Will this party have a hard time?

[Frosty]

If the party consisted of these 4 characters with very little (if any) multiclassing, will it have a hard time adventuring, especially long advenures with not very much time to rest? What will be its strengths and weaknesses?

Sun Elf Beguiler
Catfolk Knight
Dwarf Duskblade
Human Dragon Shaman

Houserules say Dragon Shaman have Martial weapon proficiency and full BAB.

[RTGoodman]

The Knight and Duskblade will be good all day long, since, even if they run out of spells/knight's challenge uses, they'll still have melee capabilities.

The Dragon Shaman is made for that sort of thing, since his auras are constantly active and can give various nice abilities (especially the fast healing up to 1/2 max HP, for a party with no Cleric).

The Beguiler, I think (and I've never played one, so I could be wrong), relies on spells more than the others, but can still do other stuff even without spells (trapfinding I think, minor combat abilities, etc.).

[Prometheus]

I think that there are very few parties that are unplayable. I think the DM should craft the adventure around the characters if it ever becomes a problem.

[Nerd-o-rama]

You don't have the versatility of a dedicated wizard, but most parties can live without it. You're melee-heavy, and will probably end up charging in and hammering most encounters to death, but that's a viable strategy unless the DM tries to work against it.

Beguiler covers skillmonkey/scout, utility, and battlefield control caster archetypes. The knight is your damage-absorber, Duskblade is your damage-dealer (with mostly melee but some ranged magic capability), and the Dragon Shaman is good all-around support.

What you're really missing is healing. Dragon Shaman can handle some of the healing with Draconic Vigor (there's no real reason for a party to go into a fight with less than half health with a Dragon Shaman around,) and supplemental healing can be done with Healing Belts, Healing Potions, or wands/scrolls from the Beguiler.

[tyckspoon]

They're going to have to be careful about managing the damage they take, and healing is going to be expensive since most of it will have to come from magic items, but they'll survive. The Duskblade, Beguiler, and Knight are all built around uses/day abilities; once they run those out, the Duskblade and Knight will be rather like a featless Fighter, and the Beguiler is going to operate like a Sneak Attack-less Rogue. They can keep going after that point, but they aren't going to want to. (Although this would be a good chance for the Beguiler's skills to shine; Diplomacy and Bluff can and should be used to talk your way past unnecessary combats in an endurance-trial style of adventure.)

They're going to be very wary of ability damage and energy drain. HP damage is relatively easy to fix, but more exotic damage types are much more difficult and expensive to take care of without somebody who can cast Restorations off their own list.

[Frosty]

Exactly how hurt will they be without a dedicated wizard? I'm thinking that without Fly, many easily bypassable hazards are dangerous once more. Traps may not be a huge deal if the Beguiler is competent, and again, lack of ranged attacks really hurt, but...

Otherwise, go Team PHB2?

[Hazkali]

I think that there are very few parties that are unplayable. I think the DM should craft the adventure around the characters if it ever becomes a problem.

Quoted for Truth.

If a party has (consistently) a too hard or too easy time of things, then the DM is doing something wrong. Especially, there is no point in giving players challenges when they don't have access to a resource to overcome them, or keeping on giving them challenges that they know how to overcome with ease. If anything, it kills verisimilitude when such a group continually goes on adventures that they cannot handle, because that isn't the way people work in real life.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

Otherwise, go Team PHB2?

Excellent quote. all you need in there is a Decisive Strike Monk and a Stalwart Sorcerer.. and you would be all PHBII. :smallsmile:

I have a group running now with a Half-Fey Sorcereress/Stormcaster , Wilder, Barbarian, cleric, and Bard. We seem to do pretty well, although we do get too dependant on items.

[daggaz]

lack of fly/teleport etc just makes your life as DM easier.

[Frosty]

Excellent quote. all you need in there is a Decisive Strike Monk and a Stalwart Sorcerer.. and you would be all PHBII. :smallsmile:

Stalwart Sorcerer is from PHB2? I thought thatw as Metamagic Specialist?

[Telonius]

The Beguiler is going to be the tricky one to manage. They have a very difficult time against unintelligent or mindless foes. They're not exactly a built-in party face, either, since the spells are Int-based.

[Frosty]

Int based means the Beguiler will have like 4 or 5 less in terms of total bonus on the skill check. Not exactly earth shattering given the amount of Synergies that Diplomacy gets.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Looks nice, should be fun to play and should work in most games unless there will be a lot of undead.

Couple of Belts of Healing will probably be nice even with the Dragon Shaman healing aura to 50%..

[leperkhaun]

hmmm, i agree that healing could be an issue, but the beguiler should pick up UMD and the party throw together money to get wands/staffs/scrolls for that.

Just remember that it might be good to throw an encounter or two at them where they are going "darn this would be easy if we had a wizard" (so that its a challenge for them), but you should tailor your challenges towards what they can deal with.

[Frosty]

So healing is the biggest issue? Well, if they can get plenty of healing they can also use it offensively against undead...

[Nerd-o-rama]

You also can turn your Duskblade into a healer with Arcane Disciple (with the Healing domain), but that's really not the best use for the feat.

[Temp]

Honestly, there shouldn't be a problem. If the Dragon Shaman has a half-decent Charisma, you should be fine. You might drop a Wand of CLW on the party to be sure, but it probably won't be that big a deal.

[The Glyphstone]

You also can turn your Duskblade into a healer with Arcane Disciple (with the Healing domain), but that's really not the best use for the feat.

They'd actually be better off giving it to the Beguiler, since he knows all spells on his spell list automatically and can cast them spontaneously - and Arcane Disciple adds the selected spells to the character's spell list when it's a spontaneous caster.

[Keld Denar]

Yeah, giving Arcane Disciple (Healing) to the beguiler would help a bit, but this introduces a bit of MAD to the Beguiler. He's already gonna need high int, ok dex, ok con (always have at least ok con), and probably ok cha. Imposing having a wis of about 14-16 to get the most benefit from AD is kind of harsh. Unless he rolled amazing stats. In that case, beguiler would make an excellent backup healer.

And your allies won't be able to resist your heals when you hit them with a supise heal using cloaked casting. Mwa ha ha ha!....ummm.....uhhhh....yeah

[Frosty]

Well even without good wisdom, as long as the Beguiler is kept supplied Wands of Cure Critical wounds, they'll probably be ok right?

[Keld Denar]

Well even without good wisdom, as long as the Beguiler is kept supplied Wands of Cure Critical wounds, they'll probably be ok right?

For out-of-combat healing, Cure Light Wounds is more economical, with Lessor Vigor being the MOST economical of wands to use. But a Beguiler can UMD any wand he wants anyways, since ooc there is supposedly an arbitrarily long enough time to keep retrying failed UMD attempt. Having Arcane Disciple and actually CASTING the spells brings healing to the table as a renewable resource, which is a lot easier to spend.

The only time a wand of Cure Critical Wounds would ever be a viable use item would be if a large amount of healing was needed in combat, and it is USUALLY more benefitial to kill/maim/dismemeber/debuff the target(s) than it is to spend actions on mediocere healing.