Eugene: how is he....

[TheMeanDM]

After demonstrating his complete and utter lack of compassion for his son, as well as fully illustrating for us a) his petty nature and b) his selfish nature....how does he ever expect to get into the LG plane?

At best, he's probably Lawful Neutral.

He doesn't deserve eternal happiness.

[bluish_wolf]

He was just toying with him for a bit. He was certainly going to do it eventually. That's why he was so surprised when Roy gave up.

[Hyozo]

Everybody's father can be an ass to their son, but still good. It's like judging the Mona Lisa solely on the lack of eyebrows; it's a major failing, but one detail does not make the entire picture worthless.

[Lord]

Everybody's father can be an ass to their son, but still good. It's like judging the Mona Lisa solely on the lack of eyebrows; it's a major failing, but one detail does not make the entire picture worthless.

Except in this case the artist put a blank sheet of paper on display. :smallbiggrin:

[Fussy]

his actions are LG - his words are not. Miko was like this most of her life and was LG.

[TheMeanDM]

Good people are not selfish. Eugene only helped Shojo (and Roy) for his own personal reason (to fulfill the oath and get into Celestia).

Good people do not willingly inflict mental anguish upon their loved ones.

Good people help when and how they can. They often times will offer their help without request.

Good people do not abandon their family so willingly, again demonstrating a selfish nature.

Eugene is NOT acting like a good person, in my book.

[chibibar]

well.. the problem is that we are going by our personal standard of good. We have to look at the universal way.

Does Eugene do anything that would harm others (in this term killing good people) no.

Does Eugene EVER thought about hurting other people. No.

Does Eugene trick people to hurt good people? not really. This maybe debatable but in the end, Eugene is trying to do good things and never abuse his power for evil purpose. Thus he is still LG.

We tend to think LG are more stick up their butt or have to be "super good" I love the Giant way of portraying a LG person via Roy. This is a good example of what a LG should be played.

Being sarcastic and mean (in terms of not doing evil) is normal.... we also shown that side via Miko.

Then we saw the other side of LG via Hinjo.

All are LG, but show different personality. We don't have to follow a cookie cutter LG rules like shown in the book. They are guidelines after all.

[Fussy]

Good people are not selfish. Eugene only helped Shojo (and Roy) for his own personal reason (to fulfill the oath and get into Celestia).

Good people do not willingly inflict mental anguish upon their loved ones.

Good people help when and how they can. They often times will offer their help without request.

Good people do not abandon their family so willingly, again demonstrating a selfish nature.

Eugene is NOT acting like a good person, in my book.

In 'your book', maybe. But this is a DnD world, where actions do speak a lot louder than words. More specifically, Rich Burlew's world based on DnD. If he says Eugene is LG, then he is. We do not know absolutely everything about Eugene, so why assume the rest of his life was like this?

Evil characters can exist who are polite, have friends, care about family etc. so to some extent, the reverse should be true.

Also I'm not sure Roy is one of Eugene's 'loved ones'. If they weren't family, and somehow met, they'd hate each other.

[chibibar]

In 'your book', maybe. But this is a DnD world, where actions do speak a lot louder than words. More specifically, Rich Burlew's world based on DnD. If he says Eugene is LG, then he is. We do not know absolutely everything about Eugene, so why assume the rest of his life was like this?

Evil characters can exist who are polite, have friends, care about family etc. so to some extent, the reverse should be true.

Also I'm not sure Roy is one of Eugene's 'loved ones'. If they weren't family, and somehow met, they'd hate each other.

I totally agree. Not all evil creature are total killing spree. I love the portray of Redcloak. He does have some quality that is shown on the comic, AND if you read Start of Darkness (highly recommended) that evil can have the same quality listed above.

[preserver3]

Good people are not selfish. Eugene only helped Shojo (and Roy) for his own personal reason (to fulfill the oath and get into Celestia).

But why did he make the oath? I think that's the tell-tale sign here.


Good people do not willingly inflict mental anguish upon their loved ones.

I think the dysfunctional leanings between Roy and his sister might suggest otherwise, but I may be wrong. I have two brothers, I consider them both Good, but we've been done a bit more than good-natured ribbing in the past. We've appologized for it and as we get older the pain lessens and the lessons stay learned, but I think Roy's father was far more borderline LG than any other character save Miko.


Good people help when and how they can. They often times will offer their help without request.

Except when they have to teach a lesson. I've had to turn my back on a drug addict who I considered a friend before. You help them 10, 20, 30 times, but eventually you have to learn they need to learn how to help themselves. Eugene feels that roy has never learned the most important lessons; those revolving around thinking through the problem at hand and that magic is stronger than the sword. Eugene thinks there's a fundamental flaw in Roy's approach to life, through the expression of his profession. He probably even thinks Roy would have made a better Wizard than he did, because he wouldn't have specialized in Illusion.


Good people do not abandon their family so willingly, again demonstrating a selfish nature.

Correct, and Roy never should have abandoned Elan. He came back and that redeemed him. Likewise Eugene came back.


Eugene is NOT acting like a good person, in my book.

He's no Paladin, but then again I think Miko skirted that edge to the brink of destruction. I like to think that as homicide has been less and less an option that the line between good and Evil has been defined more by what we should do as opposed to merely what we can do. I think could and should are the details of this little power play between father and son more than good and evil.

That said, Eugene strikes me as almost Chaotic Good how he played fast and loose with the truth and with hints.

[Tempest Fennac]

Regarding the blood oath:
SoD spoiler:
He got drunk when failing Gather Information checks to find Xykon, and he decided to swear the oath without considering the long term consequences of it.

Regardng whether he is good, has he ever been seen to be doing anything that actuall classes as good? Helping Shojo doesn't count as he was only doing it because the BOoV is stopping him getting into heaven, and his other long-term projects (fulfilling the blood-oath, settling down with Sarah and becoming a famous Illusionist) all seem pretty neutral to me.

[TheMeanDM]

Does Eugene do anything that would harm others (in this term killing good people) no.

Does Eugene EVER thought about hurting other people. No.



You can't just limit "harm" to killing.
Harm has a MUCH broader meaning than that.

Eugene WILLFULLY inflicts mental HARM (anguish) upon Roy at every opportunity. He berates him, insults him, chastises him, MOCKS him....as a parent, we may chastise or berate our children for something that they've done wrong...but we do so with a lesson and good intentions behind our admonishment.

But mocking them? Berating them and taking pleasure in it? Please...that's not good, at all.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html

I know that the Deva told Roy to not be so....sarcastic...when he deals with people sometimes.

And guess what? He's taking that to heart. He bit his tongue when talking to Eugene.

But, I think I have some comic evidence to support my claim that Eugene is NOT Lawful Good:


One little thing that some may have missed...as I did:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html

Eugene: It's also where the souls of recently deceased folks of Good alignment come to be judged before being sent to their final rest.

Many are ASSUMING that Eugene is Lawful Good. That's because he believes himself to have lived a LG life.

We know this because he *thinks* that he is, based on a comment about getting up the mountain to see Violet.

However, I doubt very much that the Beaurocratic Deva of LG will see Eugene as being a Lawful person....and kick him into the "Chaotic" or "Neutral" file.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0488.html

Deva: ...if you hadn't gone back, then whether he lived or died, I would be chucking your file into the True Neutral bin right now.

Obviously, his soul would NOT make it into Celestia.

Eugene will be judged as a Chaotic person. Either Chaotic Good (which I am opposed to) or Chaotic Neutral.

Chaotic Good, "Rebel"
A chaotic good character acts as his conscience directs him with little regard for what others expect of him.
check: he doesn't care what even his FAMILY thinks of him

He makes his own way, but he’s kind and benevolent.
(meh: I haven't seen any evidence of him being kind or benevolent, yet)

He believes in goodness and right but has little use for laws and regulations.
(meh: he wants to kill Xykon not becuase it's the good thing, but for vengence)

He hates it when people try to intimidate others and tell them what to do.
(nope: he tries to tell Roy exactly what to do--fulfill the oath--and even hijacks a summoning spell to accomplish it)

He follows his own moral compass, which, although good, may not agree with that of society.
(check: he definitely has his own compass)


So, my vote goes to Chaotic Neutral:

Chaotic Neutral, "Free Spirit"
A chaotic neutral character follows his whims. He is an individualist first and last.
(check: he loses focus on things, and made a conscious decision to abandon his oath:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0495.html

Mom: he rarely sees any one project through to the end. He gets bored and refouces his attention elsewhere.

(meaning: he gets distracted and moves on to another project)


He values his own liberty but doesn’t strive to protect others’ freedom.
(check: he considers his family an inconvenience and secondary to his own desires...so he does what he wants, when he wants)

He avoids authority, resents restrictions, and challenges traditions.
(check: he hijacks the summoning spell. A Lawful character would follow the rules, and the bureaucratic stuff that went with it.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0487.html

Eugene: "I was able to skirt all sorts of restrictions until he sent me back."

A chaotic neutral character does not intentionally disrupt organizations as part of a campaign of anarchy.
To do so, he would have to be motivated either by good (and a desire to liberate others) or evil (and a desire to make those different from himself suffer).
(check: he is not disrupting Shojo's plans for Good or Evil. He hijacked the summoning spell to accomplish his own goal of revenge against Xykon. But, again, not because it's the right/good thing do to, because Xykon is evil.)

A chaotic neutral character may be unpredictable, but his behavior is not totally random.
(check: he loses focus, so you can't predict with accuracy if he is going to complete the "task" at hand, or not.)

So, I think that when Eugene's time comes to be judged...he'll be chucked into the Chaotic Neutral file.

[chibibar]

You can't just limit "harm" to killing.
Harm has a MUCH broader meaning than that.

Eugene WILLFULLY inflicts mental HARM (anguish) upon Roy at every opportunity. He berates him, insults him, chastises him, MOCKS him....as a parent, we may chastise or berate our children for something that they've done wrong...but we do so with a lesson and good intentions behind our admonishment.

But mocking them? Berating them and taking pleasure in it? Please...that's not good, at all.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html

I know that the Deva told Roy to not be so....sarcastic...when he deals with people sometimes.

And guess what? He's taking that to heart. He bit his tongue when talking to Eugene.

But, I think I have some comic evidence to support my claim that Eugene is NOT Lawful Good:


One little thing that some may have missed...as I did:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html

Eugene: It's also where the souls of recently deceased folks of Good alignment come to be judged before being sent to their final rest.

Many are ASSUMING that Eugene is Lawful Good. That's because he believes himself to have lived a LG life.

We know this because he *thinks* that he is, based on a comment about getting up the mountain to see Violet.

However, I doubt very much that the Beaurocratic Deva of LG will see Eugene as being a Lawful person....and kick him into the "Chaotic" or "Neutral" file.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0488.html

Deva: ...if you hadn't gone back, then whether he lived or died, I would be chucking your file into the True Neutral bin right now.

Obviously, his soul would NOT make it into Celestia.

Eugene will be judged as a Chaotic person. Either Chaotic Good (which I am opposed to) or Chaotic Neutral.

Chaotic Good, "Rebel"
A chaotic good character acts as his conscience directs him with little regard for what others expect of him.
check: he doesn't care what even his FAMILY thinks of him

He makes his own way, but he’s kind and benevolent.
(meh: I haven't seen any evidence of him being kind or benevolent, yet)

He believes in goodness and right but has little use for laws and regulations.
(meh: he wants to kill Xykon not becuase it's the good thing, but for vengence)

He hates it when people try to intimidate others and tell them what to do.
(nope: he tries to tell Roy exactly what to do--fulfill the oath--and even hijacks a summoning spell to accomplish it)

He follows his own moral compass, which, although good, may not agree with that of society.
(check: he definitely has his own compass)


So, my vote goes to Chaotic Neutral:

Chaotic Neutral, "Free Spirit"
A chaotic neutral character follows his whims. He is an individualist first and last.
(check: he loses focus on things, and made a conscious decision to abandon his oath:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0495.html

Mom: he rarely sees any one project through to the end. He gets bored and refouces his attention elsewhere.

(meaning: he gets distracted and moves on to another project)


He values his own liberty but doesn’t strive to protect others’ freedom.
(check: he considers his family an inconvenience and secondary to his own desires...so he does what he wants, when he wants)

He avoids authority, resents restrictions, and challenges traditions.
(check: he hijacks the summoning spell. A Lawful character would follow the rules, and the bureaucratic stuff that went with it.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0487.html

Eugene: "I was able to skirt all sorts of restrictions until he sent me back."

A chaotic neutral character does not intentionally disrupt organizations as part of a campaign of anarchy.
To do so, he would have to be motivated either by good (and a desire to liberate others) or evil (and a desire to make those different from himself suffer).
(check: he is not disrupting Shojo's plans for Good or Evil. He hijacked the summoning spell to accomplish his own goal of revenge against Xykon. But, again, not because it's the right/good thing do to, because Xykon is evil.)

A chaotic neutral character may be unpredictable, but his behavior is not totally random.
(check: he loses focus, so you can't predict with accuracy if he is going to complete the "task" at hand, or not.)

So, I think that when Eugene's time comes to be judged...he'll be chucked into the Chaotic Neutral file.



If this was true that makes you not LG, then parents in general would NEVER enter heaven at all (at least in DnD world)

Eugene is hard on Roy cause Roy is Eugene's son. It is tough love.

[TheMeanDM]

If this was true that makes you not LG, then parents in general would NEVER enter heaven at all (at least in DnD world)

Eugene is hard on Roy cause Roy is Eugene's son. It is tough love.

What?

You're saying that because I chastise my 3 year old daughter for saying "butt" instead of "bottom" and calling her brother "poopy"....and then make her go stand in time out...I'm not Good?

I don't take pleasure in putting my kids in time out.
Eugene is taking pleasure in berating his son for failing at a task which HE himself abandoned.

I don't take pleasure in explaining to her that calling people names isn't nice, and that it hurts other peoples feelings. I wish that she wouldn't have chosen to act that way in the first place.
Eugene takes great pleasure in pointing out all of Roy's failings.

I help my children learn "life lessons" so that they will grow up to be good, kind people that respect others.
Eugene teaches Roy one important thing, albeit while dripping sarcasm: don't jump on the back of a dragon and attack a lich while flying 300' in the air.

[Deuce]

Is it even allowed to judge Eugene on his actions after his last death? Or is the evaluation based only on what was done in life?

[Begemot]

Treating your kid as a means to getting yourself into a realm of eternal bliss and then declaring that you're done with him now that he's 'useless' to you doesn't exactly seem like good behavior to me. That's not so much tough love as it epic selfishness. But being a lousy parent doesn't necessarily mean that Eugene's not good (though my general impression of him is that the didn't do much in life that wasn't motivated by his own self interest). Regardless, he's still a tremendous jerk.

[AKA_Bait]

If this was true that makes you not LG, then parents in general would NEVER enter heaven at all (at least in DnD world)

Eugene is hard on Roy cause Roy is Eugene's son. It is tough love.

I'm not so sure I agree with this. If I had to peg alignments on my folks they would both be LG (maybe NG for my mom) and although both will get on my case from time to time it's (almost) never for selfish reasons and never to the level of what Eugene inflicts upon Roy which borders on emotional abuse. Not supporting a decision on the part of your child and refusing to help is one thing. Intentionally undermining them and manipulating them for your personal ends is another. There's a difference bettween tough love and abusive manipulation.

[AstralFire]

I'm thinking he's CN or TN. He may have done some off-screen good, but this doesn't come off to me as 'good-natured familial ribbing' or 'I'm teaching you a lesson', this comes off as 'I'm a selfish ass'... and we haven't seen *anything* on-screen that says otherwise.

It would be cool if he did do off-screen good stuff and this was eventually made on-screen, though.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Has Eugene ever been called lawful good? If the Giant says he's LG then he is, but I can't remember him ever doing so.

[pjackson]

One little thing that some may have missed...as I did:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html

Eugene: It's also where the souls of recently deceased folks of Good alignment come to be judged before being sent to their final rest.

Many are ASSUMING that Eugene is Lawful Good. That's because he believes himself to have lived a LG life.

We know this because he *thinks* that he is, based on a comment about getting up the mountain to see Violet.

However, I doubt very much that the Beaurocratic Deva of LG will see Eugene as being a Lawful person....and kick him into the "Chaotic" or "Neutral" file.
[cut]
So, I think that when Eugene's time comes to be judged...he'll be chucked into the Chaotic Neutral file.



Eugene has already been judged.
It is on the last page of SoD.

According to Roy his father is Lawful and the evidence shows that.
With a couple of exceptions his whole life has been dedicated to one goal - magical power. There was a time when he chased Xykon, and the time when he got married. With the marriage he kept to the letter of the vows (til death do you part)
I doubt that the oath would keep him out of a chaotic afterlife, the beings in charge would not worry about such things.
I also think that Eugene thinks that turning to magic would be the best thing that Roy could do and that by trying to 'persuade' him that magic is best he is acting for Roy's good.
He is certainly wrong in the methods he is using, but incompetance is not a barrier to being good.

[MCerberus]

Well there are a lot of DnD players that pick one alignment and really really don't play to it. I'm a NG cleric! Hey let's demand the poor villagers pay us more for killing zombies!


I'm LN! I LIKE TO USE FIRE!

[Porthos]

Has Eugene ever been called lawful good? If the Giant says he's LG then he is, but I can't remember him ever doing so.

Comic #495 has Sara explain Eugene's Lawfulness

Origins Spoilers
Roy states that his father is Lawful

SoD Spoilers
Eugene Greenhilt breezes through the "entrance exam" to get into the Celestial Realms, and would be there were it not for the pesky Blood Oath.

Now whether his actions after he died show an alignment change is still up for debate. :smallsmile:

Mind you, I too have a pretty difficulty time seeing Eugene as LG. But that's only because we've seen precious little evidence of him actually acting/intending to be good. I keep trying to give the benefit of the doubt, but with each passing strip (bar a poignant scene in SoD) it becomes harder and harder for me to justify his LG credentials.

[chibibar]

The thing is that we need to expand our "ideal" view on what is consider LG. Eugene is in LG heaven. This just to prove that he is LG. Eugene hasn't been move to any other level and thus......... still LG.

Eugene does these thing to Roy because he KNOWS that Roy can take it. Roy always defended himself and retort back at Eugene, but when Roy decides NOT to do that anymore (go Roy!!! finally taking Deva's advice on cutting it down a bit) Eugene decides to help.

I don't think Roy is suffering any major emotional issue. Roy is a tough character with his own mind and thinking (and not dumb either) Eugene knows that Roy can take the "verbal abuse".

Note that Eugene decides to help Roy anyway once Roy decides no to play Eugene's mental game.

We could argue with each other till we are blue in the face, but as long Eugene remains in the LG waiting room. Eugene is still LG.

I hate to bring up a dead topic (pun intended) but Miko was being just as crass to STRANGERS and still remain LG. So the definition of LG is more broad than most of us like to think.

note: considering that the Deva put Eugene back into his place when interviewing Roy. I can believe that the gods still consider Eugene LG (at least for now)

[waffletaco]

Maybe because Eugene thinks that his son is sort of dumb for not being a wizard--despite Roy's high points in his mental faculties--he thinks he can only relate to him through arguments, because you gotta be smart to argue well. uhh maybe?

[chibibar]

You can be lawful (follow the law right?) and still be a butt-head
you can be good and still be a butt-head

unless Eugene commit an action that would consider evil (thus far... it seems to limit to actual action, not mental action as of yet).

[thereaper]

He's clearly not LG when it comes to his dealings with Roy, but that doesn't automatically disqualify him from being LG, so long as his actions in other places balance it out.

Personally, I don't think the deva and Roy example is a very good one for argument, because I just can't see that one act being enough to turn someone as LG as Roy to TN. If it was indeed enough, then I'm pretty sure that there would be almost no one in Celestia. So she either was exaggerating on that statement, or she is very strict as far as devas go. And if the latter is the case, then it's also possible that Eugene got a very lenient deva.

[chibibar]

He's clearly not LG when it comes to his dealings with Roy, but that doesn't automatically disqualify him from being LG, so long as his actions in other places balance it out.

Personally, I don't think the deva and Roy example is a very good one for argument, because I just can't see that one act being enough to turn someone as LG as Roy to TN. If it was indeed enough, then I'm pretty sure that there would be almost no one in Celestia. So she either was exaggerating on that statement, or she is very strict as far as devas go. And if the latter is the case, then it's also possible that Eugene got a very lenient deva.

I don't think so. Roy knows that Elan couldn't take care of himself. Elan is more than likely to get himself into all sorts of trouble. Roy was also his boss and should have taken care of his party. That is the main point.

Eugene KNOWS that Roy can handle himself. Roy and Eugene has always fight each other (so far that we know of) and never got along well. Even Sara's statement said that Eugene is Lawful. Eugene always try to do good (physically) and never really hurt people in terms of blasting them with magic or take over the world. Maybe we should look into definition of evil or neutral.

A flaw in a person can't prevent you enter heaven (at least in OoTS) We now learn that Eugene is very focus in what he does and most of the time can come off as crass.

I hate to keep bringing this up but Miko was a Paladin and LG. For the longest time, she manage to keep her LG (of course many of us debate she is border line) and still remain LG until an evil act.... after that... we don't know what happen until the giant tells us afterward (if we ever get to know)

I personally think Miko is meaner and crass than Eugene.

Eugene's goal might have been selfish goals, but in the end it is for the greater good (taking out Xykon) but his personal flaw of being VERY focus individual, Eugene can't multi-task (in terms of having a family, loving a wife AND take on Xykon heheh)

[Bluelantern]

Is it even allowed to judge Eugene on his actions after his last death? Or is the evaluation based only on what was done in life?

Exactly what I was thinking, from what the Deva said is likely that is not, however, this only should be fair if people can't change (for better or worst) after death, at least that is my opinion.

To me is really hard to believe that Eugene is good, and much less lawfull, his concentration in one task, but leaving it before it ends, sounds very neutral in the order-chaos axis. To know if it is really good, we would need a closer look to his way of thinking, but so far I wouldn't be surprised if he was put in the TN afterlife.

[chibibar]

I have to agree that I believe in the afterlife, your action doesn't reflect your current alignment.

I also believe that Eugene is probably skirting the LG alignment. Maybe he is doing enough to keep the LG. Remember that intention is more important than action (so said the Deva)

[Jasdoif]

Eugene is quite clearly Lawful. His behavior is highly methodical, he upholds agreements to the letter, he wants things to be a certain way and gets infuriated when they turn out otherwise (see: Roy)....

Whether he's LG/LN/LE is...really indeterminable, with what's presently known. It'd be a lot easier to tell if we've seen Eugene interact with someone he doesn't have some sort of connection with; and it's not positively known if Eugene gets a "free pass" for all his postmortem behavior. I wouldn't be surprised if his interfering with a celestial summoning spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0292.html), and the results it triggered in the mortal world, put him on some sort of flagged-for-reevaluation list.

[Ampersand]

I think the real problem with Eugene is, aside from like three pages in SoD, we only ever see him interacting with Roy. How many people would come off well if you only ever look at them when they're associating with someone they share a mutual loathing with?

Besides, it's not like Roy's been some meek guy whose attempts at reconciliation have been rebuffed by the mean ol' Eugene or anything. Up until now, at least, he always gave at least as good as he got...better, in fact, because the Giant let him have the last word most of the time.

So he's an ass to Roy...big whoop. Roy's not exactly the nicest guy either, but suggest he's not "Good" around here and you get dogpiled. Just look at some of the threads we had while he was being judged. Why should you be able to apply a different standard to Eugene?

[Fussy]

He's clearly not LG when it comes to his dealings with Roy, but that doesn't automatically disqualify him from being LG, so long as his actions in other places balance it out.

I don't think it works like that. Otherwise you end up with sixteenth century europe and people cancelling out sins with religious artifacts... forgotten the name for them.

Essentially, you can't just murder an innocent old man and 'balance it out' by killing loads of evil people and donating all your money to the church. The only way you could 'cancel out' (and I don't like that term) an evil act would be to feel genuine remorse. Miko didn't - she did not die a paladin.

Sucks to be her.

[chibibar]

I think the real problem with Eugene is, aside from like three pages in SoD, we only ever see him interacting with Roy. How many people would come off well if you only ever look at them when they're associating with someone they share a mutual loathing with?

Besides, it's not like Roy's been some meek guy whose attempts at reconciliation have been rebuffed by the mean ol' Eugene or anything. Up until now, at least, he always gave at least as good as he got...better, in fact, because the Giant let him have the last word most of the time.

So he's an ass to Roy...big whoop. Roy's not exactly the nicest guy either, but suggest he's not "Good" around here and you get dogpiled. Just look at some of the threads we had while he was being judged. Why should you be able to apply a different standard to Eugene?

you do have a good point. We only have seen Eugene interact with Roy. Sara did give us a good view that Eugene was a good husband when Eugene was focus on that. We don't see any other interaction at all with other characters or NPC.

[Corsair]

You can't really place a good judgment on Eugene. For one thing, about every time we see him, he's been JUST on the edge of reaching eternal bliss. Remember, in the Dungeon, he berated Roy a lot less, instead just messing with him and mocking him a bit. Heck, he even gave him some valuable advice. I think a lot of his problem is that he's extremely annoyed at Roy screwing up and failing to take out Redcloak. It's not really reasonable, but it's understandable.

Also, keep in mind that this kind of thing isn't that uncommon. Roy and Eugene aren't so different, really. Both are sarcastic, abrasive, and have a tendency to berate others for their failures. The difference is, Roy has the rest of the Order to keep his ego grounded, whereas Eugene, well, didn't.

You also need to take into account that Eugene seems to have gotten more or less the same treatment from Horace Greenhilt. "I'm surprised he liked girls?" It's probably something of a Greenhilt Family Tradition.

[chibibar]

I think the comment on "I'm surprise he like girls" came from the fact that Eugene is so focus that Eugene doesn't see anything else. Eugene (during the time Horace was alive) was soooooo concentrate in being a mage nothing distracts him.

[Porthos]

Here is the A#1 Problem with Eugene Greenhilt:

He violates the "Show, Don't Tell" principle in storytelling.

We are told he is Lawful Good, but his actions seem to suggest otherwise. Now since he is an (at least a semi-)antagonist, that's fine. Not every character in a piece of fiction has to operate under the Show, Don't Tell ideal. But when we see action after action after action, it makes it.... difficult to believe the Tell, as opposed to the Show.

Take Roy. We've been told he is Lawful Good. And we have seen him act like a jerk. But we have also seen him act as one of the most self-sacrificing people in the strip. The same goes for many of the other characters. While they might have had missteps from time to time, we've seen enough of their actions to agree with what we have been told about them. Heck, even Miko had shown Good behavior (saving the Dirt Farmers, Helping out at the Hotel, Vowing to get food for the Watchtower) over the lifetime of the strip.

But Eugene? Precious, precious little has been seen.

Now you can argue all you like that it is because he is not a main character, or that his plot purpose is to antagonize Roy. That's fine as far as it goes. But it still creates a mental roadblock in many readers minds. They are told one thing about a character, but they are shown something quite different.

Just something to chew over in the Eugene debate. :smallsmile:

[Jawajoey]

I don't think we have enough information to judge Eugene.

We've only ever seen him interact with Roy. A single troubled relationship, especially with a family member is hardly enough to challenge someone's alignment. The circumstances of their relationship would have to be a lot more serious for it to be a meaningful reflection on Eugen's character as a whole.

Does his behavior with his son reflect his behavior with others? Probably not. People's relationships with their family members are usually very different than they are with everyone else. And what caused Eugene's jerkiness anyways? He was disappointed that his son didn't want to be a mage. He wanted what he thought was best for Roy. He just happened to be a jerk about it.

We've received one additional testimonial, from Sara, who said that he was great when he was focused, but he was never devoted in the long term. Frankly, that says very little about his alignment. He's not 100% lawful, because he doesn't keep commitments forever, and he's not 100% good, because he is willing to ignore his family. Is that enough to condemn him to even TN? No.

What do we know of his life, his true, meaningful actions? Nothing. He was an adventurer, we don't know what he did. He made a noble commitment to stop and evil lich, he just didn't see it through. He was presumably reckless with something that caused an accident that killed his son. Whatever that means.

In the afterlife, he did something very unLawful, intercept the being of pure good and all that. Then he Lawfully conspired with Shojo to manipulate his son. Before that, he vitally helped his son in his mission by delivering a key prophecy.

Even including the afterlife stuff, which might not even count, you can only make a reasonable-not conclusive- case for him not being LG. We just don't know enough about his actions or his interactions with others to make a sound judgement.

[elliott20]

Lawful Good or not, Eugene is still a class act jerk.

[Demented]

After demonstrating his complete and utter lack of compassion for his son, as well as fully illustrating for us a) his petty nature and b) his selfish nature....how does he ever expect to get into the LG plane?

At best, he's probably Lawful Neutral.

He doesn't deserve eternal happiness.

Well excuse me, but Lawful Neutral deserves eternal happiness quite well enough. They'd just have to enjoy it alongside other Lawful Neutrals.
(Be thy heaven not a vexation upon my spirit but the people in it!)

[NikkTheTrick]

I doubt Eugene is lawful anymore. He hd shown his willingness to break both mortal (participation in Sojo's scheme) and divine (impersonating Being of Pure Law and Good) laws.

He is driven only by 2 things:

1. His desire to have the oath fulfilled.

2. His desire to tell Roy how worthless he is since he is not a wisard.

Eugene got his son arrested. His Miko encounter nearly cost Roy his life. Royllingly put life of his own son in danger for the sake of fulfillment of the oath. That not any better than Roy's abandonment of Elan, which was an evil act and would bar Roy from Celestia if he didn't recognize the mistake. Eugene never apologised to Roy.

Last but not least, Eugene abandoned his family in a blink of n eye. He does not value them any more than dirt. "That's it?? Agreed." is a nice last nail in Eugene's Lawfullness and Goodness coffin.

[Bluelantern]

Lawful Good or not, Eugene is still a class act jerk.


QFT

QFFT!

[Jasdoif]

I doubt Eugene is lawful anymore. He hd shown his willingness to break both mortal (participation in Sojo's scheme) and divine (impersonating Being of Pure Law and Good) laws.Having a Lawful alignment does not necessarily mean you obey the relevant laws. It means you prefer methodical and systematic approaches. And Eugene's behavior is quite structured.

[NikkTheTrick]

Having a Lawful alignment does not necessarily mean you obey the relevant laws. It means you prefer methodical and systematic approaches. And Eugene's behavior is quite structured.
Roy's appriach was quite systematic after the trial. There was nothing "unstructured" about working behind SG backs. What did the Being of Pure Law and Good say about that?

- Tricking your friends into participating in a sidequest to fix your sword -- much less conspiring to work behind the backs of an order of Paladins [Which Eugene also did] -- are not acts that scream lawful. Using Chaotic means to fulfill Lawful obligations strikes me as fairly Neutral.

[Armond]

well.. the problem is that we are going by our personal standard of good. We have to look at the universal way.

Does Eugene do anything that would harm others (in this term killing good people) no.

Does Eugene EVER thought about hurting other people. No.

Does Eugene trick people to hurt good people? not really. This maybe debatable but in the end, Eugene is trying to do good things and never abuse his power for evil purpose. Thus he is still LG.

We tend to think LG are more stick up their butt or have to be "super good" I love the Giant way of portraying a LG person via Roy. This is a good example of what a LG should be played.

Being sarcastic and mean (in terms of not doing evil) is normal.... we also shown that side via Miko.

Then we saw the other side of LG via Hinjo.

All are LG, but show different personality. We don't have to follow a cookie cutter LG rules like shown in the book. They are guidelines after all.

It was either the DMG or the BoED that said that not doing bad things doesn't make you a good person... "Solidly neutral, perhaps, but not good" were the words.

[Jasdoif]

Roy's appriach was quite systematic after the trial. There was nothing "unstructured" about working behind SG backs. What did the Being of Pure Law and Good say about that?

- Tricking your friends into participating in a sidequest to fix your sword -- much less conspiring to work behind the backs of an order of Paladins [Which Eugene also did] -- are not acts that scream lawful. Using Chaotic means to fulfill Lawful obligations strikes me as fairly Neutral.And apparently it wasn't non-lawful enough to keep Roy out of LG heaven (and presumably an LG alignment), so I don't see where you're trying to go with this.

[Alfryd]

After demonstrating his complete and utter lack of compassion for his son, as well as fully illustrating for us a) his petty nature and b) his selfish nature....how does he ever expect to get into the LG plane?
It's been generally implied- and has become pretty darned obvious in the latest strip- that Eugene's only method of establishing rapport with his son is through exchanging volleys of caustic verbal abuse. Eugene does care about his son, but doesn't really know how to express it in gentler terms without seeming weak.

It's for much the same reason that Roy can't say a civil word to Eugene most of the time, despite the fact he genuinely desires his approval. If you look at the strip where Eugene first reveals that he engineered Roy's capture and trial by the Sapphire Guard, you'll notice something very, very telling-

Non-startling Revelations (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0292.html)
"Wow, so you went through all that trouble just so you could talk to me and congratulate me on defeating Xykon and fulfilling your oath? You really do care..."

Roy is initally pleased. Only when he finds out that Xykon was not destroyed does Roy become incensed. Because that implies that his dear 'ol Da isn't about to congratulate him at all.
Think about it. Roy was actually happy enough to be dragged over half a continent in chains and beaten within an inch of his life twice over if only he could hear a few words of earnest praise from his Pa. And, when he doesn't get that, he immediately covers up his disappointment with rage. Big, steaming piles of rage. Which actually shocks Eugene into silence.

Anyways. My two cents.

[Lord]

....Alfryd, that is a very good point, course it still doesn't excuse Eugene but it's some good food for thought.

[Darkcomet]

Personally, I think the question is not whether he will get in the plane or not but how he knows about the free sex and booze without having been there.

[factotum]

Regardng whether he is good, has he ever been seen to be doing anything that actuall classes as good?

Why would it matter if he hasn't been seen doing anything good? The parts of Eugene's life that we've actually SEEN are microscopic compared to the parts we haven't--he could have spent 50 years doing nothing but good deeds, we just haven't seen those parts of his life! In fact, 95% of what we DO know about him comes from his interaction with his son, and there has clearly been mutual antagonism between the two of them for a very long time (note that Roy pretty much admitted to Horace that he only chose to be a fighter because it was the career choice his father least wanted him to make). Basing an assessment of Eugene's character purely on that would make as much sense as saying Roy is Evil because he abandoned Elan to the bandits, without taking into account any of his other deeds in the strips to date.

[Yogi]

If this was true that makes you not LG, then parents in general would NEVER enter heaven at all (at least in DnD world)So, parents in the D&D world regularly say things like "You're useless to me, or should I say 'even more useless'".

Try say that to your kid, I dare you.

[NikkTheTrick]

And apparently it wasn't non-lawful enough to keep Roy out of LG heaven (and presumably an LG alignment), so I don't see where you're trying to go with this.
Going on with Deva's speech:

- I don't think my superiors would blink if I kicked your case to the Neutral Good afterlife, but there is one factor preventing me: You're trying.

Now, how much is Eugene trying? He engaged in a whole behind the SG affair and what he does now? He abandons his family within a blink of an eye...

[Jasdoif]

Now, how much is Eugene trying? He engaged in a whole behind the SG affair and what he does now? He abandons his family within a blink of an eye...I got the impression he'd already given up on his family, in the same way his family appears to given up on him; and so it was easy to voice what he'd already decided. Not a decision made in the "blink of an eye". But that's just me.

Besides that, Eugene has six more decades worth of life experience then Roy does. And we have very little idea what he did with all that time, except for a few failed attempts to find Xykon; you can't properly judge an alignment based on the minor subset of behavior we've seen of Eugene that largely takes place after his dead. And an LG deva might be inclined to overlook/forgive extenuating circumstances, like your own careful plans for getting into the afterlife being smashed because your own son wanted to show you up.

Regardless, I'm sure Roy can attest Eugene really is trying...although not in the same way that you mean :smalltongue:

[A Quiet Person]

Well, I don't know about alignment, but Eugene is a complete tool.

In the history of the comic, we have seen some less objectionable sides of Eugene, particularly in SoD. However, he is a lousy family man.

I must admit that I was undecided about whether Eugene was a jerk or whether he was just showing Roy tough love - that only his relationship with Roy was dysfunctional. But the latest strip does a lot to settle that.

It's the ease with which he drops any interest in all members of his family. Not just Roy, but he seems to have no desire whatsoever to be reunited with any deceased member of his family. He just seems to cast what should be emotional ties aside far too easily.

He might have some interest in his still-living daughter, but that would be a strong indication that his interest in others can be conditional on their appreciation of magic and wizardry. That's really shallow and ego-serving parenting.

-

S'funny how so many value judgements of characters are made on this forum using the alignment system. I've always thought that the Giant's regard for the alignment system was like his regard for the rules of D&D in general - something that he applies to the setting, but also spoofs for all its failings. I think that when the Giant wants us to empathise with characters, he shows us their capacity for love, compassion, honour and heroism. How is determining who has what alignment on paper a better 'barometer' than those moments in the story?

Perhaps we could speculate that Eugene has had a life in which he was at times heroic and caring. But there must be something significant in the fact that the story has seldom shown us anything in Eugene resembling such qualities.

[The Extinguisher]

Neither of them would admit it, but I'd imagine they love each other very much. They may not like each other, and have the kind of relationship that can at best be described as love-hate and at worst as sado-masochistic, but there's still love.

Eugene seems shocked that Roy backed down.

[elliott20]

well, while Eugene is still a **** to me, I get the sense that he's just got a lot of pent-up rage within him. From the SoD, (which I just got and read cover to cover) he had to make a tough decision about his life. He had a family and his inability to empathize with his family not withstanding, he made a choice on their behalves. True, he's not winning father of the year awards, but there in lies a part of him that has made a decision that is genuinely out of care.

He is just extremely flawed as a person, and his character still has growing to do.

But that's the beauty of afterlife cosmology though: just because you're dead doesn't mean your story ends there.

[Flubadubdub]

I think one important fact that everyone has missed is that eugene has been stuck there for how long?

Imagine what that would do to you, no sense of time, no pleasures, nothing around you changing. The amount of stress that you would go through :smalleek:

People can argue all they want that he's a horrible person and deserves to be chaotic evil or whatever, but truth be told, I truly feel sorry for him. Think, What is the worst rash decision you have ever made. Does it compare to having your soul bound to all eternity a moment away from true happyness?

Eugenes biggest let down about Roy is the fact he didn't become a wizard. Eugene probably thinks that if he had, he would of studied more about liches and known that they can regenerate.

And as said before by numerous people, we really have seen very little of his life. Insults towards a son are not going to be taken very seriously when compared to something like abandoning a friend to some bandits.

Plus, ever think Eugene might be especially hard on Roy after the death of Roy's little brother? We know Eugene is somehow at fault and as hard as he is on Roy, I think he wants the best for him. In his eyes, that is to be a wizard, which Roy has flat out said no to, which means no bonding time, total different interests, with a sprinkle of hostility likely to follow.

Somewhat simular to a dad who wants to play ball with his son, and the son only wishes to draw, or just sit on a computer. Eugenes a bad father for not accepting his son as he is, but that doesn't make him a bad person, and if Roy became a Wizard, everyone would have the exact opposite response to his alignment.

As for not being lawful, psh, you don't think Roy would tie up someone to offer aid to the order if he felt a real need for it?

[Ampersand]

Why would it matter if he hasn't been seen doing anything good? The parts of Eugene's life that we've actually SEEN are microscopic compared to the parts we haven't--he could have spent 50 years doing nothing but good deeds, we just haven't seen those parts of his life!

According to his tombstone in Origins, not counting the time he spent dead while waiting to be rezzed he was 78 when he died of old age.

But I think Porthos hit the nail on the head...main problem with Eugene is that we're never shown him doing anything "good" outside of a few excerpts in SoD. We really only see him when he's at his worst.

So, is Eugene a jerk? Absotively. A bad father? Yeah, but it seems like he and Roy have been doing the mutual hostility thing for quite some time (at least two decades). Is he a bad person? We can't really judge, but the fact that he's sitting in the LG waiting room and

SoD spoiler
breezed past his interview...the worst the Deva could say about him prior to noticing the outstanding Blood Oath was that he swore, had poor manners and edited his own Wikipedia entry... seems to suggest otherwise.

[chibibar]

So, parents in the D&D world regularly say things like "You're useless to me, or should I say 'even more useless'".

Try say that to your kid, I dare you.

no.. you miss the point. As you can tell in the strip Eugene was trying to bait Roy into an argument. It seems the only bonding 'experience' they have for each other is arguing. (interesting note on that since the Roy's Archon talks about the Hall of Debate...... both of them would love the place since they both love to argue)

The moment Roy STOP arguing, Eugene jump the gun and wants to help. There is a difference of truly meaning it and just bantering (more or less)

Haven't you ever had argument with your parents and said "I hate you?" or something like that. People say things out of anger, but very few say they are sorry..... especially parents...

My parents will NEVER admit they are wrong cause that is the way they are wired. (note.. they will never admit they are wrong to me.... but to other like co-workers and such they do.... just the kids)

[Janmorel]

So, parents in the D&D world regularly say things like "You're useless to me, or should I say 'even more useless'".

Try say that to your kid, I dare you.

Roy's not a kid. He's almost 30. Insulting your adult children isn't nice, but it's only evil if the adult children are mentally impaired or something. He and his father have a troubled relationship and they only communicate by verbal sparring, but Roy gives just as good as he gets. So Roy mocks Eugene when he gets into Celestia before him (490, 491) and Eugene mocks Roy when it turns out he needs someone to scry for him. Par for the dysfunctional course.


Personally, I think the question is not whether he will get in the plane or not but how he knows about the free sex and booze without having been there.

Horace: Dumb Fighter get bored with beer and pretty girls. Come visit genius Wizard son.
How's life on the cloud going, Einstein?

Eugene::furious:

Father/Son relationships are complicated.

[Yogi]

Roy's not a kid. He's almost 30. Insulting your adult children isn't nice, but it's only evil if the adult children are mentally impaired or something.More assertions without evidence, or even a sense of context. Unless all parents say similar things to their children then my point, as made against the original argument as opposed to your strawman, still stands.

Oh, and by the way. As the Roy bashers continue to point out with glee, Roy's sarcastic comments did count against him. Well, what's true for Roy is also true for Eugene.

He and his father have a troubled relationship and they only communicate by verbal sparring, but Roy gives just as good as he gets. So Roy mocks Eugene when he gets into Celestia before him (490, 491) and Eugene mocks Roy when it turns out he needs someone to scry for him. Par for the dysfunctional course.O RLY??

Strip 15: Eugene made 4 insults, Roy made 0.
Strip 39: Eugene 2, Roy 0
S 78: E 2, R 0
S 291: E 2, R 2
S 292: E 2, R 1
S 293: E 0, R 5
S 484: E 1, R 0
S 485: E 11, R 5
S 486: E 1, R 1
S 490: E 0, R 1
S 491: E 0, R 3
S 499: E 1, R 0
S 500: E 2, R 1

Total: Eugene 35, Roy 19

So that makes you "Roy gives as good as he gets" statement, a lie. It's not even close.

Moral of the story: When lying, make sure your lies take more than 15 min. to fact check. Also, if something is easy to fact check, be sure to do so.

[Janmorel]

More assertions without evidence, or even a sense of context. Unless all parents say similar things to their children then my point, as made against the original argument as opposed to your strawman, still stands.


First of all, you either don't understand what a strawman argument is, or you're being deliberately ironic. Second of all, unless "all parents" have to act exactly the same way, your argument doesn't make any sense. And third of all, you seem to be taking this all very personally. You might want to take a giant step out of the playground and consider that you may be projecting.

[Yogi]

First of all, you either don't understand what a strawman argument is, or you're being deliberately ironic. Second of all, unless "all parents" have to act exactly the same way, your argument doesn't make any sense. And third of all, you seem to be taking this all very personally. You might want to take a giant step out of the playground and consider that you may be projecting.Uh, your argument is one giant non sequitur. How does that tie into any of my points, or any of YOUR points for that matter. Not to mention, once again, the complete and utter lack of evidence, argument, or pretty much anything besides unsupported assertions.

[NikkTheTrick]

Uh... can we skip personal attacks and keep discussing fiery pits of hell Eugene is going to? :smallwink:

[Bluelantern]

Uh... can we skip personal attacks and keep discussing fiery pits of hell Eugene is going to? :smallwink:

well how about...

The tavern of ugly girls who still don't want to go out with you.

The debate how where you are always wrong, ALWAYS!

The dungeons where YOU are the low level encounter.

:smallwink:

[NikkTheTrick]

well how about...

The tavern of ugly girls who still don't want to go out with you.

The debate how where you are always wrong, ALWAYS!

The dungeons where YOU are the low level encounter.

:smallwink:

I was thinking more along the lines of Belkar's Romantic Interest thread stuff :smallamused: