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Frosty
2007-11-13, 06:18 PM
One of my friends insists that Monks are better overall than Swordsages. I see a lot of similarities between the two, but I'm not comfortable making a statement involving Monk > a PC class.

Is there really anything important (like fulfilling a role) that a Monk can do better than Swordsage besides possibly Diplomacy (I forgot if Swordsages get Diplocacy as a class skill)

Arbitrarity
2007-11-13, 06:25 PM
Falling distances while adjacent to walls? Teleport distance (though swift action, for example > standard action, not to mention 1/day)? Possibly AC, if optimized and at higher levels (Bracers +8, +5+wis from class feature, compared to 4+5+wis for +5 chain shirt). DC's of class features, as swordsages only scale 10+manuver level+stat mod.

Overall? Make a Swordsage, have him make a monk, and kick his ass. Easy :smallbiggrin:

I mean, Swordsages even have better skills! They WIN initiative, they can close decently, and if he tries something like spring attack, you can just use standard attack manuvers to wipe him out. (Diamond Nightmare Blade. Chaging probably works as well)

AstralFire
2007-11-13, 06:28 PM
Monks are better for falling ridiculously large distances next to walls, outliving people in a sedate lifestyle, speaking many languages, and that's really about it.

Tor the Fallen
2007-11-13, 06:30 PM
Monks win, hand down. Besides, no one plays swordsages.

cupkeyk
2007-11-13, 06:30 PM
But swordsages with shadowhand can dimension door too. T_T

Jack_Simth
2007-11-13, 06:30 PM
One of my friends insists that Monks are better overall than Swordsages. I see a lot of similarities between the two, but I'm not comfortable making a statement involving Monk > a PC class.

You do realized you just implied that the Monk is not a PC class, right?


Is there really anything important (like fulfilling a role) that a Monk can do better than Swordsage besides possibly Diplomacy (I forgot if Swordsages get Diplocacy as a class skill)
Overall? Swordsage is probably going to be more useful in an "average" encounter than is the Monk.

Monk's get a slightly better AC bonus based on their level (Wis + a bit), but the Swordsage can use light armor (which can then be enchanted - and more than makes up for the discrepancy, other than the little issue that the armor bonus doesn't apply to touch attacks). Advantage: Swordsage (mostly).

The Monk has a good Fort save, the Swordsage doesn't. Advantage: Monk.

Swordsages get 6 base skill points per level, the Monk, 4. Advantage: Swordsage. They both have comperable skill lists.

Monk gets SR (eventually), Swordsage doesn't. Advantage: Monk.

Swordsage gets class features and martial manuevers. Monk gets class features. Advantage: Swordsage.

Monks are limited to a Lawful alignment - Swordsages have no such limit (although the fluff encourages at least one neutral component). Advantage: Swordsage.

VerdugoExplode
2007-11-13, 06:32 PM
Well, to start it off you need to look your friend into the eye, peer into his soul and make sure that he is serious. If you do find him to be serious in his claim that monks are superior to swordsages you can then proceed to laugh at him for a good 10 minutes.

A swordsage doesn't get diplomacy, but would be able to mop the floor with the monk at pretty much any level. They get more skill points, more skills and their maneuvers would put a monk to shame.

Don't forget that at 7th level swordsages can identify magic weapons and armor by staring at them. By STARING at them! The monk in the meantime can heal a paltry amount of hit points a day.

At 17th level a swordsage is has become a force of death and devastation, capable of bringing ruin to any foolish enough to oppose him, with maneuvers enabling him to perform feats far beyond any mere mortal, outside of casters. A monk can now talk to squirrels.

Seriously, a swordsage would beat the monk easily.

Tor the Fallen
2007-11-13, 06:35 PM
You do realized you just implied that the Monk is not a PC class, right?

I think what he's saying is that monks are better than NPC classes.

A monk can't really be better than a monk, as there's a tautology being violated.

Frosty
2007-11-13, 06:42 PM
I think what he's saying is that monks are better than NPC classes.

A monk can't really be better than a monk, as there's a tautology being violated.

Correct, I started to say that all classes > Monks, but then I realized that Commoners, Aristocrats, and possibly Experts are definitely below Monks, and the Adept and Warrior may be almost on par.

Jack_Simth
2007-11-13, 06:48 PM
Frosty, Tor the Fallen:
Regardless of what was intended in the initial post, when listing A > B, you're saying that A and B are not equal (among other things). You've got Monk on one side, and PC Class on the other.

Or, to put it another way, Frosty, you put Monk in a separate category from PC classes - which implies that the Monk is not a PC class - regardless of actual intent.

Frosty
2007-11-13, 06:52 PM
You are correct. I meant to say Monk < any other pc class.

now, any advice on how to build a swordsage that can win against an optimized monk?

DruchiiConversion
2007-11-13, 07:05 PM
You are correct. I meant to say Monk < any other pc class.

now, any advice on how to build a swordsage that can win against an optimized monk?

Well, he could open the fight by not slitting his own throat.

But then, the monk-lovers would probably say he's doing things specifically designed against monks, and how it's not fair to do things like that because no normal character would do so. Ho-hum.

VerdugoExplode
2007-11-13, 07:13 PM
Mind over body would mean that you could use a concentration check instead of a fortitude save, which at higher levels would be more than enough to beat his DC. Then follow up with any high level maneuver, my favorite being the five shadow creeping ice enervation strike, because I like saying five shadow creeping ice enervation strike. That and he'll take ability damage regardless of whether he makes his save or not. Follow it up with some mountain tombstone strike and he will be hurting.

Any smattering of high level swordsage maneuvers would work though, seriously.

Jack_Simth
2007-11-13, 07:23 PM
You are correct. I meant to say Monk < any other pc class.

It's immaterial, really, I just found the implication that the Monk is an NPC class amusing.


now, any advice on how to build a swordsage that can win against an optimized monk?
At what level? In general...

Avoid stuff with saves (a Monk's strong point), focus on things that deal damage. Max out Spot.

Depending on the arena, take stuff with saves, like that nifty one that kills directly, and go with that nifty stance that lets you WALK ON AIR at any height.

Really, though, a fight of A vs. B is not the way to test the overall usefulness of A vs. B. Put one in as a 5th man in the Iconic Four (Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, Rogue) and run the set of five through several challenges, then put the other in as a 5th man in the Iconic Four and run through the same set of challenges; see which team performed better (incidentally, this test makes a Bard extremely useful...).

brian c
2007-11-13, 07:23 PM
Well, he could open the fight by not slitting his own throat.

But then, the monk-lovers would probably say he's doing things specifically designed against monks, and how it's not fair to do things like that because no normal character would do so. Ho-hum.

Seriously though, beating a monk with a swordsage should not require much work.

First thing though, you and your friend have to agree to use the same race (or at least only PHB races) and the same point-buy. Keep in mind that since Monks are more MAD than Swordsages, the higher the point-buy is the more it favors him. Then, make sure you're not allowing any 3rd party sourcebooks or cheesy tricks (Kobold Monk buys a Candle of Invocation and... see where I'm going here? Monks are awesome then). Oh, and set starting gold and have some ruling about custom items, and how much gold can be spent on a single item. This goes without saying, but make sure you're the same level, and decide if PrCs are allowed.

With those constraints, it insures that you're really testing one class against the other, not testing your optimizing skills against your friend's (or testing one set of PrCs against another).

Frosty
2007-11-13, 07:24 PM
So a Swordsage with only PHB and ToB can probably beat a Monk with all the Splatbooks?

EDIT: And right, my original intent was to ask whether, in a party, a Swordsage would contribute more than a Monk.

Armads
2007-11-13, 07:24 PM
Swooping Dragon Strike basically stuns him with an impossibly high save, Mountain Tombstone Strike hurts his Fort save, Hydra Slaying Strike kills his flurry, and Feral Death Blow inflicts a whole pile of damage onto the monk and might kill him - especially if you've weakened him with Mountain Tombstone Strike and Bloodletting Strike before.

cupkeyk
2007-11-13, 07:33 PM
Maybe if the Monk got martial study for all his feats he might win.

Dausuul
2007-11-13, 07:43 PM
Monks win, hand down. Besides, no one plays swordsages.

Er... they don't, and they do, respectively. I played a swordsage and loved it, and am considering playing another one shortly.

Neon Knight
2007-11-13, 07:46 PM
Er... they don't, and they do, respectively. I played a swordsage and loved it, and am considering playing another one shortly.

Is your sarcasm detector malfunctioning?

Stam
2007-11-13, 07:52 PM
You could, possibly, maybe build a monk who could survive the encounter.

If I were to try, I'd be taking a lot of featage that'd zap MAD down to about two necessary and one useful. I'd toss in two more feats and a MIC item to boost stunning saves up immensely. And then, since Swordsage doesn't get Spot, I'd take Hide and a couple of rogue levels and royally mess the #^$% over.

However. Since the Swordsage was built with the primary idea of, "All the PHB melee classes suck compared to the spellcasters; let's build something that can give a full caster a run for his money," pretty much any PHB melee class is going to be inferior.

Charles Phipps
2007-11-13, 08:08 PM
Monks win, hand down. Besides, no one plays swordsages.

????

Apparently, all of them must be playing at my table. I don't like the Swordsage class as a general rule, it's ridiculously "gimmicky" where I'd much rather prefer something that's more sedate.

However, I play a Wandering SwordsmanTM archetype and there's no real way to do a Decent Monk who wields a Sword. Plus, it seems ridiculous to have a fighter who practices ALL the time be the same as the guy who lives a normal life at equal level.

Arbitrarity
2007-11-13, 08:56 PM
????

Apparently, all of them must be playing at my table. I don't like the Swordsage class as a general rule, it's ridiculously "gimmicky" where I'd much rather prefer something that's more sedate.

However, I play a Wandering SwordsmanTM archetype and there's no real way to do a Decent Monk who wields a Sword. Plus, it seems ridiculous to have a fighter who practices ALL the time be the same as the guy who lives a normal life at equal level.

In what manner is the swordsage "gimmicky"? Flavor? Mechanics of manuvers?

Charles Phipps
2007-11-13, 09:02 PM
In what manner is the swordsage "gimmicky"? Flavor? Mechanics of manuvers?

I don't much care for the magical nature of Special Manuvers to be honest. In the end, I broke character when my Samurai used "Death Mark" for the first time and the enemy burst into screaming death after being hit.

I had to say it "Have you heard the voice of the wind?"

After that, I just knew I could never quite take Swordsage as seriously as I should.

Aquillion
2007-11-13, 09:06 PM
Monk gets SR (eventually), Swordsage doesn't. Advantage: Monk.I wouldn't really count that as a Monk advantage.... enemy spellcasters worth fighting will generally have no trouble bypassing it (assuming they target the monk directly at all, which they usually wouldn't bother doing anyway 'cause of the saves.) The problem is that almost all NPC casters are going to have a CL well above your party's level, and monks have no way to compensate by boosting their SR in turn. Against things with character levels (or other players) it gets even worse, since there are so many ways to boost CL.

brian c
2007-11-13, 09:14 PM
So a Swordsage with only PHB and ToB can probably beat a Monk with all the Splatbooks?

EDIT: And right, my original intent was to ask whether, in a party, a Swordsage would contribute more than a Monk.

I didn't mean that; splatbooks give more stuff for both players to work with. If you build a swordsage using only ToB and Core, but your friend used a lot of other stuff for his monk, maybe he could beat you. With the same sources, swordsage should win.

In terms of party contribution, Swordsages can do everything that a monk can do with some exceptions
1) Can't fall down cliffs without taking damage- but Feather Fall does that anyway.
2) Not as good Fort save/not immune to poison/disease, so more susceptible to many traps and monsters
3) Doesn't know all languages

but there are some key points in which Swordsages are better than monks
1) Maneuvers are really really good; more contribution in combat
2) ID'ing magic items as a class feature
3) More skill points and better skill list (though without diplomacy, you could try to get your DM to let you add that, doesn't matter much unless you abuse it)

In general, I'd say the Swordsage is almost always better than the Monk

Dausuul
2007-11-13, 09:30 PM
Is your sarcasm detector malfunctioning?

It always goes on the fritz when I start poking around the Internet. People say the darndest things and mean them.

VerdugoExplode
2007-11-13, 09:30 PM
Well, a swordsage can also get spider climb as a stance, so not only can he go down cliffs, he can also climb back up.

Also, five shadow creeping ice enervation strike.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-13, 09:46 PM
Two things destroy any chance the monk has: Balance in the Sky and the raging mongoose/girallon windmill flesh rip/time stands still combo. Need I say more?

SilverClawShift
2007-11-13, 10:03 PM
You are correct. I meant to say Monk < any other pc class.

I dunno. I'd rather play a monk than a complete warrior samurai. Just because at least then my monk would actually have something for me to be doing, even if it was jumping out the window and slow-falling to saftey. Rather than just staring, FURIOUSLY, and hoping my enemy ran away.

VerdugoExplode
2007-11-13, 10:09 PM
I dunno. I'd rather play a monk than a complete warrior samurai. Just because at least then my monk would actually have something for me to be doing, even if it was jumping out the window and slow-falling to saftey. Rather than just staring, FURIOUSLY, and hoping my enemy ran away.

Well I'm sure many would opt for a warrior or adept before going for the complete warrior samurai. I still wonder how they managed to pack so much fail into only 20 levels. It boggles my mind.

ZeroNumerous
2007-11-13, 10:28 PM
It's immaterial, really, I just found the implication that the Monk is an NPC class amusing.

You mean Monk isn't an NPC class? Well darn, I was giving it to NPCs to inflate their hit dice without actually posing any threat to my players. Silly me.


I dunno. I'd rather play a monk than a complete warrior samurai.

What is this samurai you speak of? I don't recall any samurai being printed since Oriental Adventures..

Kompera
2007-11-13, 10:43 PM
The problem is that almost all NPC casters are going to have a CL well above your party's level
Why would this be the case? If the caster isn't the BBEG, it's CL should be within striking distance of the party's level. Maybe up a few levels, but maybe down a few levels also. If it's always above, then the party will probably never make it to the BBEG...

Thinker
2007-11-13, 10:54 PM
Why would this be the case? If the caster isn't the BBEG, it's CL should be within striking distance of the party's level. Maybe up a few levels, but maybe down a few levels also. If it's always above, then the party will probably never make it to the BBEG...

Maybe its because CL is the easiest thing to raise way past your level? The opponents the PCs face should be optimized to the same levels as the PCs.

leperkhaun
2007-11-14, 12:05 AM
You mean Monk isn't an NPC class? Well darn, I was giving it to NPCs to inflate their hit dice without actually posing any threat to my players. Silly me.



What is this samurai you speak of? I don't recall any samurai being printed since Oriental Adventures..


its the samurai featured in Complete Warrior, its.....yeah....i think the designers did it so they could laugh at anyone who chose it.

Kompera
2007-11-14, 01:12 AM
Maybe its because CL is the easiest thing to raise way past your level? The opponents the PCs face should be optimized to the same levels as the PCs.As both a player and a GM I have not found this to be the case.

As a GM I'll put some extra time and effort into customizing the BBEG and a few other NPCs, but for general encounters the word 'optimization' has no bearing. If I need to raise the challenge level I'll add more mooks or raise the level of the caster. To do otherwise is far to time consuming. Even fleshing out the spell lists of NPC casters is a pain.

And as I player I don't have the same amount of knowledge as when I'm the GM, of course. But observation tells me that GMs I've run under also don't take the time to optimize their run of the mill encounters.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-14, 01:35 AM
My suggestion- take Skill Focus and Toughness for all your feats, and use a bow. Then the monk might have a chance.

We do want this to be a fair fight, right?

Temp
2007-11-14, 01:54 AM
I think Dictum Mortuum wrote a guide that'll help you build a Monk-Tier Swordsage.

I make no promises for its success, but here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=873736)it is.

Just be sure you don't accidentally give your Swordsage the Adaptive Style feat. That would be devastating.

JaxGaret
2007-11-14, 01:59 AM
My sig is the win.

Yeah, it totally is. Love that movie, good tunes too.

ZeroNumerous
2007-11-14, 02:52 AM
its the samurai featured in Complete Warrior, its.....yeah....i think the designers did it so they could laugh at anyone who chose it.

I have no idea what you're talking about. All I see in Complete Warrior is Hexblade, Swashbuckler, and this giant empty space about five pages long.

Frosty
2007-11-14, 02:57 AM
Well I'm sure many would opt for a warrior or adept before going for the complete warrior samurai.

I must be rolling realling low on my Detect Sarcasm roll as I am unable to determine whether you are kidding or not with that statement.

JaxGaret
2007-11-14, 03:05 AM
I must be rolling realling low on my Detect Sarcasm roll as I am unable to determine whether you are kidding or not with that statement.

I might possibly pick an Adept over a CW Samurai. No joke.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-14, 03:25 AM
Heck, at high level, I'd pick an adept over fighter, monk, and paladin.

Spells are better than no/cruddy class features.

AstralFire
2007-11-14, 03:42 AM
I would rather play Fighter 10/Monk 10 than play a CW Samurai. Seriously. It's that bad.

Ninja Chocobo
2007-11-14, 07:19 AM
It gets d10 HD and full BAB.
That makes it better than the Warrior, if only by 1 hp/level.

ZeroNumerous
2007-11-14, 07:21 AM
That makes it better than the Warrior, if only by 1 hp/level.

Of course Fighter/Hexblade/Swashbuckler is better than Warrior. I don't think anyone is arguing that.

Ninja Chocobo
2007-11-14, 07:26 AM
Of course Fighter/Hexblade/Swashbuckler is better than Warrior. I don't think anyone is arguing that.

I was talking about...that...

...I don't remember anymore...

lord_khaine
2007-11-14, 08:37 AM
come on, this is unfair, the ToB classes was made to at least partly be able to stand up to full casters, and there isnt any of the melee classes from the phb, that would stand a chance against them in a normal battle.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-14, 08:55 AM
And that's the reason we enjoy pitting them against PHB classes. That, and that is annoys monk lovers.

Yuki Akuma
2007-11-14, 09:11 AM
come on, this is unfair, the ToB classes was made to at least partly be able to stand up to full casters, and there isnt any of the melee classes from the phb, that would stand a chance against them in a normal battle.

What? Clerics and Druids can stand up against full casters, and they're melee classes!

Certainly better melee classes than the crummy old Fighter, anyway...

lord_khaine
2007-11-14, 09:17 AM
What? Clerics and Druids can stand up against full casters, and they're melee classes

clerics and druids are mostly melee classes because they are full casters, if they lost their spellcasting they wouldnt stand a better chance than the other melee classes.

ZeroNumerous
2007-11-14, 09:50 AM
clerics and druids are mostly melee classes because they are full casters, if they lost their spellcasting they wouldnt stand a better chance than the other melee classes.

...

...

...

...

OK, you broke my Sarcasm Detector. Are you honestly serious? Cleric I can understand. But druid?

elliott20
2007-11-14, 10:27 AM
it's no joke: shapechange + grappling = win.

ZeroNumerous
2007-11-14, 11:47 AM
it's no joke: shapechange + grappling = win.

That in no way addresses my issue. Shapechange is broken, sure. But a druid without spells still beats the pants off any and all monks and most fighters or rogues.

Frosty
2007-11-14, 12:03 PM
Of course Fighter/Hexblade/Swashbuckler is better than Warrior. I don't think anyone is arguing that.

I think they were comparing Samurai to Warrior.

ZeroNumerous
2007-11-14, 12:07 PM
I think they were comparing Samurai to Warrior.

What class is that? I'm sorry, the only Samurai I know of is in OA. And it's 3.0.

BadJuJu
2007-11-14, 12:10 PM
A swordsage doesn't get diplomacy, but would be able to mop the floor with the monk at pretty much any level. They get more skill points, more skills and their maneuvers would put a monk to shame.

Easy to fix by taking martial study once. WRT anyone?




At 17th level a swordsage is has become a force of death and devastation, capable of bringing ruin to any foolish enough to oppose him, with maneuvers enabling him to perform feats far beyond any mere mortal, outside of casters. A monk can now talk to squirrels.


Too funny, I almost lost my coffee. Really, there is almost no doubt that SS wins 11 out of 10 times. Monk is too weak of a class to even come close.

Aquillion
2007-11-14, 12:23 PM
Too funny, I almost lost my coffee. Really, there is almost no doubt that SS wins 11 out of 10 times. Monk is too weak of a class to even come close.Not so! I have a simple fix that will allow the Monk to fight the swordsage and, often, win.

We'll start out as a human. At first level, we take a level in Swordsage. For the next 19 levels, take levels in Swordsage.

Problem solved! A monk that can fight a swordsage. :smalltongue:

BadJuJu
2007-11-14, 12:30 PM
Not so! I have a simple fix that will allow the Monk to fight the swordsage and, often, win.

We'll start out as a human. At first level, we take a level in Swordsage. For the next 19 levels, take levels in Swordsage.

Problem solved! A monk that can fight a swordsage. :smalltongue:

There we go. And this beats my alternative, which was put all my dice in a sock and hit the SS player with it till unconciousness. Problem solved, I win hands down.

Indon
2007-11-14, 12:32 PM
All of the Tome of Battle classes are, simply put, more powerful than their core counterparts. This is intentional.

Though, props to the monk for making his replacement less obvious than the Warblade and Crusader are.

Blue Paladin
2007-11-14, 12:42 PM
Easy to fix by taking martial study once. WRT anyone?Which he gets to use all of... once? And that's it. Taking Martial Study doesn't give you any kind of recovery mechanic.

As mentioned earlier, Balance On The Sky beats the Monk. Maneuvers with no save beat the Monk. Heck, several maneuvers with a save beat the Monk.

These are the areas where the Monk wins:
Running pretty fast.
Not getting the flu.
Poison drinking contest.
Bungieless cliff diving.
Translating at the UN.
Looking young at 65.

ZeroNumerous
2007-11-14, 12:45 PM
These are the areas where the Monk wins:
Running pretty fast.
Not getting the flu.
Poison drinking contest.
Bungieless cliff diving.
Translating at the UN.
Looking young at 65.

A Xeph can run fast too.
High Con is good too.
Dwarf is good too.
Shadow Jaunt to the bottom.
Lots of ranks into Speak Language. Changeling is good too.
Elan is good too.

:smallamused:

Person_Man
2007-11-14, 12:45 PM
All of the Tome of Battle classes are, simply put, more powerful than their core counterparts. This is intentional.

Though, props to the monk for making his replacement less obvious than the Warblade and Crusader are.

I generally agree with this statement. The Crusader is a more powerful Paladin. The Warblade is a more powerful Fighter. The Swordsage is a more powerful Monk. This was intentional, because players constantly complained about the differences between casters and non-casters. Not only are casters more powerful, but they have a ton of different options regarding what they can do during a game. The core melee classes basically just hit stuff, and occasionally make a Skill check.

However, I'd like to say that I'm glad that there are classes that are relatively simple to play. It makes the learning curve on D&D much easier for new players. Especially flavorful ones like the Monk, which basically just get Flurry of Blows and Stunning Fist, a few bonus feats, and a list of immunities that grows with levels. Not everyone wants the bookkeeping hassle that ToB requires.

Frosty
2007-11-14, 12:50 PM
I believe that core melee classes can dish out more damage, but ToB is better at...everything else.

Ok, let's flip this around. If you were optimizing the Monk and going Monk20, what would you take in terms of feats and items to beat a Swordsage in 1) generaly utility to a party and 2) in straight combat

VerdugoExplode
2007-11-14, 01:20 PM
For utility, if we needed to start a Disney-esque song where the animals sing along then the monks our man. If we need stealth, uh, we would probably go with a swordsage or rogue. If we need diplomacy, well, the crusader would probably be better, or the rogue again. If we need to jump down 30 feet though, the monks got it handled! Unless we need to go back up in which case the swordsage wins again. For battlefield mobility the swordage beats the monk hands down. Their shadow jump abilities function like a dimension door but without the annoying "can't do anything afterwards" clause.

For general utility there is nothing a monk can do that another class couldn't do much better.

Indon
2007-11-14, 01:20 PM
I believe that core melee classes can dish out more damage, but ToB is better at...everything else.

Ok, let's flip this around. If you were optimizing the Monk and going Monk20, what would you take in terms of feats and items to beat a Swordsage in 1) generaly utility to a party and 2) in straight combat

With no limits to cheese?

1.)Diplomancy.

2.)Access to as many attacks and size increases as possible. Polymorphed into something big, then get Greater Mighty Walloped, for instance. Swordsages can benefit from size increases as well, but they're less oriented around grappling, and their unarmed damage dice aren't as great.

I'll leave it to others to provide reasonable answers.

Person_Man
2007-11-14, 02:56 PM
I believe that core melee classes can dish out more damage, but ToB is better at...everything else.

Ok, let's flip this around. If you were optimizing the Monk and going Monk20, what would you take in terms of feats and items to beat a Swordsage in 1) generaly utility to a party and 2) in straight combat

Off the top of my head:

Freezing the Lifeblood: Complete Warrior: Burn a Stunning Fist use to make a Paralyzing attack that lasts for 1d4+1 rounds. Probably the most powerful Monk feat out there, which unfortunately requires +10 BAB (which means a strait Monk doesn't get the option of taking it until 15th level).

Pain Touch: Complete Warrior: If you successfully use Stunning Fist, your enemy is also nauseated for 1 round afterwards (limiting them to a single Move action and preventing them from attacking, casting, or anything that requires concentration). An absolute must for pure Monks that are lower then 15th level, though it becomes useless once you have Freezing the Lifeblood. Hopefully your DM will let you retrain.

Serpent Strike: Eberron: Lets you use Flurry of Blows with a longspear. This adds reach to your normal combat routine and tactics, which can potentially be huge.

Knock-Down (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/divineFeats.html): When combined with Improved Trip and Combat Reflexes (go bonus feats!) this adds battlefield control to your build. Works well with Serpent Strike. Hold the Line is also helpful for this, but not necessary.

There are plenty more, depending upon what style of play you enjoy, and whether or not you can use Dragon mag material.

Tokiko Mima
2007-11-14, 05:13 PM
Don't forget Touch of Golden Ice from BoED, which is great for lower level Monks fighting evil foes. You get to poison with every attack! You opponent has to botch their Fort save sometime, right?

Indon
2007-11-14, 05:29 PM
Don't forget Touch of Golden Ice from BoED, which is great for lower level Monks fighting evil foes. You get to poison with every attack! You opponent has to botch their Fort save sometime, right?

That's true, and even if your opponent only fails on a 1, dex damage, when it happens, is pretty potent.

Sure, casters can do it ten times better, but they're casters.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-11-15, 02:38 AM
Don't forget Diplomacy doesn't work against PCs only NPCs.

The Monk class generally works best for a generalist skill monkey class dipping type PC whic can be a lot of fun to play if you like Lawful PCs.

Just going Rogue -1, Factotum - 1 (or 3) and Marshal -1 with a Human with Adaptive Learning feat does the trick for 2 to 3 levels if you want to qualify for PRCs like Tattooed Monk or Psionic Fist with all the source books open and just doing things with Rogue, Factotum, Ninja, Marshal and Dragon Shaman &Your PC can be the party base healer with the 50% healing battery aura, get everyone up to 50% before healing them normally which conserves spells and magic items.

Taking feats like the Ascetic Rogue feat from Complete Adventurer so sneak attack stacks with unarmed combat damange, the Carmendine Monk feat from Champions of Valor Motivate Int, Iajutsu Focus Samauri skill from Oriental Adventures due to Factotum for some extra damage attacks drawing a weapon, Inspiration Points from Factotum provide a lot of bennies for each encounter for a 1 to 3 level dips. Taking a few dips in a ToB class at higher levels for a few more options with Maneuvers. Hitting levels 5+ you can do some pretty neat stuff in game.

Acquiring some minor or major spellcasting or psionics in a VoP build to shore up a few of the holes in the Vow benefits.

Sticking primarily to a monk build:

Factotum -1 with Wild Talent , Monk -3, Marshal - 1, Fist of Zuoken or Psychic Monk - 10, Tattooed Monk -5

Blue Paladin
2007-11-15, 11:45 AM
A Xeph can run fast too.
High Con is good too.
Dwarf is good too.
Shadow Jaunt to the bottom.
Lots of ranks into Speak Language. Changeling is good too.
Elan is good too.

:smallamused:


A Xeph maxes out at 60' at level 9; Monk keeps improving.
People with high Con still roll ones.
Dwarves still roll ones.
Shadow Jaunt goes 50'; have fun falling the rest of the way.
Speak Language doesn't help you talk to trees, bugs, or other things that don't have a language. Changeling doesn't help either. And Swordsages don't have Speak Language as a class skill.
Are you talking about elan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/elan.htm)s (there's nothing in that description that seems to apply)? Or something different?

Besides, I'd like to see a Swordsage that is simultaneously a Changeling-Dwarf-Elan-Xeph.

:smallamused:

Frosty
2007-11-15, 11:47 AM
Sticking primarily to a monk build:

Factotum -1 with Wild Talent , Monk -3, Marshal - 1, Fist of Zuoken or Psychic Monk - 10, Tattooed Monk -5

I don't believe I have access to any of these classes except base Monk rofl. Is Tattooed Monk from any one of the Complete series?

Stam
2007-11-15, 12:08 PM
Good-ish reasons to dip into monk builds...

Carmendine Monk/Rogue or Monk/Swashbuckler. Finesse and Int for much less MAD. Monk/Fighter/Duelist is similar, but likely with a higher AC.
Monk/Druid/Sacred Fist.

Others? Some good builds could probably stand up to the Swordsage, with the right items. (Flight isn't all that great a defense once you can buy an item that gives you the same effect.)

Frosty
2007-11-15, 12:14 PM
Less MAD? Monks dump Int anyways because they don't need it. Int and CHA are their dump stats.

But I don't know what Carmeline Monks do.

BadJuJu
2007-11-15, 12:14 PM
Which he gets to use all of... once? And that's it. Taking Martial Study doesn't give you any kind of recovery mechanic.

As mentioned earlier, Balance On The Sky beats the Monk. Maneuvers with no save beat the Monk. Heck, several maneuvers with a save beat the Monk.

These are the areas where the Monk wins:
Running pretty fast.
Not getting the flu.
Poison drinking contest.
Bungieless cliff diving.
Translating at the UN.
Looking young at 65.

You misread. Martial study would alo\low a SS to get diplomacy as a class skill and WRT. He would have a recovery method and that eliminates the only thing the Mook...I mean Monk had going for it.

Stam
2007-11-15, 12:20 PM
Less MAD? Monks dump Int anyways because they don't need it. Int and CHA are their dump stats.

But I don't know what Carmeline Monks do.

Carmendine Monk is a feat that lets you swap Wis for Int as your main-Monk-ability stat. Similar to Kung Fu Genius.

lord_khaine
2007-11-15, 01:16 PM
if you could find the space for it then ability focus, stunning fist is also pretty handy for +2 dc on your stunning fist attack, and weakening touch allows you to burn a SF attempt to inflict a -6 str penalty on a opponent.

ZeroNumerous
2007-11-15, 07:16 PM
Besides, I'd like to see a Swordsage that is simultaneously a Changeling-Dwarf-Elan-Xeph.

:smallamused:

I'd like to see a useful monk. We can both dream, can't we?

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-15, 08:25 PM
Correct, I started to say that all classes > Monks, but then I realized that Commoners, Aristocrats, and possibly Experts are definitely below Monks, and the Adept and Warrior may be almost on par.

Experts might still be above monks because they can selectively choose class skills and become better Diplomancers than monks (stack Bluff, Sense Motive and Knowledge [nobility and royalty] bonuses onto Diplomacy FTW and take Speak Language to be able to eventually talk anyone down, long before monks finally get that as a class ability at level 17). And Diplomacy is probably the most powerful thing in a monk's arsenal, overall.

Ditto for aristocrats because they already have the skills that can make experts so powerful right there on their list.

Warriors might be able to hold their own in battle with monks, if built right.

Adepts are spellcasters, even if they're weak spellcasters, and might be able to outclass monks both in utility and even possibly a direct contest.

So that probably just leaves commoners as definitely weaker.

Frosty
2007-11-16, 10:18 AM
So sad that only commoners are weaker than monks...

Dode
2007-11-16, 10:21 AM
So sad that only commoners are weaker than monks... I dunno, I'll bet that commoner chose to retrain out his levels in Truenamer before showing up to the lineup.

Indon
2007-11-16, 11:10 AM
So sad that only commoners are weaker than monks...

Adepts are more powerful than multiple classes.

Experts are rogues without sneak attack, and the rogue has comparatively little utility in combat; he's mostly for skills.

Aristocrats possess the most powerful cheese-feature of Bards.

All of those classes are significantly more powerful than many noncaster classes.

As for the warrior, I doubt he's inferior to the monk. It takes the Fighter his bonus feats to pull ahead of the Monk, and the Warrior doesn't have those and other disadvantages besides.

The Rabbler
2010-04-15, 03:07 PM
I don't really understand this whole everyone-hates-monks thing. Am I really the only one who has seen a monk kick ass? one of my (very) inexperienced friends managed to whip out a human monk with battle fists who did 6d8 damage on a punch, was able to get anywhere within 100ft in a move action, and attack 5 times in a full attack. and she could walk up walls. she did this by level 7 or 8. anyway, that's a different conversation.

that being said, a high level swordsage would probably still contribute more than a monk due simply to versatility and outright power (baisically what makes the difference between a wizard and... a warlock. without invocations).

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-15, 03:15 PM
I don't really understand this whole everyone-hates-monks thing. Am I really the only one who has seen a monk kick ass? one of my (very) inexperienced friends managed to whip out a human monk with battle fists who did 6d8 damage on a punch, was able to get anywhere within 100ft in a move action, and attack 5 times in a full attack. and she could walk up walls. she did this by level 7 or 8. anyway, that's a different conversation.

that being said, a high level swordsage would probably still contribute more than a monk due simply to versatility and outright power (baisically what makes the difference between a wizard and... a warlock. without invocations).

Dude, you just rezzed an argument that's 3 years old! What page are you viewing on your normal forums?

Frosty
2010-04-15, 03:39 PM
Update: My friend now believes that Swordsages are more powerful than Monks.


Dude, you just rezzed an argument that's 3 years old! What page are you viewing on your normal forums?
It was less of an argument and more of an agreement amongst the posters.

The Rabbler
2010-04-15, 03:42 PM
huh. wow. i'm not sure how that happened. my bad.

Tinydwarfman
2010-04-15, 03:44 PM
I don't really understand this whole everyone-hates-monks thing. Am I really the only one who has seen a monk kick ass? one of my (very) inexperienced friends managed to whip out a human monk with battle fists who did 6d8 damage on a punch, was able to get anywhere within 100ft in a move action, and attack 5 times in a full attack. and she could walk up walls. she did this by level 7 or 8. anyway, that's a different conversation.

that being said, a high level swordsage would probably still contribute more than a monk due simply to versatility and outright power (baisically what makes the difference between a wizard and... a warlock. without invocations).

A human monk with battle fists? And 100ft move? by level 8? how? And walking up walls? sounds like a psionic monk, which is an actually GOOD build.

The Rabbler
2010-04-15, 04:13 PM
human, warforged grafts, battlefists with sizing, oversized two weapon fighting, monk's belt, and some size buffs.

speedy trait, armor crystal of speed, enchanted clothes of quickness, and expedious retreat (I spelled that wrong...).

and she had wild talent for up the walls.

that was pretty much it.

Roland St. Jude
2010-04-15, 04:13 PM
Sheriff: Thread necromancy.