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Kellus
2007-11-07, 12:26 AM
Fish Weapons

Fish are a new category of weapons, in addition to simple, martial, and exotic. Fish do not have different size categories. For example, you cannot get a Diminutive-sized whale for a Diminutive-sized adventurer. In addition, fish weapons cannot be bought, mostly because they start to smell pretty quickly. For the most part, fish weapons are only used by the cetacean knight (see below).

One fish is pretty much like another, so fish weapons are grouped together for the purpose of feats such as Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization.

Fish weapons benefit as much from magic fang and other such effects as they do from magic weapon.

Table: Fish Weapons
{table=head]Weapons|Damage|Critical|Size|Range Increment|Weight|Type
Light Melee Weapons
Barracuda|1d8|x2|Small|-|60 lb|Slashing
Piranha|1d4|18-20/x3|Diminutive|-|6 lb|Piercing or Slashing
Snapper Turtle|1d6|x4|Tiny|-|40 lb|Piercing
Squid|8d1|19-20/x2|Large|-|600 lb|Slashing
One-Handed Melee Weapons
Dolphin|2d10|x2|Large|-|700 lb|Bludgeoning
Hammerhead Shark|2d8|19-20/x2|Large|-|500 lb|Bludgeoning or Slashing
Octopus|8d2|19-20/x2|Huge|-|800 lb|Slashing
Swordfish|1d10|18-20/x2|Medium|-|1400 lb|Piercing
Two-Handed Melee Weapons
Sawfish|2d12|19-20/x2|Huge|-|700 lb|Slashing|3300 lb|Slashing
Narwhal|2d10|x3|Huge|-|2000 lb|Piercing
Baleen Whale|6d10|x2|Gargantuan|-|50000 lb|Bludgeoning
Ranged Weapons
Sea Star|1d6|x2|Diminutive|40ft.|5 lb|Slashing[/table]

Narwhal: A narwhal has reach. You can strike opponents 10ft. away with it, but you canít use it against an adjacent foe.

Octopus: An octopus is treated as a melee weapon with 15ft. reach, but it doesnít allow you to threaten the area into which you can make an attack. You can make trip attempts with an octopus. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the octopus to avoid being tripped.

When using an octopus, you get a +4 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an opponent (including the roll to keep from being disarmed if the attack fails).

You may apply the Weapon Finesse feat to this weapon, even though it is not a light weapon.

Sawfish: You may apply the Weapon Finesse feat to this weapon, even though it is not a light weapon.

Snapper Turtle: Fighting with a snapper turtle grants you a +1 shield bonus to AC.

Squid: A squid is treated as a melee weapon with 10ft. reach, but it doesnít allow you to threaten the area into which you can make an attack. You can make trip attempts with a squid. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the squid to avoid being tripped.

When using a squid, you get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an opponent (including the roll to keep from being disarmed if the attack fails).

Swordfish: You may apply the Weapon Finesse feat to this weapon, even though it is not a light weapon.

The Cetacean Knight

Requirements

The cetacean knights are an order of holy warriors who are dedicated to protecting the denizens of the ocean. Fighting on behalf of those who cannot, the knights protect fish in all their efforts, and also use them to beat the heck out of anybody that disagrees with them.

To become a cetacean knight, a character must meet all of the following requirements.

Base Attack Bonus: +4
Feat: Fish Proficiency
Skills: Handle Animal 8 ranks, Swim 8 ranks
Special: The character must be inducted by the cetacean knights and swear to fight enemies of fishy-kind wherever they lurk.
Spellcasting: Must be able to cast summon monster I and summon natureís ally I.

Table: The Cetacean Knight
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+0|Fishhand, oath of fishykind, weapons of the sea (light, ranged)

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+0|Something fishy

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+1|Weapons of the sea (one-handed)

4th|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+1|Awesome blow

5th|
+5|
+4|
+4|
+1|Weapons of the sea (two-handed)

[/table]

All of the following are class features of the cetacean knight.

Fishhand (Ex): The cetacean knight is inducted into a sacred order and taught how to use the ancestral weapons of the sea. All penalties associated with using an improperly-sized fish are waived for her. In addition, she gains a situational Strength bonus equal to +10 per class level for the purposes of lifting and fighting with fish.

Oath of Fishykind (Su): A cetacean knight who willingly hurts a fish loses all supernatural class features from this prestige class, and throws up if she smells fish. She may atone for her transgression by killing a fisherman.

Weapons of the Sea (Su): The cetacean knight fights with the pure power of fish. Using magical power, she can summon fish to use in her righteous battles. As a swift action, she may summon one or two fish weapons which remain until they leave her grasp (unless itís a ranged weapon, in which case the attack is resolved first).

At first level, she may summon any light or ranged fish. At 3rd level, she may summon any one-handed fish as well. At 5th level, she may summon any two-handed fish as well.

Something Fishy (Ex): Due to her extensive training with discerning spoiled fish, the cetacean knight is excellent at uncovering the truth. Beginning at 2nd level, she receives a bonus equal to her class level on Sense Motive checks.

Awesome Blow (Ex): Beginning at 4th level, the cetacean knight discovers the true secrets of fish domination. She is treated as having the Awesome Blow monstrous feat whenever she makes an attack with a fish weapon of Large size or larger.

New Feat

Fish Proficiency [General]

You learn how to use fish to their full potential, by beating the tar out of your enemies with them.

Benefit: You make attack rolls with fish normally.
Normal: When using a weapon you are not proficient with, you take a -4 penalty.
Special: This feat may be selected as a fighter bonus feat.

Ghal Marak
2007-11-07, 12:53 AM
...wow. You have put an extensive amount of time and effort into this. Bravo. This has got to be one of the weirder things I have seen on this board. And now I can't shake the mental image of the Monty Python's Fish Slap skit. :smalltongue: Two tumbs up.

SilveryCord
2007-11-07, 01:07 AM
wait. What? This is so confusing. I think I'm going to lie down and go to sleep. And then come back later to comment.

Fish? Oh Homebrew Design (d20 and RPG), you never cease to amuse. New drunken master weapon, I guess.

Thunderbuckets
2007-11-07, 01:53 AM
Did you figure out what the strength modifier to be able to swing a Baleen Whale would be? Because even with the +50 boost, it's got to be pretty high...

Also, don't Huge weapons naturally have more than a 10ft. reach? If so, the Narwhal needs adjusting.

Finally, the CK is missing class skills. Other than all that, nice job.

Kyace
2007-11-07, 04:04 AM
Actually, assuming a naked Str of 20ish, at lvl 4 of the PrC, for the purposes of carrying fish, your Max load is 102,400 lbs, so the Baleen is a medium load. At lvl 5, your max load for fish is 409,600 lbs so the Baleen is easy to carry.

A minor nit pick about the class requirements: you are requiring a melee based PrC to know an two spells that arn't on the same spell list to enter? Is that a typo?

Arrghus
2007-11-07, 09:01 AM
A:Awesome job, though I have some more or less serious questions
B:Can you use Animal Growth on your fish weapons (it doesn't say it doesn't work on dead animals)? If so, what are the effects?
C:The squid does 8D1 damage, what does a D1 look like?
D:Did I say it's awesome? Cause it is.

dyslexicfaser
2007-11-07, 01:40 PM
I'd suggest tossing the req for summon monster, and instead give the class +1 in the divine spellcasting class you were in before: gives incentive to rangers and druids to get into the class.

Maybe you would get bonuses for wearing things like the Manta Ray Cape? Or would that send you into a fishy kind of rage?

Perhaps sea anemone caltrops? What about some kind of fish that comes pre-poisoned?

Other than that... very awesome. What would the reach be on wielding a gargantuan fish weapon? 30ft? More?

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-11-07, 05:09 PM
I suggest changing squid and octopus damage to 1d8 and 2d8 respectively. Instead of damage being represented by each individual tentacle, you can make it the representative of how many tentacles make contact. It seems strange that something like that would have a hit of all or none.

DracoDei
2007-11-07, 05:35 PM
I think it is more flavorful to have them as 8d1 and 8d2.

Yakk
2007-11-07, 05:36 PM
The Piranha has issues.

18x3 is 6 crit pips, or +30% damage. A keen or improved crit Piranha hits 12 crit pips, or +60% damage over base.

With +50 strength (!), a base strength of 30, and a +5 magic fang boost...

1d4+40 damage on average *1.6 = average of 68 damage per hit.
Offhand does 39.2 damage per hit.
Total from an attack round: 107.2 average per (main+offhand) hit.

In comparison, a -2 power attack Baleen whale does:
(33 + 35*1.5 + 5 +4)*1.1 = 103.4 average per hit.

Hmm. Ok, I was wrong: the Piranha is "balanced" against a Baleen whale. :)

... which is rather sick.

JackMage666
2007-11-07, 05:52 PM
The Piranha has issues.

18x3 is 6 crit pips, or +30% damage. A keen or improved crit Piranha hits 12 crit pips, or +60% damage over base.

With +50 strength (!), a base strength of 30, and a +5 magic fang boost...

1d4+40 damage on average *1.6 = average of 68 damage per hit.
Offhand does 39.2 damage per hit.
Total from an attack round: 107.2 average per (main+offhand) hit.

In comparison, a -2 power attack Baleen whale does:
(33 + 35*1.5 + 5 +4)*1.1 = 103.4 average per hit.

Hmm. Ok, I was wrong: the Piranha is "balanced" against a Baleen whale. :)

... which is rather sick.

See, I was reading it as that you just had the Str bonus for lifitng fish - Allowing you to life a Baleen Whale by the end, not get the bonus to attack/damage as well - If you do, the class is kinda broken.

DracoDei
2007-11-07, 05:58 PM
That was how I read it as well the first time through. Looking back now, it is a bit ambiguous...
I can't believe we are talking about game balance with something this silly... but there you go...

Kellus
2007-11-07, 07:45 PM
Hokay, thanks for the comments, everybody! :smallsmile:

The bonus to Strength is indeed only for purposes of lifting, so that the poor guy can heft a baleen whale by the end of it.

I also like the idea of 8d1 and 8d2. It's just cooler.

As for the prerequisites, a Ranger 4/Arcane anything 1 would meet them. The summoning is really just to provide a reason they can conjure up fish to beat people up with. It's a melee class through and through.

I'm working on some more fish. Sea anemone caltrops are an excellent idea. Anybody else have ideas, toss 'em out!

I'll also work out the issues regarding reach and such from gigantic weapons, and update the OP. Also, good catch on the skills. I'll fix those too, and I missed hit die as well. d8, if you're curious.

Yakk
2007-11-07, 07:47 PM
Why and? Why not or? (on the summon spells)

tyckspoon
2007-11-07, 08:47 PM
Why and? Why not or? (on the summon spells)

I was wondering that too. Personally, I would make it just Summon Nature's Ally; Summon Monster gets you outsiders, and this looks like a much more natural concerned concept. Forcing a prospective Fishknight to take a level in an arcane class seems excessively punitive; that's going to be a fairly useless level for him in the long run.

Some of the fish are.. kind of bizarre. I don't think you'll find a five-pound sea star or a six-pound piranha very often in real life, if ever. A Large light weapon is also rather weird to think about.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-08, 12:24 AM
Wow...this is so amazing. Personally, I'd suggest changing the and to an or for the summon spells. Than add "+1 to existing spellcasting" to all levels except 1st. Fix that then, I must use this class against my PCs!!!

Edit: And I can see a Ranger 4/Cetacean Knight 4/Crusader 2 being broken when dual-wielding squids. Can anyone say ultimate Aura of Chaos cheese?

tyckspoon
2007-11-08, 02:18 AM
Edit: And I can see a Ranger 4/Cetacean Knight 4/Crusader 2 being broken when dual-wielding squids. Can anyone say ultimate Aura of Chaos cheese?

Why dual-wield? You'll be doing infinite damage anyway. Or not- IIRC, when BassetKing figured out that particular infinite damage trick, the consensus was a d1 is effectively fixed damage, not a roll, and doesn't trigger Aura of Chaos.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-08, 11:44 AM
Why dual-wield? You'll be doing infinite damage anyway. Or not- IIRC, when BassetKing figured out that particular infinite damage trick, the consensus was a d1 is effectively fixed damage, not a roll, and doesn't trigger Aura of Chaos.

Why dual wield? Why not? I'd agree with that consensus though I can see my players trying to use that build and argue otherwise.