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View Full Version : What do Wish, Limited Wish and Miracle actually do?



Adumbration
2007-11-02, 11:13 AM
I'm a newbie, and have no access to any of those in any near future, but still, I'm curious. What do they actually do? In the books at least the Miracle has a very brief description (if I remember correct) along the lines "Calls upon a divine intervention that costs XP".

So. What can you do with them?

The_Werebear
2007-11-02, 11:14 AM
Replicate spells, primarily.

However, you can try to do more if you wish to risk a negative effect from wording badly.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-02, 11:16 AM
Miracle
Evocation
Level: Clr 9, Luck 9
Components: V, S, XP; see text
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: See text
Target, Effect, or Area: See text
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: Yes

You donít so much cast a miracle as request one. You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede.

A miracle can do any of the following things.

Duplicate any cleric spell of 8th level or lower (including spells to which you have access because of your domains).
Duplicate any other spell of 7th level or lower.
Undo the harmful effects of certain spells, such as feeblemind or insanity.
Have any effect whose power level is in line with the above effects.
If the miracle has any of the above effects, casting it has no experience point cost.

Alternatively, a cleric can make a very powerful request. Casting such a miracle costs the cleric 5,000 XP because of the powerful divine energies involved. Examples of especially powerful miracles of this sort could include the following.

Swinging the tide of a battle in your favor by raising fallen allies to continue fighting.
Moving you and your allies, with all your and their gear, from one plane to another through planar barriers to a specific locale with no chance of error.
Protecting a city from an earthquake, volcanic eruption, flood, or other major natural disaster.
In any event, a request that is out of line with the deityís (or alignmentís) nature is refused.

A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal, but the save DCs are as for a 9th-level spell. When a miracle duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay that cost. When a miracle spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 100 gp, you must provide that component.

XP Cost
5,000 XP (for some uses of the miracle spell; see above).


Limited Wish
Universal
Level: Sor/Wiz 7
Components: V, S, XP
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: See text
Target, Effect, or Area: See text
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: None; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes

A limited wish lets you create nearly any type of effect. For example, a limited wish can do any of the following things.

Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower, even if itís of a prohibited school.
Duplicate any other spell of 4th level or lower, even if itís of a prohibited school.
Undo the harmful effects of many spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects, such as a single creature automatically hitting on its next attack or taking a -7 penalty on its next saving throw.
A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal (but the save DC is for a 7th-level spell). When a limited wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay that cost or 300 XP, whichever is more. When a limited wish spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 1,000 gp, you must provide that component.

XP Cost
300 XP or more (see above).


Wish
Universal
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, XP
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: See text
Target, Effect, or Area: See text
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: Yes

Wish is the mightiest spell a wizard or sorcerer can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality to better suit you.

Even wish, however, has its limits.

A wish can produce any one of the following effects.

Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower even if itís of a prohibited school.
Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower even if itís of a prohibited school.
Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value.
Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.
Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.
Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish. A wish can never restore the experience point loss from casting a spell or the level or Constitution loss from being raised from the dead.
Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes, one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from losing an experience level.
Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponentís successful save, a foeís successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friendís failed save, and so on. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

Duplicated spells allow saves and spell resistance as normal (but save DCs are for 9th-level spells).

Material Component
When a wish duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 10,000 gp, you must provide that component.

XP Cost
The minimum XP cost for casting wish is 5,000 XP. When a wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay 5,000 XP or that cost, whichever is more. When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.



There.

VerdugoExplode
2007-11-02, 11:16 AM
wish http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm
and miracle http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm
do exactly what they say they do.

You can ask for more but then you're at the mercy of the DM, which is rarely, if ever, a good thing. Although a DM who twists your words when asking for a listed effect is just a horrible person.

MCerberus
2007-11-02, 11:19 AM
If the effect you are duplicating isn't mentioned explicitly in the spell description, you run the risk of something horrible happening (wish for gold, you get turned into gold and you have to be wished out of that state). It's up to your DM what constitutes "in line with these effects" and you're at his mercy if you want to do some things.

edit- Azerian can you spoil the spell descriptions please?

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-02, 11:28 AM
Done and done.

Adumbration
2007-11-02, 11:51 AM
Thanks everyone. Especially for Azerian, for the great explonation.

Hyfigh
2007-11-02, 01:25 PM
I'm a newbie, and have no access to any of those in any near future, but still, I'm curious. What do they actually do? In the books at least the Miracle has a very brief description (if I remember correct) along the lines "Calls upon a divine intervention that costs XP".

So. What can you do with them?

Kind of off the subject, but helpful for you non-the-less.

The SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/) has core + some more rules for D&D so long as you have internet access.

Aquaseafoam
2007-11-02, 02:52 PM
Don't forget Reality Revision.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/realityRevision.htm

Chronos
2007-11-02, 06:08 PM
You can ask for more but then you're at the mercy of the DM, which is rarely, if ever, a good thing. Although a DM who twists your words when asking for a listed effect is just a horrible person.I kind of miss 2nd edition, when no Wish was explicitly safe. Wish was a spell you cast in between sessions, after thinking for three days straight about what loopholes your DM might twist you through, and how to close as many of them as you could. And gods help you if you were getting the wish granted by some creature who didn't like you, like an efreet you summoned or imprisoned.

Sornjss Lichdom
2007-11-02, 06:09 PM
And they make some really nifty magic items.

EDIT: they dont create them, they are just used in the creation of rings of wizardy and such.

Starbuck_II
2007-11-02, 06:10 PM
If the effect you are duplicating isn't mentioned explicitly in the spell description, you run the risk of something horrible happening (wish for gold, you get turned into gold and you have to be wished out of that state). It's up to your DM what constitutes "in line with these effects" and you're at his mercy if you want to do some things.

edit- Azerian can you spoil the spell descriptions please?

Actually gold is explicitly described as 25, 000 gp limit.

Kantolin
2007-11-02, 07:36 PM
I kind of miss 2nd edition, when no Wish was explicitly safe. Wish was a spell you cast in between sessions, after thinking for three days straight about what loopholes your DM might twist you through

Pah. Resulting in players plunking down books in front of the DM with their legal balances, and fun arguments about 'But it can't do that!' 'Yes it can!' leading to gaping sore spots.

While rather wrecking things for people who were attempting to be reasonable with things. "You asked for a good-quality Blue Tunic to wear? You get a Blue Tunic which is actually a demon and it eats you DAHAHAHA that's what you get for being capable of casting level 9 spells!"

I'm very fond of the guidelines.

Jothki
2007-11-02, 09:18 PM
I'm a fan of viewing Wish as having a rough amount of capability, and trying to carry out a given request within that capability by any means possible. It won't screw you over unless it has to in order to be able to carry out your request. Carefully wording an unreasonable request will simply make the spell fail, since it has no way to satisfy your conditions.

Skyserpent
2007-11-02, 09:41 PM
What's that one ultimate "wish" clause that everyone should add to the end of any wish keeping anything bad from happening?

MCerberus
2007-11-02, 09:44 PM
Hmm.. if you Wish someone dead what spell does it try and auto-replicate? If none have any viable options does it just give someone a heart murmur once and say "it was dead for a portion of a second. There you go"

leperkhaun
2007-11-02, 09:46 PM
One important thing to remember about wish, it only requires a verbal component and xp. Which means if a high level wizard is caught in a death grapple, you can wish yourself out of it.

It has a high costs, but if its that or die......

Zeful
2007-11-02, 10:01 PM
What's that one ultimate "wish" clause that everyone should add to the end of any wish keeping anything bad from happening?

Like this?

With harm to none.
May all astrological correspondences be correct
for this working, and may this spell not reverse
or place upon me any curse.
So mote it be!

Or at least that's how it works in the Wiccan religon when they ask the universe for stuff.

VerdugoExplode
2007-11-02, 10:04 PM
I always thought adding "...and the proceeding will be carried out to both the letter and spirit of my request, and not warped in any way I would deem unacceptable."

It might work, but then again is anything really safe from DM wrath?

MCerberus
2007-11-02, 10:06 PM
Yes I believe the measure was added to give the DMs the last laugh when the PC thinks they've found some crazy super solution to something.

Chronos
2007-11-02, 10:30 PM
I'm a fan of viewing Wish as having a rough amount of capability, and trying to carry out a given request within that capability by any means possible.I always figured that there were actually three types of wish. First, there was the wish granted by a benevolent being. Like, say, if you just rescued a powerful outsider, and he wanted to reward you, he might grant you a wish. In this case, the wish will be granted as nearly as possible to the spirit of your request (though still within some limits). With this type of wish, if you said "I wish for a million gold pieces", poof, a pile of gold pieces would appear. Or possibly, if the being were feeling particularly nice, a pile of gems worth a million gold pieces, or the deed to a piece of land worth that much, or some other more manageable form of treasure. This, obviously, is the best kind of wish, but it's also the hardest to come by.

Second, there's the wish granted by a malevolent being. For instance, you've just imprisoned a powerful devil, and will release it only on condition of it granting you a wish. In this case, your wish will be granted in the worst way possible consistent with your wording. So if, in this case, you wish for a million gold pieces, it'll materialize right above your head, killing you. Wishes of this sort are never worth getting; don't even bother trying.

Third, there's the neutral wish. This is what you get when you cast the spell yourself, or use a Ring of Three Wishes, or the like. This wish will do the least thing possible consistent with your request. If you use this type to wish for a million gold pieces, you'll get a million gold pieces, but each one will be the size of a speck of dust. Wishes of this sort typically won't hurt you (unless that's the easiest way to fulfill the wish), but they're usually not worth the effort, unless you word your request very carefully.

MrNexx
2007-11-02, 10:31 PM
I limit wishes to a number of clauses; I had a player try to turn in a 10 page, typed, wish... one sentence (many, many, many subordinate clauses, semicolons, and parenthetical asides) and I simply said "Ok, say it in one breath."

Aquillion
2007-11-02, 11:57 PM
I limit wishes to a number of clauses; I had a player try to turn in a 10 page, typed, wish... one sentence (many, many, many subordinate clauses, semicolons, and parenthetical asides) and I simply said "Ok, say it in one breath."Wish has a casting time of one standard action, so I think it's fair to tell players that they must be able to speak the entire text of their wish within (roughly) six seconds for it to work. Obviously, give them some slack and don't time them unless they really go out of line, but it's good for when they try something like that.

I agree with Jothki, though. Instead of just basically saying "beyond this, the DM has to decide", I think Wish ought to describe in detail exactly how much power the spell has--how much it can accomplish, and what it definitely can't accomplish. Yes, setting clear bounderies would take a bit of the fun out of it, but when players start trying to word totally absurd wishes it's going to cause problems anyway... it's better to have rules that keep it within some sort of limits.

MCerberus
2007-11-03, 12:02 AM
Well it DOES strongly caution against wishing for immortality via example... but that's not in the SRD.

TheOOB
2007-11-03, 12:06 AM
Just remember that as a DM, don't try to screw over the player's wish unless they wish for something that is obviously asking for trouble. I follow a few general guidelines when fulfilling wishes

-If the wish uses one of the preset examples in the book it succeeds automatically.
-If the wish can be fulfilled by using one of the preset examples in the book (such as by emulating greater teleport when they wish to be brought to safety) it will.
-The wish will affect the smallest number of people possible. Altering reality is difficult, and altering reality for hundreds of people is even more difficult.
-If the wish is outside the power of the spell, it will fulfill it to the best of it's ability.
-The wish doesn't screw over the caster unless they do something really, really stupid, such as wishing for immortality and getting temporal stasis'd

These guidelines assume that a player is casting wish, since the player is the one bending reality, it is assumed that they will try for a beneficial result and don't need to worry about wording their intent properly. Note, some wishes you will only get partial fulfillment, or no fulfillment at all, wish is still only a 9th level spell.

When you wish from a creature or nasty item, however, then your wish can be preverted, especially if it doesn't like you.

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-03, 12:06 AM
I always thought adding "...and the proceeding will be carried out to both the letter and spirit of my request, and not warped in any way I would deem unacceptable."

It might work, but then again is anything really safe from DM wrath?

I think perhaps that at that point, if the DM isn't going to grant what you want, the spell simply fails completely. What happens is it can't grant your request, and it can't twist your request in order to grant it another way, so it simply does nothing at all.

Maybe the spell returns:

"ValueError: math domain error"

Chronos
2007-11-03, 12:11 AM
Wish has a casting time of one standard action, so I think it's fair to tell players that they must be able to speak the entire text of their wish within (roughly) six seconds for it to work.Yeah, in third edition, but in second, it had a casting time of "as long as it takes you to say it".

MrNexx, that's what I call a wasted opportunity. In ten pages, I'm sure that you could have found a mistake somewhere, which you could then have very poetically turned against him (if nothing else, there's always the old trick of saying "Granted", as soon as he hit a point where the grammar allowed for a complete independent clause). And I think that I would have treated it as a malevolent wish, instead of a neutral one, as well, because even the impersonal forces of reality don't like being twisted that much.

EDIT:

Maybe the spell returns:

"ValueError: math domain error"I seriously want to make a cleric who takes the Math domain, now. Do you know what deities offer it?

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-03, 12:12 AM
I always figured that there were actually three types of wish. First, there was the wish granted by a benevolent being. Like, say, if you just rescued a powerful outsider, and he wanted to reward you, he might grant you a wish. In this case, the wish will be granted as nearly as possible to the spirit of your request (though still within some limits). With this type of wish, if you said "I wish for a million gold pieces", poof, a pile of gold pieces would appear. Or possibly, if the being were feeling particularly nice, a pile of gems worth a million gold pieces, or the deed to a piece of land worth that much, or some other more manageable form of treasure. This, obviously, is the best kind of wish, but it's also the hardest to come by.

Second, there's the wish granted by a malevolent being. For instance, you've just imprisoned a powerful devil, and will release it only on condition of it granting you a wish. In this case, your wish will be granted in the worst way possible consistent with your wording. So if, in this case, you wish for a million gold pieces, it'll materialize right above your head, killing you. Wishes of this sort are never worth getting; don't even bother trying.

Third, there's the neutral wish. This is what you get when you cast the spell yourself, or use a Ring of Three Wishes, or the like. This wish will do the least thing possible consistent with your request. If you use this type to wish for a million gold pieces, you'll get a million gold pieces, but each one will be the size of a speck of dust. Wishes of this sort typically won't hurt you (unless that's the easiest way to fulfill the wish), but they're usually not worth the effort, unless you word your request very carefully.

I like this interpretation. The middle paragraph is right out of Wishmaster (and also says a lot about what using Planar Binding to get what you want as suggested before in other threads is going to lead to), while the last reminds me of the behavior of electricity: it follows the path of least resistance.

Hawriel
2007-11-03, 12:15 AM
WOW I never thought I would say this about a high level D&D spell in 3rd ed. Miracle is totaly underpowered and quite limited in what they say it can do.

Its divine intervention so pretty much any thing that you ask your god to happen will happen if said god thinks your request is worth granting. Or you say oh dear god Im F*(^(# please help and somthing may happen.

Wish on the other hand. Thats just silly. It can bight you in the butt it might not. Totaly deppends on what wish your asking, who your asking, why your asking and how your asking. My DM with out saying it will mess with you more depending on how long and lawyerd up your wish is. The more complicated the more messed up the outcome may be. Also a selfless wish is more likly not going to bight you in the butt.

TheOOB
2007-11-03, 12:18 AM
Where does it ever say you have to explain your wish spell. Despite the name, the spell doesn't have you ask for anything. It's when you are receiving a wish from an efreeti or something you have to be careful. Miracle usually doesn't require wording either, because it's assumed that a level 17+ cleric is in their dieties good graces.

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-03, 12:21 AM
Where does it ever say you have to explain your wish spell.

Glad to help!

Page 302, last paragraph, beginning with, "You may try to ..."

If you're going to wish for something other than one of the preset options, common sense dictates you're going to have to say what you're wishing for. How you word that request might, I don't know ... matter. Since you're going to be at the mercy of the DM once you spit it out.

But hey, do whatever you think you can survive. :smallwink:

Green Bean
2007-11-03, 12:26 AM
WOW I never thought I would say this about a high level D&D spell in 3rd ed. Miracle is totaly underpowered and quite limited in what they say it can do.

Its divine intervention so pretty much any thing that you ask your god to happen will happen if said god thinks your request is worth granting. Or you say oh dear god Im F*(^(# please help and somthing may happen.


I wouldn't say it's underpowered. I mean, it's basically a variable spell slot; you can turn it into pretty much anything a cleric would need without even needing an extra action. A wizard would kill for that sort of versatility.

Douglas
2007-11-03, 12:49 AM
WOW I never thought I would say this about a high level D&D spell in 3rd ed. Miracle is totaly underpowered and quite limited in what they say it can do.
On the contrary, Miracle is a major part of Codzilla at high levels. It allows a 17+ level cleric to go outside of his class spell list. There are a fair number of spells supposedly balanced by only being accessible to particular classes - Giant Size is the most obvious example, being an EXTREMELY powerful buff spell only available to high level Wu Jen, a class that normally has no place trying to be a fighter. A cleric can duplicate that with Miracle without giving up any of his usual fighting prowess and, unlike for Wish, he does not have to pay XP to do so.

Hawriel
2007-11-03, 03:21 AM
Umm the last two posts are proving my point. Your talking about a miracle, freakin divine intervention. Its really cool because its really a spell that can cast any spell ever written by WOTC? Now if god intervening happens to be some thing the DM can use a spell for a quick way of helping out fine. BUT this is my problem its not just that the spell is written in a very narrow scope its the fact that if the spell MIRACLE really creats a high level spell that its really a joke. Why? Because any finger wagler or guy with prayer beeds that can actualy perform magic is a miracle worker. That statue of Marry that cried blood miracle, Jesus's resuraction miracle, Mosus parting the red sea freakin MIRACLE. Now if you ask god for a miracle by casting the spell miracle I expect a freakin miracle. I mean a D&D miracle, what would a god inpired miracle be in a land whare a mortal can cast meteor sworm? Really another meteor sworm?

I guess my real problem is that the spell is named miracle. Its purly semantic. It really should be called greater wish. In a world whare any cleric with enough browny points with a god can cast oh lets say resurection, miracles are meaningless.

AslanCross
2007-11-03, 03:50 AM
Um...



Alternatively, a cleric can make a very powerful request. Casting such a miracle costs the cleric 5,000 XP because of the powerful divine energies involved. Examples of especially powerful miracles of this sort could include the following.

* Swinging the tide of a battle in your favor by raising fallen allies to continue fighting.
* Moving you and your allies, with all your and their gear, from one plane to another through planar barriers to a specific locale with no chance of error.
* Protecting a city from an earthquake, volcanic eruption, flood, or other major natural disaster.


I think that's what you were looking for. Given the right situations, you probably could get a Red Sea parting there.

It may depend greatly on your choice of deity. You probably won't be able to pray to Bane for a miracle by saying "O Lord of Darkness, please, think of the kittens." You may, however, be able to ask him this: "O Bane, Lord of Darkness, bring us to Cyric's doorstep that we might bestow upon him the smacking of a lifetime."

Strangely enough, clerics who worship ideologies instead of deities might be able to ask for more varied results.

Aquillion
2007-11-03, 05:18 AM
I think perhaps that at that point, if the DM isn't going to grant what you want, the spell simply fails completely. What happens is it can't grant your request, and it can't twist your request in order to grant it another way, so it simply does nothing at all.I would still prefer to have something happen. They burned a 9th level spell and 5000 xp, they at least get some effect, even if it's not the (absurd) result they wanted. I'd give them a scaled-down version of their request, even if it specifically goes against their terms (e.g. a temporary version when they specified a permanent one.) If they wish for an excessive magical item or artifact, they might just get a non-magical one, or one with only part of the necessary powers... or a map to where they can get the real thing, of course, if you want to be generous. Someone who wishes to be a deity might get a temporary "fake" divine rank that tricks others into thinking they're divine. And so on.

In this case, it's not exactly their Wish being subverted, it's the spell itself running out of steam... like it says in the description, even Wish has limits. If you wish for too much, it makes sense that it'll run out of power and stop working halfway through.


Where does it ever say you have to explain your wish spell. Despite the name, the spell doesn't have you ask for anything. It's when you are receiving a wish from an efreeti or something you have to be careful. Miracle usually doesn't require wording either, because it's assumed that a level 17+ cleric is in their dieties good graces.
At the very beginning of the spell:
Wish is the mightiest spell a wizard or sorcerer can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality to better suit you.Yes, you could argue that it just means by speaking the words of the spell... but that's silly. By that logic, any spell with a verbal component would fit the same description. The only reasonable way that that sentence can be interpreted is to mean that you have to speak your wish itself aloud.


Strangely enough, clerics who worship ideologies instead of deities might be able to ask for more varied results.I disagree. Deities have more complex natures; yes, that can be tricky, but it also lets you get more out of them. To use your example, you could convince Bane to do something that might otherwise be against his nature if you could work a way of striking against one of his enemies into it. (Say, you could request a miracle to make peace between warring factions so that you can go beat up Cyric, or even convince him to do a rainbows-and-sunshine miracle if you told him it would let him win followers from the other gods. "Oh Bane, save ye these kittens, because the priests of Cyric and Mystra totally couldn't do it.")

If you worship the abstract concept of hatred, though, you really can't work around it.

Mordokai
2007-11-03, 08:13 AM
When talking about Wish, this little anecdote that our DM told us always springs to my mind.

A party faces a dragon in his lair. Great wyrm, or something like that, very powerful opponent in any case. After a few rounds a party wizard manages to pull out a Wish. He wishes for dragon to be dead.

Next thing you know you know, they were running from a dracolich :smallbiggrin:

Douglas
2007-11-03, 10:40 AM
Now if you ask god for a miracle by casting the spell miracle I expect a freakin miracle. I mean a D&D miracle, what would a god inpired miracle be in a land whare a mortal can cast meteor sworm? Really another meteor sworm?

I guess my real problem is that the spell is named miracle. Its purly semantic. It really should be called greater wish. In a world whare any cleric with enough browny points with a god can cast oh lets say resurection, miracles are meaningless.
"Another meteor swarm" is what you get when you don't want to bother your deity too much and just want something relatively minor. Even in the real world miracles don't have to be really big to be miracles. Now for the really major stuff, where your deity really has to exert some effort to help you out and you have to pay xp, how does resurrecting an entire army all at once sound? Miracle can do that if you're willing to pay the xp and your deity isn't opposed to it.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-11-03, 10:56 AM
Your talking about a miracle, freakin divine intervention. Its really cool because its really a spell that can cast any spell ever written by WOTC? Now if god intervening happens to be some thing the DM can use a spell for a quick way of helping out fine. BUT this is my problem its not just that the spell is written in a very narrow scope its the fact that if the spell MIRACLE really creats a high level spell that its really a joke. Why? Because any finger wagler or guy with prayer beeds that can actualy perform magic is a miracle worker. That statue of Marry that cried blood miracle, Jesus's resuraction miracle, Mosus parting the red sea freakin MIRACLE. Now if you ask god for a miracle by casting the spell miracle I expect a freakin miracle. I mean a D&D miracle, what would a god inpired miracle be in a land whare a mortal can cast meteor sworm? Really another meteor sworm?

I guess my real problem is that the spell is named miracle. Its purly semantic. It really should be called greater wish. In a world whare any cleric with enough browny points with a god can cast oh lets say resurection, miracles are meaningless.

What you are describing is this spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm), together with the message 'come and help us lay forth some righteous smack'. Most deities don't have the time, so they apportion 8th level spell slots instead.

Elhann
2007-11-03, 11:12 AM
When talking about Wish, this little anecdote that our DM told us always springs to my mind.

A party faces a dragon in his lair. Great wyrm, or something like that, very powerful opponent in any case. After a few rounds a party wizard manages to pull out a Wish. He wishes for dragon to be dead.

Next thing you know you know, they were running from a dracolich :smallbiggrin:
Sorry, but that smells like a jerky DM: "I wish X was dead", is really close to "I want to duplicate a Finger of Death effect". Since duplicating lower level spells is one of the listed effects of Wish, even if you have Necromancy as one of your prohibited schools, Dragon should have rolled a fortitude save, not turn into an undead abomination.
Because, if a player wants to burn 5K XPs with a heightened finger of death, he should be free to do so.

Adumbration
2007-11-03, 11:35 AM
By the way, could a cleric with Miracle spell use it to transform himself? For an example, saying "I wish I had wings" while calling upon his deity or something like that. What about changing race with it? I could imagine a nice roleplay with a cleric who Miracles himself into an angel or some other celestial creature.

Mordokai
2007-11-03, 11:37 AM
Hey, I never said it was fair on DM's part, but I find it funny :smallsmile: And it's always that, DM's word is law. If he finds it cheap to kill a beast as mighty as great wyrm with a spell(albeit a ninth level one) it is in his right to prevent that.

Arbitrarity
2007-11-03, 11:58 AM
Hey, I never said it was fair on DM's part, but I find it funny :smallsmile: And it's always that, DM's word is law. If he finds it cheap to kill a beast as mighty as great wyrm with a spell(albeit a ninth level one) it is in his right to prevent that.

So he obviously bans finger of death, wail of the banshee, disablers like feeblemind, Imprisonment, Temporal stasis, dominate monster, Irresistable Dance (extended, for great amusement!), baleful polymorph, and not mentioning non-core things.

Mordokai
2007-11-03, 12:02 PM
For clarification, that wasn't my DM doing that prank. He just told me that. But yes, obviously you're right. It is well in his power. I don't condone actions as that, but he can do it if he so wishes.

mostlyharmful
2007-11-03, 01:42 PM
By the way, could a cleric with Miracle spell use it to transform himself? For an example, saying "I wish I had wings" while calling upon his deity or something like that. What about changing race with it? I could imagine a nice roleplay with a cleric who Miracles himself into an angel or some other celestial creature.

There's a 7th level spell in Anciant empires of Faerun, Findbond i think, that turns the subject into a half-fiend, you can't cast it on yourself and it burns xp and gp. So I wouldn't think wanting to use a 9th level spell with a far bigger xp cost to get the half-celestial template is particularly out of line, particularly since you now have a full caster with a LA +4. But some might object to you suddenly going up four levels.

Rockphed
2007-11-04, 12:38 AM
By the way, could a cleric with Miracle spell use it to transform himself? For an example, saying "I wish I had wings" while calling upon his deity or something like that. What about changing race with it? I could imagine a nice roleplay with a cleric who Miracles himself into an angel or some other celestial creature.

The Spell Reincarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm) specifically states that a wish or miracle can restore a reincarnated creature to its original form, though that might require the 5K xp on the clerics part. So you could probably get wings, though the rest of being an angel might take a tad more. Then again, turning into an angel is probably less powerful than resurrecting an entire army, so you could burn the 5K xp to become an angel.

Aquillion
2007-11-04, 10:30 PM
The Spell Reincarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm) specifically states that a wish or miracle can restore a reincarnated creature to its original form, though that might require the 5K xp on the clerics part. So you could probably get wings, though the rest of being an angel might take a tad more. Then again, turning into an angel is probably less powerful than resurrecting an entire army, so you could burn the 5K xp to become an angel.Reversing Reincarnate is a special case set aside in that spell. I would be very, very careful about allowing people to use Wish to change race... Remember, Wish has specific rules for how you can use it to increase stats. Changing race freely lets players get around that, effectively exceeding the proscribed limits of Wish.

Yes, Polymorph Any Object already breaks that, but PAO is so broken it isn't even worth talking about.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-11-05, 01:49 AM
Wishes rarely come up in my games, but if they do, here's the three step policy.

1. Is the person granting the wish benevolent? If they are (Such as a good god) or are neutral, then proceed to step 2. If they are not (Such as an evil god or Efreeti) then players roll opposed intelligence checks. If a failure, wish is twisted into a negative.

2. Wish finds the path of least resistance. First, it will try to replicate 8th or lower spells. If a player wishes to kill something, Wish will replicate Finger of Death. If the player asks for a boat, Major Creation. This costs no xp, as per the spell. Then, it will try to use a function listed in the spell description.

3. If this still fails, adjudicate the wish. I don't try to be clever and screw my players...if someone pays 5k Xp to wish to be able to fly, I don't rocket him into the stratosphere just to be mean. (Of course, if they ask to be immortal, invulnerable, and the most powerful being in the universe; then I might consider turning him into an ancient old one and throwing him into an eternal slumber in the astral plane.)

Khanderas
2007-11-05, 07:32 AM
... A cleric can duplicate that with Miracle without giving up any of his usual fighting prowess and, unlike for Wish, he does not have to pay XP to do so.
But Miracle is basically calling in a favor from your god. Do that too much or needlessly it would be denied. Nobody likes that kid that keeps tattling :smalltongue:
Wish, costs XP yes, but you only need that, no extraplanar god is telling you enough is enough, unless you wish for some real crazy stuff.

Starbuck_II
2007-11-05, 08:28 AM
But Miracle is basically calling in a favor from your god. Do that too much or needlessly it would be denied. Nobody likes that kid that keeps tattling :smalltongue:
Wish, costs XP yes, but you only need that, no extraplanar god is telling you enough is enough, unless you wish for some real crazy stuff.

Squeaky Wheel gets the Oil: eventually, he will not deny you.

The_Werebear
2007-11-05, 11:19 AM
Squeaky Wheel gets the Oil: eventually, he will not deny you.

Consider- Is it easier to grant the spell or to simply not let you draw the spell to prepare. Remember, cleric spells are Granted. Just like Pelor won't grant Animate Dead (Though he could), a deity constantly being begged to will start cutting off ways to contact him until you shut up. That, and an evil deity might decided it would be more fun and leave a better lesson to simply smite you.

cody.burton
2007-11-05, 05:37 PM
Consider- Is it easier to grant the spell or to simply not let you draw the spell to prepare. Remember, cleric spells are Granted. Just like Pelor won't grant Animate Dead (Though he could), a deity constantly being begged to will start cutting off ways to contact him until you shut up. That, and an evil deity might decided it would be more fun and leave a better lesson to simply smite you.

Except that you're not just some random mortal. You're a high level cleric, in high standing with your god, and doing your god's work in the world.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-11-05, 05:47 PM
Except that you're not just some random mortal. You're a high level cleric, in high standing with your god, and doing your god's work in the world.

The only real standard I'd use is whether or not your actions are in line with the god's aims. Pelor gladly grants Miracles to high level clerics healing deadly plagues, not so much just to slay some random dragon.

The_Werebear
2007-11-05, 05:52 PM
Except that you're not just some random mortal. You're a high level cleric, in high standing with your god, and doing your god's work in the world.

But you aren't the only high level servant. And you are still only a mortal. And you are getting bloody annoying. Therefore, I quit responding to miracles for things that aren't too important or are only loosely in line with the deities goals.


The only real standard I'd use is whether or not your actions are in line with the god's aims. Pelor gladly grants Miracles to high level clerics healing deadly plagues, not so much just to slay some random dragon.

Exactly.

cody.burton
2007-11-05, 06:11 PM
The only real standard I'd use is whether or not your actions are in line with the god's aims. Pelor gladly grants Miracles to high level clerics healing deadly plagues, not so much just to slay some random dragon.

Maybe I'm stricter than usual, but I follow those rules for all cleric spells. You'd better be able to justify what you're doing to you god, or he's not powering your spells.

So if you're using the miracles to further your god's agenda, you can have all you want. If you're just munchkining, have fun without your spells.

Chronos
2007-11-05, 07:30 PM
In a homebrew system I'm designing, Miracle is a first-level spell. But all it actually does is draws your deities attention to your current greatest need. If the deity decides to help (which depends on a number of factors including how devout you are, whether you've ever asked for a Miracle before, and what the DM's mood is), he or she addresses that need, in a manner of the deity's choosing. The caster may not even know what es greatest need was, or whether the spell was successful, and meanwhile, the caster spends so much power on casting the spell that e's likely to be comatose for the next week (so it's not to be used lightly). And no matter whether the need is adressed or not, the spell always gets the deity's attention, which may have other consequences.

As examples of possible successful Miracles, suppose that a priest has just fallen off of a high cliff, which would certainly be deadly. Depending on the whim of the deity, any of the following might happen:
The priest is rendered temporarily invulnerable for the next round
The priest is rendered temporarily ethereal, and falls right through the ground harmlessly
The priest is temporarily granted the power of flight
The priest is teleported harmlessly to the top of the cliff
The priest is teleported harmlessly to the bottom of the cliff
Time is rewound to just before the priest fell off the cliff
A lake appears at the bottom of the cliff, to cushion the priest's fall
A giant pillow appears at the bottom of the cliff, to cushion the priest's fall
A manure pile appears at the bottom of the cliff, to cushion the priest's fall
The priest goes splat and dies, and meanwhile the evil necromancer the party was going to go challenge dies of a heart attack

Swordguy
2007-11-05, 07:50 PM
Here's the trick with wishes and other reality-revising effects of equal potency. Your first wish is ALWAYS:

"I wish for my next 'X' (where X=number of remaining wishes after this one) to be fulfilled as befitting the spirit and intent of the wish rather than the letter or literal value of the phrasing."

You only wish for this to effect the next X wishes because infinite effects (invulnerability, immortality, etc) tend to be the ones that get re-interpreted the most horribly. In most cases, you're giving up one wish to have the next few granted as you want them. Since most of the time wishes in games seem to come from limited-use sources (wishes, efreeti, etc) because of the prohibitive xp cost, you're generally giving up one-half to one-third of your total wishing power to gain a measure of certainty for the rest of your wishes. That's a big enough penalty that you're generally assured to have the rest of your wishes granted how you want them (assuming you don't try to go for infinite-value effects, as previously defined).

Other than this tidbit, I'm right in line with Chronos's view of how wishes work.