OOTS #271 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[That Lanky Bugger]

Awesome! I've been waiting!

Edit: And I'd like to add that today's comic was fantastic. That bit at the end about treating Banjo as a hostile witness was golden.

[Aruthra]

Curses! No resolution to the Miko incident yet. But I guess that's to be expected.

[Faryn]

First Page, and my first posting here =)


But the question remains, whats with belkar and miko?

Ain't it friday yet? =/

[AmoDman]

Wait, why's that raven cawing? It can speak common, lol.

edit: Well, whatever it was that V chose as it's language it can speak, anyway.

[Hermes]

Ha! Wonderful strip. I love the look back at all the memorable (or semi-memorable) characters from post-destruction rune. And was that Frued? If so, I was greatly amused by that as well.

I also laugh at those who anguished because the strip was a little late... No Miko/Belkar scene for you, ya addicts. :P ;D

[Lilly]

*applauds* Awesome strip Rich.

I just spent 5 minutes laughing at it.

"Curse you trecherious avian!"

[soozenw]

this is great!! you never cease to amuse, rich. ;D

[Miles Invictus]

Woohoo! First page!

So, uh, yeah. They're screwed. Miko/Belkar spin-off series, anyone? ;D

[Duskrider_Moogle]

Was the female Tiresias supposed to be translucent?

ps awesome

[PhoeKun]

Wait, why's that raven cawing? It can speak common, lol.

edit: Well, whatever it was that V chose as it's language it can speak, anyway.

Oh he can speak common, he just chooses not to.

As to todays comic:

Totally worth the wait. I second Lilly's comment.

This really was the only way to go on after the tension in #270. Besides, any strip with a flumpf in it is a good one by me!

EDIT: I'm dumb

[Vargtass]

Flumpfs rule!

Take your time...

... brilliant! If for nothing else, OoTS should get into trouble for troubling these innocent creatures... repeatedly! ;)

Now, I'm looking forward to what Defense may call... but I suppose that we'll savour an interlude of Belkar vs Miko first!

[Nerd-o-rama]

Thank you, oh merciful Giant, for giving everyone something else to talk about. Everyone's favorite characters are back! The Fiendish Cockroach, the Flumph, Goblin Ensign #2358, all of 'em!

Wait, why's that raven cawing? It can speak common, lol.

edit: Well, whatever it was that V chose as it's language it can speak, anyway.
Panel 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=155)

[NovaNightmare]

Very Funny, I like the witnesses. The Raven is a great touch! ;D

[Abd al-Azrad]

Yes. The raven ruled that strip.

Serves you right, V, for taking your class features for granted.

God, I never find a use for that dang familiar.

[Bakta]

One wonders why would the raven turns against V. is this a union thing?.

[Tharr]

Bring on Xykon and the Linear Guild.
How about all the inn people.
The bandit folk and trees for the dwarf.
Poor Haley cannot talk right.
Thog not like truth chair where be that old Miko.

[DukeP]

Dear Mr Giant.

You, sir, are such a tease. :)

~~DukeP~~

[Tetsusaiga]

Excellent strip, as usual.
One question, aren't familiers, by definition, extremly loyal to their masters? I'm not a big D&D player (but I understand the basics) but I thaught familers were automatically loyal to their masters cause?

[Vampire_Boy]

What, is that V's familiar testifying against them? Isn't that something againt the, oh, I don't know, the nature of familiars? ;D

[SnowBear]

Loved it, well worth the wait. The “treacherous avian” was the highlight of the strip.


Hey...my first post!!!

[Faryn]

Excellent strip, as usual.
One question, aren't familiers, by definition, extremly loyal to their masters? I'm not a big D&D player (but I understand the basics) but I thaught familers were automatically loyal to their masters cause?


Its a trial, people are supposed to say the "Truth" at Trials, right? =P

He could have chosen to remain silent though I guess =P

[Folie]

I know that this has already been asked, but I've got to know: why is the woman in the second panel translucent?

I don't need to know what the raven is saying: I'm sure it's something both damning and hilarious. As far as I can see it, the Order's going to need to get deus ex machina'd out of there.

[Antina]

Excellent strip, as usual.
One question, aren't familiers, by definition, extremly loyal to their masters? I'm not a big D&D player (but I understand the basics) but I thaught familers were automatically loyal to their masters cause?


The used description "Chair of truth" could implicate, that it´s magic forces one to SPEAK and the whole truth he or she knows of.

[Aiani]

I love Elan! He is the kinda of person who I'm not sure I could hang out with very often because he would get you into trouble but man would it be funny and always interesting.

[rwald]

My theory on the translucent chick is that diviners of the Sapphire Guild get spiffy chameleon-camouflage robes. Why would they need such things? Uh...to make counter-divination harder! Yea, that's it!

[mimicgogo]

I love the blind seer. So allusionary, brilliant.

Just for the record, was this Monday's comic late, can we expect one on Wednesday, or are we waiting until Friday?

[Tharr]

Is that chic also blinded.

[rosebud]

Okay, I have to admit complete confusion. There's no case I can see.

- Divination: Yes, they touched the self-destruct rune.
- Goblin: He was not a witness to the act and the
Goblin was serving an Evil master.
- Cockroach (wow, amusing to see animals testify):
Okay, yes, he touched the self-destruct rune.
- Blackwing: Did the bird appear more than once (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=3) in the dungeon?
If so, it wasn't a witness to anything much.
- Town person: Yes, the castle blew up.
- Doctor: Were they given a psych interview?
- Flumph: They were not charged with any crimes against the flumph, so all
it can relevantly testify is that, shucks, they blew up the mountain.

Is it just me, or is there no case? Plus, Elan testifying with Banjo would be an ideal secondary defense.

Basically, all they've shown is that they touched the self-destruct rune. This says nothing about culpability for weakening the fabric of the universe or destruction of the gate, for that matter. Consequently, I don't understand this strip. :(

[Kaerou]

hahaha, i love the avian panel, that was golden!

[Eldhrin]

Given that Shojo's people appear to equate blowing up the gate (whether deliberately or not) with deliberately weakening the fabric of the Universe, that's all they need to prove for the prosecution. I can only see a defense based on that assumption being realistic, otherwise they're completely stuck.

Although from the sound of it, Elan's completely stuck anyway. I doubt Banjo will get him off on mental health grounds, unless somehow the Shojo bunch decide he is a real God and one of the Good Guys...

[Krytha]

hooray! I missed my monday fix and the shakes started to set in.... You sorta wonder what kind of verdict can be given. THEY didnt touch the run, Elan did but he's a certifiable idiot which I guess is sort of like not guilty because of insanity. The Order, which is composed of good guys (minus Belkar of course) is getting all these witness statements from people that would imply that they are an evil bunch of adventurers... Somebody is going to be very confused...

[tis_tom]

"Curse you treacherous avian!!"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA It's STILL funny!

That was brilliant dude! Well worth the wait :)

[slowly_insane]

They have been accused of "weakening the very fabric of the universe in which we live" (#267), so really, all those witnesses are doing is verifying that the OotS destroyed the mountain. Doesn't the prosecution have to prove that the destruction of the mountain (and therefore the gate) actually DID weaken the fabric of the universe? I can't wait to see the witnesses Rich comes up with to prove that!

[The Giant]

I know that this has already been asked, but I've got to know: why is the woman in the second panel translucent?

That's just Adobe Illustrator being tempermental and randomly setting her robe to Overprint Fill. It's been fixed now.

[Ilover_Juventad]

"Curse you, treacherous avian!"

BAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[Dinod]

Wow...
When fifty years from now, my grandchildren will ask of me to narrate them one of the great moments from OOTS, #271 surely won't be it...

Well, perhaps maybe the raven (that was a good one)

Anyway, In Giant we trust, bring on the next one Chief!

[rosebud]

Given that Shojo's people appear to equate blowing up the gate (whether deliberately or not) with deliberately weakening the fabric of the Universe, that's all they need to prove for the prosecution. I can only see a defense based on that assumption being realistic, otherwise they're completely stuck.Shojo's people are the prosecution, not the judge. So it doesn't matter what they think.

They've read no charges. They've given no evidence on the rune, its creator, on the gate, and on the gate's relation to the fabric of the universe.

I realize that the scene has been condensed, but it's been reduced to the point where it makes no sense for me. So far, there's no formal charges so there's no case.

Sorry to be a grump. :(

[Shatteredtower]

So let's see if I get this straight: V can be held accountable for the destruction of the mountain, but Blackwing, with a 9-10 Intelligence, cannot?

That raven submitted a plea bargain, right?

I don't know, though. Could anyone reasonably have supposed, prior to that moment, that Elan would have found, let alone pressed, a self-destruct button on these premises? Obviously the Order and their legal representative (not to mention the prosecution) think so, but I'm having some difficulty with the idea.

Meanwhile, the whole testimony of how far away the explosion could be seen isn't meaningful testimony. We've already got credible witnesses who can confirm that -- and also that the Order were on site until shortly after it happened.

I guess it works if I consider it as a shorthand way of saying, "The defendants are so screwed," and it does allow for some amusing cameos and humour. I just find these things odd, which admittedly has amusement value of its own.

[TomBoniface]

That's just Adobe Illustrator being tempermental and randomly setting her robe to Overprint Fill. It's been fixed now.
Thanks for letting me know that. I was reading the comments and begining to think my screen was failing.

[Xarkan]

Shojo's people are the prosecution, not the judge. So it doesn't matter what they think.

They've read no charges.
We havent seen them read the charges but wouldnt that be prior to calling witnesses anyhow?


They've given no evidence on the rune, its creator, on the gate, and on the gate's relation to the fabric of the universe.
Maybe they have maybe they havent.. but we havent seen the prosecution rest anyhow.. they have tried here to establish here that the OotS did in fact perform the action they claim lead to the weakening of the fabric of reality.. Apparantly succesfully so

[KhaelTheDragon]

Wow...
When fifty years from now, my grandchildren will ask of me to narrate them one of the great moments from OOTS, #271 surely won't be it...

Well, perhaps maybe the raven (that was a good one)


Agreed. While it had some good bits, to me all it showed was that you have to take the high points with the low points.
It wsa more of an average strip but becasue it was following on from the Big Match, it paled in comparison. Except for that raven...

[team56th]

Ah... familiar raven and Banjo was great.
I want Rich to make Banjo as a REAL god...

[Max_Sinister]

My comments:

- The giant red cockroaches are back!
- "Curse you, treacherous avian!" That's so V...
- Flumphs are back too! (Weren't they eaten by the displacers? OK, all Flumphs look the same, I think...)
- And Banjo as a witness!

And didn't the diviner remind you a bit of the Justitia?

[Single Shot Zombie]

<Cups hands to mouth>

RAILROAD PLOT! ;D

No really, I can just imagine a DM doing this to his/her players; getting them charged for some esoteric crime, and have some oddball "witnesses" give testimony. All in the name of royally screwing the PCs/throwing them in jail etc.

Is Wednesday's strip still going to come out?

[Vampire_Boy]

Is it just me, or is there no case? Plus, Elan testifying with Banjo would be an ideal secondary defense.

Basically, all they've shown is that they touched the self-destruct rune. This says nothing about culpability for weakening the fabric of the universe or destruction of the gate, for that matter. Consequently, I don't understand this strip. :(

The trial is a complete farce, has been from the very start - I've said that many times already. :)

[rosebud]

We havent seen them read the charges but wouldnt that be prior to calling witnesses anyhow?They had testimony from a villager. Like that was useful? ;D I'd much rather hear the charges. The charges mentioned by Miko in #203 were a summary, not the formal charges.


they have tried here to establish here that the OotS did in fact perform the action they claim lead to the weakening of the fabric of reality.. Apparantly succesfully soWithout the charge, I have no idea how relevant that is. And, actually, no they haven't proven it. All they showed is that Elan touched the sel-destruct rune. That says nothing about intent or even culpability.

I realize that some people will take it at word and not question it. I'm just not one of them. The only take away from that approach is that it is a sham charge and this is a sham prosecution. But that's not the sense I get from the strip, thus my complete confusion. Fortunately, the perpetrators of the trial are not the judge or jury.

Also, fundamentally, the law of entropy basically says anything anyone does could be viewed as weaking the fabric of the universe. It's a meaningless charge without more context. Which brings you back to a sham charge.

Note: Unless there's something compelling that comes out, I'm going to just agree with the others who think this is a farce and end with the above claims. Anything beyond that seems senseless.

[killingwithasmile]

but even if they plead for elans insanity and try to prove that they didnt know they would weaken the universes existance you cant ignore such an emotional testimony than that of our favirote jellyfish like random encounter, the Flumpf.

i mean they should be imprisoned or at least sent on a redemption quest for that.

either way ive never seen such an emotional,enthralling orpowerful court case since time to kill

[SPoD]

Since the prosecution didn't rest yet, there's no reason to think they're done. Presumably, there can be no discussion about culpability until there's no doubt that the OOTS actually did the deed. We may only be looking at the first stage of the prosecution's case.

I, for one, really hope that the Giant doesn't detail every little bit of the trial and the legal arguments therein. I mean, it's potentially interesting in broad strokes, but I'd prefer to gloss over the details if it means getting back to the action. I'm betting that he'll only show us the sections that are either important or that he has a joke for, so if he didn't think of a joke for the reading of the charges, then we have to assume they happened off-camera, while Belkar was setting Miko on fire.

[Raptor13x]

Grrr, I really wanted to see what happened with Belkar and Miko! The wait is killing me! haha

Oh well. 271 wasn't my favorite strip by any means, but the raven comment was hilarious. :)

[RebelRogue]

Also, fundamentally, the law of entropy basically says anything anyone does could be viewed as weaking the fabric of the universe.
If I had a dime for each time I'd heard a misinterpretation of the second law of thermodynamics (usualy to "prove" ones personal ideas/beliefs) I would be a rich man! No, increasing entropy does not weaken the fabric of the universe!

[Jarlaxle]

Not one of my favorites, either.
But "Curse you, treacherous avian!!"... Hell, yeah that was hillarious..
Also the fast shift between witness testimonies gave a cinematic sytle to the strip. Felt like watching one of those trial/court movies. Like "A Few Good Men" or "My Cousin Vinny" :)

[Matuse]

- Flumphs are back too! (Weren't they eaten by the displacers? OK, all Flumphs look the same, I think...)

Nobody eats the Flumphs. Flumphs eat YOU!

[Wrecan]

They had testimony from a villager. Like that was useful? ;D I'd much rather hear the charges. The charges mentioned by Miko in #203 were a summary, not the formal charges.

Yeah, the point of the strip is to be entertaining and funny, not to fill in every nitpicky detail. Common sense prevails in between the frames of the comic.

[Eldhrin]

So why is everyone assuming that this is a modern, democracy-style fair trial? This is a fantasy world, where the people bringing the trial derive their authority directly from the Gods, it's not the same as an elected government bringing a prosecution against someone who's violated the social contract.

It's not going to be fair, and it's not going to be like Ally McBeal.

For one thing, it's much funnier.

[U2QueenBee]

Hee hee...I liked this one (my husband's a lawyer, maybe that's it.) It's not supposed to be a shining example of how the legal system and jurisprudence should work in a perfect utopian society, it's just supposed to be funny, and it is (to me anyway). It's like all those cheesy courtroom dramas where the proper legal processes go right out the window all the time, and character witnesses are brought in to say "what an awful man!" or "she'd never do anything like that!"

Where have all the 'It's only a comic strip!' shouters gone now? :P

[Kian]

I liked the bits with Blackwing and Banjo, but on the wole the comic annoyed me. Not the Giant's fault, really, it just reminds me of a railroaded trial one of my first characters was subjected too. Really sucked, and was very evidently railroaded (all the 'evidence' against my char was a letter submited by one 'witness' who allegedly was at the scene, which I wasn't allowed to read nor told who the witness was, and that basicly amounted to 'they did it').

[Ebon_Drake]

Since the prosecution didn't rest yet, there's no reason to think they're done. Presumably, there can be no discussion about culpability until there's no doubt that the OOTS actually did the deed. We may only be looking at the first stage of the prosecution's case.

I, for one, really hope that the Giant doesn't detail every little bit of the trial and the legal arguments therein. I mean, it's potentially interesting in broad strokes, but I'd prefer to gloss over the details if it means getting back to the action. I'm betting that he'll only show us the sections that are either important or that he has a joke for, so if he didn't think of a joke for the reading of the charges, then we have to assume they happened off-camera, while Belkar was setting Miko on fire.
My sentiments exactly. This is a one-page strip every other weekday, if The Giant wanted to go through a full court procedure it would take him forever! I'm happy to skim over a few details in favour of getting back to the Miko and Belkar action.
And "curse you, treacherous avian!" made me laugh out loud.

[Adeptus]

I sure hope Rich doesn't read through these threads.

The obsessive "oh, I didn't like this strip as much as the previous strip" comments can't be good for the one creating the strip.

I hope Rich does his own (hilarious) thing, and doesn't bat an ear to people going "that was great / not so great" and "kill character X, he/she/it annoys me".

If you do read these Rich, then Kudos from me. OotS is the best gaming comic ever!*

*and with Knights of the Dinner Table, and Fuzzy Knights that's saying something.

[Nodles]

Cmon Adeptus, Rich is certainly no Fred Gallagher, he doesnt need a fan horde singing praises to stop him from curling into a ball in the floor ;)

We cant deny we are anxious to see this plot resolution. 270 haves a lot of tension, is understandable most people are annoyed of having to wait even more to see Miko's reaction.

From a plot point of view, something BIG needs to happen to stop the OotS from being executed and to stop Miko/Belkar from killing each other. We are all anxiously waiting :o

[Cirin]

So why is everyone assuming that this is a modern, democracy-style fair trial? This is a fantasy world, where the people bringing the trial derive their authority directly from the Gods, it's not the same as an elected government bringing a prosecution against someone who's violated the social contract.Hmm, the presence of lawyers and paralegals, calling witnesses, the entire trial appearing to be run like a modern Common Law style trial.

Now, we've been down this road countless times before, but to a lot of fans of this strip, we just can't see Shojo having any legitimate authority here. He appears to be a theocratic tyrant who imposes his laws on the rest of the world, based on his belief in his deity. He asserts that his deity gives him the right, but we have nothing other than his word on that. Yeah, they summoned a Celestial, and that just takes a spell any decently high level Cleric (or Wizard) could cast. I keep wondering why Durkon never cast Commune to simply verify any of this, Yeah, Thor's not exactly reliable, but a simple Yes/No answer to "Was the fabric of the universe damaged when the gate at Xylons castle was destroyed" and "Does Lord Shojo have any divine right to detain us for triall?". Instead, he goes on and think Thor wants it on an unconfirmed hunch.

Shojo having any actual right to conduct this trial strains credibility to some of us more than anything else in the strip. I can laugh at Fourth-Wall breaking self-aware humor like the lawyers or rules jokes, but when the setting itself makes absolutely no sense, like one nation somewhere so obscure that it took Bardic Knowledge to know anything about it having a gods-given right to inflict their laws on other states and subjects of those states, even to the point of executing people without any semblance of a trial (remember, Miko pronounced sentence in their first encounter), but even educated people (like Roy and V.) from other lands have never even heard of them, goes pretty far.

[PrometheusRex]

Nobody eats the Flumphs. Flumphs eat YOU!


Then again, if at least one goblin was brought back from the dead to testify, what says the Flumph wasn't as well? (And yes, I see there's no shimmery see-through effect around it, but that's no excuse.)

[Kian]

You only need something big to stop Miko and Belkar from killing each other. I don't think anyone has feared at any time that the order is going to be killed by supposedly Lawful Good types. At most, the railroad plot will lead to them being sent to stop Xykon (acyually, once they tell them of Xikon and they scry and find out he is still alive, their old contract (untill Xykon is defeated) isn't fullfiled, and they're kind of expected to go after him).

[kind of a spoiler, do not read]I can see the OotS being set free, though, and someone going to the storeroom, with the news to stop the fight before either one dies.[don't quote this either]

[TarSheva]

Roy's parting shot was my favorite part - "...treating him as a hostile witness. Like, say, by whacking him repeatedly with a blunt object?"

Thanks Giant, for sending me off to work with a smile on my face. ;D

[Irie]

Wait, why's that raven cawing? It can speak common, lol.

edit: Well, whatever it was that V chose as it's language it can speak, anyway.

Clearly the Raven also has Aphasia.

[Marller]

All the witnesses are pretty funny but i think the best is Elan:

"But Banjo is unwilling to compromise his integrity to help us out. He saw what he saw.".
Let's hope Banjo dosen't get called in as a witness. ;)

I guess Banjo is more like LG and not CG like Elan or otherwise i think he would be more willing to tell a white lie in the Orders favor.

[IRSWalker]

It's not going to be fair, and it's not going to be like Ally McBeal.Although she wouldn't look out of place in a stick figures comic! :D

[Reborn]

AAAAAAH! Please stop changing scene! It's all the more annoying because I know it's a great authorial device and the right thing to do! But I want to see Miko's scorched and kidnified corpse already :P

Cool comic; it looks like Banjo is a LG God after all...

[Max_Sinister]

If I had a dime for each time I'd heard a misinterpretation of the second law of thermodynamics (usualy to "prove" ones personal ideas/beliefs) I would be a rich man! No, increasing entropy does not weaken the fabric of the universe!


Hmm, how must "weakening the fabric of the universe" be interpreted then? Changing the laws of science? Ripping apart matter / fabric of space-time?

I liked the comic very much. And I don't think that the Giant goes too much into detail if he gives every witness one panel. And they're funny, so no loss.

And about Banjo LG: Are Bards allowed to worship lawful deities?

[Hyrael]

Yes. The raven ruled that strip.

Serves you right, V, for taking your class features for granted.

God, I never find a use for that dang familiar.

Yes, its a shame, the poor familiar is so underutilized. But there is a way to get a kick-ass familiar at 5th level.

A. be a 7th level hexblade
B. take Improved Familiar and Practiced Spellcaster (since you caster level is half your hexblade level)

there, you now have a winter wolf as a familiar, as per the rules of complete adventurer, which requires a CL of 7 and a BAB of 7 . there are other cool opitions too, like blink dog, worg, or krenshar, which you can get at earlier levels. each one has a requisite caster level and base attack bonus as well, so a hexblade with Practiced Spellcaster is the best way to go.

LOOOOOVVVVEEEED this strip. wait, i thought banjo was chaotic. he should have no trouble helping the order. but, he is good, too.

[evileeyore]

Once again I must disagree oh Ronin.

]
I say the trial proceeds, we cut back and forth (through next week) as both build in tension towards dramatic conclusions, the trial bulds and could go either way, Miko and Belkar finally met for the showdown, she is beat and bloody, one swing from death against her Raging foe, only one Smite remaining and we hold for the weekend...

Two fates hang in the balance.

I think the OotS will be freed and Miko will drag Belkar's dead body into the Court room and collapse herself...


But really I want belkar dead.

[Kian]

Except clerics (and paladins, I guess) anyone can worship any god they care too.

[Valek]

Hail Banjo....the unwilling witness ::)

[Falkus]

Shojo having any actual right to conduct this trial strains credibility to some of us more than anything else in the strip. I can laugh at Fourth-Wall breaking self-aware humor like the lawyers or rules jokes, but when the setting itself makes absolutely no sense, like one nation somewhere so obscure that it took Bardic Knowledge to know anything about it having a gods-given right to inflict their laws on other states and subjects of those states, even to the point of executing people without any semblance of a trial (remember, Miko pronounced sentence in their first encounter)

Oh come off it. Nations sending adventurers out to maim, slaughter and loot outisde their legal juridstiction is hardly something uncommon in DnD. What makes this case any different?

[Lucca_Majere]

I thought that comic was awesome, personally. :D

Also, I think that the prosecution is making a good case. The self-destruct rune, which would obviously destroy the gate along with the rest of the castle, has already been proved to be pushed by Elan. Therefore, it is proven that they destroyed the gate. And I doubt Lord Shojo feels the need to prove that the destroying of the gate weakened the fabric of the universe, because the OotS never even questioned that, back when Miko first told them the charges.

[Shatteredtower]

Hee hee...I liked this one (my husband's a lawyer, maybe that's it.) It's not supposed to be a shining example of how the legal system and jurisprudence should work in a perfect utopian society, it's just supposed to be funny, and it is (to me anyway).

And part of the amusement value is in examining just how wrong so much of it is. I do want to know if Blackwing is considered exempt from prosecution by virtue of familiar status or if a plea bargain was made in exchange for testimony -- because there's amusement value in that to me.


Where have all the 'It's only a comic strip!' shouters gone now? :P

Still here, wondering about other aspects of the events and their humour, curious about some of the details, and trying to avoid spoilers in the course of discussing the comic. Some of us are also a bit... eager to see what happens next between that halfling guy and that smitey lady, especially after Monday came and went without word of what happened to the strip.

(Not, I wish to make it clear, that we are entitled to know why exactly there was no strip on Monday. However, I'm not going to blame people for getting a bit jittery over the issue.)

Now I'm going to wait, because "Art takes as long as, and whatever, it takes."

That doesn't mean I'm not also building a time machine so I can skip ahead and see this whole thing through to its conclusion during my free time this weekend, after which I'll then come back and post spoilers in a highly subtle fashion in order to see exactly how differently the Giant will approach things this time around. After that, we'll see whether bringing about such changes will weaken the fabric of the universe. (Hey, life mirrors art after all! How 'bout that!)

[Amalthea]

Also, fundamentally, the law of entropy basically says anything anyone does could be viewed as weaking the fabric of the universe. It's a meaningless charge without more context. Which brings you back to a sham charge.
1. There is no 'law of entropy'. Entropy is a physical concept involved in the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, though. I'm going to presume you meant this.
2. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics states the total entropy of any thermodynamically isolated system tends to increase over time, approaching a maximum value.
Entropy is a measure of disorder. What the law means that the total disorder tends to increase over time in a system that has neither input nor output of energy. Since energy cannot be destroyed, it is released into the system as heat/light/etc.

Apart from the fundamentally wrongheaded whimsy of applying scientific theory to prove or disprove a philosophical concept (i.e. weakening the fabric of the universe) and taking into consideration that the gates do not actually tend to destroy themselves (other people destroying them is a somewhat different matter)...

...the destruction of the gates could be compared to an increase in entropy in the philosophical system that says the magic of the gates is holding the fabric of the universe together.

P.S. - rosebud, I saw your apology, but the thread was locked. No worries. :)

[Nodles]

I think there is an exception to the second law of thermodynamics. With all the misinterpretations and poor examples this law is subjected to everyday, Lavoisier (one of the dudes who helped formulate it) is probably rolling on his grave non-stop at incredible speed. We just need to attach an axle to its rotating body and voilá, moto perpetua machine ;D

[Ilaun_Undil]

the 2nd law of thermodynamics os cool and all, but I want to know what are the OOTS suffering from. Appearantly the Doctor knows something that Rich doesn't want us to know. Myself I guess that they suffer from an accute case of Ignoring the 4th wall.

[Nutmegger]

Okay, as long as we're dissecting the trial for all the legal niceties, let's get some basic criminal law concepts out of the way, shall we.

1. Most crimes, unless they involve "strict liability", involve two parts, "mens rea" and "actus reus", which is a fancy way of saying "the intention to act" and "the act itself".

2. While there is little dispute that the button was pushed by Elan (actus reus), it can be legitimately argued that he had no real idea of what he was doing. Certainly, he did not have the "intent" to weaken the fabric of the universe in the way he's been charged. At best, he was "criminally negligent" or reckless, which is different than an intentional act.

3. The rest of the party was unaware of Elan's actions, so unless they are implicated through some sort of conspiracy, they can not be held liable. The "conspiracy" was not to destroy the gate, but to kill Xykon, any damage to the gate was strictly "collateral damage" (from a fighter not clearly in his right mind after his sword was destroyed, for instance). While additional criminal acts that occur as a part of a conspiracy can also be attributed to the conspiracy members, this is only the case if the *original* action being plotted was criminal, which is arguably not the case here.

Anyway... all of this is totally irrelevant to the plot. The point is that this is a comic strip. Don't try and interrupt a good comic with too much legal theorizing.

[Maxymiuk]

The comic made me smile here or there.

As to the prosectuion's case... people, people, people, haven't you seen or read this sort of thing before? ::) The prosecution isn't interested in getting straight to the point right away (or at all, possibly). What they're doing is a classic technique of painting the accused as the "bad guys" so that once it does come the actual charges, the jury will be that much more inclined to see them as guilty. Yes, it's a very dirty tactic, but there's no explicit law forbidding it.

Which is why lawyers are evil as a class feature.

[SimonMoon5]

Nobody eats the Flumphs. Flumphs eat YOU!


For some reason, I read this with a Yakov Smirnoff accent... "In Soviet Russia, Flumphs eat YOU!"

[Arkon]

Shojo having any actual right to conduct this trial strains credibility to some of us more than anything else in the strip. I can laugh at Fourth-Wall breaking self-aware humor like the lawyers or rules jokes, but when the setting itself makes absolutely no sense, like one nation somewhere so obscure that it took Bardic Knowledge to know anything about it having a gods-given right to inflict their laws on other states and subjects of those states, even to the point of executing people without any semblance of a trial (remember, Miko pronounced sentence in their first encounter), but even educated people (like Roy and V.) from other lands have never even heard of them, goes pretty far.

Do you mean strains credibility as in it would never happen in the real world? This is blatently wrong, just look to a certain caribbean island for instance, there people are held without trial by a country whose own stated goal it is to promote justice and freedom.

Or do you mean strains credibility in a fantasy world? If Lord Shojo is one of the orginal party who is protecting the gates why should he not be actively involved? Just because he has a different CR? I like it when in a campaign characters can get into trouble way beyond their CR if they act stupid, which Elan clearly did.

[RebelRogue]

Hmm, how must "weakening the fabric of the universe" be interpreted then?
I wasn't saying I knew! I just pointed out that simply increasing entropy certainly is not!



1. There is no 'law of entropy'. Entropy is a physical concept involved in the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, though. I'm going to presume you meant this.
2. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics states the total entropy of any thermodynamically isolated system tends to increase over time, approaching a maximum value.
Since you started the nit-picking yourself, I'd just like to point out that the second law does not mention the concept of entropy! It just states that "no processes whose only consequence is the complete conversion of heat from a reservoir into work are possible". What you have stated is of course a famous consequence of this.

Ok, I'm pretty OT, I guess. So let me say I loved the Blackwing panel as well ;D

[Amalthea]

I think there is an exception to the second law of thermodynamics. With all the misinterpretations and poor examples this law is subjected to everyday, Lavoisier (one of the dudes who helped formulate it) is probably rolling on his grave non-stop at incredible speed. We just need to attach an axle to its rotating body and voilá, moto perpetua machine ;D
:-) Lavoisier in his grave being influence by the misconceptions of today would not be a closed system, and therefore the 2nd law wouldn't apply. :-)

Back on topic...
As a metaphor to the gates and the OotSverse, I think the 2nd law has merit... to a point. That point being, the more gates are destroyed, the more the fabric of the OotSverse is damaged.
But it's not a perfect metaphor because the gates don't inherently tend towards destruction inherently, instead the destruction is imposed upon the gates from outside.
It's analogous to the eventual degredation and slow lose of energy from molecular bonds versus a catalyst causing the quick release of energy from molecular bonds. The second example in each case is an open system.

[Edit] Rebel, what can I say, I'm a biochemist. I think of thermodynamics in the terms of molecular order and disorder. :-[

As for today's strip, it was funny, I'm still giggling over it when I envision Elan's sanctimonious expression. But it also left me with a vague feeling of disappointment, and rather frustrated to wait another two days for another small episode in what's happening to Miko and Belkar. It's not a criticism... It's just that the story-junkie in me has curled up in a corner sobbing that it has to wait until Friday to maybe find out what happens next. ::)

[Deuce]

Another wonderful strip, loved the Raven and "hostile witness". The whole things reminds me a lot of the final episode of Seinfeld - where their trial for failing to act as "Good Samaritans" devolved into putting them on trial for being mean, bitter, self-absorbed people. Still itchin to know what's going on in that storeroom, and who the new LG members are for that matter - I've a Love/Hate relationship with loose ends :) .

[Darius Midnite]

Delicious strip, if one could say so...

Loved it...
"whacking him repeatedly with a blunt object"
That one knocked me over... ;)

[Svella]

I liked the strip, especially the Banyo part. I'm now waiting for that puppet to step forth and announce that Elan did his bidding.
Afterall, gods are allowed to play with the fabric of the universe, aren't they ?

[WampaX]

Afterall, gods are allowed to play with the fabric of the universe, aren't they ?

It could be limited to what the god is made of/wearing at the time. Based on that conjecture, I'd say Banjo has a pretty good command of all things felt (most likely his primary construction material).

[thatwolfguy]

duece, i totally agree, reminded me a lot of the seinfeld trial too and i was gonna say that and you beat me by like an hour - bummer.

so has anyone tried to decipher what the treacherous avian was saying? what? you guys did it with haley...

glad to see the big red bugs back and the big white jellyfish (yeah, i know, flumph)

spoiler : would it be totally out of the realm of possibility that they bring the linear guild in to testify?

oh yeah, i loved the banjo bit too - i want a banjo puppet!

(edited the color of the spoiler part and added what's below)

just wondering - and i know it would take a lot longer than when the giant detailed the fight between miko and the order, but would anyone be interested to read more of the testimony if the giant posted it in the forum somewhere?

[Eriol]

"Curse you, treacherous avian!"

rofl

[Boomlaor]

Okay, as long as we're dissecting the trial for all the legal niceties, let's get some basic criminal law concepts out of the way, shall we.

1. Most crimes, unless they involve "strict liability", involve two parts, "mens rea" and "actus reus", which is a fancy way of saying "the intention to act" and "the act itself".

2. While there is little dispute that the button was pushed by Elan (actus reus), it can be legitimately argued that he had no real idea of what he was doing. Certainly, he did not have the "intent" to weaken the fabric of the universe in the way he's been charged. At best, he was "criminally negligent" or reckless, which is different than an intentional act. It seems from the way Miko and company have talked about the crime, that it is a strict liability offense. Another justification for charging Elan is the concept of "transfered intent." He intentionally destroyed the castle, a crime against property. That intent can impute liability for resulting outcomes, i.e. the weakening of the fabric of the universe.


3. The rest of the party was unaware of Elan's actions, so unless they are implicated through some sort of conspiracy, they can not be held liable. The "conspiracy" was not to destroy the gate, but to kill Xykon, any damage to the gate was strictly "collateral damage" (from a fighter not clearly in his right mind after his sword was destroyed, for instance). While additional criminal acts that occur as a part of a conspiracy can also be attributed to the conspiracy members, this is only the case if the *original* action being plotted was criminal, which is arguably not the case here.

Accessory after the fact. They don't have to be tried on conspiracy charges, they helped Elan get away, and therefore are accessories after the fact.

Boomlaor

[mastroyo]

Okay, as long as we're dissecting the trial for all the legal niceties, let's get some basic criminal law concepts out of the way, shall we.

1. Most crimes, unless they involve "strict liability", involve two parts, "mens rea" and "actus reus", which is a fancy way of saying "the intention to act" and "the act itself".

2. While there is little dispute that the button was pushed by Elan (actus reus), it can be legitimately argued that he had no real idea of what he was doing. Certainly, he did not have the "intent" to weaken the fabric of the universe in the way he's been charged. At best, he was "criminally negligent" or reckless, which is different than an intentional act.

3. The rest of the party was unaware of Elan's actions, so unless they are implicated through some sort of conspiracy, they can not be held liable. The "conspiracy" was not to destroy the gate, but to kill Xykon, any damage to the gate was strictly "collateral damage" (from a fighter not clearly in his right mind after his sword was destroyed, for instance). While additional criminal acts that occur as a part of a conspiracy can also be attributed to the conspiracy members, this is only the case if the *original* action being plotted was criminal, which is arguably not the case here.



You don't talk like this in front of women, do you?
Boy what a turn-off that has to be.

[Lord Fullbladder, Master of Goblins]

After such a reliable cast of witnesses, they are so screwed.

Really, if we always ripped Orc-Ghosts from eternal torment for such a reason as this, we'd all be guilty! Especially people named Orcbane! *points at random dwarf*

Excellent comic.

[Wiggle]

Fantastic ongoing saga, well worth the admission price.

Only one moan - getting way bored with the preponderance of legal issues, lawyers, courts, summonses ad infinitum/nauseam in OOTS. I don't know if it is just me but it seems to be an American obsession that doesn't translate well to the rest of the world.

Anyone else feeling similar?

(Am British/Australian if it helps)

[Leo_Forestclaw]

It's not going to be fair, and it's not going to be like Ally McBeal.


OMG!! That's it! Celia's business suit is right out of Ally McBeal!

Mr. Giant, sir, Oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please can Lucy Lui have a guest shot in the strip as co-counsel?!?

Brief moment to enjoy mental image of Miko and Lucy in court room cat fight... *sigh* ;D

Great strip, Giant. I'd like go on the record as loving the "trecherous avian" line. It was my LOL moment.

[Brasswatchman]

Hey, doesn't Celia get to cross-examine? She should be kicking that goblin ghost's ass all over the courtroom. "So who were you working for?" "Oh, an evil murderous lich who wants to dominate the whole multiverse." Right...

[Nutmegger]

I see the point of "transferred intent", but of course, the property was not in Shojo's realm/jurisdiction. There is also a question whether destroying a castle occupied by a host of evil forces is a "property crime". It's more on the level of burning down a crack house.

As for whether I speak that way in front of women, I have brought my fiance to hearings, and she finds it cute and sexy when I talk in my "lawyer voice".

[Eriol]

Hey, doesn't Celia get to cross-examine? She should be kicking that goblin ghost's ass all over the courtroom. "So who were you working for?" "Oh, an evil murderous lich who wants to dominate the whole multiverse." Right...
That's what I thought. He'd be the perfect witness for the ORDER! "Oh ya, we're trying to take over everything. That evil lich had us killing 1000s of people, raiding all over, and smoking up (or whatever), and these guys were coming down to stop us." The Chair of Truth works both ways.

Just don't put Thog in there. TMI is possible...

[Reborn]

Once again I must disagree oh Ronin.

(there was a spoiler here)

But really I want belkar dead.

Evileeyore, my nemesis. Belkar will never fall! At last he can reveal his true alignment to the paladins; at last he can have revenge.

[Acolyte_of_Banjo]

Excellent.

[Electric_Monkey]

Mr. Jones seems to look like he's dissapointed with the testimony. Maybe the witnesses aren't answering the questions that really matter to his case so he's falling back on matters of character? Or maybe I'm misinterpreting his serious face.

The old man from the villagecould provide evidence of the damage done to reality if they paid for a cryptic musing.

[U2QueenBee]

And part of the amusement value is in examining just how wrong so much of it is. I do want to know if Blackwing is considered exempt from prosecution by virtue of familiar status or if a plea bargain was made in exchange for testimony -- because there's amusement value in that to me.


Still here, wondering about other aspects of the events and their humour, curious about some of the details, and trying to avoid spoilers in the course of discussing the comic. Some of us are also a bit... eager to see what happens next between that halfling guy and that smitey lady, especially after Monday came and went without word of what happened to the strip.

(Not, I wish to make it clear, that we are entitled to know why exactly there was no strip on Monday. However, I'm not going to blame people for getting a bit jittery over the issue.)

Now I'm going to wait, because "Art takes as long as, and whatever, it takes."

That doesn't mean I'm not also building a time machine so I can skip ahead and see this whole thing through to its conclusion during my free time this weekend, after which I'll then come back and post spoilers in a highly subtle fashion in order to see exactly how differently the Giant will approach things this time around. After that, we'll see whether bringing about such changes will weaken the fabric of the universe. (Hey, life mirrors art after all! How 'bout that!)

Fair enough! Carry on. :) I just get enough of it at home. ;)

[Sylvius]

Just don't put Thog in there. TMI is possible...

Sometimes Thog's armour chafes Thog's man parts.

I loved this strip. The machine-gun style of witness after witness was very effective.

[Eldhrin]

I loved this strip. The machine-gun style of witness after witness was very effective.

Oh yes. I think if they were summoning the Linear Guild though, it might have been done already.

And since the Linear Guild were involved in opening the way to Xykon... wouldn't they be liable as accessories?

thog not like dungeon. dungeon not have ice cream for thog

[Tariskat]

Cirin, you wondered why an educated person such as Roy or V didn't know about this new country- Roy didn't know about Anywhere, Nowhere, or Somewhere, did he? And that's where he was traveling in. So it seems very likely he wouldn't know about southern cities, or their current rulers. I mean, they don't exactly have telephones. Well, except for the dwarf, but his line to Thor doesn't count.

And didn't anyone else find the sobbing flumf amusing? "*sniffle* he stepped on my tentacle!" :)

[Eriol]

And didn't anyone else find the sobbing flumf amusing? "*sniffle* he stepped on my tentacle!" :)
I'm just suprised it's alive. I thought the displacer beasts would have killed (and eaten) it for sure.

[Marller]

Well, there were two of 'em. I guess the other one didn't make it. :'(

[Ilaun_Undil]

The Flumfs were talking to the "shadows" of the displacer beast anyway. for all we know the Displacer beast might have not ever even seen them. they were in a deep conversation at the time.

[Marlene]

Who says the legal system of the Azure City is just like ours? They could be following their form of trial perfecty, and damning the OOTS for all we know!
This strip was hilarious! Thanks Giant! (hope you're feeling ok)

[n11]

One would suppose that, with an empathic link between caster and familiar, Blackwing's testimony would be privileged. :)

Also, did anyone recognize the villiager in panel 6? He's (likely) the old man selling cryptic musings in #122 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=122). It is clear his testimony can be purchased for only 200gp (plus, perhaps, a few more gold as a per diem for meals and such) so on cross his testimony should be questioned.

I didn't recognize the woman in panel 2, but I suspect this was her first appearance in OOTS.

Enjoying the comic as always. Thanks.

[Tariskat]

Plus, there's no saying that the Azure City's rules aren't more akin to "Guilty until proven innocent," even if the other laws that people are bandying about are true in the D&D world.

Edit: And, of course, good strip. It's certainly less explosive than the last one, and still makes me laugh. Thanks, Giant!

[Wrecan]

Okay, here's my speculation as to what relevancy each witness had to offer.

Seer: She would obviously establish that the Order of the Stick activated the self-destruct rune.

Goblin Ghost: He would establish: 1) that the evil guys were vanquished before the self-destruct, meaning OOTS did not destroy the gate to save it from being used by a lich; 2) the evil guys did not set off the rune themselves or manipulate OOTS into doing it for them, 3) if the goblin was one of the one's killed by Belkar after surrendering, evidencing that OOTS members are willing to kill surrendering foes, thus making them appear evil. and 4) confirming that the rune had a cleary warning against activation for any reason (assuming he had seen the rune while working for Xykon).

Fiendish Cockroach: Confirming that OOTS destroyed the gate, that there was no imminent threat warranting such destruction, and that the self-destruct rune was clearly marked.

Nightwing: Just venting about what an awful master Vaarsuvius is. :) Perhaps even revealing V's gender! (Damn my inability to understand raven!)

Flumph: Testifying that OOTS is, at least, indifferent to the pain caused to good-aligned creatures, and also showing that the self-destruct put good-aligned creatures in direct jeopardy (had the flumphs not escaped on their own, they would have died).

Old Man: General background and scale of the desctruction.

Expert: Probably opining about their alignment. I assume he testifies that they suffer form a condition called "chaotic stupid." :)

Anyway, this is not to say I think OOTS is guilty or the testimony is fair. I'm just havign fun speculating as to what the testimony may have been.

Well done, Rich!

[Supagoof]

Beautiful strip. My favorite was the "then he stepped on my tentacle" - absolutely wonderful.

I thought Banjo had diminished in favor of the more powerful Banjuluh (sorry if I spelt that wrong :P)

I agree that the law system in Oots may, and should, differ from anything we interpet as a correct law system. If we were to compare Oots law to say law during midevil times, then V and Durkon would be burned at the stake, mythical creatures would be killed upon showing the ability to talk, and Elan would be locked away somewhere for irritating someone in a town he walked through. So any law made in the gaming plane is up to the DM - or in this case our brilliant Giant, Rich!

[evileeyore]

Okay, here's my speculation as to what relevancy each witness had to offer.
I concur with the learned Wreccan's supposition.

[Ilaun_Undil]

Ha ha Ha I am a pseudo-GeniousI believe Roys Father is one of the Defensive witnesses. I think it is about time for hime to come back into the story anyway.

But then agian what do I know. I just like my Ideas.

[kit]

Wait. Everyone assumes that Elan touching the self-destruct rune destroyed the gate? Wasn't the gate destroyed when Roy threw Xykon into it?

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=115

So all the "it happened after they surrendered" arguments don't hold, and we're back to justification. (destroying Xykon and weakening the universe is better than letting Xykon break the whole universe)


also: why do you think lawyer talk isn't sexy? It's certainly better than "Hurr, you got nice boobs."

[saraswati]

Great comic!

Whether or not the prosecution is doing a good job or a bad one depends on the laws in Azure. As Nutmegger and Boomaloar pointed out there are differing levels of intent needed in different crimes to proove the case (at least in most Western legal systems). If "weaking the fabric of the universe" as a crime is strict intent,( meaning no intent required, if you do it you are guilty,) then the prosecution so far has done a great job, very thorough. If the crime requires a high proof of intent, then the prosecution hasn't shown that yet.

One real problem is that Celia stated her defense would be to show that OOTS is a generally good group, and that they were fighting an evil lich. This defense could be used to show they didn't intend to weaken the universe, or it could be used as a "mercy" defense. If the crime is strict intent, it is not as likely that the planar being of PLG is gonna give a lot of weight to a mercy defense.

You want to know what Raven testified? If Mr. Jones is a good litigator his question will be :

Possible spoiler/speculation:
Prosecution: Mr. Raven has your Master/Mistress even attempted to weaken the fabric of the universe in any way?

Raven: Well, yes. As a matter of fact, all the time.

Assuming the Raven is called as a hostile witness, leading questions are allowed. Also, it would explain why V is so upset. Just thinking about that cracks me up!!!

And... love seeing the flumpf testify! Go Giant!

[humanpylon]

OMG!! That's it! Celia's business suit is right out of Ally McBeal!

Mr. Giant, sir, Oh please oh please oh please oh please oh please can Lucy Lui have a guest shot in the strip as co-counsel?!?

Brief moment to enjoy mental image of Miko and Lucy in court room cat fight... *sigh* ;D



Maybe Lucy Liu is playing the part of Miko.

[spite48]

also: why do you think lawyer talk isn't sexy? It's certainly better than "Hurr, you got nice boobs."

As a married lawyer, I can assure you that my wife does not find lawyer talk sexy.

For example, I once told her that I had obtained an injunction precluding her from touching the television remote control. Her response was "It's going to be a long life"

[Bitterbadger]

Wait. Everyone assumes that Elan touching the self-destruct rune destroyed the gate? Wasn't the gate destroyed when Roy threw Xykon into it?
'

That wasnt the gate, that was Xykon.

In http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=118
we find out right at the end that Elan, quite intentionally, touched the SD rune. Of course, he meant no harm.

[Psiwave]

Just as a thought the self destruct rune was actually just for the castle. it wasn't actually for the gate,
but the main point (and one that has been bugging me since the first strip in which they were mentioned) is WHERE DO THE GATES GO???

[ref]

but even if they plead for elans insanity and try to prove that they didnt know they would weaken the universes existance you cant ignore such an emotional testimony than that of our favirote jellyfish like random encounter, the Flumpf.

i mean they should be imprisoned or at least sent on a redemption quest for that.

That's not the topic on trial in this courtroom.



It's not going to be fair, and it's not going to be like Ally McBeal.

Aww, I was expecting seeing lovely Ling Woo.

[Deuce]

Just as a thought the self destruct rune was actually just for the castle. it wasn't actually for the gate,
but the main point (and one that has been bugging me since the first strip in which they were mentioned) is WHERE DO THE GATES GO???

I don't think where they go is all that important, because <Spoiler>Because I think the Gates aren't sealed to keep people from going into them, but to keep something else out</spoiler>Though I could of course, be totally mad . . .

[Supagoof]

"For example, I once told her that I had obtained an injunction precluding her from touching the television remote control. Her response was "It's going to be a long life" " - posted by Very Bad Necromancer

Hah, where can I get one of those?

Flumpf - winner of Greatest Supporting Character

[DarkLadyOfTheSith]

And then... he stepped on my tentacle!

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=120

;D

[Koury]

I don't know if this has been mentioned before but the diviner from today has been mentioned before, just not seen.

In #120 (link above this post), panel 13.

[Amalthea]

Just as a thought the self destruct rune was actually just for the castle. it wasn't actually for the gate,
but the main point (and one that has been bugging me since the first strip in which they were mentioned) is WHERE DO THE GATES GO???
Boom. Boomboomboom. Boom.

[Beamup]

Am I the only one who's getting the distinct impression that Roy wants to treat Elan as a hostile witness in the last panel? (As usual, I must admit.)

[Lord Fullbladder, Master of Goblins]

Am I the only one who's getting the distinct impression that Roy wants to treat Elan as a hostile witness in the last panel? (As usual, I must admit.)

I wouldn't, if were him. Hitting Elan hard enough would knock sense into him. That would be dangerous. We already a 'sensible' Elan in the form of Nale, so you really want two bloody Nales around?

[Irie]

As a married lawyer, I can assure you that my wife does not find lawyer talk sexy.

For example, I once told her that I had obtained an injunction precluding her from touching the television remote control. Her response was "It's going to be a long life"



I don't know, as the wife of a lawyer, I have to say my husband can subpoena my assets any day ;)

[Wrecan]

Habeas corpus!!!

Translation: Present the body!

[NelinialRiverflow]

Oh my Orli!
A seeress of kell! It has to be.
Rich- did you get that from Mallorean, the seeresses of Kell? Well, I'm happy all the same. :)
I love it... Teedle heedle!

>Alcmariel of the Winterwood<

[Mr._Mark]

been a fan for a few months now. it's a wonderful strip... and i love this avatar!

[Tariskat]

Altered. Thankee kindly Alcmariel, for the orange! :)

[rosebud]

Apart from the fundamentally wrongheaded whimsy of applying scientific theory to prove or disprove a philosophical concept (i.e. weakening the fabric of the universe) and taking into consideration that the gates do not actually tend to destroy themselves (other people destroying them is a somewhat different matter)... ...the destruction of the gates could be compared to an increase in entropy in the philosophical system that says the magic of the gates is holding the fabric of the universe together.I'm confused. First you say it's wrongheaded, then you say that it's comparable. Could you please explain? (By the way, I consider the term "fabric of the universe" to be an arbitrary and unexplained term. Since it is arbitrary, making the comparison to entropy seemed not unreasonable. It's sorta like charging them for breathing.)

As for self-destructing, I've already pointed out that they're poorly constructed. One was destroyed by the collapse of a mere castle. Another was destroyed by a mere fire. If that's what your universe is built upon, it's not going to last very long, especially if they cannot be rebuilt. If they can be rebuilt, just rebuild it, but do it right when you do it.

PS Glad you saw the other. :)

[DarkLadyOfTheSith]

Oh my Orli!
A seeress of kell! It has to be.
Rich- did you get that from Mallorean, the seeresses of Kell?

More likely both The Giant and David Eddings drew their inspiration from the same place. The concept of a true seer binding their eyes to give him or her clearer sight to the visions is fairly old. I'm not positive, but I think it dates back to the Oracle at Delphi. Wasn't the Priestess of the Oracle blindfolded as well?

Course, I immediately thought of Cyradis as well. Kind of hard not to, if one is familiar with that series.

[mihai]

treacherous avian, hahaha... can`t get this grinning off my face...

And then Freud, probably talking about some childhood experiences without ever having spoken to the Order.. oh all of them are so classic, it's like the archetype of a US TV court film (ok, already said on page 2 or so). Heh, somehow I'm glad not living in that kind of law system.

And I liked the cuts between the witnesses, they added to this "lengthy court drama" feeling.. only the last panel seemed a bit dull to me. But still, I find it even better than #270 :)

[Tharr]

If the gate does not fit you must acquit.
Quick put V on the chair ask more gender questions.
Roy on the chair admit he loves Celia.
Lucky Haley cannot speak right.
Could others be called next.

[Davurnium]

What a great one. I love those lawyers. Thanks Rich!

[Boomlaor]

WHERE DO THE GATES GO???
What is this "gate" you guys are all talking about? ;D

Boomlaor

[Lord Fullbladder, Master of Goblins]

Big Red Door, Boomlaor. Tossed Xykon into it. Big boom. died with castle. Talking stupidly. Idiotic Narration fading.

[Amalthea]

I'm confused. First you say it's wrongheaded, then you say that it's comparable. Could you please explain? (By the way, I consider the term "fabric of the universe" to be an arbitrary and unexplained term. Since it is arbitrary, making the comparison to entropy seemed not unreasonable. It's sorta like charging them for breathing.)

Gah, I hadn't finished my coffee when I wrote that, so it's all garbled. I just meant you can use the 2nd law of thermodynamics as a metaphor for what's happening to the OotSverse when gates are destroyed, but that metaphor only goes so far.

[Sanctu]

Great comic, for many reasons mentioned.

I loved the fact that the seer was blindfolded. I was guessing the she was the one who initially divined the gates destruction. Could be a side matter, though.

I don't think the oracle at Delphi was blindfolded. I know they took drugs to acheive an ecstatic state, though. (Four years of Latin. This was the explaination by our teacher as to why the oracle's prophecies are called "ravings" in a few things we translated.) Still, classic piece of smbolism none-the-less.

The flumphs were last talking to the displacer beasts displaced images last we saw them. I was thinking that things would go badly for them from there, but, (1) as someone said, they were only talking to the images, they might not have been noticed, (2) had badness happened, they might have flewn away (they can do that), (3) the displacer beasts might not have been interested in them, either because they are "fellow monsters" or perhaps because flumphs are poisonous (which I believe is the case, they at least have poisonous spines.)

EDIT:
"Ohmygod!!! You have a kitty!!!"
-man in a very expensive suit
:D

[Evik]

That bit at the end about treating Banjo as a hostile witness was golden.
Somehow i dont think he was refering to Banjo ;)
that disgusted look is usually reserved for Elan lol

[rosebud]

2. While there is little dispute that the button was pushed by Elan (actus reus), it can be legitimately argued that he had no real idea of what he was doing.Nice analysiis.

He activated the rune, yes. But you can easily argue he did not destroy the gate: The rune destroyed the castle, which destroyed the gate. Whoever created the rune and did so in a manner without proper safeguards was the one who was criminally negligent. And whoever built the gate was equally negligent. Anything as important as the gate of the universe could not have been up to code if it was destroyed by a mere mountain collapsing on it.


Anyway... all of this is totally irrelevant to the plot. The point is that this is a comic strip. Don't try and interrupt a good comic with too much legal theorizing.On the contrary, that's what makes this strip so wonderful. With how many cartoons do you discuss Coleridge, the Laws of Thermodynamics, jurisprudence, etymology, dialects, psychology and user perception, prepositional calculus, and numerous other such topics?

[flamestrike]

The concept of a true seer binding their eyes to give him or her clearer sight to the visions is fairly old. I'm not positive, but I think it dates back to the Oracle at Delphi. Wasn't the Priestess of the Oracle blindfolded as well?

I think you're thinking of Teiresias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teiresias), the blind seer who shows up in all sorts of Greek tragedies... link goes to wikipedia. Yeah, there's lots of examples of blind seers in literature. I remember the point being belabored in English lit classes, but I don't remember any examples off the top of my head. So much for college edumacations :P

[rosebud]

Yeah, the point of the strip is to be entertaining and funny, not to fill in every nitpicky detail.There's entertaining, funny, informational, and pathos. When it's not any of them, I get confused. Yes, there were some amusing and touching moments (flumph, raven, cockroach, globlin). Yes, there was some storyline. There's even a really cute drawing of Elan. I think the dialog from Roy had a negative impact on me; for me, no dialog and an exasperated expression would have made him amusing rather than irritating. Others liked it. I did like the diviner when she was transparent, though. :)


The obsessive "oh, I didn't like this strip as much as the previous strip" comments can't be good for the one creating the strip.As much as a creator wishes everything to be loved, it's sometimes helpful to take chances and not succeed with everyone. If you only tread the popular line, you're unlikely to do the extraordinary. I'm not saying Rich sucks or that the comic sucks, I'm just saying that this strip didn't vibe with me. It's entirely possible my view will change after seing the entire episode. As an author, it's his right to create it. As a reader, it's my right to have my opinions. As another reader, it's your right to have yours. Fair enough? :)

[Boomlaor]

*watches his joke go flying over TheAlmightyStriker's head*


What is this "gate" you guys are all talking about?

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=96

Boomlaor

[DOOM2099]

caw caw caw

priceless

[NelinialRiverflow]

I realize my mistake, I changed imediatelly. I completelly forgot, since I always wirte in red... Well, I fixed it.
But yes, I thought of Cyradis quick and speedy! Teehee.

>Alcmariel of the Winterwood<

[Tharr]

Hey raven who posts alot on the OOTS boards.
Caw caw caw.
Your very right.

[nagora]

"By those who see with their eyes closed, Youll know me by my black telescope" Blue Oyster Cult 1973.

Divination has been associated with blindfolds and lost eyes (or invisible "third" eyes) since even the Age of Flares and Sideburns.

Yeah, and the ancient Greeks and Egyptians too.
'

[mec]

2. While there is little dispute that the button was pushed by Elan (actus reus), it can be legitimately argued that he had no real idea of what he was doing. Certainly, he did not have the "intent" to weaken the fabric of the universe in the way he's been charged. At best, he was "criminally negligent" or reckless, which is different than an intentional act.

In #118 Elan has the clear intention of destroying the castle. ("Nothing left to do but activate the self-destruction rune and leave.") All through the strip Elan says things that confirm this intention.

Elan also knows about the gate, having tumbled over to it with the intention of touching it. He doesn't know what the gate does, but he knows that it's there and that it's somehow extremely important (#109).

I don't know where the boundaries of criminal negligence are, especially for the crime of gate-destruction.

Now, if the Monster In The Dark had destroyed the Gate, that would be a case of somebody not knowing what they were doing!

[xrestassuredx]

Hah, great strip! Since when does a familiar get forced to testify -- and isn't he at least as culpable as V or any other member of the party?

... I've mentioned it before and there it is again -- Elan is speaking, and someone making the (· ·) face in the same panel...

[Zantetsuken_Kokoro]

Just posting mainly to show off the avatar, but I do have a question:

The blindfolded chick...have we seen her in a prior comic? I think I'm having vague memories of seeing such as her, but I can't put my finger on the context.

[RBloom0566]

Fanboys and fangirls. *L*

271 was a yawner.

[Leo_Forestclaw]

Maybe Lucy Liu is playing the part of Miko.


What? Lucy's been in the strip this entire time and I didn't catch it. Curses, trecherous line art!

Mind you, Miko does have a very Lucy Liu thing going on...

(New, comic strips revisted, somewhat lecherous smirk)

[theKOT]

Fanboys and fangirls. *L*

271 was a yawner.

Agreed. I dunno, it didn't even smile at it. I guess I was hoping for plot advancement but it didn't really explain much.... Oh well, I'm sure friday will be better.

[Gralamin]

other greek seers:
Calchas - preist of apollo, his idea to make a wooden horse.
Tiresias - saw athena bathing, he was blinded by her, then she felt sorry and gave him the ability to see into the future.

[Albion]

He who haventh thy baljo, canst thee.... well, whatever. ;D Kust waitin' til Roy to get really pissed uppod somehow.

[soni]

This strip reminded me of the totally brilliant series finale of the Seinfeld show- the one where they were arrested for violating a 'good samaritan' law, when they made fun of some guy who was in an accident insteaf of helping him...

The prosecution, in an attempt to show what evil, vile people Jerry, George, Kramer, and Elaine were, brought back almost every single one-off character from the 8(?) year run of Seinfeld- the Soup Nazi was there, and a bunch of others, all testifying how the Seinfeld characters 'did them wrong', and should rot in jail...

(that was the best series finale EVER)


The only true eyewitness to the crime was the cockroach... and he sank Elan... LOL

[The Glitter Ninja]

It's a mistake to expect this fantasy judicial system to resemble our own. The plot is going in a distinct direction and I think today's strip perfectly illustrated that. Plus, it was funny, well-written, well-drawn, and it had Banjo and Flumpfs. And the treacherous familiar! What more could you want?

(And I won't mention my prediction because I'm a n00b who doesn't know quite how to do the beige thingie.)

This was a great strip. I hope Rich doesn't read -- or at least doesn't take to heart -- these picky little complaints.

[MooMan1]

Because I don't feel like wading through 11 pages of text, why isn't the farie's text plue and such?

[Caledonian]

Probably because Rich was hurrying to complete the strip after returning from conventions.

It's a small detail, easily fixed later.

(It's also possible that it was a casualty of the fix made to the seer's previous transparency.)

[bluewurm]

it was certainly implied that those squid-like creatures eaten by the displacer beasts, pretty lame to see one still alive.

[theKOT]

it was certainly implied that those squid-like creatures eaten by the displacer beasts, pretty lame to see one still alive.

But Lo, the tale of the flumphs escape is one which shall be sung by the bards till time ends!!!!

[Tharr]

My Flumphs is the bard song topics.

[rosebud]

Gah, I hadn't finished my coffee when I wrote that, so it's all garbled.That scenario would be really funny to see translated to a D&D wizard. :D Kinda like ThorPrayer© (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=7), but for the caster.

[Max_Sinister]

That'd be a good idea:
Celia should try to undermine the trustability of the witnesses!

There are some ways...

- The diviner is probably mad or under the influence of drugs
- The goblin served some undisputable evil master
- The cockroaches are cynics, greedy (#116) and lecherous (#95, last panel)
- Blackwing... hm, I had to understand him first...
- The old man is ripping off adventures with his "cryptic musings 200 gp" scam
- Freud (if he's supposed to be Freud) uses strange disgusting theories, like "your problem is caused because you secretly want to sleep with your parent"
- The Flumph... is an annoying whiner and complains basically about everything


What do you think? That might actually work...

[Lasombra]

The almighty lord Banjo will use his divine influence with the celestial :P

[Amalthea]

That scenario would be really funny to see translated to a D&D wizard. :D Kinda like ThorPrayer© (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=7), but for the caster.
It's something like what happened to V in OtOoPCs, only every morning, and sometimes more destructive. ;)

[Wrecan]

That'd be a good idea: [color=Beige]
Celia should try to undermine the trustability of the witnesses!

The fact that they are sitting in the Chair of Truth, which Shojo indicates is a Wondrous Item, if not an Artifact, would indicate they are compelled to answer truthfully.

So attacking their credibility probably won't help. There's no indication the seer is under the influence of drugs. Attacking a blind person probably won't get you much sympathy in most courts.

[Ilaun_Undil]

well to throw my two coppers in, also cause it hasn't been mentioned yet. I thought the Blindfold represented the "blind" justice. You know like the ones you find outside of the Supreme Court with a blind folded lady and a scale. maybe I'm just trying to read to much into it.

[Max_Sinister]

No, I thought the same thing.

[Filatus]

Well, first time poster, long time reader. Now that sounded cliché. :D

I'm curious what strategy the OOTS will adopt. Crossexamination will not be very useful with that chair standing.

[Alfryd]

New comic is up.
...Excellent. *steeples fingers*
Plea insanity. Banjo, exhibit A. Case closed.

271 was a yawner.
Well, the frankness is refreshing, but I thought it was about average.

"Curse you, treacherous avian!"
...was funny.

This was a great strip. I hope Rich doesn't read -- or at least doesn't take to heart -- these picky little complaints.
Of course. All criticism of your work should be ignored as irrelevant while you build up a cluster of addle-brained sycophants.
Perhaps a focus group...

Consequently, I don't understand this strip.
The whole point is to make the trial seem hopeless and build suspense. Fear not.

Firstly, the chair of truth is an asset. All they need to do is get Elan on the stand, and ask:

"Did you have any intention of weakening the fabric of reality?"
"Did you have any knowledge that destroying the castle and the gate might weaken the fabric of reality?"
"Do you worship this sock-puppet?"
"How many fingers am I holding up?"

In #118 Elan has the clear intention of destroying the castle.
Huh. Well, Elan had it coming.

Prosecution: Mr. Raven has your Master/Mistress even attempted to weaken the fabric of the universe in any way?
"Yes. None of us have ever tampered with the fundamental natural order when bored. That would be wrong."
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=203

That's one of my favourite lines in the strip entire.

Also, fundamentally, the law of entropy basically says anything anyone does could be viewed as weaking the fabric of the universe.
No, only the fabric of objects within the universe. And even so, that doesn't mean you need to unnecesarily accelerate the process.

Hmm, how must "weakening the fabric of the universe" be interpreted then? ...Ripping apart matter / fabric of space-time?
Bingo. Yes, that would probably include fabricating the gates to begin with, but I presume this can be explained later. Also, Durokan had no intention of being destroyed in a magical duel when he constructed the gates.

For one thing, it's much funnier [than Ally McBeal.]
Hmm. Close call.

Although she wouldn't look out of place in a stick figures comic!
Multiple third-degree burns!

Brief moment to enjoy mental image of Miko and Lucy in court room cat fight...
It's like, Stereo, or something.

...one nation... having a gods-given right to inflict their laws on other states...
Shojo arrested the characters purely on the grounds of the 12 Gods' authority, not on the basis of his, seperate and unrelated, secular authority. Pay attention.

Sometimes Thog's armour chafes Thog's man parts.
Ah, Thog, see, now this is why I personally opt for the old-fashioned reliable loincloth. Works wonders for your max dex bonus. And loincloths go with anything- leopard spots, bear pelts, lizard skins, you name it. When was the last time a scantily clad fantasy protagonist burst into a room full of chainmailed henchmen and *didn't* mop the floor with their helmets? Never, that's when. Where would Conan or Sonia be, clad from head to toe in steel plate? Still stuck in Cimmeria. The only reason they weren't completely naked was to slip past the censors. Free and easy my hulking green friend! That's the ticket!


Off-the-wall possibility:

At some point Miko mentions that the remaining crew are currently on trial and will surely be executed for their crimes. It is possible Belkar has the upper hand at this point and is about to deliver a finishing blow. Belkar breaks off and heads for the courtroom, just as the BoPLaG is about to lay waste with cleansing flame.
Alaternatively, Miko and Belkar, locked in mortal combat, tumble into the courtroom just as the BoPLaG is about to do his thang. (Notice that Shojo never actually says what their sentence will be if found guilty.) This may be more consistent with Belkar's personality.
Believing the rest of the order are about to be incinerated, Belkar launches a spring attack at the BoPLaG, distracting him so that the spell targets Belkar instead of the crew. It is also possible that only Elan will be sentenced, which could inflame Belkar in other, albeit illogical, ways.

This means he:
A. Has redeemed himself.
B. Is no longer a threat (as Cleansing flame is apparently a high-level cleric spell that alters the target's alignment),
C. Has no further beef with Miko.

Very probably too convenient, but I can dream, can't I?
EDIT: Upon further review, it seesm that Miko was willing to execute on the basis of crimes against existence, when she thought Roy to be evil. This may have altered since.

[Amalthea]

well to throw my two coppers in, also cause it hasn't been mentioned yet. I thought the Blindfold represented the "blind" justice. You know like the ones you find outside of the Supreme Court with a blind folded lady and a scale. maybe I'm just trying to read to much into it.
I think the irony of a blindfolded 'Seer' is quite enough as is. ::)

[Grey Watcher]

I think the irony of a blindfolded 'Seer' is quite enough as is. ::)

Well, actually, that is a nod to a lot of mythological and fictional precedent. Its often the case that, in order to gain the "second sight" they have to give up their first sight.

[Sanctu]

There's no indication the seer is under the influence of drugs.

I'd check the material compents of her divination spells before making that assesment. This being D&D, though, they are probably all things like "divination sticks" and pearls or crushed rubies thrown into a brazier or something rather than a hint of belladona smeared on the lips, though. Also, given she probably has the blind fold on as part of a class feature or something, I doubt she'd need drugs at this point for her divinations. (She could actually be blind. I'm doubting it, and hoping not, but it could happen.)

LIke I said earlier, the Oracle at Delphi used drugs to achieve a state close to the gods, so historically it could heppen. If this were the case, it would make for an amusing arguement: "Your honor, the diviner was on drugs at the time!" "Of course she was. How do you think diviners divine, child? The testimony wouldn't be permissable it she weren't." As mentioned, I doubt this is the case here.

However you view it, though, her divination was correct. Elan did touch the self-destruct rune.

Side comment:
Mind you, why the thing HAD a self-destruct rune is a significant question, though.

[Amalthea]

Well, actually, that is a nod to a lot of mythological and fictional precedent. Its often the case that, in order to gain the "second sight" they have to give up their first sight.
I know that it's a nod to precedent, but that doesn't make it less ironic.

[Marller]

Bingo. Yes, that would probably include fabricating the gates to begin with, but I presume this can be explained later. Also, Durokan had no intention of being destroyed in a magical duel when he constructed the gates.
It can be certainly argued indefinitely if the original doors (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=196) are fragile or if Durokans work on them caused them to be fragile, since we know almost nothing about them.

[evileeyore]

Firstly, the chair of truth is an asset. All they need to do is get Elan on the stand, and ask:

"Did you have any intention of weakening the fabric of reality?"
"Did you have any knowledge that destroying the castle and the gate might weaken the fabric of reality?"
"Do you worship this sock-puppet?"
"How many fingers am I holding up?"
Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.... wheeze....
ahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahaha



Off-the-wall possibility:

This has merit.

[Tariskat]

This might be a spoiler, but it's more of a thought:
Sorry if this isn't working. But what about Haley's father? Is it possible that the punishment could somehow involve his rescue? Haley has to have a good reason to be allowed to live, if nothing else, for the rescue of her father. Of course, he's a thief, so maybe that won't work. What do you think?
After mulling over the trial and possible outcomes, that popped into my head.

[estradling]

It can be certainly argued indefinitely if the original doors (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=196) are fragile or if Durokans work on them caused them to be fragile, since we know almost nothing about them.

If you read the journal in 193 it sounds like they found fissures and tried sealing them with some kind of magic door way (ie gates).

Here is the quoted text that is not blocked by speech bubbles
" he third fissure. Lirian is already"
"nd on about some way to seal the"
"ch a magical door or something, but"

[moryath]

Hmm, how must "weakening the fabric of the universe" be interpreted then? Changing the laws of science? Ripping apart matter / fabric of space-time?

I liked the comic very much. And I don't think that the Giant goes too much into detail if he gives every witness one panel. And they're funny, so no loss.

And about Banjo LG: Are Bards allowed to worship lawful deities?

Characters can worship any God they choose. As far as I know, the only restriction in this regard is Clerics and Paladins, who have godly restrictions in their class.

[Yahoo_Serious]

Yes!! More Mr. Jones!

(Hmm, does this mean that Lord Shojo is in league with, eh, a consortium of Wizards who come from the Coast, or do they just have Jones and Rodriquez on retainer?)

[Zantetsuken_Kokoro]

Characters can worship any God they choose. As far as I know, the only restriction in this regard is Clerics and Paladins, who have godly restrictions in their class.

To add to your point, good characters can often worship evil gods more out of fear than out of devotion.

[Ilaun_Undil]

Yes!! More Mr. Jones!

(Hmm, does this mean that Lord Shojo is in league with, eh, a consortium of Wizards who come from the Coast, or do they just have Jones and Rodriquez on retainer?)
my guess is that they aren't really connected. Mr. Jones is also Belkar's attorney. (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=228) now he is agianst him.

[Yahoo_Serious]

Well, possibly, but:

1) We don't really know whether he's against Belkar personally, the way Miko is: he's only arguing a case against OotS for destroying the Gate. Belkar is entailed in this as a member of OotS, but neither any of his particular misdeeds nor his alignment are being tried here.

2) Belkar was mainly his client in 228 as part of a class action lawsuit against Miko...

[Wrecan]

Plea insanity. Banjo, exhibit A. Case closed.

Not all madness warrants an insanity defense (if that's even recognized in this court).

In modern jurisdprudence, insanity is only applicable if it prevents you from having intent to commit a crime, or if it overcomes your will.

Even if Elan were to claim "Banjo told me to do it", it wouldn't be a defense unless Banjo forced him to do it.

But since Banjo had nothing to do with it, once Elan gets on the Chair of Truth, he'll have to confess. he did it because he was curious and he thought that's how you end adventures... dramatically!


Firstly, the chair of truth is an asset. All they need to do is get Elan on the stand, and ask:

"Did you have any intention of weakening the fabric of reality?"
"Did you have any knowledge that destroying the castle and the gate might weaken the fabric of reality?"
"Do you worship this sock-puppet?"
"How many fingers am I holding up?"
Huh. Well, Elan had it coming.

I'm not sure idiocy is a defense. Nor, necessarily is ignorance of the law.

In the law there is the "eggshell head theory". That means if you hit someone in the head, and crack their skull open because they have a medical condition that makes their skull exceedingly fragile, you are not immune fromcriminal prosecution for murder just because you had no idea that your punch could crack his skull (and wouldn't have in a normal person).

Elan knew the rune would cause destruction (it said so). He just didn't know how much. He pretty much accepted the risk when he hit the rune.

I'm sure ELan will be exonerated somehow. I'm just not sure how.

By the way, in what book can you find "Cleansing Flame"? Is that a BOED thing?

[evileeyore]

By the way, in what book can you find "Cleansing Flame"? Is that a BOED thing?I think it's in the Book of Making Stuff Up That Sounds About Right. But I don't have a copy so I could be wrong.

[Kaerou]

Characters can worship any God they choose. As far as I know, the only restriction in this regard is Clerics and Paladins, who have godly restrictions in their class.


Nope.. in 3.5 i think Clerics can worship an ideal, oddly enough..

[Tethrys_Gosoo]

This whole trial is moot. There were five gates in total, each defended by a mighty adventurer. Now, Lirian's gate was SOMEHOW destroyed in a forest fire and I don't think Shojo did anything against Redcloak then. So meh.

[Marller]

If you read the journal in 193 it sounds like they found fissures and tried sealing them with some kind of magic door way (ie gates).

Here is the quoted text that is not blocked by speech bubbles
" he third fissure. Lirian is already"
"nd on about some way to seal the"
"ch a magical door or something, but"



Yes, that's what i ment, the fissure, not the door (gate), sorry. :p
That the fissures could be unstable by nature.

Another idea: could the gate be fragile to prevent brute force entry?

[Ilaun_Undil]

The Brute force Idea is put back, because appearantly anyone not pure hearted enough touching it burns to a crisp. even Xykon explodes agianst it.

All I can say is that the power behind the gates must be very unstable which would allow such destuction to come. (think of ballancing a washing machine on a pin.) if such is true, it shouldn't be weakening the Universe at all. Unless falls in the fabric of the universe.

[rosebud]

In the law there is the "eggshell head theory". That means if you hit someone in the head, and crack their skull open because they have a medical condition that makes their skull exceedingly fragile, you are not immune fromcriminal prosecution for murder just because you had no idea that your punch could crack his skull (and wouldn't have in a normal person).Intent is part of the requirements for murder. Yes, you can be charged with manslaughter, but murder 1 requires the premeditated intent to kill. Absent that intent, it's a lesser charge. The issue is often one of civil liability in that regard.

Also, there's something called "gross negligence". If someone puts a dynamite trigger that will blow up the block lying on the sidewalk with a "don't touch" sign on it and a small child presses it, the child is not responsbile for blowing up the block.

Which gets us back to the whole premise that the gates are just a McGuffin.

[Ravenlord]

The child only wouldn't be in trouble because under a certain age you are not responsible for your actions. If a grown up man presses the button, he will get charged.

[Gralamin]

laws are stupid and confusing, why don't we go back to good old anarchy and choas?

[Ilaun_Undil]

I see nothing wrong with a Choatic Good system of Government. However I would be afraid of a CE Gov with Belkar as head. scary. would a LG revolt agianst a CG Government?

[Wrecan]

Also, there's something called "gross negligence".

Yes, thank for the clarification. I should have said "criminal liability" and not "murder".

Bottom line is that Elan intentionally blew up the castle, with the gate inside. He knew and intended to blow up the gate. That is certainly sufficient to open him up to some sort of criminal sanction.

The fact that he didn't know destroying the gate would lead to the weakening of reality should only lessen the severity of the crime.

Of course, this is all speculation because we have no idea what the legal system.

[Leveller]

Listen guys I don't think it matters Elan didnt blow up the gate on purpose. The thing is HE DID IT. END OF STORY.

[Sylvius]

Intent is part of the requirements for murder. Yes, you can be charged with manslaughter, but murder 1 requires the premeditated intent to kill.

Yes, but intent follows the bullet. If you intended to threaten someone with a gun, and intended to shoot at them as a coercive tactic, and that bullet flew out the window and killed someone, that's Murder 1.

If you intentionally burn down a house, unaware of any inhabitants, and the fire kills those inside, that's Murder 1. You don't have to intend to kill. You have to intend to commit a crime.

Morally, there's arguably some difference between foresight and intent. The law doesn't see it that way.

[humanpylon]

ummm ok I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure first degree murder has to involve the premeditated intent to kill the person who ends up dead. burning down a building without knowing there are people inside would qualify as manslaughter, or even criminal negligance causing death. intending to kill person A and accidentaly killing person B would be second degree or maybe manslaughter. Mind you this is according to canadian law, so maybe different

EDIT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder#Canada here's the link as it applies to Canada

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder and here's the link for laws in general, if anyone actually cares.

[Wrecan]

ummm ok I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure first degree murder has to involve the premeditated intent to kill the person who ends up dead.

Not in most countries, no. If you shoot someone with intent to kill and someone else is shot dead by your bullet, that's murder. The doctrine is called transferred intent (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/transferred+intent).

Also, in modern jurisdictions, it's a murder if you intend to commit certain types of felony (robbery, arson, kidnapping) and someone ends up dead, even if you never intended someone to die. It's called felony murder (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/felony+murder) (fans of Law & Order should be very familiar with this rule, since Jack McCoy employs it all the time).

The classic example is a kid who robs a liquor store with a water pistol that looks like a real gun and the store owner has a fatal heart attack when he sees the gun. That kid just committed felony murder.

Which is has zero to do with anything in the comic. I just think felony murder is interesting.

[Zantetsuken_Kokoro]

Listen guys I don't think it matters Elan didnt blow up the gate on purpose. The thing is HE DID IT. END OF STORY.

Well it should matter.

Otherwise none of us are safe if we do something stupid. Only malice should merit punishment.

[Leo_Forestclaw]

By the way, in what book can you find "Cleansing Flame"? Is that a BOED thing?

I'm looking through the BOED and as far as I can tell, there isn't a listing for "Cleansing Flame." The closest thing I can find is a 9th-Level Stanctified Spell called, "Sanctify the Wicked." StW traps an evil creature in a diamond for one year, then releases it as a santified creature. The example used is a Red Dragon made LG.

I'm not sure the OotS stick universe could handle a sanctified Belkar, heck they can barely handle a CE one...

[Max_Sinister]

would a LG revolt agianst a CG Government?

How would a CG government look like? I thought chaotics would prefer if there's no government at all.

[Adeptus]

Guys... Elan did blow up a castle on purpose, but

a) He couldn't know that it would destroy the gate

b) He couldn't have known that the destruction of the gate (alledgedly) weaken's the fabric of the universe (alledgedly a bad thing, though nobody has said in what way).

All Elan knew about the gate is that an evil lich wanted to open it. Burying it under a mountain of rubble sounds quite good to me in that cituation.

[Rizzo]

Sorry for interrupting, but shouldn't we be on #272 by now? What happened?

[evileeyore]

How would a CG government look like? I thought chaotics would prefer if there's no government at all.
Not necesarily. Chaotics prefer a lot of personal autonomy. A Chaotic Good society would likely exibit strong Democratic Ideals with either very laissez faire or communistic ideals. Laws would likely be only for the "Common Good" and for the banding together for common survival. The most "typical" fantasy elements are the Patriarchal/Matriarchal Elven Family and the freedom loving Halfling /Hobbit Mayorial towns.

Chaotic Evil tends towards "Might makes Right" and dictatorship based on Tyrrany and Force.

[Mateo]

Just to clear some stuff up...

There is a difference between Criminal and Civil Liability. Can the OOTS be sued...hell ya. (assuming they have availed themselves to the jurisdiction and have been properly served, cause in fact...etc...very complicated)

Would they be charged with a crime? That depends on the jurisdiction. Criminal statutes are different from State to State. Homicide (as an example) is broken down into several categories. As noted above, Felony Murder is one of those. In Washington State, Felony Murder is the same punishment as Murder II...and less that Murder I. Murder one is either aggravated murder (killed a cop, or did so in an extreme way) or premeditated planned murder (a moment in time is enough).

Did Elan intend to destroy the gate? Maybe. Did he? Yes. To compare this with murder statutes in Washington (the only one I know for sure) Elan would most likely not be charged with "murder" but most likely Manslaughter. His intent was not "to kill" but instead to do the act that recklessly caused "the death". The rune clearly destroys the castle...not the gate holding the fabric of the universe together. (This is arguable, but knowing all the evidence it is clear that Elan was not intending to weaken the universe).

The rest of the order would most likely not be accomplices here. They would most likely be witnesses to Elan's trial. The only way they would be accomplices is if the activity they were involved in leading up to the gate destruction was illegal. Modern statute doesn't cover adventurers defeating evil Liches.

Ultimately it is a very complicated issue based on too many assumptions and statues that don't really exist. This is more of an inquisition anyway giving it religious undertones and cited authority. They can do what they want.

I am a practicing Prosecuting Attorney in Washington. That is right Giant...your civil servants also read your comic. Big fan, keep writing.

[Mateo]

Well it should matter.

Otherwise none of us are safe if we do something stupid. Only malice should merit punishment.


Yes and no. Not just malice should be punished. Reckless behavior resulting in the harming of another should also be punished. If I drive my car like a maniac intending not to collide with anyone but still kill someone, I should be held criminally liable.

[Leo_Forestclaw]

How would a CG government look like? I thought chaotics would prefer if there's no government at all.

I think you're confusing anarchy with chaos. Chaos is a state where chance is supreme, whereas anarchy is a state of lawlessness or political disorder.

[Leo_Forestclaw]

I am a practicing Prosecuting Attorney in Washington. That is right Giant...your civil servants also read your comic. Big fan, keep writing.


Am I allowed to feel a touch uneasy about the fact that a Procecuting Attorney chose a peg-legged pirate as his avatar or simply smile and enjoy the irony?

[Zantetsuken_Kokoro]

Yes and no. Not just malice should be punished. Reckless behavior resulting in the harming of another should also be punished. If I drive my car like a maniac intending not to collide with anyone but still kill someone, I should be held criminally liable.

Perhaps, but it's a very fine line.

Should you be locked up with violent criminals just because you thoughtlessly looked down at your radio dial to turn it and then hit someone? That could be considered "reckless behavior."

[Deuce]

Perhaps, but it's a very fine line.

Should you be locked up with violent criminals just because you thoughtlessly looked down at your radio dial to turn it and then hit someone? That could be considered "reckless behavior."

Unless you mowed down something like a dozen children - and laughed about it - You'd most likely end up with a long Probation and at most a small amount of jail time (at least in the US). Short jail terms are usually served in County Jails, meaning you'd be locked up with people in for theft, drunk driving, maybe some simple assaults and drug posession. If you were drunk at the time you might get harsher time in a tougher place.

As to how the OotS might be punished . . .
<spoiler>All this assumes that the trial will even reach it's end, I'm calling 20-1 odds against that</spoiler>

[Mateo]

Am I allowed to feel a touch uneasy about the fact that a Procecuting Attorney chose a peg-legged pirate as his avatar or simply smile and enjoy the irony?

It was either that or the ninja...

[Mateo]

Perhaps, but it's a very fine line.

Should you be locked up with violent criminals just because you thoughtlessly looked down at your radio dial to turn it and then hit someone? That could be considered "reckless behavior."

In a sense...I agree. Looking down at your radio dial would probably not rise to the level of recklessness. Juries are actually pretty good about this stuff. But driving down the road at twice the speed limit, in the rain, going around blind corners and into the oncoming lane would certainly be reckless...but contain no malace.

[Sylvius]

Sorry for interrupting, but shouldn't we be on #272 by now? What happened?

Rich was at a convention last weekend, so we didn't really get a comic on Monday.

But the Wednesday comic was early.

[Mateo]

Unless you mowed down something like a dozen children - and laughed about it - You'd most likely end up with a long Probation and at most a small amount of jail time (at least in the US). Short jail terms are usually served in County Jails, meaning you'd be locked up with people in for theft, drunk driving, maybe some simple assaults and drug posession. If you were drunk at the time you might get harsher time in a tougher place.

As to how the OotS might be punished . . .
<spoiler>All this assumes that the trial will even reach it's end, I'm calling 20-1 odds against that</spoiler>

Wow...too much posting from me today...

and yes...you are sadly correct. Most crimes receive very little penalty.

btw. one year or under is in County jail. More time than that is in prison.

As far as being drunk at the time...that would be vehicular homicide. That is a very serious offense punished by lots of time in prison.

[rosebud]

they are compelled to answer truthfully.Durkon answered truthfully to Miko. What was your point, exactly? ;)


Bottom line is that Elan intentionally blew up the castle, with the gate inside. He knew and intended to blow up the gate.We already know that intelligence has been his dump stat since childhood (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=50). Capacity applies to intent.


Plea insanity.Celia's too nice to do that to Elan.


Durokan had no intention of being destroyed in a magical duel when he constructed the gates.No one expects the Spanish Inquisition! (http://people.csail.mit.edu/paulfitz/spanish/script.html)


I'm curious what strategy the OOTS will adopt.That's been partly answered. We already know Belkar's approach. The rest will come in time.

[Leo_Forestclaw]

It was either that or the ninja...


See, that didn't help...
;)

[evileeyore]

Rich was at a convention last weekend, so we didn't really get a comic on Monday.

But the Wednesday comic was early.
Where do you get that idea?

As I see it, Monday was just tragically late... and likely so will be Wednesday... and Friday... but hopefully he gets back on track by next Monday.

[jim_pinto]

I think you're confusing anarchy with chaos. Chaos is a state where chance is supreme, whereas anarchy is a state of lawlessness or political disorder.

actually, this is a misnomer

chaos is random

anarchy is a state of order without leaders.

people always get this wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism

even dictionary.com has it wrong

[Caledonian]

It's obvious to any sane, reasonably-intelligent person that driving recklessly threatens others' lives.

It wasn't at all obvious that destroying the gate threatened anyone's lives but the OOTS's. Elan's action was a stupid one, and it was recklessly performed, but Elan didn't recklessly endanger the world.

Quite frankly, the Sapphire Guard are the ones that did that, by leaving the Dungeon of Dorukan in the hands of an evil lich for more than six months.

[Wrecan]

the Sapphire Guard are the ones that did that, by leaving the Dungeon of Dorukan in the hands of an evil lich for more than six months.

They probably didn't know. That was Dorukan's dungeon and as far as the Sapphire Guard knew, Dorukan was a live and well.

[Wrecan]

Only malice should merit punishment.

We have the crimes of manslaughter, negligent homicide and reckless endangerment precisely to punish people who do stupid things that get people hurt or killed.

You don't go to prison as long as you would for intentional murder, but you usually go to prison.

[Caledonian]

Hadn't they remained in contact with the powerful wizard guarding one of the magical gates that are (somehow) essential to the fabric of reality?

Didn't their diviners notice that Dorukan had died, or that someone was trying to open the gate?

Didn't they send someone to check things out? It seems the most competent adventurers to enter the dungeon in the six months since Dorukan died were the Order of the Stick. Clearly, the Sapphire Guard is to blame for the lack of divinely-powered warrior bands.

[Tariskat]

I suppose they assumed that Dorukan, being an old, very powerful wizard, could handle himself. After all, I thought wizards were notorious for being loners. Especially when they live alone in a huge castle.

[Ilaun_Undil]

I think an old/venerable wizard should always have an extra eye on him. That would be scary, especially if he had Al heimers or something like that. seriously something would be rather likely to happen at that age, it probably get a little boring.

[Leveller]

Maybe spoiler.

Now when I think about it it's very strange that they could sense the redmountain gate beeing destroyed pretty much instantly, but didnt know that Durokan died, Xykon moved in, or that one gate was already destroyed! Maybe they werent powerful enough to battle Xykon themselves and let the order do the dirty work?

[Tariskat]

Maybe spoiler.

Now when I think about it it's very strange that they could sense the redmountain gate beeing destroyed pretty much instantly, but didnt know that Durokan died, Xykon moved in, or that one gate was already destroyed! Maybe they werent powerful enough to battle Xykon themselves and let the order do the dirty work?

They probably did know the other gate was destroyed. The Order didn't destroy that one, so they weren't called in. I agree that they might be letting the Order do the dirty work, though. But then you'd think that they'd be thanking them for killing Xykon. Even if he isn't really dead.

[Ilaun_Undil]

honestly I think there is a big plot hole when you involve the Gates. hHopefully there are going to be a couple good strips coming up that just explains everything nicely. probably not though. It is a story and therefore doesn't need a true explanation for anything. That is how most stories of these kind work out. Also as the OOTS do badly Belkar does good. This might be interresting turn?

[Tawkis]

At the very real risk of being late, isn't that old dude the Cryptic musings for 100gp guy?

[the_belkarnator]

other greek seers:
Calchas - preist of apollo, his idea to make a wooden horse.


Didn't Odyssus have the idea for the horse?
Also wasn't apollo supposed to be on the side of the trojans (supposedly apollo sent a plague i think)

[the_belkarnator]

[quote author=Alfryd link=board=comics;num=1138171733;start=165#176 date=01/26/06 at 09:56:35]
B. Is no longer a threat (as Cleansing flame is apparently a high-level cleric spell that alters the target's alignment),

actully it was someones guess that cleansing flame is a high lvl cleric spell. it could be a fireball spell

sorry for double post and misspellings

[rosebud]

At the very real risk of being late, isn't that old dude the Cryptic musings for 100gp guy?Ayup. You must have him confused with the 200 GP (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=122) old man. :D

By the way, yes, it was mentioned in this thread on page 6 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?action=display;board=comics;num=1138171733 ;start=90#101) and page 8 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?action=display;board=comics;num=1138171733 ;start=105#110).

[ARMOURERERIC]

;)

Come on Mr. Giant can we have a Perry Mason reference for us oldsters? I kept hearing the theme music every time I read strip 271.

And now back to Perry Mason and the Case of the Problematic Porthole

Eric

[ARMOURERERIC]

;D

Followed next week by the Case of the Shish-Ka-Bobbed Sumurai, and the Case of the Haphazardous Hafling

[Tharr]

Great now folks we need a Matlock reference.

[Leo_Forestclaw]

;)

Come on Mr. Giant can we have a Perry Mason reference for us oldsters? I kept hearing the theme music every time I read strip 271.

And now back to Perry Mason and the Case of the Problematic Porthole



Quick! Someone more schooled in html than I tell me how to embed mp3 files on the message board!! ;D

[Coldwind]

celia's speech balloon's color is not blue in this episode. what happened, she lost her elemental powers during the trial?

[Alfryd]

By the way, in what book can you find "Cleansing Flame"? Is that a BOED thing?
I couldn't say where the spell originates, but courtesy of Athenatos:

Cleansing Flame is a high-level divine spell that purges targets of evil and compels them to act in a good fashion.
Please direct your queries accordingly. :)

Even if Elan were to claim "Banjo told me to do it", it wouldn't be a defense unless Banjo forced him to do it.
No no, the mere fact he believes in banjo may be taken as evidence of mental incompetence, inability to judge things rationally, deduce cause & effect, etc.

I see nothing wrong with a Choatic Good system of Government.
You can't have Chaotic Government. It's a contradiction in terms. Government consists of laws.
You can have minimalist government, you can have economical government, you can have non-interventionist government, but you cannot have Chaotic Government. At all. You can just have less of it.

If you shoot someone with intent to kill and someone else is shot dead by your bullet, that's murder. The doctrine is called transferred intent.
For my money, I'd give it the same legal status as attempted murder.
"Attempted murder! Do they award the Nobel Prize for 'attempted chemistry'?"- Sideshow Bob

The classic example is a kid who robs a liquor store with a water pistol that looks like a real gun and the store owner has a fatal heart attack when he sees the gun. That kid just committed felony murder.
That is insane.

Reckless behavior resulting in the harming of another should also be punished.
Yes, but in order to diminish the likelihood of repeat offences, not neccesarily as a moral judgement. That's the difference between ethics and morals.

Chaos is a state where chance is supreme, whereas anarchy is a state of lawlessness or political disorder.
Which is a state where chance is supreme, unless there is some underlying moderating principle that maintains the status quo- e.g, a natural law.

...anarchy is a state of order without leaders.
Anarchism is the political belief that anarchy is sustainable, which has thus far never proven the case. The definition of anarchy that people understand is, essentially, political chaos.

But the Wednesday comic was early.
Perhaps the friday comic will be as punctual.

[barongas]

Damn you Rich! I need my oots-fix before work! If I drive off the road or start chucking knives at customers you know what I will say in court!

Go Belkar!

[Ilaun_Undil]

well I'm hoping the new one is up soon, but nows not the time to start complaining yet. All I can say is I can't wait for the defense. or cross examination. or other fancy quasi-latin court terms.

[Deuce]

well I'm hoping the new one is up soon, but nows not the time to start complaining yet. All I can say is I can't wait for the defense. or cross examination. or other fancy quasi-latin court terms.

What is this "Latin" that you speak of? Is it related to Common? ;)

[Wrecan]

I couldn't say where the spell originates, but courtesy of Athenatos

I think it's a Warcraft spell or from some other non-WotC book. So I don't think we'll be seeing it in OOTS.


No no, the mere fact he believes in banjo may be taken as evidence of mental incompetence, inability to judge things rationally, deduce cause & effect, etc.

None of those are necessary to hold someone responsible for a criminal act. People are allowed to believe stupid things and be held responsible for a crime.


[felony murder] is insane.

The point is that if you commit a serious felony, there is always a risk of death, and the only way to minimize your responsibility is to not commit the crime.

There's no such thing as a 100% safe kidnapping, arson or burglary.


Perhaps the friday comic will be as punctual.

Apparently not. :(

[moryath]

The fact that they are sitting in the Chair of Truth, which Shojo indicates is a Wondrous Item, if not an Artifact, would indicate they are compelled to answer truthfully.


No, it's probably a simple Chair with a Zone of Truth spell cast around it. You get a will save to that, you know.

[moryath]

celia's speech balloon's color is not blue in this episode. what happened, she lost her elemental powers during the trial?
She's now a ParaElemental, she's likely trying to mask her accent.

Just a thought...