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View Full Version : Help! PrC based on the Seven Deadly Sins



MagFlare
2007-11-19, 01:41 PM
Okay, so here's what I'm thinking: a seven-level prestige class, each level representing one of the Seven Deadly Sins. But as high-concept as it is, it's just not coming together for me mechanically - it seems to invariably end up as a heap of unrelated abilities. And what the hell do you do for, say, lust? Maybe one of you clever types could lend a hand here.

Ideas so far:
Limited to evil characters (natch)
Partial arcane caster progression (like the Pale Master and Eldritch Knight get), or possibly limited spellcasting from a specific list (like the Assassin and Blackguard get)
Sloth (causes enemies within a certain radius to fall asleep or be slowed, depending on HD)
Greed (transports an item from an enemy's possession into your grasp)
Envy (lets you adopt a single class feature belonging to an enemy)
Wrath (equivalent to a Barbarian's rage? or possibly lets you cause rage in others? heck, I dunno)

I've really got nothing for Pride, Lust, and Gluttony, and of course things like HD and weapon/armor proficiencies are all up in the air. Does this class sound interesting to you? Then help a brother out, man.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-19, 02:04 PM
Intriguing....

Master of Sin
Prerequisites:
Alignment: Any Evil
Spells: Must be able to cast a 5th level spells and at least one spell with the [evil] descriptor.
Special: You must have committed at seven serious sins such as murdering innocents, raping, stealing a large amount of money from the poor, etc.

Hit Die: 1d4
Class Skills:
Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).
Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Spells per Day

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Emanation of Sin (Pride)|

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|Emanation of Sin (Envy)|+1 Level of Existing Class

3rd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+3|Emanation of Sin (Wrath)|

4th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Emanation of Sin (Sloth)|+1 Level of Existing Class

5th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Emanation of Sin (Avarice)|

6th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|Emanation of Sin (Gluttony)|+1 Level of Existing Class

7th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|Emanation of Sin (Lust)|

[/table]


Emanation of Sin (Su): At 1st level, the Master of Sin gains an emanation that causes those within a 60ft radius of him to make a will save DC15 +class level +intelligence modifier or suffer an effect. This is usable 2/day per level.

Pride: At 1st level the Master of Sin can cause those who fail their saves to be affect as if by a Greater Heroism (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/heroismGreater.htm) spell at a caster level of 5 +your Master of Sin level.

Envy: At 2nd level the Master of Sin can cause those who fail their save to immediately attack the closest ally as they normally would attack an enemy.

Wrath: At 3rd level the Master of Sin can cause those who fail their save to enter a rage as a 1st level Barbarian. If the target has Barbarian levels, he instead enters a rage as normal though it does not count against his uses per day.

Sloth: At 4th level the Master of Sin can cause those who fail their save to become slowed for 2d6 rounds.

Avarice:

Gluttony: At 6th level, the Master of Sin can cause those who fail their save to become one size larger, gaining a +2 bonus to strength and a -2 penalty to dexterity. All their equipment increase in size as well. The targets stay this way for 10 minutes per class level.

Lust: At 7th level, the Master of Sin can cause those who fail their save to have their attitude move one step closer to fanatic.

What do you think?

Darkbane
2007-11-19, 02:15 PM
I'd try to organize things based on the magnitude of the sins. From least to greatest, the sins are:
Lust
Gluttony
Avarice (Greed)
Sloth
Wrath
Envy
Pride

Gluttony I could see as a size increase/enlarge person, or perhaps an HP stealing touch. Meh, I don't really have any ideas.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-19, 02:17 PM
I'd try to organize things based on the magnitude of the sins. From least to greatest, the sins are:
Lust
Gluttony
Avarice (Greed)
Sloth
Wrath
Envy
Pride

Gluttony I could see as a size increase/enlarge person, or perhaps an HP stealing touch. Meh, I don't really have any ideas.

Gah! First I got them mixed up and now I've got them backwards, I'll try to fix it. What do you think of my emanation idea? Some are beneficial while some are damaging.

Tyonisius
2007-11-19, 02:34 PM
Intriguing....

Master of Sin
Prerequisites:
Alignment: Any Evil

Hit Die: 1d4
Class Skills:
Class Skills
Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Spells per Day

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Emanation of Sin (Pride)|

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|Emanation of Sin (Envy)|+1 Level of Existing Class

3rd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+3|Emanation of Sin (Wrath)|

4th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Emanation of Sin (Sloth)|+1 Level of Existing Class

5th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Emanation of Sin (Avarice)|

6th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|Emanation of Sin (Gluttony)|+1 Level of Existing Class

7th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|Emanation of Sin (Lust)|

[/table]


Emanation of Sin (Su): At 1st level, the Master of Sin gains an emanation that causes those within a 60ft radius of him to make a will save DC15 +class level +intelligence modifier or suffer an effect. This is usable 2/day per level.

Pride:

Envy:

Wrath: At 3rd level the Master of Sin can cause those who fail their save to enter a rage as a 1st level Barbarian. If the target has Barbarian levels, he instead enters a rage as normal though it does not count against his uses per day.

Sloth: At 4th level the Master of Sin can cause those who fail their save to become slowed for 2d6 rounds.

Avarice:

Gluttony: At 6th level, the Master of Sin can cause those who fail their save to become one size larger, gaining a +2 bonus to strength and a -2 penalty to dexterity. All their equipment increase in size as well. The targets stay this way for 10 minutes per class level.

Lust: At 7th level, the Master of Sin can cause those who fail their save to have their attitude move one step closer to fanatic.

What do you think?

I think the idea behind this is really cool. I agree that the order you gain the emanations needs to be changed from most powerful to least. I'm working on another campaign design at the moment but when I have some free time I'll see if I can add anything. Looking good so far. I would probably change the spell progression or make the emanations much stronger as you go down the level progression. 4 Caster Levels is a good bit (you could change when they get them to make it only 3 lost) to lose, so the abilities need to make up for that. Just noticed the 2/day per level, which is nice and will make up for it if the emanations are strong enough.

Peace.

Hoorex
2007-11-19, 03:06 PM
It seems like it's supposed to be a support character, right? Duh. Anyway, maybe you could give him offensive options? Like with Wrath, maybe he could force people to attack the closest living thing? So there would be in-fighting between parties and what not? And maybe a cap-ability that allows you to use them all at once?

Pronounceable
2007-11-19, 03:15 PM
I think one prc for each one would be neater. So they wouldn't get a jumbled mess of disconnected abilities. But that'd be more work.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-19, 04:07 PM
I think one prc for each one would be neater. So they wouldn't get a jumbled mess of disconnected abilities. But that'd be more work.

Possibly, I'd say Devil's Advocate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63749) comes close to a Lust PrC, but I like the idea of having emanations to cause others to sin, how evil is that!?

They are now in order of least to greatest sin as determined by the Catholic Church. Though that capstone ability to use all at once seems like it would be interesting...except that some are beneficial and others are harmful.

And Tyonisius, the Lust emanation definitely makes up for lost caster levels (yes, it can make fanatics).

CthulhuM
2007-11-19, 06:11 PM
You could make the abilities less disconnected if you designed multiple prestige classes - not for different sins, but for different character types. A caster PrC, a fighter-type PrC and a skill/stealth oriented PRC. The sins are all broad enough that you should be able to find magic, combat and skill-oriented abilities that fit each of them.

EvilElitest
2007-11-19, 06:29 PM
I'd try to organize things based on the magnitude of the sins. From least to greatest, the sins are:
Lust
Gluttony
Avarice (Greed)
Sloth
Wrath
Envy
Pride

Gluttony I could see as a size increase/enlarge person, or perhaps an HP stealing touch. Meh, I don't really have any ideas.

Is that according to the texts? Because I though Lust was before envy because it was the orginal sin. Pride is the greatest sin, Envy is the the sin of Caine, Lust was the orginal sin. And i thought greed and sloth were higher, as sloth represented heresy and indulging in wanton pursuits, while greed was the material sin.
Gluttony
Wrath
Sloth,
Greed
Lust
Envy
Pride
isn't that correct
from,
EE
edit
I did a plot device based on this, i should rewrite that some time

Magnor Criol
2007-11-19, 07:12 PM
This class should definitely be able to cause others to sin, based on a failed Will save or something similar. The flavor of this class demands it: not only should this guy be a master of sin in himself, but he'd naturally want to spread that sin.

Plus, think of the BBEG implications. This guy would make a great subtly subversive menace, going through populations and causing chaos as people degenerate into sin-filled lives.

For spread of the sins, how about both an aura and a directed push?

Like, for each sin the MoS 'manifests', he can directly influence someone a number of times per day. When they do, that person has to succeed on a Will save of DCsomethingorother (probably involving the MoS' Cha bonus, class levels, or both) or succumb to that sin somehow. Not sure how that would look.

At higher levels, they gain the ability to manifest auras. When he gets the ability, he chooses one sin, and he can manifest an aura - 60 feet sound good? That's fairly standard for DnD auras - where people within it have to succeed on a Will save (lower than that of the directed push, since it's less concentrated, so to speak) or succumb to that sin. They'd get the ability multiple times, gaining a new sin to manifest each time.

This way, they both are able to focus on one person, for instance that irritating Paladin, and make them sin, and then once they get really good at this schtick they're able to start affecting communities of people. (With that fluff, though, perhaps the aura should be bigger...)


*snip snip* Lust was the orginal sin. *snip snip*
Lust wasn't the original sin; the original sin was man's - as in human, not as in male - refusal to obey God, and eating of the one fruit we were told not to. Pride might be the closest one to throw it into here (you could also make arguments for Envy and Greed), but it wasn't lust.
Though this is bordering on a religious / philosophical debate. We probably want to watch ourselves; this isn't the place for that.

TheGrimace
2007-11-19, 07:15 PM
can we also make one on the 7 holy virtues?

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-19, 07:46 PM
This class should definitely be able to cause others to sin, based on a failed Will save or something similar. The flavor of this class demands it: not only should this guy be a master of sin in himself, but he'd naturally want to spread that sin.

Plus, think of the BBEG implications. This guy would make a great subtly subversive menace, going through populations and causing chaos as people degenerate into sin-filled lives.

For spread of the sins, how about both an aura and a directed push?

Like, for each sin the MoS 'manifests', he can directly influence someone a number of times per day. When they do, that person has to succeed on a Will save of DCsomethingorother (probably involving the MoS' Cha bonus, class levels, or both) or succumb to that sin somehow. Not sure how that would look.

At higher levels, they gain the ability to manifest auras. When he gets the ability, he chooses one sin, and he can manifest an aura - 60 feet sound good? That's fairly standard for DnD auras - where people within it have to succeed on a Will save (lower than that of the directed push, since it's less concentrated, so to speak) or succumb to that sin. They'd get the ability multiple times, gaining a new sin to manifest each time.

This way, they both are able to focus on one person, for instance that irritating Paladin, and make them sin, and then once they get really good at this schtick they're able to start affecting communities of people. (With that fluff, though, perhaps the aura should be bigger...)

Actually, that's kind of what each emanation does. Wrath makes you rage and kill stuff, Envy makes you attack your ally, Lust makes you like the Master a lot more. Pride boosts yourself (you being the one effected). Gluttony, well, that one might need to be worked on. Sloth, you become slower. Now I need avarice....

As for the Holy Virtures, why not?

Darkbane
2007-11-19, 10:44 PM
For reference, the seven deadly sins and the seven saintly virtues, from least to greatest.

Lust--Chastity
Gluttony--Temperance
Avarice--Generosity
Sloth--Zeal
Wrath--Patience
Envy--Charity
Pride--Humility

Lust is generally explained as the least (at least, the explanation I've heard) because it is both purely physical and very closely linked to the continuance of the species--kind of a mitigating factor. Also, just tossing out ideas: an excess of each virtue is in and of itself bad. I'm imagining some crazy overzealous good guy taking these to the limit. (Although some of them are contradictory, like excess zeal and patience.)

ArmorArmadillo
2007-11-20, 12:25 AM
Is that according to the texts? Because I though Lust was before envy because it was the orginal sin. Pride is the greatest sin, Envy is the the sin of Caine, Lust was the orginal sin. And i thought greed and sloth were higher, as sloth represented heresy and indulging in wanton pursuits, while greed was the material sin.
Gluttony
Wrath
Sloth,
Greed
Lust
Envy
Pride
isn't that correct
from,
EE
edit
I did a plot device based on this, i should rewrite that some time
Lust is actually not the original sin, as it is generally accepted. It is pride.

Lust is considered the least of sins because it is an extension of natural impulses.

Moreover, Lust, Gluttony, and Greed come out of "Appetite" sins which are built from indulgence, sins primarily against the self.

Sloth and Wrath are more serious, because they are sins against the world around you.

Envy and Pride are sins of fraud, Envy being "simple" fraud, in which you are fraudulent in desire towards others, and pride being "complex" fraud in which you are fraudulent in desire towards your status in the cosmos.


(Based on a highly abbreviated approximation of Dante)

Mewtarthio
2007-11-20, 02:35 AM
Moreover, Lust, Gluttony, and Greed come out of "Appetite" sins which are built from indulgence, sins primarily against the self.

Sloth and Wrath are more serious, because they are sins against the world around you.

Envy and Pride are sins of fraud, Envy being "simple" fraud, in which you are fraudulent in desire towards others, and pride being "complex" fraud in which you are fraudulent in desire towards your status in the cosmos.

Conveniently enough, this lets us expand the PrC to ten levels:

1: Lust
2: Gluttony
3: Greed
4: Miscellaneous ability (say, emanation)
5: Sloth
6: Wrath
7: Miscellaneous ability (improved emanation? Perhaps a "stronger" form of the past sins?)
8: Envy
9: Pride
10: Capstone ability

-----

The Master of Sin is a creature truly and utterly consumed by sins. He is often seen as a manipulator due to his ability to entice others to follow his path, though in actuality he is nothing more than a hollow pawn. Driven by sin, the Master of Sin despises all that is good, and seeks to pull down those around him out of sheer spite.

Entice to Sin (Su)

The Master of Sin has the power to convince others to give in to their baser natures. He may, as a standard action, target a single creature within sixty feet and speak words of darkness directly to that creature's soul. The target must be able to hear and understand the Master of Sin to be affected. All sins allow a Will save (DC is cha-based) to resist temptation. A target that saves against a sin is immune to that particular sin for the next twenty-four hours. In general, a Master of Sin must wait 1d4+1 rounds between uses of a particular sin.

Unless otherwise noted, all sins are mind-affecting, sonic, language-dependant compulsions.

Lust
At first level, the Master of Sin gains the power of seduction. A target that fails its saving throw becomes charmed, as the spell, for the next eight hours. The Master of Sin may not have more than two plus class level victims under this effect at any one time, though he may dismiss the effect at will; additionally, if multiple people are under this effect at once, they treat each other as Hostile. This is a charm effect.

Gluttony
At second level, the Master of Sin can induce feelings of burning hunger within his victims. Those that fail their saving throws are dazed with intense hunger pangs for 1d4 rounds. Additionally, victims are compelled to consume food as soon as possible. Though they won't do anything obviously suicidal, nor will they do anything truly idiotic such as abandoning their comrades in a fierce battle to locate the nearest tavern, they will acquire an edible substance as soon as it is reasonable. Food eaten during the duration does nothing to satisfy the magically-induced hunger, and the victims will continue to eat profusely, even to the point of vomiting and eating more, until the duration lapses. This latter effect lasts for 1 hour per level.

Greed
At third level, the Master of Sin is capable of pinpointing material desires and enhancing them. If a target fails the saving throw, the Master of Sin learns their current most immediate material desire, as though by the mind probe power. He may, at his option, amplify this desire, effectively planting a lesser geas to acquire it as soon as possible. The subject will not do anything obviously suicidal, but will attempt to fulfill this desire directly and immediately, as though oblivious to everything else. Thus, a subject whose greed focuses on a trinket for sale at a market might attempt to steal the object or pay a large sum of money for it. A subject prevented from fulfilling this desire becomes oddly obsessive over it. This effect lasts until the subject either acquires the object in question or is healed by remove curse.

Sloth
At fifth level, the Master of Sin can sap away the desire to act. The target must succeed on a Will saving throw or be slowed for one minute. Even on a successful saving throw, the victim takes a -1 penalty to all attacks, saves, and ability or skill checks for the duration. If used outside of combat or during a suprise round, the subject additionally takes -3 to initiative (-1 on a successful save).

Wrath
At sixth level, the Master of Sin has the power to induce a horrible rage in his victims. Those who fail their saves fly into a Rage, as the Barbarian class feature. They also lose control completely, attacking the nearest creature they are aware of, even smashing inanimate objects if there is nothing left to destroy. The Master of Sin may attempt to direct this rage towards a certain target: He and the victim make opposed Charisma checks and, if the Master of Sin wins, the victim will consider the designated target thirty feet closer for purposes of choosing creatures to attack and will attack the designated target in case of ties. The opposed checks must be repeated each round there is a more appropriate target available, but the subject gains a cumulative +2 bonus every round of the rage, and the rage cannot be redirected if the Master of Sin fails once. The rage lasts a number of rounds equal to one-quarter the Master of Sin's class level plus his Charisma modifier.

Envy
At eighth level, the Master of Sin can poison minds with covetous thoughts. On a failed Will save, the subject hates one specific individual specified by the Master of Sin. The subject will do anything to bring down the object of hate, including actions detrimental to the subject. The subject obsessively plots and schemes, using whatever resources are available to achieve this goal. These dark desires can only be undone by remove curse, though protection from evil suppresses them. Unlike other sins, Envy can only be used once per day.

Pride
At ninth level, the Master of Sin gains the deadliest power of all: The power to make a being value itself above all other life. Nonevil creatures have a +2 bonus on the saving throw, and Good creatures a +5, but failure is devastating. On a failed saving throw, the subject's alignment changes to Neutral Evil, and the subject loses the capacity to care about other beings. All friends, companions, and even family are reduced to mere tools in the subject's mind, and such a creature will do whatever is necessary to better his own position. Protection from evil can prevent the transformation from occuring in the first place, but cannot suppress it once it's taken hold. Only effects on the order of limited wish, wish, and miracle can undo the effect. Unlike other sins, Pride can only be used once per week.

Emanation of Corruption (Su)

At fourth level, a Master of Sin gains the ability to corrupt all those near him. Once per day, for one minute, he may grant himself an emanation that bestows the effects of a sin on anyone within sixty feet. These creatures gain a +5 bonus on their saving throws to resist temptation. Furthermore, all durations are halved, and no sin so implanted can last longer than 1d10x10 minutes (roll separately for each creature). Furthermore, the Master of Sin cannot specify the effects of these sins in any way; they simply occur (so he cannot attempt to specify a target with the Wrath sin, nor can he opt out of amplifying Greed). Envy is an exception: He may still specify the object of hate for this sin. A side effect of this is that he cannot exclude allies from the effect. A successful saving throw against such sins still renders the user immune to that sin as normal. The cooldown counter between uses of a sin begins counting from the conclusion of this ability.

At seventh level, the Master of Sin may use this emanation three times per day, specifying a new sin each time.

--------

Hm... Needs a sufficiently cool capstone...

MagFlare
2007-11-20, 08:56 AM
These are almost too good. Fine idea with the emanations, Tartarus - that resolved the "pile of random class features with exactly zero synergy" problem, although I'm not sure about a.) making some of the sins beneficial (!) and b.) making those beneficial sins occur when you fail a saving throw.

And Mewtarthio - Jesus. That's impressive. If you're struggling for a capstone, how's about something like this:

Plague of Sin
If sin is a disease, the Master of Sin is a sewer rat. Once per week, the Master of Sin may infect an enemy with Plague of Sin as a melee touch attack. (If the attack misses, the Master of Sin still uses up the attempt for that day.) The victim receives a Will saving throw of 15 plus the Master of Sin's Charisma bonus to resist contracting the disease. The disease has an incubation period of one hour, during which time the victim is highly contagious and able to pass the Plague of Sin onto others (who receive a similar saving throw to avoid becoming infected). After the incubation period is up, the victim suffers the effects of one of the above sins. (Roll 1d8: 1 = Lust, 2 = Gluttony, 3 = Greed, 4 = Sloth, 5 = Wrath, 6 = Envy, 7 = Pride, 8 = roll again.) Each day the victim is entitled to a new saving throw; as with most diseases, the infection lasts until the victim makes two consecutive saving throws, whereupon the victim loses all effects of the disease.

Skelengar
2007-11-20, 09:13 AM
Perhaps instead of just rolling again for 8 because there's only 7 sins, you roll twice on 8 so they are affected by 2 sins.

I'm assuming that when you roll again the next day, the result replaces the previous one.

Darkbane
2007-11-20, 10:59 AM
I kind of like expanding it to a ten-level PrC; Plague of Sin is a nice ability for NPCs and I think starting as a single-target and eventually expanding to an emanation works well. You could make some pretty horrific NPCs out of this class; has anyone read Neil Gaiman's Sandman?

Mewtarthio
2007-11-20, 11:00 AM
And Mewtarthio - Jesus. That's impressive. If you're struggling for a capstone, how's about something like this:

Plague of Sin
If sin is a disease, the Master of Sin is a sewer rat. Once per week, the Master of Sin may infect an enemy with Plague of Sin as a melee touch attack. (If the attack misses, the Master of Sin still uses up the attempt for that day.) The victim receives a Will saving throw of 15 plus the Master of Sin's Charisma bonus to resist contracting the disease. The disease has an incubation period of one hour, during which time the victim is highly contagious and able to pass the Plague of Sin onto others (who receive a similar saving throw to avoid becoming infected). After the incubation period is up, the victim suffers the effects of one of the above sins. (Roll 1d8: 1 = Lust, 2 = Gluttony, 3 = Greed, 4 = Sloth, 5 = Wrath, 6 = Envy, 7 = Pride, 8 = roll again.) Each day the victim is entitled to a new saving throw; as with most diseases, the infection lasts until the victim makes two consecutive saving throws, whereupon the victim loses all effects of the disease.

Thanks. I like that one, actually. I was picturing something that could corrupt the masses, but couldn't nail down anything specific.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-20, 11:02 AM
It looks like you guys have taken over from my lead and choose to take it in a different direction, I'll just back out now.

Hoorex
2007-11-20, 11:30 AM
What are the Pre-reqs? Just any evil? You know, I've seen this idea come up a bunch of times, but I think this is the only time where anything came out of it. Also, can the plague of sin be given more subtly? Or does it have to be an attack?

EvilElitest
2007-11-20, 07:33 PM
Why is lust called the orginal sin then? And wouldn't greed be a greater sin, i mean it is the material sin? But i haven't read the inferno for a while
from
EE

Dullyanna
2007-11-20, 10:22 PM
I personally see the class as a more devious variant of the Blackguard, as opposed to a spellcasting PrC. That way, it gives martial classes something a little different (Most abilities could already be mimicked by any spellcaster). Also, the sin-based PrC should revolve around debuffs, while it's virtous counterpart should focus on buffing (Preferrably stuff that doesn't closely resemble the auras of other classes).

Vuzzmop
2007-11-21, 12:26 AM
Why is lust called the orginal sin then? And wouldn't greed be a greater sin, i mean it is the material sin? But i haven't read the inferno for a while
from
EE


Wasn't the original sin something to do with lucifer's pride? Getting into religion though, so, great work, I may use it soon!

Mewtarthio
2007-11-21, 12:53 AM
What are the Pre-reqs? Just any evil?

That, I'm not so sure about. Evil alignment's obvious, but I'm not sure what the limiting factor should be. BAB +6 (with token ranks of Knowledge (religion))? Knowledge (religion) 10 ranks?