I think I figured out a certain answer to the time paradox in the afterlife.

[FrostXian]

I was randomly re-reading the strip when I spotted an important part, you see;
We've been discussing what went on, was it Roy who didn't notice the time fly by, or was it Celestia's time passing faster than mortal realms.
Here's what;
Roy said that he's had the best DAY of his life to his grandfather, saying all the things he's done since he got to the afterlife, THIS is rejected by his grandfather, and he states how long he's been there.
Now, the guy only says this because Roy says it was the best DAY of his life, meaning the timeline is the same as mortal realms, Roy simply did not realize it with the absence of hunter, clocks, day-night differences and a need to sleep.
Roy hasn't had the best day of his life, he's had the best months of his life.
I hope this helped clear some confusion, pardon the mistakes, I am sick and it's late night.

[NikkTheTrick]

I was randomly re-reading the strip when I spotted an important part, you see;
We've been discussing what went on, was it Roy who didn't notice the time fly by, or was it Celestia's time passing faster than mortal realms.
Here's what;
Roy said that he's had the best DAY of his life to his grandfather, saying all the things he's done since he got to the afterlife, THIS is rejected by his grandfather, and he states how long he's been there.
Now, the guy only says this because Roy says it was the best DAY of his life, meaning the timeline is the same as mortal realms, Roy simply did not realize it with the absence of hunter, clocks, day-night differences and a need to sleep.
Roy hasn't had the best day of his life, he's had the best months of his life.
I hope this helped clear some confusion, pardon the mistakes, I am sick and it's late night.
Which is pretty much what the "Roy who didn't notice the time fly by" theory is. In absence of enviromental and biological indicators, it is very hard to pace oneself.

[David Argall]

Which is pretty much what the "Roy who didn't notice the time fly by" theory is. In absence of enviromental and biological indicators, it is very hard to pace oneself.

This idea is workable when we are talking ten minutes actually being an hour, but we are talking way over 100-1, 1 minute = 3 hours or so. Roy knows how long it takes to build his block city, and how long it takes to catch a few fish. He can be seriously off here, but he just can't be this wrong.

[The Extinguisher]

David Argall, not at all. It's perfectly reasonable to think that time travels normally.

First off, Roy has no body. So there's nothing to say, 'hey, it's about this time of day'. Secondly, he has no need to sleep, or eat, or stop doing something, or get tired, or whatnot. You do those things when you want to. On a whim. It never goes to night, it stays from what I can tell it stays noonish forever. There's no clocks around. How exactly would one even tell time that way.

It's very likely, with all the people dieing in the war, that there were very little beaucratic devas on the Northern Side (being transfered out, of course) and there's probably a lot of paperwork involved in a Northerner dieing in the south. Not to mention the mountain climb, which could have taken weeks, playing blocks, in which Sara had time to talk to some people, and Horace had time to climb down THREE levels. And the fishing trip. Those are long enough in the real world. I wouldn't be surprised if they started a month ago.

So there's a lot to suggest that Roy didn't notice time go by, and not a lot to suggest that time runs differently in the Outer Planes. Because if they did, people who planeshifted in and out would find themselves in the future. Or just age really, really fast.

[Green Bean]

So there's a lot to suggest that Roy didn't notice time go by, and not a lot to suggest that time runs differently in the Outer Planes. Because if they did, people who planeshifted in and out would find themselves in the future. Or just age really, really fast.

There's a pretty big precendence, at least. Many of the planes in the standard DnD setting have increased or decreased time flow. Plus, I don't think that doing a double planeshift would suck you into the future, any more than, you know, existing would.

[The Extinguisher]

Well, if there truely is a time flow difference, and 16 hours = 3 1/2 months, then logically, if you planeshifted, hung around for a few hours, you'be a few weeks in the future. Now if you stayed a few days...
Also, the way Horace corrected Roy makes it seem like it has been three and a half months on the mountain as well.

And I'm not sure, but I though the standard D&D planes had normal time flow.

[David Argall]

It's perfectly reasonable to think that time travels normally.

First off, Roy has no body. So there's nothing to say, 'hey, it's about this time of day'. Secondly, he has no need to sleep, or eat, or stop doing something, or get tired, or whatnot. You do those things when you want to. On a whim. It never goes to night, it stays from what I can tell it stays noonish forever. There's no clocks around. How exactly would one even tell time that way.

Not to mention the mountain climb, which could have taken weeks,
Subjectively this would take much more time that it actually did. Roy would see this as a boring time that took forever. He would start asking questions before he had spent even a day at climbing. Indeed, that is what he does.


playing blocks,
Here Roy has a very precise measure of time. He has moved X blocks, taking Y seconds each time = exact time. Actually he would have a fair amount of error, but we are talking not being able to tell if it has been 1 hour instead of 2. We are just way far away from 1 minute = 3 hours.


And the fishing trip. Those are long enough in the real world.
But again, Roy has the amount of time pretty well nailed. It takes an hour or two to catch a fish. So you catch any small number of fish and you have a small amount of time. You want to pass months, you are catching hundreds of fish, and that cues you you are spending a whole lot of time.
How much talking do you think Roy and Gramps did? You can see them talking for a few hours, but a month?

Roy has serious problems in trying to keep track of time, but inability to distinguish between 1 & 2 is not the same as inability to distinguish between 1 and 180.

Now if Roy were here for several weeks, he might end confused enough to not notice whether he has gone fishing 100 or 10,000 times, but he only has to measure 1 fishing trip and 1 game of blocks... His margin of error is not even days, much less months.

[Green Bean]

Well, if there truely is a time flow difference, and 16 hours = 3 1/2 months, then logically, if you planeshifted, hung around for a few hours, you'be a few weeks in the future. Now if you stayed a few days...
Also, the way Horace corrected Roy makes it seem like it has been three and a half months on the mountain as well.


Well, technically, it isn't that much different from just waiting for the future to show up. Think of it as a partial suspended animation. You exist for a year, but you only perform three days worth of actions.

[The Extinguisher]

Why? You wouldn't get bored in Celestia. It's paradise.

There is no internal method of telling time, so unless Roy has been counting "one one thousand, two one thousand..." since he died, he would have no way of knowing the time.

And sorry, you may do this, but if I'm playing blocks with my kid brother or fishing with my grandpa, I don't go "okay, this takes this long, and I've done it this many times". He's having too much fun to count the time.

Time is completle subjective. It felt like 12 hours for Roy, because he was having so much fun. I've lost 6 hours playing Legos when I thought it was just a half and hour or so. Inversely, I've had a physics class feel like a full day.


Well, technically, it isn't that much different from just waiting for the future to show up. Think of it as a partial suspended animation. You exist for a year, but you only perform three days worth of actions.

True enough, but I still consider that basically traveling to the future.

[NikkTheTrick]

Roy is dead. The biology of his spirit in Celestia is much different. He is not getting tired. there are no environmental factors to tell him that the time is passing. No day/night cycle, regular meals, etc. It is very easy to absolutely lose track of time in that situation. Especially for someone used to regular day/night cycle. His approximation of 12-14 hours was because he knew that he was there for a while, but was still not tired. Looks like a relatively long day to me.

[factotum]

It's also notable that Roy has commented on the amount of time that's passed on at least two occasions--in the first panel of 493 he says "Doesn't this mountain ever end...it's taking forever." He also says "It's like this day will never end" in 498. So, it seems obvious he is subliminally aware that a lot of time is passing, but his conscious mind doesn't really notice because it's having so much fun.

[Rad]

Roy hasn't had the best day of his life, he's had the best months of his life.

You know... technically...:smallbiggrin:

[Setra]

Why? You wouldn't get bored in Celestia. It's paradise.

There is no internal method of telling time, so unless Roy has been counting "one one thousand, two one thousand..." since he died, he would have no way of knowing the time.
How can a person lose 3 months?! Seriously?! Also, I'm fairly sure that since he has the capability to THINK he hasn't lost all internal measure of time. I have some of the worst time-sense of people I've met, and I can even be a week off in terms of date, but I just can't see how you can lose three months.

Your brain would probably go "Wait a minute.. how in the nine heavens could I fit all of this activity into a day? It doesn't make sense!"

For him to have NO clue whatsoever suggests to me that it's something else.

[Demented]

When lacking all else, the only way to measure time is either constantly (at which point, minutes take hours) or by remembering what you've done (which easily leads to time inflation as you forget things).

Playing with blocks, fishing, climbing an indistinct mountain, all of these lead to forgotten time. To say nothing of an interview about your entire life. Even if you're just going over the highlights, that's not gonna take a short time.

[The Extinguisher]

Look. It's possible to lose three months.

We feel a day go by because we get tired from when we wake up. Add in the sun's movement, and regular mealtimes, and we have a pretty good internal clock.

If you no longer have a body, there's no more biological functions. No more sun, no more way of telling time externally. And since you're always having fun (or being guilted), things go by fast. It's simple.

There's no conversion rate. I'd imagine Horace, being at the third level has a better grasp on time. Eternity is hard to get used to. I'd imagine all newbies have to deal with it.

Or, alternatively, there's just no time at all. It is eternity after all. They don't mesh well.

[Setra]

Look. It's possible to lose three months.

We feel a day go by because we get tired from when we wake up. Add in the sun's movement, and regular mealtimes, and we have a pretty good internal clock.

If you no longer have a body, there's no more biological functions. No more sun, no more way of telling time externally. And since you're always having fun (or being guilted), things go by fast. It's simple.
Even without the need to feed, or the sun, I don't see an internal clock getting messed up to that degree. I'd still think people would have an ability to notice time passing, for example, when I'm playing City of Heroes for a long period of time, I can notice how much time has passed by simply looking at how much I have done, which requires no real internal clock.

Time passes slower in my SLEEP, and most of that time is spent without awareness.

To me, for him to be able to lose that much time he would have to have done enough that if he reviewed over it, he couldn't notice three months missing, but for him to have done that much it would take much longer than just three months.

[vegetalss4]

Even without the need to feed, or the sun, I don't see an internal clock getting messed up to that degree. I'd still think people would have an ability to notice time passing, for example, when I'm playing City of Heroes for a long period of time, I can notice how much time has passed by simply looking at how much I have done, which requires no real internal clock.

Time passes slower in my SLEEP, and most of that time is spent without awareness.

To me, for him to be able to lose that much time he would have to have done enough that if he reviewed over it, he couldn't notice three months missing, but for him to have done that much it would take much longer than just three months.

IF he reviewed it.
maybe he just had fun and dident think about it

[Selv]

Even without the need to feed, or the sun, I don't see an internal clock getting messed up to that degree.

True, but you've never been dead.

I do not think this is a question that we can answer.

[One_Wolf]

Perhaps the celestial plane itself actually travels at a speed approaching the speed of light.

-One Wolf

[Emperor Demonking]

Maybe thier are less fish in the sea.

[David Argall]

Time is completle subjective. It felt like 12 hours for Roy, because he was having so much fun. I've lost 6 hours playing Legos when I thought it was just a half and hour or so.
You are still talking about a relatively short 12-1 ratio, and applying it to 180-1. Recall here that it was probably not so much that you got tired playing Legos, but that so event brought the passage of time to your attention.
Now in the case of our playing with blocks, how long will it be before mom wants some time with her sons? Letting them play for a few hours while her boyfriend visits or something is one thing, but it's hard to see her as staying out of the room for even 24 hours. The mountain climbing is even more clearly time limited to under a day. So we have Roy on the boat for over 100 days? There is only so much you can talk about.

But let's look at this from the other end. How does Gramps tell time? Under the fast time theory, that is fairly easy. He knows that 1 hour more or less = 10 days, so he knows how long it's been since he heard Roy was here and can guess how long it took Roy to reach his mom's place. A little math and he has 100 days.
But why and how would he gain any time sense if there is nothing to measure against? OK, he learns how hard it is to keep track of time, but he also learns, it really doesn't make any difference. So why would he bother? He's not going to be late for anything. So Horace would just be aware that he can't measure time worth beans, and wouldn't care.

Since he does have an accurate time sense, time is moving faster in the mortal realm.

[Setra]

True, but you've never been dead.

I do not think this is a question that we can answer.
True, but I have been comatose for long periods of time and still find time passing slower than it did for Roy.

[NikkTheTrick]

Now in the case of our playing with blocks, how long will it be before mom wants some time with her sons?
Why would she bother. She knows they are in heaven and happy. Why would she bother to distract them? It is not like they're going anywhere (Well, Roy will be rezzed, but he is going to die later and will come).

The mountain climbing is even more clearly time limited to under a day.
Where is evidence of that?

But why and how would he gain any time sense if there is nothing to measure against? OK, he learns how hard it is to keep track of time, but he also learns, it really doesn't make any difference. So why would he bother? He's not going to be late for anything. So Horace would just be aware that he can't measure time worth beans, and wouldn't care.
Remember: we are talking about a guy who reached a point of enlightment where he no longer cares about sex. He went all the way to third level! Perhaps, it is a place for "true warriors" and keeping track of time is certainly a responsible thing to do.


Even without the need to feed, or the sun, I don't see an internal clock getting messed up to that degree.
He is:
- Dead
- Not getting tired
- No need to eat.

That requires some major changes in one's physiology. Enough to totally mess up internal clock.

Drug addicts often completely lose track of the time when they are under influence. Since Roy is dead, that can be quite applicable.

[waffletaco]

This is too hard to speculate. Well actually, it's easy to speculate, but it's hard to find the right answer short of asking the Giant himself, because he created this whole world and all the dimensions and all the planes. At the same time, he may not have even thought about this--other than plot-wise. Like the answer given when fans ask about the Babylon 5 flying fighter's speed, it's whatever the hell the creator(the giant) feels like at the time.

[David Argall]

Why would she bother. She knows they are in heaven and happy. Why would she bother to distract them? It is not like they're going anywhere (Well, Roy will be rezzed, but he is going to die later and will come).
Because she is a mother, and she wants time with her boys too. The boys can have a little time together. It can even be a relief. But "Why haven't you phoned?" got to be a cliche because it does happen a lot. Spending days doing what amounts to heavenly housework without even looking in on her kids in the next room? We hardly need to state it before we know it is not going to happen.


Where is evidence of that?
Because we have Roy trying to measure the time it is taking him, and while he need not be accurate, he is more likely to exaggerate the time it takes rather than underestimate it.


Remember: we are talking about a guy who reached a point of enlightment where he no longer cares about sex. He went all the way to third level! Perhaps, it is a place for "true warriors" and keeping track of time is certainly a responsible thing to do.
I find no reference to Gramps losing interest in sex. I do find he had doubts about his son.

But if it is responsible to keep track of time, how is it responsible to loaf around in a boat for 100 days? Much easier to accept that he has no responsibilities, and thus no need to be responsible, not that an obsessive attention to the time seems that responsible in the first place.
Nor have we found a way for Horace to measure time even if he wanted to.


Drug addicts often completely lose track of the time when they are under influence. Since Roy is dead, that can be quite applicable.
Here too, this argues against Gramps having any talent at measuring time. It is the senior addict that is more likely to be out of it.

[Gilthans]

I'd only like to mention that the whole 'didn't notice' is very plausible. One very important strategy that captors use upon their captives is what is called 'time warping' - the captive is held in a dark cell with no windows, and is fed 7, even 8 times a day, each time with a small meal. That way he thinks time flies much, much faster than it does. After a week or so (that is 56 meals, way more than he'd keep count of, and since he doesn't know how many meals he gets a day, it may have been 2 months as far as he's concerned), someone comes in, feeding him the whole 'your family has moved on' and 'your country left you here to die' stuff in order to force him to give information. The prisoner, which believes that he IS long missing and assumed dead, is more reluctant to give information which he believes is no longer useful.
This is a proven theory; it shows that humans CAN completely lose track of time. If they can make a week look like two months, I think that it is concievable that without hunger, night-and-day or sleep, one might confuse three months with a day, even if he did accomplish quite a bit during that 'day'.

[NikkTheTrick]

Because she is a mother, and she wants time with her boys too. The boys can have a little time together. It can even be a relief. But "Why haven't you phoned?" got to be a cliche because it does happen a lot. Spending days doing what amounts to heavenly housework without even looking in on her kids in the next room? We hardly need to state it before we know it is not going to happen.
Once again, why bother. Also, we have no evidence she didn't check on them. And she would not want to trouble Roy by reminding him of time passed: he was happy with his brother and, therefore, no need to ruin his happiness by reminding of troubles his soldiers have.

Because we have Roy trying to measure the time it is taking him, and while he need not be accurate, he is more likely to exaggerate the time it takes rather than underestimate it.
People exagerrate time because they get tired. Roy does not get tired.

I find no reference to Gramps losing interest in sex. I do find he had doubts about his son.
As Roy's Archon said, it takes 30-40 years for people to "sort messed up urges after spending life in a glorified sausage". Roy's grandfather had passed that stage. He sought further enlightment and, while it is quite possible he is having sex regularry, he is already past the point of doing it 24/7 (advantage of not getting tired:smallamused: )

But if it is responsible to keep track of time, how is it responsible to loaf around in a boat for 100 days? Much easier to accept that he has no responsibilities, and thus no need to be responsible, not that an obsessive attention to the time seems that responsible in the first place.
Nor have we found a way for Horace to measure time even if he wanted to.
Perhaps, he learned way of measuring time on the upper levels. we simply cannot tell untill we know what's on there.

Here too, this argues against Gramps having any talent at measuring time. It is the senior addict that is more likely to be out of it.
Being senior would have nothing to do with it: they do not get tired in heaven anyway.
Roy just got into heaven. He is used to feeling on the mortal plane. He is used to day/night cycle. he simply was not used to environment. I got drunk many times, but none were as disorienting as the first time.
roy's grandfather was dead for a long time (given 2 generations difference, we can estimate about 20-30 years). He is likely to be used to Celestia and would figure a way to approximately tell time. I am sure Roy, now knowing how easy to lose track of time, will not lose track of 100 days again.


That all said, the discussion will go nowhere. Both theories are plausible and the only way for us to tell if it is one, another or mix of two is to see future comics.

[....]

Here Roy has a very precise measure of time. He has moved X blocks, taking Y seconds each time = exact time. Actually he would have a fair amount of error, but we are talking not being able to tell if it has been 1 hour instead of 2. We are just way far away from 1 minute = 3 hours.

You've never played blocks before, have you.

[ChimericPhase]

Maybe time just travels at the speed of plot? :smallsmile:

[factotum]

Because we have Roy trying to measure the time it is taking him, and while he need not be accurate, he is more likely to exaggerate the time it takes rather than underestimate it.


But he never actually tried to measure how long it takes--he just says "it's taking forever" without any sort of indication of how long he thinks that is. Also, don't forget that he has been convinced from the moment he died that Durkon would resurrect him in the morning, and since belief is such a powerful force in Celestia (powerful enough to make weapons that can kill plane-shifted adventurers from the Prime Material Plane), it's entirely possible that he's managed to convince HIMSELF that all this has happened in less than 24 hours.

Celestia having a 200-1 time ratio with the real world makes even less sense. It would mean that Roy's Grandad has only been on the mountain for a matter of a few months, and yet in such a short time he's managed to ascend to the third level--something the Archon suggested took years. Similarly, Sarah Greenhilt has been on the mountain for less than a week, yet in that time she's managed to get a house AND a lover...can we say "fast worker"? Lastly, in the current strip, the Archon reads out an extremely precise measure of how long Roy had been on the mountain, followed by a BEEEEEP. At 200 to 1 that beep alone would have been three or four minutes, so why would the archon have bothered being so precise?

The simple fact is, there is more evidence to support Roy's perception of time being skewed than the actual flow of time being skewed.

[Setra]

But he never actually tried to measure how long it takes--he just says "it's taking forever" without any sort of indication of how long he thinks that is. Also, don't forget that he has been convinced from the moment he died that Durkon would resurrect him in the morning, and since belief is such a powerful force in Celestia (powerful enough to make weapons that can kill plane-shifted adventurers from the Prime Material Plane), it's entirely possible that he's managed to convince HIMSELF that all this has happened in less than 24 hours.
This I'll believe

[Kompera]

I'm firmly in the "Roy hasn't yet learned to gauge time as a spirit" camp.

Did you see the size of the block castle he and his kid brother made? That wasn't accomplished in a couple of hours.

And for those who have said that Gramps shouldn't be any more aware of time than Roy, on top of the "Gramps has had time to get used to it" arguments I'll add that Gramps has access to clocks of which Roy was not previously aware. The Archons are clocks, Roy just didn't know that he could ask for a time elapsed reading before Gramps showed him how.

And some examples from the strip:

Roy's experience in the limbo plane, before he even begins his time in the celestial plane, take up the strips from 485-491. During that time, his interview with the Deva alone would have taken many hours, and perhaps days. The Deva did go over all of the details of Roy's life in fairly exacting detail, covering not only the event shown in earlier strips but also things which occurred prior to the strip, such as the notes made my Roy's high school principal. And one panel shows Roy and the Deva chatting and joking, which is something that would usually take some time to get to with a bureaucratic type.

While climbing the mountain Roy complains "Doesn't this mountain ever end? [...]it's taking forever." A bit of foreshadowing, perhaps?

And Roy says, after listing all of the things he's done in his first "day" in the celestial realm "It's like this day will never end". A perfect time for him to come to the realization that indeed, the day will never end. :smallwink:


Edit: It appears that factotum has managed to Ninja me by about 5 hours on a couple of my examples...

[glissle]

Here Roy has a very precise measure of time. He has moved X blocks, taking Y seconds each time = exact time.
There's no evidence that Roy simply built one big castle. When playing with blocks, it is typical to knock down structures and rebuild them, and moreover to use them to tell stories. I can imagine Roy stomping around like Godzilla, then lifting up Eric to be Mothra, or whatever. Roy might have also relayed a complete chronicle of his adventures to Eric - any resemblance to Azure City of that last structure may not have been a coincidence. I can easily see Roy completely losing track of time when he is talking about himself.

[Setra]

Before any 'I told you so' comments are made.

I preemptively reject your reality, and substitute my own.

So there. :smalltongue:

[FrostXian]

I am so satisfied.
Wait, he just got down the mountain. How long did THAT take?

[Roderick_BR]

Yeah, seems like the "wrong perception of time" theory was right. Roy was like a kid arriving the first time on an amusement park.

[NikkTheTrick]

I am so satisfied.
Wait, he just got down the mountain. How long did THAT take?
Wohoo! Let's celebrate victory:smallbiggrin:

Roy could have jumped down the mountain... ouch...

That would be fast though : 9.8 m/s^2 acceleration:smalleek:

[....]

I am so satisfied.
Wait, he just got down the mountain. How long did THAT take?


He jumped. Not like he can die. Or maybe an Archon flew him down.

And I'm glad Rich knows how playing blocks with a kid works. Just building one tower can take hours :smallsmile:

[David Argall]

There is the elevator, which he is now elegible to use.

[The Extinguisher]

I win!

So that's my theories: one. Everyone elses: 498

[Kompera]

I win!

So that's my theories: one. Everyone elses: 498
*ahem*

I want to know if Roy can walk on water now that he's dead. I wish that the scene hadn't jumped past that little bit of information on the afterlife...