So you want to be a boxer

[Emperor Demonking]

Can anyone give a build up to level 20 for a boxer?

[PlatinumJester]

Unarmed Swodsage with Power Attack and Shock Trooper maybe?

[ocato]

Boxers don't wear any armor, so I'd minorly splash monk for wisdom to AC.

[Kioran]

Boxing is actually a very weak style, so if you want to remain in the spirit of the guy who bashing another guy for over ten minutes before he drops (same goes for you), build a Barbarian with tons of Con and nice strength, take improved unarmed strike and lots of Greater resilency. You´ll have two-digit DR/-, a low damage output but a good chance to hit. Maybe power attack and take a level of Warmage for "fist of Stone" so you can use two-handed power attack.......

[Nowhere Girl]

Boxing is actually a very weak style

Common misconception.

Boxing is a very limited style, but it isn't a weak style. It is, in fact, the most efficient form of closed-fist, strike-above-the-waist fighting in the world, and in fact seems to be strictly superior (for the purposes of actually hurting another person) to certain other limited, yet overrated styles, such as karate (which is good for dojos, karate tournaments, and movies about squirrely kids learning how to fight from old Japanese men, and that's about it).

Boxing also seems to be the choice of striking style among mixed martial artists who want to round out their repetoire, and Bruce Lee himself incorporated boxing techniques into his own style (especially the footwork, but also I believe some of the hand techniques).

That said, it's nowhere near as efficient in a real "street fight" as say, jiu jitsu or krav maga, but then neither are karate or kung fu. So who cares? This is D&D, and the poster wants to play a boxer, darnit. :smalltongue:

As for the type of build, it would depend on what kind of boxer you want to portray. An infighter would be your Shock Troopery, charging, take-it-all-and-keep-coming bruiser with tons of Constitution and any feats that facilitate rushing in any pounding the target quickly.

An outfighter would look very, very different and would have many more "slippery" feats, such as possibly Elusive Target, Riposte (if the Dragon Companion is allowed), Evasive Reflexes (combine with Riposte and dance out of reach of a full attack before it's completed! :smallbiggrin:), and so on.

[Yahzi]

limited, yet overrated styles, such as karate
Boxing is very good for punching people. Arguably even better than any other style that dilutes training time for punching people with training time for doing anything else (like kicking people, or locks, throws, etc.)

In a real fight, limiting yourself to punching people might be a handicap. But limiting yourself to what you do really well is always a good strategy, so you're going to find it kind of balances out.

The problem with a boxer build is the same problem a real boxer would have - after you flatten the first few foes, the rest will grapple you. Because changing the rules when you're losing is also a good strategy. That's why Nowhere Girl's suggestions on slippery things is a good idea. Adventurers are supposed to be flexible, because they are supposed to find themselves in all sorts of situations.


and Bruce Lee himself incorporated boxing techniques into his own style (especially the footwork, but also I believe some of the hand techniques).
Really, they're all pretty much the same. It's the man, not the system. A good karate instructor teaches punching the same way a boxer teaches it.

[Aquaseafoam]

Improved Natural Attack and Superior Unarmed strike is a must.

[Jimp]

Don't forget to take Superior Unarmed Attack from ToB.

[Nowhere Girl]

The problem with a boxer build is the same problem a real boxer would have - after you flatten the first few foes, the rest will grapple you.

This is definitely a problem for real boxers, as boxing teaches nothing about grappling. (As an aside, neither does karate, and pure karate fighters suffer exactly the same problem facing grapplers.)

One other solution, especially if you want to be that bruising infighter, is to add something like Improved Grapple or Close-Quarters Fighting to your bag of tricks, and just describe yourself as a boxer with a streetfighting background (which is a classic infighter background anyway). That's more in line with the "feel" of a character like that, and either (or both!) will definitely help thwart the grapplers.

(Oh, and your outfighter could also make use of Evasive Reflexes and Close-Quarters Fighting to thwart grappling. They try to grapple, but it provokes an AoO no matter what thanks to Close-Quarters Fighting. You use the AoO to take a 5-foot step before their attack. You're out of reach of the attack, which now fails to happen. :smallbiggrin:)

[TheThan]

Ahhem


I think this is what you're looking for (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32000&highlight=prizefighter)

I made this specifically for boxing. it kicks butt too

[Aquaseafoam]

Homebrewed classes are usually not the answer. Every DM I know would laugh at you if you came at them with a Homebrew class.

[Azerian Kelimon]

I assume those are the DM's of the kind who think a spellcaster must be a blaster if arcane, healbot if divine, or that bards are jacks of all trades and not their own niche, right?

A well constructed homebrew should be allowed, unless you have also created some special and unique gorgonzola for it, period.

[Aquaseafoam]

Im talking about DM's who started in 1st Edition. Hell, they were so shocked by the addition of a ToB class that they banned to book outright. (A grave, grave injustice that I'm working to correct. Hell, I'm thinking of making a batman wizard next campaign he runs to show him the errors of his ways.) And yes, they do think that, only their views on clerics have really changed recently.

I'm personally more open as I'm working on a massive home brew campaign setting project.

[dyslexicfaser]

I assume those are the DM's of the kind who think a spellcaster must be a blaster if arcane, healbot if divine, or that bards are jacks of all trades and not their own niche, right?
Ooo, rebuttal.

For an outfighter technician boxer, I'd recommend monk3/fighter2 going into the Dervish PrC with versatile strike so your unarmed strikes fit the slashing requirement. I don't think Flurry of Blows stacks well with the dervish ability, so you'd probably need to go TWF, but he's highly mobile, he can spring attack (one outboxer strategy is to strike and move out of range before a slower infighter can retaliate), and he seems (to me) to fit the ideal to a tee.

[Fax Celestis]

Im talking about DM's who started in 1st Edition. Hell, they were so shocked by the addition of a ToB class that they banned to book outright. (A grave, grave injustice that I'm working to correct. Hell, I'm thinking of making a batman wizard next campaign he runs to show him the errors of his ways.) And yes, they do think that, only their views on clerics have really changed recently.

This is a perfectly valid, if limited, DM-ing style. I find, personally, that allowing homebrew makes for a more interesting game.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Hmm.... A Boxer PrC dould let you choose from 3 styles (classic ones: infighter, outfighter, or slugger), or pick Hybrid fighter and get some of the perks of each and not the capstones. An infighter gets something I can't think of, an outfighter gets the rapid blitz chain with a capstone of four attacks, and a slugger gets a whole lotta ton of power attacky things, like being able to trat his fists as two handed weapons for the purpose of Power Attack.

[Fax Celestis]

Hmm.... A Boxer PrC dould let you choose from 3 styles (classic ones: infighter, outfighter, or slugger), or pick Hybrid fighter and get some of the perks of each and not the capstones. An infighter gets something I can't think of, an outfighter gets the rapid blitz chain with a capstone of four attacks, and a slugger gets a whole lotta ton of power attacky things, like being able to trat his fists as two handed weapons for the purpose of Power Attack.

You mean like this? (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Brawler)

[Ossian]

On the other hand he's not building a Muhammad Ali or a Primo Carnera. There is a good chance his character won't just do that for sports and a living, leading a happied married life somewhere outside the ring.
Assuming that mr. Ironhand here is going to go adventuring, facing monsters and relying on the bare strength of his fantasy-plot-powered hands, I'd definitely go for a monk/barbarian build (that is, 2 levels of monk and the rest barbarian). You should be ok with the PC having improved grapple alongside with other more punching feats. It's not today's boxe, and he's got to be no ordinary guy to behave like Helm Hammerhand. Combat Reflexes are basic and very nice to have, if you go there barehanded, and improved initiative for sure. Of course, improve critical (unarmed) as soon as you hit BAB +8 !!!

O.

[#Raptor]

Common misconception.

Boxing is a very limited style, but it isn't a weak style. It is, in fact, the most efficient form of closed-fist, strike-above-the-waist fighting in the world, and in fact seems to be strictly superior (for the purposes of actually hurting another person) True, at least as long as both opponents are standing on theyr feet.

to certain other limited, yet overrated styles, such as karate (which is good for dojos, karate tournaments, and movies about squirrely kids learning how to fight from old Japanese men, and that's about it).
QFT! :smallbiggrin: Although i'd view Kyokushin and other full-contact styles as a exception to the rule. I'm not saying Kyokushin is more efficent than boxing, but it still has some value for self-defense.

That said, it's nowhere near as efficient in a real "street fight" as say, jiu jitsu or krav maga, but then neither are karate or kung fu.
Imho boxing is easily up there with jj and km, but i'd rate thaiboxing, MMA-stuff, most FMA styles as well as JKD as better.

Really, they're all pretty much the same. It's the man, not the system. A good karate instructor teaches punching the same way a boxer teaches it.
If this would be the case, there wouldn't be alot of good karate instructors...
So no, the man is not the only thing that matters.
Maybe in theory, but not in reality.
Take 200 equal clones, give 100 of them 6 months training with a average boxing teacher and give the other 100 of them 6 months training with a average karate trainer, let em fight it out in 1 vs 1 matches that end with the opponents death or knockout (only rule: no weapons).
Easily 70-80% of the fights, the boxer will win. Wanna raise that number even more? Replace boxing with a mix of Brasilian Jiu-Jitsu and Thaiboxing, or maybe some FMA style or JKD.


/edit: Sorry for all the off-topic jabbering, but i felt i'd have to clear some things up.

[Solo]

Is there such a thing as an average boxing trainer, or karate trainer?

[dyslexicfaser]

Take 200 equal clones, give 100 of them 6 months training with a average boxing teacher and give the other 100 of them 6 months training with a average karate trainer, let em fight it out in 1 vs 1 matches that end with the opponents death or knockout (only rule: no weapons).
Easily 70-80% of the fights, the boxer will win.
Well, those numbers sure are convincing.

[SadisticFishing]

Wow a martial arts discussion! Why does no one ever mention Systema? Sigh :P

Yeah, Muay Thai is far more effective than boxing, for all kinds of reasons. Especially if people are coming at you with swords, you want to know how to use your entire body as much as your arms.

Straight American boxing is not effective against swords and magic :(

But, I think the Barbarian build is the way to go for a straight boxer, taking Improved Unarmed Strike and Superior Unarmed Strike.

[Dullyanna]

If people are coming at you with swords (Assuming they're at leasts slightly competent) you're most likely ****ed... Unless you run away quickly. Actually, I'd say you're in trouble if you're just facing a group of unarmed thugs, irregardless of where you learned to fight.

Anyway, I'll second the use of TOB. Also, go for feats and/or abilities that let you do something an armed fighter can't. Oh, and there's a pugilist-type fighter variant in the PHB2 (I can't remember if it's any good, though).

[Temp]

Just third-ing the ToB. Unarmed Stone Dragon/Diamond Mind Swordsages are your friend. Maybe a bit of non-Jump-based Tiger Claw thrown in.

[Jayabalard]

Im talking about DM's who started in 1st Edition. DM's that I know started in 1sxt edition too, and none of them have trouble with homebrewed classes (though they're apt to do some tweaking of thier own before they allow it. Just in general, people that I know that started playing in 1ed are much more likely to heavily use homebrew and are less interested in the holy book of RAW than people who started playing later.

[ronnyfire]

"But limiting yourself to what you do really well is always a good strategy"

wow.. how wrong could you be?
never limit yourself to things in a fight.. you become far to predictable too fast

[Rachel Lorelei]

I've been smacked around the ring by a few boxers, and have smacked a few around. Being punched by a boxer who's half again your mass is not fun, but in general, I don't really see boxing as that exceptional. And someone with equal experience and muscle mass who's trained to use elbows and knees and long kicks will generally keep a boxer away and then hammer them hard when they do close. Sure, boxing teaches you how to punch really well, but that only goes so far--and it doesn't even get into one-inch-punch type stuff, either (and while a one-inch-punch isn't exactly practical, being able to generate energy without much wind-up or room is very useful).

Of course, trying to box someone with a sword--or even a knife--is a phenomenally bad idea.
Trying to box an ogre is silly.
Trying to box a dragon is... well, um, go for it.

A level 20 build for a boxer might be a Warrior 20, king of the prize-fighting circuit. Boxers aren't adventurers. Anyone stupid enough to try and punch their way through a dungeon is going to get killed in short order.

Unless they know some serious fantasy-style kung fu.

[Crow]

wow.. how wrong could you be?
never limit yourself to things in a fight.. you become far to predictable too fast

Yes, but the majority of people out there don't fight. If you have some boxing under your belt, even though it is more of a sporting skill, you are going to be far better off than most mexican gang-bangers.

People who say to never limit yourself to what you do well, usually have not been in too many fights. In a non-sporting environment, a fight is usually too short to NOT limit yourself to what you do well. At least if you want to win...

[OneWinged4ngel]

Best bet is probably with an unarmed swordsage of some sort, as has already been mentioned, or homebrewing. Of course, you're already embellishing the whole concept of boxing to justify the idea of punching out a dragon, so it's totally okay if a technique doesn't fit exactly with the *real* style.

[Grynning]

Just a slight correction on the topic of martial arts. Someone up there mentioned JKD as a "style" and listed it as being equal to/superior to certain others. Jeet Kun Do is not a style per se, it's a system that teaches a fighter to make use of the techniques that work best for them, keeping only what is useful from a variety of sources. No two JKD practitioners will fight the same way, it was really the beginnings of the concept of "mixed" martial arts. For a more complete explanation, look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeet_Kun_Do

On the topic of building a D&D boxer, I second the use of close-quarters fighting feat, countering a grapple with a strike is the best idea if you're not good at grappling (actually, learning to sprawl is, but I don't think there's an equivalent to that in the rules, except maybe beating the other guy's grapple check). I might also recommend dipping levels in Swashbuckler or Duelist if you're going for a lightweight/scrapper type, since Unarmed Strikes are light weapons and both classes offer some nice abilities for lightly armored characters. Of course this won't help your damage output much, but you're playing an unarmed character in D&D. Rogue or Scout levels may be a good idea as well, precision damage will help a lot. Scout/Barbarian with the Spring attack progression could dish it out pretty well.

[Nowhere Girl]

I've been smacked around the ring by a few boxers, and have smacked a few around. Being punched by a boxer who's half again your mass is not fun, but in general, I don't really see boxing as that exceptional. And someone with equal experience and muscle mass who's trained to use elbows and knees and long kicks will generally keep a boxer away and then hammer them hard when they do close. Sure, boxing teaches you how to punch really well, but that only goes so far--and it doesn't even get into one-inch-punch type stuff, either (and while a one-inch-punch isn't exactly practical, being able to generate energy without much wind-up or room is very useful).

Of course, trying to box someone with a sword--or even a knife--is a phenomenally bad idea.
Trying to box an ogre is silly.
Trying to box a dragon is... well, um, go for it.

A level 20 build for a boxer might be a Warrior 20, king of the prize-fighting circuit. Boxers aren't adventurers. Anyone stupid enough to try and punch their way through a dungeon is going to get killed in short order.

Unless they know some serious fantasy-style kung fu.

... such as a fantasy-style boxer, such as you might see in an anime (think Balrog or Dudley for inspiration here -- either one perfectly capable of ripping apart an automobile with their bare hands in a matter of seconds), right from the Japanese themselves, yes right from the same people who pretty much ever gave us the idea of going empty-handed when perfectly good weapons are available to begin with.

Why is it so hard to imagine? A boxer whose technique is so phenomenal as to be able to punch through a dungeon is no sillier than a kung fu artist doing it. In fact, in a way it's less silly, because kung fu is garbage, while boxing is merely incomplete. :smalltongue:

For that matter, the idea of taking on a dragon at all, with anything short of exceedingly powerful magic, is silly. How are you killing it with a sword that's smaller than its fingernails?

But when you come to that, the idea of magic itself is silly, so where does that leave us? High fantasy comes to a standstill because it doesn't make sense?

No. A fantasy boxer need not be the same thing as a real boxer. Let Street Fighter be your guide. :smallwink:

[Closet_Skeleton]

No two JKD practitioners will fight the same way

Presuming they're any good at it.

I also made a boxer like monk Prc ages ago. Yay bandwagon :smallamused:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35803&highlight=monk

[Kioran]

So no, the man is not the only thing that matters.
Maybe in theory, but not in reality.
Take 200 equal clones, give 100 of them 6 months training with a average boxing teacher and give the other 100 of them 6 months training with a average karate trainer, let em fight it out in 1 vs 1 matches that end with the opponents death or knockout (only rule: no weapons).
Easily 70-80% of the fights, the boxer will win. Wanna raise that number even more? Replace boxing with a mix of Brasilian Jiu-Jitsu and Thaiboxing, or maybe some FMA style or JKD.

There are styles with different curves of learning - kickboxing, Muay Thai or Ving Chun have very steep curves in the beginning, but level off faster, whereas Karate, Taekwon-do or some Kung-fu-styles take 2 Years before you actually reap benefits from it - a talented brawler will probably take down most of the striking martial artist yellow-belts.
But as soon as you´ve cleared a certain threshold, your capabilites exceed those of people trained in less, shall we say "holistic" styles. No boxer on this planet can shatter coconuts lying on a table with his fists - the art is applying all the intially useless stuff in a fight, and that´s what real black belts(those who haven´t won them in the lottery - I´m talking a decade of training here) do.
K-1 or MMA-Tournaments, while highly amusing and somewhat telling, never tell the whole story - most things that make real martial artists especially dangerous (mainly Kung-fu-paractitioners) like Nerve-strikes or anti-joint techniques are barred, and that boxers and grapplers rule is no surprise, since they get to keep most of their repertoire.

In a straight, balls-to-the-wall fight? Give me traditional Martial Arts any time of the day, if only for additional versatility. Anyways, if you want your "Boxer" to be effective and not realistic, you should probably make him a ToB Char, I´d suggest Warblade/Barbarian or somesuch.......

[Grynning]

K-1 or MMA-Tournaments, while highly amusing and somewhat telling, never tell the whole story - most things that make real martial artists especially dangerous (mainly Kung-fu-paractitioners) like Nerve-strikes or anti-joint techniques are barred, and that boxers and grapplers rule is no surprise, since they get to keep most of their repertoire.


The problem with saying that traditional arts only lose in competition because they can't use their uber-deadly secret nerve strike techniques or whatever is that those techniques cannot be trained reliably or trained full-contact. How do you know you'll actually be able to use a move that you've never actually done to somebody due to it's "too dangerous" nature when someone is beating your face in?
I'm not what you would call a particularly well-trained fighter, but I've sparred with them, nor would I consider myself to be a street fighter, because I don't pick "real" fights, but I've been in a couple. However, my experiences have taught me one thing: the techniques that get used are the simplest ones to pull off. A jab, a hook, a snap-kick, those are easy to use and are incorporated into almost every fighting style. Throws, locks, and wrestling are similarly useful. Small joint manipulation, nerve strikes? Learned how to do 'em, sure. Ever had the time to think about applying one in fight? Nope.

[Iku Rex]

No boxer on this planet can shatter coconuts lying on a table with his fists ...And this is important to keep in mind for people who fear attack by table-sitting coconuts. :smallwink:

K-1 or MMA-Tournaments, while highly amusing and somewhat telling, never tell the whole story - most things that make real martial artists especially dangerous (mainly Kung-fu-paractitioners) like Nerve-strikes or anti-joint techniques are barred, and that boxers and grapplers rule is no surprise, since they get to keep most of their repertoire.I can't think of any rule preventing "nerve-strikes", even in the more rules-heavy MMA competitions.

Anti-joint techniques are not only allowed, they are common in MMA. Petty stuff like finger-breaking (small joint manipulation) is often not allowed, but even when it is it's not really a popular technique.

[KIDS]

Oh by the gods, stop flaming Karate. It seems the universal scapegoat for everything, no matter if people in question have any experience with martial arts or anything.

That said, a fighter/barbarian or fighter/monk with Superior Unarmed Strike, Greater Resilience, Improved Natural Attack and such can be ok, but as usual, ToB will let you have better and more flavorful things in whatever shape you like them.

[UserClone]

Dragon #310 Had a fun and interesting base class variant of the fighter, called the Pugilist. That might be a good base class on which you could stack one of those PrCs.:smallsmile:

[#Raptor]

Just a slight correction on the topic of martial arts. Someone up there mentioned JKD as a "style" and listed it as being equal to/superior to certain others. Jeet Kun Do is not a style per se, it's a system that teaches a fighter to make use of the techniques that work best for them, keeping only what is useful from a variety of sources. No two JKD practitioners will fight the same way, it was really the beginnings of the concept of "mixed" martial arts. For a more complete explanation, look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeet_Kun_Do
I didn't explicitly call it a stye, but i agree mostly about your explaination of JKD. However it should be pointed out that while JKD could be seen as the beginning of the MMA concept, MMA doesn't equal JKD.


Is there such a thing as an average boxing trainer, or karate trainer?
Arf. Ok, tricky question. Maybe. But its hard to come up with the definiton of a average karate trainer, especially with the non-contact styles. The definition of a average boxing trainer is a bit easier: A trainer who already had a few of his boxers fight in a amateur league and overall his boxers had a 50/50 win/loose rate.


LOL @ Iku Rex. Exactly my thoughts on the menacing coconuts. :smallbiggrin: