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Rowanomicon
2007-11-11, 01:49 AM
I'm assuming Rogue, but what other classes would work (and where do they come from)?

Obviously you would max out your ranks in UMD.

Also obviously necessary is high Charisma.

Magical Aptitude and Skill Focus: UMD would be good choices of feats I think.

UMD, by itself isn't going to provide a build. It needs something that UMD really helps it do. So, the main question is: besides UMD what should/could this build focus on and what MDs should the build focus on Uing?

UMD = Use Magic Device

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-11, 01:52 AM
Artificer would be the obvious class choice, followed by warlock, as they both gain the ability to take 10 on UMD.

Bard is also a good choice, as they can legitimately use alot of magic items, and are charisma-based casters with UMD as a class skill.

Rogue's make great use of wands of Ray of Frost, or Orb spells. Flat-footed touch attacks for the win! Especially since your sneak attack damage is treated as the same type of damage as the attack. A Ray of Frost at something with the fire subtype effectively empowers your sneak attack, because it is all cold damage.

tyckspoon
2007-11-11, 02:08 AM
UMD, by itself isn't going to provide a build. It needs something that UMD really helps it do. So, the main question is: besides UMD what should/could this build focus on and what MDs should the build focus on Uing?

UMD = Use Magic Device

Anything with UMD as a class skill is a candidate for a UMD-based build, obviously; aside from the ones mentioned, Factotum (Dungeonscape) has all skills as class skills and is generally a good bet for a skill-based character.

The primary tool of a UMD build is pretending to be a wizard, cleric, druid, bard, etc... all at the same time. If you can acquire a scroll, wand, staff, or rod with a spell on it, you can use it. The other features of UMD like mimic race, alignment, etc aren't very commonly called for, but they're nice to have around if you run into an Evil item or something and want to use it without penalties.

For a Rogue in particular, you'll probably want to concentrate on spells that enhance your other class features. Spells like Camouflage and Disguise Self can make your already high skill checks nigh unbeatable. Weaponlike spells, which are those that require an attack roll, mostly (like Ray of Frost) will let you make your sneak attacks as touch attacks. And, of course, there's becoming invisible, which is one of the most useful things a Rogue can get. It's very useful to not have to rely on another person to do that for you.

JaxGaret
2007-11-11, 02:13 AM
Exemplar comes to mind as one of the best choices if you want to max a particular skill.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-11-11, 03:25 AM
ANY class with UMD as a class skill is good for using UMD, but Artificers focus around it entirely. Any artificer build is gonna be a UMD build.


Also obviously necessary is high Charisma. You're wrong here. There's a very good reason the Artificer optimization guides tell you NOT to focus in Charisma, despite Artificers needing UMD more than any other class. There's a good reason for that. You can get your UMD high enough to handle anything you need extremely at fairly low level without much of an investment in Cha... you just need to know how to stack up the little bonuses.

A few tips to get you started:

1) Use a masterwork tool. There are a hundred ways to justify a +2 UMD masterwork tool to your DM (if he is skeptical for some reason), just be creative and pick something that suits the flavor of your setting and your character. Note that this is in no way a house rule: The RAW explicitly allows for +2 to any skill.

2) Make use of the synergies. Obvious one for +2 or +4 bonus.

3) For Bards or people with enough UMD to use a wand all the time: Use Magic Savant, a level 2 bard spell from Complete Mage. It gives you a +4 to UMD, OR if you have at least 10 ranks (i.e. you're level 7+) then it lets you take 10, meaning you'll never fail a UMD check ever for 1 round/level (cast as a swift action).

4) For Rogues: Depending on your interpretation of Skill Mastery, you can use that for UMD.

5) For Artificers: a first level infusion will give you a hefty bonus to whatever skill you want for a pretty good duration. Use that!

6) If custom items are allowed, MAKE A +UMD ITEM. A +5 one will only be 2500, and it'll let you get up to "I only fail on a 1" level UMD checks really early (I think my last artificer did it at level 4, with no feats that help UMD and 12 Cha, with just a +5 UMD item. Lessee... I think it was +4 synergies, +2 tool, +1 cha, +7 ranks, +5 item, +4 skill infusion, total +23, or +19 unbuffed. I might have had something else too, but it's been a while.)

7) If you want to push the cheese level (you shouldn't) you can use an Item Familiar.

8) Skill Focus: UMD is only really worth it if you only are going to be playing a low level game. If you get to mid level, you'll quickly start regretting the feat as it becomes absolutely useless.

9) Warlocks and Artificers: Obvious class abilities.

10) Even if custom items aren't allowed, there are some items that give you +UMD for SCROLLS, and scrolls are harder to activate and really the only thing you really NEED high UMD for (unless you're going for Super UMD Cheese Staffs). Buy them instead! (Can't remember item names offhand and I'm away from my books, but I'll go look later if no one else fills in the blank). I believe the spectacles that gave +5 UMD for scrolls and +5 spellcraft for some specific purpouse were 2500g.

Edit: Of course, I'm assuming you want to be PRACTICAL here, instead of going for ultra-staff-cheese, which deserves different advice. But often, such stupidness isn't going to be allowed.

Rowanomicon
2007-11-11, 03:58 AM
Thanks.

Could you give an example of something you'd use as a UMD tool?

I was referring to a low-level game when I mentions those feats (sorry for not clarifying). The idea was to have a character that could reliably use UMD from as early on a possible.

Your assumption about wanting practical rather than cheesy discussion is correct.

On a side note this has gotten me thinking about re-designing UMD and making a homebrew system for it. If I do I'll put a link in this thread.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-11, 04:05 AM
A book of frequently used command words?

A lucky bracelet?

A magical tuning fork?

OneWinged4ngel
2007-11-11, 04:16 AM
Could you give an example of something you'd use as a UMD tool? My old arti had a small, specially cut dragonshard chained around his wrist that helped him focus arcane energies. I could give dozens more examples from Rincewind's Tome of Common Magics to a gemstone shard (or "insert random arcane metal in your setting here") to a specially treated lens that reacts to very nearby spell completion processes, revealing that you're getting closer to "guessing" the right command word as tiny sparks of arcane energy are witnessed, but IIRC there's already a thread on the subject on the WotC boards, so instead of taking my time to do that I recommend just googling. Or... you know... taking my original advice and being creative yourself.


I was referring to a low-level game when I mentions those feats (sorry for not clarifying). The idea was to have a character that could reliably use UMD from as early on a possible. Well, my old arti hit 95% success at level 4 (might have been earlier, but the campaign STARTED at level 4). And besides, once you can hit +19, you can just activate a wand of Magic Savant to get 100% on anything up to DC29.


Your assumption about wanting practical rather than cheesy discussion is correct. Yay.

Fishy
2007-11-11, 04:17 AM
Other UMD users include Beguiler, Spellthief (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a&page=1), Dragonfire Adept (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2), and the Assassin and Avenger (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a) prestige classes. Go nuts.

JaxGaret
2007-11-11, 04:52 AM
I'll reiterate my earlier point: take a level in Exemplar for the Skill Artistry ability to gain a +4 to your UMD check and the Skill Mastery ability to take 10 on UMD checks.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-11-11, 05:32 AM
I'll reiterate my earlier point: take a level in Exemplar for the Skill Artistry ability to gain a +4 to your UMD check Not really worth it. You'd be better off taking a level of Marshal, and only if you're going for the Staff of Cheese.


Skill Mastery ability to take 10 on UMD checks.
Note that there's some controversy on whether this actually is possible, due to the wording of Skill Mastery.

Kellus
2007-11-11, 05:34 AM
You could always play a Fang of Lolth (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20011207). If you want to turn into a spider, that is.

Curmudgeon
2007-11-11, 06:38 AM
4) For Rogues: Depending on your interpretation of Skill Mastery, you can use that for UMD. The FAQ says you can't.
Can a rogue with skill mastery take 10 on a Use Magic Device check?
No. The rogue’s skill mastery class feature states that “she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so.” This only applies to skills that allow a character to take 10 in nonstressful situations; if a skill simply doesn’t allow a character to take 10 under any circumstances (such as Use Magic Device), skill mastery provides no benefit.

6) If custom items are allowed, MAKE A +UMD ITEM. A +5 one will only be 2500, and it'll let you get up to "I only fail on a 1" level UMD checks really early As with any other skill check, a 1 is not an automatic failure. You should build up your UMD modifier so your check succeeds on a rolled 1.

Rowanomicon
2007-11-11, 05:42 PM
Firstly I'd like to thank everyone who has contributed to this discussion.
I'll be clear and let you know this isn't a character I'm building for a specific game. It's just something I wanted to discuss as discussion is a good way to learn.

I would also like to thank people even for correcting me where I was mistaken. That is also a great way to share and advance knowledge.


so instead of taking my time to do that I recommend just googling. Or... you know... taking my original advice and being creative yourself.

However, I could do without this.
I simply asked you for an example of something you were talking about.
I never asked you to build things for me so I don't have to be creative myself.
If you did not want to give an example you could have either not responded or responded telling me "no," "google it," or "there's already a thread on the WotC boards."
Your are not required to post in this thread. You do so of your own free will and any time you spend on it is because you made the choice to do so. I cannot waste your time, even if I try; only you can choose to take the time to post in this thread.
I asked for an example because I thought that you could contribute to the discussion. That's a compliment where I come from.

All that being said, I'd like very much for this discussion to continue on in a constructive and civil manner.

*If anyone takes personal issue with me please take it up with me via PM rather than mucking up a perfectly good thread with petty childishness. (I think I might have to put a disclaimer in my sig, this is getting ridiculous.)

OneWinged4ngel
2007-11-11, 06:09 PM
Firstly I'd like to thank everyone who has contributed to this discussion.
I'll be clear and let you know this isn't a character I'm building for a specific game. It's just something I wanted to discuss as discussion is a good way to learn.

I would also like to thank people even for correcting me where I was mistaken. That is also a great way to share and advance knowledge.



However, I could do without this.
I simply asked you for an example of something you were talking about.
I never asked you to build things for me so I don't have to be creative myself.
If you did not want to give an example you could have either not responded or responded telling me "no," "google it," or "there's already a thread on the WotC boards."
Your are not required to post in this thread. You do so of your own free will and any time you spend on it is because you made the choice to do so. I cannot waste your time, even if I try; only you can choose to take the time to post in this thread.
I asked for an example because I thought that you could contribute to the discussion. That's a compliment where I come from.

All that being said, I'd like very much for this discussion to continue on in a constructive and civil manner.

*If anyone takes personal issue with me please take it up with me via PM rather than mucking up a perfectly good thread with petty childishness. (I think I might have to put a disclaimer in my sig, this is getting ridiculous.)

I believe I gave you three examples. And you're complaining about me suggesting google for more examples, and reiterating my original advice. Yeah, I can see how you're being very civil by attacking the guy providing the most help to you because of an imagined slight. :smallannoyed:


The FAQ says you can't. I realize this. I actually expressly noted that it was "depending on your interpretation" and that "controversy surrounded the issue." Also note that the FAQ is not considered official canon, last I checked (unlike errata).



As with any other skill check, a 1 is not an automatic failure. You should build up your UMD modifier so your check succeeds on a rolled 1.

Wow, for some reason I thought it was an exception to the rule. Now that I look at the UMD entry again, I can't seem to figure out where I got that impression, except from the entry that says...


A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers. But that's under activating scrolls, not UMD. If I was wrong (and it looks like I am), that makes UMD even EASIER than before! :smallbiggrin:

So... boo on me for posting at 4 in the morning.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-11-11, 06:21 PM
((Stupid double posts... hate them soooo much))

Rowanomicon
2007-11-11, 06:47 PM
When exactly did I attack you, or anyone?

I thanked you for your input and I thank you for the examples you provided. As I said, I thought it would be worth it to see some of your examples, and it was. Thank you.

What was unnecessary was you telling me that you recommend googling it instead of taking your time. You are the one who took the time to respond to me (and I appreciated the examples). Also "you can be creative with this" is helpful, but "I already told you to be creative, but you refused and thus wasted my time" is not.

Before you go talking about me putting words in your mouth I know those are not direct quotes. However, you say that I took your time and instead should have taken your original advice (or used google). Also the use of "...you know..." implies stupidity or incompetence on my part.

If you are going to continue in the manner you have please refrain from posting in threads that I start. It would be a shame to lose your positive input, but It would be worth is to also lose the negative.

Thank you.


All that being said, I'd like very much for this discussion to continue on in a constructive and civil manner.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-11-11, 07:07 PM
When exactly did I attack you, or anyone?

I thanked you for your input and I thank you for the examples you provided. As I said, I thought it would be worth it to see some of your examples, and it was. Thank you.

What was unnecessary was you telling me that you recommend googling it instead of taking your time. You are the one who took the time to respond to me (and I appreciated the examples). Also "you can be creative with this" is helpful, but "I already told you to be creative, but you refused and thus wasted my time" is not.

Before you go talking about me putting words in your mouth I know those are not direct quotes. However, you say that I took your time and instead should have taken your original advice (or used google). Also the use of "...you know..." implies stupidity or incompetence on my part.

If you are going to continue in the manner you have please refrain from posting in threads that I start. It would be a shame to lose your positive input, but It would be worth is to also lose the negative.

Thank you.

You ARE putting words in my mouth. I didn't want to take up my own time making a list because I'm lazy and moreover I don't think it serves much of a point if there's already a thread up on it.

Like I said, attacking me over an imagined slight.

Fax Celestis
2007-11-11, 07:13 PM
Worthwhile for pretty much any UMD-centric build is the Magic Device Attunement (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Magic_Device_Attunement,CM) feat from CMage. In essence, it allows you to forgo using UMD checks if you've successfully activated the item in the past 24 hours.

Potentially worthwhile (that is, in the right build) is Metamagic Spell Trigger (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Metamagic_Spell_Trigger,CM): it has potential for good use, but from my experience you won't use it very often, and it still requires you to spend other feats on metamagic. Unless you've already got casting (or can get casting: say, by being a spellthief), Metamagic Spell Trigger and the metamagic feats to go with it are probably going to be nothing more than a feat drain.

Also potentially worthwhile if you have your own casting ability is the Channel Charge (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Channel_Charge,all) feat from LEoF, but the siphon and wand modulation spells from CScn do the same thing more efficiently.

Reckless Wand Wielder (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Reckless_Wand_Wielder,all) has potential, since it effectively gives you the ability to heighten spell trigger items.

For the UPDer, or for a DM who'll let you transpose "wand" for "dorje" in this feat, Dorje Mastery (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Dorje_Mastery,all) is a good choice.

Double Wand Wielder (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Double_Wand_Wielder,all) is one of those feats that looks good on paper, but probably isn't worthwhile in actual play. I have seen it put to startlingly good use, but it's a specialization of the UMDer that requires a particular type of build. It's probably best coupled with Wandstrike and some method of pounce.

Universally good, though, is the Wand Mastery (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Wand_Mastery,all) feat. +2 to caster level, +2 to DCs? Yes please.

If you focus on wands as your primary source of UMD material, wand bracers from Dungeonscape are excellent. Wear one on each hand and have instant access to up to ten wands.

See if you can get your hands on scepters (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Craft_Scepter,all) at higher levels. They're akin to wands, but can hold higher-level spells.

As far as the epic playing field goes, I am personally hard-pressed to find a better feat for the UMDer than Wand Expertise (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Wand_Expertise,all) coupled with Enhance Item (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Enhance_Item,all). Of course, UMD in an epic field is a bit like a high-schooler racing against Olympic-class swimmers: he can do it, but damn if it's not going to look sad.

Rowanomicon
2007-11-11, 07:43 PM
Thank you very much fax, I'll definitely look through those things.

Wand Bracers sound like a good idea.

So does MD Attunement.