What the heck is going on?

[Maratanos]

This isn't Cliffport. Magic evidence is valid in trials.

Hinjo is a paladin.


Why the heck doesn't he just cast "Detect Evil" on Kubota? It'd be enough for an investigation... Certainly enough to spread disunity among Kubota's ally nobles...

[Porthos]

This isn't Cliffport. Magic evidence is valid in trials.

Hinjo is a paladin.


Why the heck doesn't he just cast "Detect Evil" on Kubota? It'd be enough for an investigation... Certainly enough to spread disunity among Kubota's ally nobles...

Could you point to a law that says it's illegal to be Evil?

Thought so.

If Hinjo started an investigation on Kubota solely on the fact that he pings Evil, there would be blood in the streets decks within hours. Remember, this isn't some Random Joe walking down the street. This is a guy with immense power and influence. You don't start going after him unless you have a lot to back you up. At least in a Lawful society. :smallwink:

Can you imagine all of the rhetoric that Kubota could spew if he was the target of an investigation with absolutely no pretext? Especially since Kubota wants a war? Kubota would scream about conspiracies and "power mad dictators". He'd even probably throw in charges of incompetence and "shifting the blame from where it really lies - Hinjo". In other words Kubota would do every thing he could to break what's left of Azure City apart.

So, unless they can get real proof of Kubota's treachery, Hinjo is stuck in the box he is in. Contrary to what some people would have you believe, magic doesn't solve every problem. Not when you're going against someone clever, at least. :smallsmile:

[The Extinguisher]

He doesn't want to get sued.

[jmucchiello]

This is a guy with immense power and influence. You don't start going after him unless you have a lot to back you up.Question: What is the basis of that power? Land holdings? Wealth? They're on a bunch of ships at sea, what remains of his power base?

[yoshi927]

Question: What is the basis of that power? Land holdings? Wealth? They're on a bunch of ships at sea, what remains of his power base?Probably? People. He could easily whip up a mob and go after Hinjo as things stand. The situation is incredibly precarious, and all Hinjo has done is lose the battle.

[Maratanos]

Power is what you make of it.

Kubota is powerful because people do what he says, not because of gold and dirt.

[Ubiq]

Question: What is the basis of that power? Land holdings? Wealth? They're on a bunch of ships at sea, what remains of his power base?

Well, Kubota presumably still has some ninja at his disposal along with the samurai and men-at-arms that he mentioned during the strategy meeting. Plus he probably brought along as much wealth as he could pack into whatever ships he had, so he could probably bribe some of the other nobles into helping him as well.

[Porthos]

Power is what you make of it.

Kubota is powerful because people do what he says, not because of gold and dirt.

Let's put this into a (not entirely implausible) scenario...

Noble: I'm not sure if I want to back you anymore. What with Hinjo investigating you and all.
Kubota: If I am going down, you can be darn well sure I'm going to take you down with me!
Noble: Errr.
Kubota: Don't think I don't know about <INSERT TERRIBLE SECRET HERE>. Don't think I won't use it. Not for a second.
Noble 2: But Hinjo-
Kubota: Hinjo is a whining puppy who doesn't know the first thing about ruling! Look around you! We are half starving on these boats, when we should be ruling! You may not be man enough to stand with me, but I can assure you, when I prevail against that whelp, and I will, I will remember who stood with me..... And who didn't.
Noble 3: But the risk...
Kubota: Damn the risk!!! We need a strong hand if we are to ever retake our homes! And, as you all know, I have.... powerful allies. Powerful and vengeful. It would be wise not to cross them.
All Nobles: Yes, Kubota. Whatever you say, Kubota.

Remember, this is a land of intrigue. As you say, power is not just in people and in dirt, but in persuasion and raw charisma. And when you have a people that have been demoralized by a crushing loss.... Well, just look to history to see what happens to some leaders when they lose a crushing battle. :smallwink:

[Lord_Drayakir]

Also, as far as I understand, Hinjo and the Shark Paladin are the only members of the Azure Guard left, meaning that other than them, and possibly some clerics, only they can detect evil- and they can't really show it to anybody else:

Hinjo: He's evil
Commoner: Says you!

Also, Kubota might not be evil. Sure, he's manipulative, and has attempted to send assassins to kill Hinjo in the middle of combat, BUT- it could be justified as being N. As in, he's taking the opportunity, and without the PCs, Hinjo probably would've died anyway.

[GSFB]

also, there are easy ways to cover up evil. even an idiot like Belkar can think of ways. surely a rich and powerful evil person has the resources for magical obscuring, maybe even a mind blank spell.

[Tempest Fennac]

I thought that trying to kill someone so that you could take charge of a city would class as evil (unless the ruler is an evil tyrant, then it would probably class as a semi-good act if you avoided becoming a tyrant yourself).

[factotum]

Trouble is, one evil act does not make your alignment Evil. For that matter, Kubota might consider he's trying to take over the city for the good of the people--I would imagine that very few of the nastiest dictators in history would have actually said, "Yes, I'm evil" if you asked them. (They'd probably disembowel you for the impertinence, of course, but you chose to ask the question, on your head be it! :smallamused: ).

[Setra]

V can cast divination spells right?

Couldn't he cast something to help them uncover what they need to know to build a case against .. er.. I forgot his name, the donkey of a noble.

[Tempest Fennac]

Zone of Truth could be used by both Durkon and Hinjo ( http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Zone_of_Truth_%28Spell%29 ), but Kubota would probably complain about it being harrasement, and Aristocrats get good Will saves, so there's a chance that it wouldn't work. Also, I'm sorry for bringing Miko up, but she thought that she was doing the right thing when she killed Shojo (dispite the practically non-existant "evidence" that the Order was working with Xykon), and she still fell over it. Also, Ninja Assassins often went after Shojo, which suggests that Kubota (and/or other nobles) wanted to take over the city before anyone invaded it.

[Chronos]

Besides, what makes you say that Hinjo isn't investigating Kubota? It looks to me like he is, since he's looking for evidence of Kubota's involvement in the assassination plot. The problem is that Kubota's good enough at what he does that the investigation isn't going anywhere.

[Hood]

Plus, while they're on a bunch of ships at sea they're going to have trouble coming up with any new evidence.

[Kish]

Magic evidence is valid in (Azure City) trials.

How do you know that?

Even if it was under Shojo's rule, Hinjo may well want to change that, because the fact is, Cliffport is right--magical detection methods are relatively easy to fool, and shouldn't be admissable in court.

[the mysterian]

because thats too easy.

[Warlord JK]

( http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Zone_of_Truth_%28Spell%29 ), Also, I'm sorry for bringing Miko up, but she thought that she was doing the right thing when she killed Shojo (dispite the practically non-existant "evidence" that the Order was working with Xykon), and she still fell over it. .

That was becase Miko was a paladin. Killing Shojo was against here Paladin Code and here are two reasons I can think of:
1) That might have constituted as killing a person in cold blood.
2) She was killing her lord.
Kuboto on the other hand, is not a paladin and what he is doing might constitute as N or CN because it is taking advantage of an oppurtunity while only looking out for yourself.

[NikkTheTrick]

Question: What is the basis of that power? Land holdings? Wealth? They're on a bunch of ships at sea, what remains of his power base?
Compared to Hinjo's? Kubota is on more and bigger ships at sea :smallbiggrin:

Hinjo lose almost all regular army in the battle while Kubota's men are alive.

Hinjo's new troops are low quality recruits who carry losses due to "friendly fire" while standing still (#501). Hell, he'll need 5 of those per hobgoblin to match them in the open! Kubota's old troops are... well.. old troops with their levels and everything.

[Old_el_Paso]

Contrary to what some people would have you believe, magic doesn't solve every problem.

Ninjas do.

[Twisted Otaku]

This isn't Cliffport. Magic evidence is valid in trials.

Hinjo is a paladin.


Why the heck doesn't he just cast "Detect Evil" on Kubota? It'd be enough for an investigation... Certainly enough to spread disunity among Kubota's ally nobles...

Probably because of the ongoing lawsuit over Miko's misuse of the power and the abuse of the people she used it on. Hinjo would probably NOT want to find himself in a lawsuit right now, and I'm pretty sure Kubota is as shrewd as Belkar, though in a completely different, not-so-psycho way.

I know Miko is dead but those lawers probably don't : p

[Twisted Otaku]

Remember, this is a land of intrigue. As you say, power is not just in people and in dirt, but in persuasion and raw charisma.

And that fu man chu on his face SCREAMS charisma : p

[Tempest Fennac]

I know that Kuboto's not a Plaladin, but I'd still class what he was doing as evil due to how it involves hurting pople for personal gain (he can't use the "X is listed as Chaotic Evil, so there aren't any alignment issuses" arguement either because of Hinjo being a Paladin).

[Corsair]

Kubota is probably Lawful, maybe Neutral Evil.

If they still had that Chair of Truth Shojo used, they'd be golden, but Kubota would probably refuse to sit in it anyway and they couldn't really force him.

[SPoD]

Kubota evacuated all of his most powerful minions the day before the battle, as presumably did his noble allies. Hinjo lost his in the fight. Thus, if Hinjo accuses Kubota and it doesn't stick, there will be a civil war that Hinjo will likely lose. Kubota could even use the old, "He'll bring charges against you next!" line to convince nobles who are on the fence that Hinjo needs to be stopped.

Also, Kubota strikes me as wealthy enough to own a Ring of Mind Shielding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#mindShielding). It's only 8000 gp, practically a must-have for an evil manipulator living in a Good city.

[krossbow]

Personally, I'd put him as neutral. Sure, he's trying to gain control over the city, and he's devious. But he's not exactly betraying his city or consorting with evil beings to do so. The power struggles and assasination attempts are all just part of the way things are handled in the city.


He's not a good person by any means, but its possible he's neutral.

[Kish]

Personally, I'd put him as neutral. Sure, he's trying to gain control over the city, and he's devious. But he's not exactly betraying his city or consorting with evil beings to do so. The power struggles and assasination attempts are all just part of the way things are handled in the city.


He's not a good person by any means, but its possible he's neutral.
Kubota: The new Belkar.

[Iranon]

If he's Evil... SO WHAT? I assume about 20% of the general population are Evil in the average society. Nobody does anything about that, nor should they (that would be a large-scale oppression leading to a civil war... and my sympathies would rather lie with the Evil people than the thought police).

Evil != worthy of punishment/groundless investigations. Social climbers who pick their friends based on power/reputation rather than a genuine desire for companionship are exhibiting LE behaviour. Whether that's morally wrong is open to debate, but it's certainly nobody elses business.

One might argue that, in some circumstances, Evil rulers/nobles can be more effective and a blessing for their countries because they're willing to do what needs to be done.

[Kreistor]

It is possible to be evil without committing a crime. That's the point of the Lawful Evil alignment, after all.

[Elfanatic]

Ninjas do.

Oh yes. There always more ninja.

[Kish]

It is possible to be evil without committing a crime. That's the point of the Lawful Evil alignment, after all.
No, it's not. Lawful means "ordered," not "obeys the law." The Mafia would be a Lawful Evil organization, but its members certainly don't obey the law.

[Chronos]

But he's not exactly betraying his city or consorting with evil beings to do so.He did and is doing exactly that. He ordered his soldiers to abandon the city on the eve of an invasion, and the guy with the red voice he's currently working with is probably not a celestial.

On the question of Lawful Evil, not all LE characters will obey the law, but they certainly can. Laws made by mere mortals have enough loopholes and blind spots to allow for a great deal of evil.

[#Raptor]

I think at this point Hinjo has 2 options.

1.) Outlaw evil people.
I mean, basically Hinjo IS the Law.
It might even be the best if he does this in a semi-democratic way.
Let the people vote on the law. Shouldn't be much of a problem to get everbody to agree that they don't want evil people in they'r society. (Hinjo has high CHA, Elan has a even higher CHA, Durkon has high WIS, V has high INT. Should be easy to make a convincing speach with such a team of advisors.) If he'd let everyone vote on the issue, he could be sure to have the backing of the people.

Also, as far as I understand, Hinjo and the Shark Paladin are the only members of the Azure Guard left, meaning that other than them, and possibly some clerics, only they can detect evil- and they can't really show it to anybody else:

Hinjo: He's evil
Commoner: Says you!
This shouldn't be a big problem.
Stating someone is evil when he is not is a evil act. If a Paladin commits a single evil act, he falls.

So in conclusion, if Hinjo states that someone is evil, him not falling for it is proof enough that he's telling the truth.

Oh, and don't forget to outlaw any means by wich someone could hide his own alignment.


Also, Kubota might not be evil. Sure, he's manipulative, and has attempted to send assassins to kill Hinjo in the middle of combat, BUT- it could be justified as being N. As in, he's taking the opportunity, and without the PCs, Hinjo probably would've died anyway.
I agree... in this case, he'd be better off taking the secound option.

2.) Engage with extreme prejudice.
Crush Kubota before he can get anything done.
What i mean by saying this is, load his ship up with dynamite and blow him up. No opportunity to surrender, no warnings, no chance to survive.

Kill him before he can persuade the other nobles. Even if he already did persuade them, it's still not a bad move. Crush Kubota, but give the other nobles a chance to surrender and atone. Seeing what has happend to Kubota, you can be sure they'll they think long and hard about "taking revenge" or anything like that.

If he can't load the ship up with dynamite, the next best thing would be to position his ship next to Kubotas and open fire. Any survivors that abandoned ship? Kill them off.
If thats not possible because of a lack of Firepower, search for a chaotic member aboard his crew (detect chaos, cleric 1), and pay sayd chaotic person alot of money to poison Kubotas food.
If his class levels are all aristocrat, he has a low fort. save, so the chances of him not making his save are rather good. Won't work if one of his lackeys casts a detect poison on everyone of his meals before he starts eating tho.
Another option would be to simply squish him the next time he's over at Hinjo's ship.


Unfortunately he's a lawful good Paladin, and option 2 is rather chaotic, and at least some of the ways by wich he could be crushed are evil to a certain degree , so i don't think he'd even consider it. Shojo might have done it in his position, thought it would have been hard to get the Paladins to agree.
Not a problem with option 1, although he should consider scanning Kubota for evil before introducing the new Law. If in doubt (i.e. his alignment is concealed by magic), introduce the new law anyway.

[dehro]

He did and is doing exactly that. He ordered his soldiers to abandon the city on the eve of an invasion, and the guy with the red voice he's currently working with is probably not a celestial.



he could name it "saving them from a battle that was doomed in the first place"... and argue that it was for the good of both the city and his house/family/clan for whose safety he is responsible.
How is it that you assume the red voice works with/for kubota? it might well be that the red voice has interests of it's own and that destabilizing hinjo through manipulating Kubota is one of a series of schemes..that have nothing to do with kubota's plans for power.
also it might just be that the plan is to frame kubota for an attack on hinjo (after all he left the boat in time and maybe was instrumental in bringing aboard, unknowingly, the ninja chick)... and have him shoved out of the way after hinjo dies...for a third man to rise to power.
you might of course be right, but at present we know to little to be sure of anything.

anyway, having to rely on donations and loans for supplies and save harbour, having a city to recapture and having to count on all of the available manpower, Hinjo would be a -ing stupid to try and put Kubota on trial right now. by doing so he would be putting a vast part of his "possible" henchmen against one another and start a civilian war aboard his ships. He'd lose all of his assets just to put someone on trial who might even think he's doing what's best for Azure City. don't forget, it is not only Hinjo who has lost his home and wealth...the same counts for Kubota and the other lords. they share the common interest of getting back what's theirs...that's the priority here..they can always fight it out later.
Also, it is probably safe to assume that all "lords/daymios" of Azure city are evil to one degree or the other, or maybe simply manipulative and power-hungry and that Hinjo knows this. putting any of them on trial to state the obvious, might allienate him much more than only one clan.
(very much feudal japan, all this..makes me think of the book "shogun" by clavell. I feel one should consider plots within plots, and not just the obvious answers)

in fact it would not surprise me at all if the employer of ninja-chick had nothing to do with azure city at all.



2.) Engage with extreme prejudice.
Crush Kubota before he can get anything done.
What i mean by saying this is, load his ship up with dynamite and blow him up. No opportunity to surrender, no warnings, no chance to survive.


Shojo would have considered this, maybe... but I think he'd be cleverer than that... Hinjo can't..he still is a paladin..he still has to cope with the notion that now he has to rule, and that not everything is black or white..and that Shojo's actions were despicable in paladins terms, but still necessary and justified..
If he was to do such thing, he'd lose his paladin status...the order can not afford it to lose another paladin and it's ruler in one go.

[#Raptor]

anyway, having to rely on donations and loans for supplies and save harbour, having a city to recapture and having to count on all of the available manpower, Hinjo would be a -ing stupid to try and put Kubota on trial right now. by doing so he would be putting a vast part of his "possible" henchmen against one another and start a civilian war aboard his ships. He'd lose all of his assets just to put someone on trial who might even think he's doing what's best for Azure City.
I don't think it'd be a good idea to count Kubotas forces or even more so Kubota himself amongst Hinjos forces.
Also, while we can't be 100% percent sure about Kubotas motivations, withdrawing his troops was one of the things that lead to azure citys downfall. If he really thinks hes doing whats best for Azure city, he's nuts enough to consider him a serious threat regardless of his motivations.


don't forget, it is not only Hinjo who has lost his home and wealth...the same counts for Kubota and the other lords. they share the common interest of getting back what's theirs...that's the priority here..they can always fight it out later. Are you sure about this?
I think Kubota is pretty much fine. Sure, he lost his mansion or whatever he had back in azure city, but he still has his forces and most likely pretty much all of his money with him.
He doesn't really seems to care that much about his home.
After all, by now its quite likely it got burned down by hobogoblins.


Shojo would have considered this, maybe... but I think he'd be cleverer than that... Hinjo can't..he still is a paladin..he still has to cope with the notion that now he has to rule, and that not everything is black or white..and that Shojo's actions were despicable in paladins terms, but still necessary and justified..
If he was to do such thing, he'd lose his paladin status...the order can not afford it to lose another paladin and it's ruler in one go.
As mentioned in my post above, i agree about Hinjo.
But what would be the smarter plan that Shojo would pull off?
I think crushing them would be fairly good, sometimes you simply need to hit things with a Sledgehammer.
In the best case, it might intimidate the other nobles so far that they wouldn't dare to even think about betraying Hinjo anymore.
In the worst case, its the start of a bloody civil war. Still, in this case he has already decimated the most powerful one of his enemys before the war even starts.

[dehro]

I don't think it'd be a good idea to count Kubotas forces or even more so Kubota himself amongst Hinjos forces.
Also, while we can't be 100% percent sure about Kubotas motivations, withdrawing his troops was one of the things that lead to azure citys downfall. If he really thinks hes doing whats best for Azure city, he's nuts enough to consider him a serious threat regardless of his motivations.
there is only one practical reason for trying to kill hinjo..that is gaining lordship over azure city, or over all the people thereof... hardly a point waisting a ninja on, if Azure city is in the hands of the enemy...
so it must be that hinjo, right now (when the emergency that had the lords flee has passed) has the power to command the people of azure city and have his lordship indisputed.
the motivations of kubota have little relevance. what matters is that he thinks it's wort it...
evidently hinjo's position of ruler of azure city is what matters to kubota, whatever the reasons.. therefore kubota must have plans to recapture the city, or he could simply sail away and set up shop somewhere else, where he could be supreme leader from the very first day.
and I do not think he believes he can recapture it on his own.


Are you sure about this?
I think Kubota is pretty much fine. Sure, he lost his mansion or whatever he had back in azure city, but he still has his forces and most likely pretty much all of his money with him.
He doesn't really seems to care that much about his home.
After all, by now its quite likely it got burned down by hobogoblins.
...he lost much more than that. he is a Lord of one of the ruling houses of azure city...without azure city his title does not mean much except to his people... (evidently he strives for more than just control over "his" people)... and his people need to be fed. money has the tendency not to last long when you have to pay for maintenance and your sources of income (taxes, property revenues etc. etc..) are in the bony hands of a lich.
so he lost status, his incomes, his house, political leverage... yep... I don't think he's all that fine you think he is.


But what would be the smarter plan that Shojo would pull off?
I think crushing them would be fairly good, sometimes you simply need to hit things with a Sledgehammer.
In the best case, it might intimidate the other nobles so far that they wouldn't dare to even think about betraying Hinjo anymore.
In the worst case, its the start of a bloody civil war. Still, in this case he has already decimated the most powerful one of his enemys before the war even starts.
Shojo would probably have adopted a vetinari-like strategy, making himself more usefull alive than death..if you like I could come up with a plan..there are many..for instance he could put the other lords against kubota dropping the hint that kubota might want to get the upper hand if he was to die.

If I understand the "source" of the Azure City civilisation and social structure, it is very much like medieval japan. crush one daimyo and the others will turn against you out of fear that they are next... and to crush a daimyo you need troops...at the moment Hinjo has pretty little personal troops.. he can't afford any of the lords to freak out and turn on him..and pushing for an open confrontation is a sure way to do obtain just that.
it is not a case of "if I get at kubota's throath the others will side with me"...because he can trust the other lords not an inch more than he can trust kubota, (after all they abbandoned him all, not just kubota) and any of them might seize his chance in the melee.
Right now all of the lords need to get back to their personal moneypot...the coins they have on them are going to waste in non productive food and supplies..and their liege might get fed up with staying at sea and want to settle down somewhere...but might take the time to throw those responsible for turning them into refugees overboard .
so I'd say it is safe to assume that all of the lords share Hinjo's intentions to get Azure City back. and he can better play on this than reduce his grip on their frail loyalty by putting one of them under arrest or trial.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Oh yes. There always more ninja.

Especially now that Therkla has proven to be a sea troll clone with the power to split into more sea troll... clone... ninjas.

[#Raptor]

there is only one practical reason for trying to kill hinjo..that is gaining lordship over azure city, or over all the people thereof... hardly a point waisting a ninja on, if Azure city is in the hands of the enemy...
so it must be that hinjo, right now (when the emergency that had the lords flee has passed) has the power to command the people of azure city and have his lordship indisputed.
the motivations of kubota have little relevance. what matters is that he thinks it's wort it...
evidently hinjo's position of ruler of azure city is what matters to kubota, whatever the reasons.. therefore kubota must have plans to recapture the city, or he could simply sail away and set up shop somewhere else, where he could be supreme leader from the very first day.
and I do not think he believes he can recapture it on his own.

Or it's all alot simpler, and he wants to get a bigger bunch of followers before he settles down somewhere. Becoming the lord of the fugitives of azure city would be a nice way to do this. Could be the case that he's simply waiting for the right moment to assassinate Hinjo, take over the power, and settle down. This shouldn't be much of a problem with the people too, because i doubt most of them have Hinjo's dedication about this whole "Take back our homeland" issue.


...he lost much more than that. he is a Lord of one of the ruling houses of azure city...without azure city his title does not mean much except to his people... (evidently he strives for more than just control over "his" people)...
Yeah, and i believe what he strives for is mostly one thing: Inceasing his power. And now he has the opportunity to increase it, simply by killing off Hinjo.

and his people need to be fed. money has the tendency not to last long when you have to pay for maintenance and your sources of income (taxes, property revenues etc. etc..) are in the bony hands of a lich.
so he lost status, his incomes, his house, political leverage... yep... I don't think he's all that fine you think he is.
Sure, he's not as good off as he used to be. But right now, he seems to get along. He has lost some power, but he's not at risk of loosing all right now. If he'd be, he would have been settling down by now.

You sayd "they share the common interest of getting back what's theirs" - but i wounder, whats really there to get back for Kubota? Most of his stuff has likely been trashed by now, and we don't know if the hob's bothered to rebuild anything, or if they simply razed every single building and replaced them with theyr own.


Shojo would probably have adopted a vetinari-like strategy, making himself more usefull alive than death..if you like I could come up with a plan..there are many..for instance he could put the other lords against kubota dropping the hint that kubota might want to get the upper hand if he was to die.
Coming to think of it, i agree with this. It may not necessay be a better plan - because sometimes Shojos plans backfired, or where pretty close to failing. i.e. if the Oots would have killed Miko in self-defense... well, whoopsie. Or when Miko and Hinjo overheard him talking to Roy and Belkar.. we all know how that ended.
However, Shojo just doesn't seems like the "Crush them all" type - his plans always where more subtle than that. It's more something that Baron Wulfenbach from Girl Genius would do (i believe if you read GG you'll agree, and if you don't read GG, you should. :smallsmile: ).


If I understand the "source" of the Azure City civilisation and social structure, it is very much like medieval japan. crush one daimyo and the others will turn against you out of fear that they are next... and to crush a daimyo you need troops...at the moment Hinjo has pretty little personal troops.. he can't afford any of the lords to freak out and turn on him..and pushing for an open confrontation is a sure way to do obtain just that.
it is not a case of "if I get at kubota's throath the others will side with me"...because he can trust the other lords not an inch more than he can trust kubota, (after all they abbandoned him all, not just kubota) and any of them might seize his chance in the melee.
Sure, all of them abbandoned him, but from what we know Kubota was the one leading the betrayal.

All of this "if Hinjo kills Kubota, the other lords will turn on him" assumes, for one, that Azure City's civilisation works like like medieval japan's. However, if it rather works like medieval europes, chances are pretty good nothing will happen. Either way, it'd probably a good idea to explain to the other lords that Kubota was getting out of hand, so he HAD to get rid of him, but that there is no need for further bloodshed, as he doesn't blame them... yadda yadda, in short, they get off the hook. Divide Kubotas might even amongst the other lords, and they might be fine with it.


Right now all of the lords need to get back to their personal moneypot...the coins they have on them are going to waste in non productive food and supplies..and their liege might get fed up with staying at sea and want to settle down somewhere...but might take the time to throw those responsible for turning them into refugees overboard .
so I'd say it is safe to assume that all of the lords share Hinjo's intentions to get Azure City back. and he can better play on this than reduce his grip on their frail loyalty by putting one of them under arrest or trial.
Well, i don't think he'll reduce they'r loyality by putting Kubota under arrest.
Right now the have no respect for him at all, soon they'll believe they can get away with just about anything, if they don't even think so already.

[Kurald Galain]

I'm not convinced that Kubota is evil to begin with. He could be lawful neutral, for instance, and simply an arrogant bastard who wishes the best for his city and naturally assumes that he is that best.

[Dalboz of Gurth]

No, it's not. Lawful means "ordered," not "obeys the law." The Mafia would be a Lawful Evil organization, but its members certainly don't obey the law.

Lawful Evil means you obey and twist the laws to suit your evil ends.

Most Organized Crime is not Lawful evil, it is Chaotic Evil. Even Mobsters don't obey their own organization.

The part of it which Obeys the Laws to suit their evil ends is Lawful Evil.

[Coffee_Dragon]

One thing I have never seen on the internet is a debate on whether Batman is Lawful or Chaotic.

[silvadel]

Shinjo would have just made sure Kabuto didnt make it back to his ship -- and then go back to playing with his cat.

Paladins make LOUSY rulers. They can mind their own where everybody is lawful good to a fault -- but when dealing with others the complete inability to make even minor concessions and/or lies of convenience will always get them into trouble.

[Kish]

Lawful Evil means you obey and twist the laws to suit your evil ends.
No, it really doesn't. The Player's Handbook makes it quite clear, even though the name "Lawful" is poorly chosen (it really should be "Ordered").

[Dalboz of Gurth]

No, it really doesn't. The Player's Handbook makes it quite clear, even though the name "Lawful" is poorly chosen (it really should be "Ordered").

Only if they changed the definition in 3.0

[sihnfahl]

I'm not convinced that Kubota is evil to begin with. He could be lawful neutral, for instance, and simply an arrogant bastard who wishes the best for his city and naturally assumes that he is that best.
Right, because neutral people have no problem with the idea of murdering the new lawful ruler of a country during a time of war (when people rely heavily on that ruler) in order to create a power vacuum they can fill.

[David Argall]

All of this "if Hinjo kills Kubota, the other lords will turn on him" assumes, for one, that Azure City's civilisation works like like medieval japan's. However, if it rather works like medieval europes, chances are pretty good nothing will happen.
It's a matter of style more than system here. Kill Kubota one way and you get a massive revolt. Kill him just a little different and everybody kisses up to you, either from fear or a feeling you have justice in mind. And it is durn hard to tell the difference in advance. It will surely help if he can show that Kubota has "gone too far", but not only are we not sure what that means, it seems that Hinjo can't show that.
Hinjo is probably wise to wait for more evidence.

[Porthos]

Only if they changed the definition in 3.0

Read my sig for more details on why Lawful Does Not Necessarily Equal "Must Follow The Law".

And if you still say that a Lawful Person Will Always Follow Laws, then just drop a Paladin in the middle of a Lawful Evil society and see how long he lasts before breaking a law. :D

[Dalboz of Gurth]

Read my sig for more details on why Lawful Does Not Necessarily Equal "Must Follow The Law".

And if you still say that a Lawful Person Will Always Follow Laws, then just drop a Paladin in the middle of a Lawful Evil society and see how long he lasts before breaking a law. :D

Here's the beeakdown of alignments in 2nd edition and their comparisons:

Lawful Evil : Using the letter of the law to commit evil acts and get away with it. Breaking the law sometimes is o-k as long as nobody knows about it, but you'd rather use society to defend your actions:
Example:
The Domain Lord Elena- a Fallen Paladin who thinks she's a paladin again, but who has been granted a ruler of her own domain. She writes and creates laws specifically designed to carry out genocide, mayhem and murder. She does so under the pretense that she is good, and she believes she's good too.
But she is evil. She won't break her own laws, if a law gets in her way she will re-write the law.
Domain Lord: Baron Urik von Kharkov. He is Lawful Evil and obeys all laws. However, there are no laws against him torturing people to death and laughing as he makes them pay a bloody price.

Neutral Evil : Someone who follows his own code as to what to obey to further their own ends. Neutral evil people will never specifically use the law to their own ends, they'll just ignore the law, and follow their own code of conduct. IF the law basically troublesome they'll ignore it. If the law helps them they'll use it. But they don't care either way.
Example:
Domain Lord Dominic d'Honaire. He crosses the line of obeying the law while people are looking and disobeying it when they turn their backs -- this is Neutral Evil because he does not abide by anything other than his own code.

Chaotic Evil : Someone who never obeys the law or even upholds their own code or personal oath. When they make it seem like they do, it's always a smoke screen -
Example:
Lord Soth. He'll guarantee people safe passage across his domain if a deal is struck, but he'll neglect to mention that safe passage will be after they're dead, or possibly raised from the dead as his own minions.



If these definitions have changed in 3e then they changed. Otherwise, that is how they are written in 2nd edition.

[dehro]

Or it's all alot simpler, and he wants to get a bigger bunch of followers before he settles down somewhere. Becoming the lord of the fugitives of azure city would be a nice way to do this. Could be the case that he's simply waiting for the right moment to assassinate Hinjo, take over the power, and settle down. This shouldn't be much of a problem with the people too, because i doubt most of them have Hinjo's dedication about this whole "Take back our homeland" issue.
why go for simple if you can devise a more complexe plot?:smallbiggrin:



You sayd "they share the common interest of getting back what's theirs" - but i wounder, whats really there to get back for Kubota? Most of his stuff has likely been trashed by now, and we don't know if the hob's bothered to rebuild anything, or if they simply razed every single building and replaced them with theyr own.
I agree that some wrecked buildings need to be patched up... but it doesn't really make sense to tear down all buildings of a town and rebuild them all over again...most likely xykon has just moved in..
anyway, if someone had come and invaded my home I think I'd at least give it a try to capture it back...specially if I have some armed forces available (albeit not enough, in this case)..



(i believe if you read GG you'll agree, and if you don't read GG, you should. :smallsmile: ).I don't. but I'll trust you :smallwink:



All of this "if Hinjo kills Kubota, the other lords will turn on him" assumes, for one, that Azure City's civilisation works like like medieval japan's. However, if it rather works like medieval europes, chances are pretty good nothing will happen. Either way, it'd probably a good idea to explain to the other lords that Kubota was getting out of hand, so he HAD to get rid of him, but that there is no need for further bloodshed, as he doesn't blame them... yadda yadda, in short, they get off the hook. Divide Kubotas might even amongst the other lords, and they might be fine with it.

I'm afraid the principle used to be the same in our midle age.. the agreement was sort of "you are king and we let you comand, provided you don't try to comand too much...and you don't touch at our rights... every time a ruler acted harshly, specially in troubled times, rebelions where something that could happen at the first wrong word.



Well, i don't think he'll reduce they'r loyality by putting Kubota under arrest.
Right now the have no respect for him at all, soon they'll believe they can get away with just about anything, if they don't even think so already.

If this was the case they'd have abbandoned him already. I suspect that the authority of the lords depend on their recognition by a commonly agreed ruler..without that, every subject currently aboard the ship could question authority and stability.

but all of this theorizing is a bit useless, I realize... I'll knock it off and wait to see what follows.

[cheesecake]

kubota is the lawnmower and hinjo is the grass!

[Crimson Avenger]

What says that paladin's suck at ruling better than the fact that for over fifty years they were ruled by a CG ruler who had no qualms about hiring mercenaries behind thatir backs to get done what needed to be done.

Kubato is obviously LE, he wishes to twist the system to better himself and his cronies, and if that involves ninja death squads to eliminate a stmbling block on the road to power, well that's just the EVIL part.

One could even make the case that nearly every tradition or status quo based society/government has a strong LE bent. Those in power twist the law to support the status quo, which, oddly enough, keeps them in power.

Fuedal japan
Roman Empire
Tudor England

All Lawful Evil societies

Dare I say USA

Azure City is just one more example of a Lawful society in which the Evil flourish. That's just human nature.

[Iranon]

Lawfulness isn't keyed to 'the law of te land' or individual codes (with the latter, you could rationalise that everyone is lawful), but something in between. Lawful people chose some external system of rules and generally stick to it.

Giving organised crime as an example: The mob may be lawful if they stick to a set of rules religiously, even when not expedient (having it clearly defined who is not to be accosted in a violent manner, whether there is a strict protocol within the organisation that's generally upheld, whether bargains are kept, whether there is an implied duty to help a 'friendly' gang agagainst a rival etc). Those would be indications of Lawfulness even if they commit every crime the society has a name for.

***

Not sure whether I should go into this, but the USA are difficult to peg alignment-wise. A few things about the country itself is run would make me agree with LE, but my experience with its citizens left pretty much the opposite impression.

[Crimson Avenger]

I meant to imply nothing about the personal character of any individual americans, just the system. A system that rewards individual greed, coruption, and crony-ism. Other than that we're pretty heavy on the good side.