Bard

[ZeroNumerous]

I'm making one, specifically a Savage summoner. Before anyone cries "Be a druid/wizard/cleric instead", I want you to hear me out.

Stats(Rolled):
STR 12
DEX 11
CON 13
INT 12
WIS 14
CHA 16

Initial Build:
Savage Bard 5/Lyric Thaumaturge 10/Sublime Chord 5.

Focuses on Summoning(via Summon Nature's Ally [X] garnered from Savage Bard) and buffing via extra spells of Thaumaturge and bardic songs of Sublime Chord.

Secondary Build:
Savage Bard 5/Sublime Chord 5/Virtuoso 10.

Greater Arcane Casting, still a Summoning Focus. Loses out on bonus spells from Thaumaturge but garners 9th level Arcane spells to make up for it.

Tertiary Build:
Savage Bard 5/Sublime Chord 1/Lyric Thaumaturge 10/Virtuoso 4

9th level spells, bonus spell slots, bonus spells known, super arcane bard and better music. Potentially capable of outshadowing the evocation Sorcerer in the party.

Feats: I have no idea what I should pick. I've never done a bard before.

My ultimate problem is creating a summoner who will work but won't overshadow the other arcane caster(blaster sorcerer) while still being able to heal adequately. I need solutions, and thus I turn to the Gaming forum of GitP. Can you help me?

[AstralFire]

I love the bard! My favorite characters have been Bards, Bard Variants, and Wilders. But being unfamiliar with Lyric Thaumaturge and not a big fan of Virtuoso, I don't quite understand why you're using the Bard for this if you're just heading into Sublime Chord? Some enlightenment, please? Is there some RP or mechanical advantage specifically you are trying to reach that I'm not quite getting?

[cupkeyk]

Lyric Thaumaturge specifically states that it progresses bard spellcasting. It cannot be used to progress Sublime Chord, which has its own spell casting. I am not sure how you will arrange your levels but you cannot enter Sublime chord until level 11, you cannot enter Lyric thaumaturge until level 7... Savage Bard 5/Lyric Thaumaturge 10/Sublime Chord 5 is impossible, the other ones are shady unless virtuoso is your sixth level followed by Lyric thaumaturge or Sublime chord... But then Virtuoso is more of a bard song PR than a spellcasting PRC.

[Temp]

My Vote's for Bard 5/Lyric Thaumaturge 3/Malconvoker (CS) 2/Sublime Chord 1/Malconvoker 3/??? 6

Lyric Thaumaturge isn't actually going to do much for you, but it doesn't hurt more than a one-feat investment, so keep it if you want.

The last six levels can really be anything that advances your Sublime Chord spellcasting... it all works.

And like has been said, the 13 Know(Arcane) and Listen ranks in the SC requirements mean it can't be used before level 11.

Feats?
1-Melodic Casting (CM)
3-Spell Focus--Conjuration
6-Augment Summoning
9-Rapid Metamagic (CM)
12-Summon Elemental (CM)
15-Quicken Spell
18-???

Feats in that last slot:
---Rashemi Elemental Summoning from Unapproachable East is great.
---Fiendish Summoning Specialist from the Planar Handbook gives you some new options... Might be worth it.
---Rapid Spell (CM?) lets you summon as a Standard action for a +1 spell level boost.

This (without Savage Bard) will likely be your best bet for a Bard Summoner.

If you are attached to the "Savage" variant, you need to scrounge a feat and a 13 Wisdom for Arcane Disciple (Summoner Domain). Do this by either being a Human or dropping LT.

[Jack Zander]

No matter how bad you build your bard, he'll always overshadow the sorcerer blaster.

[BardicDuelist]

I'm making one, specifically a Savage summoner. Before anyone cries "Be a druid/wizard/cleric instead", I want you to hear me out.

Stats(Rolled):
STR 12
DEX 11
CON 13
INT 12
WIS 14
CHA 16

Initial Build:
Savage Bard 5/Lyric Thaumaturge 10/Sublime Chord 5.

Focuses on Summoning(via Summon Nature's Ally [X] garnered from Savage Bard) and buffing via extra spells of Thaumaturge and bardic songs of Sublime Chord.

Secondary Build:
Savage Bard 5/Sublime Chord 5/Virtuoso 10.

Greater Arcane Casting, still a Summoning Focus. Loses out on bonus spells from Thaumaturge but garners 9th level Arcane spells to make up for it.

Tertiary Build:
Savage Bard 5/Sublime Chord 1/Lyric Thaumaturge 10/Virtuoso 4

9th level spells, bonus spell slots, bonus spells known, super arcane bard and better music. Potentially capable of outshadowing the evocation Sorcerer in the party.

Feats: I have no idea what I should pick. I've never done a bard before.

My ultimate problem is creating a summoner who will work but won't overshadow the other arcane caster(blaster sorcerer) while still being able to heal adequately. I need solutions, and thus I turn to the Gaming forum of GitP. Can you help me?

The third build doesn't work. Lyric Thaumaturge only advances BARD casting (as shown on the table and stated in the text).

Most of Virtuoso's abilities are a bit lackluster (excepting that one at 9th which lets you dominate with DC equal your perform check). Only losing one caster level isn't bad though.

For just the classes of your build, I would recomend this progression:
Bard (savage or otherwise) for 5 levels
Lyric Thaumaturge for 4
Virtuoso 1
Sublime Chord 1
Round it out with Virtuoso 9.

This gives you the full casting of a Sublime Chord (just don't pick blaster spells, and your friend will still have his niche), Bonus low level spells from LT(which you lack if you take the Sublime Chord route), All of the Virtuoso music, and you only lose one bard caster level (as opposed to one SC caster level, which is worse).

For feats:

Melodic Casting is required for LT, so you'll need that (it helps anyway, so it doesn't matter).

Song of Heart from ECS increases your inspiring bonuses (which will help), as will Words of Creation from BoED (although this is considered broken and could have some horrible RP things tagged on).

Extra Music from CAv is nice if you plan to burn through your uses buffing the things you summon, or with the feats below.

Champions of Ruin has a great feat called Doomspeak. Target makes a will save (10+character level+cha modifier) or takes -10 to attack rolls, skill checks, saves, and ability checks for one round. Uses one daily use of bardic music. The best part is it isn't mind affecting for some reason.

Metamagic Song from Races of Stone gives somthing similar to Divine Metacheese, only not quite as good since you actually have somthing to spend your music on. Of course, if you take this, you will want some metamagic feats.

If you want to do some fighitng, Snowflake Wardance from Frostburn is great for a melee bard.

Arcane Thesis is great for any arcane caster (especially combined with Metamagic Song) as it lets you reduce metamagic costs.

[Temp]

Arcane Thesis is great for any arcane caster (especially combined with Metamagic Song) as it lets you reduce metamagic costs.For a Bard summoner? Probably not so much. It's only worthwhile if he grabs it at level 18; otherwise its value will quickly fade. He also needs Rapid Metamagic to prevent the casting-time extension.


Metamagic Song from Races of Stone gives somthing similar to Divine Metacheese, only not quite as good since you actually have somthing to spend your music on. Of course, if you take this, you will want some metamagic feats.This loses the one thing DMM gains: High level metamagic. MS is limited by the highest level spell available, making it far less worthwhile.

If Unapproachable East is available, the Rashemi Elemental Summoning feat is top notch. It's a gimme in most Summoner builds.

[BardicDuelist]

Temp: I just slung down the bard feats and that. I've never played a summoner, so I stuck to what I know.

Yeah, I know that Metamagic Song is not nearly as good as Divine Metamagic, but it is still a good feat (and rather useful when combined with Arcane Thesis), although this route is better for a Caster Bard than a Summoner Bard, and works best with the Eberron rule that you can trade some music effects for Bardic Music feats, as the metamagic route is rather feat heavy.

Also, OP, depending on your Party, a level dip in Spellthief and Master Spellthief (PHBII) nets you the ability to steal spells, which can and cannot be useful depending on your campaign. I usually prefer the caster level, but I have played the ST dip Bard rather successfully in a campaign where arcanists were common foes. If anything, it nets you more spells.

[....]

Be a cleric or a wizard or a druid.

[BardicDuelist]

Be a cleric or a wizard or a druid.

Bards could actually be good summoners if they can get the spells and that, since they are some of the best buffers and so their music can give their hordes some great bonuses.

[ZeroNumerous]

This (without Savage Bard) will likely be your best bet for a Bard Summoner.

The Savage Bard gains Summon Nature's Ally rather than Summon Monster, which is generally regarded as being the better of the two summon-type spells.

Builds: Crap, I forgot Lyric Thaumaturge only advanced Bard casting..

Alright. I forgot you need Bard 6 for Lyric Thaumaturge. So my latest build(thanks to BardicDuelist) looks more like this:

Savage Bard 5/Mindbender 1/Lyric Thaumaturge 3/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/Virtuoso +9

End Result: Bard Casting 9/Sublime Chord 10. I'll just focus on buffs and support-type spells while summoning.

Setting Specific things are not available.

Books(As far as I gather): Completes+SRD.

[Temp]

...a level dip in Spellthief and Master Spellthief (PHBII) nets you the ability to steal spells,You'll still be limited by your Spellthief level to the level of spell you can steal... and if the character's summoning-based, there won't be many opportunities for this.

[AstralFire]

Um, I don't suppose I could get an answer to my question? >_>

[Temp]

The Savage Bard gains Summon Nature's Ally rather than Summon Monster, which is generally regarded as being the better of the two summon-type spells.If you're going to be able to reach Malconvoker level 5, you get to add one extra creature to every Summon Monster spell you cast. I think that pulls Summon Monster ahead.

[ZeroNumerous]

But being unfamiliar with Lyric Thaumaturge and not a big fan of Virtuoso, I don't quite understand why you're using the Bard for this if you're just heading into Sublime Chord?

I thought it was +Arcane spellcasting, not +Bard spellcasting. Ergo, I was using it to gain more spell slots for Summon Nature's Ally. Since I can't do that.. It's not important now.

[Temp]

Okay. Revised plan:

Bard 5/Lyric Thaumaturge 3/Malconvoker (CS) 2/Sublime Chord 1/Malconvoker 8/Sublime Chord 1

Lyric Thaumaturge isn't actually going to do much for you, but it doesn't hurt more than a one-feat investment, so keep it if you want.

You can easily replace the last five levels with Sacred Exorcist (CD)/Thaumaturgist for bonus points... I don't know of any other non-Druid summon-based PrCs (beside Alienist, which destroys your Malconvoker levels)

Feats?
1-Melodic Casting (CM)
3-Spell Focus--Conjuration
6-Augment Summoning
9-Rapid Metamagic (CM)
12-Summon Elemental (CM)
15-Quicken Spell
18-Rapid Spell (CM?)

Max Bluff, Know (Arcane), Listen and Concentration. Sneak in the other prerequisite skill ranks as they approach.

If you are attached to the "Savage" variant, you need to scrounge a feat for Arcane Disciple (Summoner Domain) from Complete Divine. Do this by either being a Human or dropping LT.

[Goumindong]

At least hit level 6 for suggestion. One level is worth 3 uses of suggestion at an average will save of 33 at level 10 and 49 at level 20.

Suggestion might not be as strong as a 9th level spell, but the ridiculous will save more than makes up for it.

[ZeroNumerous]

Malconvoker - Ok, I've looked over it and it works for what I'm shooting for.

Bard 7/Malconvoker 1/Bard +1/Sublime Chord 1/Malconvoker +9 would give me Bard 8/Sublime Chord 10 and works with the problems of qualifying for each prestige class.

Feats
Human- Spell Focus(Conjuration)
1-Augment Summoning
3-[Empty]
6-Snowflake Wardance
9-Cloak Dance
12-Summon Elemental (CM)
15-[Empty]
18-[Empty]

[Goumindong]

At 3 pick up "skill focus: perform" to boost your suggestion DC by 3. IF you can find a way to take 10 on perform checks that is great as well, since rolling a 10 basicially means you succeed at any given level.

Extra Music will also be really handy, since that will give you 2 more suggestions/day[its +4 uses i believe]. There really isnt any ability the bard has better than Suggestion. Inspire Greatness isnt anything to sneeze about though. So consider "song of the heart[another +2 save DC on your suggestions for this and +1 to all the bonuses given by the inspires].

And Metamagic feats are always nice.

If you pump perform, by level 20 with those stats and a masterwork insturment you can hit 1d20+42 on your suggestion DC before any other things that make it more potent with a roll of "1" on that you have equivelent to a 9th level spell with a modified primary casting stat of 58.

[Darrin]

Feats
Human- Spell Focus(Conjuration)
1-Augment Summoning
3-[Empty]
6-Snowflake Wardance
9-Cloak Dance
12-Summon Elemental (CM)
15-[Empty]
18-[Empty]

For 3-[Empty], try Imbued Summoning from PHB2.

I'd also consider Words of Creation at 6. Snowflake Wardance is more for Gish builds... as a summoner/buffer, you're not supposed to be in a position where Snowflake Wardance would be useful.

[nerulean]

Melodic Casting is one of the best feats out there for a bard. It effectively gives you an extra skill point per level and infinite duration Inspire Courage: what more could you want? Pick it up at 3rd level. Words of Creation is good, but with your con you want to wait a couple of levels before you pick it up, unless your meatshields are truly awesome and your DM never uses damage dealing casters.

[Goumindong]

Melodic Casting?

[nerulean]

Melodic Casting from Complete Mage. Lets you use perform in place of concentration in most relevant situations and cast without stopping a bardic music effect.

[BardicDuelist]

Why SF: Conjuration? If you plan to focus on summoning, what DCs are there to increase?

[ZeroNumerous]

Why SF: Conjuration? If you plan to focus on summoning, what DCs are there to increase?

Augment Summoning prereq.

Words of Creation: Most definitely not going to work with the character's personality. Very much a neutral-leaning-hard-toward-evil type.