PDA

View Full Version : Stacked Penalties for improv. exotic weapons...



SoD
2007-11-14, 11:05 AM
I'm pretty sure that these would stack, but just thought I'd make sure.
If a character who is not proficient with an exotic weapon, and uses an improvised version (e.g. a length of rope as a whip), they'd get a -8 to hit, right? -4 for improvised weapons, plus -4 for lack of proficiency.
Am I right?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-11-14, 11:15 AM
No, the penalty for using an improvised weapon is actually a penalty for non-proficiency.


Improvised Weapons: Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses one in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a 4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

Belkarseviltwin
2007-11-14, 04:39 PM
Could you take an Exotic Weapon Proficiency in it? And would it apply to:
a) One specific improvised weapon (this table here)
b) One specific object (tables)
c) One specific class of object (furniture)
d) One specific size of object (Large)
e) All improvised weapons (like the Drunken Master ability)

Jasdoif
2007-11-14, 04:53 PM
Could you take an Exotic Weapon Proficiency in it?No. Objects that are not meant to be used as weapons are not types of weapons, much less types of exotic weapons, and thus can't be chosen for an Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat.

Yeril
2007-11-14, 05:12 PM
No. Objects that are not meant to be used as weapons are not types of weapons, much less types of exotic weapons, and thus can't be chosen for an Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat.

Tehehe.. that still reminds me of one of the best magical items in my games..

Once upon a time in a land long lost, a dragon was terrorising the city, it was the last hope, the last change, a wizard, and a warrior, banded together to use might and magic to overcome the dragon, but there was an accident, the wizard was enchanting the warriors already powerful sword and there was an explosion, killing them both and destroying the weapon.

But not was all lost, the magical effect had taken place in a new home, in the debris.. and skittling across the floor from the explosion, barley surviving was...

The +4 Dragonbane Chair leg! (Improvised club!)

Sadly no one noticed and the dragon ate everyone...



its still a good story :smallsmile:

Chronos
2007-11-14, 06:12 PM
Is an "improvised club" really even possible? I mean, a club is already basically an improvised cudgel, except that a blunt stick that you whack people with is simple enough that even the improvised version is eligible for proficiency and such.

Fhaolan
2007-11-14, 08:00 PM
Depends on whether you count a baseball bat as a club, or a wooden mace. (Is there a difference between a club and a wooden mace in RAW? My brains turning to mush as it is.)

I think it is considered to be a club, and there is some semblance of balance to it, making it a non-improvised weapon. The same way a quarterstaff isn't just a big stick, it does require work to achieve a balanced weapon out of it.

(Which is why I dislike the fact that quarterstaves, clubs, and slings cost nothing. That's piffle written by someone who's never used such weapons and found out how much crafting is actually involved in making a functional weapon out of wood or cloth.)

Chronos
2007-11-14, 11:41 PM
(Which is why I dislike the fact that quarterstaves, clubs, and slings cost nothing. That's piffle written by someone who's never used such weapons and found out how much crafting is actually involved in making a functional weapon out of wood or cloth.)Huh, I've always found that a random stick (of approximately the right size) picked up in the woods is balanced just fine as a quarterstaff (and yes, I do know how to use one). It's not masterwork or anything, but it's still well-balanced enough to practice a kata with.

Grynning
2007-11-15, 12:07 AM
I tend not to fuss about weapon proficiencies too much, and I prefer the weapon group proficiencies optional rules in UA/SRD much more (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/weaponGroupFeats.htm). It really doesn't make sense that someone skilled in fighting with a sword or what-have-you can't adapt similar principles to a stick (and win, a la Musashi with his oar). I would house rule that if the improvised piece of wood was sturdy/well balanced enough as is that it could be used as a club or staff without penalty.

Pironious
2007-11-15, 12:24 AM
Huh, I've always found that a random stick (of approximately the right size) picked up in the woods is balanced just fine as a quarterstaff (and yes, I do know how to use one). It's not masterwork or anything, but it's still well-balanced enough to practice a kata with.

Oddly enough, Quarterstaves have a cost of 0gp, so yeah, pretty much.

Jack Zander
2007-11-15, 12:55 AM
Why isn't a club, mace (light and heavy), and morningstar the same thing as far as proficiencies go? I'm pretty sure if you handed me a mace I'd do just as well as I would with a wooden version of it. And for some reason, if my spear is just a wee bit longer I can't effectively attack with it... huh?

Then if I take the feat Martial Weapon Proficiency (longsword), and use it two handed, I can't use a bastard sword or greatsword two handed without taking huge penalties... what?

If I go to a river a pick up a smooth stone, it doesn't throw as accurate as a lead bullet... whatever...

Grynning
2007-11-15, 02:15 AM
Refer to my post above for a link to the Weapon Group Proficiency rules, which are official and address the very issues you just described.

Jayabalard
2007-11-15, 07:44 AM
No. Objects that are not meant to be used as weapons are not types of weapons, much less types of exotic weapons, and thus can't be chosen for an Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat.This doesn't really seem to be relevant to me... improvised or not, if you practice with it you could become proficient in using it as a weapon.

I mean, it's not like a scythe was meant to be used as a weapon either... or any of the other dozens of farm implements that have made it onto the weapon list over the years.

Fhaolan
2007-11-15, 09:05 AM
This doesn't really seem to be relevant to me... improvised or not, if you practice with it you could become proficient in using it as a weapon.

I mean, it's not like a scythe was meant to be used as a weapon either... or any of the other dozens of farm implements that have made it onto the weapon list over the years.

Yeah. In RL when they turned farm implements into proper weapons, they changed a lot to make them workable. Scythes became fauchards, pruning hooks became guisarmes, the threshing flail looks significantly different from the weapon flail, etc. While you can still see where they came from, there was a lot of adjusting done to them to make them non-improvised weapons.

Add in the fact that a lot of the 'exotic' weapons on the D&D lists just never happened in RL for various reasons, and that means trying to use logic and RL 'reasonableness' to decide whether a weapon is improvised or not is kinda a nonstarter. The game just doesn't model reality enough with it's weapon lists to use that as a basis.

Epic_Wizard
2007-11-15, 12:43 PM
A mace is actually significantly different from a club. The first and most obvious difference is that a club is made of (generally meaning probably unless it is masterwork) unworked wood and a mace is made out of worked metal. This affects the balance of the weapon and the most effective way to use it.

http://www.godwars2.com/images/weapons/mace.jpghttp://www.godwars2.com/images/weapons/cudgel.jpg

The mace has distinct points on it that would do more damage if they make contact with an enemy where as the club is basically just as effective no matter which face or, possibly even end, you hit them with. This changes the balance of the weapon and while you could probably do alright with a club if you have used a mace the reverse might not be true. Then again general weapons training would help in either case.

Chronos
2007-11-15, 02:45 PM
the threshing flail looks significantly different from the weapon flail, etc.But a threshing flail is still pretty similar to a nunchuk. There, though, the idea wasn't to come up with the most effective weapon possible, but the most effective weapon allowed. Peasents weren't allowed to own weapons, so if they were going to fight effectively, they had to figure out how to do so with things that didn't count as weapons. This is also the origin of all of the various unarmed martial arts, as well as the Irish shilleilagh.

On the mace/club question, the biggest difference will be the weight distribution. A club has the weight distributed more or less uniformly along the length, while a mace, and even more so a morningstar, will have it concentrated at the end.

Jasdoif
2007-11-15, 03:35 PM
This doesn't really seem to be relevant to me... improvised or not, if you practice with it you could become proficient in using it as a weapon.The question I was answering was if you could take Exotic Weapon Proficiency to become proficient with an improvised weapon. And the answer is "no".

Jayabalard
2007-11-15, 04:09 PM
The question I was answering was if you could take Exotic Weapon Proficiency to become proficient with an improvised weapon. And the answer is "not in a campaign that I'm running".fixed that for you.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-11-15, 04:17 PM
fixed that for you.

Not sure you did.

Jasdoif meant "No, not by RAW".

Whether that is also true for a campaign Jasdoif could be running is irrelevant.

Jasdoif
2007-11-15, 04:43 PM
Conveniently I'm not running a campaign, so it's doubly irrelevant :smalltongue:

RAW aside, I personally don't think Exotic Weapon Proficiency would be suitable for an improvised weapon; it should be a different feat. Preferably one without the minimum BAB requirement, I imagine it'd be the people with BAB 0 that would be most likely to rely on improvised weapons.

If the campaign used the aforementioned weapon groups variant, this feat would also serve to add the weapon to a thematically similar weapon group for the character; so as to allow the character to gain weapon-specific benefits without penalizing them if they later decide to move onto similar non-improvised weaponry.