Gandalf Vs. Belgarath

[stolenchariot]

Discuss. Personally I must take the side of Belgarath in this scenario.

[Winterwind]

Wow. That's a tough one. I'm really curious which way the debate will go.

As for myself, I think I would say: Going by the powers they display in their respective books, the win clearly goes to Belgarath. Going by what one might assume Gandalf could be able to do if he was not holding back becomes very much more subjective, but Gandalf is stated as the most dangerous being in Middle Earth aside from Sauron himself, and he is a Maiar. Now, I think Belgarath might fare not even all that poorly against that, but ultimately, he would fall.

[A Rainy Knight]

I would probably say Belgarath, although I haven't read enough of the Lord of the Rings books to really know Gandalf. Given that Belgarath can pretty much go with his imagination using the Will and the Word (except for unmaking, ressurecting, and extremely large amounts of power), his versatility is an advantage.

[Kaelaroth]

Belgarath.

Admittedly Gandalf is semi-divine, is a relatively good staff-wielder, has a host of magic animals, and can produce a variety of supernatural effects.

But Belgarath can do nearly anything he wants: He has demonstarted by able to shape-shift, read minds, fly, teleport, move objects with his mind, create fire and ice, brew illness, repair wounds, tinker with the weather...... and all that jazz. He is unstoppable.




Provided he isn't utterly sozzled during the fight.

[Nerd-o-rama]

It's like Necron vs. Zerg from a few weeks ago. They're the same thing.

More seriously, Belgarath takes the win for what he actually does. If we start speculating on Gandalf's capabilities, and consider that he simply had far, far more restraints in-book than Belgarath did, it becomes indeterminate.

Gandalf wins in a swordfight, though.

[Kaelaroth]

It's like Necron vs. Zerg from a few weeks ago. They're the same thing.

More seriously, Belgarath takes the win for what he actually does. If we start speculating on Gandalf's capabilities, and consider that he simply had far, far more restraints in-book than Belgarath did, it becomes indeterminate.

Gandalf wins in a swordfight, though.

Not necessarily. In some Eddings B is rather sharp with a stick.


What if we add a supporting character in to help them? Would that even it out?

[Logos7]

Angle of god versus disciple of god,

angle of god wins, Gandolf for this one. Sure to describe the details would verge on fanboish speculation, but i definittely think gandolf got this one.

Besides anyone knows Wizard>Sorcerer

:)

[Behold_the_Void]

Whenever Gandalf comes up in discussion with a Tolkien fanatic, I tend to hear endless dissertations on how hax he is, just restrained.

So if you go by what Gandalf does in the book vs. what Belgarath does, Belgarath for sure. If you go by how hax he apparently is, then Gandalf.

I like that word. Hax. Hax hax hax.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Angle of God? Would that be the Divine Right Angle? I kid. Anyway, Gandalf's a Druid, if anything. Which still beats a sorcerer.

Kael: that makes it an entirely different question. Which supporting character do we give them, first of all. I mean, Garion in full regalia pretty much wrecks anything in Middle-Earth short of a Valar, and even they've got cause to worry.

Now, Belgarath and Polgara vs. Gandalf and pre-Face Heel Turn Saruman would be interesting. It'd end the same way, but it'd be interesting to watch.

[Rare Pink Leech]

In my mind, there are three ways to approach this question:

1) Who would win based on what they did in the books? Belgarath, without question.

2) Who would win based on what they are apparently capable of? Probably Gandalf, although that's a muddy question.

And now for the option which isn't me restating what others have said:

3) Who would I, Rare Pink Leech, like to win? Gandalf all the way, because I hate Eddings and everything that he writes with the fiery passion of a thousand Balrogs.

[Rogue 7]

By your same question, Leech-boy, Belgarath by a long shot. Dude's actually got a sense of humor, coupled with a kick-ass storytelling ability and a supreme "do-not-care" attitude makes him SO much more fun to hang around with. Gandalf's just a pissy wizard concerned with the destruction of the world and nothing else.

Other than that, I concur on what's been said above.

[Winterwind]

Okay, since I have given the same answers for Rare Pink Leech's approach 1 and 2 already, all that remains for me to do is to answer 3...

Gandalf. I like the Belgariad, but it is merely fun. The Lord of the Rings, on the other hand, is epic and venerable, and such is Gandalf.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Gandalf. I like the Belgariad, but it is merely fun. The Lord of the Rings, on the other hand, is epic and venerable, and such is Gandalf.

If it's epic and venerable why do the Lord of the Rings books leave a taste not unlike bile in my mouth just by looking at them?

[PhoeKun]

If it's epic and venerable why do the Lord of the Rings books leave a taste not unlike bile in my mouth just by looking at them?

Because Tolkien reads like a cross between the ancient Epics and a history textbook, and if that dry-ish style of writing doesn't interest you, you're apt to hate it?

[Winterwind]

If it's epic and venerable why do the Lord of the Rings books leave a taste not unlike bile in my mouth just by looking at them?I don't know. I read them something around 15 times, I think, so obviously, I think they are rather... no, awesome is not strong enough a word. Magnificent? Point of view changing?

Anyway, different taste, different expectations, or not giving the book enough of a chance for some reason, I would presume.

[Rare Pink Leech]

If it's epic and venerable why do the Lord of the Rings books leave a taste not unlike bile in my mouth just by looking at them?

Funny, cause that's the exact same reaction I get when I see the Belgariad books :smallwink:

Now I wonder if it's too late to avoid having this thread turn into LOTR/Belgariad sucks/is the greatest thing ever thread.

[Winterwind]

Now I wonder if it's too late to avoid having this thread turn into LOTR/Belgariad sucks/is the greatest thing ever thread.That wouldn't make much sense, I believe, since we'd end up arguing about taste and preferences ultimately. And that's an argument where everyone just loses.

'Sides, we know which one is superior anyway, right? :smallwink:

[MandibleBones]

Belgarath, by virtue of what he's allowed to do. If Belgarath wants to blow the top off a mountain, he can bloody well do it. If Gandalf wants to blow the top off a mountain... is he allowed to?

In any event, though, they are otherwise at similar power levels. Disciple of a God vs. Angel of a God doesn't apply, since Maiar power comes directly from the Valar anyway (right? I could be wrong), and all of Belgarath's power comes dirctly from Aldur anyway, right?

Meh.

But Belgarath is more fun.

[factotum]

Well, as far as power is concerned, we know Gandalf fought a Balrog to destruction. OK, that all happened "off camera", but nonetheless, it's one of the few instances he gets to really let loose in the books. Also, Belgarath *does* have limits on what he can do...there's a scene early in the Malloreon where Belgarion does what he thinks is a fairly minor change to the weather to stop a fight, only for Belgarath to arrive a few weeks later and shout at him because he almost caused a new Ice Age.

As for who wins in this matchup, well, first of all we have to ask why on earth these two would be fighting anyway, but let's assume there's some logical reason for it. So, we have an angelic being versus someone who, despite the power he has exhibited on many occasions, is just a human. I'm inclined to go for Gandalf in this one.

[Ossian]

What shocked me of the fight with the Balrog was a thing that Gandalf said when telling the tale of that battle. After falling down into the dephts of Moria, the Balrog 's fire was extinghushed, although temporarily. Yet it was still a bastard of a Morgoth's Demon. The Balrog ran away from Gandalf! Instead of just killing him where he was, he flew away, and Gandalf just tryied not to lose the Balrog for fear of getting lost inside moria (as he knew that the demon knew a way out). He literally grappled the fleeing balrog by the ankles. Gandalf's 20th level wiz/20th level scary (PrCl)!

OTOH I haven't read any of Edding's (books that go "the 56th book of 77logy of the [insert fancy name] cycle tend to scare me a bit, perhaps it's all Weis and Hickman's fault :smallwink: ). Judging from the above topics the B. guy looks like a jedi crossed over with and X man and Son-Goku.

O.

[Malik]

While i enjoy both sets of books, i would have to say Belgarath.

[dehro]

Not necessarily. In some Eddings B is rather sharp with a stick.
well...yeah..but...you see... a sword is somewhat sharper than a stick, per se..


anyway If Gandalf could use his full powers and not be limited to the frialty of the human form he has acquired in the 3rd era, then Belgarath would have a very hard match ahead of him, he would brobably fall.
with all the limitations to Gandalf applying, I think the match would be more even...I'd still say gandalf, but only because...well, first love..a.s.o.
they're probably quite evenly matched and the outcome would be speculation in any case.
(now, if it was a drinking contest...)

I'd rather avoid henchmen and allies in the topic, or we are going to land in LOTR Vs Belgariad... and well... one such topics is enough for me (I'm thinking of voldy vs Sauron here)

[Nerd-o-rama]

OTOH I haven't read any of Edding's (books that go "the 56th book of 77logy of the [insert fancy name] cycle tend to scare me a bit, perhaps it's all Weis and Hickman's fault :smallwink: ). Judging from the above topics the B. guy looks like a jedi crossed over with and X man and Son-Goku.
Longest series, the one Belgarath's in, lasts twelve books (two five-book subseries and two standalone prequels). It's not that big an investment, especially as they're almost guaranteed not to be continued on at this point.

Anywho, Belgarath has his limits, he just gets to do flashier stuff than Gandalf. No need to throw about insulting comparisons to animé. Actually, since he is one dramatic death scene away from being The Obi Wan (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.TheObiWan), we might as well compare him to a powerful Jedi.

[Winterwind]

OTOH I haven't read any of Edding's (books that go "the 56th book of 77logy of the [insert fancy name] cycle tend to scare me a bit, perhaps it's all Weis and Hickman's fault :smallwink: ). Judging from the above topics the B. guy looks like a jedi crossed over with and X man and Son-Goku. Actually, he's more like a mixture of Granny Weatherwax and Merlin.

Yes, he's pretty awesome, alright. Say what you will about Edding (and I'm the first to admit that he's hardly a great poet, like Tolkien), but he can create very memorable characters :smallbiggrin:


I'd rather avoid henchmen and allies in the topic, or we are going to land in LOTR Vs Belgariad... and well... one such topics is enough for me (I'm thinking of voldy vs Sauron here)This would be a much fairer fight, though, since I wouldn't hesitate to state that Belgarath would kick Voldy's behind around in just about two hundred different ways. :smallbiggrin:

[dehro]

Actually, he's more like a mixture of Granny Weatherwax and Merlin.

This would be a much fairer fight, though, since I wouldn't hesitate to state that Belgarath would kick Voldy's behind around in just about two hundred different ways. :smallbiggrin:

good point...

and calling him voldy does take so much wind out of his sails, doesn't it?:smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

[Malik]

)!

OTOH I haven't read any of Edding's (books that go "the 56th book of 77logy of the [insert fancy name] cycle tend to scare me a bit, perhaps it's all Weis and Hickman's fault :smallwink: ). Judging from the above topics the B. guy looks like a jedi crossed over with and X man and Son-Goku.

O.

You do realise that the Lord of the Rings is 6 books not including the appendices whic go along with it to make it 7 books.

[Fay Graydon]

Belgarath has been alive for Aldur knows how long, much longer than Gandalf, that coupled with his tendency to break or bend rules, i think Belgarath would win.
...
...
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that and David and Leigh Eddings write better books than Tolkin.

[DeathQuaker]

In a battle of magic: Belgarath
In a battle of swords: Gandalf
In a battle of drinking: Belgarath
In a battle of logic: Polgara beats them both senseless and forces them to drink foul-tasting tea.

[Winterwind]

Belgarath has been alive for Aldur knows how long, much longer than GandalfConsidering Gandalf is one of the beings who created the world itself, I find this very doubtful. :smallwink:


that and David and Leigh Eddings write better books than Tolkin.Subjective. Personally, I find Tolkien is art, whereas Eddings is fast-food. Albeit good one.

[Rogue 7]

In a battle of magic: Belgarath
In a battle of swords: Gandalf
In a battle of drinking: Belgarath
In a battle of logic: Polgara beats them both senseless and forces them to drink foul-tasting tea.

Don't dis Belgarath on logic- he's at least as smart as Pol is, he just has a few more vices.

[dehro]

Belgarath has been alive for Aldur knows how long, much longer than Gandalf, that coupled with his tendency to break or bend rules, i think Belgarath would win.
...
...
...
that and David and Leigh Eddings write better books than Tolkin.

must. not. reply.
must. not. swear.
Must. respect. opinions.

Gandalf was alive far before earth came into being..far before the sun and moon where created to mesure time by.

and eddings does. not. write. better. books. than. tolkien!!!!!!

my opinion of course..it's all a matter of taste..but I really do not put them on the same shelf..although I'm an avid reader of both..it's a bit like comparing Citizen Kane to Bridget Jones, really...(my opinion again, of course)

[DeathQuaker]

Don't dis Belgarath on logic- he's at least as smart as Pol is, he just has a few more vices.

A battle of logic isn't about being smart. It's about being able to argue convincingly.

Name one argument Belgarath won with Pol. One. (I accept I may need to stand aside if you can.)

[ZeroNumerous]

It's like Necron vs. Zerg from a few weeks ago. They're the same thing.

I assume you mean Tyranids? Either way you're wrong, I'm just wondering if you meant Tyranids or not.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Yes, I meant Tyranids.

[factotum]

Gandalf was alive far before earth came into being..far before the sun and moon where created to mesure time by.


We also know precisely how old Belgarath is--seven thousand years; it's alluded to often enough in the books!

[EvilElitest]

Belgarath.

Admittedly Gandalf is semi-divine, is a relatively good staff-wielder, has a host of magic animals, and can produce a variety of supernatural effects.

But Belgarath can do nearly anything he wants: He has demonstarted by able to shape-shift, read minds, fly, teleport, move objects with his mind, create fire and ice, brew illness, repair wounds, tinker with the weather...... and all that jazz. He is unstoppable.




Provided he isn't utterly sozzled during the fight.

Isn't Belgarath limited by the laws of nature though, i mean he can't make storms in places were their are none
from,
EE

[EvilElitest]

If it's epic and venerable why do the Lord of the Rings books leave a taste not unlike bile in my mouth just by looking at them?

poor reading tastes?
from,
EE

[Rogue 7]

A battle of logic isn't about being smart. It's about being able to argue convincingly.

Name one argument Belgarath won with Pol. One. (I accept I may need to stand aside if you can.)
Well, for starters, there's the time in Pawn of Prophecy where Belgarath tells Pol that he'll handle Garion after he rode the Cherek Bore, and more relevantly, there's the time when he schooled her in dealing with absolutes and reading in "Belgarath the Sorceror". Admittedly, she was 20-something and illiterate, but like you said, it's not about being smart.:smallwink:
Belgarath wins plenty of times in debates with Pol when the debates aren't about Belgarath's habits.

[Halna LeGavilk]

.....

Um, who's Belgarath?
...
...
...
...
...

Gandalf wins.

[Winterwind]

Um, who's Belgarath?First wizard ever in his world, disciple and pupil of a God (of magic, kind of), seven thousand years old immortal, from the Belgariad series by David Eddings. Which is a pretty good story with rather memorable characters.


Gandalf wins.And you arrive at this conclusion... how? :smalltongue:

[Halna LeGavilk]

First wizard ever in his world, disciple and pupil of a God (of magic, kind of), seven thousand years old immortal, from the Belgariad series by David Eddings. Which is a pretty good story with rather memorable characters.
Thanks.

And you arrive at this conclusion... how? :smalltongue:
Because I am awesome. :smallbiggrin: And you would be wise to learn that.

[Winterwind]

Because I am awesome.Well, I basically prefer Gandalf to win, too (even though Belgarath is awesome as well, my favourite character from the series), even though I am not certain whether he would actually prevail, so I concur that your opinion on the matter, at the very least, is awesome indeed. :smallbiggrin:


:smallbiggrin: And you would be wise to learn that.Noted.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Isn't Belgarath limited by the laws of nature though, i mean he can't make storms in places were their are none
from,
EE

Not entirely. He can't make a storm...he'll take one from somewhere else. Which apparently isn't a good idea since it causes Ice Ages.

In the end I think their on more equal footing then people believe. In their respective universes (Which aren't exactly horribly off balance with each other) Gandalf and Belgarath both represent the 'third tier' of power. You got the super being (Don't know the name of the Tolkein one and Ulgo), you got the mega beings (That Valar (Or however you spell it) and the Gods and Children of Prophecy), then you got the people that you really don't want to mess with because their not fair off from the mega beings (The Maiar and Disicples of Aldur)

Gandalf is apparently restricted by a bunch of rules and Belgarath won't do something he knows will have horrible side effects (Which is why he spends a lot of his time studying so he'll KNOW the side effects of what he's doing). As stated elsewhere though LoTR magic is more subtle then most other places and The Will isn't quite as restricted in that regard nor does it take as much time.

To put it as David Eddings did when describing what the Head Grolim in the Belgariad could do 'He may not try to un-make an opponent, but theres nothing to stop him from say...materilizing a spear through his chest'. Note, this isn't a guy as powerful as Belgarath either, just a more amoral one. Belgarath is more limited by his own morals then a divine set of rules and that might work against him.

That said I'd still want to be there if the two of them were totally inhibited by morals, divine rules, or the consequences of their fight. Some seriously bad ass crap would happen...I'd still throw it to Belgarath though, mostly because I'm more familiar with what he can do.

EDIT: Yes, I am told I have an odd reading taste, don't mean it's bad though. I just think Tolkein is a long-winded guy with way too much time on his hands designing all of this.

[Jayabalard]

Belgarath's has no constraints on what he is allowed to do, except for his own conscious; there are a couple of limitations of power on him, but how those match up to Gandalf's theoretical power is nothing but speculation.

Gandalf has outside constraints on what he is allowed to do; certainly, he theoretically has awsome amounts of power, but he can't, in practice, use it. Specifically, I can't see any way that Gandalf would be allowed to use the power that he would need to defeat Belgarath in a battle of magic.

The winner: Belgarath


Name one argument Belgarath won with Pol. One. (I accept I may need to stand aside if you can.)You missed one of the points in those books: the trick to dealing with a woman like Pol is that you have to lose arguments and only worry about winning the ones that are really important.

They argue about his habits but that doesn't make him change anything.

Belgarath only puts his foot down when it's something that he considers pretty important.

[rankrath]

ok, I've read both series, tho its been a couple of years. From what I remember, the only spell gandalf casts are hold portal and summon nature ally, and it takes him a while to cast both of those. Belgarath, as metioned, casts stuff like polymorph, fireball, counterspell, the list goes on. Now, based off what's in the books, I'd have to say that the duel would go like this;

Gandalf: begins to cast spell
Belgarath: burn
Gandalf: :smalleek:

[Aquillion]

Gandalf: begins to cast spell
Belgarath: burn
Gandalf: :smalleek:And then like this:
Belgarath: *pokes through ashes* Wow, he sure went down fast...
Gandalf the White: Hey.
Belgarath: Burn!
Gandalf the White: :smalleek: :smalleek:
Belgarath: *looks around nervously as Gandalf is reduced to ashes again, then finally settles down and starts to rest*
Gandalf the Whiter: That hurts, you know.
Belgarath: #$@#% burn burn burn!
Gandalf the Whiter: :smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek:
Belgarath: *pant, wheeze*
Gandalf #4: Actually, you...
Belgarath: BE NOT! ...um, that is... oh, boop. :smallannoyed: *pops out of existance*
Gandalf #4: *pokes through the remains of Belgarath's clothes to loot them before throwing out Belgarath's alcohol and smokes, since Gandalf has better taste in both*

...it is funny how the one thing Belgarath could theoretically do to eliminate Gandalf for good is also the one and only thing he is strictly not allowed to do.

[Nerd-o-rama]

He could stick him in a tiny little underground crevice, alive, for all eternity. That would keep Gandalf busy for at least a few centuries trying to get out, I should think. Killing someone isn't the only way to get rid of them.

[Rogue 7]

Too bad he never thought...Oh wait:smalltongue:

[xanaphia]

Put it this way.

Balrog vs Belgarath.

Gandalf had won vs Balrog.

[ZeroNumerous]

He could stick him in a tiny little underground crevice, alive, for all eternity. That would keep Gandalf busy for at least a few centuries trying to get out, I should think. Killing someone isn't the only way to get rid of them.

He could. But Gandalf could just kill himself and show up elsewhere. It doesn't make any sense, but it happened in LoTR. :smallconfused:

[Nerd-o-rama]

How's he going to kill himself encased in solid rock? That fate was meant as a nigh-unending torture for Zedar. Of course, really he could just bite his tongue and drown...

I'm also not totally sure Gandalf's resurrection/ascension thing would work more than once. But then again, no one really knows what all Gandalf is capable of anyway, given the number of plot-restrictions he had.

xanaphia: Belgarath has experience as a diabolist...he can contain something like a Balrog, temporarily, and banish it assuming it's under the control of another mortal. If it's running wild, though, he needs divine intervention and/or the McGuffin of Aldur's help. Which is perhaps comparable to Gandalf's Ring of Fire, which is implied to have at least helped against the Balrog.

[factotum]

The thing is, Gandalf is an angelic spirit who has taken on a human form (well, mostly human--at the time of the War of the Ring his "human" form is around 1600 years old!). You could trap his body underground, but there's no guarantee that would trap Gandalf...

[Aspie]

With all restrictions, my opinion is Gandalf.
Belgarath would toast Gandalf the first time, but since Gandalf cannot really die, I think, then he would come back so many times that eventually he would take down Belgarath. Would take a hell lot of time though.
Without all restrictions, my opinion is Belgarath.
Without all restrictions Gandalf might be as powerfull he can like, but Belgarath can just say "Be not" and Gandalf would be removed from existance. It would boil down to who got the first blow, but which is most likely to use underhanded tactics? Belgarath.

[factotum]

Without all restrictions Gandalf might be as powerfull he can like, but Belgarath can just say "Be not" and Gandalf would be removed from existance. It would boil down to who got the first blow, but which is most likely to use underhanded tactics? Belgarath.

WRONG. As soon as Belgarath tries to unmake ANYTHING he will be destroyed himself--I'm amazed you would forget that considering it was a pretty darned major plot point in the Belgariad!

[Winterwind]

WRONG. As soon as Belgarath tries to unmake ANYTHING he will be destroyed himself--I'm amazed you would forget that considering it was a pretty darned major plot point in the Belgariad!I suspect that's what he meant by removing the restrictions.

[Alex Kidd]

Yeah but it's not a restriction in the "my god or morals won't let me do this" way it's in the "I can't or I explode cause my magic can't do that". You may as well say that Gandalf can remove his restriction on being invincible to everything ever. It's not an optional restriction, removing it makes the contest meaningless as it means Belgarath isn't using his magic anymore, he's using some other type of magic.

And with that said, Belgarath wins, assuming Gandalf just gets his human form and can't just come back with a new one. If he is going with full Maiar power, then Gandalf all the way.

[Winterwind]

Yeah but it's not a restriction in the "my god or morals won't let me do this" way it's in the "I can't or I explode cause my magic can't do that". You may as well say that Gandalf can remove his restriction on being invincible to everything ever. It's not an optional restriction, removing it makes the contest meaningless as it means Belgarath isn't using his magic anymore, he's using some other type of magic.

And with that said, Belgarath wins, assuming Gandalf just gets his human form and can't just come back with a new one. If he is going with full Maiar power, then Gandalf all the way.That's more or less what I think as well.

The only thing that makes me hesitate is Gandalf's statement that he is the second most powerful being on Middle-Earth (the most powerful one being Sauron).

This seems to imply to me that he must be quite a bit more powerful than what we get to see in the books.

Still, going by what we see in the books alone, Belgarath certainly wins, and anything beyond that is pure speculation.

[Logos7]

lets just repeat,

the balrog ran away from gandolf

gandolf himself has said he is the second most powerful being in the land in the time, being more powerful than the original white wizard, the elf queen chick, etc,etc. We don't need to speculate that gandolf is capable to do something if they can because Gandolf > Them, Also has the elvf forged ring of fire which of which compared to the others is no trinket.

I don't think Belgariad could take a balrog. Sure you can argue that gandolf didn't take the balrog, but it comes down to the sure, the big bad demon of fire and misery just hated gandolfs morning breath. When their's a "surposed" bunny scaring away all the wolfs, perhaps you should look twice at the "anklebiting" explanation.

besides who needs fireball when you have magical fireworks!
Gandolf Wins it with Fire.

(and Ps nothing really against belgariad I enjoy that line of books very much, but it seems to me its like trying to compare mini apples against giant oranges. it doesn't matter if they are different, one is obviously on a grander scale than the other. )

L

[Callos_DeTerran]

lets just repeat,

the balrog ran away from gandolf

gandolf himself has said he is the second most powerful being in the land in the time, being more powerful than the original white wizard, the elf queen chick, etc,etc. We don't need to speculate that gandolf is capable to do something if they can because Gandolf > Them, Also has the elvf forged ring of fire which of which compared to the others is no trinket.

I don't think Belgariad could take a balrog. Sure you can argue that gandolf didn't take the balrog, but it comes down to the sure, the big bad demon of fire and misery just hated gandolfs morning breath. When their's a "surposed" bunny scaring away all the wolfs, perhaps you should look twice at the "anklebiting" explanation.

besides who needs fireball when you have magical fireworks!
Gandolf Wins it with Fire.

(and Ps nothing really against belgariad I enjoy that line of books very much, but it seems to me its like trying to compare mini apples against giant oranges. it doesn't matter if they are different, one is obviously on a grander scale than the other. )

Maybe it was just me, but I didn't see anything particularly impressive from the Balrog aside from the whole 'big flaming demon' bit. And while it really looks cool, if thats the only thing it's doin' Belgarath can take one down easy. Granted from what little I read of LoTR before tossing it away, it apparently has magic too but I'm guessing that's not it's strong point.

Balrog<Belgariad & Mallereoan Demon Lords

Considering Belgarath can summon demons and demon lords (Not that he does it often or willingly) and he has actually faced them a couple of times, I'm pretty sure he can take the Balrog down which brings him back to the whole Gandalf fight. (Heck, if the smith turned wizard can fight one with a Ultimate Force of Good aid, then I'm pretty sure Belgarath could if he really had too)

As for the whole Elven Ring of Fire bit, that's not exactly fair in this case considering Belgariadverse only HAS two magical objects at all, and Belgarath can't use either of them because of prophecy-related reasons. You throw the Orb of Aldur or it's counterpart in with Belgarath then this becomes a much much more one sided fight.

EDIT: Oh, as for Gandalf being able to come back from the dead with the whole angel spirit type thingy, if Belgarath can banish demons (Other then ones HE has summoned, which I don't actually remember him doing. Been awhile since I read those books) what makes you think he can't just banish Belgarath's spirit?

[Aquillion]

Balrogs are fallen Maiar, so the Balrog that fled from Gandalf was at least of lesser demigod status, close in power to Gandalf himself...

And non-fallen Maiar like Gandalf are described as being able to shed their bodies, wander without them, and assume new forms as if they were changing clothes, so trapping him in stone wouldn't work.

[factotum]

The only thing that makes me hesitate is Gandalf's statement that he is the second most powerful being on Middle-Earth (the most powerful one being Sauron).


I don't recall he ever makes such a statement. He says he is the most dangerous thing that one of the Hobbits (Pippin, I think) is likely to meet unless dragged before the Dark Lord's throne. Dangerous and powerful are not necessarily equivalent.

[Winterwind]

I don't recall he ever makes such a statement. He says he is the most dangerous thing that one of the Hobbits (Pippin, I think) is likely to meet unless dragged before the Dark Lord's throne. Dangerous and powerful are not necessarily equivalent.That's the line I meant.

Dangerous seems like pretty much the same as powerful to me though, if one limits the definition of power to include only the abilities useful for combat and destruction (as opposed to purely harmless powers).

[factotum]

But he then goes on to say that pretty much everybody in the Fellowship is dangerous, including Pippin himself. He's obviously not using "dangerous" to mean "scary and powerful".

[Winterwind]

No, that's not what he says. He makes that statement when he meets Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli for the first time after his resurrection after Gimli says that Fangorn is dangerous, and points out to him that he is dangerous, even very much so, and that Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli all are dangerous beings as well. He doesn't relate this to anyone else from the Fellowship, and in the case of these three it is most definitely true.

[thorgrim29]

Well..... based on what I've seen, I'm gonna go for Belgarath.... Because the most impressing thing gandalf the grey did "on screen" was throw fireballs at a couple of worgs. But then again, Gandalf the White is more powerfull, because he does'nt need to put his powers in check to keep gandalf the black from coming into existance. So I dont know.

[Rare Pink Leech]

You know, as I've been reading this thread and thinking more about the question, I've come to the conclusion that this comparison isn't really possible. It's like how you can't convert anything of Tolkien's into D&D statistics. His system of magic is just so undefined you can't really place any specifics on it, so you can't make D&D equivalents.

Belgarath, on the other hand, is a very D&D-like caster, and I'm sure it would be fairly easy to stat him out (starting with his caster level being through the roof). It wouldn't be perfect, but it's much more doable than trying to stat out Gandalf. They're just incompatible. Much of Tolkien's magic is, for the most part, "This object is magical, therefore it is mighty and powerful", just like lots of old tales and epics.

It's kind of like saying who's better, Shakespeare or Chekov? That doesn't really work, since not only did they write in different genres (plays and sonnets vs. novels), they wrote in different languages, so for most people you'll have to read one or the other in translation, which is never as good as the original. You can compare various aspects of their writing, and you can say who you like more, but you can't say who is better. They're just too different.

P.S. Gandalf still wins, because I like him more :smalltongue:

[Winterwind]

This might be the most true statement in this thread so far, Rare Pink Leech (awesome name, by the way :smallbiggrin: ).