referring to Deadly Missile? If so, the adamantine part doesn't really do much since nothing really has damage reduction bypassed by adamantine. Mostly that's for damage vs objects. I think I'll keep it like it is for now, playtesting might change it. Unfortunately, if you wanted to playtest it, it seems Ceiling beat you to it.


In the end I like it. It fits with the other classes (functionally speaking) very well. (we already know the fluff fits). Oh and btw, Master of the Horizon is a really kick ass name.
You really think that name is that awesome? I guess it doesn't seem so amazing to me 'cause I made it...and ripped it off the old ability Horizon Archer. Though, know that I think about it, I did think that was a very appropriate name when I made the Archer class (seems like a long time ago, but that thread pops up all the time).

And now I'm rambling.

Ceiling009
2007-11-05, 04:38 PM
The Class has it as built in multiclass (style), its not different classes. And while these do like they are tied to nations, but they are more tied to philosophies; which have no no borders or allegiances. In the current setting, it's less likely to encounter people who practice more than one, but it's not entirely impossible nor would it really take a feat to "multiclass" between the two styles. I think they're like fighting schools, the same way there are spell schools. Since there are now... 4 unarmed/armed style philosophies, 1 ranged style, it has basically replaced every melee or weapon based class... except maybe classes that encourage one or two hander styles, and in Avatar, the rare weapon and board style. Really if you think about it, in Avatar world, there are really 3 archetypes, Bender, Fighter, and Sideliner. Benders take over the Cleric/Caster/Monk archetypes... This Martial Artist, takes over every thing else really, except maybe the rogue. In a standard game, these guys are still no match for properly prepared casters, but they easily outclass fighter and ranger; barbarian to me really still embodies the wild lawless warriors... and I think can pretty much hold his own still. I'm just saying in a standard game, Ranger, Fighter, and maybe Barbarian could be over shadowed by this class.

Lakoda
2007-11-05, 04:45 PM
I assume you are referring to Deadly Missile?

Yes I was ... Copy & Paste strikes again. :smallwink:

As for the name, I like it a lot b/c it instantly reminds me of the episode with them; specifically the shot that hits the blue spirit in the head.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-05, 05:28 PM
The playtesting Battle Arena (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62392) is up and recruiting combatants! Come gladiators of the four nations! Test your mettle against the best of the best, see your rivials break in half before you or destroy you with uber-cheesiness! Come one, come all!!

levi
2007-11-05, 06:08 PM
This seems to be a really good thing you've got going on here. It seems to fit nicely with the benders and the rest of the Avatar universe. You have made good progress towards replacing the monk and many of the other melee classes.

You've replaced the monk, made decent inroads on replacing the fighter, and replaced one of the two ranger styles. All that leaves is rouge, bararian, and the other half of ranger.

Now the other half of the ranger could be easily done with an expansion of weapon master or the creation of full blown weapon styles. Personally I think a series of 10 level styles for single weapon, dual weilding, and sword and board could work out nicely. It would also be cool to see something for finesse based styles and other things, such as sneak attack (and related stuff), Dim Mak (ala Tai Li), and berserker rage (ala Barbarians).

I also think that these sorts of styles (except, possibly the Dim Mak stuff) should be allowed from level one. At this point you'd have replaced (from a fighting style perspective) all the martial classes. Which, honestly, doesn't seem like a bad thing to me (for this setting).

Another cool thing about making such weapon styles is that we could attempt to fix the often cited balance issues with the three main weapon styles in standard d20. (The usual argument is that single weapon is superior in most cases, dual weilding is only good if you have extra dice like sneak attack, and that sword and board is hosed. It's kind of sad.)

Half casters could easily be replaced by multiclassing a bender class and martial artist. About the only thing I see as not being replicatable by such as system would be the skill ***** aspect of rouges. Perhaps they could just multiclass as Experts, but Expert is a pretty weak class.

If you want some help developing these other styles myself and others are interested, I'm sure I could come up with some ideas. (Plus, I'm sure I'm not the only one.)

So, do you think we should go all out? It definetly seems possible (and desireable) to do so within this framework.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-05, 08:31 PM
I would like to keep both the Barbarian and Rogue. Both are standards and they work every well. I see no reason to redo them because I would just end up remaking them almost exactly the same. We need some variation. As for weapon styles, I do want to get a few maybe 10 level things for basic TWF, Dex-based melee, one-handed sword, and polearm. First off, remember that Avatar is an eastern setting with definite Japanese, Chinese, and Indian influences. Two-handed swords are closer to polearms than European greatswords. Sword & board largely does not exist except in the Indian-type areas. Also, while I am not a scholar of such, I do like to hold true to actual fighting styles. TWF would largely be with small weapons or Tiger Head Hook Swords. The one-handed sword would be a katana, and not the uber weapon most of the world thinks it is. Polearms are mostly glaives and spears possibly nagamaki or naginata, but we have not seen any yet.

If you know anything of these weapons, go ahead and make some styles, however, I might be ruthless in my critiques especially with the katana. You have been warned, but also encouraged, you might learn something to! I would highly suggest researching the style you choose, that usually helps.

jindra34
2007-11-05, 08:36 PM
What if any flexible weapons would be included and would there be a matching/ apropriate style?

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-05, 08:41 PM
What if any flexible weapons would be included and would there be a matching/ apropriate style?

By flexible weapons you mean like sabres, rapiers, small swords, etc.? To my knowledge, no such weapons would exist. Most swords are single-edged weapons (though a European longsword did show up). The culture didn't support those types of weapons much, though if you can find proof of them, an appropriate style could be created.

jindra34
2007-11-05, 08:44 PM
By flexible weapons you mean like sabres, rapiers, small swords, etc.? To my knowledge, no such weapons would exist. Most swords are single-edged weapons (though a European longsword did show up). The culture didn't support those types of weapons much, though if you can find proof of them, an appropriate style could be created.

Flexible as in weighted chains, chain blades, multi-section staffs and nunchuks.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-05, 08:50 PM
Flexible as in weighted chains, chain blades, multi-section staffs and nunchuks.

Ah...of course. Sure, you want to make a style? Go ahead, I've got the Battle Arena to run, so I don't have much time plus I want to fill a dead level in the Hawk-Eye Sniper before testing...and I have school...ugh. But I love making this stuff, so its all good. :smalltongue:

Edit: And I don't know much about those fighting styles, so my critiques won't be very harsh (if that's an incentive).

Ceiling009
2007-11-05, 11:55 PM
For flexible weapons like he chain and the staff, I could see the Ocean Sentinel use them too, but they have a different focus really; so it should warrant a style in it of itself.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-06, 09:05 PM
So...is anyone up to the task of making weapon type styles? Or were they just suggestions for me to do so? I might take on the task at some point, but I'm a little worn out right now, so if some one starts some up I'll help as much as I can.

Thantos
2007-11-06, 10:18 PM
I would love to but I am not all that good at finding a balance with in a class so I will start it and if you wonderful people could balance it for me I would...well...very estactic(SP).

I want to make a two weapon fighting friendly style. So on to the Slashing master(needs a better name though).

levi
2007-11-06, 10:30 PM
Well, I said I'd be willing to help with making weapon styles. I don't think I know quite enough about the balance of DnD weapon combat to do it alone, but I'd be willing to help. I also know a fair bit about eastern martial arts, but am not a student and/or have exhasutive knowledge, so some help would be appreciated.

However, I do have something to contribute right now. It's nothing much, simply stats for katana and related swords that aren't uberweapons, but rather, I belive, accurately reflect them in the d20 system.

{table=head]Category | Small | Medium | Critical | Cost | Weight | Profiency
Light | 1d2 | 1d3 | 18-20/x2 | ... | ... |Simple
Light | 1d3 | 1d4 | 18-20/x2 | ... | ... | Martial
One Handed | 1d4 | 1d6 | 18-20/x2 | ... | ... | Martial
One Handed* | 1d6 | 1d8 | 18-20/x2 | ... | ... | Exotic*
Two Handed | 1d8 | 1d10 | 18-20/x2 | ... | ... | Martial
Two Handed | 1d10 | 2d6 | 18-20/x2 | ... | ... | Exotic
[/table]
* Or Two Handed as a Martial weapon.

These are simply curved analogs of the basic (european) swords. The names are simply examples. Other weapons can fall into theses catagories. (In fact, the Wakizashi is the same as a Scimitar.) If someone could help me out with costs and realistic (rather than silly inflated) weights, that'd be cool.

As for the Katana based style, should we make Kenjutsu and Iajutsu seperate styles (it'd be more realistic) or combine them into one (it'd be simpler)?

As for actuall flexible weapons (as opposed to chain weapons) there are actually several Traditional Chinese Kung Fu weapons that could be catagorized as such: some Jains, the Butterfly Sword (not to be confused with Butterfly Knives) and the Bamboo Spear. Whether any such weapons have appeared on the show, I can't say, but they show up in Kung Fu movies all the time.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-06, 11:00 PM
Looks good levi, the bamboo spear made a cameo appearance in Sokka's Master when Sokka was in the weapon's shop trying out different weapons.

I'd say there is only one type of katana (for simplicity's sake) and it would deal the same damage as a longsword. Also remember that it is a piercing weapon primarily while it does excel at slashing, piercing is much more effective against armors.

Thantos
2007-11-07, 01:11 AM
I got to go to bed right now but tomarrow I will put up what I have for a slashing master. I don't know how it will fit but I think it is cool so far.

levi
2007-11-07, 02:03 AM
I just realized I forgot one weapon in the chart, which lead to some of it being a little off. As I was fixing that, I remembered that the DnD weapon categories don't really line up very well with traditional Japanese sword categories.

DnD swords have six categories (dagger, short, long, bastard, great, full). Japanese blades are categoriezed in various ways, but the size categories used by the average westerner are only four: Tanto, Wakizashi, Katana, and Odachi (or Nodachi, a similar, but different weapon).

The Katana is almost always (Hollywood notwithstanding) weilded two handed, so I belive it should be the Greatsword equvilant. On the other tentacle, one of the remaining Kenjusu Ryus does teach the one handed style and the image is very popular. So I'm not sure what's the best way to line them up.

In traditional Japanese blade classification, they are split up by length, mesured in shaku, a unit approximately one foot in length. A blade less than one shaku is considered a tanto ("knife"). A blade one to two shaku in length is considered a shoto ("short sword"). A blade longer than two shaku is considered a daito ("long sword").

Katana are usually in the range of 2.3 shaku (70cm) to 2.45 shaku (74cm). Katana smaller than 2 shaku are considered chisa katana. Wakizashi are even shorter and average 1.65 shaku (50cm). Anything over 3 shaku is considered an odachi[i].

As complex as all that is, that's really only the tip of the iceburg. I haven't even gotten into the types of [i]tachi and other such things. (Like the use of o- ("long") and ko- ("short").

Honestly, as there are a wide variety of curved blades used the world over that in DnD would use the same stats as those in my chart, I've given up on trying to name them. Of course, that does make it hard to use in a game.

Perhaps, rules wise, one could just use the names: Knife, Short Saber, Long Saber, Bastard Saber, Great Saber, and Full Saber. Pretty generic and not very historical, but so are the DnD names for the straight double bladed swords. I just don't know. How's this:

{table=head]Japanese | European | Category | Profiecny
Tanto | Dagger | Light | Simple
Wakizashi | Short Sword | Light | Martial
Owakizashi | Long Sword | One Handed | Martial
Chisa Katana | Bastard Sword | One Handed | Exotic
Katana | Great Sword | Two Handed | Martial
Odachi | Full Blade | Two Handed | Exotic
[/table]

I don't know whether that should go "kowakizashi" then "wakizashi" or "owakizashi" then "owakizashi".

I suppose the full blade category could be dropped then it could go "tanto", "wakizashi", "chisa katana", "katana", "odachi". However, I don't really like that idea because Odachi are large and really seem to be an exotic weapon to me.

As for peircing weapons being better against armor, in reality that is a valid point, but in DnD there isn't really any mechanism for that. As far as I'm conserned, all swords (curved or straight) should do "Piercing or Slashing". It has very little game effect and bothering to keep track of exactly what sort of so-called "long sword" a character has to decide what damage category it can do is more work than it's worth.

Lakoda
2007-11-07, 09:05 AM
So...is anyone up to the task of making weapon type styles? Or were they just suggestions for me to do so? I might take on the task at some point, but I'm a little worn out right now, so if some one starts some up I'll help as much as I can.

I have ideas for abilities (for the different styles) that I was going to start putting together this week and try and finalize over the weekend - eta Monday morning. If you all like what you see use it in part or whole. I'm really bad with naming abilities and such so they will be practical names until someone fluffs them.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-07, 09:08 AM
Ah yes, the wonderful world of weapons that D&D simplifies so much. I agree with you, levi, to keep it simple. That second chart looks fine and since you gave equivalents, we might as well use those stats. So, one to the styles!

What are you looking for? I'm not starting I've got too many other things to but, but still:
Made you look! :tongue:

levi
2007-11-07, 06:18 PM
I have some ideas of my own, but am going to be out of town for five days or so, so I may not be able to develop any of them before you get yours posted. I shoul have 'net access though, so who knows.

Just to keep us working on different angles, what weapons styles are you thinking about?

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-07, 06:24 PM
Just to keep us working on different angles, what weapons styles are you thinking about?

Very good question. That was part of the problem, I don't really know what to aim for. Should I have a Spear, big-sword, dual-wield, and hammer? Or Weapon tricks (trip, disarm, sunder, etc.), sword as a whole, reach and dual wield? Or something completely different...number 3: the Larch

Thantos
2007-11-07, 06:56 PM
Well here it is:

Moved to other post for the fix

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-07, 07:12 PM
Uh, do you have any class feature descriptions? Oops, too fast:smalltongue:
As for a name...Tiger Blade?
The tiger does represent an intimidating creature attacking with both claws out and there is a certain sword that bears the name Tiger that I foresee those using this style gaining proficiency with :smallbiggrin:

Edit: Is this supposed to be a TWFing style directly or indirectly?

Thantos
2007-11-07, 07:32 PM
I want it to be TWF freindly, so I want it to work either way but I think it screams TWF. Oh and Tiger Blade is a great name.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-07, 10:25 PM
OCD alert!! Copy this code to replace your existing table to fix the formating

{table=head]Level|Special|Defense Bonus

1st|Second Slash +1d4|
+2

2nd|Quick Draw, Chopping Fists|
+2

3rd|Swinging Blades|
+3

4th|Unarmed Damage Increase|
+3

5th|Pounce|
+3

6th|Second Slash +2d4|
+4

7th|Surprising Draw|
+4

8th|Whirlwind Attack|
+4

9th|Final Strike|
+5

10th|Unarmed Damage Increase|
+5

11th|Whirling Blades|
+5

12th|Second Slash +3d4|
+6

13th|-|
+6

14th|Greater Surprising Draw|
+6

15th|-|
+7

16th|Unarmed Damage Increase|
+7

17th|-|
+7

18th|Second Slash +4d4|
+8

19th|Greater Final Strike|
+8

20th|Flashing Assault|
+8

[/table]


Wepon Profecentcies: A Tiger blade is profecent with the dager(regular and Punching), Handaxe, Short Sword, Battle Axe Scimitar, Longsword, Greatsword, Greataxe, Kama, Tiger Head Hook Swords (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57913)and Bastard Sword(Martial version). Tiger Blade are Profecent with Light armors, but not sheilds.
I must say I like :smallbiggrin: The only comment I'll make is that punching dagger goes against the rest of the class.


Second Slash: A Tiger blade Learns to hit an older wound to do more damage. When makeing an attack on a target that they have already hit and done damage to this turn, they may do an extra +xd4 damage. This extra damage doesn't affect non-livilng creatures/objects, or those imune to critical hits.
Sounds good (despite spelling).


Ouick Draw: A Tiger Blade Gains Quick Draw as a bonus feat, even if they do not met the requirements.
Can't really argue with that.


Chopping Fists: By mastering the way he strikes, a Tiger blade may treat his Unarmed strikes as Slashing for the purpuses of Class features and bypassing Damage reduction.
For an unarmed Martial Artist, its good, but not great, but I'd keep it in for utility.


Swinging Blades: Through intencse training to have control over their blade, a Tiger Blade learns to change direction of the blade adn perform Dextorous acts with his blade. A slashing master aplies his dexterity modifier to all attack roles in addition to their strength modifier. This only works with a slashing weapon and when wearing light or no armor and only carring a light load.
Spelling errors galore...I'd clean it up by just copying Insightful Strike from Dragon Scholar and replacing Int with Dex. Also, make a note that if you use weapon finesse you may add twice your dex modifier.


Pounce: By continually moving his blades, a Tiger Blade may make a full round attack at the end of a charge. This works just like the monster ablity of the same name. This cost 1 ki per round used, and can only be done with slashing weapons.
Perfect.


Surprising Draw: To prepare for the inevitable ambush, Tiger Blade learn to draw and attack at the same time. To do so costs 1 ki and all attacks take a -2 to hit which last until the start of their next turn. This only works with a slashing weapon and when wearing Light or no armor and only carring a light load.
Wait...this doesn't do anything. You already have Quick Draw, allowing you to draw your weapons as a free action.


Whirlwind Attack: A Tiger Blade gains whirlwind attack as a bonus feat, even if they do not met the requirements.
Lovely!


Final Strike: By learnign to follow through on his attacks a Tiger Blade can make an extra attack in a full round action, however only if they hit with all other attacks. This attack is at their Highest Attack bonus, and cost 2 ki to use.
Not really worth it. You need to hit with all attacks then all you get is one more for 2 Ki points? I'd have it as a fort save or take bonus damage or temporary ability damage.


Whirling Blades: Because of their continual training Tiger Blades can expanded their finesse to do more damage. A Tiger blade may apply their Dexterity modifier in addition to the strength modifier. This only works with a slashing weapon and when wearing Light or no armor and only carring a light load.
A little confusing as written, I suggest using this: "A Tiger Blade may add her dexterity modifier to damage with slashing weapons while in no more than light armor and no more than light encumbrance".


Greater Surprising Draw: As Surprising Draw except only -2 to attacks durring their turn.
Wait...I'm confused, what does Surprising Draw do exactly?


Greater Final Strike: As Final Strike except for two additional attackes instead of one both at the highest attack bonus.
Same sort of comment here, I suggest the enemy gets a fort save or takes extra damage or temporary ability damage.


Flashing Assualt: By continually moving and weaving their blade, a Tiger blade learns to strike where it is least excected. This allows them to attack a single target as if they are flat-footed for all attackes the Tiger Blade makes against them until the next turn. This cost 3 ki and works with Final strike and Greater Final strike.
Hm, a little bit more powerful than the Wind Warrior ability but does not merit a full 3 Ki, more like 2. Also, the capstone ability must be Master of the X, I suggest X to be Claw, so Master of the Claw for the capstone ability name.

Overall, pretty decent. The only big problem is the spelling :smallbiggrin:

Thantos
2007-11-07, 10:40 PM
Yeah I knew it would have allot of spelling errors forgot that there is a built in spell check on the forums. On to your comments.



Surprising Draw: To prepare for the inevitable ambush, Tiger Blade learn to draw and attack at the same time. To do so costs 1 ki and all attacks take a -2 to hit which last until the start of their next turn. This only works with a slashing weapon and when wearing Light or no armor and only carring a light load.
Wait...this doesn't do anything. You already have Quick Draw, allowing you to draw your weapons as a free action.

This is that you get an extra attack as you draw. So a lvl twenty would be able to do five attacks and draw all in the same turn.



Final Strike: By learnign to follow through on his attacks a Tiger Blade can make an extra attack in a full round action, however only if they hit with all other attacks. This attack is at their Highest Attack bonus, and cost 2 ki to use.
Not really worth it. You need to hit with all attacks then all you get is one more for 2 Ki points? I'd have it as a fort save or take bonus damage or temporary ability damage.

How about this:
Follow up strike: When ever a Tiger blade hits a target he may attempt to hit the same target again with the same Attack bonus as the first attack except at -4 to hit. Both attacks are resolve as normal. This bonus attack is in addition to other attacks such as those granted by a high BAB or using multiple weapons.

and then for the Greater version:
Greater Follow up strike: If you hit with the first follow up strike you may attack again at another -4 to hit for a total fo -8 to hit.

I will change the name of the final ablity.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-07, 10:52 PM
Ok, Surprising Strike makes sense now, try to word it a little better. But I have a comment I'll combine with the Follow Up Strike...


How about this:
Follow up strike: When ever a Tiger blade hits a target he may attempt to hit the same target again with the same Attack bonus as the first attack except at -4 to hit. Both attacks are resolve as normal. This bonus attack is in addition to other attacks such as those granted by a high BAB or using multiple weapons.

and then for the Greater version:
Greater Follow up strike: If you hit with the first follow up strike you may attack again at another -4 to hit for a total fo -8 to hit.
Ok, a solid ability my only concern (like that of Surprising Strike) is that this really steps on the Wind Warrior's toes here. Wind Warrior gets the tons of attacks. I want each style to have unique focuses that can combine together to make neat combos. So, I am really questionable about the extra attacks. We already have two styles that give extra attacks, one is just onslaughts of attacks (Wind Warrior) while the other gives strings of comboing counters (Ocean Sentinel) and adding a third is really pushing it, there is very little room (if any) to get another "crazy number of attacks"-style without overlaps. Think about it.


I will change the name of the final ablity.
Good :smallbiggrin:

Thantos
2007-11-07, 11:03 PM
I see both of those differently then you do then. I see the sentinal as I hurt you when you hurt me, and the wind warrior seems to me more of Movement based than number of attacks. But that is a good concern. I kinda wanted something a whole lot more TWFing freindly, and I see TWFing all about getting as many attacks as possible.

This may seem way out of the blue but have you ever played Tales Of Symphonia for both the PS2 and the GameCube?

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-07, 11:15 PM
I see both of those differently then you do then. I see the sentinal as I hurt you when you hurt me, and the wind warrior seems to me more of Movement based than number of attacks. But that is a good concern. I kinda wanted something a whole lot more TWFing freindly, and I see TWFing all about getting as many attacks as possible.

Eh...I'm still uncomfortable with it. To me, TWF is built in many attacks and acts as one route to get it, the attraction of TWF is bonus damage. This is why many rogues are TWFers, they add tons of sneak attacks. So, I suggest going in that direction (not sneak attack though). Maybe something like rend but not (which is what your Second Slash ability is. So, go off of that with a series of "in addition to your Second Slash damage, do X" and have X be ability damage, conditions and debuffs. Also, you could have an ability that allows you to attack with multiple weapons with a standard action.


This may seem way out of the blue but have you ever played Tales Of Symphonia for both the PS2 and the GameCube?
Nope, why do you ask?

Thantos
2007-11-07, 11:20 PM
Hmm That sounds interesting. I find it almost funny that the one thing that I thought would be over powerfull seems to be your favorite part, and that is the Second SLash. Although I think I am pulling a blank on a TWFing class. I think that maybe we need a third oppion on all this, what do you think?

Oh and There is a character in that game that has an interesting style for Twf, specificly a single specail move. Do you have Complete Warrior? Because the move is very much like the Dervish's Thousand Cuts.

Rogue 7
2007-11-07, 11:25 PM
Lloyd's Sword Rain move?

Thantos
2007-11-07, 11:28 PM
Yep that is the one. So do you have any Ideas for a TWF master?

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-07, 11:29 PM
Hmm That sounds interesting. I find it almost funny that the one thing that I thought would be over powerfull seems to be your favorite part, and that is the Second SLash. Although I think I am pulling a blank on a TWFing class. I think that maybe we need a third oppion on all this, what do you think?

Oh and There is a character in that game that has an interesting style for Twf, specificly a single specail move. Do you have Complete Warrior? Because the move is very much like the Dervish's Thousand Cuts.

You know, the more I think about it the more I think this should be a definite TWF style, no indirectness, just out in the open bonuses to TWFing. If you want a THW warrior, go Dragon Scholar or Mountain Protector, they just fit better. If we get that out of the way, it opens up a whole slew of possibilities.

I don't have CW with me at college :smallfrown: any chance of slipping it to me?

Hey Rogue 7!! *grabs the unexpecting victim* We need a third opinion! *nudge nudge*

Thantos
2007-11-07, 11:32 PM
I would Love to but sadly it isn't mine to slip.

Rogue 7
2007-11-07, 11:42 PM
I'm not really in any position to judge balance at all (Haven't played enough), but my main suggestion would be that if this is a TWF class, give it the TWF feats! That or a couple fighter bonus feats. Other than that, I think it looks solid- dealing a lot of attacks is fun in my mind, but the bonus damage progression is really weak. Follow-up attack makes it so that it'll always be dealing a lot of attacks, which is a good thing. I haven't looked at the Air Martial Artist (been focusing on my Teammate's Dragon Scholar and opposing Ocean Sentinel), so I have no idea how much it steps on that guy's toes.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-07, 11:53 PM
Sorry, I just had too:
The combatant enters the forum, his expression is blank. He stands firm and tall, proud of the many medals he has won. His family all but forgotten, he wears his vengeance in hundreds of tattoos, each unique to the fire nation soldier he scribed it for; each soldier he has defeated in battle. This warrior is a paragon of the fighting style of the Southern Water Tribe, a master of masters and one to be feared. As the hunt begins he lowers his head in reverence of his opponent, asking the spirits to make his enemies' death quick and as painless as possible. He then attacks with all too familiar sadness, destroying his opponent without mercy....
The pursued Rouge 7 runs from the hunter, yet to no avail, with every step the Ocean Sentinel elite unleashes a fury of clubings until he can take no more, reluctantly offering his opinion to the forum goers...

On topic: see Thantos? TWFing is the way to go, put in TWF feats then add in the penalty reductions from the Bloodclaw Master PrC in Tob. Also, add a feature that is effectively Oversized TWFing.

Rogue 7
2007-11-07, 11:58 PM
Whiskey...

Tango....

Foxtrot....

What was with that?

Though perhaps I missed Thantos's purpose- if this wasn't designed as a TWF class, I'd make it straight Fighter Bonus feats (though not as many, obviously.)

Thantos
2007-11-08, 12:03 AM
I don't have TOB. :smallfrown:

I don't think I get what you mean Rogue.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-08, 12:09 AM
I don't have TOB. :smallfrown:

I don't think I get what you mean Rogue.

Awww...great book, don't listen to those how say otherwise and to those "ToB is anime and ruining D&D" guys, fluff is the easiest thing to change so that argument is just bull***.

Anyway...
If you don't already know, Tiger Claw is the TWFing discipline and Bloodclaw Master is its PrC. It removes the -2 penalty from TWFing with Tiger Claw weapons (which are all light) at 2nd level then it grants a rend which is what Second Slash is except that ability is rend on crack!! (since it goes off multiple times).

Rogue 7
2007-11-08, 12:16 AM
If you thought up this class with TWF in mind, then I'd say go ahead and give the TWF feats. If you didn't, it's no problem.

Ceiling009
2007-11-08, 01:37 AM
While I always seems to a dissident to a lot of ideas, in fact I'm in that camp right now with Tiger Blade... I'd really like it more if it stayed away the Wind Warrior multiple attacks thing, while still retaining a real open friendliness to TWF... but really be passionate over all with Slashing Weapons. I'd really prefer it to be the quintessential sword, dagger, sharp slashing weapon style.

I love Second Slash, but as Lord Tartarus did suggest that you add effects in lieu of damage later, that would be pretty awesome...Or not... I'm kinda torn about it as I think about it... though since... it's rend on crack... that's crazy. I think I'll deal with it.

Suprising Draw... I don't like so much, as is, but I think it should be like Strike with no Thought from Oriental Adventures, and build precedent for Master of the Claw, basically you make one attack (full round if standing, and not have your weapon drawn or you can time it with a charge) with Surprising Draw, and you treat the opponent flat-footed for it... You should be able to charge with it too...
Greater Surprising Draw... Change it to a standard action, so you can at least walk (run) up and then do it. Then it should even work with Spring Attack.
Swinging Blades, Whirling Blades are really good; I like a lot, While Chopping Fists is doable from a feat in the PHBII... It's a good utility to include so you don't have to go book hunting... and Quick Draw is very important.

Though you might want a quick putting away of your weapon too. So that you can capitalize on Surprising Draw more. Or not, it's really up to you. It just might make everything else a little less worthwhile.

Pounce is cool, though the Barbarian can already get it at level 1... check out complete champion... It's good, and it actually lets you use even your off hands... while Two Weapon Pounce from PHBII does too... though Pounce is better. Whirlwind attack is good.

Now Final Strike... this one is a toughie to me... cause even though as it is it adds more attacks, it just doesn't sit right with me about it... I'd really like it if it added either more damage or did a rather nasty effect. First I think it should basically double your str or dex damage by spending a ki point... it doesn't double anything else, but it's an auto double for stat based damage, which in most cases is about on par or lower than dice being rolled. So for one Ki point, I think it's worthwhile enough...

Greater Final Strike this one should be worth almost 2... but could feasibly cost 1, or be an additional 1... instead of doubling your stat based damage, it could force a save or effect; my opinion would be stunned... but I could easily see it go to unconscious. I think... actually; it would be much simpler to make the strike actually deal no damage, but force a massive damage save.

As for the capstone, I like it. But I would love if you could make it that you could strike more than one opponent, basically be able to whirlwind attack with it... Like instead of saying against one target, It should be "As a swift action, you may spend up to 3 ki points, so that until the start of your next turn all attacks you make against any opponents consider them flat footed, unless they have uncanny dodge or blind sense (sight)." So that even attack of opportunities are good. This dude or dudette would be one hell of a swordsman.

Though Not sure if it would walk on the Dragon Scholar's toes any... I need to read each again to remember. Also, I think it's time that the Barbarian Get some Ki Point lovin'... make rage a ki point ability... and probably spruce him up a bit...

Thantos
2007-11-08, 09:05 AM
Suprising Draw... I don't like so much, as is, but I think it should be like Strike with no Thought from Oriental Adventures, and build precedent for Master of the Claw, basically you make one attack (full round if standing, and not have your weapon drawn or you can time it with a charge) with Surprising Draw, and you treat the opponent flat-footed for it... You should be able to charge with it too...
Greater Surprising Draw... Change it to a standard action, so you can at least walk (run) up and then do it. Then it should even work with Spring Attack.

I don't think most of you get that it is a free action Just like Ouick draw. So you can draw/attack and then have a full attack with it.

Edit: did a small edit to the class changed the name of the capstone and did what Ceiling said would be cool.

Lakoda
2007-11-08, 10:02 AM
I think I'm confused... We we looking for weapon style based classes to fit into the MA framework or for a Fighter variant type of thing?

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-08, 10:24 AM
I think I'm confused... We we looking for weapon style based classes to fit into the MA framework or for a Fighter variant type of thing?

Both? Though a weapon style is going to look like a fighter variant.

THantos - FIX TEH SPELINGZ ERORZ!

The grammer of the capstone is pretty bad, you need to rewrite that, but I think its ok. I'm still uncomfortable about all the extra attack stuff. Hawk-Eye Sniper gets swift action attacks, but that's because they need a lot of full-round attacks with only 1 shot.

With Quick Draw, drawing and sheathing your weapon is a free action, by the way.

Right now we have two votes to make this style not use extra attacks, just focus on the natural extra attacks from TWFing and give the rend on crack.

Over course, all those extra attacks will make the Second Slash overpowered. With TWFing, its a little powerful but within reason, but if you go attack crazy its too much. Plus, if you really wanted extra attacks, you could dip into Wind Warrior and your Second Slash damage won't get as big, balancing it out a bit.

Lakoda
2007-11-08, 10:37 AM
Your Tiger Claw has a great concept, I like it a lot.


Wepon Profecentcies: A Tiger blade is profecent with the dager(regular and Punching), Handaxe, Short Sword, Battle Axe Scimitar, Longsword, Greatsword, Greataxe, Kama, Tiger Head Hook Swords (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57913)and Bastard Sword(Martial version). Tiger Blade are Profecent with Light armors, but not sheilds. I'm on the fense about the punching dagger, I can see it and at the same time I can't - to looks visually like a claw when wielded, but it isn't really used to slash, which breaks the paradigm. Food for thought, it's your baby so you decide.


Second Slash: A Tiger blade Learns to hit an older wound to do more damage. When makeing an attack on a target that they have already hit and done damage to this turn, they may do an extra +xd4 damage. This extra damage doesn't affect non-livilng creatures/objects, or those imune to critical hits. This is probably the biggest sticking point for me; I don't really like the fluff here (sorry :smalleek: ) and it is a rogue ability (scaled down). I would be more comfortable with the mechanic if I could get into the fluff more and if Str & Dex weren't combined for Atk and Dmg.


Ouick Draw: A Tiger Blade Gains Quick Draw as a bonus feat, even if they do not met the requirements.Great, it leads up to the capstone very nicely.


Chopping Fists: By mastering the way he strikes, a Tiger blade may treat his Unarmed strikes as Slashing for the purpuses of Class features and bypassing Damage reduction. How many things have DR x/slashing? This might be underpowered - I like the idea a lot.


Swinging Blades: Through intencse training to have control over their blade, a Tiger Blade learns to change direction of the blade adn perform Dextorous acts with his blade. A slashing master aplies his dexterity modifier to all attack roles in addition to their strength modifier. This only works with a slashing weapon and when wearing light or no armor and only carring a light load. I don't like the Dex plus Str mechanic at all - if you want to give a flat boost to dmg (which should really cost ki for # of rounds = to wis mod or something) make provide the bonus (+2@3rd, +3@7th, +4@11th, +5@15th & +6@19th) .


Pounce: By continually moving his blades, a Tiger Blade may make a full round attack at the end of a charge. This works just like the monster ablity of the same name. This cost 1 ki per round used, and can only be done with slashing weapons. Great ability.


Surprising Draw: To prepare for the inevitable ambush, Tiger Blade learn to draw and attack at the same time. To do so costs 1 ki and all attacks take a -2 to hit which last until the start of their next turn. This only works with a slashing weapon and when wearing Light or no armor and only carring a light load. Awesome, I really like this - the fluff works with the mechanic beautifully!


Whirlwind Attack: A Tiger Blade gains whirlwind attack as a bonus feat, even if they do not met the requirements.A good addition, fluff it up so it makes sense why they can ignore them.


Final Strike: By learnign to follow through on his attacks a Tiger Blade can make an extra attack in a full round action, however only if they hit with all other attacks. This attack is at their Highest Attack bonus, and cost 2 ki to use. Is it with the main hand or the off hand if dual wielding? Good addition, I could even see going to 1 ki point for the cost, the requirement of landing all others it a good too. Also, when is this declared? At the beginning of the first attack or after the last normal one?


Whirling Blades: Because of their continual training Tiger Blades can expanded their finesse to do more damage. A Tiger blade may apply their Dexterity modifier in addition to the strength modifier. This only works with a slashing weapon and when wearing Light or no armor and only carring a light load.Str plus Dex again, concider the same thing as I said before. Coupled with Weapon Focus/Specialization this stuff could get out of hand, even with flat bonuses.


Greater Surprising Draw: As Surprising Draw except only -2 to attacks durring their turn. Good continuation of the line ... shouldn't this be Improved Surprising Draw (doesn't it go normal, Improved, Greater?) You could add another ability and call it Greater SD and have the -2 only apply to the first attack (for each hand).


Greater Final Strike: As Final Strike except for two additional attackes instead of one both at the highest attack bonus.Same question, with which hand? First with main second with off? Both with main or both with off? Just looking for clarification. If you do drop the normal Final Strike to 1 ki point, I would make this one cost 2. Greater should probably be improved.


Master of the Claw: By continually moving and weaving their blade, a Tiger blade learns to strike where it is least excected. This allows them to all attacks as if they are flat-footed until the Tiger Blades nest turn. This cost 3 ki and works with Final strike and Greater Final strike.Great cap stone ability! Does this also work with the the Surprising Draw line of abilities?

------

This is definitely the sort of class I'd love to play ... especially b/c I like tigers so much! Get it polish it up and lets get some battle tests underway!

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-08, 10:51 AM
On the punching dagger issue, I think there is a weapon in A&E guide that's called Panther Claw or something that would be a great replacement. Unfortunately, I don't have that with me and crystalkeep doesn't list it.

Lakoda brings up a good point about the Dex to damage. Dragon Scholar gets away with it because its a mental stat, but two physical stats together is very powerful. Go with the 1 Ki cost and wisdom mod rounds.

Oh and Rogue, I hate how they made that barbarian variant, I always homebrew it so that you don't get fast movement, but you don't get pounce until 6th level, so if you really want it you need to take barbarian up to 6.

Edit: also, get some more fluff in there like Lakoda said, I'll try to get most of the Hawk-Eye Sniper's fluff up as well. Remember that the basis of all of these styles is learning from and emulating an element or animal to create a philosophy of combat.

Lakoda
2007-11-08, 11:03 AM
Edit: also, get some more fluff in there like Lakoda said, I'll try to get most of the Hawk-Eye Sniper's fluff up as well. Remember that the basis of all of these styles is learning from and emulating an element or animal to create a philosophy of combat.

Unfortunately for Thantos there isn't really a direct analog for this in Avatar. At least with the sniper (and the other MA styles) and the benders we have an at least an episode or two to go with them, so we can make assumptions about the fluff. Do this without episodes (or any real clear fluff to guide you) isn't easy, so thanks for being the first victim Thantos. :smallcool:

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-08, 11:11 AM
Unfortunately for Thantos there isn't really a direct analog for this in Avatar. At least with the sniper (and the other MA styles) and the benders we have an at least an episode or two to go with them, so we can make assumptions about the fluff. Do this without episodes (or any real clear fluff to guide you) isn't easy, so thanks for being the first victim Thantos. :smallcool:

Right, we have left the directly from avatar to assumptions at this point.

Uthug
2007-11-08, 12:08 PM
What about a style based on Praying Mantis kung fu that involves deflecting opponent's attacks to get in precise attacks?

Lakoda
2007-11-08, 12:12 PM
So like something were every strike is a riposte (I know it is a fencing term, but it gets my meaning across ... I hope). So only counter attacks, no direct attacks...could be cool.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-08, 12:13 PM
So like something were every strike is a riposte (I know it is a fencing term, but it gets my meaning across ... I hope). So only counter attacks, no direct attacks...could be cool.

Sort of like the Ocean Sentinel? Combine that with Dragon Scholar and there you go. We've got the precise strike and the counte-er.

Lakoda
2007-11-08, 12:31 PM
Sort of like the Ocean Sentinel? Combine that with Dragon Scholar and there you go. We've got the precise strike and the counte-er.

That works...I was thinking of something a little more extreme...

No attacks (not even OoA, unless it is a obvious hostile action directed at you, like casting), you can only take move actions (or equivalent) on your turn. If you do a move you only get 1 counter attack. You get to make a number of counter attacks per turn equal to your number of attacks per round. You can spend 1 ki (only once per turn) to increase this. You get to attack immediately after anyone attacks you ... each one at full attack - 2 (to compensate for possibly missing attacks). As you level you would get abilities to double strike in a counter attack and eventually use counter attack when an ally is attacked.

But this may not work as well in practice as in my head. Thoughts? Should I built this tonight?

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-08, 12:34 PM
That works...I was thinking of something a little more extreme...

No attacks (not even OoA, unless it is a obvious hostile action directed at you, like casting), you can only take move actions (or equivalent) on your turn. If you do a move you only get 1 counter attack. You get to make a number of counter attacks per turn equal to your number of attacks per round. You can spend 1 ki (only once per turn) to increase this. You get to attack immediately after anyone attacks you ... each one at full attack - 2 (to compensate for possibly missing attacks). As you level you would get abilities to double strike in a counter attack and eventually use counter attack when an ally is attacked.

But this may not work as well in practice as in my head. Thoughts? Should I built this tonight?

The problem with this is your opponent would ignore you and attack your allies, then use range against you. If all you do is run up to some one and not attack, your not much of a threat.

Lakoda
2007-11-08, 12:41 PM
exactly ....

thanks, I probably wouldn't have thought of that until after I was done, would have been a big waste of time.

Partysan
2007-11-08, 04:17 PM
I was a bit bored, so I decided to make a weapon style. It's mostly based on real fighting (I'm doing a bit WMA) but more cinematic.
It is a kind of weapon master with a bit of counter attacking (I decided against basing it on AoOs so it doesn't get into conflict with the Ocean Sentinel) and a bit of flatfooting (quite effective when the class defense bonus is a dodge bonus). The intelligence stuff may come in conflict with the Dragon Scholar, but it could be changed into wisdom. Changed it. However Intelligence fits the fluff better imo.

Have you ever encountered one of these fencers? They stand still in a ready fighting position and if you try to attack them they erspond with a flick of their weapon, driving you back wounded and then they return to their stance with a fluid move. I fought one of these and try to learn to fight like that. It works surprisingly good.

Mantis Blade Fencer
Defense is the best attack.
{table=head]Level|Special|Defense Bonus

1st|Combat Expertise; Calm Stance|
+4

2nd|Cunning Side Step|
+4

3rd|Calm Stance (Technique +2)|
+5

4th|Uncanny Dodge; Deflect Arrows|
+5

5th|Calm Stance (Clarity +2)|
+5

6th|Counterstrike|
+6

7th|Calm Stance (Accuracy +2)|
+6

8th|Improved Uncanny Dodge; Deflect Bending|
+6

9th|Calm Stance (Technique +3)|
+7

10th|Measured Wielding|
+7

11th|Calm Stance (Clarity +3)|
+7

12th|Improved Counterstrike|
+8

13th|Calm Stance (Accuracy +3)|
+8

14th|Wall of Blades|
+8

15th|Calm Stance (Technique +4)|
+9

16th|Always Ready|
+9

17th|Calm Stance (Clarity +4)|
+9

18th|Greater Counterstrike|
+10

19th|Calm Stance (Accuracy +4)|
+10

20th|Master of the 3rd Chi|
+10

[/table]

Proficiencies: A Mantis Blade Fencer is proficient with the longsword, bastard sword, greatsword, shortspear, longspear, naginata, glaive ...
(basically all weapons that allow proper parrying, so mostly no axes etc)

Calm Stance: Instead of charging or striking the air with ferocity a Mantis Blade Fencer remains calm and ready, only waiting for the enemy to open his defense.
As long as the Mantis Blade Fencer is focused, (meaning having his weapon drawn (or the Quick Draw feat), not running and not beeing blinded, confused, cowering, dazed, entangled, exhausted, fascinated, flat-footed, frightened, helpless, nauseated, panicked, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, unconscious, disabled, dying or dead) he does get some points of his wisdom modifier (if any) as a competence bonus to his attack rolls (Technique), reflex and will saving throws (Clarity) and damage (Accuracy), up to a given maximum of points. At level 1 this maximum equals 1.

Cunning Sidestep: A Mantis Blade Fencer is always ready to punish those that run blindly into his blades.
If a Mantis Blade Fencer makes an attack of opportunity against a charging opponent he is considered having a weapon readied against the charge.

Uncanny Dodge: Even a Mantis Blade Fencer cannot always be ready but he knows how to react when caught unprepared.
At 4th level a Mantis Blade Fencer retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.

Deflect Arrows: The fast reactions and special techniques of the Mantis style allow the Mantis Blade Fencer to strike projectiles out of the air before hitting him, if he knows where the shot will hit.
If the Mantis Blade Fencer is would be struck by a ranged attack and is aware of the danger he can make an attack roll opposed to that of the ranged attacker. If he succeeds, he takes no damage.
The use of this ability costs 1 Ki point per projectile deflected.

Counterstrike: The most dangerous talent of the Mantis Blade Fencer is to parry an enemy strike and using the open spot to hit.
When struck by a melee attack the Mantis Blade Fencer may make an attack roll as an immediate (so only once per round) action that doesn't provoke attacks of Opportunity. If his attack roll exceeds the roll of the attacker, he the attack misses and he hits the attacker (he still has to penetrate AC to deal damage).
The use of this ability costs 2 Ki points.
look at this: http://youtube.com/watch?v=Kj4Ng6DBfrg

Improved Uncanny Dodge: A practitioner of the Manti style learns how to react to attacks coming from different sides and will use clever positioning and special parrying techniques to protect his backside.
At 8th level a Mantis Blade Fencer can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the Mantis Blade Fancer by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has Mantis Blade Fencer levels.

Deflect Bending: In a world full of elemental benders even a mundane fighter has to learn how to defend against elemental attacks.
A Mantis Blade Fencer can deflect Bending attacks only with his weapons. He uses the normal rules for deflecting bending attacks, but can only deflect attacks that require an attack roll and are targeted on him.
The use of this ability costs 3 Ki point per projectile deflected.
Inspired by prince Zuko in Zuko Alone deflecting earth blasts with his sword.

Measured Wielding: By clever footwork and special grip techniques the Mantis Blade Fencer can wield a normal weapon as if it had reach and can attack adjacent fields with a reach weapon (basically as if he was wielding a spiked chain).

Improved Counterstrike: Most opponents are sure to hit until their attack is deflected by some astonishing move and they see a blade nearing...
If the Mantis Blade Fencer successfully counters an attack the opponent is flatfooted against the counterattack.
The use of this ability costs 2 Ki points.

Wall of Blades: An advanced technique of the Mantis style lets the fencer parry, dodge and deflect any blows coming round him while totally forsaking his offense but counter attacks.
If the Mantis Blade Fencer loweres his attack bonus via Combat Expertise to get an AC bonus the penalty on attack rolls does not apply on counter strikes or deflect attempts.

Always Ready: A Mantis Blade Fencer always has to think faster than their opponents to read them and react to them.
At the cost of 2 Ki points the Mantis Blade Fencer can highten his initiative by 2 points of Initiative per Ki point spent (he may voluntary spend more than 2 Ki points)

Greater Counterstrike: When an opponent is driven back by a counter the Mantis Blade Fencer quickly retreats to adapt his stance again.
After a successful counterstrike (it doesn't have to hit, only the parrying must succeed) the Mantis Blade Fencer can make a free 5 foot step.
The use of this ability costs 2 Ki points.

Master of the 3rd Chi: The perfection in movement combined with the eternal patience of a master of the Mantis style can drive an opponent insane by neglecting each of his attemts to hit. The unnerving calm of the Mantis Blade Master frightens his opponents more than any wild attacks ever could.
Every time an opponent misses the Mantis Blade Fencer in combat wether due to a counter or a low attack roll he gets a -1 morale penalty on further attack rolls against the fencer. These penalties stack, so 3 misses would impose a -3 penalty. The penalties end, if the opponent deals damage to the fencer (new misses impose new penalties) or at the end of the encounter.
If the penalty reaches 1/4 of the opponents BAB, the opponent is shaken, if they reach 1/2 he is fatigued. At 3/4 he gets exhausted and if the penalty reaches the BAB the opponent cowers. A will saving throw negates these effects, but not the penalty. The DC is (15+penalty imposed+MBF's ChaMod).
A Mantis Blade Fencer has to expend 3 Ki points to activate this ability and it lasts for a number of rounds equal to twice his wisdom modificator.


EDIT: WTF?!?!?!? WHILE I WAS ACTUALLY WRITING THIS SOMEONE SUGGESTED IT?!
they're watching me *shudder*

Lakoda
2007-11-08, 04:33 PM
Nice, I like this a lot...the cap stone has a bit too much math for me though. Wall of blades is awesome!

When you say "parry" you are referring to?...have a higher counter-attack roll then your opponents attack role (regardless of AC values)? Just to clarify.

I'm a little uneasy about deflect bending, I get what you are doing but so many types of bending couldn't be stopped by an object.

I don't really get Measured Wielding, more fluff might help me.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-08, 04:39 PM
Proficiencies: A Mantis Blade Fencer is proficient with the dagger, shortsword, longsword, bastard sword, greatsword, shortspear, longspear, naginata, glaive ...
(basically all weapons that allow proper parrying, so mostly no axes etc)Actually, from the rest of the class, I would not include the dagger and possible the short sword, it just doesn't seem to fit for some reason...


Calm Stance: Instead of charging or striking the air with ferocity a Mantis Blade Fencer remains calm and ready, only waiting for the enemy to open his defense.
As long as the Mantis Blade Fencer is focused, (meaning having his weapon drawn (or the Quick Draw feat), not running and not beeing blinded, confused, cowering, dazed, entangled, exhausted, fascinated, flat-footed, frightened, helpless, nauseated, panicked, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, unconscious, disabled, dying or dead) he does get some points of his intelligence modifier (if any) as a competence bonus to his attack rolls (Technique), reflex and will saving throws (Clarity) and damage (Accuracy), up to a given maximum of points. At level 1 this maximum equals 1.Decent mechanic, no problem here.


Cunning Sidestep: A Mantis Blade Fencer is always ready to punish those that run blindly into his blades.
If a Mantis Blade Fencer makes an attack of opportunity against a charging opponent he is considered having a weapon readied against the charge.I like it, but I think it is granted too early, I'd say grant it around 5-9 or so.


Uncanny Dodge: Even a Mantis Blade Fencer cannot always be ready but he knows how to react when caught unprepared.
At 4th level a Mantis Blade Fencer retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.Standard.


Deflect Arrows: The fast reactions and special techniques of the Mantis style allow the Mantis Blade Fencer to strike projectiles out of the air before hitting him, if he knows where the shot will hit.
If the Mantis Blade Fencer is would be struck by a ranged attack and is aware of the danger he can make an attack roll opposed to that of the ranged attacker. If he succeeds, he takes no damage.
The use of this ability costs 1 Ki point per projectile deflected.A good ability, though my only concern is that a good Hawk-Eye Sniper will be a bit too powerful except on swift shots for this to work, but maybe that's no all bad...


Counterstrike: The most dangerous talent of the Mantis Blade Fencer is to parry an enemy strike and using the open spot to hit.
When struck by a melee attack the Mantis Blade Fencer may make an attack roll as an immediate (so only once per round) action that doesn't provoke attacks of Opportunity. If his attack roll exceeds the roll of the attacker, he the attack misses and he hits the attacker (he still has to penetrate AC to deal damage).
look at this: http://youtube.com/watch?v=Kj4Ng6DBfrg
The video probably made me like this more (I like realistic stuff) so I don't think it steps on the Ocean Sentinel's toes much. Though I'd add a Ki cost, this style doesn't have many Ki cost abilities so it should be fine.


Improved Uncanny Dodge: A practitioner of the Manti style learns how to react to attacks coming from different sides and will use clever positioning and special parrying techniques to protect his backside.
At 8th level a Mantis Blade Fencer can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the Mantis Blade Fancer by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has Mantis Blade Fencer levels. Standard.


Deflect Bending: In a world full of elemental benders even a mundane fighter has to learn how to defend against elemental attacks.
A Mantis Blade Fancer can deflect Bending attacks only with his weapons. He uses the normal rules for deflecting bending attacks.
The use of this ability costs 3 Ki point per projectile deflected.
Inspired by prince Zuko in Zuko Alone deflecting earth blasts with his sword.
I like this a lot and the cost is high enough that it still gives benders an edge.
Edit: Wait, you need to modify this a bit since Deflect Bending allows you to deflect any bending within 10ft, I suggest something like the Craftsmanship bonus Deflect on shields that only works against stuff targeting you.


Measured Wielding: By clever footwork and special grip techniques the Mantis Blade Fencer can wield a normal weapon as if it had reach and can attack adjacent fields with a reach weapon (basically as if he was wielding a spiked chain).
Hm..I'm a little questionable on this one. Wait...ok I reread it and I guess its fine, it basically turns all weapons into threatening adjacent and reach squares, fine.


Improved Counterstrike: Most opponents are sure to hit until their attack is deflected by some astonishing move and they see a blade nearing...
If the Mantis Blade Fencer successfully counters an attack the opponent is flatfooted against the counterattack.
Sure, just add the Ki cost like I said before.


Wall of Blades: An advanced technique of the Mantis style lets the fencer parry, dodge and deflect any blows coming round him while totally forsaking his offense but counter attacks.
If the Mantis Blade Fencer loweres his attack bonus via Combat Expertise to get an AC bonus the penalty on attack rolls does not apply on counter strikes or deflect attempts.
Fine.


Always Ready: A Mantis Blade Fencer always has to think faster than their opponents to read them and react to them.
At the cost of 2 Ki points the Mantis Blade Fencer can highten his initiative by 2 points/Ki point spent (he may voluntary spend more than 2)
Wait, is this a 1 for 1 or 2 for 1 or 1 for 2 increase? If its 2 init for 1 Ki sure, but limit it to no more than 1/4 or 1/2 your level increase.


Greater Counterstrike: When an opponent is driven back by a counter the Mantis Blade Fencer quickly retreats to adapt his stance again.
After a successful counterstrike (it doesn't have to hit, only the parrying must succeed) the Mantis Blade Fencer can make a free 5 foot step.
Same as I said before on improved.


Unnerving Calm: The perfection in movement combined with the eternal patience of a master of the Mantis style can drive an opponent insane by neglecting each of his attemts to hit.
Every time an opponent misses the Mantis Blade Fencer in combat wether due to a counter or a low attack roll he gets a -1 morale penalty on further attack rolls against the fencer. These penalties stack, so 3 misses would impose a -3 penalty. The penalties end, if the opponent deals damage to the fencer (new misses impose new penalties) or at the end of the encounter.
If the penalty reaches 1/4 of the opponents BAB, the opponent is shaken, if they reach 1/2 he is fatigued. At 3/4 he falls insane and if the penalty reaches the BAB the opponent cowers. A will saving throw negates these effects, but not the penalty. The DC is (15+penalty imposed+MBF's ChaMod).
Hm...change name to something like "Master of the Calm" or something then add a Ki cost that lets this ability work for wis-mod rounds though effects stay for the battle and your golden.

Edit: By the way Partysan, I love your sig.

Partysan
2007-11-08, 04:46 PM
Nice, I like this a lot...the cap stone has a bit too much math for me though. Wall of blades is awesome!
Thank you. The math will not come up that often, as the opponent would have to be very unlucky or no threat at all.


When you say "parry" you are referring to?...have a higher counter-attack roll then your opponents attack role (regardless of AC values)? Just to clarify.
When I'm talking crunch it's exactly what you said. When talking fluff it just means what it is ;-)


I'm a little uneasy about deflect bending, I get what you are doing but so many types of bending couldn't be stopped by an object.
Maybe I should the text so it does apply only to the "blast" bending seeds?


I don't really get Measured Wielding, more fluff might help me.
I know that the name should be changed, but I'm not that creative about naming abilities. It just means that you adjust your reach by gripping a reach weapon higher at the grip to attack at short range (like the Short Haft feat) or that you lunge forward with a normal weapon to strike into an area you couldn't normally reach (giving it reach, but not making you unable to attack adjacent squares).
Basically both do the same: they give you reach AND the ability to attack adjacent squares - just as you can do with a spiked chain.

Rogue 7
2007-11-08, 04:50 PM
Something I noticed while planning out the strategies for the featherweight battle- the martial artists have zero ranged weapon proficiencies. Are they familiar with all simple weapons, or just the ones listed? If not, that's a fairly significant hampering in my mind. Simple throwing weapon proficiency would make sense, wouldn't it, particularly if this environment disallows crossbows. The idea of an ocean warrior with a javelin, or a wind warrior with a sling, appeals to me, moreso than just the boomerang the ocean sentinel gets. Right now the elemental classes have no ability to strike at range, which is a serious problem, I think.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-08, 04:54 PM
Something I noticed while planning out the strategies for the featherweight battle- the martial artists have zero ranged weapon proficiencies. Are they familiar with all simple weapons, or just the ones listed? If not, that's a fairly significant hampering in my mind. Simple throwing weapon proficiency would make sense, wouldn't it, particularly if this environment disallows crossbows. The idea of an ocean warrior with a javelin, or a wind warrior with a sling, appeals to me, moreso than just the boomerang the ocean sentinel gets. Right now the elemental classes have no ability to strike at range, which is a serious problem, I think.

If you want range, go with Hawk-Eye Sniper or take the few throwing weapons the other's get. Of course, you could take the feat to gain one of those weapons...But really, the abilities don't work with range for most of the Martial Artists. As for crossbows, the Chinese invented the first crossbow and repeating crossbow far earlier than anyone else. So I would say repeating crossbows and to a lesser extent normal crossbows would be quite common, though they would be light crossbows, not heavy.

Edit: And what's wrong with a Wind Warrior with Far Shot and Quick Draw flinging daggers all over the place?

Partysan
2007-11-08, 04:56 PM
sorry for the double post but the input keeps coming faster than my answers... lucky man I am


Actually, from the rest of the class, I would not include the dagger and possible the short sword, it just doesn't seem to fit for some reason...
Granted.


The video probably made me like this more (I like realistic stuff) so I don't think it steps on the Ocean Sentinel's toes much. Though I'd add a Ki cost, this style doesn't have many Ki cost abilities so it should be fine.
I have a good list of youtube videos regarding sword fencing...
omg, I totally forgot the Ki cost. I planned to have one, but while thinking about a capstone I just didn't add it anymore.


Wait, is this a 1 for 1 or 2 for 1 or 1 for 2 increase? If its 2 init for 1 Ki sure, but limit it to no more than 1/4 or 1/2 your level increase.
It's 2 Ini for 1 Ki. I'll include the limit.


Hm...change name to something like "Master of the Calm" or something then add a Ki cost that lets this ability work for wis-mod rounds though effects stay for the battle and your golden.
No problem with the name, but now using the wisdom mod adds a bit too much MAD I think. He's gonna want Str, Dex and Con fo being a melee fighter and he need Int for Calm Stance, the save for the Capstone is Cha based, and now the duration on wis? That's way too much, all six abilities...

Lakoda
2007-11-08, 04:57 PM
I know that the name should be changed, but I'm not that creative about naming abilities. It just means that you adjust your reach by gripping a reach weapon higher at the grip to attack at short range (like the Short Haft feat) or that you lunge forward with a normal weapon to strike into an area you couldn't normally reach (giving it reach, but not making you unable to attack adjacent squares).
Basically both do the same: they give you reach AND the ability to attack adjacent squares - just as you can do with a spiked chain.

That I get... works for me, and would be very nice to have.



As for the wis mod # of rounds... as a cap stone ability it would be acceptable (I think) to hard code a value (like 2 or 4 or 6 rounds, what ever ya all like). I do get the concern for too many skills needing positive modifiers though.

Darkbane
2007-11-08, 04:58 PM
Question: When do you use Always Ready? When you roll for initiative, or can you use it at any time to move up in the init. order?
Also, I don't like a penalty of 3/4 BAB causing the target to go insane. I'd probably change that to shaken, fatigued, exhausted, unconcious.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-08, 04:59 PM
The more I think about it, the more Calm Stance screams wisdom, not intelligence. If you really want intelligence, dip Dragon Scholar. That way you aren't any more mad then everything else (except possibly Hawk-Eye).

Edit: Darkbane is right, insane is too much (by the way, did you get that from my Master of Inaction feat?) I'd have the 3/4 BAB cause exhuasted but nothing beyond.

Partysan
2007-11-08, 05:08 PM
The more I think about it, the more Calm Stance screams wisdom, not intelligence. If you really want intelligence, dip Dragon Scholar.
I know that someone would say that, but as I do that style myself and have a fairly high intelligence and a quite low wisdom score I just don't like it...
It is more the wit than the wisdom...


Question: When do you use Always Ready? When you roll for initiative, or can you use it at any time to move up in the init. order?
Good question. I'd allow both, but if you could do the first, why use the latter?


Also, I don't like a penalty of 3/4 BAB causing the target to go insane. I'd probably change that to shaken, fatigued, exhausted, unconcious.
Shaken and fatigued are already included and I can picture someone berserking around out of desperation quite good. Exhausted is too little psychological to come from a morale bonus and too strong to come from some desperate attacks that are deflected. They would have to fight for hours.

EDIT: yes, the idea to use the insane condition comes from that feat, although the rest is mine...

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-08, 05:15 PM
EDIT: yes, the idea to use the insane condition comes from that feat, although the rest is mine...

:biggrin:

Though, seriously, that feat is very powerful and is only usable 2/day. This is usable a lot more often and you're damaging your opponent and fully able to do stuff. The balancing factor of Master of Inaction was you can't do anything, though you have a decent defense mechanic against direct attacks but you have to stay that way for 8 rounds minimum. This ability is a bit too powerful for insanity and a little too supernatural as well. If this was regular D&D and not Avatar, I'd give it a thumbs up, but too magic-y for this, sorry.

By the way I noticed you live in Germany, that's my favorite country (outside the US, gotta be patriotic and all) :smallbiggrin:

Partysan
2007-11-08, 05:29 PM
Though, seriously, that feat is very powerful and is only usable 2/day. This is usable a lot more often and you're damaging your opponent and fully able to do stuff. The balancing factor of Master of Inaction was you can't do anything, though you have a decent defense mechanic against direct attacks but you have to stay that way for 8 rounds minimum. This ability is a bit too powerful for insanity and a little too supernatural as well. If this was regular D&D and not Avatar, I'd give it a thumbs up, but too magic-y for this, sorry.
Ok, then lets change it. What condition shall we give it?
Though I don't think that it would come up that often, as the penalty would have to reach at least 7, but much more often 15(!!!) (it is lvl 20 at all) and it is reset every time the opponent hits.


By the way I noticed you live in Germany, that's my favorite country (outside the US, gotta be patriotic and all)
Nice of you to say that^^

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-08, 05:35 PM
Ok, then lets change it. What condition shall we give it?
Though I don't think that it would come up that often, as the penalty would have to reach at least 7, but much more often 15(!!!) (it is lvl 20 at all) and it is reset every time the opponent hits.
I'd suggest exhaustion be the highest penalty.



Nice of you to say that^^
Heh, I've got a ton of relatives over there, we've kept contact since the mid-1800s when my ancestors moved over here, kind of amazing really. Is Windsbach in Thüringen or Bayern? Goggle map makes it look like its on the boarder, my family is all southerners who like making fun of northerners :smalltongue:

Partysan
2007-11-08, 05:42 PM
Oh well, if you all think it fits, I'll use exhausted.

And Windsbach is in Bavaria/Bayern, more precise in middle Franconia/Mittelfranken.
Do your relatives play Pen&Paper of LARP too? If yes, I'd be interested in contact. ;-)

Rogue 7
2007-11-08, 05:51 PM
If you want range, go with Hawk-Eye Sniper or take the few throwing weapons the other's get. Of course, you could take the feat to gain one of those weapons...But really, the abilities don't work with range for most of the Martial Artists. As for crossbows, the Chinese invented the first crossbow and repeating crossbow far earlier than anyone else. So I would say repeating crossbows and to a lesser extent normal crossbows would be quite common, though they would be light crossbows, not heavy.

Edit: And what's wrong with a Wind Warrior with Far Shot and Quick Draw flinging daggers all over the place?

Nothing at all, really, but I find it odd that each of the 4 main martial classes have only one or 2 ranged weapons, and some don't have any. It really limits the character to close-in fighting, even against enemies you'd prefer NOT to close with. I can't think of any real base class beyond casters who doesn't have SOME ranged proficiency. Even just making 1 simple weapon per class (boomerang for ocean, crossbow for mountain, javelin for dragon, and dagger/sling for air) would give them some ranged ability. It would also leave them pretty darn helpless against anything fast-moving with ranged weapons- they can't effectively counter without a ranged weapon of their own.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-08, 05:52 PM
Irrelevant chatter w/Partysan:
Oh well, if you all think it fits, I'll use exhausted.

And Windsbach is in Bavaria/Bayern, more precise in middle Franconia/Mittelfranken.
Do your relatives play Pen&Paper of LARP too? If yes, I'd be interested in contact. ;-)

Unfortunately no. My...4th? cousins are in there 40s and currently live part time in Switzerland for work and they travel a lot. The others in Bayern are a lot older, the US die is a generation ahead (its a race!). The relatives my age live in a little town SW of Dresden on the border with Poland, a little too far.

On topic: With those changes Mantis Blade Fencer gets a stamp of approval. Tiger Blade I think needs to just cut the subliminal TWFing and just outright cater to it. Through in TWF, ITWF, GTWF, and a class feature grant TWF on a standard action a lowish level.

Edit: Alright Rogue, I'll give some ranged proficiency...

Partysan
2007-11-08, 06:01 PM
Mentioning the TWF feats, i would suggest the folowing feat fixes:

1. Using the TWF fix where TWF, ITWF and GTWF are mixed into one feat that gives you an offhand progression depending on your BAB. Same for TWD.

2. As the normal fighter is replaced by the Martial Artists allowing them to buy the fighter only feats (focus/spec/supremacy tree) for their class weapons.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-08, 06:06 PM
Mentioning the TWF feats, i would suggest the folowing feat fixes:

1. Using the TWF fix where TWF, ITWF and GTWF are mixed into one feat that gives you an offhand progression depending on your BAB. Same for TWD.
I'll suggest the indirect method by instead of actually giving the feat, make it a class feature that basically is TWFing, but allows 1 off-hand attack for each main-hand attack in any full-round or standard action attack.


2. As the normal fighter is replaced by the Martial Artists allowing them to buy the fighter only feats (focus/spec/supremacy tree) for their class weapons.

You must have missed this on the initial class description:
Weapon Strike: A Martial Artist may deal damage with a class weapon she equal to her unarmed strike damage. Additionally, a Martial Artist may take fighter-only feats as if she had fighter level equal to her Martial Artist levels.

Partysan
2007-11-08, 06:30 PM
Good idea, and yes, I missed that completely.
No ideas more from me today, but I'll work out something new...

ErrantX
2007-11-08, 07:40 PM
Weapon Strike: A Martial Artist may deal damage with a class weapon she equal to her unarmed strike damage. Additionally, a Martial Artist may take fighter-only feats as if she had fighter level equal to her Martial Artist levels.


Emphasis mine, just being your friendly neighborhood grammar nazi!

Also, for Hawk-Eye Sniper, I'd suggest including an ability that would allow the Sniper to fire even when in a threatened square.

One last point I'd make is that in the OP you should include multi-style character rules, and all that composes their rules.

This is all shaping up very well Tataraus, very good. I've been lurking because I've not had much to add, just thought I'd show some encouragement here and for your work with everyone else on the main thread about equipment bonuses. Good stuff. I can't wait for this to all get past beta and we can compile it together :D

-X

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-08, 08:05 PM
Emphasis mine, just being your friendly neighborhood grammar nazi!Thanks!


Also, for Hawk-Eye Sniper, I'd suggest including an ability that would allow the Sniper to fire even when in a threatened square.[/quite]Oops! That was supposed to be covered in Defensive Archer.

One last point I'd make is that in the OP you should include multi-style character rules, and all that composes their rules. *fixes*

[quote]This is all shaping up very well Tataraus, very good. I've been lurking because I've not had much to add, just thought I'd show some encouragement here and for your work with everyone else on the main thread about equipment bonuses. Good stuff. I can't wait for this to all get past beta and we can compile it together :D

-X
Thanks, and with the playtest underway (two more battles will start in the next two days) we're very close. Also I'm working on a PDF of all this stuff which leads me to a request for everyone:

Is anyone a good OotS-style artist who is willing to create art for the Martial Artist styles? I already have the benders that Eighth Seraph used in the main thread. If anyone's up to it, just send me a PM or post or something. Thanks!

Darkbane
2007-11-08, 10:41 PM
After reading the Lightweight Battle, clarifications on the OS's Combat Reflexes: the OS gets Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat, and it functions normally. IF the OS took Combat Reflexes before getting the bonus feat, the OS gets an additional number of AoOs equal to his/her Wis modifier. Am I reading this correctly? (Also, can the OS take Combat Reflexes after getting the bonus feat in order to add Wis mod to number of AoOs?)

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-08, 10:50 PM
Combat Reflexes: An Ocean Sentinel gains Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat. The Ocean Sentinel is not limited on the number of attacks of opportunity she may make against each opponent. If the Ocean Sentinel already has Combat Reflexes, she instead may add her wisdom modifier to her dexterity modifier for determining the number of attacks of opportunity she may make per turn. This bonus stacks with the bonus gained from Dragon Scholar.

There are three very important parts for when OS gains Combat Reflexes:

First in bold, pretty self explanatory.
Second in italics, is the part you're wondering about. Yes the OS adds wis to dex for determining # of AoOs, but only if the OS had Combat Reflexes before gaining this class ability. Some DMs may allow your 2nd level bonus to take CR to get this part of the ability.
Third underlined, This ability stacks with the same kind of ability the Dragon Scholar gets.


Also, it was requested to get a full explanation of multi-styling up on the first post. I will try to get that up soon-ish.

Edit: Also concerning recent happenings in the lightweight battle, I think OS needs to be nerfed a bit. Wave Strike could use a boost in Ki cost and Tide Strike should not allow a natural 1 to be rerolled, maybe even to the point where TS can only be used if the attack missed by 10 or less. Comments on these possible changes?

Edit2: Also, I think the penalties on the attack rolls should be increase to -4 from -2.

Ceiling009
2007-11-08, 11:51 PM
I was wondering about Tide Strike... if spent you enough ki... you could miss till you crit; especially against opponent's who AC is only hittable via crit. I'm agreed about no re-rolling nat 1's, but about the limiter... It's hard to say. I mean if you limit that you could do another attack if you missed by a margin of 10 at most, it sort of becomes a serious nerf... I think don't really limit it, but bump up the penalty to -4 or -3... Maybe limit it the margin of missing to 15? or give it some scaling to class level... I like scaling effects...

Uthug
2007-11-09, 08:35 AM
Edit: Also concerning recent happenings in the lightweight battle, I think OS needs to be nerfed a bit. Wave Strike could use a boost in Ki cost and Tide Strike should not allow a natural 1 to be rerolled, maybe even to the point where TS can only be used if the attack missed by 10 or less. Comments on these possible changes?


Nice to see that the playtest is having a good effect. I agree that Tide Strike should not allow a natural 1 to be rerolled, although it might be supposed to be used to prevent major mishaps from happening, there should be allowance for the element of luck in DnD, it wouldn't be fun if someone could hit on everything but a Nat 1, then he rolls one then gets to reroll it.
I also agree Tide Strike should be limited to use when the attack misses by 10 or less but don't really like it. A difference of 10 is a large difference, large enough to allow PCs to make up for a low roll, without allowing them to abuse it to obtain critical hits as mentioned in the previous post as crits are much more deadly using the vitality points system. Furthermore, the PCs should be fighting level appropriate encounters so they probably won't have such a situation where they are fighting something with ridiculous amounts of AC(relative to them)
However, if the second d20 roll is even lower than the first and misses, I think that whether Tide Strike can be used or not should always be based off the highest attack bonus and not the previous attack.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-09, 04:13 PM
Alright here are the proposed changes to the Ocean Sentinel:

Tide Strike is modified as such:
Tide Strike: The Ocean's tides are rhythmic and relentless, and the Sentinels reflect that. Whenever an Ocean Sentinel misses an attack by no more than 10, she may make one more attack with the same attack bonus as the missed attack except with a -4 penalty. This ability may not be used when the missed attack was a critical failure or that missed attack was a use of this ability. An Ocean Sentinel must spend 1 Ki point to use this ability.
Wave Strike now costs 2 Ki points and the extra attack has a -4 instead of -2 to the attack roll. Also a clause will be added indicating that the extra attack is not an attack of opportunity.
Greater Tide Strike does not reduce the attack penalty, but allows Tide Strike to function on a miss that missed by no more than 15.

Partysan
2007-11-09, 05:22 PM
I have now rethought the fluff and changed the modifier from intelligence to wisdom, as has been suggested.
Unnerving Calm now has to be activated and costs Ki points. I made it last for 2 times the wisdom modifier though, as it relies on the fight going on in the MBF's favor for quite a while. I hope it doesn't get too weak now.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-09, 05:52 PM
I have now rethought the fluff and changed the modifier from intelligence to wisdom, as has been suggested.
Unnerving Calm now has to be activated and costs Ki points. I made it last for 2 times the wisdom modifier though, as it relies on the fight going on in the MBF's favor for quite a while. I hope it doesn't get too weak now.

Ok, just one requirement before I give it the thumbs up and make this an official style, you need to change the name of the capstone ability to a Master of the X. X could be calm, mantis, bubbles, whatever as long as it fits the flavor.

And once you've done that...http://www.ravibrounstein.com/images/thumbs-up.jpg

Now the Tiger Blade, I think needs to be more directly TWFing as I've said numerous times, anything to say about it Thantos?

SandDemon
2007-11-09, 11:59 PM
How about some Feats that require mixing styles?

Here's just one I can think about right now, more later....

Sand Champion
Requirements: 1 level in each Mountain Protector and Wind warrior martial artist styles.
Benefit: Three benefits:

-Whenever a swift step is used, a new effect called "Sand Blast" can be used at the cost of one more ki use. This has a chance to blind anyone for 1d4 rounds in a five foot radius of the Sand Champion, Reflex DC 10 + Wisdom Modifier.

-When a critical strike is landed, a Sand Champion can expend a use of his ki to cause festering in the wound from sand. This causes -2 to all attack rolls and damage rolls until the participant rests for 8 hours or succeds a Heal Check 15. Only usable with slashing/piercing weapons.

-Sand Champions are immune to fatigue from wound damage because of the lifestyle of hardship.

What ya think?

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-10, 12:02 AM
Sand Champion
Requirements: 1 level in each Mountain Protector and Wind warrior martial artist styles.
Benefit: Three benefits:

-Whenever a swift step is used, a new effect called "Sand Blast" can be used at the cost of one more ki use. This has a chance to blind anyone for 1d4 rounds in a five foot radius of the Sand Champion, Reflex DC 10 + Wisdom Modifier.

-When a critical strike is landed, a Sand Champion can expend a use of his ki to cause festering in the wound from sand. This causes -2 to all attack rolls and damage rolls until the participant rests for 8 hours or succeds a Heal Check 15. Only usable with slashing/piercing weapons.

-Sand Champions are immune to fatigue from wound damage because of the lifestyle of hardship.

What ya think?

Hm...I don't care for the supernatural nature of the maneuvers, though I do like the idea of tactical feats for mixing styles. Just make it work by mundane means and try to get the styles work together to negate there weaknesses through this feat (like Swift Step provoking AoOs).

Thantos
2007-11-10, 01:17 AM
I will fix that now. Sorry that I haven't up till now but I have been busy with school and the playtesting a bit.

For sake of ease I will post it here in a minute.


The Tiger Blade

Tiger Blade
{table=head]Level|Special|Defense Bonus

1st|Two Weapon Fighting, Second Slash +1d4|
+2

2nd|Quick Draw, Chopping Fists|
+2

3rd|Swinging Blades|
+3

4th|Two Weapon Defense, Unarmed Damage Increase|
+3

5th|Pounce|
+3

6th|Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Second Slash +2d4|
+4

7th|Whirling blades|
+4

8th|Double Cut, Whirlwind Attack|
+4

9th|Improved Two weapon Defense|
+5

10th|Tighter Grip, Unarmed Damage Increase|
+5

11th|Greter Two Weapon Fighting|
+5

12th|Second Slash +3d4|
+6

13th|Flowing Blades|
+6

14th||
+6

15th|Greater Two Weapon Defense|
+7

16th|Perfect Two Weapon Fighting, Unarmed Damage Increase|
+7

17th||
+7

18th|Second Slash +4d4|
+8

19th|Dance of Blades|
+8

20th|Master of the claw|
+8

[/table]
Wepon Profecentcies: A Tiger blade is profecent with the dager, Short Sword, Scimitar, Longsword, Greatsword, Tiger Head Hook Swords (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57913)and Bastard Sword(Martial version). Tiger Blade are Profecent with Light armors, but not sheilds.

Bonus Feats: Tiger Blade gains the feats listed on the table above even if they do not me the requirements.

Second Slash: A Tiger blade Learns to hit an older wound to do more damage. When making an attack on a target that they have already hit and done damage to this turn, they may do an extra +xd4 damage. This extra damage doesn't affect non-living creatures/objects, or those imune to critical hits.

Choping Fists: By mastering the way he strikes, a Tiger blade may treat his Unarmed strikes as Slashing for the purposes of Class features and bypassing Damage reduction.

Swinging Blades: Through intense training to have control over their blade, a Tiger Blade learns to change direction of the blade adn perform Dexterous acts with his blade. A slashing master aplies his dexterity modifier to all attack roles in addition to their strength modifier. This works with weapon finesse. This only works with a slashing weapon and when wearing light or no armor and only carrying a light load.

Pounce: By continually moving his blades, a Tiger Blade may make a full round attack at the end of a charge. This works just like the monster ability of the same name. This cost 1 ki per round used, and can only be done with slashing weapons.

Whirling Blades: Because of their continual training Tiger Blades can expanded their finesse to do more damage. A Tiger blade may apply their Dexterity modifier in addition to the strength modifier. This cost 1ki and last for a number of rounds equal the Tiger Blades wisdom modifier. This only works with a slashing weapon and when wearing Light or no armor and only carryings a light load.

Double Cut: A Tiger Blade may make an attack with their off hand weapon a part of a standard attack action.

Flowing Blades: A Tiger Blade may use the Two Weapon fighting feat trees at no penitly to attack, this cost 1 ki and last for a number of rounds equal to their wisdom modifier.

Tighten Grip: A Tiger blade may treat one-handed weapons as light for the purpose of two weapon fighting penalties.

Dance of Blades: A tiger blade may strike with two Blades at once allowing for better accuracy and damage. This adds a +5 to hit and +5 to damage, this requires you to give up an off hand attack at the same attack bonus as the main hand attack you are applying this to, and cost 4 ki to use per attack used this way. When determining damage dealt, calculate each weapon's damage as normal then add them together with Second Slash damage and the additional +5.

Master of the Claw: By continually moving and weaving their blade, a Tiger blade learns to strike where it is least expected. This allows them to all attacks as if they are flat-footed until the Tiger Blades nest turn. This cost 2 ki and works with Dance of Blades.

Edit: I tried to fix the spelling errors.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-10, 01:30 AM
I will fix that now. Sorry that I haven't up till now but I have been busy with school and the playtesting a bit.

For sake of ease I will post it here in a minute.

GAH!! Its gone! I can't find the style anywhere!!

Thantos
2007-11-10, 01:38 AM
Yeah I killed the old one. But the new one is up and I think it is missing something but I think it fits TWFing better.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-10, 01:46 AM
Ok, lets see, its pretty good but some changes are in order:


Whirling blades should require Ki cost, though it can last for wis mod rounds.
Grant Tighter Grip at 10th level.
Add an ability in mid levels allowing an off-hand attack during a standard action.
Add a clause to Dance of Blades that states that the damage of both weapons is dealt.
Remove the emphasized part in Master of the Claw:
Master of the Claw: By continually moving and weaving their blade, a Tiger blade learns to strike where it is least excected. This allows them to all attacks as if they are flat-footed until the Tiger Blades nest turn. This cost 3 ki and works with Final strike and Greater Final strike.

Thantos
2007-11-10, 01:50 AM
I will add your sugestions oh and how do I add breaks in the table?

Edit: Is Level Fourteen to high for mid leve? And on Dance of blades would it be better to say that you get Second slash damage with it or just add both weapons damage?

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-10, 01:52 AM
I will add your sugestions oh and how do I add breaks in the table?

What do you mean by "breaks"? New columns, or empty rows?

Thantos
2007-11-10, 01:53 AM
Neither, basicly giving each collom text rolling.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-10, 01:56 AM
Neither, basicly giving each collom text rolling.

Oh, I don't think there is any way to do that. The tables are somewhat limited, though at least we actually have tables here. When I posted my entry feat for the NotCon contest, I had to use code since wizards' forums don't support tables, I can't image try to line everything up by hand like they have to *shudder*

Thantos
2007-11-10, 02:01 AM
Yeah I know it is very evil because as you post it looks lined up but then it isn't on the acutall post that everyone sees.

Edit Finished the changes Tatarous wanted. You should reread Dance of Blades though because I did a little more to it and up the Ki cost by one.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-10, 02:18 AM
You haven't added the clause I suggested to Dance of Blades, just add this:

Dance of Blades: A tiger blade may strike with two Blades at once allowing for better accuracy and damage. This adds a +5 to hit and +5 to damage, this requires you to give up an off hand attack at the same attack bonus as the main hand attack you are applying this to, and cost 1 ki to use per attack used this way. When determining damage dealt, calculate each weapon's damage as normal then add them together with the additional +5.
That should make it clear. Also, how about moving Greater Two Weapon Defense from 17th to 15th level, this spreads out the dead levels a bit.

Thantos
2007-11-10, 02:19 AM
Ok works for me I think I was a little hasty in PM you though sorry.

Edit: there you go.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-10, 02:31 AM
Ok works for me I think I was a little hasty in PM you though sorry.

Edit: there you go.

Wait, now that I think about it, up the ki cost to 2 and if you want to add Second Slash damage, increase it to 4. This might even need to be increased after playtesting. But after that fix, TB is official (its got its own abbreviation now!)

Also, I think WW is getting left out a lot since they lack bonus damage of any kind...hm, maybe I should keep them that way as a mook killer and master flanker. If they need damage, they could always multi-style into Tiger Blade.

Edit: Links to each style are now on the OP! We have 7 styles so far and I think a flexible weapon on might work, however, I think beyond that would be too much.

Thantos
2007-11-10, 02:34 AM
I will do that, I do think that the Second slash should also be in there so 4 ki it is. Then I shall write up Les' older brother the Tiger Blade.

Edit: Done:smallbiggrin:

Uthug
2007-11-10, 10:45 AM
Well actually I was wondering why so many different styles need to be made. From my point of view, the main issue at hand seems to be balancing the classes and working out the kinks in the classes, which seem to be quite numerable.

Edit: Question: How does Improved Critical work in this setting?

Uthug
2007-11-10, 10:58 AM
Re: The Tiger Blade
Nice class and seems fun to play. but you do know Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting is an Epic feat?

Anyway, with all the nice Two-Weapon fighting feats what's anyone supposed to spend their feats on?

Edit: How would Double Cut and Flowing Strike work with this feat:
Dual Strike:
You are an expert skirmisher skilled at fighting with two weapons. Your extensive training with two weapons allows you to attack with both while moving through a chaotic combat or fighting a running battle.

Prerequisite: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Fighting.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a melee attack with your primary weapon and your off-hand weapon. Both attacks use the same attack roll to determine success, using the worse of the two weapons' attack modifiers. If you are using a one-handed or light weapon in your primary hand and a light weapon in your offhand, you take a -4 penalty on this attack roll; otherwise you take a -10 penalty.
Each weapon deals its normal damage. Damage reduction and other resistances apply separately against each weapon attack.
Special: When you make this attack, you apply precision-based damage (such as from sneak attack) only once. If you score a critical hit, only the weapon in your primary hand deals extra critical hit damage; your off-hand weapon deals regular damage.
A fighter may select Dual Strike as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Lakoda
2007-11-10, 11:07 AM
Uthug you make a good point about the number of styles. EDIT: I wanted to qualify...I think we need to establish some direction with the styles...we could go all out and make lots of styles. We need to come up with guidelines for the type of styles we want. We have a TWF style in the works and a Parry type style. What other types are there/do we want? /rant

Perfect TWF is way too much (in my opinion) especially at level 16 - all those extra attacks need to be balanced a little (-2 is very reasonable). I don't even all PTWF in epic campaigns I run - but that is just me.

Partysan
2007-11-10, 12:53 PM
renaming successful. I thought about the suggestion of putting Cunning Sidestep into a later level but I cannot find an alternative as I don't want to destroy the 6lvl progression of the counterstrike ability and I think UC is too powerful for 2nd lvl.

About the number of styles: I think we should lokk for which we have avatar evidence. Tiger Claw is probably Jet's style, Mantis Blade is partly used by Zuko and Bumi mentions the principle of neutral Chi and waiting for the moment to strike in one episode. What is missing?

EDIT: Gah, I don't recognize you with that new Avatar. Though it looks stylish.

Xiagu
2007-11-10, 12:58 PM
Perfect TWF is way too much (in my opinion) especially at level 16 - all those extra attacks need to be balanced a little (-2 is very reasonable). I don't even all PTWF in epic campaigns I run - but that is just me.

Well, you know, you are burning four feat slots (normally), probably spending at least half of your ability score increases on Dex (to get to GTWF), and PTWF requires 25 Dex (normally)...

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-10, 01:12 PM
Uthug you make a good point about the number of styles. EDIT: I wanted to qualify...I think we need to establish some direction with the styles...we could go all out and make lots of styles. We need to come up with guidelines for the type of styles we want. We have a TWF style in the works and a Parry type style. What other types are there/do we want? /rant
This is why I said I can only see one other style fitting in and thats the style that covers trips, disarms and possibly sunders (though MP probably does better with that).


Perfect TWF is way too much (in my opinion) especially at level 16 - all those extra attacks need to be balanced a little (-2 is very reasonable). I don't even all PTWF in epic campaigns I run - but that is just me.
Actually, I normally rule that TWFing gives you perfect TWFing. Its ridiculous to take so many feats. Wait....do you know what Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#perfectTwoWeaponFighting) does? It seems like you think it removes the normal TWFing penalties, it does not. And while I did suggest putting in an ability like that before, I retract that suggestion.

Edit: Thanks Partysan, its in honor of the NotCon contests, I've got two entries, one in the feats and one in the creatures. My avatar is based off my feat entry, if anyone has a wizards' account vote for me :smallbiggrin: If I get top-ten of course:smallfrown:

Partysan
2007-11-10, 01:53 PM
No problem with the Cunning Sidestep anymore? Good.

I'm asking myself if the MBF should get the unarmed damage increase (I just saw that even the HES gets it)

And I think there's a typo on the first page in the BAB for lvl 20.
it says 20/15/9/4 instead of 20/15/10/5.

Actually I think that the MBF can fill the role of a tripper or disarmer quite well as they are battlefield controllers like him and he gets combat expertise which is a prereq for the improved X feats as well as a great threatening area.
I think we should look for things in the series we can't represent by now.
If we just made things up, I could as well post a grappling based Serpent Style Wrestler or sth like that.

And I will of course vote for you^^

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-10, 02:20 PM
No problem with the Cunning Sidestep anymore? Good.

I'm asking myself if the MBF should get the unarmed damage increase (I just saw that even the HES gets it)
As a rule, all Martial Artists get an unarmed damage progression of at least WW's but not as good as MP's.


And I think there's a typo on the first page in the BAB for lvl 20.
it says 20/15/9/4 instead of 20/15/10/5.
Thanks, I'll fix that.


Actually I think that the MBF can fill the role of a tripper or disarmer quite well as they are battlefield controllers like him and he gets combat expertise which is a prereq for the improved X feats as well as a great threatening area.
I think we should look for things in the series we can't represent by now.
If we just made things up, I could as well post a grappling based Serpent Style Wrestler or sth like that.
Hm, I guess a new style of tripping and disarms isn't exactly needed, though I like your grappler idea, just be careful it doesn't get too powerful, benders are extremely weak vs grapple.


And I will of course vote for you^^
Yay! My feat rules! Though I don't know if it fits in avatar, too supernatural...

Lakoda
2007-11-10, 03:26 PM
This is why I said I can only see one other style fitting in and thats the style that covers trips, disarms and possibly sunders (though MP probably does better with that).

Actually, I normally rule that TWFing gives you perfect TWFing. Its ridiculous to take so many feats. Wait....do you know what Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#perfectTwoWeaponFighting) does? It seems like you think it removes the normal TWFing penalties, it does not. And while I did suggest putting in an ability like that before, I retract that suggestion.

Bah! I've been reading that feat wrong for a long time. I never read past the part that said using same BAB as your primary to read the part about still applying the penalties. 1 feat for 1 attack still seems fair to me, the issue is that it isn't very fair compared to a caster.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-10, 03:32 PM
Bah! I've been reading that feat wrong for a long time. I never read past the part that said using same BAB as your primary to read the part about still applying the penalties. 1 feat for 1 attack still seems fair to me, the issue is that it isn't very fair compared to a caster.

Why do you say so? (I assume you mean "bender" when you say "caster") The benders have extremely high and consistent damage (which we are discussing right now in the bender thread) whereas all the Martial Artists only get their high damage in special circumstances (though I'm considering upping DS's Precise Strike). Though the Second Slash damage is probably the most consistent, for that reason the damage progression for TB is a lot lower than every other style.

Edit: Also, remember that the TB relies almost solely on full-round attacks to deal any real damage, or charges after 5th level.

Lakoda
2007-11-10, 05:13 PM
Sorry, I see how that sounds...I meant it differently then you took it. Melee mechanics are underpowered compared to Caster/Bender mechanics in general. THe MA is concederable stronger then the core melees, and rightfully so. The 1-attack for 1-feat is fair in a world without magic, but when magic/bending comes into play you need to give more bang to the melee's buck, so 1-for-1 becomes less fair. Does that make for sense? Sorry to bring magic into the discussion I just don't know how bending works well enough to discuss it in comparison to melee.

levi
2007-11-11, 12:13 AM
Honestly, I think the system would be nicer with a larger number of focused small (less than 20 level) styles, rather than three full styles. Not to put down all the hard work that has been done, but, does something like TWF really need 20 levels? One idea I want to work on, an Iajutsu based style, would work much better in such a system. For example, if my Iajutsu-ish style was 5 levels, and a Kenjutsu-ish style was 10 levels; A Samurai-type character could master both and still have 5 LVs for other stuff

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-11, 12:21 AM
Honestly, I think the system would be nicer with a larger number of focused small (less than 20 level) styles, rather than three full styles. Not to put down all the hard work that has been done, but, does something like TWF really need 20 levels? One idea I want to work on, an Iajutsu based style, would work much better in such a system. For example, if my Iajutsu-ish style was 5 levels, and a Kenjutsu-ish style was 10 levels; A Samurai-type character could master both and still have 5 LVs for other stuff

I had proposed that a while back with my weapon master, but not much response was given. Go ahead, but I've got an announcement to make that doesn't really do much to your idea, but:

Announcement: At this point it has been determined that, besides tweaking as playtesting continues, the Martial Artist class and the seven styles are completed. These styles are all that will be admitted into the Avatar D20 project as I and others feel it sufficiently covers all styles presented in the show. This does not prevent further styles to be added though they are encouraged as long as they are unique and balanced and shall be kept with the Martial Artist class, but outside the Avatar D20 project. Thank you all for your great work and help!

- Lord Tataraus

Lakoda
2007-11-11, 12:24 AM
You make a good point, and for a while I was would have jumped in that boat with you, however nothing says you have to stick with a style for all 20 levels, but I think having the option to do so is nice (especially because it isn't necessary).


... as I and others feel it sufficiently covers all styles presented in the show ...
Is that a challenge?

:smallbiggrin: Sorry I had to! I think it is good to establish a scope for the project, it was needed.

Enlong
2007-11-11, 01:18 AM
OK, what exactly is the Fast Movement bonus that Wind Warriors get? Am I to assume it's the same as the Monk gets?

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-11, 01:26 AM
OK, what exactly is the Fast Movement bonus that Wind Warriors get? Am I to assume it's the same as the Monk gets?

Oh, sorry, I meant to put that in a while ago, I just added it but here you go:
Fast Movement: A Wind Warrior moves as fast as the wind to stay out of harm's way. A Wind Warrior gains a +10ft bonus to her base land speed. This bonus increase to +20ft 9th level, +30ft at 15th level and +40ft at 18th level.

Uthug
2007-11-11, 02:35 AM
Do Masterwork/ Weapons with craftmanship bonuses confer their bonus on their ammunition? For example, does a bow confer its masterwork bonuses on its ammo? And would its ammo gain the damage bonuses and the razored bunuses? I think that should be incorporated in the table(whether it works on the ammunition)

Uthug
2007-11-11, 03:44 AM
Dragon Scholar
Master of the Dragon's Flame: A Dragon Scholar who has mastered her style is a paragon of precise and hard-hitting attacks as well as cunning tactics. A Dragon Scholar learns the final technique of harnessing the great strength of the Dragon as well as its precise aim with its fiery breath to make deadly attacks. A Dragon Scholar may make any one attack that hits a critical hit as if she had rolled a natural 20.

How does this work with shower of sparks? Is the -2 from a roll with a nat 20 or the original roll? Or how would shower of sparks work anyway with a nat 20 as it's an auto hit? And for the confirmed critical for a shower of sparks attack, the bonus for the confirmed critical would be?

Partysan
2007-11-11, 05:12 AM
Serpent Strangler - A warrior who favors his fists above all, focusing on grappling and wrestling his opponent. They embody the great strangling and constricting ability of snakes to crush their opponents. They are quick and deadly, but the most physically strong.

Shall I take that as an encouragement?

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-11, 09:09 AM
Do Masterwork/ Weapons with craftmanship bonuses confer their bonus on their ammunition? For example, does a bow confer its masterwork bonuses on its ammo? And would its ammo gain the damage bonuses and the razored bunuses? I think that should be incorporated in the table(whether it works on the ammunition)

Bows confer their qualities to arrows but can't have the keen or razored bonuses. I'll change the tables to include ammunition.


How does this work with shower of sparks? Is the -2 from a roll with a nat 20 or the original roll? Or how would shower of sparks work anyway with a nat 20 as it's an auto hit? And for the confirmed critical for a shower of sparks attack, the bonus for the confirmed critical would be?
Shower of sparks works of of the original roll so only the base damage will crit. The bonus damage would be kept separate from a critical hit. So you deal with the critical hit stuff first, then if it actually did hit, shower of sparks activates off of your original roll and these new "rolls" cannot crit.


Shall I take that as an encouragement?

Yes, though it won't be included in the Avatar project, I kind of like the idea.

Uthug
2007-11-11, 09:40 AM
So basically in this case for Shower of Sparks, for the bonus "attacks", a roll of a nat 20 wouldn't be an auto hit? Cause that would let someone do infinite damage. Also, you haven't replied on how improved critical would work in a setting using vitality points, where critical hits are much more deadly. This leads to the Dragon Scholar's final ability: an automatic critical hit. If anyone used this in your playtest(which I wanted to do and even statted out a character), wouldn't they insta-win?

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-11, 09:44 AM
So basically in this case for Shower of Sparks, for the bonus "attacks", a roll of a nat 20 wouldn't be an auto hit? Cause that would let someone do infinite damage.
Correct, the shower of sparks attacks would not be auto hits, they need to hit on their own.


Also, you haven't replied on how improved critical would work in a setting using vitality points, where critical hits are much more deadly. This leads to the Dragon Scholar's final ability: an automatic critical hit. If anyone used this in your playtest(which I wanted to do and even statted out a character), wouldn't they insta-win?
I have not responded party because we (at least I) are not using vitality/wounds system anymore but going back to HP. However, in a vitality/wounds system improved crit would increase threat range by one step and Master of Dragon's Flame would insta-kill.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-11, 01:25 PM
My fellow creators and critiquers of the Martial Artist class. I have an announcement to make.

As of now Eighth Seraph and I have split and gone or separate ways with the Avatar D20 project. Both this class and his benders are open to both projects, but Eighth Seraph has decided that it is his interpretation that this class does not fit in his idea of the Avatar project and will construct his own, completely separate class(es) for the meleers of the Avatar world. I would like to here and now encourage you to help him as I will in his project, but also warn you not to bring any of this material, unless specifically asked for or it highly pertains to the matter at hand into Eighth's separate creation. I will be helping with balance and no more so as to keep his creation distant from my own. I hope no one will display any unsportsmanlike behavior at his decision and will only work to further his project. I do not expect any of you to act in such a way, but you can never be too sure.

Thank you.

Thank you, Eighth Seraph for your contributions and I am sorry it did not work out.

Partysan
2007-11-11, 03:36 PM
Thanks, Eight Seraph, your benders are wonderful. Maybe I'll try to contribute if I have ideas.

Now, Lord, if I understood correctly (and I hope so) then we are still allowed to use his benders for our avatar world?

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-11, 03:38 PM
Thanks, Eight Seraph, your benders are wonderful. Maybe I'll try to contribute if I have ideas.

Now, Lord, if I understood correctly (and I hope so) then we are still allowed to use his benders for our avatar world?

This is a public forum, everything posted here is for public use. You can do whatever you want with anything posted here except sell it (and a few other things probably, but use common sense).

Partysan
2007-11-11, 04:19 PM
This is a public forum, everything posted here is for public use. You can do whatever you want with anything posted here except sell it (and a few other things probably, but use common sense).
I think you got me wrong: I was asking if the Avatar Martial Artist that we are working on and that Eighth Seraph has disapproved would still use Eighth Seraph's bender classes as comparison. (and for the arena)

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-11, 04:22 PM
I think you got me wrong: I was asking if the Avatar Martial Artist that we are working on and that Eighth Seraph has disapproved would still use Eighth Seraph's bender classes as comparison. (and for the arena)

This project has split into two projects, Eighth Seraphs and my own. Each will use the same benders, though they might be balanced differently. So, yes, this class will use his benders for comparison.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-11, 05:41 PM
Alright, I think I need to add a clause to Crushing Wave Strike so that it can't be used with power attack. +40 damage, even at 20th level is just deadly!

Lakoda
2007-11-11, 05:48 PM
Will there be a separate thread for both sets of bender classes or will the same thread host both projects modification (for balancing purposes). I think it would get confusing to share a thread but that the same time it would be hard to carry over any creative (non-balance change) to both. I'm not sure yet which I'd prefer

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-11, 05:51 PM
Will there be a separate thread for both sets of bender classes or will the same thread host both projects modification (for balancing purposes). I think it would get confusing to share a thread but that the same time it would be hard to carry over any creative (non-balance change) to both. I'm not sure yet which I'd prefer

That is a good question. I will pose my findings with testing in the bender thread and attempt to keep the benders the same in both cases as they should be, but if Eighth Seraph does not like me doing so, I will create a thread for modifying his benders for my project.

Lakoda
2007-11-11, 06:04 PM
I figured, I just wanted to call it out sooner then later.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-11-11, 06:38 PM
As of now Eighth Seraph and I have split and gone or separate ways with the Avatar D20 project. Both this class and his benders are open to both projects, but Eighth Seraph has decided that it is his interpretation that this class does not fit in his idea of the Avatar project and will construct his own, completely separate class(es) for the meleers of the Avatar world. I would like to here and now encourage you to help him as I will in his project, but also warn you not to bring any of this material, unless specifically asked for or it highly pertains to the matter at hand into Eighth's separate creation. I will be helping with balance and no more so as to keep his creation distant from my own. I hope no one will display any unsportsmanlike behavior at his decision and will only work to further his project. I do not expect any of you to act in such a way, but you can never be too sure.

Thank you.

Thank you, Eighth Seraph for your contributions and I am sorry it did not work out.Do you, by any chance, have epic ranks in Diplomacy? 'Cause it seems that way from time to time.

Anywho, thanks for being such a good sport about this, too. I do have one question: you strongly suggested that each of the sevens styles you made stemmed from fighters you saw in the show itself. I can't seem to find anything suggestive of the Serpent Strangler, the Ocean Sentinel or the Mantis Blade Fencer. Could you post where the inspiration for these came from?

Darkbane
2007-11-11, 06:44 PM
As far as I understand, Serpent Strangler is a non-canon addition. I think MBF is from Sokka's teacher, and I think OS was merely derived from the elemental/national philosophy of water.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-11, 06:45 PM
Do you, by any chance, have epic ranks in Diplomacy? 'Cause it seems that way from time to time.
When I am serious and passionate about something, I can write like that. I've always had a knack for diplomacy amongst friends and relatives and as I said before: "something important worth writing is wroth writing right." (Maybe not those exact words, but the alliteration makes it better :smalltongue: )


Anywho, thanks for being such a good sport about this, too. I do have one question: you strongly suggested that each of the sevens styles you made stemmed from fighters you saw in the show itself. I can't seem to find anything suggestive of the Serpent Strangler, the Ocean Sentinel or the Mantis Blade Fencer. Could you post where the inspiration for these came from?

Actually, serpent strangler is the eighth style and not included in the avatar project but for the class in a normal campaign. Mantis Blade Fencer is partially off of Sokka's Master, just focusing on the fencing style displayed in the beginning. Ocean Sentinel is just from the philosophy of push and pull and doesn't have an exact representation in the show, but it worked for a water-based philosophy style. I would say that Ocean Sentinel is the biggest stretch of all of the styles.

Edit: Darkbane ninja'd me with his short answer! Curse you! :smallbiggrin:

Eighth_Seraph
2007-11-11, 07:00 PM
Alright, thanks. As soon as I can get the Disciple of Healing Waters nailed down, I'll start on the alternate melee fighter thread. In the meantime, I've added this thread to the directory of the main bender thread. A bit late, yes, but since this is in the revision stages and is an official contribution to the setting, I though it'd be appropriate.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-11, 08:05 PM
I'm glad to see this is an official contribution and I assume your class(es) to come will be "variants" of this class (in the sense of a DM can choose one or the other).

A note on a minor/major change to the class as a whole, Ki is now determined as 1/2 your class level + wis mod. This will cut down on spamming the more powerful abilities, even though my level 20 OS used more than half his Ki on his opponents turn :smallbiggrin: and then pwned him.

Xiagu
2007-11-11, 08:14 PM
^ It's just not cool do to more damage than your opponent when it's his turn... :yuk:

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-11, 08:17 PM
^ It's just not cool do to more damage than your opponent when it's his turn... :yuk:

Well, that actually is the point of the OS, that and fooling your opponent to attack you an your turn so you can out damage him with more attacks. The problem of course is when your opponent deals almost as much damage as you (I'm at 3hp, not gonna live very long).

Xiagu
2007-11-11, 08:20 PM
(I'm at 3hp, not gonna live very long).
Hmm, how do you get 3 hp? I get 120-77-36 = 7 hp, not 3...

Partysan
2007-11-12, 09:52 AM
I can't seem to find anything suggestive of the Serpent Strangler, the Ocean Sentinel or the Mantis Blade Fencer. Could you post where the inspiration for these came from?

Actually I don't even know Sokkas master as in germany 3rd book isn't available yet. I had two sources however:
1. Zuko in Zuko Alone fighting the evil earth soldiers
2. The philosophy of the 3rd Chi that Bumi explained to Aang.

CabbageTheif
2007-11-12, 10:00 AM
i thought of sokkas master as a mix between MBF and Dagon Scholar. another mbf example, as i see it, are the warriorrs of Kyoshi. they parry with their fans rather than block, and have (as i see it) calm stance.

Partysan
2007-11-12, 10:08 AM
You're right, I also used the counter style of the kyoshi warriors. Just forgot.

ErrantX
2007-11-12, 04:23 PM
Hey Tataraus, I have something that needs clarifying in the multi-style MA.


For example, a Martial Artist may choose to advance the Wind Warrior style for her first three levels, getting those abilities, then decides to take two levels of Mountain Protector, gaining those abilities. A Martial Artist is free to switch between styles as much as she likes.

I don't understand the example. Does this mean that if I went levels 1-4 in Wind Warrior (gaining levels 1-4 of Wind Warrior's abilities), and then went Ocean Sentinel for levels 5-7, would I get the first 3 levels of Ocean Sentinel for my MA levels 5-7 or would I get Ocean Sentinel's levels 5-7 abilities? Example:

1 MA1 (WW1)
2 MA2 (WW2)
3 MA3 (WW3)
4 MA4 (WW4)
5 MA5 (WW4, OS1 or OS5?)
etc

Which abilities are received for multi-style characters?

-X

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-12, 04:29 PM
I don't understand the example. Does this mean that if I went levels 1-4 in Wind Warrior (gaining levels 1-4 of Wind Warrior's abilities), and then went Ocean Sentinel for levels 5-7, would I get the first 3 levels of Ocean Sentinel for my MA levels 5-7 or would I get Ocean Sentinel's levels 5-7 abilities? Example:

1 MA1 (WW1)
2 MA2 (WW2)
3 MA3 (WW3)
4 MA4 (WW4)
5 MA5 (WW4, OS1 or OS5?)
etc

Which abilities are received for multi-style characters?

-X

I need to put up a better example and will do so at some point. To answer you question, best I'll just modify the example then explain, the bold text is the addition/modification:
For example, a Martial Artist may choose to advance the Wind Warrior style for her first three levels, gaining the first abilities of the first three levels of Wind Warrior, then decides to take two levels of Mountain Protector, gaining the abilities of the first two levels of Mountain Protector. A Martial Artist is free to switch between styles as much as she likes.
So the above example you would have the abilities from Wind Warrior levels 1-3 and Mountain Protector levels 1-2.

I hope that clears it up and I'll modify the original text...

ErrantX
2007-11-12, 04:32 PM
I have a thought on fighters, rangers, etc:

The thought I'd like to share, is that you had said that the Martial Artists are to replace the fighter, right? Well, who could wear medium and heavy armor then? I think the MA's BAB should be knocked back to 3/4s and fighter and ranger shouldn't be removed. I can't see Sokka, for example, being anything but either a ranger or fighter until he met his teacher in the Fire Nation, learning some either Dragon Scholar or Mantis Blade Fencer. Anyone else want to share their thoughts on this?

-X

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-12, 04:42 PM
I have a thought on fighters, rangers, etc:

The thought I'd like to share, is that you had said that the Martial Artists are to replace the fighter, right? Well, who could wear medium and heavy armor then? I think the MA's BAB should be knocked back to 3/4s and fighter and ranger shouldn't be removed. I can't see Sokka, for example, being anything but either a ranger or fighter until he met his teacher in the Fire Nation, learning some either Dragon Scholar or Mantis Blade Fencer. Anyone else want to share their thoughts on this?

-X

NPC class Warrior. I mean, he picked up a level of MA from the Kyoshi Warriors, but really, he sucks when fights (until Sokka's Master). He admits that he is no good. Also, MP gets heavy armor and a few others get medium. I'm not against NPC warrior class, but the PCs would be above that.

Partysan
2007-11-12, 04:44 PM
A pure fighter class without full BAB is mostly useless, hence the monk.
It would be no problem to make a style for heavy armor though I think MPs can wear it. However I can't remember having seen someone in heavy armor in avatar.

ErrantX
2007-11-12, 04:50 PM
Alright, I stand corrected :smallamused: I am in my place.

I am behind the MA 100% then.

-X

Darkbane
2007-11-12, 04:51 PM
There's a short example in Sokka's Master in the weapon shop where Aang is wearing a set of full plate. While it's mostly for humorous effect, and he falls over, there's got to be someone who wears that kind of armor or the store wouldn't make it.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-12, 05:09 PM
There's a short example in Sokka's Master in the weapon shop where Aang is wearing a set of full plate. While it's mostly for humorous effect, and he falls over, there's got to be someone who wears that kind of armor or the store wouldn't make it.

I think that was ceremonial. No one in their right mind would use it, its not practical.